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Author Topic: Re: Flight 19  (Read 18880 times)

Tim Gard

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2014, 06:32:23 AM »

The located Avenger is recovered from the sea floor.

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Monty Fowler

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2014, 08:26:48 AM »

*pinkie claps for the dedication needed to recover an aircraft from the seafloor* They found an Avenger. Nothing in that short film clip says it is one of the Avengers. Seeing isn't, as TIGHAR has learned over the decades, isn't always believing.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Jeff Lange

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2014, 09:57:15 AM »

As was mentioned before- gear down and locked says to me that this was most likely a training flight that bolted/missed the cables upon landing and went over the side of a carrier. Not much chance of regaining flight in those planes in that situation.
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JNev

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2014, 10:24:32 AM »

Seems like there was a story about something like that - or perhaps even some Avengers that were dumped off the coast.  Story needs chasing - answer is out there.

I think the Flight 19 birds remain unfound.
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Tim Gard

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2014, 10:42:50 AM »

*pinkie claps for the dedication needed to recover an aircraft from the seafloor* They found an Avenger. Nothing in that short film clip says it is one of the Avengers. Seeing isn't, as TIGHAR has learned over the decades, isn't always believing.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

So far the parallels with TIGHAR are exact.
They go back to the radio logs, review navigation charts, make a sea floor investigation and videos about same. I think I even recognise one of the guys from Finding Amelia's "it's a rock" scene.

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2014, 10:47:27 AM »

I think the Flight 19 birds remain unfound.

As do hundreds of other wartime training losses.  People obsess about these 5 aircraft because they got gathered up in the Bermuda Triangle nonsense and even made a cameo appearance in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.  Would finding Flight 19 dissuade those who believe in the Bermuda Triangle?  Will finding NR16020 dissuade the Japanese Capture Crowd? 
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Tim Gard

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2014, 10:55:53 AM »

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Monty Fowler

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2014, 11:58:07 AM »

National Geographic has a YouTube video about the Bermuda Triangle too ... why not throw that in the mix as well? Quasar's quoted in that one as well, so that must make it the officially correct answer, right? Right???

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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JNev

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2014, 01:01:45 PM »

I think the Flight 19 birds remain unfound.

As do hundreds of other wartime training losses.  People obsess about these 5 aircraft because they got gathered up in the Bermuda Triangle nonsense and even made a cameo appearance in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.  Would finding Flight 19 dissuade those who believe in the Bermuda Triangle?  Will finding NR16020 dissuade the Japanese Capture Crowd?

Good points, Ric.  My dad had a friend in WWII - CBI theatre, who disappeared one day - so far forever, in a P38 Lightning-based photo ship (F-4 or F-5, not sure which at moment).  Capt. Robert de Vlieg is memorialized at the American cemetery in Manila, but he and his lost ship have, so far, never been found.  I'm sure he's more important in my dad's memory than Flight 19 would be, although he nor any of us would ever slight a war loss.

Good perspective, thanks.
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JNev

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2014, 04:21:09 PM »

I had forgotten that a PBM Mariner was lost looking for the lost flight that day, 13 souls lost.

Further to pursuit of the 5 lost Avengers, read what Graham Hawkes now thinks about what he found earlier and believed was not related to Flight 19 -

Quote
They also, he says now, solved one of the most enduring riddles of the Bermuda Triangle. In May 1991, they discovered five Grumman Avenger fighter-bombers lying in a group on the ocean floor. At the time, the discovery caused a media frenzy. Hawkes was questioned by a dockside scrum of cameramen and interviewers who all wanted to know if the planes were those of Flight 19, which took off from Fort Lauderdale on a perfectly clear day in 1945 and vanished without a trace somewhere over the Atlantic – one of the legendary disappearances in the Bermuda Triangle. Then, as quickly as it had started, the sensation evaporated when Hawkes announced that further investigation revealed that the planes' tail numbers did not match those of the long-lost flight, implying that he believed the five planes must have crashed separately.
Hawkes has since changed his story. Now he says both he (because his investors didn't want to waste valuable time on an investigation) and the Pentagon (because they had more important things to worry about) had an interest in making the story go away. He admits that while he didn't find conclusive evidence that the planes were the same group that went missing in 1945, he consulted a statistician to establish the probability that they were not. "He said, 'You've got Flight 19,' " Hawkes says.


Read more: http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/graham-hawkes-and-the-race-to-the-bottom-of-the-sea-20140114?page=3#ixzz3EYeEFPf1
Follow us: @mensjournal on Twitter | MensJournal on Facebook

One never knows until this is re-visited...
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« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 04:31:39 PM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Tim Gard

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2014, 08:50:40 PM »

I hold a special admiration for people like Jon and Ric, best expressed by Teddy Roosevelt:

β€œIt is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”


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JNev

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2014, 09:19:36 PM »

Well said by TR and aptly quoted here, Tim - it is hard to beat those who insist on moving the game forward, whether one fully agrees or likes the risk or not.  Without that, nothing happens.
- Jeff Neville

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Monty Fowler

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2014, 12:24:15 PM »

Some additional information about the Myhre Avenger: http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7f.htm

"Two examples include a TBF Avenger recovered off the Florida coast in a mistaken belief it was from the lost Flight 19 ..."

This also illustrates what can happen if you don't have the paperwork in order. TIGHAR does. There won't be any problems about ownership or whatnot when Niku VIII scores next year.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Monty Fowler

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2014, 02:54:00 PM »

And something else fairly recent, related to Myhre and another Flight 19 sleuth that he collaborated with: http://www.aeroquest.org/tbm-3-avenger-buno53118.html

It was a TBM-3, same model as Taylor's, it crashed in the Everglades, the Navy had to record of any other missing TBM-3s, so that must be the one, right?

Well ... no. It's usually not a good idea to try and force the evidence to fit the available facts. Gotta' admire their doggedness, though.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

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JNev

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Re: Flight 19
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2014, 04:52:55 PM »

I was about to say "it would be nice if the navy would clean these things up at the time so we wouldn't have all the confusion later" - and then it dawned on me that it is actually kind of cool irony that a 'new' mystery emerged from a forgotten wreck to be solved, simply because they didn't.  Had this not happened, I'd not know of that airman who lost his life and his story.  It is as if the fates wanted a later generation to know of him and appreciate him, RIP.
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