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Brad Beeching

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Norwich City Question
« on: March 08, 2011, 04:16:08 PM »

Is there a chart or map of the island that shows the paths or locations where the crew of the Norwich City made camp(s)? I was just wondering if the graves of the crewmembers who were buried had been located? If so, where is that in relation to the "Seven Site" and could there be any relationship between the two?

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Brad

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Ricker H Jones

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2011, 05:50:10 PM »


There is no record indicating where the graves of the three buried crewman were.  We can only speculate that they were on Nutiran in the vicinity of the activity which followed the stranding of the Norwich City.

The three crewmen who were buried on the island were:  1) J.L Jones, the well liked steward, 2) the fireman who was trapped under the lifeboat and drowned, and 3) J.J. Leslie, the ship’s carpenter.  The burials of the Steward and the Fireman were on the day following the stranding so most likely they occurred on Nutiran, though the Board of Trade testimony does not spell this out.   The body of the ship’s carpenter was found by the Captain Hamer in the days following, but because Hamer only left Nutiran via the lagoon on the native surfboat, the Carpenter too, most likely was found and buried on Nutiran.

 Board of Trade testimony states:

“The steward's body was washed up about half an hour after we landed. We tried artificial respiration for about an hour but without result. The next body was an Arab who was under the upturned boat and we got him out in the evening. Later on during our stay on the Island the Carpenter's body was found, by the Capt. and 3rd Mate. These bodies were buried on the island. No further bodies were washed up till the time of our leaving.” (LOTT)
“The steward, poor chap, was the most unfortunate of all. He had practically reached safety when he collapsed and was drowned before anyone could give him assistance. He was brought up on the beach, artificial respiration was tried for about an hour without avail, and we were all reluctant to give up. He was a very popular fellow and everyone expressed their sympathy for his relatives in their sad bereavement. Later we all paid him our last respects, gave him a Christian burial and placed a cross of coral at his head.” (HAMER)

Rick
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2011, 04:54:59 AM »

Is there a chart or map of the island that shows the paths or locations where the crew of the Norwich City made camp(s)? I was just wondering if the graves of the crewmembers who were buried had been located? If so, where is that in relation to the "Seven Site" and could there be any relationship between the two?

Gums



This Wiki page gives some explanation of the location of camps Norwich City Survivors

As to whether a body of a crew man could fetch up at the seven site or even a survivor you would have to ask the following.  How could a body get washed up onto a raised area of the island along with the associated items that Gallagher found (not to mention TIGHAR).

Would a survivor not see the rescue ships and make their way to the rescue area.
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2011, 08:42:47 AM »

I was just wondering if the graves of the crewmembers who were buried had been located? If so, where is that in relation to the "Seven Site" and could there be any relationship between the two?

Gums



As far as I am aware the graves of the 3 bodies recovered from the shipwreck havn't been found. This article may help you with you question The Carpenters Daughter

My own 'guess' would be that the action of waves and storms has obliterated the remains of the graves accounting for the 2nd set of bones story.
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Brad Beeching

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2011, 10:29:38 AM »

 :-\  I guess I didn't ask my question clearly. What I was trying to understand was the location of the Norwich City survivors camps vs the Seven Site and any possible relationship that could possibly exist between the two.

I was wondering if the Norwich survivors could have moved around to that end of the island and have accounted for any of the fire features found around the seven site. If I understood correctly, there were more than 20 people waiting for rescue, which in my mind implies multiple fires while they tried to make themselves comfortable during the wait.

Thanks all!

Gums
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Dan Swift

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2011, 10:59:24 AM »

Yes, good question.  When I read such excerpts as below, it makes one wonder about the 7 site being the Norwich City survivors site waiting to be picked up.  Surf too rough on the NW side.  Please comment and clarify for me.   Thanks!  Further down the the orginal 1 1/2 miles Southeast of the Norwich....

"However, the boat returned to shore unable to bring the provisions requested by Captain Hamer. Now somewhat farther south than the original 1½ miles from the wreck, the native crew stayed ashore that night. Captain Hamer’s statement described the evening spent at this rescue site: “The natives, however, were just beginning to get warmed up; they came back with what they considered a sumptuous meal, a few crabs as big as a plate and a sea bird or two, well pleased with themselves – in fact they were enjoying the outing. “A little matter of no matches, flint or steel didn’t worry them in the least. In less than half an hour we had a roaring fire, the natives making it by rubbing two pieces of dry stick together and setting fire to some fibre and dead cocoanut leaves. We made beds of leaves and settled down for the night.” [15] This may have been where Henry E. “Harry” Maude and Cadet Officer Eric Bevington saw remnants of a bivouac mentioned in his journal entry of October 13, 1937, “We found many interesting things including signs of previous habitation.” [16] "
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2011, 11:33:50 AM »

:-\  I guess I didn't ask my question clearly. What I was trying to understand was the location of the Norwich City survivors camps vs the Seven Site and any possible relationship that could possibly exist between the two.

There is a map of the survivors' camps in the Norwich City Article.

There are several maps of where the Seven Site is.

Look carefully at the two articles and perhaps you'll see the differences in the locations.

Oh, heck.  Asking people to click on links and read articles is hard work.  Here are the pictures I'm talking about.



LTM,

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Chris Johnson

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2011, 11:57:56 AM »

To be fare I lead them to a link specific to the rescure/camps that didn't have that usefull map in it.
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Dan Swift

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2011, 12:47:17 PM »

Thanks Marty!  I hope you see my confusion as that rescue site is cleary the southwest, not "southeast" of the Island as described (or I interpreted) in the article.   And it is definitely not on the "leeward side" either.  So, the article article's statement alone were very misleading (or at least confusing).  That location is southeast of the Norwich City, but not of the Island.  I get it.....I think. 
The article also discusses traveling the "full length of the lagoon" to get to the resue site.  Or did I mis-read that? 

Thanks much for clearing this up. 
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2011, 01:25:17 PM »

Thanks Marty!  I hope you see my confusion as that rescue site is clearly the southwest, not "southeast" of the Island as described (or I interpreted) in the article. 

And it is definitely not on the "leeward side" either.  So, the article article's statement alone were very misleading (or at least confusing).  That location is southeast of the Norwich City, but not of the Island.  I get it.....I think. 

I have tried in vain to get a grip on what various people mean by the "southwest" or "southeast" parts of the island.

So far as I know, no one has issued a dictionary for those terms.  I drew these pictures months ago, but am not satisfied with either result. 

The first way divides the island into four quadrants oriented N-S and E-W, with the center of the compass rose more or less at the "center of mass" of the island:



The second way tilts the island so that the compass rose is no longer oriented N-S and E-W, but is on a psychological N-S/E-W orientation.  "Windward" would be in the imaginary "East" in this map and "leeward" would be in the "West"--at least, that would be the case if the prevailing winds are from the NE.  If a storm came up from the SW, the windward and leeward sides would be reversed, if I understand it correctly.



Quote
The article also discusses traveling the "full length of the lagoon" to get to the rescue site.  Or did I misread that? 

That sounds like a misreading to me.  Can you point to the offending line?
LTM,

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Brad Beeching

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2011, 02:05:53 PM »

 :) Thanks Marty! I looked all over the site for a map and just flat missed it...

So on the face of it, it looks as though any of the fire features at the seven site can most prob'ly be attributed to our castaway or the workers clearing for coconuts? Sure makes a person wonder what else was laying around that was never turned in to Galagher...

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Don Dollinger

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2011, 02:28:02 PM »

Quote
So on the face of it, it looks as though any of the fire features at the seven site can most prob'ly be attributed to our castaway or the workers clearing for coconuts?

Don't forget the possibility of attributing some of them to the Coasties from the Loran Station.  They did find spent shells there, so there is the assumption that some of the coasties did spend some time there for target practice if nothing else. 

LTM,

Don
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2011, 05:30:45 PM »

:) Thanks Marty!

You're welcome, Brad.

Quote
I looked all over the site for a map and just flat missed it...

FWIW, I have a random collection of Niku maps on the wiki.  Some may be outdated.

Quote
So on the face of it, it looks as though any of the fire features at the seven site can most prob'ly be attributed to our castaway or the workers clearing for coconuts? Sure makes a person wonder what else was laying around that was never turned in to Gallagher...

Your guess is as good as anybody's about who might have visited the Seven Site: the castaway, islanders at work or hunting turtles or birds or honeymooning, Coasties, the post WW II radar folks (I'm drawing a blank on their unit name), illicit visitors from yachts, crab poachers, fishermen.
LTM,

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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2011, 05:26:28 PM »

I have tried in vain to get a grip on what various people mean by the "southwest" or "southeast" parts of the island. 
Today I was reading Volume 12 Issue #2/3 (1996) of TIGHAR Tracks (those 48 pages have a lot of very interesting info from 15 years ago), and found the very interesting map that was drawn in 1935 and published in 1939 (according to the annotation:  "Based on a 1935 survey, this map was not publicly available until 1939.").  I'm struck that whoever created that map nicely labeled the NW, NE, SE, and SW points of Niku for us, and Marty's first effort to assign directions on Niku matches up quite nicely with that.

Taking a hint from another recent post, I'll try to slip in a snapshot of that 1935 sketch map into this post in case you don't want to stop now and peruse the aforementioned issue of TIGHAR Tracks.  (Click on the map to enlarge it.)
LTM,

Bruce
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« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 06:00:59 PM by Bruce Thomas »
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Norwich City Question
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2011, 06:05:23 PM »

Today I was reading Volume 12 Issue #2/3 (1996) of TIGHAR Tracks (those 48 pages have a lot of very interesting info from 15 years ago), and found the very interesting map that was drawn in 1935 and published in 1939 (according to the annotation:  "Based on a 1935 survey, this map was not publicly available until 1939.").  I'm struck that whoever created that map nicely labeled the NW, NE, SE, and SW points of Niku for us, and Marty's first effort to assign directions on Niku matches up quite nicely with that.

Nice find--most helpful.  That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.  It pretty clearly rules out the "tilted map." Thanks!
LTM,

           Marty
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« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 06:06:57 PM by moleski »
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