Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 34 35 [36] 37 38 39   Go Down

Author Topic: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream  (Read 425069 times)

Joe Cerniglia

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 278
  • Niku in a rainstorm
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #525 on: February 22, 2013, 08:06:25 AM »

Logged

John Kada

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #527 on: February 22, 2013, 11:05:12 PM »

A few months back there was a post on this thread briefly reporting mercury analysis results obtained for Hazel Atlas jar. I haven’t seen a more detailed discussion of this analysis since then—how exactly the analyses were done, what the analysis results were, what sort of quality measures were taken to assess the quality of the analysis work done by lab, whether there is any data on mercury in similar jars that did not contain a mercury-laden product, whether possibility of contamination of the jar after collection was considered, etc.  If this has all been discussed somewhere and I’ve missed it, I’d appreciate it greatly if someone could kindly point me toward this information. Perhaps this will be covered in the upcoming issue of Tighar Tracks?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 11:26:23 PM by John Kada »
Logged

Joe Cerniglia

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 278
  • Niku in a rainstorm
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #528 on: February 23, 2013, 07:53:26 AM »

The lab tests and our analysis of them are still in process.  We are about halfway through the tests we want to run and then there will be the process of interpreting what it all means.  It's a little bit like writing a graduate level thesis.  I have chosen not to report the results in installments to the forum (and thus to the general public as well) for several reasons:

1) The experiments are a conjoined set and results from ones in the future may inform, amplify, or even overturn what we already have learned.
2) Each experiment can take 3-4 weeks just to see results come back.
3) The forum can be a bit acrimonious at times, and I'd rather hold off on sounding certain in my arguments until I am more certain in my arguments.
4) There is a team of people who are working with me, and their thoughts need to have ample time to crystallize and be heard.

We're not exactly sure in what format we will present the results when they are ready, but we know we will be doing something with them.  I am keeping the EPAC informed of our efforts in monthly reports.  They provide not only intellectual guidance but the financial support that is the lifeblood of any such research.  I am in contact almost daily with the immediate team who are designing the experiments and helping to interpret the results. 

In the meantime, I am listening attentively to the comments and suggestions that are written here and providing answers where I can and also joining in on the jar discussion.  There have been occasions, in the case of the experiments with Skat insect repellent, for example, when experiments have been prompted by this forum.  In this and any other such cases, I have posted the lab results here directly for all to see, and I will continue to do this.

Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078 ECR

 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 08:34:54 AM by Joe Cerniglia »
Logged

John Kada

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #529 on: February 23, 2013, 08:52:13 AM »

The lab tests and our analysis of them are still in process.  We are about halfway through the tests we want to run and then there will be the process of interpreting what it all means.  It's a little bit like writing a graduate level thesis.

Then isn't a bit premature to conclude that the jar held a mercury-rich substance?
Logged

Randy Conrad

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 313
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #530 on: February 23, 2013, 09:37:14 AM »

I was sitting in the living room the other day and my girlfriend had all her cosmetics and dippy-do effects laying around. She has these in one location for when she goes to work in the morning. I made the comment that it looked like a campsite!!! As I thought bout this...it made me think bout Amelia and the effects she might have had on her if she indeed landed on Niku. First of all, I believe Joe that we are looking at an ointment jar and not so much a cream jar. The reason I say this is because if you were going on a trip for just a few days...would you take a big jar or a travel jar with you. Most women might agree with me, that a small jar like the jar found on the island is not even close enough to supplement the needs for facial cream. Now, I would agree however, that if someone carried with them an ointment...a substance like that of hydrocortizone...then that is feasible and possible. However, like so many I am baffled with the reality that this artifact jar is clear and not that of milk glass. Like you, I have been searching for weeks on end, and have come up with nothing!!! I am curious to see why Dr. Berry had two different sets of freckle cream in his ad. The one you posted several weeks ago. Its too bad they never had things done with KODAK back then. Anyway, I truly believe that we are looking at a substance that is made up of a component that you just can't dip your fingers into...but you run your finger across just to get a small amount that will last for awhile. Kinda of like dr. bakers salve. Whatever this jar is...its of great importance...because from all the ads people have posted...wouldn't you all agree that if Amelia did carry a jar of Freckle cream...then a milk glass jar should be there. But, that doesn't wipe out the possiblity that this is a unique jar of ointment. Anyway, would love to hear your insights into this! Thanks!!!
Logged

Joe Cerniglia

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 278
  • Niku in a rainstorm
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #531 on: February 23, 2013, 10:03:05 AM »

The lab tests and our analysis of them are still in process.  We are about halfway through the tests we want to run and then there will be the process of interpreting what it all means.  It's a little bit like writing a graduate level thesis.

Then isn't a bit premature to conclude that the jar held a mercury-rich substance?

Yes.  If I said something that led you to think I had "concluded" that, I apologize.  In most if not all of the remarks I've made I have been extremely careful to say more work remained and that nothing has been concluded.   We think the jar contained a mercury-bearing substance but until we've run every control we can think of, it would be mistaken to say we have concluded that.

On one occasion, however, in the heat of battle, my enthusiasm did cause me to say more than I knew, before all possible tests had been run.  Here is that remark:

"We have found mercury in quantity sufficient to have been considered part of the original contents on the inside of the jar."

A remark such as that one might better have been reserved until all the work was completed, and even then it would need to be qualified against other tests.  The quantity found, after all, is only one variable from only one experiment.  The fault for that remark is mine, not TIGHAR's.  I'm not perfect and I make mistakes, but when I do, I admit them and move on.  Is this sufficient expiation, Mr. Kada?

Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078 ECR
Logged

Randy Conrad

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 313
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #532 on: February 23, 2013, 12:17:22 PM »

I ran across this ad this afternoon from The Evening Herald of Klamath Falls, Oregon on March 24, 1921. Found it very interesting as it gave a list of other manufacturer's of freckle cream and vanishing cream during this time frame. Curious, to know why Dr. Berry's freckle ointment is the only one listed as ointment and not freckle cream.
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #533 on: February 23, 2013, 12:23:21 PM »

We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged

Alan Harris

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #534 on: February 23, 2013, 02:16:11 PM »

However, like so many I am baffled with the reality that this artifact jar is clear and not that of milk glass. Like you, I have been searching for weeks on end, and have come up with nothing!!!

...wouldn't you all agree that if Amelia did carry a jar of Freckle cream...then a milk glass jar should be there.

I think Randy is making a point worth remembering here.  We've been seeing some opaque white and other colors posted lately (Velvetina is light brown, I think) and I'm not sure what the relevance is.

Re Platonite, I'm no expert but what I've seen on the web indicates that it too was always opaque and usually in bright colors, and was used in dinnerware/tableware and not the utility products like cosmetic jars.  Also it seems not to have been produced in large quantity until the '40's.
Logged

Dan Kelly

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #535 on: February 23, 2013, 03:20:48 PM »


On one occasion, however, in the heat of battle, my enthusiasm did cause me to say more than I knew, before all possible tests had been run.  Here is that remark:

"We have found mercury in quantity sufficient to have been considered part of the original contents on the inside of the jar."

A remark such as that one might better have been reserved until all the work was completed, and even then it would need to be qualified against other tests.  The quantity found, after all, is only one variable from only one experiment.  The fault for that remark is mine, not TIGHAR's.  I'm not perfect and I make mistakes, but when I do, I admit them and move on.  Is this sufficient expiation, Mr. Kada?

Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078 ECR

I was idling wondering Mr Cerniglia if basics exclusion tests have been done to establish if there is a natural contamination of mercuric compounds in the soil and other naturally occurring items near where the jar fragments were found (including avian faunal remains).   
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 04:36:08 PM by Dan Kelly »
Logged

Joe Cerniglia

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 278
  • Niku in a rainstorm
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #536 on: February 23, 2013, 04:46:45 PM »

I was idling wondering Mr Cerniglia if basics exclusion tests have been done to establish if there is a natural contamination of mercuric compounds in the soil and other naturally occurring items near where the jar fragments were found.   

You are in good company in your suggestion. The lead scientist at the lab has also suggested this as a possible experiment. The problem is that there isn't much of what one would typically call "soil" at the Seven Site.  If you read the link in that last sentence, it says under "Site Structure," that "The ridge on which the Seven Site lies is composed of coral rubble thrown up by wave action and stabilized by vegetation. There is little soil accumulation, though screening does produce a small amount of humic material."

Here's what it looks like.

It's not exactly the type of material in which one would imagine deposits of mercury from wind or rain adhering.  The samples Dr. King has told me about are of three types: "a) coral rubble and b) some fine-grained material, probably largely ash, from the SL (slope) feature, and (c) a 'soil' area near the SE corner of the 'site' -- that is, of the area we've investigated."

We may want to test the coral for mercury eventually, but I decided if we do it, it should be in a later round of testing.  One important control we want to do in this first round is to test another glass shard that is not from that jar to see what types of mercury readings we obtain.

Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078 ECR


Logged

Dan Kelly

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #537 on: February 23, 2013, 05:33:22 PM »

I was idling wondering Mr Cerniglia if basics exclusion tests have been done to establish if there is a natural contamination of mercuric compounds in the soil and other naturally occurring items near where the jar fragments were found.   

You are in good company in your suggestion. The lead scientist at the lab has also suggested this as a possible experiment. The problem is that there isn't much of what one would typically call "soil" at the Seven Site.  If you read the link in that last sentence, it says under "Site Structure," that "The ridge on which the Seven Site lies is composed of coral rubble thrown up by wave action and stabilized by vegetation. There is little soil accumulation, though screening does produce a small amount of humic material."

Here's what it looks like.

It's not exactly the type of material in which one would imagine deposits of mercury from wind or rain adhering.  The samples Dr. King has told me about are of three types: "a) coral rubble and b) some fine-grained material, probably largely ash, from the SL (slope) feature, and (c) a 'soil' area near the SE corner of the 'site' -- that is, of the area we've investigated."

We may want to test the coral for mercury eventually, but I decided if we do it, it should be in a later round of testing.  One important control we want to do in this first round is to test another glass shard that is not from that jar to see what types of mercury readings we obtain.

Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078 ECR

Thank you Mr Cerniglia for your reply. No doubt you have considered that soil as we have referred to it covers a multitude of things. Fine grained coral mixed with the decayed remnants of bird, fish bones and shells etc. is the soil of the island and that which encourages the growth of the flora of the island. Compounds such as mercuric ones etc. are known to become concentrated in animals at the upper levels of the food chain due to their natural selection of prey that provides the best dietary intake against the effort to harvest these. So if there is naturally occurring mercuric content in the various animals that form the links in that food chain then the higher species in the chain will be ingesting greater concentrations of a compound like a mercuric one. It follows therefore that as these species suffer mortality in some form either as prey or simply dying then when their bones and flesh break down the trace elements and molecular compounds will be deposited in areas around where the decay occurs. Over times there will be a gradual increase in any molecular compounds like mercury compounds in what we call the soil of the island. Mercuric compounds are reasonably stable and could probably associated with minor flooding events or rainfall be transported to and deposited on otherwise mercuric free objects such as glass etc. So while I think that your work on the classification and study of the availability of the various unguent containers that might fit the profile of the glass fragments is first class, I still wonder about the aforementioned natural contamination of these fragments in the environment of Nikumaroro especially as the species on land would appear to represent the top predators in the food chain that leads from the sea to the land. Therefore I would suggest that soil sampling from various localities needs to be addressed - unless it has been done and this form of contamination has been previously ruled out.             
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 05:34:56 PM by Dan Kelly »
Logged

John Kada

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #538 on: February 23, 2013, 06:14:24 PM »

Hi All

Here is another product using similar jar

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-MARINELLO-Cosmetic-Milk-Glass-Face-Cream-Jar-Cosmetic-Vanity-/330876513905?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27%26meid%3D5802545352964045001%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D1011%26rk%3D3%26sd%3D190679115485%26



Also i have just been reading on this site http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/hazel-atlas-glass-company/ paragraph 6 caught my attention Platonite has this area been researched

my apologies if this has been talked about before

Thanks Richie


More information on Marinello products here.

Of particular note is the part that says:

"Soon her products were distributed in every state of the Union, in Canada, Mexico, South America, England, throughout continental Europe, in Russia, South Africa, Australia, China and Japan and on islands in both oceans."

Interesting!


« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 06:17:42 PM by John Kada »
Logged

Randy Conrad

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 313
Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #539 on: February 23, 2013, 07:02:23 PM »

With the latest post in regards to Hazel Atlas company...I'm really curious as to how the "fired-on" process is done in conjunction with Plutonite? I've seen over the years how glassblowers make glass bowls and stuff...but how do you fire-on a certain color? Educate me on this guys???
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 34 35 [36] 37 38 39   Go Up
 

Copyright 2018 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Powered by PHP