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Author Topic: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream  (Read 443601 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #510 on: February 17, 2013, 06:08:00 PM »

There was no introduction of a straw man in my reply as you are well aware. Your assertion that there was is because I simply pointed out that photos of bare-chested Coast Guard personnel is not evidence that all Coast Guard personnel were unconcerned about sunburn only that some were.

As Joe pointed out, we have never claimed that it is impossible that the jar is attributable to a Coastie.  How could we?  All we have said is that there is no evidence that any of the Coast Guard personnel used a product that came in such a jar.  Pointing out that there could have been sun-sensitive Coast Guardsman who didn't get his picture taken argues against a position we haven't taken. That's a straw man.

It is a small point but one that should be noted as this freckle cream jar has a great deal of TIGHAR's argument that Earhart landed on Nikumaroro riding on its tiny and shattered shoulders.

Oh please.  The jar gets a lot of attention because it's fascinating, but if a Coast Guard veteran came forward tomorrow with a photo of himself dobbing himself with Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream as a sunburn preventative the Niku Hypothesis wouldn't miss a beat. Conversely, if we found a picture of AE holding a jar of  Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream it still wouldn't prove that the jar on the island was hers. It's an object that seems to fit nicely into a jigsaw puzzle that has dozens of other pieces that fit together and appear to show a coherent and sensible picture.  Joe has busted his butt trying to pin this artifact down but he's gone as far as he has with it out of his own curiosity, not because of any urging from me.  Our senior archaeologist Tom King has supported his investigations with both professional and financial encouragement because archaeologists just love chasing minutia.  TIGHAR is blessed to have bulldogs like Joe who latch on to an artifact and don't let go until they've wrung every possible bit of information from it, but the jar is only important as an element in the larger picture of the Seven Site.  If we "lose" it, like we've lost so many other artifacts that we once thought might be attributable to Earhart, it would be disappointing but it would be no big deal. 
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #511 on: February 17, 2013, 06:31:49 PM »


Pointing out that there could have been sun-sensitive Coast Guardsman who didn't get his picture taken argues against a position we haven't taken. That's a straw man.


Thank you for your prompt reply Mr Gillespie - with respect I would suggest that you saying something is a straw man is simply no more than your opinion. However I think you will concede that so far in the long and detailed discussion of Dr Berry's Freckle Cream all that has been produced is a comprehensive knowledge of early to mid-20th century patent ointments rather than anything but the most tenuous link between Ms Earhart and those fragments of glass found on the island. As for the effects of its "loss" that is for TIGHAR, its supporters and the public to decide. As a member of the latter who has read the discussion I'm afraid that I find it quite unconvincing.

But credit where credit is due, Mr Cerniglia has done sterling work in his study of all things freckle cream - perhaps he should publish these in an appropriate publication.  I for one now know more about this product than I ever thought possible or necessary. :)

You will excuse the placing of this question here but I have quite forgotten where I asked it. I recall that in answer to some discussion of the tide data and water levels on the reef you said that Mr Brandenberg was preparing a new paper which answered the questions raised, I was wondering how that was progressing. As I understand it that these levels are vital to transmission times etc. of the post-loss radio messages. Thank you.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #512 on: February 17, 2013, 08:56:18 PM »

You will excuse the placing of this question here but I have quite forgotten where I asked it. I recall that in answer to some discussion of the tide data and water levels on the reef you said that Mr Brandenberg was preparing a new paper which answered the questions raised, I was wondering how that was progressing.

Thanks.  I've been meaning to answer that question but I too lost track of it.  The new issue of TIGHAR Tracks will include Bob Brandenburg's paper "Time and Tide."  It's a 12-page paper in 64-page journal. We're hoping it can go to the printer the end of this week.
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #513 on: February 18, 2013, 06:07:04 AM »

Quote from: Dan Kelly link=topic=261.msg23759#msg23759

But credit where credit is due, Mr Cerniglia has done sterling work in his study of all things freckle cream - perhaps he should publish these in an appropriate publication.  I for one now know more about this product than I ever thought possible or necessary. :)


Credit is premature since the lab is still working on all the tests we want to run. Nevertheless, in addition to Dr. Tom King, I want to point out that TIGHAR chemist Greg George is serving as an invaluable advisor in both setting up the experiments and interpreting the results.  TIGHAR bottle expert Bill Lockhart is providing his expertise in all things glass, and other TIGHAR members such as Bill Lockhart, Jeff Glickman and Rick Jones are providing donations for the work.  Ric and Pat Thrasher have been supportive every step of the way. If there is anyone else I left out, please let me know.

I'd also like to give credit to TIGHAR member and Niku expeditionary Walt Holm, who was skeptical of the jar research, not because he felt it lacked intrinsic worth but because he felt adequate controls had not been effected to help validate it.  These control experiments have been the backbone of our current efforts.  You've seen a little of Walt's influence in the FTIR report on Skat insect repellent earlier on this thread.

Joe Cerniglia
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 08:14:38 AM by Joe Cerniglia »
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richie conroy

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #514 on: February 19, 2013, 04:04:28 PM »

Hi All

Just come across this on ebay so thought i would post as the small jar is similar to Dr Berry's 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-OMAHA-NEBRASKA-antique-MILK-GLASS-Perfume-Cosmetic-bottles-VELVETINA-/370650306774?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564c7ad8d6



Thanks Richie
We are an echo of the past


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richie conroy

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #515 on: February 19, 2013, 04:15:29 PM »

here is another link to a coupon with same type jar

http://forgottenoldphotos.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/photo-number-456.html


We are an echo of the past


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richie conroy

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #516 on: February 19, 2013, 04:25:49 PM »

We are an echo of the past


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James G. Stoveken

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #517 on: February 20, 2013, 10:43:16 AM »

VELVETINA VANISHING CREAM!!??  That explains everything!  OK, next project...      :D
Jim Stoveken
 
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richie conroy

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #518 on: February 20, 2013, 07:19:32 PM »

VELVETINA VANISHING CREAM!!??  That explains everything!  OK, next project...      :D

Yup That vanishing cream has allot to answer for haha, However it's the first jar i have found that is similar to dr berrys jar out of the well over 100.000 odd i have looked at in last 12 month's  ::)   It is mentioned page 4 i think on this topic but no picture was attached  :)

Thanks Richie
We are an echo of the past


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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #519 on: February 20, 2013, 10:01:05 PM »

Here is another one for sale, with some good photos

http://www.etsy.com/listing/78301947/antique-velvetina-vanishing-cream-milk

amck
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Alan Harris

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #520 on: February 21, 2013, 02:17:52 PM »

I think vanishing creams did contain mercury, which is interesting; but both the Velvetinas, the older posting mentioned by Richie and the one found by Andrew, are in opaque (milk) glass and do not have the "HA" Hazel-Atlas trademark on the bottom.  I suppose HA might still have made them, as a custom order in customer-specified color and with the product name on the bottom.
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #521 on: February 21, 2013, 09:36:16 PM »

Agreed, and the bottom of one of them actually says Velvetina, which the Niku artifact does not have.

But I'm curious about the brown jar on eBay and how it might be different that the typical milk glass.

amck
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #522 on: February 22, 2013, 06:19:08 AM »

I think vanishing creams did contain mercury, which is interesting; but both the Velvetinas, the older posting mentioned by Richie and the one found by Andrew, are in opaque (milk) glass and do not have the "HA" Hazel-Atlas trademark on the bottom.  I suppose HA might still have made them, as a custom order in customer-specified color and with the product name on the bottom.

Greg George sent me this link to a USDA fine imposed in 1937 against a maker of pills for misrepresenting the level of mercury contained in their product.  The USDA found the maker guilty of not using enough mercury as stipulated by the official "standard of strength" in the United States Pharmacopoeia. 

http://archive.nlm.nih.gov/fdanj/bitstream/123456789/62925/2/321001540.txt

Clearly, the agreement on known health hazards was different from that of our own era.

Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078 ECR

« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 06:38:54 AM by Joe Cerniglia »
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #523 on: February 22, 2013, 06:25:29 AM »

I think vanishing creams did contain mercury, which is interesting; but both the Velvetinas, the older posting mentioned by Richie and the one found by Andrew, are in opaque (milk) glass and do not have the "HA" Hazel-Atlas trademark on the bottom.  I suppose HA might still have made them, as a custom order in customer-specified color and with the product name on the bottom.

I would not think it impossible for vanishing cream to contain ammoniated mercury. General chemistry guides, however, appear to draw a distinction between the ingredients in vanishing creams and those in bleaching creams, and the former are not said to contain mercury.

p. 1.221:

http://books.google.com/books?id=oAo1X2eagywC&pg=RA4-PR10&dq=vanishing+cream+contains+mercury&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yY8mUfeeJ6Tb0wGSvIGQCg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vanishing%20cream%20contains%20mercury&f=false

p. 71:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Rro0lH0Lzm8C&pg=PA71&dq=vanishing+cream+contains+mercury&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aZEmUZv3EK2J0QHTxYDYBQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=vanishing%20cream%20contains%20mercury&f=false

Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078 ECR
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #524 on: February 22, 2013, 06:38:11 AM »

VELVETINA VANISHING CREAM!!??  That explains everything!  OK, next project...      :D

Yup That vanishing cream has allot to answer for haha, However it's the first jar i have found that is similar to dr berrys jar out of the well over 100.000 odd i have looked at in last 12 month's  ::)   It is mentioned page 4 i think on this topic but no picture was attached  :)

Thanks Richie

Good find, Richie!  I'll add this to the list.  My Sears Catalogs didn't offer this one.  I can't seem to find it offered beyond 1917.  I'd welcome more information on this product.

Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078 ECR
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