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Author Topic: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream  (Read 444946 times)

william patterson

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #495 on: February 16, 2013, 02:45:42 PM »

I believe the idea is that European men or fair colored men such as Coast Guardsman or fishermen might use nose balm for protective creams as well as after sunburn conditions. People that are already burned or suffer burns easily tend to protect damaged skin from burning further. Even at the turn of the century this was not unheard of, there was not mass ignorance of the sun's burning effect until  the 1970's. The idea of skin protection was known even 100 years ago. Sunburn relief has been known about probably as long as people have been sunburnt.
Which is an entirely different scenario than Polynesians applying Bullfrog sun block.

Ladies, and men, wore hats for this exact purpose for centuries around the world in every community known and do to this day.
So on an island which was lived on by European men, used by European men,(such as the now known timber cutters), lived on by a coast guard station,  the idea an empty jar of skin protectant, or skin healer, used by a man is not a far fetched hypothesis.
Emelia Earhart did not invent sun protection, or invent sunburn creams, nor was she the sole buyer of such products even in the 1930's.
So was this jar hers? Who the heck knows. The point is that sunburn cream(as Dr.Berrys was advertised to alleviate in numerous advertising examples) doesn't seem out of place on a tropical island considering the amount of fair skin people on the island in the decade before and after her disappearance.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 02:52:33 PM by william patterson »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #496 on: February 16, 2013, 04:56:52 PM »

So on an island which was lived on by European men, used by European men,(such as the now known timber cutters), lived on by a coast guard station,  the idea an empty jar of skin protectant, or skin healer, used by a man is not a far fetched hypothesis.

Your desperate defense doesn't hold up. The only European men who lived on the island, as far as I know, were Gallagher, the Coasties, and for a a couple months, Laxton.  We have an inventory of Gallagher's personal effects.  No skin protectorates there.  We have numerous photos of bare-chested Coasties.  No concern about sunburn there. That leaves Laxton who is known to have visited the site once.   What's this about about European timber cutters?  I must have missed that.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 11:04:00 AM by Ric Gillespie »
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william patterson

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #497 on: February 16, 2013, 06:57:44 PM »

So on an island which was lived on by European men, used by European men,(such as the now known timber cutters), lived on by a coast guard station,  the idea an empty jar of skin protectant, or skin healer, used by a man is not a far fetched hypothesis.

Your desperate defense doesn't hold p. The only European men who lived on the island, as far as I know, were Gallagher, the Coasties, and for a a couple months, Laxton.  We have an inventory of Gallagher's personal effects.  No skin protectorates there.  We have numerous photos of bare-chested Coasties.  No concern about sunburn there. That leaves Laxton who is known to have visited the site once.   What's this about about European timber cutters?  I must have missed that.

There is not an ounce of desperation in pointing out sunburn relief cream on a tropical island is far from extraordinary.
 Especially one with a coast guard station on it.  A Coast guard station equals a LOT OF PEOPLE WITH SUNBURN POTENTIAL.
I find it amusing for the head of Tighar to quickly skim the US military living there as "the coasties" and give it some short Shrift almost like that is an irrelevant time and matter. Yet I have desperation?
For you as well as I know Ric, this jar could have rode in aboard a US transport as well as the Electra. It also has several other
potential sources which are in this thread and I will not rehash.

As far as Timber cutters, well you must have amnesia or are a bit tired,  because you have talked at length in multiple threads on this forum about Timber cutters being on the island before Earhart, when discussing a potential source for the found sextant box, shoes.
They could have also dropped an empty sunburn jar obviously. As could any other visitor, whether Brits raising markers of possession, nailing notices on the trees, or fisherman out for an adventure(both also documented on these pages in the past).
The island has been used,and during the 1920-40's offers numerous possibilities for the simple loss of a sunburn jar.

That it "may" be part of the puzzle I concede. I also am rational enough to weigh the evidence and concede these jars perhaps have no connection to Earhart at all, and that is as plain as the sun which caused the infliction to begin with.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 07:03:57 PM by william patterson »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #498 on: February 16, 2013, 07:28:27 PM »

So on an island which was lived on by European men, used by European men,(such as the now known timber cutters), lived on by a coast guard station,  the idea an empty jar of skin protectant, or skin healer, used by a man is not a far fetched hypothesis.

Your desperate defense doesn't hold p. The only European men who lived on the island, as far as I know, were Gallagher, the Coasties, and for a a couple months, Laxton.  We have an inventory of Gallagher's personal effects.  No skin protectorates there.  We have numerous photos of bare-chested Coasties.  No concern about sunburn there. That leaves Laxton who is known to have visited the site once.   What's this about about European timber cutters?  I must have missed that.

There is not an ounce of desperation in pointing out sunburn relief cream on a tropical island is far from extraordinary.
 Especially one with a coast guard station on it.  A Coast guard station equals a LOT OF PEOPLE WITH SUNBURN POTENTIAL.
I find it amusing for the head of Tighar to quickly skim the US military living there as "the coasties" and give it some short Shrift almost like that is an irrelevant time and matter. Yet I have desperation?
For you as well as I know Ric, this jar could have rode in aboard a US transport as well as the Electra. It also has several other
potential sources which are in this thread and I will not rehash.

As far as Timber cutters, well you must have amnesia or are a bit tired,  because you have talked at length in multiple threads on this forum about Timber cutters being on the island before Earhart, when discussing a potential source for the found sextant box, shoes.
They could have also dropped an empty sunburn jar obviously. As could any other visitor, whether Brits raising markers of possession, nailing notices on the trees, or fisherman out for an adventure(both also documented on these pages in the past).
The island has been used,and during the 1920-40's offers numerous possibilities for the simple loss of a sunburn jar.

That it "may" be part of the puzzle I concede. I also am rational enough to weigh the evidence and concede these jars perhaps have no connection to Earhart at all, and that is as plain as the sun which caused the infliction to begin with.

I agree with you, william patterson, and what a distraction! Aren't we here to determine whether or not the aircraft made its last landing on the Nikumaroro  reef? Archeologists may revel in zippers and shoes and jars, but in the end, these are all tangential, and essentially irrelevant. I recognize that you are no fan of asserted aircraft parts discovered, but in the end, that is where the proof will be found in the pudding, or not.


 
Tim
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william patterson

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #499 on: February 16, 2013, 09:34:52 PM »

I do agree with you Mr.Mellon on this point. The recovered Jars and bottles prove little one way or the other in my opinion.
I do not consider them carrying much weight for evidence of Earhart.
Rather I prefer testimony from a doctor of a wheel in the lagoon passage, or plexiglass from an airplane.
In my opinion those items and testimony are 1000 times better evidence of Earhart stranded than empty bottles and jars
that we have no record of Earhart ever owning, using, or carrying on her plane.
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #500 on: February 17, 2013, 05:33:42 AM »

So on an island which was lived on by European men, used by European men,(such as the now known timber cutters), lived on by a coast guard station,  the idea an empty jar of skin protectant, or skin healer, used by a man is not a far fetched hypothesis.

Your desperate defense doesn't hold p. The only European men who lived on the island, as far as I know, were Gallagher, the Coasties, and for a a couple months, Laxton.  We have an inventory of Gallagher's personal effects.  No skin protectorates there.  We have numerous photos of bare-chested Coasties.  No concern about sunburn there. That leaves Laxton who is known to have visited the site once.   What's this about about European timber cutters?  I must have missed that.

Yes Mr Gillespie there are pictures of bare-chested coasties however all that indicates is that there are photos of bare-chested coasties, not that all of them had no concerns about sunburn so Mr Patterson's argument is neither desperate nor ill-founded. Perhaps some did, especially fair skinned ones who from past experience had been badly sunburned. I note in many photos taken during the war on Pacific islands that quite often while there are many servicemen with no shirts or hats, there are others wearing shirts and hats. So that doesn't rule out the introduction of the Dr Berry product by a coastguard. Sunburn is a painful thing for those who burn easily - I do and if I had been stationed on that island during WW2 I most certainly would have avoided getting burnt. Also I would suggest that the unit medical officer and its commander would try to avoid having some of their men incapacitated with what was essentially an easily avoidable injury. Many years ago I was quite literally laid up in bed for a few days because of very bad sunburn on my legs - couldn't stand and could barely walk, since that experience I have avoided it by being careful. 
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #501 on: February 17, 2013, 08:22:22 AM »

The straw man has made an appearance in the argument.  No one has said that Coast Guardsmen couldn't have brought the jar or the bottle fragment to the Seven Site. No one has stated it was physically impossible.  What we are considering here is the probable.  Let's forget for a moment the arguments in favor of these glass fragments as indicative of a Euro-American female at the Seven Site.  They've been stated and re-stated.  How might we strengthen the argument in favor of these artifacts as indicative of ownership by male Coast Guardsmen, or i-Kiribati, or Tuvaluan colonist, or British overseer?  We could use a photo of Red Vet Pet, the only commercial sunscreen available during World War II.  Did it sell in the containers such as the jar or bottle?  Are there products other than women's cosmetics in which the jar was sold?  What are these products?  All possibilities must be admitted, but do they all carry equal weight?  We can say the Coast Guardsmen desperately needed and craved sunscreen, that their every waking moment on the island was devoted to a hunt for these items, but where in the context of the 1940s or 1930s are these products to be found?  I like the Socratic dialogue, but it needs to rise above vague generalizations.  The arguments "pro" the Nikumaroro hypothesis are growing out of specific research.  They do not prove but rather, indicate.  Show the evidence in which alternate hypotheses are indicated.  Proof is not requested, but generalization will not do.  Build a train of thought and defend it and the argument will be entertained, and I dare say, welcomed.

Second, the argument that the artifacts are a distraction from the airplane is a total non-sequitur.  There were PEOPLE and THINGS in the airplane.  It's very fallacious to suggest that we're being misled by stupid science types who want to consider other lines of evidence, evidence which, by the way, we now have in hand to analyze and debate.  I see nothing exclusionary to the aircraft about having such a debate.

Joe Cerniglia
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #502 on: February 17, 2013, 11:02:59 AM »

The straw man has made an appearance in the argument.

The forum does seem to have a Scarecrow Brigade who are more interested in naysaying than in doing any genuine research to support their imaginings about what someone might have done.  What was it the Scarecrow wished he had?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #503 on: February 17, 2013, 11:17:40 AM »

As far as Timber cutters, well you must have amnesia or are a bit tired,  because you have talked at length in multiple threads on this forum about Timber cutters being on the island before Earhart, when discussing a potential source for the found sextant box, shoes.

If you'll review those threads I think you'll find you are mistaken. In 1939 and '40 the first settlers on Nikumaroro did a lot of timber cutting for the construction of the Government Station.  We suspect that it was one of these timber cutting parties that discovered the skull of the castaway.  The work parties were Gilbertese laborers.  There were no Europeans on the island at that time.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #504 on: February 17, 2013, 12:07:41 PM »

There were PEOPLE and THINGS in the airplane.

Mr. Cerniglia, there are PEOPLE and THINGS in the airplane 985 feet below sea level that are more certainly related to the event in question, in my opinion. I think no-one is questioning whether the land-based evidence may be real, only the ability to prove it so, due to other complicating actors potentially involved.

You might be able to assist in reaching the practical determination of whether the Earhart aircraft landed at Nikumaroro if you were to spend some of your time examining what has already been found, and searching yourself for additional evidence. If you choose not to get "wet" in this matter, that is OK too.
Tim
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #505 on: February 17, 2013, 12:35:18 PM »

You might be able to assist in reaching the practical determination of whether the Earhart aircraft landed at Nikumaroro if you were to spend some of your time examining what has already been found,

That is exactly what Joe is doing and I would urge him to continue to do so.
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Alan Harris

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #506 on: February 17, 2013, 02:36:17 PM »

As far as Timber cutters, well you must have amnesia or are a bit tired,  because you have talked at length in multiple threads on this forum about Timber cutters being on the island before Earhart, when discussing a potential source for the found sextant box, shoes.

If you'll review those threads I think you'll find you are mistaken. In 1939 and '40 the first settlers on Nikumaroro did a lot of timber cutting for the construction of the Government Station.  We suspect that it was one of these timber cutting parties that discovered the skull of the castaway.  The work parties were Gilbertese laborers.  There were no Europeans on the island at that time.

Mr. Patterson may also be thinking of the earlier timber cutting mentioned here and quoted below:
Quote
According to Harry Maude's history of Gardner Island prepared as part of his proposal for the Phoenix Islands Settlement Scheme, the "well-known island identity" was the Samoa Shipping and Trading Company, Ltd. who were issued an Occupation License for a term of 87 years on January 1st, 1914.  The manager of the company, Captain Allen, "made several visits to Gardner for the purpose of cutting and loading timber for ship repairing but no other use was made of the island."

But as discussed back then, very little is known about those visits, e.g. whether work crews would have been Europeans or otherwise.
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richie conroy

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #507 on: February 17, 2013, 05:04:46 PM »

Hi All

Has the area directly in front of the arrow shaped anomoloy been searched and dug over, Could be a marker of some sorts

Thanks Richie
We are an echo of the past


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Dan Kelly

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #508 on: February 17, 2013, 05:09:38 PM »

The straw man has made an appearance in the argument.

The forum does seem to have a Scarecrow Brigade who are more interested in naysaying than in doing any genuine research to support their imaginings about what someone might have done.  What was it the Scarecrow wished he had?

Thank you for your reply Mr Gillespie, and I thank Mr Cerniglia also. There was no introduction of a straw man in my reply as you are well aware. Your assertion that there was is because I simply pointed out that photos of bare-chested Coast Guard personnel is not evidence that all Coast Guard personnel were unconcerned about sunburn only that some were. It is a small point but one that should be noted as this freckle cream jar has a great deal of TIGHAR's argument that Earhart landed on Nikumaroro riding on its tiny and shattered shoulders.

It is only right therefore, in the strict interests of science, that its limitations as evidence should be cited so that that evidentiary value can be assessed properly. If you dismiss that as nay-saying it shows that you are allowing your biases towards the Nikumaroro theory to outweigh proper caution. In following the freckle cream argument and the comments as they have progressed over time I respectfully point out that so far this particular jar and its assumed contents have only been linked to Earhart in the most general sense using the evidence that at one point well before her disappearance she alluded to her problem with freckles. That is the evidence used to link the Nikumaroro jar to her and to claiming it is evidence that she landed on the island - even I as a relatively ordinary guy can see that it isn't much.

I wish you well in your endeavour but these few glass fragments do not by themselves offer the link to Earhart except through the most tenuous of arguments. Especially as to do so both yourself and Mr Cerniglia must assertively rule out other possible sources for the jar without any evidence to back those exclusions other than painting pictures of a sun tan happy population of European naturists. That is the danger with proposing theories - sometimes the theorist begins to believe the theory rather than maintaining a professional and sceptical distance. In any exercise such as this it is the proposer of the theory who must be the most sceptical of all because failure to do so allows the chance that too much weight is placed upon things that do not have the strength of certainty to support it thus, ironically, nay-saying is the theorist's best tool in the chest.   
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #509 on: February 17, 2013, 05:14:35 PM »

Has the area directly in front of the arrow shaped anomoloy been searched and dug over, Could be a marker of some sorts

We went to great lengths to check that out during the 2007 trip.  It's just a patch of sand.
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