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Author Topic: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream  (Read 445613 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #345 on: October 09, 2012, 06:00:43 PM »

(I would, by the way, add that with Mark Pearce's analysis of the ads from Canada targeting men for Italian Balm and a few sparse American ads from the 1930s touting the benefits for the family, I would not mind if the research bulletin I wrote on the lotion bottle be amended to read that Campana Italian Balm, and hand lotions in general in the 1930s and 1940s were marketed mainly to women.  Previously I had said exclusively to women.)

We don't amend published bulletins.  If new research makes a bulletin obsolete (happens all the time) we publish a new bulletin.  The old bulletin remains with a notation that it has been superceded by a new one. That way we have an historical record of the progress of the research - known to our critics as "changing our story."
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #346 on: October 09, 2012, 07:24:26 PM »

If the process requires that the bulletin be made "obsolete," that's obviously not the way we would want to go.  Nothing was made obsolete on that bulletin except a slight change in one word, which changes none of its overall conclusion.

Since you have aptly raised the issue of Occam's razor, it's worth summarizing, for those who have not been following every word of the discussion closely, what entities we must multiply to entertain some of the possibilities discussed, and why, Ric, you're right on target in framing the discussion this way.

For the bottle to be something other than 1933 Campana Italian Balm and other than something belonging to the castaway, some combination of the following must be true:

1) The date code must be in error, a period should have been placed after the 3, the bottle actually is from 1943 AND a better spectral match must exist for Skat than for Campana Italian Balm.  (Note that Skat did not exist in 1933, and so for the bottle to be Skat, 2 entities must be "multiplied beyond necessity.")
2) The date code is correct and a Coast Guardsmen brought 1933 Campana Italian Balm to the Seven Site.  Judging by the ads I have seen and the radio programs I have heard from the 1940s with Campana ads targeting women, this seems unlikely from a socio-cultural standpoint, notwithstanding the exceptions noted.  Life Magazine and the First Nighter radio program, which both spoke of the product as an ideal way to attract men, had a combined audience share of the majority of Americans living in the 1940s.
3) The date code must be in error and a Coast Guardsman brought 1943 Campana Italian Balm to the Seven Site. This option looks to be nearly impossible. Ads I've seen from the Sears Catalogs show that by 1943, the bottle style for Campana had changed to a rounded side, rather than the straight side seen in the artifact.  See attached file from the Spring 1943 Sears Catalog (notice the lovely hands).

It should be emphasized that no one is saying the above is impossible.  We are, I believe, saying that the most obvious answer to this exhaustively researched (and I know because I did exhaustively research it) question is the one most obviously before us:

The bottle is most likely from 1933 and contained Campana Italian Balm, the most popular hand lotion of the era, marketed mainly to women.

(Even having said all this, I find nothing wrong with entertaining the possibilities.  We must remember, however, that contextually, alongside rouge, a compact, a mirror from a mirror compact, fragments of a compact, pre-war liniment, and possible freckle ointment, one more cosmetic item is hardly unusual - unless one considers the even larger context of the island itself, whereupon it becomes positively unusual.)

And even beyond this, lest we become too wrapped up in one artifact as the next most likely "smoking gun," we need to remember what Tom King said in his blog earlier this year:

"It’s far more common in archaeology, and more trustworthy, to base our conclusions on a pattern of clues – artifacts, faunal remains, the organization of sites, and so on – that collectively give us a plausible story, a reasonable picture of what happened in the past. I know that kind of research is hard to present in screen shots and sound bites, but that’s how we actually piece the past together. And that’s that kind of a reasonable picture we think we’re seeing come together at the Seven Site. It’s still murky, and it’s still possible we’re misperceiving it, but if we are, it’s because we’re misinterpreting the patterns of evidence, not because we’re missing some specific definitive artifact."



Joe Cerniglia
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Jeff Carter

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #347 on: October 09, 2012, 09:25:39 PM »

In a half day spent e-mailing a few online bottle sellers, two different 2oz Owens-Illinois "DES PAT. 85925" bottles were found that didn't match the supposed marking and dating scheme for O-I bottles.  I suppose each person can decide for themselves how that affects their opinion, if at all.

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Mark Pearce

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #348 on: October 09, 2012, 10:55:51 PM »

In a half day spent e-mailing a few online bottle sellers, two different 2oz Owens-Illinois "DES PAT. 85925" bottles were found that didn't match the supposed marking and dating scheme for O-I bottles.  I suppose each person can decide for themselves how that affects their opinion, if at all.


Joe reports in "Notion of a Lotion"- "We were also able to locate a bottle, sans label, that matched this style."

What about size?  Does artifact 2-8-S-2a match up with the dimensions of the 2oz Owen-Illinois bottles? We know they were used to bottle Skat insect repellent during WW2, but are there any print ads, radio commercials, etc., that would suggest Campana Italian Balm was being distributed in these same 2oz bottles around the year 1937? 
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #349 on: October 10, 2012, 02:35:21 AM »

That is a fair statement.  For added perspective, it might be useful to know what were the counts for those sellers you emailed who did have bottles that did match the scheme.

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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #350 on: October 10, 2012, 05:16:31 AM »

Joe reports in "Notion of a Lotion"- "We were also able to locate a bottle, sans label, that matched this style."

What about size?  Does artifact 2-8-S-2a match up with the dimensions of the 2oz Owen-Illinois bottles? We know they were used to bottle Skat insect repellent during WW2, but are there any print ads, radio commercials, etc., that would suggest Campana Italian Balm was being distributed in these same 2oz bottles around the year 1937?

Hi Mark,
We don't know the exact ounce size of the fragment found on Nikumaroro.  Ric listed it on EPAC
as 3 oz. or less.  As a result, the only way to match sizes to candidate bottles is to compare them, and even in this regard we only have the base to compare, not the top. 

As I mentioned in my Background report, a precursor to Notion of a Lotion we have not been able to locate a bottle in the exact size as the artifact.  Skat may be a good match as far as size is concerned.  I will need to check when the Skat arrives.

In the fall of 1937, Campana Italian Balm was listed in the Sears Catalog in 3 sizes, 29c, 44c and 79c.  File attached.  We don't know the ounce sizes.  Attempts to find all three sizes today from sellers to compare have not been successful.

It is interesting to note as an aside, in going back over my binder containing all the Campana ads I collected from the Sears Catalogs, I find a few interesting coincidences -

a) The date code on the bottle appears to be 1933.  While Jeff has suggested here it may be 1943, the bottle cannot be earlier than 1933 (1923, for example) for the simple reason that the patent was issued in 1931 and thus the style did not exist that much earlier. (Bill Lockhart's article lists separate reasons why the 1923 date is impossible, but I will leave that to those who would like to study it.)

b) Further, while the date code on the bottle reads (apparently) 1933, this style of bottle is not pictured in the Sears Catalog ads for Campana until 1935.  The style apparently fell out of favor for Campana in 1941, the year they introduced the "wave" style I sent last evening.  Assuming the artifact is for Campana, this sets a tentative date of arrival to Niku even more proximate to Earhart's disappearance than the date code would even suggest, and not much later than the time in which the castaway's bones were found.

As in all things here, with the exception of things like the tail of Earhart's plane emblazoned with the Lockheed logo, we're not about eliminating possibilities.  As Greg George has pointed out to me, moulds could be purloined, bought, sold, reused by any manufacturer who wished to use them at any time.  This is not to say it happened; only that it - and a number of other things about which we have no knowledge - could have happened.  What my research on the Campana was meant to suggest was probabilities.  How probable is it that along with a green bottle and a beer bottle, positively dated to before W.W. II and burned in a fire in what appears to be an attempt to purify (distill fresh?) water, and a possible freckle cream jar (almost assuredly some type of cosmetic), and a compact with a mirror and rouge, that some other type of cosmetic hand lotion was found nearby?

Joe Cerniglia
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #351 on: October 10, 2012, 08:20:36 AM »

In a half day spent e-mailing a few online bottle sellers, two different 2oz Owens-Illinois "DES PAT. 85925" bottles were found that didn't match the supposed marking and dating scheme for O-I bottles.  I suppose each person can decide for themselves how that affects their opinion, if at all.

I guess the question is why would you email bottle sellers of Owens-Illinois in the first place?  They would be the least to know anything about a balm bottle imo.  O-I is a large conglomerate of many glass manufacturers in the US and abroad.  One and most importantly is Owens Brockway Glass Container Co. Inc who through acquisition became the sole owner of, Hazel Atlas.  Fact is that Owens Brockway owns all of Owens Illinois manufacturing plants worldwide.

Now, I have spent the greater part of two days researching where the archives of Hazel Atlas are.  One thing I have found is two entities that have large displays of not only Hazel Atlas Glass but others as well.  One of those entities is the University of Toledo, OH, a repository of a large collection of vintage glassware.  The other is the West Virginia Northern Community College.  I have made contact with both entities to see if they have anything that relates to the artifacts that we have in hand.  That research is presently ongoing. 

I have also found a woman who worked for Hazel Atlas during the time frame we are dealing with here.  She is now 95 years old and is a resident of an assisted living facility.  She graduated University with a degree in Industrial design and was employed by Hazel Atlas Corp. She was responsible for many of the designs of HA.  As of Feb 12, 2012 she was lucid and I have two contacts that know her who I will try and contact today.  She decided after retirement to donate her collection of HA glassware to an entity that I am in the process of conversing with to see if any of those match the artifact we have.  In reading her story, she has a wealth of information that could most likely date the Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream Jar and at the very least let us know where the records of Hazel Atlas are today.

"That rare melding of the two elements of glass making has occurred for an area organization that collects a line of Wheeling-made glass. Newly-discovered vintage Hazel Atlas glass has been added to the historic collection owned by the Alumni Association of West Virginia Northern Community College.

The designer of the glass, 95-year-old xxxxxxx xxxxxx of Pittsburgh, donated these pieces along with original company catalogs to the association's collection." 

I am not sure she is still alive but if she is I x'd out her name from the above quote for her privacy till I can get permission from those who know her to speak with her.  Hopefully there is more to come from this endeavor.

To Joe Cerniglia, if you are interested in pulling the reigns on this project, I would be most happy to hand them off to you with all the data I have collected and the contacts.
Doc
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #352 on: October 10, 2012, 09:18:59 AM »


I'd like to hope for DNA on some of this stuff still, but to borrow Joe's own phrase in a similar circumstance, it seems the odds of that after all this time are 'vanishingly small'.  :(

Ah yes Jeff, oh for that bit of touch DNA be it Mitochondrial or Nuclear that could link Earhart to the artifacts.  'vanishingly small' may be an understatement by Joe.
Doc
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #353 on: October 10, 2012, 09:31:49 AM »

Ah yes Jeff, oh for that bit of touch DNA be it Mitochondrial or Nuclear that could link Earhart to the artifacts.  'vanishingly small' may be an understatement by Joe.

Forget "touch DNA."  We've learned that the environment on Niku is so hostile to the survival of DNA that getting contact or "touch" DNA is out of the question.  Getting DNA from human bone is even dicey. A bone that has been sitting on the surface for 75 years will, in all likelihood, no longer yield enough DNA to sequence.  We'll need a bone that somehow got buried early and has been protected from the sun, rain, and rats.  There are ways a bone could get buried.  A crab could drag it into its burrow.  Bioturbation (the stirring of the ground caused by plant growth) could bury a bone.  Or, of course, Amelia might have buried Fred.  But those all sound like long shots.
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Jeff Carter

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #354 on: October 10, 2012, 10:14:01 AM »

In a half day spent e-mailing a few online bottle sellers, two different 2oz Owens-Illinois "DES PAT. 85925" bottles were found that didn't match the supposed marking and dating scheme for O-I bottles.  I suppose each person can decide for themselves how that affects their opinion, if at all.

I guess the question is why would you email bottle sellers of Owens-Illinois in the first place?

The email was simply to several bottle sellers on Ebay and Etsy to ask for a photograph of the bottom of the bottle they were selling so we could have a look at any markings on the bottom.  That was all. 

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Mark Pearce

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #355 on: October 10, 2012, 01:18:59 PM »


(I would, by the way, add that with Mark Pearce's analysis of the ads from Canada targeting men for Italian Balm and a few sparse American ads from the 1930s touting the benefits for the family, I would not mind if the research bulletin I wrote on the lotion bottle be amended to read that Campana Italian Balm, and hand lotions in general in the 1930s and 1940s were marketed mainly to women.  Previously I had said exclusively to women.)


If the artifact found on Niku is truly part of a Campana Italian Balm bottle, how can we be sure it didn't belong to Gerald Gallagher?  There is clear evidence Gallagher owned at least one bottle of skin lotion during his time on the island.  The list of his personal effects includes-

Item 24. 1 Tin box marked G.B.G. containing:- "...2 bottles hair cream, 1 bottle skin lotion, 1 bottle medicine, 1 bottle pills...,"

All the Campana Balm bottle labels and nearly all the advertisements I've seen pitch the product as the "Original Skin Softener".  The product was marketed not so much as a hand lotion, but as a general skin lotion.  Apparently Gerald Gallagher turns out to be one of those rare men who used some brand of skin lotion in the 1930s.  Gallagher could have purchased bottles of Campana's Balm before he left England.  According to Joe's "Background" paper a publication from 1935 reported- 

"...The manufacturing plant at Toronto now supplies not only the Dominion, but Australia, England and New Zealand. Demand for the product from many other foreign lands has required a distribution plan which will make the lotion available in every quarter of the globe.”   

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #356 on: October 10, 2012, 02:15:51 PM »

If the artifact found on Niku is truly part of a Campana Italian Balm bottle, how can we be sure it didn't belong to Gerald Gallagher?  There is clear evidence Gallagher owned at least one bottle of skin lotion during his time on the island. 

We, of course, can't be sure it didn't belong to Gallagher any more than we can be sure it did belong to Amelia Earhart, but if it did belong to Gallagher is certainly wasn't the bottle listed among his personal effects after he died.
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Randy Conrad

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #357 on: October 10, 2012, 04:33:27 PM »

 Hi! I wanted to send this out to you guys to let you know the status of my search with the museum and its curator. Hope this comes in handy Joe!

Russ,

Thanks for replying to Randy.

Jo

Joanne Hott, Docent
Duncan & Miller Glass Museum
The National Duncan Glass Society
525 Jefferson Avenue – POB 965
Washington, PA  15301-0965
(724)222-9950

www.duncanmiller.net

-----Original Message-----
From: rcrupe@nsasecurityforces.com [mailto:rcrupe@nsasecurityforces.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 8:15 AM
To: unclerandy43@aol.com; dmmuseum@verizon.net
Subject: Hazel atlas jar

Hello Randy,

Sorry for a delayed response. Hazel-Atlas Glass Company manufactured thousands of various jars in a multitudes of designs. Your jar is a style that was used as packer jar for various items (e.g. jelly, ointments, paint). The milk glass jar can easily be hazel-atlas as they did not mark all their wares.

The paper label would have been added by the customer. Hazel atlas offered fired on color labels on jars or bottles.

I realize this isn't much help but most company records were destroyed when Continental Can bought Hazel Atlas in 1956.

I collect all sorts of Hazel Atlas and haven't seen any records of Dr. Berry. I have a few bills from another company that sold similar items.

Russell Crupe

Edited to remove excess spacing.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 05:28:55 PM by Bob Lanz »
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #358 on: October 10, 2012, 05:58:42 PM »


Your jar is a style that was used as packer jar for various items (e.g. jelly, ointments, paint). The milk glass jar can easily be hazel-atlas as they did not mark all their wares.

Thanks Randy, and Thanks to Mr. Crupe and Joanne Hott.
I am grateful for their assistance.  We might be able to provide some information that may have been unavailable to them at the time of their inquiry that might enable them to help us further.

We have found mercury in quantity sufficient to have been considered part of the original contents on the inside of the jar.

The jar is less than 3 ounces and is of a style stated in Hazel Atlas's ads to be for ointments.  I think ointments might be a more fruitful line of inquiry than paints, but if he has some paints he can show us in that jar, there would be interest.

We have from Bill Lockhart evidence that the jar was in fact designed for a specific purpose: "the original design this jar was based on was a Toilet Cream Jar on page 29 of the 1896 Whitall Tatum & Co. catalog.  The jar was also in the ointment pot section of the 1902 catalog, although I have not found it in later Whitall Tatum catalogs."

This is exhaustively researched, and specific information that might be of interest to collectors and museums who are looking at the piece.  With the databases they have available, it might even give them a great starting point for further research!

They may like to know we have found 7 documented products we know appeared in the jar: Burnham Kalos Skin Rejuvenator, Gervaise Graham Hygienic Skin Cream, Gervaise Graham Skin Food, Woodbury Violet Face Cream, Dr. Berry's Creme Elite, and Dr. Berry's Massage Cream, and Dr. Berry's Freckle Ointment.

We would very much like to see other cosmetics, or food or paint products but so far have been unable to locate these.  Maybe they could help us.

We have additional research on this that I'm saving for a bulletin, in partnership with Bill Lockhart, Tom King, and Greg George, but it will take time to assemble.  I think much may be new in this bulletin to those who read it. 

Thanks again for looking into this Randy!

Joe Cerniglia
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #359 on: October 10, 2012, 06:38:20 PM »

There is clear evidence Gallagher owned at least one bottle of skin lotion during his time on the island. 
I had been noticing that about a year ago, and yes, it bothered me, too.  Maybe our British readers could tell us whether "skin lotion" was the way one referred to after shave.  That would be convenient if it was, but I don't know if linguistically that is true.


All the Campana Balm bottle labels and nearly all the advertisements I've seen pitch the product as the "Original Skin Softener".  The product was marketed not so much as a hand lotion, but as a general skin lotion. 

Certainly, it was the "original skin softener."  Very true and it's on the label.  There are probably ads speaking only of it as a general skin lotion.  But in  Life Magazine and some others, you can find lots of ads for Campana as a hand lotion.  I wouldn't say they traded one pitch at the expense of another.

The radio ads for this product are really interesting, and I've listened to many here that can be downloaded. We have a definite research need to listen to more of them.  Try O Little Town of Bethlehem (first 6 minutes) in the link and you'll see, hand lotions and women prominently mentioned. 

Also, it may bear mentioning that in America the bottles of this product featured a drawing of a woman touching her hand to her face, from Fall 1935 to Fall 1946.  Files attached.  You may need to magnify them to see.  It might mean something to check out the kinds of products that share the same page with Campana.  Now, in Canada and elsewhere that situation may be different.  Here's another research need.  Find ads or photos with the bottles pictured in other countries and see whether there is a woman on the front.  Maybe those bottles are in fact different.  However, I really think having a woman on the front of the bottle might dissuade the average man from buying, but I can't say for sure.

Joe Cerniglia
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