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Author Topic: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream  (Read 408411 times)

Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #330 on: October 08, 2012, 04:50:33 AM »

Did you win the auction?

Yes, I did.  I'll get some photos up of the base of the bottle of Skat Insect Repellent as soon as I can.  It occurs to me as well that if the Niku artifact bottle is a bottle of Skat, the makers of Skat would need to be supplementing the 1943 bottles they are known to have used in its earliest confirmed year of production - 1943 - with other bottles from 1933.  The odds of this happening would appear to be vanishingly small.

Joe Cerniglia
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Jeff Carter

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #331 on: October 08, 2012, 12:53:11 PM »

Did you win the auction?

Yes, I did.  I'll get some photos up of the base of the bottle of Skat Insect Repellent as soon as I can.  It occurs to me as well that if the Niku artifact bottle is a bottle of Skat, the makers of Skat would need to be supplementing the 1943 bottles they are known to have used in its earliest confirmed year of production - 1943 - with other bottles from 1933.  The odds of this happening would appear to be vanishingly small.

Joe Cerniglia
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Good auction grab.  Will be really interesting to see how the dimensions compare.  Possibly would nail down the 2 oz. size of the bottle.

I think the question is whether Owens-Illinois might have used an outdated bottle mold base plate in manufacturing.  One can easily envision the following scenario: the factory, in an effort to fill a sudden large bottle production order for a military contractor, uses an old mold base plate from the factory storeroom until time could be found to modify the date code on the mold.  In that scenario, a large number of  bottles could have been manufactured with incorrect date codes until the mold base plate was updated.

Looking forward to the bottle pictures.
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #332 on: October 08, 2012, 02:17:47 PM »

That's an interesting question, Jeff.  The use of incorrect mould stamps is something that would seem to me to be difficult to document, since verification or disverification of date codes on bottles requires separate knowledge of the label on the bottle and the history of the product.  In the case of Skat, though, we have those things: the label on the bottle, the 1943 Life Magazine ad for Skat, which cites this product as new, and the trademark notice of an earliest use date of late 1942 all add significant credibility to the 1943 date code on the eBay Skat bottle.  That's at least one case where it's perfectly reasonable to think the date stamp is correct.

Bill Lockhart's article, which seems to have been exhaustively researched on the question of deciphering the date codes on Owens-Illinois bottles, lists 4 reasons that a bottle maker would have an interest in stamping bottles correctly:

1. Identification of the bottle, particularly for customers placing orders.
2. Mould and inventory control of the factory.
3. Quality control for bottle production, i.e. bottles with defects can be used to identify the defective moulds that produced them.
4. Production liability, e.g. should a bottle burst, the mould number, in combination with trademarks and date codes, can tell how old the bottle was and what company produced it.

The idea that the artifact's date code is incorrect - and thus was supposed to have a period after the 3, indicating an actual production date of 1943 -  is always a possibility, but it seems unlikely to me.  There was no reason to jump to that conclusion prior to finding out about Skat.  The Skat, on its own merits, seems to offer no reason to jump at that possibility.  In fact, it seems to verify to some extent Bill Lockhart's contention that Owens Illinois was one glass house that left behind enough information on its bottle codes to date these bottles reliably to within a single year. 

None of this is absolute, and I don't want to sound that way (but I often do, I know).  This is simply the way the odds seem to lean for me.

Joe Cerniglia
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I think the question is whether Owens-Illinois might have used an outdated bottle mold base plate in manufacturing.  One can easily envision the following scenario: the factory, in an effort to fill a sudden large bottle production order for a military contractor, uses an old mold base plate from the factory storeroom until time could be found to modify the date code on the mold.  In that scenario, a large number of  bottles could have been manufactured with incorrect date codes until the mold base plate was updated.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #333 on: October 08, 2012, 04:14:13 PM »

The idea that the artifact's date code is incorrect - and thus was supposed to have a period after the 3, indicating an actual production date of 1943 -  is always a possibility, but it seems unlikely to me.

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem (entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity)
Occam's Razor

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Jeff Carter

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #334 on: October 08, 2012, 05:57:36 PM »

A bit of trivia that shows a whole lot of 2 ounce bottles were being manufactured (obviously not all by O-I), Pond's alone claimed to have sold 70 MILLION bottles by 1949:  http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1338&dat=19490620&id=I-NXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pvUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2843,2106338


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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #335 on: October 09, 2012, 09:07:02 AM »



Jeff Neville is right. Unfounded speculation that the bottle was incorrectly dated is a good example of a topic that is Too Dumb To Live.  Let's have no more on that subject unless and until someone can provide documentation that Owens-Illinois bottles were incorrectly dated.

But, demonstrating that Earhart brought the bottle raises another challenge against the razor, I suppose - but we do seem to have a 1933 bottle(?).


Yes, we have a 1933 bottle.  Occam's Razor says that "entities" (explanations for all of the many and varied pieces of archival, tidal, photographic, artifactual, and faunal evidence) must not be "multiplied beyond necessity."   In other words, the single hypothetical event that explains everything is the most likely to be true.
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #336 on: October 09, 2012, 01:09:41 PM »


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Ric
I believe that you have attributed Albert Einstein's paraphrase of Occam's Razor to Occam himself.
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #337 on: October 09, 2012, 01:57:30 PM »

I believe that you have attributed Albert Einstein's paraphrase of Occam's Razor to Occam himself.

If so, I'll apologize to both Occam and Einstein, but you'll need to document your allegation.
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Jeff Carter

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #338 on: October 09, 2012, 03:17:11 PM »

Did you win the auction?
Yes, I did.  I'll get some photos up of the base of the bottle of Skat Insect Repellent as soon as I can.  It occurs to me as well that if the Niku artifact bottle is a bottle of Skat, the makers of Skat would need to be supplementing the 1943 bottles they are known to have used in its earliest confirmed year of production - 1943 - with other bottles from 1933.  The odds of this happening would appear to be vanishingly small.
Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078CER

Here are a few more 2oz Insect Repellent bottles that might be worth investigating.  Both bottles appear to have the 85925 patent with the O-I mark without a dot visible by the rightmost digit.

Skat Bottle:

URL:  http://i.minus.com/jfpHokzZE6BRj.jpg


URL: http://i.minus.com/jk0W2Urda0BN8.jpg

6-12 Brand (may not be WWII era, may be post-war)

http://i.minus.com/jbiIsiXCj2vbIi.jpg

Let me know if you want me to send the URL to the online seller's website. 




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Bob Lanz

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #339 on: October 09, 2012, 04:01:42 PM »

I believe that you have attributed Albert Einstein's paraphrase of Occam's Razor to Occam himself.

If so, I'll apologize to both Occam and Einstein, but you'll need to document your allegation.

Ric, you should not have to apologize to either.  As a student of Latin, there are many ways to say basically the same thing.  Latin semantics I do believe and a darn hard language to learn. 

"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate"  Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily

"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"  "Things must not be multiplied beyond necessity"
Doc
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 04:21:30 PM by Bob Lanz »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #340 on: October 09, 2012, 05:08:15 PM »

Ric, you should not have to apologize to either.

Good.  That was going to be tricky.  They're both dead.
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #341 on: October 09, 2012, 05:11:08 PM »

Bill Lockhart's article is instructive:

"In several cases, the initial 4 has been added as an afterthought, frequently slightly out of alignment with the other digits associated with the logo. Occasionally, a mold engraver forgot to change the code. The initial bottle used by the Illinois Brewing Co. of Socorro, New Mexico, for example, was made in 1946 but has a single 6 to the left (note from Joe: should say right) of the Owens-Illinois manufacturer’s mark but with no period after the number. However, I have found few exceptions to the period rule. By 1947, the change to double-digit date codes appears to have been completely adopted by all the plants."

When I look closely at the photos of the bases you have sent, I notice that in the first case, the surface of the base has been "pinched" in such a way that a period to the right of the 3 may have had no room to show up in the stamp.  It may in fact be there.  The photo is blurry.  The second example has alignment problems on the date code and the period may be there to the right of the top half of the 8.  The date code and factory code are upside-down relative to the orientation on the Niku bottle.

The Niku bottle has no such defects.  The stamp is clear, there are no misalignments and no obstructions that would be in the way of the period, had the stamp contained a period, as it properly should if Owens-Illinois was following protocol.

The fact that these were official wartime supply repellents would seem to preclude a Coast Guardsman carrying these in luggage.  I hope Ric will not mind me quoting him, but I have this from research from Ric on Coast Guard supplies:

10/7/2010:

"We have 55 cargo manifests for U.S. Navy PBY resupply flights from Canton Island to the Loran stations on Gardner and Atafu spanning the period from October 1944 to October 1945.  Lots of butter, eggs, meat and fresh veggies of various kinds, apples, oranges, Coke, beer, etc. and on one trip 30 lbs of mayo. No ketchup.  That doesn't mean the Coasties didn't have ketchup but it does mean that any suggestion that ketchup bottles were delivered to the Coasties is a stretch."

Ric, are there any mention of insect repellents in these cargo manifests?

Joe Cerniglia
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #342 on: October 09, 2012, 05:11:42 PM »

Here are a few more 2oz Insect Repellent bottles that might be worth investigating.  Both bottles appear to have the 85925 patent with the O-I mark without a dot visible by the rightmost digit.

Remind me why we're doing this.  We've already matched remnants of the bottle's contents to Campana Italian Balm. 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #343 on: October 09, 2012, 05:20:31 PM »

Ric, are there any mention of insect repellents in these cargo manifests?

No.  There's really no need for insect repellent on Niku.  Very few flying insects and none that are bothersome.  No mosquitos.  No gnats. We've never used any kind of repellent in our many trips there.
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #344 on: October 09, 2012, 05:40:51 PM »


Remind me why we're doing this.  We've already matched remnants of the bottle's contents to Campana Italian Balm.

Well, here's the deal.  Three ingredients were identified in the artifact: lanolin, oil of rapeseed or linseed, and tragacanth gum.  The tragacanth gum was a positive match between the artifact's remnant and remnant on a 1930s bottle of Campana Italian Balm.  Traces of ester (lanolin is an ester) were also found on both bottles.

The problem is esters can be formed as degradation products simply by combining oils and alcohol in the presence, often, of a catalyzing acid.

The bottom line is I can envision scenarios in which a pre-DEET era repellent might have oils and tragacanth gum. The latter is an emulsifier, and the former has natural insect-repellent properties.

If it came down to a test by FTIR comparing Skat and the artifact, I still think a match would be difficult to obtain. But I'd rather avoid a situation where this seemed necessary.

By your checking the Loran supply inventories, I'm satisfied an FTIR test is not necessary.  I assume you would agree.

(I would, by the way, add that with Mark Pearce's analysis of the ads from Canada targeting men for Italian Balm and a few sparse American ads from the 1930s touting the benefits for the family, I would not mind if the research bulletin I wrote on the lotion bottle be amended to read that Campana Italian Balm, and hand lotions in general in the 1930s and 1940s were marketed mainly to women.  Previously I had said exclusively to women.)

Joe Cerniglia
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