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Author Topic: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream  (Read 424129 times)

Bob Lanz

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #255 on: September 26, 2012, 08:56:37 PM »

This "Topic" has been split.  Please continue your comments about what Ms Earhart and Fred Noonan left behind HERE, and resume the conversation of the Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream jar on this thread.
Doc
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #256 on: September 26, 2012, 10:07:06 PM »

Hello All,

This is my first post to the Amelia Earhart Search Forum.  I should introduce myself briefly by saying I've been a member of the Earhart Project Advisory Committee for more than 2 years.

http://tighar.org/wiki/Earhart_Project_Advisory_Committee

In between a demanding work and travel schedule, I try to help Ric, Tom King, TIGHAR and the whole team to examine and interpret the strands of evidence gained by TIGHAR's work on Nikumaroro. My specialty has been interpreting glass artifacts. I've been known to venture an opinion on just about anything.  Recent posts on the jar seem to require additional detail I may be able to help provide.  I will try to fill in some gaps and respond to objections and queries as best I can. What I will say is, of course, subject to modification by those more expert than myself, but I'd like to begin with the quotations below from August 19, 2012.


Well I suggested that perhaps it was once more opaque and Ric said he talked with collectors who said that Milk glass would not turn clear. Never mentioned there were other milk glass examples that were practically clear to begin with. Case closed, and the reason we have all been looking for clear glass. Have we all been looking for a clear jar that never existed? Maybe.

- We have evidence we will be presenting, based on elemental analysis, that suggests the jar is not clear.  Obviously, it's not white either.  We will be presenting this information in an upcoming report.

So it appears this jar was either a very early pre WWI example or Ric's advice from collectors was incorrect, and it indeed faded to clear (maybe after being mostly clear to begin with). In fact one chemist on another article suggested just that. That milk glass made of tin and antimony would probably change color if heated in a fire pit.

- I've personally inspected the jar. I see no signs of heat damage. It has a consistency of appearance that suggest to me it has not been heated, in my opinion. 

You should provide more evidence of your claim the jar could not have been made after World War I. The only thing a 1918 trade journal ad with opal jars proves is the jar was made in 1918. Any one-year source has little meaning for any other year.

I don't know. I am not a chemist, nor have I conducted heat tests on milk glass.
But I think it should have been done.

- We thought about heating some milk glass samples but have not yet done so. Other lab-based experiments that appeared to be more revealing in prospect took precedence.  You are welcome to conduct these experiments if you'd like to assist us.

I think that is the only option left if this is to be a relevant artifact dated to the right period. Either it was weak milk glass that turned clear and could have been Earharts, or it was clear glass all along, and has no connection with Earhart as the bottle would be too old.

- The older it is, the lower the odds the castaway brought the jar, but unless the jar was made after spring 1940, those odds never reach zero. We have some interesting lab results we think may give us a better idea of the jar's production date range.  We will be presenting this information in an upcoming report.

I do find these announcements made to the press too early to be concerning. For instance when it was first found, all newspaper articles said Dr.Berrys was the ONLY glass found that matched this jar. The implications was there. This was a Dr. Berrys. There was no mention of 6 other products. I didn't find that on any press release by any news agencies. I found that information here and by doing some quick googling in a week.

-  I asked Randy Conrad to post the other products here for you to read about.  I researched and found several products the jar may have contained in addition to Dr. Berry's Freckle Ointment.  We informed Discovery of these products prior to their printing their first story on the freckle ointment connection. They chose not to mention them.  Since all of these products were women's cosmetic products, they probably felt they were reporting what was most newsworthy about the story, which was the possible freckle ointment connection.  They had every right to do this.  TIGHAR does not control what media outlets say. TIGHAR reports accurately what it knows usually very soon after it knows something. The best source for TIGHAR information is nearly always this website.


As late as last month, newspaper reports said that not only did this product match Dr.Berrys', it was the ONLY item found that contained mercury.
Again not true. I brought up Velvetine which was a skin lightener, and skin lighteners contained mercury. Same jar style, shape and size and also opaque.

- This claim is large and could use some substantiation. Had you said this on EPAC it would have generated discussion for a week or more. Do you have a photo of the ad in question?

Yet There is Breaking news, right now on this site, from Mr.Cerniglia that Dr.Berrys was the ONLY product that used this jar and contained Mercury. NOT TRUE!  I am not sure if the theory is if it's repeated long enough it makes it true. How many times has he told this to some gullible reporter?

- I said it was the only product that we know contained mercury that was also sold in the same style jar.  If the media reported otherwise, it was not what I stated, but I believe they quoted me exactly in this instance. Your statement above appears to distort what the media stated by conflating two separate stories into one.  Ric asked me to prepare a summary of what we had learned recently, and I complied with his request.

How many news stories have been done stating the same.
So the Mr C. is to this day putting out incorrect information in press releases and interviews possibly. Not good.

- See above. I stand behind my statements.


In the beginning of this thread it was suggested that the example be tested for mercury on any residue remaining. Ric said there was no residue to test for mercury.
So there is no residue, but finally 2 years later the glass is tested for mercury? If there is no residue, how can the glass itself show mercury?

A scientist, Greg George from Sherry Labs in Oklahoma, read the story about the freckle ointment and stated in a comment thread on the Discovery website that further testing we had neither considered nor known was possible could be conducted.  I contacted Greg, and the result is what you have heard.  You'll be hearing much more soon.  We've collected much new information, thanks to Greg.  This is the scientific method, slow, laborious and deliberative, but it works.  We as TIGHAR researchers don't claim to know everything when we release information.  You're watching the process unfold and, we hope, assisting us as well.

Glass is inert, and I do not believe it absorbs the surrounding elements.

- Greg informed us, in some cases, it does absorb some surrounding elements.  More later.

But it took all this time to test it?
And it was tested by a guy who just happened to hear the story and took it upon himself to do some testing?

- I know it may be a surprise to you, but this really happened. 

I understand budget constraints, but seems like the artifact evidence is being analyzed haphazardly, if at all, some by volunteers who happen to read a news story. Some by Tighar forum members.

- We're not NASA or the CIA. What you stated is true, except for the haphazard part. We're dedicated people doing the best we can.

I think all the science should be done professionally, and an exhaustive search done for any clear bottles

- Do you believe we're not trying?

, also testing to find whether an opaque bottle heated to near red changes color(not just relying on the word of a glass collector), and finally any other known examples shared with the public as well.
Like I said, I understand budget constraints, this is being done on a shoestring compared to the navy sponsoring Dr.Ballard,  but It took Joe.C two years to find the above ad from National Druggist in 1921 that this jar was produced in opaque only?

- Incorrect. I found that National Druggist ad in early 2011, a few days after spotting the freckle ointment as a possible match to the jar, and I then shared it with EPAC.  TIGHAR shares its most relevant findings from EPAC, but we couldn't possibly share every discussion, observation or research work we generate. The EPAC, upon seeing the ads, came to a somewhat different conclusion than you did concerning this ad.

I have been looking at jars for a week and found these same references in Google books.
So not to discredit Mr.Cerniglias work, he is probably working for nothing, but a lot of press releases were made that this was the only bottle found that matched this shape, now it's released to the public, Dr.Berrys was the only bottle found of this shape that had mercury.
It seems like folks wanted to believe something and released it as news, because neither of those press releases were exactly correct.
Now, like the movie JFK, the internet stories have been done with an incorrect version of the truth. you can't take it back. There are a lot of people out there who think that absolutely a mercury containing freckle cream from Dr.Berrys has been found with an exact bottle that matched the time of the flight.
Not proven. Do the science right, take your time, then do the press release.

- I believe this is precisely what we are trying to do.

Just my opinion and probably not a popular one, so shoot away.
I still believe Gardner is it based on the radio transmits, but this glass stuff was put out way too early before testing and exhaustive archive research and it creates a perception that may be invalid, and once that perception is put out there by NBC, CNN, Discovery, its tough to modify it.
Otherwise, if new information does come up, it looks like Tighar wasnt professional or thorough enough and raises credibility doubts.

- If we waited until we had perfect knowledge, the public would lose interest and TIGHAR's mission would weaken and wane. True, a balance must be found between anxiously reporting too soon and waiting too long. TIGHAR is not supported by the government or by foundations but by people like you and me. I think it strikes the right balance.

(Not from me I hasten to add, but there are rumblings out there even Ric  and Tighar members are keenly aware of).

- I hope I've responded to some of the rumblings.  I agree you are probably not the only individual who has felt or voiced these concerns.  I hope that this message might provide some alternative points of view for you to consider.

Joe Cerniglia
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #257 on: September 26, 2012, 10:35:09 PM »

Hello All,

This is my first post to the Amelia Earhart Search Forum.  I should introduce myself briefly by saying I've been a member of the Earhart Project Advisory Committee for more than 2 years.

http://tighar.org/wiki/Earhart_Project_Advisory_Committee

I'm pretty sure that Alan Caldwell is no longer an editor of the Wiki as stated at the above link.

gl

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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #258 on: September 26, 2012, 10:43:49 PM »

I'm pretty sure that Alan Caldwell is no longer an editor of the Wiki as stated at the above link.

I created a lot of people as editors when I set up the wiki, hoping that they would, in fact, contribute to it.

Alan still has an account with editing privileges.
LTM,

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Gary LaPook

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #259 on: September 26, 2012, 11:05:33 PM »

I'm pretty sure that Alan Caldwell is no longer an editor of the Wiki as stated at the above link.

I created a lot of people as editors when I set up the wiki, hoping that they would, in fact, contribute to it.

Alan still has an account with editing privileges.


Well then, just don't expect him to do much editing, see below from the Texas State Bar.

---------------------------------------------------------


photo of Lawyer
Mr. Alan L. 'Al' Caldwell

    Bar Card Number: 03614800
    Work Address: 108 Pheasant Trail

    Bastrop, TX 78602
    Work Phone Number: 512-321-8060
    Primary Practice Location: Bastrop , Texas

Current Member Status
    Deceased
-------------------------------------------------------


gl
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 11:07:37 PM by Gary LaPook »
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Alan Harris

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #260 on: September 27, 2012, 02:23:04 AM »

Just to address a couple of things that immediately caught attention:

You should provide more evidence of your claim the jar could not have been made after World War I. The only thing a 1918 trade journal ad with opal jars proves is the jar was made in 1918. Any one-year source has little meaning for any other year.

To be more accurate, we have a continuous 5-year series of ads in that trade journal, from 1918 to 1922, that state "Ointment Pots . . . in Opal Glass Only".  In 1917 that journal had no Hazel-Atlas ad.  In 1916 and earlier, by spot checks, the ad says "Opal, Flint, and Amber Glass".

Additional ads for 1923 and later have not been examined to date because copyright restrictions apparently prohibit posting the full-text journal contents from those later years.  This can be approached both by searching for other sources not so restricted and/or by visiting libraries to view paper originals.  We are aware of several other journals and publications that carried Hazel-Atlas ads.

The above addresses only the specific data with which I have personally been involved.  I believe Dave Burrell may have additional information relating to production of opal and clear glass in the years between WW1 and 1935.

Quote
The older it is, the lower the odds the castaway brought the jar, but unless the jar was made after spring 1940, those odds never reach zero.

Could you please clarify the "spring 1940" as opposed to May 1937?  I assume that is intended to include the widest possible range of arrival times for the skeleton reported to Gallagher (even though the bones appeared several years old when discovered)?
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #261 on: September 27, 2012, 05:15:03 AM »

To be more accurate, we have a continuous 5-year series of ads in that trade journal, from 1918 to 1922, that state "Ointment Pots . . . in Opal Glass Only".  In 1917 that journal had no Hazel-Atlas ad.  In 1916 and earlier, by spot checks, the ad says "Opal, Flint, and Amber Glass".
Alan, I appreciate the research. I can find 3 ads that have been attached from prior posts in this thread. Two of them, which you cited, are on this page

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,261.180.html

One of the ads, which has a file name stating it is from 1916, does not picture our ointment jar. A narrow interpretation of this particular ad might suggest they were referring only to those jars pictured, not to our ointment jar style. The other ad in this set is from 1918.

There are other ads mentioned, but not attached. For the sake of completeness, I think it would be useful that documents be attached. You're asking many people to take your word in citing these others. Even so, I'm certainly willing to believe you saw these, since I saw a number of these myself and remarked upon them to the EPAC in early 2011.

There is another ad from December 1921 that Randy Conrad found.  This jar is on this page:

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,261.165.html

As of now, to the best of my knowledge from what I can see digging back into this thread, there are two verified drawings in ads from National Druggist that match the artifact jar in style.  One is from 1918.  The other is from 1921.

Bill Lockhart, who is an archaeologist with a specialty in 20th Century bottles, said yesterday to the EPAC: "Any one-year source has little meaning for any other year -- and possibly not even for all of that year." I hope he will not mind me quoting him in this instance.

It would be safe to say, I think, that we have all found the process of identifying exactly what Hazel-Atlas was doing with glass in specific periods of the Twentieth Century to be a fairly daunting exercise.

By applying this reasoning from Bill, we can say for certain that Hazel-Atlas, for all or perhaps part of these 2 discrete years, was offering the jar in opal (white) glass only. I certainly agree white glass was popular.  In two years of searching, I've been able to find only one example of the jar in clear transparent glass. After comparing this clear example with the artifact jar, the glass from the clear jar does not seem a good visual match to the glass in the artifact jar. We're still finishing up analyzing our lab work on the artifact jar.  We have the complete elemental breakdown of the glass that may tell us more.

The above addresses only the specific data with which I have personally been involved.  I believe Dave Burrell may have additional information relating to production of opal and clear glass in the years between WW1 and 1935.

I haven't seen this information. Perhaps I missed it. I would be interested in any information anyone has relating to these production dates that specifically addresses what type of glass was offered by Hazel-Atlas in these years 1922 to 1937. I have located and printed all of the Sears Catalog jars in a binder and have found this style of jar was not offered in the catalog after spring 1933.

Additional ads for 1923 and later have not been examined to date because copyright restrictions apparently prohibit posting the full-text journal contents from those later years.  This can be approached both by searching for other sources not so restricted and/or by visiting libraries to view paper originals.  We are aware of several other journals and publications that carried Hazel-Atlas ads.

That was my understanding as well. I have not had the time either to find and visit a library that would have these. I will be in Corning, New York this weekend and may be able to check the glass museum library there.



Could you please clarify the "spring 1940" as opposed to May 1937?  I assume that is intended to include the widest possible range of arrival times for the skeleton reported to Gallagher (even though the bones appeared several years old when discovered)?


The thirteen human bones, including a human skull, were discovered on the island in spring 1940.  A good chronology of this event is here:

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Bones_Chronology.html

You are correct that in the interest of objectivity I provided the 1940 date to include the widest possible times for the castaway's presence.

I should probably try to be concise in my posts, but we have a lot of research from many different people, both here and on the EPAC. By pooling our efforts, we might be able to discover some facts we did not know before. Again, I appreciate the effort of you and the others. We're all on the same team here. Let's work together.

Joe Cerniglia
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #262 on: September 27, 2012, 06:17:03 AM »

Mr. Alan L. 'Al' Caldwell
Current Member Status
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May he rest in peace.  He was a great contributor. 

I don't see any traffic in the EPAC group about his death.

LTM,

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Bob Lanz

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #263 on: September 27, 2012, 07:43:14 AM »


We're still finishing up analyzing our lab work on the artifact jar.  We have the complete elemental breakdown of the glass that may tell us more.

Joe, I would be very interested if that analysis will tell us whether there is Selenium, Manganese or Tin Oxide in the elemental breakdown.  I believe that is the "Holy Grail" as to dating the jar.  Would you be revealing that anytime soon?  Thx
Doc
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« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 09:23:44 AM by Bob Lanz »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #264 on: September 27, 2012, 08:24:14 AM »

I have to say I enjoyed Joe Cerniglia's rare posts here for reasons of technical thought and reasoned application, fairness and balance of approaches to research and publicity (realities for an outfit like ours) and spirit of common purpose.  Suddenly I realize he's an example of one who's labored a great deal more than we tend to realize because he doesn't wade into this forum fray so much.  In fact his first two posts seem to have only just appeared.

Joe is one of our most dogged and productive researchers.  He was hesitant to join the forum fray, in part because of the hostility that sometimes mars these otherwise civil discussions, but also because of the time it takes.  I'm delighted that Joe has taken the field.  Thanks Joe.
I've attached a photo of Joe and a friend at last year's Amelia Earhart Festival in Atchison, KS.
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #265 on: September 27, 2012, 08:29:28 AM »

Bob,

Thanks for your interest.  Greg George, a research chemist who works for a reputable aerospace engineering lab, has graciously volunteered to interpret our results free of charge and out of courtesy and regard for him and some others who are helping out I don't wish to release any information of that sort before he and they have had ample opportunity to complete their work and subject it to vetting from the EPAC.

I would caution, however, that while interesting results can often be obtained from this type of glass analysis, the Holy Grail that admits no room for debate - in any aspect of this Project - is very difficult to obtain. Having said this, the analysis is still, in my opinion, well worth doing. 

Rest assured, everything will be made available as soon as we feel confident we have a better grasp of what we got, probably in a few weeks. We need to avoid any perception of haphazardness.

(Thanks for the encomium, Ric.)

Joe Cerniglia
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #266 on: September 27, 2012, 09:17:14 AM »

Many thanks Joe.
Woody (former 3316R)
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« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 09:13:51 AM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
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dave burrell

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #267 on: September 27, 2012, 02:36:26 PM »

Bob,

Thanks for your interest.  Greg George, a research chemist who works for a reputable aerospace engineering lab, has graciously volunteered to interpret our results free of charge and out of courtesy and regard for him and some others who are helping out I don't wish to release any information of that sort before he and they have had ample opportunity to complete their work and subject it to vetting from the EPAC.

I would caution, however, that while interesting results can often be obtained from this type of glass analysis, the Holy Grail that admits no room for debate - in any aspect of this Project - is very difficult to obtain. Having said this, the analysis is still, in my opinion, well worth doing. 

Rest assured, everything will be made available as soon as we feel confident we have a better grasp of what we got, probably in a few weeks. We need to avoid any perception of haphazardness.

(Thanks for the encomium, Ric.)

Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078CER

Joe, isn't this the same Chemist that has already evaluated the artifact back in late July?
I remember it being tested for mercury, a facebook page of yours saying it was being tested around the last week of July, and then some mercury results coming in.
Does that sound about right to you?
If it's a different guy, sorry, just thought this testing was already done.
Not asking for specifics of his work, just is this the same man, performing additional testing?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 02:41:49 PM by dave burrell »
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #268 on: September 27, 2012, 04:29:51 PM »

The situation with the testing and the chronology of the testing is understandably confusing, and I'm happy to have the chance to help explain what has been going on. As the media reported it, the new round of testing was prompted by Greg George for the reasons I stated.  This was a true statement, and was not meant to imply that Greg personally did this lab work.  He did not, and I indicated this in my summary at the time.  Instead, TIGHAR contracted with Evans Analytical Group for this work. Evans was most helpful to us as in its past work with the Campana Italian Balm bottle. Greg was and is providing outstanding service to TIGHAR in the interpretation of the results of this work and for the experimental design as well.

Even with all of this excellent support both in and outside the lab, designing the most effective tests for extracting and analyzing surface material from a decades-old jar that has been sitting on an equatorial island for decades is challenging and a story unto itself.  I know of no textbooks for how to do this with certainty. I won't tire you with the details of this here, but I can tell you it was a multi-stage process of trial and error that we had to adapt to the situations as we went along. In experiments of this nature, choices must be made at every step of the way.  The shape of the glass, the need for adequate controls, the need to conserve the piece properly while still extracting data from it - all these entered into the equation. One needs to know before the experiment is even started how one is going to interpret every contingency, and be prepared for possible disappointment at every moment.  Getting the media to report in this kind of detail is at this stage an unreasonable expectation.  I hope to share more detail to satisfy whatever curiosity that may exist about these experiments. I want to do that as soon as I can review everything we think we have learned. 

I will add that we have additional experiments to run as controls on our work to try to ensure that we are observing what we think we're observing, and even to attempt to disprove what we think we're observing, if we can accomplish this.  Whichever way these experiments go, we will keep everyone informed.

We would like when we are finished to try to satisfy the demands and questions posed by this article I will pass along to you and the group.

http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm

I would be most grateful if when this process of testing the jar is fully complete you and the rest could let us know if we met the test posed therein, or not. 

Joe Cerniglia
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Alan Harris

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #269 on: September 27, 2012, 04:56:09 PM »


Alan, I appreciate the research. I can find 3 ads that have been attached from prior posts in this thread . . . There are other ads mentioned, but not attached. For the sake of completeness, I think it would be useful that documents be attached. You're asking many people to take your word in citing these others. Even so, I'm certainly willing to believe you saw these, since I saw a number of these myself and remarked upon them to the EPAC in early 2011.  There is another ad from December 1921 that Randy Conrad found . . . As of now, to the best of my knowledge from what I can see digging back into this thread, there are two verified drawings in ads from National Druggist that match the artifact jar in style.  One is from 1918.  The other is from 1921 . . . By applying this reasoning from Bill, we can say for certain that Hazel-Atlas, for all or perhaps part of these 2 discrete years, was offering the jar in opal (white) glass only.
Joe, in my post you referenced, I was starting from Randy's post showing the 1921 ad and working backward, looking for the year that glass production changed from "Opal, Flint, and Amber" to "Opal Glass Only".  In my post I stated that "HA's ads for 1920, 1919, and 1918 are identical to the one Randy showed for 1921".  Literally identical, and it seemed silly to show multiple images of exactly the same thing.  I have since looked at 1922 also, and it is again the identical ad.  Hence my statement yesterday that there is a continuous series of the same "Opal Glass Only" ads for each year from 1918 to 1922 in The National Druggist.  I don't quite see how posting the same picture 5 times would provide convincing verification, so I respectfully suggest instead that those who wish to verify for themselves may go to the web site where I saw them.  Likewise for pre-1917, identical ads ran for several years and I imaged 1916 as a representative example.

Quote
Even so, I'm certainly willing to believe you saw these, since I saw a number of these myself and remarked upon them to the EPAC in early 2011 . . .

By pooling our efforts, we might be able to discover some facts we did not know before.
That's very interesting, would you care to share your findings with us as to what years they covered and whether they supplement, or possibly contradict, what has surfaced here in the forum so far?

Quote
One of the ads, which has a file name stating it is from 1916, does not picture our ointment jar. A narrow interpretation of this particular ad might suggest they were referring only to those jars pictured, not to our ointment jar style.
I understand what you're saying, however –and speaking for myself only– I find such a narrow interpretation much less plausible than that Hazel-Atlas was generally advertising their entire line of "Ointment Pots, Cold Cream Jars, and Patch Boxes".  Had the pre-1917 ad been intended to refer specifically to the four jars shown, it would have given identifying numbers for each, instead of inviting readers to ask for the "Druggist's Catalog".  And a much more telling sign of the ad's "generality" is that the illustrations do not even show a Patch Box, yet such Boxes are specifically included in the main header line.  (I believe "Hazel–No. 2" in the other, post-1917 ad series is in fact a Patch Box.)

Quote
I have located and printed all of the Sears Catalog jars in a binder and have found this style of jar was not offered in the catalog after spring 1933.
Throughout this exercise I have had to keep reminding myself that it is not known or proven that the artifact jar in fact contained the specific Dr. Berry's product that has been postulated.  So for precision I suppose it best to say that Sears after 1933 was selling Dr. Berry's in a different style jar (see, e.g., the '36-'37 Fall/Winter Sears catalog page) and, perhaps, sold no other product in Hazel-Atlas No. 1995 jars.  But Hazel-Atlas might well have still been producing that style.  I hasten to add that that does not in any way contradict your statement, I am just rehashing my own mental gyrations.   :)

Quote
I have not had the time either to find and visit a library that would have these.
I have in theory located a nearby source but, as luck would have it, those library collections are temporarily closed due to building renovations and relocation of materials.  Maybe someday.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 12:36:40 AM by Alan Harris »
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