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Author Topic: England or Newfoundland  (Read 7408 times)

Richard Lyon Metzger

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England or Newfoundland
« on: April 27, 2016, 07:24:52 PM »

Both......
England , trace the lower panel that was given to Mr. Martin and then to the factory and the letters detailing it movement. Possibly a needle in a haystack..
Newfoundland, Goose island (proper name) as there THREE ( 1 long) Gull Ponds on the island.
The pond had been inspected a few(sc) years back by Ric.
See the attached map.
The plane was modified to allow a water landing...I would question that since the propeller would hit the water.....
There is very strong evidence that a section of the lower rail panel was found in Goose Pond and sent back to England.
Ok, the boys either run out of gas or they miss-judge the altitude of the hills and try to make a water landing in the pond. They hit a "reef" and the panel is torn off and they either crash, (prop hitting the water) continue on or water land further south....highly unlikely...

I have been following the bits and pieces that have surfaced over the years.

N&C, forever together...

Richard Metzger
Lyon investigations, Inc.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2016, 01:18:57 PM »

Goose island (proper name) as there THREE ( 1 long) Gull Ponds on the island.

We'll continue to refer to it as The Gull Pond as do the folks who live on the Cape Shore. We know what pond we're talking about.

The plane was modified to allow a water landing...I would question that since the propeller would hit the water.....

The plane was not modified to allow a water landing.  L'Oisea Blance was a Levasseur PL-8, a modification of the PL-4, a French naval aircraft designed to be able to jettison it's undercarriage and land on water in an emergency.  The propeller could be "blipped" tp the horizontal position so as not to interfere.


Ok, the boys either run out of gas or they miss-judge the altitude of the hills and try to make a water landing in the pond. They hit a "reef" and the panel is torn off and they either crash, (prop hitting the water) continue on or water land further south....highly unlikely...

There is a witness account that suggests that the plane suffered a ruptured coolant pipe which would result in a seized engine and a forced landing. 

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pilotart

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2016, 02:52:04 PM »

Recently watched a PBS TV Nova program dealing with location of ancient sites frrom satellite data.

They apparently located a pre-Colombian Viking site (evidence of 'Iron smelting') and the location they were digging was apparently (looking on TV chart) just over the hill east of "The Gull Pond".

There may now be a second archaeological site to explore in that general area.

They mentioned the 'red-tape' involved in permitting for that 14 day dig...
Art Johnson
 
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Bill Mangus

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2016, 03:05:00 PM »

I also watched that program.  Here's the National Geographic site with the story and a map.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/03/160331-viking-discovery-north-america-canada-archaeology/

Bill Mangus
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2016, 03:39:58 PM »

They apparently located a pre-Colombian Viking site (evidence of 'Iron smelting') and the location they were digging was apparently (looking on TV chart) just over the hill east of "The Gull Pond".

Different location.  The Viking site is about 250 miles from the Gull Pond.

They mentioned the 'red-tape' involved in permitting for that 14 day dig...

I can attest to that.  You can't do anything archaeological in Newfoundland without hiring a Newfie archaeologist and the province won't let you keep anything you find.
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Richard Lyon Metzger

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2016, 05:57:14 PM »

Ric, the engine could not be blipped if it was seized...

The PL.8 also incorporated several safety features in case of ditching at sea. Apart from small floats attached directly to the undersides of the lower wing, the main units of the fixed tailskid undercarriage could be jettisoned on takeoff in order to reduce the aircraft's weight. The underside of the fuselage was given a boat-like shape and made watertight for a water landing. Nungesser and Coli's plan was to make a water landing in New York in front of the Statue of Liberty.

Richard Metzger
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Monty Fowler

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2016, 06:13:03 PM »

There is a witness account that suggests that the plane suffered a ruptured coolant pipe which would result in a seized engine and a forced landing.

Perhaps. The white smoke or vapor the witness reported could have come from other sources as well.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2016, 06:59:19 AM »

The white smoke or vapor the witness reported could have come from other sources as well.

Such as????  Do you have a particular hypothesis for the source of "white smoke" or are you just trolling?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2016, 07:08:40 AM »

Ric, the engine could not be blipped if it was seized...

Good point.  They would either have to shut down and blip the prop horzontal before the engine seized (knowing it would soon seize anyway) or trust to luck that it would seize at the right moment.  Even it the prop ended up in the wrong position, they would have to land and deal with the consequences.

The PL.8 also incorporated several safety features in case of ditching at sea. Apart from small floats attached directly to the undersides of the lower wing, the main units of the fixed tailskid undercarriage could be jettisoned on takeoff in order to reduce the aircraft's weight. The underside of the fuselage was given a boat-like shape and made watertight for a water landing. Nungesser and Coli's plan was to make a water landing in New York in front of the Statue of Liberty.

Again, the PL8 was a modification of the PL4.  The PL4 had wingtip floats.  The PL8 did not.  The watertight, boat-like hull was a standard feature of the PL4. The photo shows a PL4 taking off from a French aircraft carrier.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2016, 08:08:15 AM »

The white smoke or vapor the witness reported could have come from other sources as well.

Such as????  Do you have a particular hypothesis for the source of "white smoke" or are you just trolling?

Every air show I've ever been to that involved aerobatics has also involved white smoke, coming from aircraft, as a tracking aid. You can argue the fine point of whether the smoke involved is white, very light gray, or whatever, but it is, in the general sense of the word, "white."

That's my hypothesis, supported by eyewitness, real world observation, which is what I understand this report about the White Bird making white smoke is also based on. Although I have seen this multiple times, as opposed to the one-off of the White Bird observation.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 08:20:01 AM by Monty Fowler »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2016, 08:26:30 AM »

Every air show I've ever been to that involved aerobatics has also involved white smoke, coming from aircraft, as a tracking aid.

Airshow "smoke" is created by injecting oil into the exhaust manifold.  As far as I know there was no plan for the White Bird to do an aerobatic show over the Statue of Liberty and I'm aware of no evidence that the aircraft had an airshow smoke system.

You can argue the fine point of whether the smoke involved is white, very light gray, or whatever, but it is, in the general sense of the word, "white."

All we have is the witness' statement that he saw "an aircraft on fire trailing white smoke."  If you look at WWII gun camera footage you'll see that burning aircraft spew black smoke.  When bullets rupture the coolant system of a liquid cooled fighter (P-51, Spitfire, Hurricane, Bf-109, etc.) you see a sudden cloud of white steam.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2016, 05:09:48 PM »

I don't think the White Bird had an airshow smoke system either. I was pointed out another equally valid source for the "white smoke" this witness said he saw.

After this many years, I don't see how anyone can definitively say it was white smoke, white steam, or something else issuing from the White Bird at that particular time, nor can anyone say definitely what may have followed after that. We can speculate, sure, but that's all we can do with the scant information available.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2016, 08:14:05 AM »

After this many years, I don't see how anyone can definitively say it was white smoke, white steam, or something else issuing from the White Bird at that particular time, nor can anyone say definitely what may have followed after that.

Nobody has claimed to definitely know anything. This is an investigative process.  We look at the available evidence and try to come up with rational explanations.  We look for patterns so that we can develop hypotheses we can then test.  If the "white smoke" was, in fact, steam, the aircraft would have to make a forced landing.  Reports of an aircraft wreck on the Cape Shore peninsula in the immediate vicinity of where the "aircraft on fire" was reportedly seen, seem to support the possibility that the White Bird suffered a coolant failure and crashed during an attempted forced landing.  That's a testable hypothesis.  What's yours?

I was pointed out another equally valid source for the "white smoke" this witness said he saw.

By all means enlighten us.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2016, 06:27:46 AM »

The white smoke could have come from a small oil leak, which, depending on how small it was, could have been an immediate get-on-the-ground NOW emergency or something they felt they could deal with until they found a better place to put down.

As far as hypothesis, there are reports of odd, unexplained flares and other things in the back country of Canada along what could have been the White Bird's flight path, at that time, if they were off course and the ground was largely fogged in, which I believe it was that day. Which is where the aircraft might have ended up. Which is an equally valid and testable hypothesis, based on the available information.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: England or Newfoundland
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2016, 08:23:00 AM »

The white smoke could have come from a small oil leak, which, depending on how small it was, could have been an immediate get-on-the-ground NOW emergency or something they felt they could deal with until they found a better place to put down.

An oil leak dripping oil onto a hot exhaust manifold could create white smoke, but it seems like a leak big enough to create the impression that the airplane was on fire would be enough to warrant an immediate landing. 

As far as hypothesis, there are reports of odd, unexplained flares and other things in the back country of Canada along what could have been the White Bird's flight path, at that time, if they were off course and the ground was largely fogged in, which I believe it was that day.

Not in Newfoundland.

Which is where the aircraft might have ended up. Which is an equally valid and testable hypothesis, based on the available information.

Go right ahead.  Let us know what you find out.
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