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Author Topic: The Dado  (Read 21354 times)

Mark Pearce

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The Dado
« on: March 08, 2014, 10:09:27 PM »

Has the Sydney Island C-47 crash been ruled out as a likely source for the dado?

Some type of fabric was riveted to the piece. and the write up at the bottom here mentions "the famous dark green (Skyfelt or Seapak) that was seen in many military aircraft during world war two."

Decent photos at the link just below- of the ca. 1944 C-47 in the Alberta Aviation Museum-  show many areas lined with this material.  This may be the only C-47 with an original interior. 

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/23736/index.html

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/43_DadoPart1/43_Dado1.html
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2014, 08:27:17 AM »

Has the Sydney Island C-47 crash been ruled out as a likely source for the dado?

Some type of fabric was riveted to the piece. and the write up at the bottom here mentions "the famous dark green (Skyfelt or Seapak) that was seen in many military aircraft during world war two."


The introduction to that Research Bulletin written by the late Frank Lombardo cautions that it contains some errors.  The fragment of fabric found on the artifact (and unfortunately later lost by the NTSB Lab) was blue, not green.

And of course we have since realized that the artifact is not a"dado" at all. It appears to have been an insulated free-standing structure nailed to a wooden surface. We think it may have been a heat shield.  See The Un-Dados and Detective Story

I'm aware of no such structures in a C-47.
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Doug Ledlie

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2014, 07:09:32 PM »

Given the confirmed B-24 related remnants already found on Gardner, I keep coming back to the C-87 44-23903 (which of course was a B-24 transport variant made on same production line) that crashed off Canton Island as a possible source for the dado/heat shield or whatever the thing is.

I think its largely because of the fabric fragment and the C-87 in this crash being in personnel carrying mode and likely finished inside to a degree not seen in a regular B-24 (was carrying 5 crew and 16 passengers)
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19430207-3

Various photos of C-87 here: http://www.sandiegoairandspace.org/collections/collection_index.php?id=3
added Mar 22 - photos mentioned in link immediately above available here: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=consolidated%20c-87

A couple interior shots from above link attached

P.S. C-87 has a bunch of side windows not present in B-24 that could also be a source of the Plexiglas fragment I s'pose....
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 08:05:48 AM by Doug Ledlie »
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Doug Ledlie

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2014, 07:09:19 AM »

Follow-up:
The number 44-23903 for this C-87 fits in the production run amongst conventional B-24D numbers:

B-24D list here  http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b24_9.html
C-87 list here  http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b24_26.html

So the C-87 may also be the most likely source of the bookcase found on Gardner which carried a B-24D part number

As discussed here (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,390.0.html) the parties to the discussion in the string were only considering the B-24J wreck at Canton which probably "wouldn't/shouldn't" have the D version bookcase
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2014, 08:06:40 AM »

So the C-87 may also be the most likely source of the bookcase found on Gardner which carried a B-24D part number

As discussed here (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,390.0.html) the parties to the discussion in the string were only considering the B-24J wreck at Canton which probably "wouldn't/shouldn't" have the D version bookcase

That's an excellent observation Doug.  How much do we know about the C-87 loss at Canton? (Sorry, I've lost track of where it was mentioned). I don't think there is a surviving example of a C-87.  If there was, somebody would have "restored" it as a B-24.  C-87s are max un-sexy.  However, the Air Force Museum has a B-24D we can look at.
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Doug Ledlie

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2014, 08:21:18 AM »

Ric, should be able to find out a fair bit about the C-87 loss as Tighar appears to hold a copy of the 20 page crash investigation report.

http://tighar.org/wiki/Kanton_(Canton)_Island

Any chance of finding that and posting? (I hope your filing system isn't like mine ie a big pile)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 08:26:20 AM by Doug Ledlie »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2014, 08:41:56 AM »

Ric, should be able to find out a fair bit about the C-87 loss as Tighar appears to hold a copy of the 20 page crash investigation report.

http://tighar.org/wiki/Kanton_(Canton)_Island

Any chance of finding that and posting? (I hope your filing system isn't like mine ie a big pile)

That's the problem with a 25 year project.  You collect tons of material because it may come in useful some day, then you forget you have it.  I did find the report.  I'll scan it and post it when I get time but, basically, the plane flew into the ocean during a night approach, apparently because they didn't have a current altimeter setting. The C-87 hit the water "about one mile to one mile and a half out from the reef."  It sank "immediately" and was never recovered. (The water that far out would be thousands of feet deep.) Only three of the twenty-one people aboard were thrown clear and survived.  The rest went down with the plane.  The co-pilot was one of the survivors.  He said the airspeed was 130 mph on the approach.

Based on the accident report, I doubt that any part of the plane ever ended up on Canton, let alone Gardner.
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Doug Ledlie

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2014, 09:50:35 AM »

Thanks Ric, I had seen a mention somewhere here that the C-87 in question sank quickly but what I'm wondering about really is:
quoting myself

Quote
Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1

« Reply #605 on: March 18, 2014, 08:48:07 AM »
- B-24's seem to be noted as likely to break apart in a predictable pattern notably immediately aft of the wings
in shall we say off-nominal landings/ditchings (ie Atka Island, Lady Be Good)

- If the C-87 broke up in the usual fashion, could the now exposed interior side of a section of 0.032 skin be exposed
to hydraulic forces (ie impact with water) that might provide similar features to 2-2-v-1?

- Accident report may note note how/if plane broke up

- Not sure about bouyancy but if there were attached empty o2 tanks in the area as in a B-24 or other floatables, who
knows what was recovered when the survivors were picked up or what washed ashore later...


Thinking if this C-87 had the "fancy" interior (including Kapok insulation which I assume to be buoyant ie life preserver?) and if it broke up in the usual fashion, there is at least a good possibility, maybe even likelyhood for "floaters" with relatively light bits and pieces of structure or interior fixtures attached.

I think one of the photos in the link above shows the nav station and it appears to be just ahead of the cargo bay/passenger compartmentimmediately in front of the wings...so bookcase may have been in general area of where fuselage break up may have happened (if it did in fact break up)

All just hypothetical for discussion of course

I also have an anecdotal only reference to another C-87 loss at Canton, in 1945 I think, will find that and post
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 06:01:42 PM by Doug Ledlie »
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2014, 10:02:54 AM »

If Craig Fuller still provides these WW2 accident reports to Tighar, maybe he can find the full report on the B-17E that crashed on Canton Island, June 22, 1942.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Highlights1_20/highlights2.html

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=97341
Date: 22-JUN-1942
Type: Boeing B-17E Flying Fortress
Owner/operator: United States Army Air Force (USAAF)
Registration: 41-9208

Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: Short of Rwy, Canton Island, PAC -    Pacific Ocean 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 10:13:22 AM by Mark Pearce »
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Doug Ledlie

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2014, 10:56:31 AM »

Quote
I also have an anecdotal only reference to another C-87 loss at Canton, in 1945 I think, will find that and post

The other C-87 loss at Canton mentioned was apparently on May 10/44

http://books.google.ca/books?id=YbefAXLgqbMC&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=c-87+liberator+canton&source=bl&ots=8Pf69EOdAy&sig=n3lVpG9YPOa57vaJYtKQll_d5fg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qL4tU5hZhL2qAZbBgbgB&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=c-87%20liberator%20canton&f=false

Maybe we can find independent confirmation of that loss
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2014, 02:23:08 PM »

Date: 22-JUN-1942
Type: Boeing B-17E Flying Fortress
Owner/operator: United States Army Air Force (USAAF)
Registration: 41-9208
Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: Short of Rwy, Canton Island, PAC -    Pacific Ocean

If this is the correct identification of the B-17 in question Mark then I recall a few months back seeing a photograph of it at Hickam Field. It had a chequered career including a previous crash at Port Moresby I think. I'll go through the archives later to see what I can dig up.
This must be the place
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2014, 07:30:13 PM »

This is a photograph of the B-17E 41-9208 which crashed short of the runway on the approach to canton.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kemon01/11660204353/

"In the foreground is Boeing B-17E Fortress 41-9208, which was delivered on May 20, 1942 and was assigned to the 19th BG at Hickham, Hawaii on June 7, 1942. It crashed on take-off at Port Moresby on September 19, 1942 and was reportedly salvaged."

The date we have for the crash at Canton is given as 22nd June 1942 so the "crashed on take-off at Port Moresby on September 19, 1942 and was reportedly salvaged." seems inaccurate but warrants further investigation. Anyway here's the photo...



This must be the place
 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 07:33:19 PM by Jeff Victor Hayden »
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2014, 08:03:34 PM »

Stranger and stranger. From the book "B-17 Flying Fortress Units of the Pacific War By Martin W. Bowman"

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ajQgDfPxKYYC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=B-17E+41-9208&source=bl&ots=z3BwokeECO&sig=z1tCkhO_a8abDAs4tqtn6_H49Jg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hDouU8TFCsyYhQfP5IGQAQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=B-17E%2041-9208&f=false

An interesting aerial photograph of the USAAF bombing the runway at Lae if you scroll down as well.

"A rare Douglas DC-5 transport departs port Moresby on 19th august 1942 while B-17s 41-9208 (foreground) and 41-2659 Frank Buck 'Bring Em' Back Alive' of the 28th BS/19th BG are prepared for their next mission. 41-9208 crashed on take-off from Port Moresby on 19th September 1942 and as wrecked.

Same photograph as previous post, same date for crash, 19th September 1942, same place Port Moresby, one claims it was salvaged one claims it was wrecked (beyond repair?).
Point is, it was supposed to have crashed at Canton Island on 22nd June 1942, 3 months prior to these claims of a crash on 19th September 1942 and, the photo being taken on 19th August 1942. Something amiss here?

This must be the place
 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 12:10:26 AM by Jeff Victor Hayden »
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2014, 08:09:04 PM »

Very interesting Jeff.  As in the case of the 'Japanese Mavis,' it appears we have another mystery that needs to be cleared up!  Thanks for looking into this. 
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Brad Beeching

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Re: The Dado
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2014, 08:40:34 PM »

As far as B-24's are concerned, I believe the Commemorative Air Force's B-24 "Diamond Lil" started life as an LB-30/C87. They may have documentation that may prove useful...
Brad

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