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Author Topic: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro  (Read 39467 times)

william patterson

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 07:28:04 AM »

Jeff after re-reading Rics description, and your thoughts, you may indeed be better tuned to the explanation suggested.
Viewing the kite photo, the light blue ocean starts half way up the groove zone. It doesn't get deep blue until the end of the spur and groove area..
So it could very well be the second half of the spur area is the area of 20  foot water, dropping to 60 foot water.
The first cliff could well be the end of the spur and groove area where Ric says it drops another 200 feet down to the 300 foot range.
300+ feet of water would fit nicely with the dark blue water shown just after the spur area.

Given that, then any spotting of wreckage would have to be before the first cliff, and indeed on the spur and groove section of reef. In fact, I think you are right in that Ric is referring to part of the spur and groove area as the unmapped area too dangerous to explore.

But that presents a problem, and you touched on it with Emily's description. Reading her words indicates to me she was describing rusty beam steel laying exposed at certain times of tide. Well that could not occur in 20 foot of water. If she was describing a wing sticking up, or a tail sticking up, then the majority of the attached superstructure could be in 20 feet of water.
However, It seems like she is describing something laying visible and relatively flat, a long rusty straight beam laying on rock quite exposed.
That would either be on the reef flat itself, or the first section of the spur and groove area. That would be quite shallow at times, perhaps a foot or three. A plane Fuselage wouldn't be hidden at any time in a foot or two of water at low tide.

So reading her description again sounds increasingly like norwich wreckage laying on the reef, in very shallow water less than 10 feet certainly, and  not in the 20-80 foot unmapped area.
At least that is the way I read her testimony.
Again, it doesn't mean there wasn't a plane even in 60 foot of water occassionally depositing a wing or skin.
It just means that from Emily's description she wasnt seeing huge sections of aircraft, or aircraft at all since she talks of beams laying  on rock. That all sounds very Norwich.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 08:03:44 AM by william patterson »
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william patterson

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 07:44:32 AM »

Nice photo woody and fits with Jeff's original thoughts that the rectangle section is still on the spur and groove section, though deeper water.
If that Hole is in 20-30 foot of water, and a plane ended there for a while, that all seems plausible.
It still doesn't seem to fit Emily's description in my opinion of  beams laying exposed.
She described beams "laying on Rock" only exposed at low tide, waves washing over it. Clearly this is the reef surface before a drop off.
That doesn't sound like a plane laying in a 20 foot deep hole, but laying on the reef surface itself or the first section of Spur and Groove where it is shallow.

 I am still with the possibility the rectangle may have held a plane for a while, I just don't think that is what Emily spotted.
Perhaps other islanders did spot something different than Emily, so while there may be legitimate spottings of stuck plane wreckage, and Emily may have heard those oral traditions of plane wreckage,
I don't think Emily's testimony fits with a plane stuck in a deep hole in the Spur and Groove area.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 07:59:45 AM by william patterson »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 12:53:26 PM »

Of course, without some independent scale, probably no-one would dare suggest that this shape might be a propeller. After all, there are still two missing.
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« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 12:57:38 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 01:05:06 PM »

Or Nessie, Revisited?

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richie conroy

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 04:35:12 PM »

Of course, without some independent scale, probably no-one would dare suggest that this shape might be a propeller. After all, there are still two missing.


If that was a propeller blade it would be the size of actual wingspan of Electra, Like you say scale is always an issue however if you go on Google earth an select ruler then select your preferred measurement ruler I.E miles meters inches etc obviously you need to know at what distance you are from reef surface to make it work.

One thing is bugging me if the Electra is resting somewhere in an area directly under nessie, If the accounts of possible wing debris are to be believed at entrance to lagoon how would it pass the rear end of NC ?

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Tim Mellon

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 05:42:17 PM »

One thing is bugging me if the Electra is resting somewhere in an area directly under nessie, If the accounts of possible wing debris are to be believed at entrance to lagoon how would it pass the rear end of NC ?

Tides, Northwest wind forces, scavengers, greedy crabs,...
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Greg Daspit

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 06:26:52 PM »

If the accounts of possible wing debris are to be believed at entrance to lagoon how would it pass the rear end of NC ?
I always figured it would pass in front of the Norwich City during high tides. Mainly because I suspected the aircraft skin artifact TIGHAR found washed up or uncovered after a storm didn't float to the village area but was pushed there, because it didn't seem like it could float. Pushed across the reef.
This article has some currents shown and I can see where it may go around the back. In that case the N.C. could have stopped stuff, more so before its stern fell off.
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« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 06:36:44 PM by G. Daspit »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 06:42:38 PM »

...obviously you need to know at what distance you are from reef surface to make it work.


Richie, do you know whether that kite had an altimeter?

Tim
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richie conroy

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2013, 07:00:47 PM »

I would imagine the kite only had a certain amount of tether so i guess Ric could answer this question.

As for sighting's am guessing the Bevington strut image, the parts of wing that was seen, along with the wheel that was spotted and the engine that possible was  air lifted to a Kanton dump site

Sort of makes sense, We have all the parts of a airplane wing possible tied down onto reef and then being snapped off by force.

I wonder if Jeff Glickman has been able to determine what side the strut is off ? 
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Dan Swift

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2013, 10:23:59 AM »

Debris that washed up on the lagoon shore in the '50's (such as fuel tanks).  What happened to that? 
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Ted G Campbell

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2013, 06:39:33 PM »

To all,

Reference to G. Daspit’s comments (reply #26) brings to mind a question re the N.C.  Have we looked underwater near the up-current side of the N.C. to see if any aircraft parts may have come to rest against the “dam” of the N.C.?

Ted Campbell
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Tim Mellon

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2013, 06:48:08 PM »

To all,

Reference to G. Daspit’s comments (reply #26) brings to mind a question re the N.C.  Have we looked underwater near the up-current side of the N.C. to see if any aircraft parts may have come to rest against the “dam” of the N.C.?

Ted Campbell

Yes, and for too many days. And "up-current" depends upon depth: near the surface the current runs from Northwest to Southeast, while at greater depth (900-1000 feet) the current runs in the opposite direction. My "observation" and "speculation" is that aircraft and ship debris are not intermixed.
Tim
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« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 07:04:05 PM by Tim Mellon »
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richie conroy

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2013, 07:59:19 PM »

Hi Ted G

Funny you should mention that, As there is a clip on the Finding Amelia 2012 video that shows NC debris, In this same clip there is a anomaly which i thought was the dead carcus of a fish. I Google planes underwater an found a similar object that was assumed to be dead fish which turned out to be shriveled plastic off dash board of a ww2plane
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2013, 08:02:28 PM »

Tim asks:

"Richie, do you know whether that kite had an altimeter?"

No, the kite camera did / does not have an altimeter.  Actually, it is an Olympus underwater / shockproof unit that does have a rough altimeter based upon ??, but I don't think that info is transferred to the photo, so in the end, no there is not any altimeter info available.

We probably had 2000 ft of kite line available, but in general most of the kite photography was taken from between 200 and 400 AGL.

Andrew
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: The Slope of the Reef around Nikumaroro
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2013, 08:09:52 PM »

Ted asks:

"Have we looked underwater near the up-current side of the N.C. to see if any aircraft parts may have come to rest against the “dam” of the N.C.?"

Tim refers to the deep water search of 2010, but also in 2001 we searched via SCUBA diving from the lading channel to near the NE tip of the island from the surf line to about 80 - 100 ft in depth, including all around the NC wreckage, so I'd say yes, we've covered the areas both "up and down current" from the NC.

Andrew
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