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In Reply #24 to the "Summary of Debris" thread, there is a scale for the picture of the scallop shell.

 2 centimeters
- 4 (25%)
 5 centimeters
- 4 (25%)
 8 centimeters
- 4 (25%)
13 centimeters
- 1 (6.3%)
18 centimeters
- 3 (18.8%)

Total Members Voted: 15


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Author Topic: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video  (Read 312377 times)

Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #360 on: January 10, 2013, 10:01:07 AM »

At frame 15, time 13:37:08 on the 2010 High Definition video, near the top of the view, I believe we are looking at the Grayce lubricating gun (P-600) listed as item #41 in the Luke Field Inventory.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #361 on: January 10, 2013, 01:38:37 PM »

The elevator has been the most elusive control surface: I think the pattern of holes in the lifting center section, which only moved when the elevators go up, and is outlined by the red lines, is what makes the identification possible. This detail is shown clearly in the Harney diagrams. The black rubber gravel guard is also visible on the leading edge (right side). The entire elevator is outlined in small green dots. Both left and right moving sections seem to be askew and torn away from the fixed section. From the 2010 High Definition video.
 
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« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 02:52:21 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #362 on: January 10, 2013, 02:35:09 PM »

Here is a (crude, I'm afraid) diagram of how the various Electra components are arranged over the landscape, as I have been able to interpret the scene. Top to bottom - Uphill to downhill - East to West.
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Will Hatchell

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #363 on: January 10, 2013, 04:21:06 PM »

Here is a (crude, I'm afraid) diagram of how the various Electra components are arranged over the landscape, as I have been able to interpret the scene. Top to bottom - Uphill to downhill - East to West.
Tim, this is a most instructive contribution you've provided, and I realize it represents a lot of time, study and organization to place these items into perspective. You may agree that some of the items appear to demonstrate a very rough spacial relationship, for example, the battery and hd radio, while others are chaotic, as to be expected given the likely scenario of just how the Electra broke apart and slide or tumbled down the reef slope. Although I can add very little to the understanding of the debris, I will ask a question of you: based on your obvious rather intensive study of the debris field and on this schematic, can you further enlighten us on what the topography is like immediately beneath and around the various components shown here? In other words, are we looking at some kind of catchment basin, submarine canyon or gully, or at any topographic constraints which might explain how the debris came to rest as shown? Thanks again for all your hard work and invaluable reporting to the forum!
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #364 on: January 10, 2013, 04:33:26 PM »



I also want to thank Tim - we don't have to agree on his ideas for me to be grateful that he had a great deal to do with us even having much of this footage to study.  I might move on to other things, but I am choosing to not be offended by his own explorations or activities either. 

Just my thoughts, others' MMV, of course.

With due respect Mr Nevill, I see no reason to thank Mr Mellon for his "observations" which at best can only be described as mischievous and at worse simply disruptive. I made my point plain in my post and he still continues to post his imaginary objects. This simply has added more dross to what was a very unhelpful and unproductive line of discussion to begin with.

TIGHAR's project is foundering in this silliness - where on the other hand your suggestion regarding more detailed investigation of the village site, in another thread, offers an intelligent approach to the quest. It is significant that the acknowledged TIGHAR visual image analysis expert Mr Glickman has said nothing about the veracity of these imaginary objects and I for one find his attitude more indicative of their reality than any other statements. I might also add that your post drawing attention to Dr King's paper offers a far productive line of discussion than unsupported claims regarding immersed banjos, toilet rolls and miraculously preserved bodies and I am sure many people thank you for that.  :)     
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #365 on: January 10, 2013, 04:36:42 PM »


I do share your concern that discussions of shapes seen in underwater video have come to dominate the forum.  Such discussions have value but there are many more of aspects of this immense project that need attention.  I'll open up a few new topics that I hope you and others will find worthy of attention.

Thank you Mr Gillespie for your reply - your promise to create some new threads which address more logical and productive lines of discussion is appreciated.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #366 on: January 10, 2013, 04:46:27 PM »

based on your obvious rather intensive study of the debris field and on this schematic, can you further enlighten us on what the topography is like immediately beneath and around the various components shown here? In other words, are we looking at some kind of catchment basin, submarine canyon or gully, or at any topographic constraints which might explain how the debris came to rest as shown?

Thanks, Hatch. From the limited perspectives offered by the various videos, 2010 and 2012, it appears to me that the wreckage lies in a fairly confined and quite steep gulch, with rises on both  sides, and perhaps a slight decrease in the degree of slope at the impact point. Again, whatever parts did not fall farther downhill I attribute to the fact that an aircraft is tied together by many cables, wires, hoses, conduits and the like. It seems to me that the aircraft might have remained essentially totally intact until it reached the bottom, rather than crumbling on a bouncy trip down the cliff. Perhaps the gulch was so narrow that the wings caught on each side to bring the plane to a halt. But these are purely my own subjective interpretations. YMMV.
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« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 04:59:29 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #367 on: January 10, 2013, 04:49:59 PM »

I made my point plain in my post and he still continues to post his imaginary objects.     

With all due respect, Mr. Kelly, I am not likely to consider you my boss.
Tim
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« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 05:44:17 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #368 on: January 10, 2013, 05:42:48 PM »

This thread started with a summary of the debris found in the debris field viewed in the 2010 High Definition video. It is updated here (through January 11, 2013) for the benefit of those who have joined the Forum more recently and were not aware of its existence.


Through the open pilot's hatch that I identified in Reply #35 to the "Landing near the Norwich" thread, I think I am able to identify the following instruments (see time 13:41:53, frame 12 of the subject video, upper righthand quadrant):

Eyebrow Panel -

   #9 Direction finding control apparatus (the reference number is to the Harney drawings)

   #4 Left and right thermocouple switches

 Main Panel -

   #4 Left and right manifold pressure guages

   #5 Left tachometer

   #11 Bank and turn indicator

   #12 Rate of climb

   #26 Autopilot RUD and AIL adjustment knobs

   #26 Autopilot directional gyro

   #16 Wing tanks fuel guage

   #25 Selector switch for wing tank guage

   #18 Sensitive altimeter

Knee panel -

    Ignition switches

    4 slots, 2 each for Throttle and Mixture levers, partially obscured by pilot's wheel

    Pilot's wheel is seen now to be in the neutral position, not turned 80 degrees to the right, as I thought several days ago.

    Western Electric 27A Remote main dial with
 
    FREQ knob (lower left) and AUDIO GAIN knob (lower right)


    2 of 5 toggle switches (REC/OFF and DAY/NITE)

    Co-pilot's wheel (not the Western Electric 9A Remote, as I originally thought, which was later found elsewhere)

    Pilot's seat cushion, which appears to have the standard "cut-out" in the middle of the forward edge (not shown in Harney drawing)

Aircraft exterior -

    The rectangular cover to the fueling port for the left forward cabin fuel tank can also be seen (faintly) aft of the rear edge of the open pilot's hatch.


I think the time has come to summarize the components that can be seen in the High Definition video from 2010. Starting with the various items in the cockpit, which I have included above by Quote from Reply #54, I can see:

 1. Top of right wing, with the numerals "0" and "2",

 2. Wingtip of right wing, with position light,

 3. Underside of left wing without aileron and right rudder (revised) 2010, and 2012

 4. Bottom of the star in the Lockheed logo from the outside of the right rudder Withdrawn: both rudders are elsewhere.

 5. Possible headset and wire seen as the "squiggle",

 6. HF antenna cable and insolators, 2010 and 2012

 7. Engine and propeller (John Balderston),

 8. Tailwheel and tailcone,

 9. Battery (probably auxiliary), 2010 and 2012,

10. Top of fuel tank with filler pipe from port in side of fuselage,

11. Landing gear assembly with upside-down fender in 2010 and 2012,

12. Numerous pieces of sheet metal evidencing man-made characteristics, such as straight edges, 90 degree corners, round holes, etc.

13. Co-pilot's windows

14. HF transmitter, tubes showing in 2010 and also in 2012

15. Fuselage fuel tank selector

16. Toilet compartment, with dorsal vent (not a "position light") in 2010 and again in 2012

17. Pelorus and Navigator's desk in 2010 and in 2012

18. A-7 Octant in 2010 and in 2012

19. Fred Noonan, Navigator

20. The Pilot

21. Sextant and triangle

22. Fuselage fuel tank

23. Severed hand

24. Key

25. Left rudder as seen in 2010 and again in 2012

26. Banjo with case, violin with case, and guitar

27. Five sacks of spare parts and bottles

28. Nose compartment

29. Second landing gear assembly, possibly the Bevington Object, as seen in 2010 and in 2012

30. Left shoe and right shoe

31. Spare tail wheel and tire (2012 only)

32. Kodak Duo Six-20 camera, with flash attachment in 2010 and flash attachment only in 2012

33. Bausch & Lomb Field Glasses in 2010 and in 2012

34. Bracelet with ridged panels

35. Fly swatter

36. Ballentine's Ale can and toilet paper rolls

37. Right rudder, including ground-adjustable trim tab

38. Grayce lubricating gun (P-600)

39. Elevator, including center lifting section

No doubt, there will be more to follow.

Tim
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« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 08:49:34 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #369 on: January 10, 2013, 07:21:27 PM »

I made my point plain in my post and he still continues to post his imaginary objects.     

With all due respect, Mr. Kelly, I am not likely to consider you my boss.

Then to reiterate your view you reposted what you imagine you saw back at the beginning of November - is that some sort of circular reasoning that adds veracity to what you claim to see?. There are far better things to do than to discuss your overactive imagination Mr Mellon. Banjos, miraculously preserved bodies, toilet rolls don't really add any credibility to TIGHAR's quest.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #370 on: January 10, 2013, 07:36:26 PM »

Banjos, miraculously preserved bodies, toilet rolls don't really add any credibility to TIGHAR's quest.

Does the credibility of TIGHAR's quest hinge on the opinions of the people who post to this forum?   I would hope that the credibility of TIGHAR's quest might be judged by the quality of the TIGHAR's research.
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #371 on: January 10, 2013, 09:31:45 PM »

Banjos, miraculously preserved bodies, toilet rolls don't really add any credibility to TIGHAR's quest.

Does the credibility of TIGHAR's quest hinge on the opinions of the people who post to this forum?   I would hope that the credibility of TIGHAR's quest might be judged by the quality of the TIGHAR's research.

In a way it does Mr Gillespie because many who might want to donate or help would probably do a bit of background research on the internet first and this site and its forum would pop up. What they would see is that a spirited and informed discussion of many issues and ideas has now simply become a long series of claims based on images posted with no scale, and worst still only the claims of the poster as to what they are. If even only one image was clearly an engine or an engine part, or an airframe part then that would be helpful but when these curious newcomers see claims for banjos, bodies, toilet rolls etc, in conditions where survival of organic material of that kind over the period of time required defies common sense then I know it would put me off. The background material on Earhart and the various reports by TIGHAR are the valuable things but posts that claim that banjos, bodies, toilet rolls etc. can be seen just make it seem amateurish silliness to me and I'm just an ordinary person with ordinary practical life experience and curiousity. It'd be a pity to see the TIGHAR search for Earhart scuttled because of this nonsense. The sort of nonsense that really makes a mockery of the work done by Dr King, the late Dr Burns and all the others who have contributed. I see there have been people who disagreed with some of that but they are all gone, and at least their views were based in real personal skills - but seeing banjos and toilet rolls is I am afraid just mocking that earlier work. So yes in a way it does throw a bad light on TIGHAR's research, because of the flippant manner in which it discounts without rhyme or reason previously advanced ideas. 
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john a delsing

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #372 on: January 10, 2013, 10:30:51 PM »

Dan,
   I think there are very many of us who feel the same. IMO Tighar was the best science org I had the privledge to follow. Not so anymore.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #373 on: January 11, 2013, 12:12:57 AM »

 :)
Dan,
   I think there are very many of us who feel the same. IMO Tighar was the best science org I had the privledge to follow. Not so anymore.

The very best science since Malthus, Mr. Delsing.

Tim
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« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 12:20:46 AM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #374 on: January 11, 2013, 06:24:39 AM »

This comparison of the center lifting section of the elevator, taken from the 2010 HD video (frame 18 at time 13:37:05), and the Harney drawing of the elevator area, provides the best opportunity, in my opinion, for the positive identification of an aircraft part that is likely quite unique to the Electra.

The four tiny red dots on the photo outline the area of the center lifting section. Although the part is covered partially by what looks like the gear at the end of the message line, enough of the surface of the elevator component can be seen to show the regular pattern of small holes drilled through the part (in its lower right-hand corner) to allow air to escape when the part returned to its stowed position.
Tim
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« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 08:15:51 AM by Tim Mellon »
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