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In Reply #24 to the "Summary of Debris" thread, there is a scale for the picture of the scallop shell.

 2 centimeters
- 4 (25%)
 5 centimeters
- 4 (25%)
 8 centimeters
- 4 (25%)
13 centimeters
- 1 (6.3%)
18 centimeters
- 3 (18.8%)

Total Members Voted: 15


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Author Topic: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video  (Read 313176 times)

Bob Lanz

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #330 on: January 08, 2013, 10:45:46 AM »

Of course, Jeff, I am willing to concede that those instruments might be a trompe l'oeil, or a clever hologram placed there by National Geographic....                                 

 :)

Well, in my experience, mother nature is among the most clever of all illusionists - maybe if not deliberate, for no other reason than just because she has so much time, random forces and material on her hands.  And we, her step-children, have a long-imprinted view of patterns coupled with the sleek imaginations we were Graced with, all in SomeOne's great good humor...

I may be criticized for agreeing or disagreeing with this or that, or for being too light of heart about things (or harsh, at times), but I dare any to fault my finding the sheer joy in seeing a bunch of us 'kids' on a search such as this one.  So much to be discovered about so many things along the way for those who can appreciate a worthy distraction now and then.

Ain't it the truth mein freund, and as you say, "It has to be fun or it isn't."
Doc
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #331 on: January 08, 2013, 11:16:31 AM »

And here is a "randomly drawn" starboard rudder, all of the movable section and the bottom portion of the fixed section. It is distinguishable from the left rudder by the ground-adjustable trim tab, as opposed to the left rudder's movable trim tab. A section of the HF antenna trails off to the lower left. I have yet to discern any markings on the outer surface.
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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 11:22:53 AM by Tim Mellon »
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JNev

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #332 on: January 08, 2013, 01:20:30 PM »

And here is a "randomly drawn" starboard rudder, all of the movable section and the bottom portion of the fixed section. It is distinguishable from the left rudder by the ground-adjustable trim tab, as opposed to the left rudder's movable trim tab. A section of the HF antenna trails off to the lower left. I have yet to discern any markings on the outer surface.

Scale check (dimensions, not fish...) - how big is that black 'squiggly' nearby?  If we can learn that then we might determine a reasonable size for the shape you've pointed out, Tim. 

The rudder and fin assemblies on an L10 were something close to 5 1/2 tall and 4 feet or so in cord I believe - big things, so that would have to be one big 'squiggly' (and rocks) to match up to that size, IMO.  Somehow I think we may be again looking at inches and not feet in that area, but if someone can help with some definitive scale to the contrary that would be great, of course.
- Jeff Neville

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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #333 on: January 08, 2013, 02:05:57 PM »

Jeff, that shot is from the tailwheel with the ferns on it (very foreground, inches from camera). The black strip (what I think you mean by "squiggly") is a void, not an object. The trim tab is, obviously, on the trailing edge of the rudder.

The rudder is sitting on top of a wing, very hard to see. Rudder and wing are yards away from camera. You Southern boys just aren't used to seeing things in the snow!

In the attached photo, the wing is outlined in green dots, the rudder in blue dots. The missing aileron slot is shown in red. The inner part of the wing and the engine mount identified by John Balderston are just out of the picture to the upper left.


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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 03:19:22 PM by Tim Mellon »
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JNev

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #334 on: January 08, 2013, 04:12:40 PM »

Jeff, that shot is from the tailwheel with the ferns on it (very foreground, inches from camera). The black strip (what I think you mean by "squiggly") is a void, not an object.

Well, the squiggly doesn't look like a 'void', it has distinct characteristics like a physical object would have - varigated shades of black/dark grey, as if twisted and reflecting the light differently in different places; it appears hidden behind the 'tailwheel fern' (or whatever the 'gold stuff' is) in this, your second picture (different frame from first, of course).  I still think it may be a squiggly.

Quote
The trim tab is, obviously, on the trailing edge of the rudder.

I'm not disputing the shape that you see.

Quote
The rudder is sitting on top of a wing, very hard to see. Rudder and wing are yards away from camera.

Again, not disputing the shapes that you see, although YMMV compared to mine on that.

Quote
You Southern boys just aren't used to seeing things in the snow!

You are correct.  Many of us are, however, fairly sure-footed in a barnyard...

Quote
In the attached photo, the wing is outlined in green dots, the rudder in blue dots. The missing aileron slot is shown in red. The inner part of the wing and the engine mount identified by John Balderston are just out of the picture to the upper left.

All of which assumes you are really looking at such relative objects, and discounts any objective measure of scale - which is what I think would be required to give some traction to your 'theory of relativity' to these various things which are all so neatly stacked...

Which raises an old point of mine - "how could such a variety of articles - a wing, a fin and rudder and tab(s) all lie so flat / in 2-dimensional presentaion and also not have one little hint of some detail in the clear for us to see?"

I'll add another prospect to that -

Airplanes don't break-up very neatly as a rule - if we're looking at the parts you describe, all shorn away from their constituant main assemblage during some catastrophic blow or blows, why no rent edges stickin up here and there, or buckling and creasing causing a vally or ridge of metal here or there? 

Wings have thickness in camber, tail feathers as well to some degree (and not an insignificant degree on an L10); that suggests we should at least see a mild hump suggesting camber, and if such surfaces are subjected to break-up loads, significant buckling is typical.

I'm not saying you are wrong, Tim, just explaining my skepticism and trying to share what I think is a necessarily critical process of review.  I don't think it is negative, just critical because of my own experiences and understandings.  At the base of all my concerns I believe really is 'scale' - without an objective, clear means of scaling these things we don't know if they are even in the ball park: if looking at 'inches' and not 'feet', this 'sighting' is a non-starter.

That's all I can offer here.  Until at least some real scale can be favorably applied, IMO there is nothing to see in this 'pile' except rocks, squigglies, rope (or cable), coral and sediment.  Show that these 'things' are truly the 'right size' objectively AND in relation to each other, and then you MAY have a way to make a persuasive case about the relevant shapes... but I'd also be digging for 3-dimensional evidence - L10's are well-rounded for the most part.

Wish I could offer more, I'd love to find that bird too.
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 04:14:21 PM by J. Nevill »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #335 on: January 08, 2013, 05:44:34 PM »

why no rent edges stickin up here and there, or buckling and creasing causing a vally or ridge of metal here or there? 


One point per reply, since I don't yet know how to capture multiple quotes in one reply.

Here's an entire bulkhead (aft of the toilet compartment) sticking up. Vent on top.

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Bob Lanz

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #336 on: January 08, 2013, 06:11:24 PM »

why no rent edges stickin up here and there, or buckling and creasing causing a vally or ridge of metal here or there?

One point per reply, since I don't yet know how to capture multiple quotes in one reply.

Tim, below the Post Reply box you will see the comment you want to reply to.  Copy and paste the item you wish to quote and then use the yellow Quote button and paste it there.  You can do this over and over, like this.  You can then make your reply comment after each quote.  Make sure you paste what you want to quote between the left and right brackets in the middle.  Hope this helps.

Bob

Example:
Quote
All of which assumes you are really looking at such relative objects, and discounts any objective measure of scale - which is what I think would be required to give some traction to your 'theory of relativity' to these various things which are all so neatly stacked...

Example:

Quote
Which raises an old point of mine - "how could such a variety of articles - a wing, a fin and rudder and tab(s) all lie so flat / in 2-dimensional presentaion and also not have one little hint of some detail in the clear for us to see?"

Example:

Quote
Airplanes don't break-up very neatly as a rule - if we're looking at the parts you describe, all shorn away from their constituant main assemblage during some catastrophic blow or blows, why no rent edges stickin up here and there, or buckling and creasing causing a vally or ridge of metal here or there? 
Doc
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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 06:13:32 PM by Bob Lanz »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #337 on: January 08, 2013, 06:13:11 PM »

Wings have thickness in camber, tail feathers as well to some degree (and not an insignificant degree on an L10); that suggests we should at least see a mild hump suggesting camber, and if such surfaces are subjected to break-up loads, significant buckling is typical.


An example of wing-shaped object.

I don't think the muses had us in mind when they scattered these parts on the landscape. If most appear largely flat, that is because essentially they are fairly flat. Especially when covered with a snowy substance that removes all reflectivity.

Tim
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #338 on: January 08, 2013, 06:23:27 PM »

Well, the squiggly doesn't look like a 'void', it has distinct characteristics like a physical object would have - varigated shades of black/dark grey, as if twisted and reflecting the light differently in different places;

I see no variegated shades - all BLACK. Two overlapping sheets of metal forming a strip of black between them. YMMV.
Tim
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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 07:09:30 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #339 on: January 08, 2013, 06:40:09 PM »

all shorn away from their constituant main assemblage during some catastrophic blow or blows,

Jeff, this is merely your imagination of how things might have happened. I described an alternate scenario some time ago, but it never got a response.

Additionally, it is possible that the aircraft drifted to the bottom almost totally intact, and then over the years began to fall apart casting various pieces such as wings and landing gears to the side. This might explain why the contents of the cabin seem to have remained largely in coherence.
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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 07:07:02 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #340 on: January 08, 2013, 06:47:00 PM »

Tim, below the Post Reply box you will see the comment you want to reply to.  Copy and paste the item you wish to quote and then use the yellow Quote button and paste it there.  You can do this over and over, like this.  You can then make your reply comment after each quote.  Make sure you paste what you want to quote between the left and right brackets in the middle.  Hope this helps.

Bob


Like here? Copy and paste the item you wish to quote and then use the yellow Quote button and paste it there.

And here? Copy and paste the item you wish to quote and then use the yellow Quote button and paste it there.

Or in a quote?
Quote
Copy and paste the item you wish to quote and then use the yellow Quote button and paste it there.

Thanks, Bob.
Tim
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #341 on: January 08, 2013, 06:53:11 PM »

Not to belabor the scale issue, but I rather thought the Ballentine's Ale can was a pretty darned good measuring stick. They do sell beer and ale in cans in Savannah, don't they?

Actually, in the lower-right corner of the clip one can also see, I believe, several rolls of toilet paper. Wouldn't you agree with me that the inner cardboard roll is usually about 1.5" diameter?



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« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 05:04:19 AM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #342 on: January 08, 2013, 07:04:52 PM »

which is what I think would be required to give some traction to your 'theory of relativity' to these various things which are all so neatly stacked...


Jeff, if you walked into a house of ill repute, would you expect to find a Lady? Or a landing gear? Or a neatly stacked ton of hay?

So when you walk onto a basketball-court-sized area filled with Electra parts, how can you use anything but Electra parts for scale?
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #343 on: January 09, 2013, 05:16:23 AM »

This has been fun to watch! WE can see all the stuff that our mind wants to see. But----are we any closer to finding the answers, and how would YOU guys suggest we do that? Now, now, dont say $$$, because we already know that. I meant the technical stuff!!
Tom
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #344 on: January 09, 2013, 06:21:14 AM »

I believe that the two attached pictures both show the rudder-wing sandwich:

The first, from the 2010 HD video, points inboard from above and beyond the wingtip.

The second, from the 2012 SD video, points outward toward the wingtip and shows both the bottom of the rudder hinge and the space from which the aileron has disappeared.
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