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In Reply #24 to the "Summary of Debris" thread, there is a scale for the picture of the scallop shell.

 2 centimeters
- 4 (25%)
 5 centimeters
- 4 (25%)
 8 centimeters
- 4 (25%)
13 centimeters
- 1 (6.3%)
18 centimeters
- 3 (18.8%)

Total Members Voted: 15


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Author Topic: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video  (Read 313179 times)

Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #270 on: January 03, 2013, 06:14:07 PM »

Further analysis of the 2010 HD video suggests the possibility of various items (including a Remington flare pistol, Item #23 on the Luke Field Inventory) on or near the body of Fred Noonan, the Navigator. Additional items may become apparent to other eyes.
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« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 07:24:22 AM by Tim Mellon »
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John Joseph Barrett

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #271 on: January 03, 2013, 07:36:33 PM »

John,

I can't seem to get the picture to post here, but in the link you provided to the bulletin on the fuel system, there is a picture which shows the filler ports before the headliner was installed (left picture immediately under the full sized one of AE standing near the plane around July 1936 w/ports circled in white). In that picture you can clearly see a box-like structure at the outer end of the filler pipe alongside the fuselage wall. This looks very similar to the box on the end of the purported filler pipe in the dive video. between that and the two differing colors that appear to be rings around the object and are quite possibly the hose clamps/rubber fittings attracting different marine organisms, I would bet that the object is a fuel port, filler tube, and auxilary tank. If these were unique to the Electra, or at least not common to other aircraft, this might be an object worth recovering. LTM,   -John     Edit- apparently I DID get it to attach.   :)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 07:38:38 PM by John Joseph Barrett »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #272 on: January 03, 2013, 11:14:26 PM »


Tim, who, where or when was it verified that the object you see is in fact Fred Noonan?  I think it presumptuous of you to continue your personal observation without verification or proof.  I believe the forum policy is that you provide that  unless this is just your CWAG.
.                         

Bob, my opinion is suggested by the word "suggests" in the post.

Happy New Year.

 :)
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« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 11:18:29 PM by Tim Mellon »
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JNev

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #273 on: January 04, 2013, 05:06:06 AM »

Not meaning to dampen the spirit in the least, but you folks do realize that for all these components you are 'finding' to be real Electra stuff the airframe would have to have been nearly completely disassembled and her various elements laid bare in 2D near-orthographic fashion along the bottom, don't you? 

How likely is that?  I've never seen a wreck in-situ like that, short of a deliberate hangar-floor reconstruction after the retrieval of widely scattered debris.

Many of the things mentioned also have substantial 3 dimensional bulk - how is it that we'd see so many representative features at essentially one level of 'dirt'?  If we see a filler neck for example, where is the balance of the tank?  Conveniently buried?  If so much bulk is buried, then how did so many other things come to rest in full view?

Think about it...
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« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 05:12:52 AM by J. Nevill »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #274 on: January 04, 2013, 06:37:27 AM »

I've never seen a wreck in-situ like that, short of a deliberate hangar-floor reconstruction after the retrieval of widely scattered debris.


Jeff, here are three.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #275 on: January 04, 2013, 07:46:24 AM »

Jeff, the scenario that seems most likely to me is that the Electra was swept off the reef, essentially intact, by a large wave or swell. It floated out for a short while, pushed away from the shore by the easterly trade wind, as it gradually took on more and more water. Loosing bouancy, it began to sink almost vertically. Gaining vertical descent speed as more and more air was forced from any remaining pockets, the aircraft fell 985 feet (the depth shown on the 2010 SD video) and, intact until contact, hit the bottom. Then minimal displacement of objects took place, being that many components were tied together by control wires, HF antenna cable, conduits, fuel lines, electrical lines, and stringers.

But, of course, other scenarios may be possible. And if what appear to be two bodies are actually those of the crew, it begs the question of when and how they met their demise.
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« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 07:50:56 AM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #276 on: January 04, 2013, 07:56:57 AM »

The more 'detail' I see suggested here the more questions arise in my mind, and I see more of a natural scattering of natural elements than anything else.

Of course, Jeff, if you are correct that these elements are all natural, then we need not worry about how they became distributed, as Nature did all that work.

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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #277 on: January 04, 2013, 08:54:11 AM »

I've never seen a wreck in-situ like that, short of a deliberate hangar-floor reconstruction after the retrieval of widely scattered debris.


Jeff, here are three.

Tim, I don't see how you can compare a C-17A at 282,000 lbs empty weight and 585,000 lbs max weight to an Electra at 15,000 lbs. 

Only pointing out wrecks in situ, Bob.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #278 on: January 04, 2013, 09:00:50 AM »

Now for one of the most surprising discoveries (IMHO, Bob): two musical instruments, a violin lying on Amelia Earhart's shoulders, and a banjo sitting on Fred Noonan's left side. The banjo case is by Amelia Earhart's left arm. I don't see a violin case yet.

The second picture shows an entry from Wikipedia that documents Amelia Earhart's playing the banjo.

EDIT: The third picture shows both instruments and both cases.
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« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 12:25:14 PM by Tim Mellon »
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william patterson

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #279 on: January 04, 2013, 09:45:48 AM »

Now for one of the most surprising discoveries (IMHO, Bob): two musical instruments, a violin lying on Amelia Earhart's shoulders, and a banjo sitting on Fred Noonan's left side. The banjo case is by Amelia Earhart's left arm. I don't see a violin case yet.

The second picture shows an entry from Wikipedia that documents Amelia Earhart's playing the banjo.

So Earhart purged all extra weight at Lae, but kept some musical instruments?
Why exactly would these have been on board?
To play when bored perhaps?

 Then the "banjo case" survived decades underwater?
I keep waiting for you to say "just kidding folks, this is all a joke", but the punchline never comes....
I believe you are serious and that is just a bit disheartening.

If this is all the "evidence" of a man made aircraft debris field, it might be time to find another field.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #280 on: January 04, 2013, 10:53:44 AM »

william and Bob: you two are about the only people here with such constantly negative thoughts.

I don't plan to dignify any of these rants with further replies. Sorry to waste your valuable time.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #281 on: January 04, 2013, 11:22:17 AM »

To anyone who does not believe there is a banjo lying at 985 feet below sea level, please explain why.
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John Balderston

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #282 on: January 04, 2013, 11:53:50 AM »

Many of the things mentioned also have substantial 3 dimensional bulk - how is it that we'd see so many representative features at essentially one level of 'dirt'?  If we see a filler neck for example, where is the balance of the tank? 

Hi Jeff,

A little more help please.  In your opinion how much dimensionality should we be seeing from the aux fuel tank arrangement?  Should the internal baffles and braces maintain the integrity of these empty aux fuel tanks from surface battering of an indeterminate length down to a resting place at 300 meters?   On a related note, as we consider a potential NR16020 debris field, should we consider the postulate that a fuel tank was removed and used for water collection? 

Sincerely, John
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #283 on: January 04, 2013, 02:35:18 PM »

The item in the first photo bears a striking resemblance (to me) to the Kodak Duo Six-20 camera referred to (Item #18) in the Luke Field Report as shown in the second picture. A flash attachment sits just to the right of the camera. These appear in the 2010 High Definition video at time 13:37:22, frame 01.
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« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 03:15:33 PM by Tim Mellon »
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JNev

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Re: Summary of Debris from 2010 Video
« Reply #284 on: January 04, 2013, 04:52:08 PM »

Many of the things mentioned also have substantial 3 dimensional bulk - how is it that we'd see so many representative features at essentially one level of 'dirt'?  If we see a filler neck for example, where is the balance of the tank? 

Hi Jeff,

A little more help please.  In your opinion how much dimensionality should we be seeing from the aux fuel tank arrangement?  Should the internal baffles and braces maintain the integrity of these empty aux fuel tanks from surface battering of an indeterminate length down to a resting place at 300 meters?   On a related note, as we consider a potential NR16020 debris field, should we consider the postulate that a fuel tank was removed and used for water collection? 

Sincerely, John

John,

I doubt I can help because I don't know how to explain the absence of an article from an area where... I see no other articles suggesting it should be there.  But -

Consider that if you 'see' a 'filler neck' or a 'wing' that yes, in all likelihood a fuselage tank (odds are at least one of them...) ought to still have some apparent bulk: yes, I suspect the tank structure was durable enough to sustain that form in large degree.  Why would I assume it had been crumpled to pulp while these other 'things' survive, as some see them?. 

Should it be considered that a tank may have been removed for water collection?  I do not see why that should be speculated at all but YMMV, of course.  I personally doubt that a thirsty pair of castaways would even possess the means, strength or desire - non-starter for me: I think it is more plausible that more manageable devices would be more attractive for that purpose for two stranded humans.

Consider too that if all these 'things' being 'seen' are lying about - how, pray tell, did the entire ship become so incredibly demolished as to disgorge so many sundry parts and pieces - and yet deposit intact 'bodies' replete with personal artifacts and other stuff like a radio, etc. in such close proximity with each other? 

In short I believe this seafloor has been keenly viewed and laid bare here for quite a while now with zero hard evidence of any Electra or occupant remnants truly being revealed.  That's my not-so-helpful opinion, I guess - again, YMMV.

And again, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade - but I do think critical thought is in order: the Electra won't be found by creative theory about what apparently natural formations seem to suggest as to wreckage.
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 04:54:39 PM by J. Nevill »
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