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Author Topic: Wire & Rope entire.mov  (Read 233345 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #300 on: November 21, 2012, 10:15:55 AM »

I will defer to your source as to the makeup of that antenna and gladly retract my comment.

I don't know what the dorsal antenna was made of.  You may be right.  It was probably standard HF antenna wire for that time, but in the absence of documentation we can't state that as a fact as you did.
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #301 on: November 21, 2012, 10:19:09 AM »

Remember -- wooden ships were clad with copper to prevent marine growth. Some types of anti-fouling paint still contain copper. If steel is copper clad, then it may well survive 75 yrs in tropical sea water. And marine growth on it will be relatively thin.

On the surface of course, but not at the depth they think the Electra debris is and where coral thrives.
Doc
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #302 on: November 21, 2012, 10:21:22 AM »

I will defer to your source as to the makeup of that antenna and gladly retract my comment.

I don't know what the dorsal antenna was made of.  You may be right.  It was probably standard HF antenna wire for that time, but in the absence of documentation we can't state that as a fact as you did.

You are right of course Ric, I should have stated 'that from what I have found and in my opinion".

Mea Culpa
Doc
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JNev

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #303 on: November 21, 2012, 01:51:01 PM »

Jeff, no-one is obliged to see anything, of course. But I think it not particularly fair to imply that those of us who are able to discern patterns are ditzo (and you, to your credit, haven't).

Au contrare, Tim - while of course no one is 'obligated', I in no way mean to imply that anyone is 'ditzo' - and more to the point, that ANY of us are able to discern patterns'.  I certainly have done so - peruse the 'ROV Stills' string to see for yourself if you like, and I've done so again here for the sake of illustration.

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Ric's opinion was rendered in January, before anyone had an opportunity to view the full 8.55 minute 2010 HD video.

And further to that point quite a few of us have been at this same exercise for many more months than some others, now arriving.  As to Ric's point, it seems to remain valid, but if you place yourself in that category (of professional analyst) far be it from me to quarrel.  Knock yourself out.

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I have found over the past two months that recognizing patterns is a process that builds on itself. I might not have seen anything had not John Balderston presented the digits on the right wing segment. Once I saw that, I was encouraged to look further, and took the time to compare things that I saw with the precise Harney drawings. The more I looked, the more I saw, because I was able to build upon the fabric of the scenery in the video. Because so much debris is concentrated in such a small area, it stood to reason that almost everything I was looking at had some significance, whether large or small.

Ric's last word on the subject was that he reserves the right to change his mind. That is just as it should be. This is a voluntary effort, and no-one is insisting that anyone change their minds based on things that are presented. But I would hope that we could all keep minds as open as Ric. For my part, I am ready to be proven totally wrong about every single thing I have asserted. I ask only that people propose sensible alternatives to the location of the Electra and provide some visual backup to their assertions.

I certainly agree that this phenomenon seems to build on itself; we all 'reserve the right' to change our minds, I'm sure, unless I've missed some rule of TIGHAR's that requires otherwise.  So far I have extreme doubts that any of the 'things' now written of will do that for me, but time will tell if these things are pursued to the bitter end, I'm sure.  All MHO, of course; YMMV.

Happy Thanksgiving -
- Jeff Neville

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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #304 on: November 21, 2012, 03:04:54 PM »

Glad to have Jeff home safe and sound!
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #305 on: November 23, 2012, 06:34:47 AM »

I believe the frame presented here shows the directional gyro control box (Harney instrument #9), which was attached above the front of the pilot's sliding side window, as well as one of the three fuselage fuel selectors, which were located just undeneath the front of the co-pilot's seat.
Tim
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 12:41:37 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Bill Roe

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #306 on: November 23, 2012, 06:47:00 AM »

Forgive me Tim -

But I just don't see that stuff.  For one reason it appears that we are looking through a cloud of dust/silt/debris created from maneuvering the machine close to the bottom.  For another there is nothing clearly defined except natural formations.

I will observe that the roundish thing could be a canteen.  Canteens back in that day were round and flatish like two concave dinner plates put together.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #307 on: November 23, 2012, 07:04:37 AM »

The two engines are mere meters away from one another on the slope, in my opinion. Both are oriented the same way: pointed downhill.
Tim
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #308 on: November 23, 2012, 07:09:20 AM »

I will observe that the roundish thing could be a canteen.  Canteens back in that day were round and flatish like two concave dinner plates put together.

Could be. Was there a canteen listed in any inventory?

Is that an upside-down glass sitting on the far edge of the canteen?

Tim
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Bill Roe

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #309 on: November 23, 2012, 07:14:41 AM »

I will observe that the roundish thing could be a canteen.  Canteens back in that day were round and flatish like two concave dinner plates put together.

Could be. Was there a canteen listed in any inventory?

Is that an upside-down glass sitting on the far edge of the canteen?

They'd be nuts not to carry a canteen or two.

If that's a glass, maybe it wasn't water in the canteen?  LOL
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JNev

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #310 on: November 23, 2012, 07:27:40 AM »

Maybe it's just rock and sediment.

Somehow the suggestion of 'the rope' along where the 'engines' lie suggests to me that scale may be off by several degrees of magnitude.  I don't see the 'shape' of 'engines' in this.
- Jeff Neville

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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #311 on: November 23, 2012, 08:46:36 AM »


Somehow the suggestion of 'the rope' along where the 'engines' lie suggests to me that scale may be off by several degrees of magnitude.  I don't see the 'shape' of 'engines' in this.
.   

The shape is like a barrel on its side. But I think you have a valid point about scale when size is compared to the ("alleged") antenna cable. Perhaps this could be a starter-generator. Does anyone have a picture of one to compare?

 :)
Tim
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 08:50:18 AM by Tim Mellon »
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Vahe Demirjian

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #312 on: November 23, 2012, 09:10:18 AM »

How many times should we argue about whether there is any aircraft debris in the underwater video taken during the Niku VI expedition? Jeff Glickman has said he can't find anything in the 2010 underwater video that he can identify as aircraft debris (e.g. engines, propellers, pilot's seat, vertical stabilizers). When the debris field spotted by Glickman in the Niku VII underwater video is retrieved during the forthcoming Niku VIII expedition, the rope seen in the wire and rope video should be taken out of the water so that no one mistakes it for a two-bladed propeller.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #313 on: November 23, 2012, 12:20:17 PM »

This view, at the very beginning of the 8.55 minute 2010 HD video, shows that the line has worn a channel into the surface. Since coral is quite abraisive, I think this means that the line is actually a metal cable and not a rope. The tensions of the shifting wreckage at each end of the cable, I think, have caused the cable to wear this channel into the surface.
Tim
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 12:43:11 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #314 on: November 23, 2012, 01:05:07 PM »

Jeff Glickman has said he can't find anything in the 2010 underwater video that he can identify as aircraft debris (e.g. engines, propellers, pilot's seat, vertical stabilizers).

This line of reasoning is becoming tiresome. So what?

As I have repeated (ad nauseum) we don't know when, or how much time Jeff Glickman spent looking at the 2010 video. We don't know whether he saw the full 8.55 minutes, or only the abridged 2 minute version. We don't know whether Jeff Glickman has familiarity with aircraft construction. We don't know whether Jeff Glickman has experience looking at underwater environments. We assume Jeff Glickman has no conflict of interest.

We have not heard of any particular component of an airplane that Jeff Glickman (or anyone else, for that matter) has identified from the 2012 HD video, which has been viewed over the course of more than three months now. We have no reason to believe that the 2010 and 2012 debris fields are mutually exclusive with respect to Electra wreckage. Both areas videoed are presumably just West of the "Nessie" feature, although we don't know the exact location of either, or their geographic relationship to each other (except that 2012 appears to be in shallower water than 2010).

Reasonable people have shown what they honestly believe is evidence of Electra components in the 2010 video. If you don't agree, or think it's all coral and rocks, fine. But if the quest is to find the answer to where was the final landing place of NR16020, then I think everyone should keep an open mind and not rush to judgement. You are quite free to point out anything that you think might help us arrive at this goal.

Tim
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 01:22:36 PM by Tim Mellon »
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