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Author Topic: Wire & Rope entire.mov  (Read 233347 times)

Tom Swearengen

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #195 on: November 16, 2012, 02:19:44 PM »

I think I'm going to leave this to the experts.
Tom
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #196 on: November 16, 2012, 03:06:55 PM »

Further up the slope I think I can make out the non-Bevington landing gear assembly. See frame #04 at time 13:37:09. The concave side of the fender is up, and lying on top of the somewhat deflated tire. No squigglies here.

All of the components seem to be in scale with each other.
Tim
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #197 on: November 16, 2012, 04:04:34 PM »

This is really interesting reading what people can see in that video. I've been looking at what some folks call the black squiggly thing and to me it looks just like a length of some cable or something that has been wound up then just let lie so that it unfurls a little but still holds the kinks it gets. The cord on my cell phone charger does that every time I unwind it to charge up the phone.     
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #198 on: November 16, 2012, 04:43:37 PM »

Dan---I thought so too. But I asked myself why I didnt see it in other places as well.
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #199 on: November 16, 2012, 04:46:39 PM »

Tim---when you see Jeff Glickman next month, show these to him, especially the real clear pic, and see what he can do to sharpen the image. I'll leave it in his capable hands.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #200 on: November 16, 2012, 05:25:49 PM »

Tom, I'll do my best, but I hope Jeff Glickman will have examined all these anomolies long before I get to Seattle. Hopefully Ric will have forwarded him all the references we have all made.
Tim
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #201 on: November 16, 2012, 05:27:14 PM »

Tom Swearengen previously posted a picture I thought was helpful. In analyzing this video and others it may help to look at the Gillam crash survey and the Kellogg Crash Survey pictures.  Are there any more pictures from those wreck site surveys available?
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #202 on: November 16, 2012, 05:51:01 PM »

It's not just the recognizable aircraft components that are imortant in this quest: the attached example of a man-made object (13:37:09, frame 04), lying right beside the landing gear assembly previously reported, demonstrates the profound abundance of materials affected by man. A modest section of sheet metal, who knows from where, has three 90 degree angles and numerous straight edges defining its shape. Coral NOT. There are hundreds of these anonymous pieces in the 8.55 minute video we now enjoy. They have all descended together into one mass graveyard, ripped asunder by who knows what forces, but all giving testimony, collectively, to the final resting place of an aircraft pushed to its limits. Unbelievable.
Tim
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« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 06:31:34 PM by Tim Mellon »
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THWWallace

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #203 on: November 16, 2012, 07:03:19 PM »

Further up the slope I think I can make out the non-Bevington landing gear assembly. See frame #04 at time 13:37:09. The concave side of the fender is up, and lying on top of the somewhat deflated tire.

At the risk of displaying my ignorance, can somebody please tell me how it's possible that the Electra's fender could be inverted?
~Travis Wallace
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Michael Elliot

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #204 on: November 16, 2012, 08:17:12 PM »

Inside airplanes of that period, and through WWII, controls of flight surfaces were accomplished with cables and pivots, some with arms termed yokes, by levers, bars, pulleys and by channels. Some airplane makers substituted rods for the cables. The fittings that connected these controls, especially where they change direction are often unique. Do we know what they look like in the L-10?
So, a couple of questions occur to me:
Did the L-10 use cables or rods or both?
One thing I've not seen used is a chain. But I can quite see how such might be desirable in several applications
Were there any chains in the links to engines, fuel tanks, control surfaces, etc that might end up looking like a bike chain that has been tossed? Esp. one that included copper, as in bronze etc.
Does anyone know what shape fitting was used to change control forces from for/aft to abeam, and back to fore/aft in the wings. Same in the empennage?
How were flaps extended?
How were cowl flaps opened?
How were fittings attached to the cables (or rods if they were used?)
Did the late author of the drawings do details of the interior of the fuselage control tunnels and wings? (I don't have the collection)
Answers to these questions may provide some views on the cables, squiggles, and, the ends of the cables.
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #205 on: November 16, 2012, 10:40:55 PM »

Inside airplanes of that period, and through WWII, controls of flight surfaces were accomplished with cables and pivots, some with arms termed yokes, by levers, bars, pulleys and by channels. Some airplane makers substituted rods for the cables. The fittings that connected these controls, especially where they change direction are often unique. Do we know what they look like in the L-10?
So, a couple of questions occur to me:
Did the L-10 use cables or rods or both?
One thing I've not seen used is a chain. But I can quite see how such might be desirable in several applications
Were there any chains in the links to engines, fuel tanks, control surfaces, etc that might end up looking like a bike chain that has been tossed? Esp. one that included copper, as in bronze etc.
Does anyone know what shape fitting was used to change control forces from for/aft to abeam, and back to fore/aft in the wings. Same in the empennage?
How were flaps extended?
How were cowl flaps opened?
How were fittings attached to the cables (or rods if they were used?)
Did the late author of the drawings do details of the interior of the fuselage control tunnels and wings? (I don't have the collection)
Answers to these questions may provide some views on the cables, squiggles, and, the ends of the cables.
I think, but I am not sure, that chains were used in the trim systems, with the chains going around the overhead cranks.

gl
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #206 on: November 16, 2012, 10:50:13 PM »

Further up the slope I think I can make out the non-Bevington landing gear assembly. See frame #04 at time 13:37:09. The concave side of the fender is up, and lying on top of the somewhat deflated tire.

At the risk of displaying my ignorance, can somebody please tell me how it's possible that the Electra's fender could be inverted?
~Travis Wallace

Travis, many of us have asked that same question, yet some think that it is.  It is not possible and anyone who visualizes that it is the fender is delusional.  No ignorance displayed on your part, just common sense.
Doc
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #207 on: November 17, 2012, 05:34:30 AM »

At the risk of displaying my ignorance, can somebody please tell me how it's possible that the Electra's fender could be inverted?
~Travis Wallace

Travis, without the Harney drawings to study, it might be difficult to imagine the following scenario:

The landing gear assembly starts tumbling down the underwater cliff. The fender is jarred loose from the attachment point at the bottom of the strut. The short front end is forced back under ths strut by the rotation of the tire when it contacts the cliff surface. Once clear of the strut, and still attached by the two rear braces, the fender flips over backward (180 degrees) and ends lying bottom-side up on the surface of the tire.

Tim
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 05:37:46 AM by Tim Mellon »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #208 on: November 17, 2012, 05:46:01 AM »

It is not possible and anyone who visualizes that it is the fender is delusional.  No ignorance displayed on your part, just common sense.

If you believe it is not possible it is up to you to explain why. We do not call people "delusional."
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #209 on: November 17, 2012, 08:26:47 AM »

It is not possible and anyone who visualizes that it is the fender is delusional.  No ignorance displayed on your part, just common sense.

If you believe it is not possible it is up to you to explain why. We do not call people "delusional."

I will apologize for my use of the term "delusional", my bad Ric.  That said, there are a number of members who have said that image is the wrong shape to be the fender of an Electra L10E.  It is patently obvious that image is too concave in the wrong direction and that is "why".

Now that begs the question, when you had an arm down there, why didn't you pick up some of the debris and bring it up to see what it is?  Isn't that the purpose of having it?  That question has been asked of me numerous times and of course, I don't have the answer.  Since that claw had a six inch grasp, something could have been grabbed and brought up.  Why not?

Doc
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