Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 06:59:56 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Lae Movie Film We saw a couple seconds of the old film of the takeoff from Lae on the TV programs a while back. It would be very interesting to see more of that film. Who has the film currently? Would there be any possibility of getting it put on a video cassette? Copies could be made available -- for a price. This might be something Barbara would like to be able to show to her kids. It's pretty much the point where the mystery all begins. It's a bit like going back in time and actually seeing the Electra make it's last takeoff run and climb into the air... and into history. They seened to be off to a good start. Then the communication problem began to appear. In a few hours Amelia and Fred will have vanished into one of the most challenging mysteries of the century. It's a mystery that seems to intrigue children... as well as some other people! I think that film would arouse their interest and curiosity as much as the books and documentaries do. And that's where we get to them... that curiosity!! ************************************************************** From Ric You're absolutely right. The Lae film is tremendously poignant. But like everything else, it requires an informed observer to understand its significance. Unless you know about the mystery, it's just a scratchy old piece of film showing a man and a woman getting into an airplane and taking off. Fortunately, the mystery is well known and kids are riveted by it. Making it more widely available is hampered by the fact that the entire sequence is only about 30 seconds long. You can't exactly market a 30 second videotape. However, we definitely plan to include it (along with lots of instant replay, stop action analysis) in the film(s) we'll be making with the funding that we're hoping will be forthcoming for the Voyage of Discovery educational program. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:25:28 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Bone discovery analysis (long) I've been doing some thinking (always dangerous). The following treatise will only make sense if you're up to speed on the bones that were found on Nikumaroro in 1940. If you're not (and if you'd like to be) I'd recommend that you read "The Tarawa File" which can be found on the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org. You'll find the link on the Earhart Project page at the bottom under For More Information. You might also read "Paradise Lost - a brief history of Nikumaroro" which can be found in the same place. *********************************************************** Our first indication that bones had once been found on Niku came back in 1989 when we became aware of a 1960 newspaper article which related a tale told by a Coast Guard veteran by the name of Floyd Kilts. It was pure anecdote, describing alleged events from 1938, related to Kilts in 1946 when he participated in the dismantling of the Loran station on Gardner, and told to a San Diego newspaper reporter in 1960. Pretty shaky. Parts of Kilts' story seemed to track well with the island's known history. Other parts were clearly not true, and much of it just seemed fantastical. Ten years of research have produced far more documented information than we ever would have dreamed possible and we can now look at the Kilts Story and make a reasonable attempt to understand how it relates to actual events. Also, for some time I've had a suspicion that a careful reconstruction of known events on Niku during the time period when the skull could have first been found might yield some clues about when it actually WAS found. Gallagher doesn't seem quite sure when it was found. In his September 23rd telegram he says the skull was found "some months ago" but it is still buried at that time. In his December 27th letter he says that the skull "has been buried in damp ground for nearly a year." But it's not at all clear when the skull was dug up. I now suspect that the skull was found much earlier - in Jaunuary of 1939. I've assembled a detailed timeline of the events we know about from the arrival of the NZ survey party on November 30, 1938 until Gallagher's first telegram referencing the bottle and skull on September 23, 1940. A few of things really strike me. - During that entire time there are very few working men on the island - ten at first and then four more - that's it. The rest are women and children. - There's no radio until Gallagher gets there. - There are at least two births on the island during that time, but no deaths. It's also interesting to note that for one week in early 1939 there are 23 people on Niku - the number which Kilts says are on the island at the time the bones are found. Other key elements of the Kilts story are satisfied during this brief period: "latter part of 1938" (well, Jan. of '39) "native island doctor" (Tutu) "no native women on the island" (at least up until then) "New Zealand officials" (doing the survey) These elements of the Kilts story come together only during this time known in the island's folklore as The Great Search For Water - the first time when there is a real exploration of the island by the Gilbertese. Here is the Floyd Kilts story as it appeared in the San Diego Tribune on July 21, 1960: ********************************** A native tried to tell me about it, but I couldn't understand all of it so I got an interpreter. It seems that in the latter part of 1938 there were 23 island people, all men, and an Irish magistrate planting coconut trees on Gardner for the government of New Zealand. They were about through and the native was walking along one end of the island. There in the brush about five feet from the shoreline he saw a skeleton. What attracted him to it was the shoes. Women's shoes, American kind. No native wears shoes. Couldn't if they wanted to --- feet too spread out and flat. The shoes were size nine narrow. Beside the skeleton was a cognac bottle with fresh water in it for drinking. The island doctor said the skeleton was that of a woman. And there were no native women on the island then. Farther down the beach he found a man's skull but nothing else. The magistrate was a young Irishman who got excited when he saw the bones. He thought of Amelia Earhart right away. He put the bones in a gunnysack and with the native doctor, and three other natives in a 22-foot, four-oared boat started for Suva, Fiji, 887 nautical miles away. The magistrate was anxious to get the news to the world. But on the way the Irishman came down with pneumonia. When only 24 hours out of Suva he died. The natives are superstitious as the devil and the next night after the young fellow died they threw the gunnysack full of bones overboard, scared of the spirits. And that was that. This same account was related by the doctor to New Zealand officials. ********************************** Here is the Floyd Kilts story broken down phrase by phrase. "A native tried to tell me about it, but I couldn't understand all of it so I got an interpreter." In 1946 there must be an islander who knows some, but not enough, English and was present on the island at the time of the incident. There must also be an islander who has sufficient English to act as an interpreter. "It seems that in the latter part of 1938 there were 23 island people, all men," There was no time in the latter part of 1938 when there were 23 island people on Gardner, regardless of gender. There was, however, a period of one week from January 4-11, 1939 when there seem to have been exactly 23 "island people" present. It's likley that at least one of them (Mautake's wife) was a woman but up until that time the population had been "all men." "and an Irish magistrate planting coconut trees on Gardner for the government of New Zealand". Several elements get pretty confused here but they're all true: - the magistrate didn't arrive until later but his nickname was "Irish" - the point was indeed to plant coconut trees - New Zealand officials were present "They were about through..." This probably refers to the events of 1940 when the clearing and planting of the main plantation was "about through." "and the native was walking along one end of the island." This is the same problem we have with Gallagher's description of the bone site. What end of what island? How far did they really range during TGSW? The Gilbertese who were with Bevington in 1937 judged the country beyond Bauareke to be "poor." "There in the brush about five feet from the shoreline he saw a skeleton." Again, this appears to describe the vents of October of 1940 when Gallagher orders the search for bones based upon the story of the skull. "What attracted him to it was the shoes. Women's shoes," We're still in 1940. Gallagher corroborates the discovery of women's shoes. "American kind." Not "American", but "American kind." As opposed to what? British kind? It seems likely that this description comes about through Kilts' inquiry as to what kind of shoes they were and the informant's reference to shoes Kilts was wearing. That would match well with Gallagher's description of a "stoutish walking shoe." "No native wears shoes. Couldn't if they wanted to --- feet too spread out and flat. The shoes were size nine narrow." This is really an incredible piece of detail. If Kilts isn't just flat making this up, where does it come from if it's not an essential part of the folklore? If we can't find a reference to AE's shoe size you can bet that Kilts couldn't either. Does a Gilbertese in 1946 who doesn't wear shoes know enough about the way American shoes are sized to provide this embellishment? Gallagher said that he found part of the sole. That's where the size would be printed. He didn't mention that the size was legible, but that doesn't mean it wasn't. This smells to me like real information. "Beside the skeleton was a cognac bottle with fresh water in it for drinking." We're back to ca 1938 again. We know that the bottle was found with the skull, not the skeleton. Kilts is correct, however, that it was a cognac bottle - Benedictine to be exact. Gallagher says the bottle was empty, and by the time he saw the bottle it probably was. Kilts' informant is describing the bottle at the time of discovery and may have better information than Gallagher. This is an important detail in determining cause of death. You don't die of thirst if you have a bottle of water. "The island doctor said the skeleton was that of a woman." Things are all confused again. Is this1939 when Native Medical Practioner Tutu may have offered an opinion about gender based entirely upon the skull? Or is this 1940 when Gallagher, not an island doctor, thinks the skeleton is that of a woman? Or is this 1941 when Dr. MacPherson may have expressed some opinion contrary to Dr. Hoodless? "And there were no native women on the island then." This seems like an unnecessary comment. He has already said that the 23 island people were all men. He just got through saying that these are women's shoes and natives don't wear shoes. It' apparently very important to the story that there is no other explanation for a woman being there. "Farther down the beach he found a man's skull but nothing else." Now we're back in 1939 again. Yes, the skull was found independent of the other bones but how, I wonder, does the idea get started that the skull and the skeleton are two different people? How much "farther down the beach" was the skull found from where the skeleton was later discovered? Apparently far enough to create the impression of two different people. If it was all one person, what moved the skull? Coconut crab seems the likeliest answer. "The magistrate was a young Irishman who got excited when he saw the bones. He thought of Amelia Earhart right away. " Yes, that's right. "He put the bones in a gunnysack" I suspect he did. The bones were found prior to Gallagher's initial September 23rd telegram. On October 17 they were "in locked chest in office pending construction of coffin." How else would you carry them from the site to the office? "and with the native doctor, and three other natives in a 22-foot, four-oared boat started for Suva, Fiji, 887 nautical miles away." As we've said before, there was such a boat and Gallagher and the bones did go to Fiji (although not together). "The magistrate was anxious to get the news to the world. But on the way the Irishman came down with pneumonia. When only 24 hours out of Suva he died." By the time Gallagher left for Fiji, both Dr. Isaac and Dr. Hoodless had shot down the idea that he had found Amelia Earhart. But what did Gallagher think? Was his visit to Fiji in any way connected with the bones? Change pneumonia to peritonitis and change 24 hours out of Suva to 24 hours after his return to Niku and the story is correct. "The natives are superstitious as the devil and the next night after the young fellow died they threw the gunnysack full of bones overboard, scared of the spirits. And that was that." How does Kilts know that the Gilbertese are worried about the "spirits" associated with the bones unless they tell him? And the story of the bones being thrown overboard doesn't hang together. - Gallagher dies in the open boat 24 ours out of Suva - The bones are not thrown overboard until "the next night." Why would they wait? We know that Gallagher died at night. By "the next night" they should be in Suva. This is actually the only part of the Kilts story that doesn't track well with known events. "This same account was related by the doctor to New Zealand officials." Kilts was clearly under the impression that the island was under New Zealand administration. This opens the possibility that he was told only that the doctor related the account to "officials" and Kilts assumed that he meant New Zealand officials. However, we certainly have come across no reference to a report by a "native doctor" to any official and it's hard to image what would occasion such a report, given that Gallagher was in communication with the WPHC throughout the whole affair. A better possibility (I think) is that it happened exactly as Kilts says. The skull is found in January 1939 and is reported by Tutu (naturally) to the New Zealand officials who are on the island at the time. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:29:04 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film Why not convert it to MPEG format and distribute it on your web site? *************************************************************** From Ric I'll check into that possibility. Depends on how big it would be. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:50:24 EDT From: Jerry Ellis Subject: "Courage" Ric and all, I know this is off topic but I'm looking for info about the value of an old copy of the sheet music of "Courage", the 1934 AE poem set to music by Charles Ridgway in 1937. Your help would be greatly appreciated and please respond to me at cfjwe@eiu.edu. Thanks. jerry ellis #2113 **************************************************************** From Ric I didn't know it had been set to music. We'd sure like to have a photocopy for the file. There have been several songs written about Earhart. The earliest one I was aware of was a real period piece in a proto-country/western style called "Amelia Earhart's Last Flight" with a classic chorus that went "Happy landings to you Amelia Earhart. Farewell, First Lady of the Air." ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:24:01 EDT From: Jack J. Subject: Re: Federal Standard Color # 12197 I looked up this FS # in my FS 595B color "fan" (color chips on strips that fold in and out like a fan). The color look much to dark. Did I understand you correctly that you were able to match the color of an actual piece of the L-10 E NR16020? The reason, or lack thereof, for my doubts are as follows: 1) In a book about AE's advisor, Paul Mantz, the author relates Mantz's story as to how the color was chosen. That is, Putnum wanted the aircraft painted black and gold (which are the colors of THAT university in central Indiana where AE was an advisor. Mantz insisted the aircraft be trimmed in bright orange so that it could be seen from a distance if it were to go down. IF I remember the story correctly, a big IF (at my age), Mantz wanted the color to be "aviation orange" or international orange (I don't remember which one of these it was and I can't remember who I loaned the book to refresh my memory. The bottom line of the story was that Mantz won out over George Putnam. 2) The Time Life books series had an edition dedicated to women in aviation. This book has a colored drawing of the L-10 E NR16020, and upon inquiry Time Life assured me that the color used in the book is correct as it had been supplied by the American Aviation Historical Society. They (Time Life) refused to Identify the source further. Maybe you would have better luck getting them to identify their source. There is the possibility that the dark orange you believe to be correct, is correct. Maybe Putnam had the last word after all. The dark orange could be referred to as "Gold." Throw in the black trim, and Putnam could tell the powers that be in Indiana that "The" aircraft was painted Black and Gold. This would be perfectly in character with G. P. Putnam. Ric, as a modeler of some 40 years I can tell you that there is nothing worse than an incorrect scale replica of a historic aircraft. I sense that you are dedicated to the idea of getting this model right. I believe as you do that it, the scale replica (model), should be as accurate as possible. AE would not have it any other way, and deserves nothing less. Lastly, I will share with you an old adage I have heard all of my life. Water seeks it's own level! (tongue deeply planted in cheek) Chuckle, Chuckle. LTM Jack J. *************************************************************** From Ric The color match was indeed done to the only known existing piece of metal from the airplane. A former Lockheed employee salvaged it during the repairs which followed the Luke Field crash. It has been protected as a personal treasure ever since. Unless the color has chemically deteriorated over the years, I don't know what could be more accurate. I remember reading about the color debate between Putnam and Mantz also, but I don't know where it was or what it's source was. As for the TIME/LIFE cutaway drawing (which has appeared in many places), it has many inaccuracies but I'm not at all surprised that they would assure you that it is correct. Bottom line is, we gotta go with the best source. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:51:05 EDT From: Lew Bone Subject: Niku - thoughts from the other side of the Pacific The Niku bones summary from last night was interesting. Throughout the time I have been watching on progress I have been constantly thinking that Tighar is heavily dependent, and relying, upon securing hard costly physical evidence at Niku which if found would certainly bring things to a conclusion, but I can't help thinking that part of the answer to this mystery might like so many other investigations also be simply within the knowledge of ordinary people. So often, there are people who frequently and sometimes even unbeknown to them hold very significant information that can contribute a big part of a jigsaw such as this one. Yes, which is all very fine of course, but as you well know the trick however is to (1) find out exactly who these people are - i.e. identify them., (2) then locate them., (3) then properly debrief them and secure the particular info you need, by sifting the relevant from the irrelevant. With particular relevance to the bones, and other more human (as opposed to physical) evidence at Niku, what I'm getting at is that I feel there may be relatives, if not living members at least, of two sectors that may assist your search, either of whom I may be able to help with. These are (1) the former islanders themselves and (2) the New Zealanders. With regard to the islanders, I haven't got a feel for this (yes, I need to read up on it more...!) but I understand they later dispersed all over. Nonetheless, locating them, or their relatives, may not be as daunting as it seems as to my (admittedly little) knowledge, such communities are quite close, and tend to stay in touch with one another or at least know where folk can be found. Auckland for instance has a massive ex-pat island population. Some inquiries with community leaders there might be a starting point. Or have you already got this under control via Kiribati sources? I see from the main Tighar site that Tighar is in fact needing help with the New Zealand survey party connection. If you are requiring someone to track down members of these parties, or their relatives, I could try and help you on this if that is the sort of help you need. To do so I would need to have all the available associated information you have to date, a large part of which I assume you may have obtained perhaps from NZ Archives? Is such help still needed? If so, please give me some more basic details and I will then provide you with an outline of what I think I could do here. Two other matters. - Are you quite happy that Tighar has a thorough knowledge of current New Zealand/Australian/Fijian etc maritime activity in the Kiribati region of the type that might provide Tighar with better/cheaper expeditionary access to, and logistical support on, Niku? Lastly, - a totally wild idea which will probably throw you and Pat off your seats in fits of laughter, but in view of the quite bizarre past allegations and theories of Japanese involvement in the matter, would it be a naive suggestion to float the whole search scenario past an appropriate Japanese source (University, company, corporation, airline, aviation group whatever) in an attempt to secure their interest (and their $$$$) and actively involve them? Who knows, they may see some nationalistic pride involved in laying to rest the crazy theories of western conspiratorial factions who have been giving them a bad press over the years. Despite the Asian economic downturn, you might find a body which is willing to financially and philosophically back the next Niku expedition. All you have to do is ask. And professionally package it to give it credibility to such a market. Corporations that quickly come to mind are those with an already strong commercial presence in the US such as Mitsubishi etc who as you know had wartime aviation involvement and may now consider there to be some commercial benefits in participating, as well as nationalistic ones. I believe that there is a strong aviation archaeology following in Japan which has included physical recovery, restoration and display of WW2 Pacific theatre aircraft. Or is this idea too much off the wall?? Let me know if any of this is of help. Best regards Lew Bone **************************************************************** From Ric We'd appreciate your help in trying to track down any surviving members of the New Zealand survey party who were on Gardner in late 1938/early 1939. It would be especially nice if you joined the organization. Here's what we know about the individuals in question: At 11:30 a.m. on November 30, 1938 - The British Pacific Islands Survey Expedition arrived at Gardner from Suva, Fiji aboard the chartered vessel Yanawai." Their purpose was to determine whether the lagoon was suitable for seaplane landings and to assess the practicality of constructing an airfield on the atoll. The survey team focused on taking soundings in the lagoon and mapping the island's northwestern tip - the only land area big enough for a runway. The team comprised six of the following, but we're not sure which six except for Henderson and Lee. J.A. Henderson, Surveyor (but he was injured and soon evacuated) E.W. Lee, Aerodrome Engineer and acting OIC after Henderson's departure R.A. Wimbush, Imperial airways, Echo-Sounding Expert (Great Britain) R.B Roberts, Engineering Assistant (Fiji) C. Harlen, Surveyor (Fiji) B.J. Patten, Draughtsman (NZ) T.W. Hoult, Chainman and Instrument Man (NZ) B.O. Carr, Launch Coxwain/Survey Assistant (NZ) Lt. J.A. Ritchie, RNR (Ret. '38) Commissariat and Stores (NZ) Acting Petty Officer M.H. Hay, Telegraphist RNZN They departed on February 5, 1939. I agree with you in principle that there are probably living individuals who have important information which may help us, but anything they have to say is useful only to the degree that it points us toward hard evidence. We will never solve the Earhart mystery with anecdotes. The Japanese-capture crowd has been trying to do that for many years. We do have a pretty good handle on maritime activity in the area but we have no desire to "piggyback." We need a dedicated support vessel, operating at our direction and on our schedule. As for Japanese support, the 1991 Niku II expedition received over $75,000 in contributions from Japanese sources via the Pacific Society, a Tokyo-based nonprofit historical foundation. Further fund-raising attempts in Japan have met with less success due to economic factors and they already consider TIGHAR's findings to be conclusive enough to exonerate the Japanese from any culpability in the Earhart disappearance. I guess we've been too successful. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:55:05 EDT From: Walt Holm Subject: NZ survey Has any archival research work been done in New Zealand with regard to this '38-'39 survey? -Walt ************************************************************** From Ric Lots and lots. We have what reports there are and a whole bunch of snapshots taken by the survey team. What we need now is to find out if any of the guys are still living. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:11:14 EDT From: Chuck Jackson Subject: Psitech wreck site is this old news to you???????? http://www.trv-psitech.com/projects/map.asp?page=4 *************************************************************** From Ric Well, I knew that Ed Dames had used his magical remote viewing techniques to come up with a place where he thinks Earhart's wreck is. I didn't know (and don't much care) where that place is. The map shown in the above referenced URL is of Kuria Island in the Gilberts group (Kiribati) just south of Tarawa. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:26:48 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Psitech site HI GANG- I JUST VISITED PSITECH (ED DASMES'S WEB SITE). I THINK HE HAS A HELLUVA BETTE\R CHANCE OF FINDING THE WRECKAGE THAN YOU GUYS DO. AT LEAST HE SEEMS TO HAVE DONE MORE RESEARCH. YHSN RIC:) STB - DICK STRIPPEL ************************************************************** From Ric You disappoint me, Dick. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:29:56 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Ada -- last chapter From Vern... My last way off-topic wandering. Honest!! Continuing thoughts about the Earhart disappearance as vehicle for interdisciplinary teaching. A. A. Lovelace's program Ada's program doesn't much look like programs we see today, whether in Assembly language or some higher level language. But it's a series of steps each of which does a rather simple arithmetic operation -- adding two numbers, multiplying or dividing one by another, etc., and stores results in "memory" locations. In this case, "memory" is the position of number wheels rotated by the mechanism. The position of wheels can also be sensed mechanically. There has been a lot of argument about whether or not Ada really knew what she was about. But when I study her program, exactly as she published it, I see clear evidence that she intended the machine to loop back and run through certain parts of the sequence again. The iterative loop and the ability to change one or more variables each time through are at the very heart of computer programming today. At least two different people, at one time or another, have tried running Ada's program on modern computers -- and succeeded! It will run and compute correct results. It calculates the coefficients of a polynomial expression. A few years ago, my friend Merilee was doing a presentation for her daughter's 7th grade math classes at the end of each school term. She called it "Visual Math" and the idea was to show the kids that they really could do some of the same stuff the "scientists" do. She would set up several computers and she had some toys that demonstrated one thing or another. We thought the story of Lady Lovelace and her hundred year old computer program would interest the kids. We re-wrote ada's program in the BASIC computer language. We figured a few of the kids might know something about BASIC. If you write simple, one step at a time, instructions you can place the two programs side by side and see that each line of the programs are doing the same things. And you can run the BASIC program to compute as many of the coefficients of the polynomial as you wish. These are the so-called "Bernoulli Numbers" that can be found in mathematical tables. (This is not the Bernoulli who makes airplanes fly, This is that one's father. There were a lot of them, and most were mathematically inclined.) I don't know what the heck Bernoulli Numbers are, or what they're good for. I think they're something statisticians use. It was just something to demonstrate how the engine would be programmed. A century after the fact, a few people have remembered Ada and recognized her attempt to show what could be done. Some may have heard of the programming language called "Ada." That programming language is defined by government STD-1815. Ada Byron was born in 1815. She died in 1852 at the age of 37. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:41:25 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film >Making it more widely available is hampered by the fact that the entire >sequence is only about 30 seconds long. About 30 seconds... just the boarding sequence? I have the impression there is more on the film that was referenced relative to the "loosing the antenna" theory. Where to plane was parked, etc. Maybe there's nothing very interesting to see in the rest of it. I don't suppose there would be any possibility of getting the part that is interesting computer processed to improve it. They've done this with some of the old movies and got them better than the original ever was. I'm sure it would cost a bunch of money if one had to pay for the work. Still another thought... Could you get photographic prints, on paper, made from a few frames through the boarding sequence? Even I could do some digital processing of those! Can you see any good use for prints of this kind, or for JPEG files from such prints? *************************************************************** The entire film is only about 30 seconds long. The boarding sequence is maybe 10 seconds, the taxiing sequence about 10, and the takeoff about 10. I've checked with our website hosting company and it should be no problem to mount the entire 30 seconds on our website so that it's viewable and also downloadable. We'll get that process started next week. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:43:32 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Psitech web site I just love the scientific method of evaluating things. But betting is a lot of fun. I'll bet these guys don't have a full house between a dozen of them. Well, my remote viewing technique just kicked in and I see, I see, I sea, I c, I si', aye yi yi. You don't want to know what I see. Okay, you forced me to tell you. I see a bunch of people trying to get money to pay for their expensive and very weird life styles. Love To Mother, Dave Bush #2200 ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:54:51 EDT From: Jim Kelly Subject: garbling On a technical note; your [fascinating] note on the bones is filled with) equals signs [=], 2) numbers in the 90's [92, 93, 92 , etc.] and 3) one or two letters at the end of a line with word wrap problems. Not to be picky [and certainly not to cast aspersions on Macs, which I think you use] but I do read your stuff with more than a passing amount of interest. Also, from one of the past forums you mentioned that forensic photography may not be useful because of hairlines, etc.? Would it be accurate enough to determine if the skull would be of European descent or not? BTW, I was talking to a friend of mine from Janesville who was talking to a friend of his @ Parker Pen, and the discussion was about the 'fellow who was looking for Amelia Earhart' and measuring pens. My friend figured that it was me; not knowing anyone else who would take a day of vacation for such foolishness. LTM Jim Kelly 2085 *************************************************************** From Ric Sorry about the garbling. I don't know it happens unless someone tells me. Thanks. It happens when I write something in Word and then paste into over into AOL. I hate it when that happens. As for forensic imaging and hairlines - I'm not sure what the tolerances are. However, I expect to have some word on the modern evaluations of the bone measurements later this week. I do appreciate your Parker Pen research. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:02:36 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Psitech website > From Dick Strippel (Rgstrippel@AOL.COM) > 10/2/98 11:35 > > HI GANG- I JUST VISITED PSITECH (ED DASMES'S WEB SITE). I THINK > HE HAS A HELLUVA BETTE\R CHANCE OF FINDING THE WRECKAGE > THAN YOU GUYS DO. Why is that? Because he's got prettier pictures up? Because he's got a precise "X marks the spot" ? > AT LEAST HE SEEMS TO HAVE DONE MORE RESEARCH. Well, he's got some real pretty pictures up. Very impressive. But I don't see the "more research" indicated on the web site. Please indicate upon what you judge the "more research" part of your statement. As Dogbert points out in The Dilbert Principal, you can get a lot of mileage out of a great presentation, even if the data is garbage or missing. The (web) site is very impressive and certainly gives the impression that the author knows his stuff. However, anyone can put an X on a nicely printed map. What I'd have liked to see (and couldn't find on the web site, could've just been me, of course) was WHY he thinks the engine and wing are where he claims they are. At least I understand WHY TIGHAR thinks the plane got to Gardner. - Bill ************************************************************** From Ric I suspect Dick says stuff like that just to yank my chain. As for Ed Dames' research, the reason you can't find any on his website is because he hasn't done any. What he does is "technical remote viewing" which is just another way of saying "reading tea leaves." Dames is nothing more than the Psychic Friends Network packaged in hi-tech terminology. W.C. Fields had it right: "You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time - and that's enough to make a decent living." ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:12:05 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Psitech wreck site The Itasca visited the west side of Kuria Island at 1610 local time on 14 July 1937. A magistrate came out in a canoe and "said no information had been obtained of Earhart plane passing over from any of the natives in his group of islands consisting of the Kruia, Manouki and Apamama. This is precisely where the Itasca laid off of Kuria where the plane is currently being searched for. ************************************************************** From Ric I love it. Thanks Randy. It's also worth noting that the reason that the British began settling the islands of Phoenix Group about this time is that the Gilbert Islands had become grossly overpopulated. The only correction I'd offer to your comment is that no one is currently searching for the Earhart plane where the Psitech X is placed. Dames claims that he is mounting an expedition to go there and search this fall. If I had a nickel for every loudmouth with an Amelia Earhart theory who is about to mount an expedition to go find her, our funding woes would be over. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:17:04 EDT From: Vern Kelin Subject: Sextant boxes, again ... Searching for ideas Aside from the Canton Engine and the airplane itself, the sextant box found by Gallagher with that tantalizing number stenciled on it could establish an awfully solid tie between Fred Noonan and Gardner Island. I think it will be difficult to make as solid a tie to Amelia Earhart on the basis of the shoe parts, either those found by Gallagher or by TIGHAR. Assuming the sextant box was Noonan's, it may be that the numbers on it (3500 and 1542) are a connection to some ship, but I believe it more likely that they are a connection to Pan American Airlines. Are there any more avenues to explore in an attempt to discover whether Pam Am marked equipment with such numbers? TIGHAR has searched for sextants and boxes bearing numbers and found only one. That one does have a similar kind of number (3547), hand written -- and once belonged to Fred Noonan. I presume that search would have taken note of any bubble sextants that may have turned up as well as marine type sextants. There may be other things that would have been marked with numbers related to some kind of inventory system. Some such things may still exist somewhere, perhaps in some kind of collections. Maybe some people who were associated with Pan Am during the late 30s and early 40s are still around and might remember stuff being identified by such numbers. Does anyone have any thought about what to look for, or where to look, or who might be around who might remember something??? ************************************************************** From Ric When we were in San Carlos, Ca for our Earhart conference there, Pan Am veteran and TIGHAR member Bob Williams had an interesting comment on that subject. Tell 'em Bob. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:21:55 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: Psitech site For Dick Strippel I just visited the Dames site as well. You say that "at least he seems to have done more research." Exactly what research would that be? The only information provided is an uncredited Al Breznik photo of AE sitting on the Electra and a couple of cutesy maps with labels like "presumed wing and engine locations." I'd love to debate you on this one, Dick, I really would...but there's no solid information, no reasoning, no basis for a logical discussion. You may recall, I once moved that the Forum always provide a thing called a "reason" when making definitive statements (a motion that was seconded several times). Mr. Dames couldn't live by this policy and chose to withdraw from our esteemed company. Real research involves more than a crystal ball or throwing a dart at the Rand-McNally. When you come up with any way to substantiate Psi-techs claims, I'm sure we'd all be happy to debate them further. Until then, let's try to stay on course. LOVE TO MOTHER Russ ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:42:42 EDT From: Lew Bone Subject: New Zealand Survey Party O.K. I'll do what I can to track down the Survey party members or relatives. Let you know on progress as and when it develops. Lew B. ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Lew. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:51:20 EDT From: MontyBar Subject: bones and womans shoe Help me on this one please. I thought the womans shoe, sextant box, and bones were found on the far southeast end of the island by gallagher. The same place where you found a womans shoe sole a heel and a replacment heel that matches the sole. Now I read that you found the shoe parts inland from the lagoon on the southwestern side of the island. Also where is kanawa Point? Is kanawa Point that peninsula pointing south on the western end of the Lagoon? Montybar *************************************************************** From Ric Sorry for the confusion. Gallagher makes reference to the southeast end and also the southest shore. He also says that the site is near the lagoon shore. Where we found the shoe parts in 1991 was near the lagoon shore in a location which could be reasonably be described as the southeast shore but less so the "southeast end." Obviously, we don't know for sure where the heck he means. However, our current suspicion is that his discovery took place on the feature labeled "Kanawa Point" on the New Zealand Survey map. It's a small peninsula sticking out into the lagoon on the southwest part of the island. We'll write it up with maps and everything in the next TIGHAR Tracks. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:01:17 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT CLAIMING THIS IS THE LAE TAKEOFF. THE BACKGROUND (MOUNTAINS) DON'T LOOK LIKE THOSE SHOWN ON THE STILL PHOTOS FROM AUSTRALIAN CIVIL AVIATION. -TYPICAL TIGHAR LACK OF RESEARCH. ATB -- DICK *************************************************************** From Ric I haven't seen any photos from Australian Civil Aviation. I have seen still photos taken of the Earhart Electra taking off from Lae and the mountains are the same as in the film. I've also seen the disinctively New Guinea local folks in the film and I've seen that the departure end of the runway fits the runway at Lae which ends at the edge of Huon Gulf. If you have photos or information which document a reason to believe that the film is not what it is purported to be - produce it. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:05:10 EDT From: Jim W. Subject: PSI TECH/TRV There are ideas of mine expressed on this forum that have been bit by Ric, but I hope this is one that those who read the forum don't chew on too hard. This PSI TECH stuff from Ed Dames is a bit off track. Yes, it would be great if he could help solve the mystery of the loss of the Earhart/Noonan flight, but this guy is a 900 number. His relationship is PROFIT. This forum appears to have a higher level of conscienciousness and value standards than the Ed Dames crew. Dick Strippel for a free TIGHAR benefits? Hope his comments about PSI Tech are tongue in cheek. Also, am sending this message e-mail, esp will not do. Sure wish TRV worked, then my lost watch would be found. Jim W. *************************************************************** From Ric Dick Strippel has not responded to the offer of a sponsored membership. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:17:36 EDT From: Cameron Warren Subject: STRIPPEL REMARKS Dick is basically right - in his sometimes blunt way. All the really serious researchers have eventually realized that Fred/Amelia didn't survive much past 9 am on that fateful morning in July, 1937. The Marshall Islands/Saipan scenario has a lot more circumstantial evidence going for it than Gardner Island, but it doesn't hold up either. I know it's fun to put on your pith helmet and fearlessly lead yet another pseudo-scientific expedition to the island of your choice, but isn't it time you stopped flogging a long-dead horse? TIGHAR (read Randy Jacobson, primarily) has done a lot of really good research, and there is still more to be done, although the trail has gotten awfully cold. Here's a lead for you - Winslow Reef looks like dry ground from 1000 feet in the air. If Amelia tried to land there in a last desperate moment, the Electra may be only a short way down on the shoulder of the reef. I've been there but I'd like to check it out further. So sell a few T-shirts for me! Cam Warren ************************************************************** From Ric Gee Randy, what do you think? Should I retire that pith helmet I always wear and stop leading these pseudo-scientific expeditions to the island of our choice? I haven't looked at Winslow Reef from the air (as I guess Cam has), but I recall that you did look into the history of that elusive feature. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:40:19 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Bone discovery analysis Your story sounds plausible...based upon the aerial photo evidence, where were the villagers working during this time? This might be the biggest clue to determining where the bones were. *************************************************************** From Ric An aerial mozaic taken by a plane deployed from USS Pelican on April 30, 1939 shows that clearing activity at that time was limited to the area which later encompassed the village. Kanawa Point and Aukaraime district (where we found the shoe parts) appear untouched. The next aerial photography we have dates from June 20, 1941. Unfortunately it's not another aerial mozaic of the entire atoll but a series of low oblique shots. The village area looks pretty much the same. The clearing there does appear to have been expanded, but the infrastructure is much improved (buildings, roads, etc.). It is also apparent that a great deal of clearing work has been done in Aukaraime district and even some property demarcation lines laid out, but if cocos have been planted they are not visible from the air. None of the photos taken at that time give us a good look at Kanawa Point, but later photography seems to indicate that while the Kanawa trees may have been harvested for lumber, the penisnula was never cleared and planted to coconuts. Our suspicion is that this may have had something to do with the site's identification with Nei Koata's supposed encounter with the goddess Nei Manganibuka and the subsequent designation of the spot a "Niurabo" - a place sacred to the goddess. We're quite sure from a description of that legend (by P.B. Laxton in his article "Nikumaroro" in the Journal of the Polynesian Society) that the encounter happened in this same location. Bottom line: the photos aren't a whole lot of help. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:44:05 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Psitech website Ric wrote: > I suspect Dick says stuff like that just to yank my chain. Well, it did get a few of us to add our hits to the Dame's web site. > As for Ed Dames' research, the reason you can't find any on his website is > because he hasn't done any. What he does is "technical remote viewing" which > is just another way of saying "reading tea leaves." Dames is nothing more > than the Psychic Friends Network packaged in hi-tech terminology. Ach! I've been in this business (I program computers) for far too long. It didn't occur to me to wonder what the "Psi" in the company name meant. - Bill ************************************************************** From Ric Don't feel too badly. You're not the first or (sadly) the last to be sucked in. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:02:57 EDT From: MontyBar Subject: artifacts I agree ,the sextant box is probably about the hottest item found on the island that could be connected to Fred Noonan, unless the bones and sextant was from a castaway from the S.S. Norwich City are some where else. The finding of and reporting of a womans shoe is about the only thing that really supports a woman possibly being on the island prior to 1938. The bones of less of one skeleton were collected, and that seems to lean toward being male. What happened to the other skeleton? The natives mentioned the remains of a man and a woman, none native type. From this time till Gallagher collected the bones was a space of nearly a year. Wonder where the other skeleton is? If there was another skeleton. Was it buried? Sacked and thrown into the lagoon? Secretly carried off the island? Are maybe just left there to be scattered and lost in the vegetation , sand etc. I'm wondering , if they died of thirst depends on the amont of rainfall before and after their arrival. What is the weather like most of the time during July on niku? I doubt if they had much drink with them left on the plane. and searching the island for water in the heat wouldn't be long at all till they would really get thirsty. other articles that possibly could be found today that AE and FN might of had with them. A watch, pocket knife, most men carry pocket knives if nothing else to clean their finger nails are sharpen a pencil. How about a flash light? Battery powered light they sure would of used that at night if they had one. Natives are some one might of found some things but maybe not all. *************************************************************** From Ric Let's briefly review what we know - and what we don't know. We know: - that a skull and a bottle were found prior to Gallagher's arrival on the island in September 1940. - that the skull was buried. We don't know: - just when the skull and bottle were found and whether anything else was found at that time that Gallagher never knew about. - whether the skull was actually from the same body as the partial skeleton found later. We know: - that the partial skeleton found as a result of the search Gallagher mandated in 1940 and the exhumed skull were shipped off to Fiji along with the sextant box and the shoe sole. - that the skull and the other bones were examined by Dr. Hoodless in Fiji and judged to be those of a short, stocky, middle-aged male of European or mixed-race descent. - that the likelihood of the bones being those of a survivor of the 1929 Norwich City disaster is extremely remote. The 24 NC survivors were on the island 5 days awaiting rescue. All were taken off. We don't know - - whether the opinion of a colonial doctor in 1941, based upon his examination of a partial, badly damaged skeleton, was correct. We should have more information on that topic shortly. We know - - that island folklore consistently holds that two sets of bones - one male, one female - were found on the island. - that the available documentation describes the discovery of only one set of bones which were presumed to be from the same person. - that Gallagher says that he made a concerted but unsuccessful effort to find other objects at the site. We don't know - - what else may have been found that Gallagher didn't know about. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:13:23 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Psitech wreck site Ric wrote: > If I had a nickel for every loudmouth with an Amelia Earhart theory who is >about to mount an expedition to go find her, our funding woes would be over. Forget your next Niku expedition. Amelia is living with Wiley Post on Kodiak Island. It came to me in a (Jack Daniels-induced) dream. (hhmmm... I think I'll flesh out this story and send it to the Enquirer... might be worth a nickel or two). ;>) [and never mind what the great unwashed say about Mac-compatibility vis-a-vis the Internet. The only reason formatting problems crop up is because the majority of those who create Internet sites and software choose to ignore the far superior platform.] Tom #2179 Tom Robison *************************************************************** From Ric Mac an Toisch go bragh! (Scots Gaelic for "Macintosh forever!") LTM, Ridir Ghilleaspuig ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:19:50 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film Vern- Unfortunately, the original print of this historic film appears to have been lost. The EAA made a Beta transfer 10 or 15 years ago and incorporated the footage into their documentary on Buddy Brennan's Saipain trips entitled, "Witness to the Execution." When the antenna theory first came up, TIGHAR made a concerted effort to obtain the original film for evaluation. We were told that was in the possession of an elderly member of the 99s. She was very ill at the time and our efforts came to naught. As far as we know, it's still in her basement somewhere - if it hasn't been thrown away. EAA was kind enough to lend us their master copy and Jeff Glickman was able to work enough magic to see that the antenna is there when parked and missing on take-off. LOVE TO MOTHER Russ P.S. So Dick, I guess EAA and the 99s never do any research either. How about those "Australian Civil Aviation photos?" *************************************************************** From Ric The story is actually even weirder than that. The 99s had the film plus a bunch of other Earhart film that they loaned to EAA. the only film that EAA used was the takeoff film. The rest was sent back to the 99s and duly receipted. The takeoff film disappeared sometime after EAA dubbed it off onto Beta. EAA says they returned it to the 99s. The 99s say they never got it back. There is a possibility that it went to a former president of the 99s (the elderly lady) who later died and her resentful son then auctioned off her aviation memorabilia. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:23:29 EDT From: Suzanne Tamiesie Subject: Psitech I have to admit I got a good chuckle when I went to the Psitech site on Friday after reading Dick's email. I heard from long ago the voice of Sr. Paul Francis, my 7th grade teacher, summarily dismissing any student efforts which were not backed up by research and "showing how you came to your conclusion". Suzanne Tamiesie #2184 ************************************************************* From Ric Pity that Sister Paul couldn't have a chat with Dick Strippel. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:29:12 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Winslow Reef Cam Warren wrote: >Here's a lead for you - Winslow Reef looks like dry ground from 1000 > feet in the air. If Amelia tried to land there in a last desperate > moment, the Electra may be only a short way down on the shoulder of the > reef. I've been there but I'd like to check it out further. I wrote an article for EOS, Transactions of the American Geophysical Union regarding the search for Winslow Reef by the pilots of the Colorado planes. They searched three separate times in the right area (based upon satellite geodetic maps (these maps based upon gravity anomalies which are quite good for finding subsurface islands). By carefully reconstructing the flight paths, I am quite sure they flew in the right areas, but they did not see anything. Why? The reef is now known to be below sea level except in unusual sea conditions (low tide, high swell/sea state) that would expose breaking water on the reef. Based upon contemporaneous seastate and weather info, the Colorado pilots had nearly perfect seeing conditions, and did not find it; ergo, the Winslow Reef is under water. AE would have had similar difficulties finding it; even if she did, she would not attempt to land. ************************************************************** From Ric Perhaps Cam would favor us with an account of just when and how it was that he visited Winslow Reef? ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:10:02 EDT From: Marty Joy Subject: A Strippel Anthology I think your letting Dick get to you, it's obvious he is just jerking your chain, lighten up and place Mr. Stripple where he belongs, an amusing break from all the antenna / Noonan ancestors talk, on and on ad nauseum. Marty Joy 0724C ************************************************************** From Ric Taking Marty's advice, the following are Dick's offerings to the forum for today: On the Lae takeoff film - "Too many interesting thing, Vern (a) the mountains are 'wrong,(B)" there's water on the field (witnesses agree it was (DUSTY). (C) THERE'S NO 'BUMP' AT THE END OF THE STRIP. TO ME :IT'S NOT LAE." (Note from Ric: When we get the film up on the website I'd like to know if anyone else sees "water on the strip." I see no water. I see dust.) ***************************** Commenting on Cam Warren's posting - YOUR LAST SENTENCE DESCRIBES RIC AND TIGHAR PERFECTLY--LIVING ON O.P.M. OTHER PEOPLES' MONEY TO SUPPORT THEIR LIFESTYLE! ******************************* Commenting on Jim Kelly's posting about his research trip to Parker Pen - << who would take a day of vacation for such foolishness. >> my thoughts exactly!!!!!!!!!! GET A LIFE! -DICK ************************************************* Commenting on Russ Matthews posting about the Psitech site: <> HIS TEXT SHOWS HE UNDERSTANDS THE FLIGHT BETTER !!! --DICK ************************************************** Responding to my posting about the lae takeoff film - <> Frank Holbrook's US Naval Institute PROCEEDINGS ARTICLE . SOMETHING YOU PEOPLE NEVER READ, I'LL BET (Note from Ric: You'd lose that bet. You're referring to the February 1971 article. It has one photo of the Electra on takeoff from Lae. There is a mountain in the background partially enshrouded by mist. What appears to be the same mountain is visible in another still photo alleged to be of the final takeoff (but which I strongly suspect was taken of the takeoff for the test flight on July 1st). There is only one mountain and it is opposite the approach or inland end of the runway. The takeoff film was taken from near the departure or seaward end of the runway and doesn't pick up the airplane until it is well into the takeoff run and so does not show the mountain. What it does show is the same runway bordered by the same line of trees and with the same misty conditions in the background.) *************************************************************** And, finally, responding to my question - << Should I retire that pith helmet I always wear and stop leading these pseudo-scientific expeditions to the island of our choice?>> yes, yes ********************************************* Thus endeth today's offerings from Mr. Strippel. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:12:25 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: garbling >Sorry about the garbling. I don't know it happens unless someone tells me. >Thanks. It happens when I write something in Word and then paste into over >into AOL. I hate it when that happens. Very strange... I don't see the garbling. It must have to do with the E-mail server and/or the E-mail software as well as the source document pasted. I'm running an IBM/DOS kind of machine and Windows 3.1 (Yeah, I know, but it's been good enough). I do E-mail with Eudora Lite. I think that, One way or another, the text pasted needs to be a straight ASCII file. Not a Word formatted file. But I don't know how you get that done with the Mac and the software you're using. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:20:40 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Bone discovery analysis Re. coco planting on Kanawa Point: a photo I took during our brief inspection of the point in '89 shows a coconut palm in the background. This doesn't mean much, since cocos have doubtless spread beyond the original plantings, but it does raise questions about whether Kanawa Point was planted. I can't recall seeing any evidence of planting, but we weren't looking for such evidence. Re. KP as the location identified by Laxton as the site of Koata's wife's vision, I'd say we're about 75% sure. Laxton describes the village and its environs in terms of a walk that he takes, starting at the Rest House and proceeding in what seems like a sort of counterclockwise direction, eventually proveeding southeast from the village and passing the site of the Ghost Maneaba vision. Kanawa Point fits into the sequence of places he mentions in the course of this walkabout, and it has shallow coves on either side that resemble the fish ponds he describes being at the GM site. So I'd say the KP- GM equation is pretty good, but I'm certainly not positive of it. LTM Tom King ************************************************************* From Ric The cocos in the distance in your photo appear to be quite young. The question is whether they sprouted from nuts dropped from an alder planting in that location or from nuts that washed up from the lagoon shore. The remnants of the old stumps of the long-dead trees of the original planting are still detectable down on Aukaraime. If Kanawa Point was ever planted we should be able to find similar evidence there. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:45:27 EDT From: JJJ Subject: Re: Federal Standard Color # 12197 First, let me apologise for doubting your color selection. FS # 12197 it is. I was under the misunderstanding that the owner of the piece of AE's electra would not give TIGHAR access to it. Bravo to you and TIGHAR and thank you, thank you, thank you. You have provided me, any many others, with one more of the many missing pieces of detail regarding this aircraft. Another thought, if you don't mind. Another one of many books and/or articles I have read regarding AE, and anyone associated with her, came to mind after my last E-mail. Paul Mantz, AE's technical advisor, puportedly handled all of the modifications and preparations of the L-10. From what I have read about him he was a fastidious record keeper. After his death his FBO, somewhere in California, was gradually shut down and all of his records and memoriabilia were donated to one of the museums out there. I think it was the same museum that has the Spruce Goose, but I can't remember for sure. I'm trying to find the article where all this was discussed. Here is the point. Somewhere in Mantz's records may be the details of every nut, bolt, rivit, radio, wire, paint, etc. Has anyone ever looked into this possibility? Just a thought. If you plan on doing a special edition of the TIGHAR publication re. the L-10 NR16020, I would very much like to contribute my ideas on what kinds of details should be depicted, discussed, and or provided in diagrams, e.g. an overhead plan view of the aircraft showing the paint demarcation lines and Reg. # location. Thanks again for the attention to detail, and not accepting anything less than "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." Please let me know if I exceed 30 degrees of bank! LTM J.J.J. ************************************************************* From Ric No apology necessary. We should always be able to cite our sources. Mantz's papers ended up at the EAA Museum in Oshkosh. When the boxes arrived a few years ago, a TIGHAR volunteer was right there. Alas, no Earhart or Electra -related material was present. Puzzling. Mantz was heavily involved with Earhart's first world flight attempt, but much less so for the second attempt. He didn't even know she was leaving for Miami until after she had left. I'd be happy to have your suggestions about what kind of NR16020 details would be of the most interest to modelers. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:47:37 EDT From: Bob Subject: Re: Sextant Boxes Again To: Vern, TIGHAR Member 2124 When I first saw a picture of the Pensacola Sextant Box, I did a double back flip! It was spooky! The box was identical to the standard instrument box that Pan Am made, and used until the day they went out of business, for keeping all delicate instruments. On the older boxes, this included the same type of hardware on the box and the dove tail corners. The serial number of the instrument inside was also either written on the top of the box in black ink?, or stenciled on with black paint. It confirmed, in my mind, that the Pan Am pilot who had donated the sextant and box to the museum was telling the truth when he said that he got it on loan from Noonan when he took a navigation course from him. I don't think it was Noonan's personal property but was owned by Pan Am. I doubt that Noonan would have loaned anyone his personal sextant. Especially a pilot! Could it be the sextant and box found on Nikumaroro had been loaned to Noonan by Pan Am for his trip with Earhart, or could it be Noonan had "borrowed" it from Pan Am when he had been instructing navigation? Love To Mother Bob ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:52:57 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film Aren't there supposed to be records of estate auctions for legal purposes? It may be possible to determine who, if anyone, purchased the film in question. Best Wishes to All, ----Gene Dangelo 2211(Love that number!) *************************************************************** From Ric Except this was apparently more like a garage sale. And, of course, we have no idea whether the old lady had the film in the first place. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:17:36 EDT From: Tom King Subject: How many bodies? >Re: We know - >- that island folklore consistently holds that two sets of bones - one male, >one female - were found on the island. It's pure speculation, but I wonder if the "male and female skeletons" story arises from the attribution of two different sexes to the same set of bones at two different times. The bones are thought by Gallagher to be maybe female, then Isaac and Hoodless decide they're male, and the way the word of this gets garbled in transmission to the colonists is that there are two bodies, one male, one female. Again, pure speculation, but I don't think we need to assume the discovery of two skeletons based on the two-body stories. Love to Mother Tom King ************************************************************** From Ric But then there's Bauro Tikana, who says that he was Gallagher's clerk and interpreter in 1940. Bauro says (in a fax to me dated August 12, 1991): "When we first arrived (in 1940) I saw the shipwreck and asked Mr. Gallagher about it. He told me that it was the Norwich City. Later when the laborers were cleaning (clearing the bush) they told me they found bones near the ship. I do not know if Mr. Gallagher knew about the bones as I didn't tell him about it. The laborers also told me they found bones on the other end of the atoll when they were cleaning the land in that area. I don't believe Mr. Gallagher knew of these as he was the only white man there and most of the laborers didn't speak English and were afright (sic) to talk to him and Mr. Gallagher didn't speak Gilbertese. I did all the interpreting for Mr. Gallagher and pass on all his instructions to the laborers." Okay, so Bauro's info is a bit shaky. But if bones were found near the shipwreck, the question is whose bones were they? And how near is near? The Norwich City survivors buried the three bodies that washed up while they were there. It's possible that later storms uncovered one of those graves or that one of the other eight men lost in the disaster washed up unnoticed. However, especially because the reports of airplane wreckage seen on the reef and shoreline describe the same general part of the island as the shipwreck, the possibility remains that the "other" set of bones was the other crew member of the Electra. It's worth noting that the New Zealand survey party did not report finding any bones in that area (or anywhwere else) in late '38/early '39. Bauro says that the bones on Nutiran (near the shipwreck) were found "later" (after his arrival with Gallagher in 1940). LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:24:23 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: A Strippel Anthology >HIS [Ed Dames of Psi-tech] TEXT SHOWS HE UNDERSTANDS THE FLIGHT BETTER !!! Two questions Dick. 1. Specifically, what portions of the text are you referring to? 2. What text? >YOUR [Cam Warren] LAST SENTENCE DESCRIBES RIC AND TIGHAR PERFECTLY--LIVING >ON O.P.M. OTHER PEOPLES' MONEY TO SUPPORT THEIR LIFESTYLE! Funny how the people who complain of TIGHAR using O.P.M. (Other People's Money) are never the people who actually give money. LOVE TO MOTHER Russ ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:27:01 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Serious Research Cameron Warren wrote: >All the really serious researchers have eventually realized that >Fred/Amelia didn't survive much past 9 am on that fateful morning >in July, 1937. I beg to differ. I'm a researcher (seriously) and have yet to come to this realization. I don't even own a pith helmet. Ric has obviously not realized it yet either. He gave up a good job to spend the last 13 years researching aviation history is general and the Earhart disappearance in particular. How can you get more serious than that? Why are we (and others like us) so dense? Maybe it's prolonged exposure to diesel fumes and concertina music...or maybe it's because serious research has uncovered the evidence to back up our claims. Within days of the disappearance, both Eric Chater (General Manager for Guinea Airways based in Lae) and James Collopy (Superintendent for Civil Aviation in Lae) submitted written reports stating that NR16020 departed for Howland carrying 1,100 U.S gallons of fuel. When applied to fuel consumption tables prepared in late February 1937 (by none other than legendary Lockheed designer Kelly Johnson) the Earhart Electra could be expected to remain aloft for 24 hours and 9 minutes - giving Amelia/Fred a four hour fuel reserve as of 9am on that fateful morning in July, 1937. Any serious researcher must concede that the two lost aviators survived past the stroke of nine with enough fuel to reach land on their last reported Line of Position - land such as Gardner Island or even Winslow Reef. Wouldn't you agree, Cameron, or are you not "serious?" LOVE TO MOTHER Russ ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:29:54 EDT From: Hugh Graham Subject: Re: A Strippel Anthology To Ric: > Thus endeth today's offerings from Mr. Strippel. > Love to mother, > Ric -----It takes a mighty big man to accept constant criticism, but it keeps you honest. Better than a Yes-Man. regards, HAGraham 2201 ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:34:39 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Experiment Hey Gang, I'd like to conduct an experiment to see which Earhart Forum subscribers may possess genuine psychic abilities. Polish up your crystal balls and tell us what excuse you predict Ed Dames will use to explain his inability to pinpoint the wreckage of Earhart's plane. I'm going to go with "blaming hi-tech search gear." What do you think? We'll watch the Psi-Tech web site to see who among you has ESP, and who is SOL. LOVE TO MOTHER Russ **************************************************************** From Ric Dionne Warwick appeared to me in a dream and said that our experiment should be to see who can predict what excuse Dames will use for not going out to look at all. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:37:24 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: A Strippel Anthology > Commenting on Russ Matthews posting about the Psitech site: > >>But I don't see the "more research" indicated on the web site. Please >>indicate upon what you judge the "more research" part of your statement. > >HIS TEXT SHOWS HE UNDERSTANDS THE FLIGHT BETTER !!! --DICK Actually, that was me. And I don't see that either. - Bill ************************************************************** From Ric Ooooops! Sorry. (Typical TIGHAR lack of research again.) ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:09:11 EDT From: Cameron Warren Subject: VISITING WINSLOW REEF My partner and I chartered a schooner out of Honolulu (met it at Tarawa) in July, 1992, specifically to look for Winslow Reef, which at the time, was still only vaguely located in the literature (Defense Mapping Agency "Sailing Directions for the Pacific Islands, 4th Ed. - 1992", British Admiralty charts, the highly accurate Batholomew maps, etc. etc.). The reef WAS correctly located on DMA Jet Navigation Chart JNC-73, and ONC M-17, as confirmed on the surface by GPS. About 6 fathoms underwater at the shallowest spot, sand clearly visible from the surface and presumably more so from the air (on a clear day, naturally). (We plotted everything carefully, and made a copy for the British). No metal detected with a magnetometer. Randy assumes any wreckage would be visible from the air, but not if it had fallen down the steep side of the sea mount. Dr. Walter Smith of NOAA said it was extremely unlikely the reef ever caused any white water and no volcanic action ever reported this location since records kept. [This a summary off the top of my head - I can send a copy of my written report if anyone really cares]. Incidentally, we never saw another soul or ship until we got a few miles from Hawaii. Except a "mystery" helicopter that suddenly appeared over the Reef, bearing (in large letters) the initials "WGBH". A TIGHAR film crew? Turns out the craft was registered to a tuna clipper out of San Diego. Finally, you might be interested to know Dick Strippel wrote a second book (unpublished, apparently) in 1994. Excellent job - I only disagree on a few very minor technical (electronic) points. I got a copy from another source - he's never owned up to it. Why, I don't know, since it contains first class (really "scientific") research. Cam Warren ************************************************************** From Ric Okay, so let me get this straight. You say that "All the really serious researchers have eventually realized that Fred/Amelia didn't survive much past 9 am on that fateful morning in July, 1937." Now - Winslow Reef is a good 150 nautical miles or more from anywhere near Howland. The Electra's best economical cruise speed was 130 kts. In order to reach Winslow Reef the most optimistic scenario would require her to still be aloft a full hour after the time you say really serious researchers realize she went down. At least this is something we can agree on. You're not a serious researcher. You then say, "Winslow Reef looks like dry ground from 1000 feet in the air. If Amelia tried to land there in a last desperate moment, the Electra may be only a short way down on the shoulder of the reef." But then you say that the reef is, "About 6 fathoms underwater at the shallowest spot, sand clearly visible from the surface." Are you seriously suggesting that a sand bar 36 feet underwater can be mistaken for dry ground from 1000 feet in the air? Now granted, I'm no authority. I only have about 4,000 hours of pilot-in-command time, most of it in singles and twins down close to the ground. I'd be interested to know if any of our really high time pilots on the forum, many of whom have experience out in the Pacific, have ever mistaken shallow water for dry ground. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:27:28 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Lae takeoff film << how about those "Australian Civil Aviation photos?>> THERE'S ONLY ONE I KNOW OF BUT THEY MUST HSVER MORE- IT WAS IN FRANK HOLBROOK'S NAVAL INSTITUTE PROCEEDINGS. I BELIEVE WHAT YOY SAY IS THE LAe takeoff was actually filmed at CARIPITO, VENEZUELA. N.A.S.M. HAS MANY B & W PRINTS OF THAT. THE MOUNTAINS LOOK BETTER THAN ON YOURS--- SORRY --DICK *************************************************************** From Ric No for an apology. A simple explanation of what a group of classic, bushy-haired New Guinea tribesmen were doing in Venezuela would be sufficient. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:35:25 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Bone discovery analysis >The question is whether they sprouted from nuts dropped from an alder >planting in that location or from nuts that washed up from the lagoon shore. Surely you meant "elder" coconut trees, rather than alder trees. **************************************************************** From Ric Sorry. What I meant to say was "older coconut planting." (Your dedication is moving, but at four 'clock in the morning you're busting my chops about typos? Go to bed Randy.) ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:54:20 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film >(Note from Ric: You'd lose that bet. You're referring to the February 1971 >article. It has one photo of the Electra on takeoff from Lae. There is a >mountain in the background partially enshrouded by mist. What appears to be >the same mountain is visible in another still photo alleged to be of the final >takeoff (but which I strongly suspect was taken of the takeoff for the test >flight on July 1st). There is only one mountain and it is opposite the >approach or inland end of the runway. The takeoff film was taken from near >the departure or seaward end of the runway and doesn't pick up the airplane >until it is well into the takeoff run and so does not show the mountain. What >it does show is the same runway bordered by the same line of trees and with >the same misty conditions in the background.) the thick plottens .JUST ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING YOU NEVER SAW HOLBROOK'S ARTICLE ************************************************************* From Ric I hate to break the news, but it wasn't a big deal. You said that the photo you're talking about is in Holbrook's old Proceeding's article. I turned around to the filing cabinet beside my desk and pulled out the article (we've had it for years), looked at the picture, compared it to other photos taken at Lae and to the film, saw immediately what gave you the erroneous impression concerning the mountain, and wrote a response. The whole thing took maybe ten minutes. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:57:38 EDT From: Cameron Warren Subject: Re: VISITING WINSLOW REEF You misinterpret my remarks - unscientifically. I suggested Winslow Reef, casually, as an equally valid - if not more so - possibility along with Nikumaroro. As to fuel consumption, that's not my area of expertise - talk to Elgen Long, et al. Incidentally, Kelly Johnson (in his book) was firmly convinced AE/FN went to the bottom, and I'd consider him a pretty good source. Besides, all the answers are in Max Collins' "Flying Blind. ************************************************************** From Ric Oh. Moving right along... ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:47:28 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Bone sources Well, as to bones on any island or beach anywhere in the world, it is always possible that some hapless soul fell overboard and their body washed ashore someplace else, so I don't see that the mere reporting of bones tell us their origin unless there is other evidence uncovered with them that positively identifies them. Also, are there any records to indicate the disappearance of any person(s) in this part of the Pacific? Did people sail their own yachts on long distances across the Pacific during this period? What unregistered ships (ie pirates) might be sailing these parts? That's a lot of questions that we probably cannot answer and thus the bones will need to be found and positively analyzed as either being Fred or Amelia or not being either one. Anything less than that is pure speculation and of no value except to keep us guessing. LTM, Dave Bush #2200 *************************************************************** From Ric Good questions. When dealing with artifacts or human remains there is always a temptation to throw up our hands and say, "It could be anything or anyone!" But it can't. Nikumaroro is a very remote place and contact with the island has been relatively well documented. We can say quite a bit about probabilities but, as you say, conclusive ID relies on having the actual bone. Yacht activity in the Central Pacific in the 1930s was not common but neither was it nonexistent. Our best sources have been periodicals such as Pacific Islands Monthly which was (and still is) a news magazine for the Central Pacific region, and newspapers in Fiji and New Zealand. While the press did not necessarily report every private sailing venture in the area, it did report even minor mishaps and accidents, as well as any other newsworthy events from the various island groups. Any kind of shipwreck or disappearance was very big news. There is no mention of pirates. The bottom line is that the available sources don't provide any unaccounted- for bodies of white folks in the Pacific anywhere near Gardner Island between 1929 and 1940 other than the eight Norwich City crew members whose bodies were not found and a couple of American fliers who never showed up at Howland Island. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:03:36 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Sextant Boxes Again >When I first saw a picture of the Pensacola Sextant Box, I did a double back >flip! It was spooky! The box was identical to the standard instrument box >that Pan Am made, and used until the day they went out of business, for >keeping all delicate instruments. On the older boxes, this included the same >type of hardware on the box and the dove tail corners. The serial number of >the instrument inside was also either written on the top of the box in black >ink?, or stenciled on with black paint. It confirmed, in my mind, that the >Pan Am pilot who had donated the sextant and box to the museum was telling the >truth when he said that he got it on loan from Noonan when he took a >navigation course from him. I don't think it was Noonan's personal property >but was owned by Pan Am. I doubt that Noonan would have loaned anyone his >personal sextant. Especially a pilot! Could it be the sextant and box found >on Nikumaroro had been loaned to Noonan by Pan Am for his trip with Earhart, >or could it be Noonan had "borrowed" it from Pan Am when he had been >instructing navigation? You state that these were standard Pan Am Sextant Boxes. What is your source? Do you know of any existing records listing these sextants and who had possession of them? Most companies keep a list by serial number of equipment issued to employees or other personnel. Therefore, it should be a simple matter to match the serial number to the individual proving beyond a doubt that the sextand box found on Niku by the Brits was Freds and that is the smoking gun that we are looking for. With that info we should be able to find complete funding for a complete effort to locate all artifacts left on Niku. LTM Dave Bush #2200 **************************************************************** From Ric Bob did not say these were "standard Pan Am Sextant Boxes." He said that the older Pan Am instrument boxes he was familiar with looked just like the box which contains the Pensacola sextant. His source is personal experience during a long career with Pan Am. In other words, his information is anecdotal. You're absolutely correct that to turn it into hard evidence we would need to match the Pensacola box and the numbers on the box found by Gallagher to Pan Am records. Unfortunately, making such a match is not the simple matter you presume it to be. Pan American is, of course, bankrupt and out of business. A collection of company paperwork is archived at the University of Miami. It does not appear to include any accounting information about company equipment, how it was inventoried and controlled, or to whom it was signed out. One of the most common and, regrettably, unwarranted assumptions is that large corporations maintain good historical records. In our experience, rare indeed is the company that can give you detailed information about it's activities of ten years ago, let alone sixty. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:13:13 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Late night Foruming >Your dedication is moving, but at four 'clock in the morning you're busting >my chops about typos? Go to bed Randy. Actually, I just arose, due to my inability to sleep 'cause I want to read the latest forum postings! ************************************************************** From Ric Now I feel all guilty. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:28:15 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: VISITING WINSLOW REEF To Cam Warren ALTHOUGH YOU MENTION HIM, - IT SURE LOOKS LIKE YOU NEVER READ RANDY'S PAPER/ARTICLE ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:33:20 EDT From: Jim Kelly Subject: Re: Strippel anthology A mention by Dick Strippel! Is that the same thing the British used to use "mentioned in dispatches"? Can I put a letter behind my member no.? The trip to Janesville was fun for me and the good folks at Parker Pen seemed to enjoy it; so there must be a place for foolishness in this world. LTM Jim Kelly 2085 ************************************************************** From Ric Note that I have added the letters CBS to your member number, signifying that you have joined the hallowed corps of TIGHARs who have been Castigated By Strippel. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:38:10 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Experiment >Dionne Warwick appeared to me in a dream and said that our experiment should >be to see who can predict what excuse Dames will use for not going out to >look at all. And the answer to that is easy. Lack of funding because TIGHAR siphoned off all the money and poisoned the minds of potential donors. *************************************************************** From Ric Funding. Is that another word for Other People's Money (O.P.M.)? LTM ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:44:45 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: VISITING WINSLOW REEF Ric -- seems to me you're being a bit hard on Cam. I'd like to see his full report, anyhow. LTM Tom King *************************************************************** From Ric Sorry, sorry. Lost my head. A thousand pardons. We must keep an open mind and respect all viewpoints. Yes, we should definitely look at Cam's report if he is willing to share it with us. The mailing address is: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 Or if he can send it as an attached email file we'll make it available (unedited and without comment) to any forum subscriber who would like to see it. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:47:22 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Experiment Russ wrote: >Polish up your crystal balls and tell us >what excuse you predict Ed Dames will use to explain his inability to pinpoint >the wreckage of Earhart's plane. and Ric replied >Dionne Warwick appeared to me in a dream and said that our experiment should >be to see who can predict what excuse Dames will use for not going out to >look at all. And I reply: Back some time last year, when *El Nino" was all the talk, some whacko (er, excuse me, "scientist") claimed that the cause for the rapid rise in temperature in the central Pacific was due to extra-terrestrials who were using that area as a base of earth operations. Their constant entry into and exit from the sea in that area was boiling the water locally, which of course spread out and heated the whole ocean. Could this "base of operations" be the same spot where Mr. Dames is proposing to look for AE? Does Mr. Dames perhaps have cousins living nearby? Maybe he's really going out to look for a ride home. (This is beginning to sound a little like "Men in Black"... I'd better quit. Tom ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:32:15 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Dem Bones I expect it to turn out that Drs. Isaac and Hoodless were right about the bones. They were probably those of a male polynesian, possibly of mixed descent, possibly stocky, possibly middle-aged. There may be a connection to the grave of the infant. The natives know of no infant being buried in such a place. All of this may be nothing more than evidence of a small tragedy that was played out on a tiny atoll in the South Pacific well over half a century ago. Hundreds of small tragedies occur every day unnoticed by the world. Only the person whose bones those were knew, no one else will ever know. It appears that some person, perhaps with an infant, became stranded on the island, and perished there. We'll never know why this person was out among the Phoenix Islands in a small boat. A storm is the most likely thing to have resulted in his ending up stranded on the island. If the infant was with him, it may have been drowned during the storm. It may have already been dead, and may have had something to do with him being out there. The man survived and may have buried the small body wherever he could. Might it have been a family that was caught in the storm on their way, wherever? Was there a woman? A woman who wore shoes? Natives didn't were shoes -- at least most did not. Gallagher's "part of shoe sole?" Maybe. Shoes with "Cat's Paw" replacememt heels?? I don't believe that. Those must belong in a different tragedy. Legend has it that there were two skeletons, one male and one female. There may be other bones somewhere on the island -- if there is anything left of them. If they were there, nobody found them. But no bones found does not mean that Amelia and Fred were not there. How about a new scenario for the sextant box and the Benedictine bottle? These are both "useful containers." The castaway may have picked them up anywhere on the island. Or he may have brought one, or both, with him from whatever island he came from. Bruce Yoho found an engine, but he doesn't remember the hulk of the Norwich City. Maybe the sextant box came from the same island where Bruce picked up the engine. Benedictine bottles may seem unlikely in that part of the world but there were Europeans roaming about. The bottle would be real handy for drinking water and the castaway would certainly have hung on to it. The sextant box may have contained something considered to be of great value and was also hung on to with tenacity. Or it may have been picked up on Gardner for whatever use a handy box might be. In any case, if it is somehow concluded that the bones could not be either Amelia or Fred -- the height estimate by Dr. Hoodless certainly seems indicate that they could not be either -- then we can stop trying to find what became of the bones! But it would sure be nice to have that sextant box in hand! *************************************************************** From Ric That rumbling sound you hear is William of Occam rolling over in his grave. I'm sure that most of us are familar with Occam's Razor - "non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem" (literally: "entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity" or "the simplest explanation which accounts for all the facts is the most likely to be true"). Here we have a rather complete scene described by Gallagher which he interprets to be the site of Amelia Earhart's last stand. His superiors dismiss that interpretation based upon the forensic medical opinions available at the time. They cannot (as far as we know) explain the woman's shoe or the sextant box. Based upon our knowledge that campfire we found is relatively modern origin, we now strongly suspect that the site (near the infant grave) where we found our shoe parts is not the same place where Gallagher found his shoe parts. The infant grave, therefore, would seem to be - well - the grave of an infant. There is nothing to connect it to Gallagher's discovery. Remember also that Hoodless and Isaac disagree about the individual's ethnic origin. Isaac says Polynesian. Hoodless says probably European or mixed-race but not Polynesian. In fact, Gallagher's discovery looks entirely plausible as being just what he thought it was except for the forensic anthropological opinions of two doctors, neither of whom was a forensic anthropologist. That's why we've been so intent upon getting some good 1998 science laid on these bone measurements. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:06:22 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Lae takeoff film >group of classic, bushy-haired New Guinea tribesmen were doing in Venezuela >would be sufficient. where are they????? --dick *************************************************************** From Ric As an old friend of mine would say, "The thick plottens." You haven't seen the whole film! All you've seen is the edited snippit used in the TV documentaries. (You see Dick, it's important not to rely upon secondary sources. You have go to the original sources. You have to do your research.) The film starts with some scenes around the parked Electra with Earhart and Noonan busily getting into and out of the airplane as make preparations to leave. Then there's a brief scene of the parked airplane head-on where it looks just as if somebody said to the local on-lookers "Say, why don't you blokes go and stand in front of the ship and I'll take your picture?" I count about fourteen black men with bushy hair, most of whom are wearing only baggy shorts or lavalavas. Then there are more scenes of AE and FN climbing up the wing and in through the cockpit hatch, the flapping of their trouser legs indicating that the engines are running. Then the airplane taxis past the cameraman (and in reviewing the film to make sure I wasn't imagining the New Guinea guys, I note that your mountain is right there in the background.) The next seen is the roughly 10 second takeoff sequence which picks up the airplane from about, I would guess, a third of the way down the runway. When we mount the film on our website we will, of course, put up the whole thing. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:18:18 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Dem Bones While agreeing entirely with Ric's response to Vern's post on this subject, let me just add something in response to Vern's comment that "There may be a connection to the grave of the infant. The natives know of no infant being buried in such a place." We have no idea what the "natives" (i.e. the I Kiribati colonists) knew or didn't know about the infant grave, since nobody to our knowledge asked them and recorded their responses, but it's worth noting that the grave is unusual only in its location. There are lots of more or less similar graves in the village area, and as far as I know there's no record of them, either. People lived on the island, people died on the island, people buried people on the island, and in a traditional I Kiribati manner, they appear to have buried on land owned by the families to which the deceased belonged. I suspect that the infant was the child of a family that had been assigned rights to Aukaraime and was looking toward establishing residence there. As for the notion that the infant was the child of some castaway who ended up as Gallagher's bones, it's not very likely unless the castaway was a traditional I Kiribati. The grave is an entirely traditional I Kiribati grave, with standing coral slabs at head and foot and smaller slabs along the sides forming a low platform, just like those in the village. I can't see a basis for associating the grave and the bones found in '39. Actually, I think it's very unlikely that the grave was even there before the early '40s when Aukaraime was cleared for planting and potential residence. Tom King Project Archeologist ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:00:57 EDT From: unknown Subject: bones >You do have good evidence that bones were found, but no bones or >measurements that I have seen. For those who are interested in determining >sex and racial origins of bone, look at this site: >http://medstat.med.utah.edu/kw/osteo/forensics/for-frames.html sorry about the typo. The site is: http://medstat.med.utah.edu/kw/osteo/forensics/for frames.html ************************************************************** From Ric We do indeed have measurements but no bones (yet). The measurements are contained in the notes of the British doctor who examined the bones in 1941. They were published in the last issue of TIGHAR Tracks. I couldn't get either URL you gave to come up. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:03:52 EDT From: Sam Ginder Subject: Re: Winslow Reef I have several waterfront plots for sale on Winslow reef. Great ocean view, reasonable down payment, easy financing. Great get-away location with all sorts of privacy for you and that certain someone. Sam Ginder (2180) ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:54:44 EDT From: Joel Dunlap Subject: Norwich City I keep seeing references to the Norwich City. I don't remember hearing the whole story. Can you reissue that story and details or is there some place where I find that info? Thanks. LTM Joel Dunlap 2183 *************************************************************** From Ric On the night of Friday, November 29, 1929 the steamer S.S. Norwich City made an unscheduled stop at Gardner Island. She was under the ownership of the Reardon Smith Line, Captain Daniel Hamer, Master, and about halfway on her run from Melbourne to Honolulu to pick up a cargo bound for Vancouver. With empty holds, the freighter's 397 foot length was riding high, especially at the bow, and her 53.5 foot beam rolled with the heavy swell. Amidships her 412 H.P. oil-fueled, triple-expansion steam engine was serviced by nine Arab firemen, while topside a crew of four officers and 22 British seamen completed the ship's company. Her keel had been laid in Hartlepool, England in 1911 and she was registered out of Bideford in 1919 as ship no. 132596, gross tonnage 5,587 on the Mercantile Navy List. According to the testimony of Henry Lott of Folkestone, England, Second Officer, given at a Naval Court held December 9, 1929, in Apia, Samoa: *********** The first thing I knew was at 5 past 11 there was a crash and the vessel went up on the reef. I jumped off the settee in my room, went outside, and returned and put on some clothes. I went straight to the bridge for orders. The Norwich City was making water in two of her six holds so Captain Hamer ordered everyone to gather in the galley and wait for daylight. After a considerable time I noticed smoke coming from the fiddley. I looked down in No. 3 [hold] and could just see flames down below. Hamer ordered the lifeboats lowered but the mountainous seas breaking against the stranded ship ripped one boat from its davit and swept the Captain overboard. By that time the ship was a furnace .... We had the intention of waiting on board till daylight. [Then] she started exploding down below. **************** Those who could took to the remaining lifeboat but it was no sooner launched than it was capsized by a wave. Lott was swept to the reef, then back to the ship, and finally, around daybreak, found himself on the beach. In all, five British seamen and six Arab firemen were lost. The 24 survivors were rescued five days later by ships which had set out from Samoa when the first SOS was received. After two rescue ships arrived from Samoa the survivors were forced to move to the "lee side" of the island because the surf was too severe near the wreck for boats to take them off the island. It is not clear from the available accounts just where on the shore the rescue was effected A note sent by Captain Hamer on December 4th to the captain of one of the rescue ships provides an interesting list of the needs of Europeans marooned on Gardner Island for five days, "...Please send as much water as you can as we have none. We have meat but a case of milk would come in useful as would matches, chlorodyne as some of us have diarrhea and any old boots (one pair size tens) and any old hats and tobacco." ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:55:27 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: VISITING WINSLOW REEF I'd be interested in seeing it! (Cam Warrens full report) ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:57:17 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Late night Foruming Randy wrote: >Actually, I just arose, due to my inability to sleep 'cause I want to read the >latest forum postings! I sometimes arise at 4 a.m. too, but not to check the e-mail. ;>) Tom ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:02:03 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Dem Bones >In fact, Gallagher's discovery looks entirely plausible as being just what he >thought it was except for the forensic anthropological opinions of two >doctors, neither of whom was a forensic anthropologist. That's why we've been >so intent upon getting some good 1998 science laid on these bone measurements. And I eagerly await the results of that assessment of the bone measurements! ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:05:21 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: VISITING WINSLOW REEF Cam Warren wrote: > As to fuel consumption, that's not my area of expertise - talk to > Elgen Long, et al. We're dealing with hard figures and simple math here - you don't need to be an expert. Elgen knows how long the Electra would have stayed up with the reported fuel load just as well as we do - so he just says that Chater and Collopy (who were actually there) were wrong. So far all has been quiet on the subject. > Incidentally, Kelly Johnson (in his book) was firmly convinced AE/FN went > to the bottom, and I'd consider him a pretty good source. I'd consider him an unimpeachable source - in matters dealing with the Earhart aircraft's performance. His opinion about what AE/FN did and did not do on July 2, 1937 is just that, an opinion. Though, I bet if we could ask him, he'd say they went to the bottom a good four hours after 9:00am. > Besides, all the answers are in Max Collins' "Flying Blind. "This is a work of fiction..." -Max Allan Collins, "Flying Blind" (page 338) I couldn't agree more. LOVE TO MOTHER Russ ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:09:24 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Experiment sorry, Ric, but i still believe DAMES STANDS A BETTER CHANCE OF FINDING THE WRECK THAN YOU. STOP BEATING A DEAD HORSE(Niku) AND DO SOME RESEARCH OF YOUR OWN . -- DICK *************************************************************** From Ric ...the gods themselves contend in vain. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:16:51 EDT From: Roberta Woods Subject: Re: bones http://medstat.med.utah.edu/kw/osteo/forensics/for_frame.html This one worked for me. -- Roberta Woods ************************************************************* From Ric Thanks Roberta. That works for me too. Seems (to a layman) to be a good basic overview of the discipline. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:39:28 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Forensic Anthro. I'd like to explain just how we're going about this bone measurement business because it's pretty interesting. As everyone knows by now, a partial skeleton found on Gardner Island in 1940 was suspected at the time as being Amelia Earhart. British authorities held the matter "strictly secret" pending further investigation. A British doctor in Tarawa looked at the bones and declared them to be those of an elderly Polynesian male. A few months later, in April 1941, the principal of the medical school in Suva, Fiji recorded the measurements of several of the bones and wrote a report which expressed the opinion that the individual was a middle-aged, stocky, muscular male about 5 ft 5 inches in height. We don't know what then became of the bones. However, we do have the measurements taken by the doctor in Fiji. By evaluating those measurements with present-day forensic anthropological information and technology we should be able to assess the probable validity of the opinions expressed in 1941. Leading this investigation is Karin R. Burns, PhD,(TIGHAR 2071) a noted forensic anthropologist now teaching at the University of North Carolina, Charlotte. Dr. Burns is much in demand by forensic anthropological projects worldwide. (Last month she was in Poland verifying the remains of a relative of American Revolutionary War hero Kazimir Pulaski.) Independently evaluating the bone measurements taken in 1941 is Richard L. Jantz, PhD of the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. Dr. Jantz is the co-author of FORDISC, the first interactive computer program for the classification of unknown adult crania according to race and sex using any combination of standard cranial measurements. He is not a TIGHAR member (yet). As explained by Dr. Jantz, "The impetus to develop FORDISC resulted from increasingly frequent requests from colleagues to calculate 'made-to-order' discriminant functions using data from the Forensic Data Bank at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. The Forensic Data Bank contains samples of 20th century American populations, the most appropriate samples against which to compare measurements of unidentified crania. Custom discriminant functions are especially necessary when a specimen is fragmentary and measurements required by published functions are impossible to obtain. "Features of FORDISC 2.0 include comparisons to Howells craniometric data base samples, postcranial and mandibular discriminant functions for race and sex, stature estimation, more extensive on-line help, and a pictorial on-screen measurement guide for craniometrics." In addition, the forensics/anthropology/osteology department at Hamline University in St. Paul, MN has agreed to look at the Hoodless data. We should have the results of these analyses for posting to the forum very soon. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:10:04 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: More on dem bones If I remember correctly, you said 11 men died in the Norwich City wreck and that the 24 survivors buried three (?) bodies that later washed ashore. Is there any indication where those three bodies washed up? Long theory, short: If the ship is on the NW side of the reef and IF the 3 (?) bodies washed up on the NW side of the reef, then the remaining bodies --if they ever were washed ashore -- would most likely have also arrived on the NW side of the reef. Therefore "dem bones" -- which I think you said were found on the eastern side of the reef -- were in all likelihood NOT any of the NC crew. So that fact would at least rule out dem bones being the surviving parts of the dearly departed. Is this correct? Like a lot of forum subscribers, I'm confused about exactly where all of the bones were found. I know you promised a clarification in a later TIGHAR Tracks, but dad-gummit, I can't wait. Can you give us a sneak preview of a map and some "X's" created from that decrepit boat anchor of a PC system you refuse to part with? LTM Dennis McGee 0149 ************************************************************** From Ric There's no way to put up a map on the forum and, to tell you the truth, I'm a little hesitant to slap up a map on the internet showing the whole world exactly where we think things are on the island. (TIGHAR members are entitled to a few privileges and you never know when Ed Dames is going to have another vision.) But let me see if I can clear up the confusion. 1. We have documented evidence of the the discovery of only one set of bones on Nikumaroro. These were a skull found by laborers sometime in 1939 and a partial skeleton found by Colonial Service Officer Gerald Gallagher in 1940. 2. We are not certain where these bones were found but it was clearly somewhere near the lagoon shore along the southern side of the island. Our favorite hypothesis (this week) has them found on a small peninsula just west of the southern lagoon passage (Bauareke Passage). 3. There are rumors of other bones found onshore somewhere in the vicinity of the wreck of the Norwich City. 4. It seems safe to assume that the bones found by Gallagher are not a body washed up from the Norwich City, the Titanic, or the Pequod because the skeleton was part of a scene which included a campfire, dead birds and a dead turtle. Dead people don't camp. 5. It's not at all clear whether the rumored remains near the wreck were scattered bones, an intact skeleton, an exposed interment, or what. As for how and where things would wash ashore, that's very hard to say with any degree of certainty. The currents around an atoll like Niku are very complex and change with the tides and the weather. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:52:01 EDT From: Forest Blair Subject: Other possible visitors to Niku In the past 30-40 years there have been many adventurers and fishermen sailing the South Pacific. During just my year-plus at Canton in 1970-71, we ran across at least three such encounters: 1) an oriental ( Japanese I think) fishing boat needing supplies; 2) a father and son in a trimaran returning from Samoa to Honolulu needing a rest stop and some terra firma; 3) a Russian "research"--make that spy--ship ( the size of a modern passenger liner) that one morning appeared close off our westerly shore. A chap named Jimmy Cornell in his book "Ocean Cruising Survey" published by Sheridan House in 1986, moreover, lists over 150 seagoing sail boats that have prowled the South Pacific in our time. Cornell, in fact, interviewed their owners for the writing of his book. Bottom line: Perhaps Gardner (Niku) was not so untouched by outsiders as we like to think. With its lagoon, it's easy to think that some of these adventurers and fisherman may have anchored over night just to stretch their legs. The Russians may even have sipped some vodka around a campfire. The Russian ship and more than half of the sailboats had women on board. Who knows how old a pair of shoes might have been that a lady would take on an extended cruise to walk around on boat landings and coral rubble ? I have a pair of dress shoes, 19 years old, that I still wear. Please, no comments about style or frugality! Don't wish to sound negative on present thinking any more than not being convinced the Canton engine was found on Niku, but believe we must review all possibilities on sources of our artifacts. Forest #2149 *************************************************************** From Ric No argument there. In the absence of surveillance cameras, we really can't say with certainty who may have visited the island. We can, however, put some requirements on the person whose bones were found by Gallagher. 1. They died marooned on the island long enough before (at the earliest) December1938 so that only a badly weathered partial skeleton remained. 2. They had with them shoes which looked to Gallagher to be women's shoes of contemporary manufacture. 3. Whatever means of conveyance brought them to Gardner Island was not in evidence in 1938, or in October 1937 when Maude and Bevington first visited the island, or for that matter, July 9, 1937 when the Colorado's search planes saw only "signs of recent habitation." * 4. Their loss escaped the notice of the press, unless the individual happened to be one of the two people known to have disappeared in the region in 1937. *This is an interesting point that we haven't discussed in detail. How does someone get marooned on an island? If your ship goes aground, as did the Norwich City, it tends to remain a landmark for many years. If your ship sinks at sea and you escape in a lifeboat, then the lifeboat stays around. (In 1938 the New Zealand survey party found one of the lifeboats from the wreck of the Norwich City still sitting in the bushes where it had washed up nine years before.) If you abandon ship and swim for it do you do that with a sexant box under your arm and a Benedictine bottle in your hand? These would seem to be items salvaged Robinson Crusoe style from a vessel which, although accessible for a time, is fragile enough to have been quickly obliterated or at least reduced to easily obscured wreckage. Of course, you can also be put ashore like Ben Gunn and left to survive with nothing but your sextant box and your Benedictine bottle. The few yachties I've known have not been people I'd want to spend a lot time with, but I'm not sure they're THAT bad. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:27:23 EDT From: JJJ Subject: Williams Brothers scale model L-10 As announced by a fellow forum member Williams Bros. Electra model is now available. I picked one up at my local hobby shop today. It is an L-10, but NR16020 it ain't. The kit is wrought with inaccuracies. The kit decals supply the color markings for above the wings and horizontal stab. The color is blood red, WRONG. As we now know it should be FS #12197. The doors for access to the auxiliary fuel tanks on the side of the fuselage are nonexistent. There is no indication of the split flaps on the underside of the wings. These are the obvious errors. I am just beginning to "put the calipers to it" to determine if it scales out correctly. At 1/53 scale this is a proverbial pain in the posterior. Not to be all negative, it does "Look right" i.e. the contours have the proper appearance. The molding is done very well, and there are hardly any flaws in the molding (negligible). With a little scratch-building and modifying of the kit, and the use of paint to match the FS #, the kit will build into a decent scale replica. The manufacturer provides decals and interior seat for the Navy and US Coast Guard versions. The interior of NR16020 is empty. There are no interior parts for AE's aircraft. The cockpit is provided, i.e., seats, control yokes, instrument panel, etc., but nothing behind the cockpit bulkhead. (NO FUEL TANKS). Ric, just for the record I am a modeler. However, the model building hobby grew out of my interest in aviation, aviation history, and the fascination for those who fly. It, model building, gives me a three dimensional picture of the subject aircraft. e.g. Richard I. Bong's P-38 ("Marge"). AE has become a fascination, and a passion, I cannot describe or explain. I spend months and sometimes years gathering the data, scale drawings, pictures, books, "tech orders" for the specific time frame or theater, etc. As you know I even obtained a service manual for an L-10 for it's detailed information. So please smile when you refer to us scale replica builders as just "Model Builders". No offense taken. Thanks again for a piece of "detail" I have been searching for for over 10 years, that is, the proof and verification of the color. LTM J.J.J. *************************************************************** From Ric I hope I haven't said anything that could be construed as disparaging to "model builders." I've built dozens and dozens of model airplanes myself. A few years ago, frustrated by the utter lack of any available scale replica of Nungesser and Coli's transatlantic White Bird (l'Oiseau Blanc), I built one from scratch in carved balsa. That was back when I had a life. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:34:40 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Polley's return Dick Polley is back from the Coast Guard Loran reunion. Tom King (Project Archaeologist), Mike Everette (Radio Historian), and I (janitor) equipped him with about a gazillion questions to ask his fellow veterans. He'll have a report for us soon. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:51:37 EDT From: Cam Warren Subject: Winslow Report Today's trivia - Winslow Reef was named for RADM John Ancrum Winslow (1811-73). He gained fame in the Civil War, when, in command of the Yankee cruiser KEARSAGE, he sank the Confederate raider ALABAMA off Cherbourg, France. He was the commander of the Pacific squadron (1870-72). Herewith my Winslow Reef report, written (independently) about the same time Jacobson's article reached substantially the same conclusions. Cam Warren WINSLOW REEF - A Current Report [1994] by Cam Warren One of Amelia's last messages from the air said they were "...on a line of position 157/337..." which exactly matches a line drawn from Howland, her destination, to Baker Island. TIGHAR researchers extended the line on that bearing and decided she must have seen and landed on Nikumaroru (nee Gardner) Island, some 330 nautical miles from her intended landfall, and at a bearing of 159 degrees True. Plausible, but about a week or so after the Electra disappeared, aircraft from the U.S.S. Colorado flew over Gardner and other islands in that vicinity with negative results. The Navy also attempted to check out Winslow Reef and its neighbors, presumably using a British Admiralty chart (BA 780) printed in 1927. That chart had the reef about 13 miles southwest of its true position, incidentally, and the planes didn't find it at all. Joe Gervais reignited interest in Winslow Reef in Joe Klaas' book "Amelia Earhart Lives" (published in 1970). At the time, he described it as "157 degrees southeast of Howland Island" and went on to tell fellow researcher Robert Dinger that "It's a pattern of sand bars at zero degrees 59 minutes south latitude, 174 degrees and 43 minutes west latitude. That's 170 miles southeast of Howland Island. The reef sticks six feet out of the water at low tide, and the sand bars are only visible at low tide. I've checked the tide tables. And the tide was out at 8 a.m...." Well Joe never did get a chance to check out the reef, since his chartered boat ran aground shortly before he was to fly out and board it and other leads in the Earhart mystery caught his attention. As it turned out, his information was incorrect anyway, not at all unusual, as we shall see. Ever since the earliest sailors ventured out into the seven seas and returned with such reports as "here be dragons" charts have often been suspect, and those of the South Pacific are no exception. Captain Winslow of the vessel 'Phoenix' first reported shoal water and "two rocks awash" in 1851, at 1.40S/174.51W, and got the reef named in his honor. In 1926 the British schooner 'Doris Crane' spotted a reef awash at 0.55S/174.51W, or about 45 miles northward of Winslow Reef. According to the book "Sailing Directions" (5th edition, 1940) the steamer 'Huraki' passed over the charted position of Winslow Reef in 1922 and saw no sign of shoal water. The same negative report went into the books in 1928 ('Nassa') and 1932 (the American steamer 'Golden Cross'). Then a serious search for both reefs was made in 1935 by the British naval vessel 'Wellington'. "Favorable circumstances" were reported, but nothing whatever was found. A mysterious disappearing reef, or reefs, according to the literature. Was it, or were they, visible to Amelia on July 2, 1937? Curiously, nobody I talked to in the spring of 1992 could say for sure. Nothing to do but go and have the look that Gervais wanted. By July, Many phone calls and faxes later, my associate and I found ourselves aboard a 55' schooner, departing Tarawa for the vicinity of Winslow, armed with surface cameras, kite cameras, a magnetometer and a GPS instrument. Winslow Reef? Yes, six fathoms down. The mysterious "ghost reef" to the northward? No bottom showing on the fathometer, not there or at any of six other locations where "breakers" had been reported. Seems the Colorado boys may have been right after all, and they checked that area twice. Since we're talking three miles deep around here, an awful tall seamount must have fallen down when nobody was looking.Was that a possibility? Fast forward to 1994. "The Times Atlas of the World" (7th Comprehensive Edition, 1989) is considered highly reliable in its information. On Plate 10, "Australasia and South-West Pacific" Winslow Reef is clearly visible, appearing as the southern portion of a twin-peaked sea mount, astride the 175 west longitude line, approximately two degrees south of the Equator. Aha! Surely their information is impeccable. A call to the main offices of John Bartholomew & Son in Edinburgh, Scotland, who do all the splendid mapwork in the atlas, elicited the information that "they don't maintain records of their information sources," but that it likely came from the British Admiralty Hydrographic Office. The Times book did cite several American individuals and organizations for their "valuable contributions". Among them were the National Geographic Society, NASA, and Dr. W. H. Meynard, Jr., of the Scripps Institute of Oceanography in La Jolla, California. The latter sounded like a "horse's mouth" source, but a phone call revealed that worthy gentleman had passed away several years ago. That prompted a new round of faxes and phone calls to all government and private agencies that should know what's going on at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. Well, it's a big place, and Scripps Institute, who set out annually on survey cruises, hadn't been past Winslow since the late sixties. National Geographic puts out a dandy map of the Pacific sans water, but the scale was too large for accurate analysis. More goose-chasing led me to Dr. Walter Smith, at the NOAA Geosciences Lab in Maryland. Walter measures the earth's gravitational forces from a satellite, and they give him very accurate information on what the sea bottom looks like. He sent me some sectional maps based on his readings, that were quite revealing, and seemed to confirm our on-site observations. To wit, Winslow yes, Ghost Reef no. Well, there was a rise at the latter location, but a long way down. I asked Walter - could that mountain have collapsed since 1945? He didn't think so, and suspects many of those reef reports are off- base. "My work on the accuracy of data suggests that with celestial navigation one can be quite far off. There is a strong possibility that the objects sighted are not located at the points given." This, despite my pointing out that the shoal waters reported were in a 10 mile radius of one another. "They are probably 50 miles from the nearest (sea mount}. This would be a big navigational error, but I have seen much worse." Could the mariners have seen some other sort of natural phenomenon? Smith says it's possible, but not likely. Volcanic activity might cause a boiling effect, and even produce floating material like pumice that might be mistaken for a reef. However, this would also attract the attention of seismologists, who are always keeping their ears to the ground (sorry!). Ordinarily, this sort of thing only occurs near an active volcano with a summit in shallow water. Smith says "If you hold out hope that this is the explanation, I think you must look for geological evidence of active volcanism in this area..." So, where does that leave us? Or more precisely, Amelia? Somewhere else, it seems. The Ghost Reef doesn't, and apparently never did exist; Winslow maybe was awash 57 years ago, but at present is under 36 feet of water at its highest point. If we can believe in any of the post-splash radio messages from Earhart, she had to be on "dry" land. Maybe not dry at high tide, but dry enough when she sat down to get the radio to work. Carondelet Reef, much further southwest, does show sand occasionally, but there is a lot more promising real estate on the way there from Howland. Perhaps Amelia spotted the underwater reef, and faced with an emergency landing of some sort, crossed her fingers and headed for the sand. Of course she met with a nasty surpise, and even if she and Noonan were somehow able to launch their life wraft, it wasn't long before the Electra sank - most likely somewhere down the steep side of the Winslow sea mount. Until that mount is completely checked by a submersible, it cannot be totally dismissed. Conclusion? Keep looking. Like Mr. Micawber said; "Something will turn up!" Reno, Nevada April 7, 1994 ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:05:22 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Other possible visitors There's little question that people have visited Niku from time to time, but it's probably not a very popular place to pop in and drop anchor. The usual anchorage, off Tatiman Passage, is so unstable that most ships have had to tie off to the wreck of the Norwich City, thus drifting rather uncomfortably close to the reef edge. And the channels into the lagoon are separated from the open sea by the very shallow reef flats, and are themselves hardly deep enough to drag a skiff through. Apropos Dick's suggestion, though, should we be looking for a dead horse? Was the Electra big enough to accommodate a horse? Maybe if you fed it pingpong balls? LTM Tom King **************************************************************** From Ric Interesting hypothesis. This could be the truth behind rumors that while in Lae, Earhart's Electra was modified so that it had "more horsepower." A simple misunderstanding. Someone thought it was a reference to larger engines when in fact she had loaded a horse aboard the airplane. But why would she do that? It's obvious. She was actually planning a flight into the "horse latitudes" which are at 30 to 35 degrees north and south latitudes. And what major city is at precisely 35 degrees 42 minutes north latitude? Tokyo! Remember all of those photographs of Emperor Hirohito reviewing the troops while sitting on - what? That's right. A white horse. A quick archival check reveals that no photo showing the Emperor on that horse was taken prior to July 2, 1937. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out just what horse was aboard the Electra that morning. Now I see the veiled meaning behind Dick's sage advice to "stop beating a dead horse (Niku)." How long has he known this? Did he just find this out from Ed Dames? The mind boggles. Love to honorable mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:09:34 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Other possible visitors to Niku A point to be made for visitors prior to WWII cruising the south Pacific and Gardner Island: the maps available at the time (prior to 1937/1938) were pretty bad. In fact, it wasn't until the British came in late 1936 (I think) that the Phoenix Islands (and in particular Gardner) were located with sufficient accuracy. The American maps had Gardner so poorly mapped in outline as to render it unidentifiable! McKean was mislocated about 10 miles. If any cruiser was out to visit these islands prior to 1937, he/she would have had a tough time finding them, and if he/she did, they might not recognize where they were! Thus, most people who went to these islands landed there by accident (like the Norwich City) when their own navigation was poorly controlled. *************************************************************** From Ric Yeah. I can think of another couple of people who may have landed there by accident when their navigation was poorly controlled. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:46:57 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: R&D I'd like you to step into the hangar for some R&D work again. We're about ready to mount the new and improved home page for the TIGHAR website. You'll find the test site at: http://www.morningstarinteractive.com/development/tighar Please let me know - 1. Do you like the new look? 2. Does the prop spin for you ? (We decided not to go with the engine sound because it proved to be almost impossible to synch convincingly with the engine start animation for all platforms and it greatly slowed down the mounting time.) 3. As you pass your cursor over the "instrument" faces they should light up (known as a "rollover" effect). This effect is not yet working for me but it may be a Mac or AOL-associated problem. The project links should work but not all of the sublinks are hooked up yet. Your input will help us make sure everything is running right before we fly this puppy. Thanks, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:04:30 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Ki-54 vs L10 Well boys and girls, today I'm off to the National Air & Space Museum's Garber Facility in Suitland, MD. I'll be looking at microfilm copies of Tachikawa Ki-54 and Lockheed Model 10 blueprints in an attempt to come up with some specific answers which may help us identify the mystery airplane in the infamous Wreck Photo. You'll recall that we have pretty much narrowed own the possible candidates to these two types. The big question I hope to be able to answer today is, "Does the Ki-54 inboard leading edge wing structure feature the two big lightening holes which can be seen so easily on the the airplane in the Wreck Photo?" We know that those holes are present on the Lockheed 10. The Ki-54 at the RAAF Museum at Point Cook, Australia is only a fuselage. NASM reportedly has 178 blueprints for the Tachikawa. Perhaps one of them shows what we need to see. (The Wreck Photo can be seen in the Help Wanted part of the Earhart Project section of the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org) Stay tuned for the next exciting episode. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:25:39 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Polley's return >Dick Polley is back from the Coast Guard Loran reunion. Tom King (Project >Archaeologist), Mike Everette (Radio Historian), and I (janitor) equipped him >with about a gazillion questions to ask his fellow veterans. He'll have a >report for us soon. SOUNDS GREAT, RIC. YOU MAY HAVE SOMETHING THERE -- DICK ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:30:33 EDT From: Roberta Woods Subject: R&D comments The prop spins and the buttons all light up for me. I'm running Windows's 95 and Netscape through an independent ISP. It looks terrific! What triggers the prop to spin? Time or something else? Roberta Woods *************************************************************** From Ric Time, or thinking hard about fund raising.. ************************************************************** From Dennis McGee 0149 Yes, the prop spins for me. My nit on this special effect is that the engine does not "stutter" enough before it catches. You get one blade, two blades and then vro-o-o-o-m. I know you got A-number-one mechanics in your Tighar hanger, but I've seen enough round engines to know that nobody is THAT good al the time. Nonetheless, it works and it is a great effect. Congrats on your creativity! The lighted "instruments" are way cool, too. I think I'll copy the idea it when I re-do our site later this year (hey, I'm in P.R. where imitation is the most sincere form of flattery!). I got "URL Not Found" messages when I clicked on the Resources, Membership, Historic Preservation, and TIGHAR Tracks "instruments," which did light up. I was unsure if that was because the whole site is not yet up and running of if there was a real problem (I'm running MS Internet Explorer thru our MS NT Explorer). Good job! You should have called me when you went to Silver Hill on Thursday and I would have bought you lunch at a decent restaurant. (McGee's Maxim: Avoid eating in restaurants where the signage is primarily in yellow, red, or orange.) Dennis McGee 0149 - and damned proud of it! ************************************************************* From Ric Yellow, red or orange - I'll try to remember that. ************************************************************ From Ann 2101 I just stepped into the hangar and the new home page looks great. Yes, the prop spins for me ( Mac 7.5.5. using Netscape Navigator browser) and the instrument faces are a super addition...the rollover effect works. Have a great time at Garber...I envy you. LTM,Ann #2101 ************************************************************** From Vickie Been follow postings for quite sometime. Never felt compelled to put in my two cents worth, but here goes. Your web page is working well on a Mac. It downloads quickly and the metal plane exterior for the backdrop is great. I'm a pilot and artist so I can appreciate both the layout, the instrument buttons and good choice on leaving out the sound (sometimes less IS better). The buttons light up just as intended. All links seem to be intact (they show the address at the bottom of the browser at this point) and I like that you don't need to scroll forever on a first page. Awards are well placed and good to see that the site is appreciated. Thanks for all the dedication and work involved and I wish you immense good in your search. Vickie Indiana BTW: That prop spins for me in a major way! Cool! *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks. Could I perhaps interest you in adding a TIGHAR member number to your name? (Nothing like being propositioned in public.) ************************************************************** From Russ Matthews 0509CE 1. I like it. 2. Prop spins and stops and spins again. 3. Instruments light up (though I still found them too small to really see the logos). Earhart Project, Midnight Ghost, and Sepulchre links work (from home page only). This on an IBM running AOL 3.0 LTM Russ ************************************************************** From JHam 2128 Spins for me, but would love the sound. The three project URL's work, other four don't. They all light up. Looks good overall. Personally, I'd like to see the airplane graphic bigger. Some other thoughts (sorry, it's the advertising background). I think the individual project icons need a descriptor that entices the reader to click them - as in, "Oh, that sounds interesting". The eye goes first to the plane graphic and then the natural flow of reading normally takes it down or right. Because of this, I'd also suggest moving "The World's Leading..." line to under the picture, above the name definition, otherwise people have to "backup" to get it. And I see it as the key message for the page. Blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Bill Leary > Please let me know - > 1. Do you like the new look? I'm probably getting a bit jaded by "great" sites. It looks quite nice. > 2. Does the prop spin for you ? Yes. > (We decided not to go with the engine sound because it proved to be almost > impossible to synch convincingly with the engine start animation for all > platforms and it greatly slowed down the mounting time.) Good. I hate sites with sounds. > 3. As you pass your cursor over the "instrument" faces they should light up > (known as a "rollover" effect). This effect is not yet working for me but it > may be a Mac or AOL-associated problem. Works fine. Tested with Internet Explorer 4.0 (4.72.3110.8, SP1) and Opera 3.21. The graphic name 'dplane' isn't a Fantasy Island joke, is it? - Bill **************************************************************** From Ric I hadn't caught that, but knowing the artist I'd bet that that is exactly what it is. ************************************************************** From Randy Jacobson 1364 It spins my props and lights my icons on IE 4.01. I like the new designed page. *************************************************************** From George Kastner 0862 I use MS Internet Exploder 3 on a 486. Prop spins fine, but no "roll-over" on the dial faces. I do indeed like the overall look. Mini Tanks/GK ************************************************************** From Ric Hmmm. Maybe you need to upgrade to Exploder 4. ************************************************************** From Bob 0902 Ric, 1. I like the new look of the home page. 2. The prop spins for me. Looks good! 3. The instrument faces do not light up for me. 4. I am AOL. LTM Bob ************************************************************** From Ric Yeah, me too. I downloaded Netscape 4.0 and that solved the problem. AOL 3.0 won't support the rollover. *************************************************************** Bruce Yoho 2036E The new page works for me I found it would bring me back to my thoughts after a spell of day dreaming. The engine starts and stops about every 2 minutes. I did not time it, however. I like the page. LTM Bruce ************************************************************** From Ric Got ya thinkin' about engines again huh? ************************************************************** From Dave Bush 2200 Ric: Spins my prop big time -- everything there works like you said - the instruments light up, clicking on the propeller starts it spinning. I am at work right now and don't have sound on my computer, so don't know if we are getting a big blast of sound. Maybe we could even get more interactive and have it speed up the cooling fan on the computer to get us the propwash effect, too! Looks great. Love to Mother, Dave Bush #2200 ************************************************************* From Ric Actually, the prop spin is automatic. "Correlation is not necessarily an indicator of causation." *************************************************************** From George Mershon 2181 Great looking page! The prop spins, the plane takes off, but how and where do I land it? George Mershon 2181 ************************************************************* From Ric Retard the throttles, mixture full rich, props full increase, gear down, flaps down, line up into the wind on the reef-flat at Niku. Go for a full-stall, three-point touch down. There you go. Nice job. Now shut down and try to figure out what the problem is with the radio. When you have it fixed, call Itasca and tell them where you are so they can bring some fuel and let's get this show back on the road! ************************************************************** From Monty Fowler Ric - the prop spins fine. I'm using Windows 95 with Netscape 3.04 Gold. It starts after 10-12 seconds. The page seems to load a lot faster, which is good; the home page all fits on one page when you print it out, which is even better; and all the important links are right up top. One comment - the human eye moves from left to right, so it seems a little awkward to me to have to zig back to the left to hit the links. Your comment about "flying this puppy" reminds me of the old Far Side cartoon where two pilots are sitting on a large, chubby cheeked infant on a runway. One turns to the other and says, "OK, Bob, let's get this baby airborne." P.S. - will $25 for the Niku IIII expedition get me listed as a "bung hole boy" (nautical term for the plug in a small boat's bottom hull) or maybe "scupper screen"? Monty Fowler ************************************************************** From Ric Hey, have I ever turned down a contribution? Send it along, but I think maybe we'll call the $25 category "Deck Hand." "Bung hole boy" would have Ken Starr on our case so fast... *************************************************************** From Darrell Houghton Well done! I design websites professionally and your new site looks very nice. --- Darrell Houghton ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:13:32 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Winslow Report > Winslow Reef report, written (independently) about the same > time Jacobson's article reached substantially the same conclusions. only trouble Ric is that you used RANDY'S RESEARCH -- DICK ************************************************************* From Ric Your point escapes me. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:18:30 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Operation Sepulchre RIC- DID I EVER TELL YOU THAT I SPENT A YEAR (POST wwii) IN GERMANY, EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT THAT STASH OF GERMAN A/C IN SOME SECRET CAVE. IT'S A TOTAL B.S. AND A FABRICATION. HERE'S ANOTHER DEAD HORSE YOU SHOULD STOP FLOGGING. *************************************************************** From Ric No, you never mentioned that. By any chance did you ever work for the S.P.C.A.? ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:24:25 EDT From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Winslow Reef riffs Ric, The prop spins and the instruments light up when viewed in Netscape on my Power Mac. Looks great! Regarding the Winslow Reef speculation: Wouldn't Amelia and Fred have set out from Lae having checked out possible Plan B islands? I can't quite picture an experienced Pan Am navigator not learning his options. Especially if there weren't that many. I can't help thinking that Fred knew Winslow Reef wasn't a good choice. Hey, look at me! I'm reading the minds of dead people! And I only looked at the Ed Dames web site as a goof!!! Just shows it's never too late to pick up a new skill. Amelia says she's sorry about the confusion. She's been trying to get through to Shirley MacLaine, but the line's busy. Love to Mother, Amanda ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:33:01 EDT From: unknown Subject: Re: Other possible visitors > in fact she had loaded a horse aboard the airplane. But why would she do > that? She knew if she didn't hit Howland she'd have 1200 pounds of fresh meat (ie. didn't die of starvation-- at least by the time the Colorado's planes buzzed over! ). It was rumored Fred Preferred Benedictine after a big meal of red meat. It was also rumored they had BIG appetites. ************************************************************** From Ric You'd think that by now i would have learned not to start these things. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:23:02 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Noonan Project clue? Thanks for the input on Pan Am instrument boxes! It sure makes the box Gallagher found seem like it came from Pan Am... and was probably in the possession of Fred Noonan on the Earhart flight. Re: The Pensacola Sextant... I think you're right. Fred would not have loaned his own sextant! It was a very good sextant but it belonged to Pan Am. It was all sort of an "in house" thing. Since it appears there are no existing records that might definitely connect the Niku sextant box to Fred, I'm inclined to try anything I can to possibly srir a memory of anything at all that might help in that direction. And something that I'm just plain currious about. It's my understanding that sextants typically come with boxes. These boxes are often made of mahogany and I'm sure there would be some internal structures to hold the particular sextant in place. I would expect some facilities to hold any acessories... such as inverting eyepieces? I would expect that Pan Am would have retained the box the sextant came in. They would not have made their own box in this case, would they? If so, I guess they would have put in supporting structures to hold whatever instrument the box was built for. Gallagher immediately recognized the box found on Niku to be a sextant box, not a general purpose instrument box of some kind. My guess is that it had internal fittings obviously designed to hold a sextant... and that "piece of an inverting eyepiece" that the finder threw away. I don't know what I'm hoping for, just sort of rambling on about sextant boxes. Are you by any chance aware of any kind of gatherings of Old Pan Am people? The Kind of thing that would provide opportunity to pick a few brains? Maybe someone knows another place to look for old Pan Am records. Maybe someone would remember seeing a memo about Fred Noonan loosing still another sextant! All the best, Vern *************************************************************** From Ric While we're rambling - Your comments got me thinking about the Pensacola sextant and I went back and reviewed the paperwork that came with it. I think I may have come upon a clue to Noonan's occupational status at the time of his disappearance. W. A. Cluthe, the former Pan Am pilot who gave the sextant to the museum, states specifically in the affidavit which accompanies the artifact: "This instrument was borrowed by the undersigned who at the time was studying navigation under Mr. Noonan in preparing for service in the Pacific Division of Pan American Airways, for use in practical navigation." Clearly, Cluthe had the sextant in his possession when Noonan disappeared. If the sextant was actually Pan Am property, why didn't Cluthe return it when the instructor left the company sometime after his last clipper flight (Dec. 7, 1936) and his signing on with the Earhart World Flight (first announced on March 13, 1937)? The conclusion seems inescapable that the sextant did not belong to Pan American but to Noonan personally (just as Cluthe says) and that Cluthe was still "studying navigation under Mr. Noonan IN PREPARING for service in the Pacific Division of Pan American Airways" at a time when we know that Noonan was no longer with the company. It looks to me like Noonan was teaching navigation to Pan Am employees, or maybe even prospective Pan am employees and supplying his own training aids. There have been allegations that Noonan intended to open a navigation school after the Earhart flight. Was he, perhaps, already teaching navigation under contract to Pan Am? Mrs. Lillian Crosson recently told me of her impression that Fed Noonan, a friend of her husband (Joe Crosson, chief of PAA's Alaska Division), was merely on a leave of absence from Pan Am at the time of his disappearance. Whether or not that was the case, it is certainly true that the wife of a senior Pan Am executive was not aware of any acrimony between Noonan and the company. Launching a navigation school with a nice little contract from his former employer seems like a very logical thing for newly divorced and re-married Fred to be doing in the early months of 1937. A chance to hit the headlines again by flying with Amelia Earhart would be just the ticket. Having his own stock of sextants to loan out to students wouldn't explain why the Pensacola sexatnt box looks like a Pan Am box, but it might account for the similarity in the numbers written on the outside of the Pensacola sextant box and the Gardner Island sextant box. It strikes me that we may be able to test this hypothesis. If Fred opened a new business in California (he and Marie Bea were supposedly going to settle in the Burbank/Hollywood area) he may have needed to get a business license. A record of such a license may still exist. What do you think Noonan Project researchers? Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:05:26 EDT From: Jack J. Subject: Re: Other possible visitors That is some horsing around fit for a King! That being said. I couldn't resist. In the discussion about other possible visitors to Niku, as well as other island groups in the Pacific, I don't believe anyone has mentioned the possibility of missionaries. Most religious sexts(sic) do not require the minister, parson, etc., to remain single. When the various groups of islands were divided up after the first world war most of them went to countries with strong religious backgrounds. The missionaries went out in droves to save the poor islanders from their wicked ways. All those nasty fertility rites, rituals, and such, and no feeling of guilt. We can't have such savagery in the world now can we? Could the woman's shoe be that of a missionary's wife or daughter? As long as we are eliminating possibilities, I thought I would raise this one. I am pleased to here that you to are a model builder, and have first hand knowledge of the research and detailed effort that goes into building a scale replica from scratch. Is there any chance of getting a copy of the scale drawings of the "White-bird" from you? I would pay the copying and postage cost, etc. LTM Jack J. ************************************************************** From Ric Me and my big mouth. Pulling together the information on the White Bird will have to wait until I get some of the Earhart Project stuff beaten back (little details like the electra model specs, the next issue of TIGHAR Tracks, and the long-awaited 8th edition of the Project Book). As for missionaries on Niku - even the most ardent proselytizers needed somebody to proselytize to. Niku was uninhabited except work party of 20 Niue islanders who were there planting coconuts in 1892. The bones were discovered by the first real settlers the island had seen in modern times. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:26:03 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Winslow Reef riffs > From Amanda > Hey, look at me! I'm reading the minds of dead people! I know you're joking, but there is some truth to this sort of thing. I work as a computer programmer. I've on occasion had the displeasure of trying to fix things other people wrote. I can tell you that when you look at someone's body of work long enough you get to where you can predict how they'll handle a situation. It often got to where someone would describe a problem with a program, and I'd ask who wrote it. Upon getting the answer I could tell them where the problem would be, or how the parameters should be expressed because I knew how the other guys mind worked. I don't know that you're a professional navigator, but in instances of this sort I'd give a lot of credence to the thoughts of other navigators. Likewise, I think it would be handy to try to get into EA and FN's minds, as much as is possible from this place in time, and try to think out what they'd have done having missed their target. - Bill ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:33:05 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? I think you're on to something. I'm asking our LA Guy, Russ Matthews if he wants to follow up on it. We'll let you know what turns up. blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric Something had been bugging me about that Pensacola sextant thing for a long time but I just couldn't put my finger on it. Thanks to Vern for getting the old wheels turning. If we could establish that Fred licensed a private navigation school that had a contract with Pan Am to train navigators, it would sure make the "fired for alcoholism" charge look less credible. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:44:30 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Tachikawa NOT It literally took five minutes at the NASM Garber Facility Archives to eliminate the Tachikawa Ki-54 as a candidate for the airplane in the wreck photo. The wing structure of the Ki-54 features two spars, the forward one running just behind the leading edge of the inboard wing section. It is solid. No lightening holes at all. I've written a Wreck Photo Update which should be mounted on the TIGHAR website (www.tighar.org) as a Research Bulletin by tomorrow (Saturday) afternoon. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:00:28 EDT From: Barbara Norris Subject: Runner up? I'm thinking that it may be time to search for someone to take Dick Strippel's gift membership. Obviously, he's not terribly interested in accepting the generous offer made in his behalf. A shame for him, but why let that membership go unclaimed? So, I vote we select a runner up to fulfill his place on the membership roster. Any nominees out there? And don't we still have a student membership to fill? LTM, Barbara Norris ************************************************************** From Ric Yes, we actually have two unclaimed student memberships (sponsored by Bruce Yoho 2036E and Joel Dunlap 2183) and a full membership offered to, but unclaimed by, Dick Stripple, sponsored by Ann Hinrichs 2101. There is now a notice on the Earhart Project page of the website describing our SMP (Student Member Sponsorship or Spin My Prop) program. I feel like we have to leave it up to Ann to decide if and when her gracious, but so far ignored, offer to Dick should be withdrawn. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:04:04 EDT From: Jack J. Subject: Re: White-Bird plans and info No hurry on the White-Bird info. Any time in the next couple of years will suffice. I still have a number of details to "nail down" on NR 16020. I was hoping Williams Bros. would resolve a lot of questions with the release of their model L-10, but they did not help. They did not do their homework. Keep opening your mouth, every now and again a jewel pops out. Every now and then we all have to remember to step on the ball so we don't slip! LTM Jack J. ************************************************************** From Ric I appreciate the slack. Maybe I should wear a bib. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:17:16 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? Why wouldn't Pan Am have made its surplus sextants available to a retiree who was setting up a consulting operation to teach potential Pan Am navigators to navigate? Seems like a pretty mild version of the kind of perk that the military services and virtually everybody else extends to retirees. LTM Tom King *************************************************************** From Ric Trouble is, what would Pan Am being doing with a bunch of nautical sextants? They seem to have hired Noonan in 1930 specifically because he was an experienced ocean navigator and the airline was, for the first time, contemplating long overwater flights where dead-reckoning, pilotage and radio navigation would need to be supplemented with celestial techniques. The boys who made the runs down across the Caribbean to South America didn't shoot the stars. They island hopped. But Trippe knew that the Atlantic (his main focus) would be a different story. It was only when the Brits denied him landing rights that he turned his attention to the Pacific. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:24:55 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: the Republic of Baker and Howland Islands A side issue, to be sure, but could some historian out there answer this question. The populations of Baker and Howland Islands voted in 1990 to seek independence and established a " Compact of Free Association" with the United States on Jan. 1, 1991. Was this ever recognized by the U.S. and Britain? It's difficult to imagine a nation made up of about 500+ on one island and 600+ people on the other. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 *************************************************************** From Ric I 'spect somebody is yanking your chain. As far as I know, nobody (but nobody) lives on those islands. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:30:57 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Winslow Reef riffs Bill wrote: >I think it would be handy to try to get into EA and FN's minds, as >much as is possible from this place in time, and try to think out what >they'd have done having missed their target. Sounds like a good project for Ed Dames. Regarding the new web page: At work, the instruments light up on cue, but the prop was already spinning when the page opened. I waited a couple minutes to see if it would stop, but it seemed to be doing the Energizer Bunny thing. I use a Gateway 2000 (Pentium II), Windows NT, Netscape something or other, a whole bunch of windoze gobbledy-gook tha no sane person can understand. At home, the prop starts after a few seconds, runs for about 20 seconds, then is off for about 10 seconds, then starts again (all uncommanded) Alas, the instrument faces don't light up. At home I have a Mac Performa 550, slow as molasses but more reliable than that old Model-A your grandfather had (and more fun than any Pentium II machine ever made.) My browser is Netscape 3.0 Tom #2179 *************************************************************** From Ric I'm don't think that Bill was suggesting a psychic connection and I totally agree that to hope to achieve any real understanding of an historical person you have to try to understand the context in which they lived. The paradox, of course, is that you can never really succeed. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:38:01 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? Some comments re. Pan Am that may tie in with the sextant box. As a former PAA employee at JFK, Pan Am had carpenter shops at their major bases, JFK, MIA, SFO and probably some of the overseas areas. I used to see the JFK carpenters make custom items. If the box didn't come with the sextant from the manufacturer, then the Pan Am shop built it. They did beautiful work. It was not difficult to requisition items from Stores. Crew for instance could sign out for items and were held accountable for same. If someone left the Company, they would not be able to clear the base without returning the equipment. Ric's hypothesis based on Mrs. Crossons comments does sound plausible. Pan Am was a "self contained" organization. By that I mean they did everything in house. Engine overhaul, Navigation...( I started as a draftsman in Operations Engineering in the 50's drawing approach and let down charts, terminal area charts and Pan Am custom strip charts for the pilots manual.) It took many years before politics let Jeppesen Manual Co. in the door. They had a huge print shop and Publications Dept., produced all their own crew/maint. manuals and microfilm lab. second to none. All Flight Service menus and food for the flights was also in house. It slowly dwindled. LTM, Jack, #2157 *************************************************************** From Ric Very interesting. It sounds unlikely that the hypothetical Noonan Navigation Academy would have been teaching navigation under contract to PAA. They weren't into "outsourcing." Was Cluthe then taking instruction from Noonan in preparation for applying for a job at Pan Am? Jack? Was there any kind of exam that you took in applying for a job with the airline? Would completion of a course in navigation increase a guy's chances of getting hired? ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:41:10 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: Winslow Reef riffs I didn't see Ric reply but I appreciated your humor. Good chuckle... LTM Jack, #2157 ************************************************************** From Ric I liked it too. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:47:07 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: R&D comments Just viewed the new home page using Windows 95 and Internet Explorer. Prop spins but no belch of exhaust at start up. Prop should free wheel to a stop. Stops to fast. I do not get a light up on the instruments. I like the TIGHAR Logo on the nose of the L-10. LTM, Jack, #2157 *************************************************************** From Ric Well, I'll tell ya, we could put in smoke and we could put in sound and we could let her windmill to a stop and drip oil all over the ramp - and the home page would take about a half hour to load. It's a compromise. The instrument lightup seems to be a function of whatever web browser you're using. The older stuff won't support it, but the buttons still work. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:53:23 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: CONFOUNDING DATA From Cam Warrens Report: While not advancing our ultimate goal, Cam's report raises the bane of navigators; accuracy from about 10 degrees North Lat., on to the south. In 1851 Winslows Reef was reported to be: 01degree 40 minutes South, and 174 degrees 51 minutes West. In 1926 it was fixed at 0d 55m S and 174d 51m W Exactly the same longitude, but 45 miles further north in latitude. Now here's the rub. In the Northern hemisphere, latitude can be found within 10 degrees with the naked eye, regardlesss of time, and within 45 minutes of lat. with a sextant if one knows the time to the nearest hour! (the altitude of Polaris is the latitude, except for the 3/4 degree, plus to minus, wobble of the earth over about 24 hours). But longitude is critical to the correct time in seconds. It was not until a mariner could establish the correct time within a few seconds that accurate fixes could be obtained, particularly longitude. Capt. Wm. Bligh's real claim to fame was that he went on the fateful Bounty voyage with a clock that did not depend on a pendulm to keep the correct time. He proved its worth by navigating over several thousand miles in an open boat to Java. But I digress. The oddity is that sights 75 years apart with great improvement in chronometers established the same exact long. but differed by 45 miles in latitude. That is a real oddity. One would expect exactly the opposite. RC 941. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 12:11:31 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Invective from Strippel >By any chance did you ever work for the S.P.C.A.? NO, BUT I KNOW what happens WHEN SOMEONE IS CHAsing around in ever- diminishing circles. He flies up his own (expletive deleted) . WHEN WILL YOU LEARN TO BELIEVE SOMEONE WHO KNOWS MORE THAN YOU DO? -- DICK ************************************************************** From Ric No need to get upset. If what you say is true, it is a self-correcting problem (like smoking). If our hypotheses are wrong we won't find any evidence. If we try to kid people into thinking that what we've found is evidence, but it really isn't, then they'll soon figure that out and we won't be able to raise any of that Other People's Money you're always talking about. No money. No TIGHAR, and no Gillespie to annoy you. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 12:22:31 EDT From: Joel Dunlap Subject: Photo of the sextant box? I reread my Tighar Tracks last night so I could catch up with the forum and not ask some dumb question. I never have been able to figure out where pingpong balls fit in! Anyway, I was looking at the picture on page 10 where FN is unloading the car. I then looked on the next page at a picture of the Pensacola sextant box. What's the deminsions of one of those boxes? I got a magnifing glass out and looked at the bags on the ground at the rear of the plane and then I looked at FN. I wonder if that could be the famous box in FN's right hand. Of course I tend to see things that really aren't. Like the horse grazing in the wreck photo on page 14. Or the group of people having a picnic on the top of the wreckage, the middle one looking a lot like Ric and Tom King standing on the far right. Seriously though, is there anyone in that picture? LTM Joel Dunlap 2183 ************************************************************** From Ric No, there are no gorillas in the mist in the Wreck Photo. That has been checked out quite carefully. But your observation about the photo of the airplane being loaded is very interesting. Thank you. I see exactly what you mean. Fred is carrying two boxes, one in each hand. Either one (or both) could be sextants, but the image is way too small to say more than that. However, that same collection of photos includes one that shows a bunch of stuff on the ground in front of the cabin door. I'll take a real hard look at it and report back. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:07:57 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: R&D The new home page looks real good! The prop spins, stops and spins again -- just like it's supposed to do! And the instruments light up properly too. I'm one of those who prefer that computers not make noises. I'll not cite the archaic software I'm running here... everyone would snicker! Suffice to say, it's NOT a Macintosh system. Ric... Some guestions. How were those engines started? Was there some kind of electric starter? If so, could an engine also be started by hauling on the prop? ************************************************************** From Ric Normally an electric starter was used. In theory, the engine could be "propped" to start it but in practice it would take King Kong to prop that 550 hp Wasp. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:11:39 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: the Republic of Baker and Howland Islands yeah, I really fell for that one. Some imaginative soul had put up a very nice website for the above. When I went back to look at it today, surprise, it was gone. I should have gotten a clue when they claimed 1,000 tourists a month. Smooth Sailing, a disgruntled Ron 2126 *************************************************************** From Tom King 0391CE I think there may be some mix-up with the Republic of the Marshall Islands. The ROMI, along with the Federated States of Micronesia (a four-state nation made up of Kosrae [formerly Kusae], Pohnpei [formerly Ponape], Chuuk [formerly Truk] and Yap [formerly Yap], and a bit later the Republic of Palau [sometimes Belau, and including Peliliu, well known to WWII vets) achieved independence in "free association" with the U.S.. These Micronesian island groups, together with the Northern Marianas (Saipan et al, now the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands) made up the old Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands, administered by the U.S. under agreement with the U.N. since WWII, prior to which they were administered by Japan under a League of Nations mandate after being seized from the Germans, who took them from the Spanish.... Anyhow, Baker and Howland weren't ever part of the mandate, the TTPI, or the new "freely associated states." Love to Mother Tom King ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:13:25 EDT From: Jon Greenberg Subject: Re: R&D My prop spinneth over. And stoppeth, too. I tried it on a PC of course, both in Windows 95 and Windows NT. 28,800 (and even slower) connection through an ISP that is not AOL, using both Netscape Navigator 4.05 and Internet Explorer 4.01. Everything worked as advertised. Prop spins, stops, and spins again; all instruments light up. Some of the URLs aren't accurate, as they point to the hard drive - I assume that will be fixed when the file is transferred. It loads fairly quickly and looks good at all resolutions from 640x480 to 1024x768. I especially like the sheet metal and rivet effect. Jon Greenberg 2047 ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:16:55 EDT From: Tim Heck Subject: B-25 parts Just flipping through some old messages, and saw that the Coasties might have considered cutting up a B-25 into watch bands. My grandfather fought in the Philipennes during the war, and had several watchbands that he made out of Japanese aircraft, which he and my father say were kamikaze birds. Just a tid bit Tim **************************************************************** From Ric Yeah, that whole bit about a couple of small pieces of sheet aluminum brought o the island for making watch bands was seized upon by our critics to explain every airplane part we've found on Niku. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:19:00 EDT From: Tim Heck Subject: Re: an old posting Just a tid-bit I came across a post by the flight engineers son on barnstormer.com and he was curious about this wreck-small world eh? Tim ******************************************* Ah yes. The Mysterious Monogahela Mitchell. I have a file on it somewhere. Early 50s. B-25 ditches in the river in the middle of the night. In the morning - poof! - it's gone. Not a trace. Lots of government hush-hush. Rampant speculation that it was carrying nuclear material. Very few facts. There are still people who want to search the bottom of the river. I'm not one of them. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:15:35 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Re: Photo of the sextant box? Maybe you can derive rough measurements from these photos to compare with the Pensacola box, kind of like Noonan's head. Love to Lambrecht, The No Land Club* *************************************************************** From Ric Before we jump through too many hoops, let's think about the significance of possible results. 1. Best case: suppose we were able to read a stencilled "3500" and a 1542 off the box Fred was carrying. Wouldn't that be nice? 2. More likely: suppose the box Fred was carrying seems to be of similar dimensions to the Pensacola box. That would mean that Fred MIGHT have had a nautical sextant box aboard the Electra that was similar to another sextant box he owned. Duh. We already have Fred's statement that he usually carries a nautical sextant as a "preventer." We don't have any information about the dimensions of the box found on the island except that it was of a size appropriate for carrying a sextant. Sextants don't seem to vary much in size. I'll take a hard look at the photos, but I'll be surprised if they produce any revelations. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:39:18 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Pan Am Sextants >Trouble is, what would Pan Am being doing with a bunch of nautical sextants? >They seem to have hired Noonan in 1930 specifically because he was an >experienced ocean navigator and the airline was, for the first time, >contemplating long overwater flights where dead-reckoning, pilotage and radio >navigation would need to be supplemented with celestial techniques. They probably didn't have a bunch of nautical sextants but may have had some. They were hiring marine navigators and that's what they were familiar with. I wonder how common bubble octants were at the time? At this point, I don't know when bubble instruments suitable for use on aircraft first appeared. Since our Fred was much into navigation... teaching, maybe founding a school... he may have accumulated some nautical sextants. Any of his sextants that were going on Pan Am flights may have got Pan Am numbers put on the boxes even though not actually Pan Am property. Alternatively, the two sextant boxes most interesting to us may, by coincidence, have come out of the same shipping companies inventory system. If Fred was acquiring sextants, as they became available for whatever reason, ships he was associated with would be likely sources. Having said that, I still feel that Pan Am is the more likely candidate for having put the numbers on those boxes. *************************************************************** From Ric Well, differences of opinion are what make for horse races. (Sorry. Forget I mentioned horses. Let's not get that started again.) It seems believable that a guy who had a 20-some-odd year career as a sailor and navigator might have acquired a collection of sextants and then put them to work as "loaners" when he taught navigation. The known Noonan "loaner" sextant in Pensacola is not a K-Mart special picked up specifically as a cheapy to lend out to students. It's a 1919 Ludolf and a real collector's item even back in 1937. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:12:36 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? ... Still rambling. Keeping the little grey cells stirred up! (From Ric: to save time and space I'll answer Vern's questions in the text of his message.) >Cluthe was still "studying navigation under Mr. Noonan IN PREPARING for >service in the Pacific Division of Pan American Airways" at a time when we >know that Noonan was no longer with the company. this is nit-picking, but I don't follow the above. How do we know Cluthe was studying under Noonan AFTER Noonan had left Pan Am? In essence, how do we know when Cluthe was studying navigation? In any case, Cluthe clearly states that the sextant was the property of Fred Noonan. ************************* (From Ric: Cluthe borrowed the sextant specifically as part of his study of navigation under Noonan's tutelage. He clearly had the sextant at the time of Noonan's disappearance which was several months after Noonan's departure from Pan American. If he was not studying navigation he should have returned the valuable instrument.) >There have been allegations that Noonan intended to open a navigation school >after the Earhart flight. Was he, perhaps, already teaching navigation under >contract to Pan Am? Teaching under contract to Pan Am sure seems reasonable to me. I've done the same sort of thing (not teaching) a couple of times myself... And made more money than when I was on the payroll. Just curious... What is the source of the allegation that Fred intended to open a school? How reliable do you think it is? ************************* (From Ric: This comes from Mary Lovell's book "The Sound of Wings" -page 245-which she footnotes and attributes to "author's interview with Elgen and Marie Long, San Mareo, CA July 2, 1988." That's not a source. That's an opinion.) >Having his own stock of sextants to loan out to students wouldn't explain why >the Pensacola sextant box looks like a Pan Am box... Have we seen this box, first hand? It looks like a Pan Am box, but is it really? I'm not familiar with the kind of, probably mahogany, boxes sextants come in, but the picture in the last TIGHAR Tracks doesn't look like one to me. (From Ric: I've seen the Pensacola box first hand. It doesn't say Pan American on it. You say that the picture in TIGHAR Tracks doesn't look to you like something you say you're not familar with (?). Sextants come in many different kinds of boxes depending upon the historical period and the manufacturer.) To me, it does look like the kind of box Pan Am might have had made. So, maybe they did put the sextant in their own box. Sometime in the early 30s, nautical sextants may have become regarded as surplus property (replaced by octants) and offered for sale... Employes get first pick. A good chance to pick up some teaching aids, cheap! ************************ (From Ric: Like I said, there is no evidence or reason to believe that Pan Am ever owned any nautical sextants except perhaps to equip its survey ship S.S. North Haven.) >It strikes me that we may be able to test this hypothesis. If Fred opened a >new business in California (he and Marie Bea were supposedly going to settle >in the Burbank/Hollywood area) he may have needed to get a business license. >A record of such a license may still exist. What do you think Noonan Project >researchers? That makes sense, doesn't it? If Pan Am was going to be flying Pacific routes, a California location would be logical to continue training navigators for them. A jump-start for the "Noonan School of Navigation." (From Ric: It seemed logical to me but from recent comments from ex-employees it sounds like that sort of "outsourcing" would have been antithetical to the corporate culture.) ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:35:54 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Howland and Baker scam Thanks Tom, for the info, but this was specific to H & B, take a look at the website quick before it disappears again and I think I am seeing things. someone has gone to a lot of trouble. Smooth Sailing, Ron 2126 ************************************************************** From Ric You gotta see this website. Has to be one of the cleverest and most elaborate hoaxes since the Earhart Project. ( I thought I'd go ahead and say it before Dick Strippel got the chance.) ************************************************************** From Randy Jacobson 1364 Baker and Howland Islands are presently wildlife refuges and protected islands without habitation, and are under the jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior. ************************************************************** From Ric Uh uhhh. They even got their own website. ************************************************************** From Tom King 0391CE (TFKing106) That has got to be one of the strangest things I've ever seen. Is it an investment scam? Are there people dumb enough to invest in a place like this without checking it out? If so, why can't we find them? Perfectly amazing. Or maybe we're all going crazy..... I notice that in their history Amelia landed safely at Howland and took off again. Maybe we've tapped into some alternative universe....... I think I'll go to bed. Perchance to dream..... Love to Mother, especially if she's in the Republic Tom ************************************************************** From Ric I remember an NPR story a while back about a guy whose specialty is hoaxes just to show that it can be done. The point is usually to make fools of the media (a worthy if unambitious goal). I wonder if this is him? ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:47:43 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Noonan School of Navigation? Like a dog with one of your socks -- won't let go of it! If Fred was accumulating materials for his School of Navigation, he must have been acquiring a lot of other stuff related to the navigator's trade. One wonders what became of all that. Maybe some of it is stashed where those letters are? Is anything happening relative to that? *************************************************************** From Ric I think there's an excellent chance that if we could get our hands on those letters we'd learn a whole lot about what was really going on. Unfortunately, they are firmly in the custody of an old lady relative of Fred's second wife who is - so far - - absolutely intransigent about letting anyone see them. The issue is not money nor is there any indication that she is aware of any deep dark secret that must be protected. She just considers them to be private family papers. Our man on the scene - Don Jordan 2109 - has been working on this for many months now and is at his wit's end. We really don't want to be obnoxious about this but it's a real problem from an historical viewpoint. Does anyone out there know of similar situations in other contexts and how they were handled? LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:50:42 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Noonan's schooling Still one more Noonan post, then I'll quit! (For tonight, that is!) Quite some time ago there was some speculation about Fred attending The London School of Navigation... or some such name. Did we ever learn anything about that? *************************************************************** From Ric Nothing reference to such training turned up in his maritime record. Jerry Hamilton? Do we know anything more about this? ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:52:38 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: CONFOUNDING DATA That was an interesting observation. I just took a second closer look and your right. Wonder if the 1926 coord. is missing a number 1 making it 01 40', then it would be only 15 miles. Still a large error though. LTM, Jack, # 2157 ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:04:38 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? In answer to your queries... >Jack? Was there any kind of exam that you took in applying for a job >with the airline? 1950's - When I applied for the drafting job, I had to take an exam ( prove I could use the tools) along with an interview. Then I had OJT which included topography, navigation and the pilots manual revision system. After my military service and since I had a radio license, I moved on to Communications and then Radio Engineering ( without an exam). >Would completion of a course in navigation increase a guy's chances of >getting hired? Absolutely. I would think in the 30's, anyone certified with navigation/flight experience, would be valuable. My friend Del Freret (radio oper.) indicated when he and Noonan (mate) were with Delta shipping (1930/31) and in Santos, Brazil, a man from the airlines came aboard looking for the navigators and radio operators to offer jobs. This could have been FN's intro. to the world of aviation. 1950's - Prior experience was a must for flight crew. Most came from the military. I'm going to hedge on this one. I can't be sure but I seem to recall some form of written tests for crew canditates. In the 50's, it was not uncommon for aircraft mechanics ( cream of the crop types) to move up to flight engineer which later in some cases included pilot training in-house. FRO's and then navigators were phased out of the cockpit as more and more electronics came on-board. Navigators and some FRO's made it to pilot. There continued to be a navigation office and there was always a navigator on board on a proving flight. Capt. La Porte now deceased, an ex flying boad skipper was in the navigation office along with the chief navigator Pat Reynolds. >Was Cluthe then taking instruction from Noonan in preparation for >applying for a job at Pan Am? Ric, I guess your thinking out loud here. I can't answer this. It's also possible Capt. Cluthe was already an employee of PA and was trying to advance himself. Wonder if his personnel records are available to get an employ date. His Note in TIGHAR Tracks Vol. 14 No. 1 pg. 10 indicates the sextant was the property of FN. I wonder if that was an assumption on his part only because FN handed him the sextant to train with? I"ll bet it was PA's property on loan to FN. From what I have read, FN appeared to be an opportunist and saw a need for navigators and dollar signs. My guess is he was training people (moonlighting) and not under any contract with PA. Now that I think of it, there was a guy whose sole job was to put property tags on all equipment. This was a metal tag with Pan Am and an ident. No. I'm not sure what year the company started this practice. Maybe it was after a bunch of sextants grew legs. he he he. Hope you don't mind the memory dump. LTM, Jack, # 2157 *************************************************************** From Ric We've never been able to locate any PAA employment records but it may be worthwhile tracking down Cluthe's family. In 1968, at the time he gave the sextant to the National Museum of Naval Aviation, he signed his name W. A. Cluthe Retired Captain, Pan American World Airways Ex. C.A.P. USN, Number 12 (I have no idea what that last bit means) I think that it is very likely that he is dead by now, but if a TIGHAR member/researcher wants to try to track down his family please let me know by private email and I'll give you his address in 1968. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:08:10 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Winslow Reef riffs > From Tom Robison 2179 (tcrobi@adamswells.com) > ((..omitted..)) >Sounds like a good project for Ed Dames. > > From Ric > > I'm don't think that Bill was suggesting a psychic connection No, I wasn't. I thought my example made that clear. Though, perhaps, Tom was just extending the humor there. > and I totally agree that to hope to achieve any real understanding of an > historical person you have to try to understand the context in which they > lived. The paradox, of course, is that you can never really succeeed. Fully succeed? No. However, I expect degrees of success are quite possible. - Bill ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:29:19 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Re: Tachikawa NOT If I recall correctly, one can see the sky in the wreck photo. Years after the aircraft came to rest wherever. And Lambrecht +5 missed it? To be TIGHARICALLY correct, I will state "it is possible that the aircraft in the wreck photo escaped detection from the air". At the same time I think "no way." Love to Lambrecht, The No Land Club* *************************************************************** From Ric: Webster's New World Dictionary, 2001 Edition TIGHARICAL (tie-GAIR-ik'l) adj. - to be excruciatingly cautious in speculating about historical events. TIGHARICALLY (tie-GAIR-ik'lee) adv. - in a Tigharical manner ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:34:46 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? I'm doubtless exposing my abysmal ignorance of airy matters, but where did Pan Am come from? Any descent from a shipping line that would have had a bunch of nautical sextants in its inventory? LTM TK *************************************************************** From Ric Why should I have all the fun? Would one of our learned aviation historians write up (or steal) a brief synopsis of Mr. Trippe's company? I'm sure many of our forum subscribers would appreciate it. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:47:25 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Howland and Baker scam << thought I'd go ahead and say it before Dick Strippel got the chance.) >> THIS IS THE MOST CLEVER THING I'VE SEEN SINCE YOU STARTED THE FORUM, RIC TOO BAD YOU CAN'T CLAIM CREDIT FOR IT --DICK ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:58:01 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Noonan School of Navigation? ric -THERE'S SUPPOSED TO BE A LOT OF NOONAN CHARTS AND NOTES IN THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS. WHY DON'T YOU STOP BY THERE SOME TIME. ITS NOT THAT FAR FROM YOUR PLACE. --DICK P.S. CONGRATS AGAIN ON THE HOWLAND &BAKER VACATION PAGE!!!! *************************************************************** From Ric The Noonan charts and notes are not in the Library of Congress but in the Purdue Special Collection. Been there. Done that. Long, long ago. Randy Jacobson has also been there and has done an in-depth study of Noonan's navigational methods drawing upon the material in that collection. Could I interest you in buying a time-share slot in one of the new Niku Towers luxury condos? ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:03:21 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: Howland and Baker scam another clue is that the transportation is just too good for a population of eleven hundred (even if it existed). Hmm, I wonder how Continental Micronesia and Air Marshall Islands feel about their names being taken in vain? Gee, Ric, never mind five days of open water from Suva. Just fly into Baker and take the hydrofoil to Niku. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 *************************************************************** From Ric Having been stranded on Funafuti for six days by Air Marshall, and learning that we were lucky to be stuck for such a short time, I rather imagine that the airline is accustomed to its name being taken in vain. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:12:07 EDT From: John Rayfield Subject: Re: Howland and Baker scam I noticed a number of phone numbers were given on this site, with specific instructions on how to call them (listing an 'international code'). This is just a guess, but I suspect that this is another attempt at phone fraud - getting people to call overseas numbers that result in VERY expensive charges to their phone bills. This can even be done using an 800 number, where the call is switched from the 800 line to another overseas line, where the high charges result. John Rayfield, Jr. Springfield, Missouri *************************************************************** From Ric Nope, that's not it. The 682 country code which precedes all the phone numbers is fictional. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:27:37 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? >P.S. CONGRATS AGAIN ON THE HOWLAND &BAKER VACATION PAGE!!!! >Could I interest you in buying a time-share slot in one of the new Niku Towers >luxury condos? RE-PHRASE YOUR QUESTION. I HAVEN'T A CLUE ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. --DICK *************************************************************** From Ric It's okay Dick. Never mind. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:40:09 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Aluminum paint Here is a question for you. Might be a little off topic, but the answer could prove very helpful if pieces of the Electra are recovered. I hunt for long lost airplane wrecks in my spare time. Something I have noticed about the inside surface of the aluminum. It is always painted with the same light green primer (Zinc Chromate I think?) Not sure of the name! Yesterday, we found a very old crash in the hills above Milpitas, California. It crashed in the 40's, but was probably built in the 30's. It was a civilian plane. What I noticed odd was that the inside of the aluminum was painted a light bluish color. Not the traditional green. There wasn't much of this plane left. It was fabric covered, but did have some aluminum covering around the cabin area. The outside color was red and was very deteriorated from so many years exposed to the eliminates. The inside primer was not hardly faded at all. Durable stuff! When I got home, I checked a piece of a World War II Japanese Torpedo plane that crashed into the U.S.S. San Francisco in 1942. The pieces have the same (similar) bluish primer on them. My questions are, what was the color of the inside primer on the Earhart Electra. Also, is there any significance to the color, as far as year of manufacture, military or civilian? *************************************************************** From Ric Earhart's aircraft, built in 1936 and repaired in 1937, had no corrosion inhibiting coating applied to the interior surfaces. Some naval aircraft of that period (the PBY-1 for example) had aluminum-colored paint applied to the interior surfaces. The use of a green zinc chromate wash did not start until about 1939. Some naval aircraft of that time also used a treatment (not a coating) called anodizing which left the surface looking dullish and dark rather than shiny. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:42:55 EDT From: Ann Subject: Strippels' gift memebership I'm for giving Dick Strippel until Oct.18,1998 to respond to the gift membership offer. If you do not hear from him in reference to this, I'll be glad to offer the membership to someone else. LTM,Ann #2101 ************************************************************** From Ric The clock is ticking. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:02:25 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Noonan School of Navigation? sorry,RIC - BUT IF YOU CALL UP THE L.O.C ON THE W.W.W. YOU'LL SEE NOONAN'S STUFF LISTED ALONG WITH EVERY BOOK THATS EVER BEEN PUBLISHED . I DID SEND YOU THAT BIBLIO- DIDN'T I? -- DICK *************************************************************** From Ric No Dick. I 've never received anything from you but helpful advice. Somebody want to check out the Library of Congress site? ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:08:35 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Howland and Baker scam RIC- IS THERE A HERTZ AGENCY THERE?? and 10/11/98 13:32 RIC- LOOKS LIKE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE SCAMMED SOME PEOPLE. CONGRATS. ************************************************************** From Ric And I congratulate you upon raising the non sequitur to a high art form. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:10:17 EDT From: John Rayfield Subject: Re: Howland and Baker scam >From Ric > >Nope, that's not it. The 682 country code which precedes all the phone >numbers is fictional. Wow! The phone scam artists actually missed an idea, huh? John ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:36:19 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Noonan School of Navigation? <> GREAT SATIRE, RIC, JUST A LITTLE TOO HEAVY HANDED, THO. *************************************************************** From Ric I'm still working on my style. I figure if we don't find Amelia I may be able to get work as a stand-up comic. Maybe we could work together. I can see it now - Ric & Dick. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:45:18 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Noonan School of Navigation? YOU SAY ITS NOT AT L/O/C BUT PURDUE- YOU 'RE WRONG AND RIGHT-- LOOK UP THE L.O.C. WEB SITE. THEY'RE THERE. PURDUE ALSO HAS A WEB SITE WITH AN INDEX OF ALL ITS EARHART STUFF-QUITE INTERESTING- WHY DON'T YOU LOOK THERE, RIC. DO SOME RESEARCH FOR A CHANGE!!! ARE YOU AFRAID YOU MIGHT LOSE YOUR AMATEUR STATUS???? --DICK *************************************************************** From Ric Let me try this one more time. We've already been to Purdue. We've seen all their stuff. I didn't know that the Library of Congress also had maps and notes. It may be that their catalog references the Purdue collection, but if there is Noonan material at LoC I assure you that we'll look at it. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:49:09 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? RE SCHOOL QUESTION: >Just curious... What is the source of the allegation that Fred intended to >open a school? How reliable do you think it is? >************************* >(From Ric: This comes from Mary Lovell's book "The Sound of Wings" -page >245-which she footnotes and attributes to "author's interview with Elgen and >Marie Long, San Mareo, CA July 2, 1988." That's not a source. That's an >opinion.) The Oakland Trib reported July 3, 1937 an interview with Mary Bea in which she said, "Fred has had several good business offers and we planned to make our home in Southern California, which we both love so well." Clearly, he was planning some type of business venture. At this time he also still had his Master's license. blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric I wonder if his relationship with Gene Pallette had something to do with one of those "good business offers"? ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:51:18 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: Noonan's schooling RE LONDON NAUTICAL SCHOOL >Nothing reference to such training turned up in his maritime record. JHam? >Do we know anything more about this? Unfortunately it turned up a dead end. There is some evidence that such a school may have existed, but not anymore. I found a web site that didn't go anywhere or provide anything useful. And Jackie in Scotland was never able to find any current available info on the place. Seems like if it was once there, some type of record should exist somewhere. If anyone wants to do some investigation......my prayers are with you. blue skies, -jerry > ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:54:14 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: Re: CONFOUNDING DATA > Wonder if the 1926 coord. is missing a number 1 making it 01 40', > then it would be only 15 miles. Still a large error though. That is a good possibility. 15 miles is a larger than usual error as you say, but only to a precise navigator with good equipment. It was the exact longitude from sightings 75 years apart that caught my eye. In the old days nearly all of the errors were with longitude. I've known guys that shot Polaris with out using the correction table if it wasn't an important shot but more to just fill in a blank. Keep the faith..... RC ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:57:07 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Noonan School of Navigation? Actually, the Library of Congress does NOT have everything listed on their on-line catalog. LOC is still in the process of processing innumerable cards into electrons. Lots of the materials from the '30s and before are still in the archaic (but lovable) card catalog, where I had to spend almost all of my time browsing for interesting side information. Unfortunately, I never looked for anything published by Noonan, since I did not expect him to have published anything. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:34:58 EDT From: John Rayfield Subject: Ric & Dick >From Ric > >I'm still working on my style. I figure if we don't find Amelia I may be able >to get work as a stand-up comic. Maybe we could work together. I can see it >now - Ric & Dick. Kind of like Martin & Lewis? ************************************************************** From Ric Because Randy Jacobson is only one who ever does any real research around here I think that he deserves to have a place in the act. Ric, Dick & Randy (in the tradition Moe, Curly & Larry). Howland Island - slowly I turn - step by step..... ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:38:12 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Howland and Baker scam Actually, I went to the source listed at the bottom of the home page. This appears to be an elaborate home page done as an example of the author's capabilities. However, I would think the person would have done it with a lot of fictitious names with no connection to actual places. He apparently did his homework or found something showing the history of the islands and changed those slightly. Does seem odd that he would have put that much work into a fictional homepage, but who knows? Love To Mother, Dave Bush #2200 ************************************************************** From Ric Would you want this guy doing your website? ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:44:44 EDT From: Jack Subject: Hostage Noonan letters Ref. Vern's 10/10/98 FN letters. Send the lady a copy of May TIGHAR Tracks with FN's picture then have Don Jordan follow up with some "soft sell." LTM, Jack #2157 *************************************************************** From Ric It's way worse than that. We've tried copies of TIGHAR Tracks galore. We've given her videotapes of the documentaries. Don has enlisted the help of a favorite nephew who has pleaded our case for us. I've called her on the phone. She is just not interested. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:46:38 EDT From: Jack Subject: PAA history Rather than tie up the TIGHAR Forum with PAA history, I will be glad to shoot you a copy of the Historical Foundations Clipper newspaper with a brief but interesting story that was printed in honor of PA's first flight 70 years ago. It does not go into the Trippe family though. He was married to Betty Stettinius...name familiar? Her brother was Edward Stettinius Jr., secretary of state under Roosevelt. Nice connection eh? He was also personal friends with Charles Lindbergh who was an adviser. ************************************************************* From Ric In the meantime - Pan Am in a nutshell: The airline was the brainchild of Juan Trippe, an extremely well-connected New England rich kid who (as I recall) had served in the Air Service during the Great War. In the late 1920s, the only way an airline could hope to stay solvent was through government airmail contracts (passengers were gravy) and the system for awarding contracts was as rotten such things usually are. By playing his political cards right, Trippe was able to land lucrative overseas airmail contracts for the Caribbean and then down into South America. The key, of course, was to secure exclusive landing rights in foreign ports. It also helped to have a lock on the only airplanes that could do the job efficiently, and to that end Trippe worked closely with Igor Sikorsky to develop a series of flying boats of ever-increasing range and capacity. He recruited Lindbergh as both a crackerjack technical adviser and a publicity gold mine. To solve the annoying problem of airplanes getting lost and running out of gas over the ocean, Pan Am developed the Adcock radio navigation system where a ground station at the destination took a bearing on a signal transmitted by the airplane, then told the pilot (via his radio operator) what direction to steer. This had the distinct advantage of not requiring the pilot to think. By 1930 Trippe was well on his way toward having the Southern Hemisphere pretty well sewed up and could see that the next big opportunity was in transatlantic routes. By 1934 he had an airplane (the Sikorsky S-42) that could do the job and an even better airplane (the Martin M-130) on the drawing board. The trouble was, the British would only consider granting him landing rights if they could provide reciprocal service and they didn't have an airplane that could fly the Atlantic and make money. Juan was screwed. He had a great organization and great airplanes itching for expansion - and nowhere to fly to. That's why the Pacific Division was born in 1935. It was 1939 before scheduled passenger service was inaugurated across the North Atlantic. The point in all this (from our perspective) is that Pan American did not have its genesis in a steamship company. It was an airline from the get-go and prior to Noonan's arrival probably knew as much about celestial navigation as it did about rigging sails. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:51:44 EDT From: John Clauss Subject: Propping big engines Actually you can prop the larger engines. I learned from a fellow who has been flying piston engines for the last sixty years. Occasionally you get stuck somewhere with a dead battery. Say... Northern Japan in the dead of winter while on occupation duty. We have prop started P51's with dead batteries twice. That's 1650 cubic inches. Definitely not something for the faint of heart. LTM John ************************************************************** From Ric Just hand-propping a hot 225 Stearman on a summer afternoon can be an effective weight-loss program. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:54:07 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Gene Pallette I still think it might be profitable to find relatives of Gene Pallette, if there are any. Might of had a book deal going, or maybe a movie. Jerry H.. . .anybody in L.A. that can do some research? ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:56:59 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Winslow Reef riffs Ric wrote: > I'm don't think that Bill was suggesting a psychic connection Then Bill wrote >No, I wasn't. I thought my example made that clear. Though, perhaps, Tom >was just extending the humor there. Indeed, I was. Forgive me, my sense of humor is a little obscure sometimes. Tom #2179 **************************************************************** From Ric Dick Strippel, please note above exchange. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:05:22 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? Thanks, Jack! >Some comments re. Pan Am that may tie in with the sextant box. As a former >PAA employee at JFK, Pan Am had carpenter shops at their major bases, JFK, >MIA, SFO and probably some of the overseas areas. I used to see the JFK >carpenters make custom items. If the box didn't come with the sextant from >the manufacturer, then the Pan Am shop built it. They did beautiful work. In view of this, I can believe the box Gallagher found may have been a Pan Am box. It would have been crafted as a sextant box and he would have recognized it as such. I sure wish he had said a little more about the box! Looking at the Penascola box photo, I think it is, in fact, a Pan Am box, not the original box which was probably damaged or lost. I don't think the original box would have had screws (surely not nails!) holding the bottom on. Screws are not evident in the top. But there do appear to be some extra screws in the bottom and, perhaps, in the end we can see. These may attach some of the inside pieces for holding the sextant in place. And Re: Ric's comments... >From Ric > >Very interesting. It sounds unlikley that the hypothetical Noonan Navigation >Academy would have been teaching navigation under contract to PAA. They >weren't into "outsourcing." Was Cluthe then taking instruction from Noonan in >preparation for applying for a job at Pan Am? It sounds to me like Noonan was a Pan Am employee teaching navigation, perhaps among other things. Cluthe may have already been a PAA employee. However, the contract idea may still be a possibility. There are often exceptions to company policy, and they did eventually farm out some things. In any case, this doesn't rule out Noonan's planning to open a school of navigation. He just had not yet got to the point of parting company with PAA. And the 'round the world flight would have been real good publicity when he did decide to hang out his shingle. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:22:46 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Back to the Gilberts? >>From Amanda >>Hey, look at me! I'm reading the minds of dead people! Amanda... We know that Remote Viewing operates outside of both Time and Space. I can sit here at this computer and read what was in Amelia's mind as easily as if I had been in the cockpit with her on that fateful morning of July 2, 1937. Actually, that's a pretty safe assertion to make! There was a quote attributed to Amelia (probably an unreliable source) to the effect that, when asked what they would do if they couldn't find Howland Island, she replied, "We'll just turn back to the Gilbert Islands." I sense (by remote viewing, of course) that Amelia was rather bull-headed once she latched onto an idea. She might have insisted on retracing their course back to the Gilberts despite Fred's argument that the Phoenix Islands were a lot closer, and right on their supposed Line of Position. Could they have made it that far?? So, if Ed Dames does actually go out to the Gilberts, and if he does find a piece of the Electra, I think we DO have a conspiracy/coverup on our hands! We'll know he DID have prior knowledge and NOT obtained from remote viewing! I wonder if Dames has, or ever had, any connection with the intelligence community as he claims? I don't feel it's even worth the trouble to check out! *************************************************************** From Ric I agree, but you bring up something else that I think is worth checking out. Earhart's declared intention to turn back to the Gilbert Islands if she couldn't find Howland supposedly comes from her friend Eugene Vidal. Doris Rich (Amelia Earhart - A biography) says: "Her plan, he (Vidal) said, was to hunt for Howland Island until she had four hours of fuel left, and then, if she had not located it, to turn back to the Gilbert Islands and land on a beach." (page 273) Rich says that this comes from "Box 19, page 97" in the "Vidal Collection 6013, American Heritage Center, University of Wyoming, Laramie, Wyoming." Let's find out what that source actually says. AE's alleged statement is interesting. With four hours of gas at 130 kts (the Electra's best economical cruising speed) she can cover 520 nm in still air. That could, in theory, get her to 5 of the 16 Gilbert Islands (Nikunau, Beru, Onotoa, Tamana or Arorae). The closest, Nikunau, is 450 nm from Howland. She can do that in 3 hours and 46 minutes and if her navigation is not dead on (having started from someplace where she doesn't know where she is because she hasn't found Howland) she has all of 14 minutes to find Nikunau. For any of the other four atolls the tolerance is much tighter. This is a dumb plan, especially given the proximity of three closer alternative islands (Baker at 40 nm, McKean at 290 nm and Gardner at 350 nm) all close to a single, easily discernable navigational line (the 157 degree Line of Position). (Incidentally, Dames' wreck site is a hundred miles beyond where Earhart could have theoretically gone.) The alleged comment may, however, provide some clue as to how much fuel Earhart planned to have in reserve after flying to and looking for Howland. We need to find out when it was that Earhart supposedly said this (it must have been between the first and second attempts) and when it was that Vidal recalled that she had said it. As far as I know, Earhart was on the West Coast the whole time between the two attempts until she flew to Miami. I wonder where Vidal was? I wonder if this is a recollection by Eugene's son Gore (whose other well-publicized memories of his father's involvement in the Earhart disappearance are ludicrous). With such a specific reference we may be able to get an archivist at U. of W. to pull the document, photocopy and fax it. Any TIGHAR member out there want the job? Let me know before you do anything so that we don't have a whole bunch of people stepping on each others toes and annoying the archivist. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:30:50 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Hostage Noonan letters Perhaps the lady can have a trusted friend/attorney go through the letters and cull out matters which are personal/private and provide transcriptions of the letters with these matters deleted. Or, the lady could designate the sections of the letters she considers off limits, and TIGHAR can pay a third party to transcribe them (depending on the volume, it may not really cost much). This might work for all concerned. --Chris Kennedy *************************************************************** From Ric And it's way worse than that too. We can't even get her to talk about why she doesn't want to talk about releasing the letters. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:37:28 EDT From: Vickie Raney Subject: Re: Strippels' gift membership If no one claims Strippels' membership, I'd like to. I've wanted to join. I'm not a student at this time, but starting my own business makes things tough. I promise I won't be like him, kind of negative at times, but then some of our best learning experiences come from our antagonistic counterparts that keep us on our toes. It's going to be his loss. And actually, I think he'd have a less interesting life if he didn't have to keep his eye on you so much ;-). Vickie Indiana *************************************************************** From Ric I don't think we need to worry that Dick will go away if he doesn't accept the gift membership. Besides, if he did I'd have to invent a Dick Strippel character to replace him. Let's see what happens by the 28th deadline. I suspect we'll be able to find you a sponsor one way or the other. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:58:14 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: PAA history Oh well, it was just a thought. So where we stand is that nobody has any idea of a reason Pan Am would have sextants at all, right? In which case neither the Pensacola sextant nor the Niku box should have been Pan Am property. Yet we know the former was Noonan's, or at least was in his possession. And the two have/had similar numbers on them, but differently marked. So where would Noonan have gotten a sextant with a number on the box, that wasn't part of some large company's inventory? How about an auction house? And if so, would the items being auctioned perhaps have been given numbers, and would these numbers have had a numerical relationship to one another but not necessarily all be marked on the items in the same ways? Enough -- on to my day job. LTM Tom King *************************************************************** From Ric Hmmm. Not unreasonable. It seems unlikely that Noonan himself would have had so many sextants that he would need to have a four-digit accounting system. It also seems reasonable that whoever did have such a system had a whole bunch of items to keep track of. I wonder if the fact that both numbers start with 35 and the proximity of the year 1935 to both incidents (Cluthe's borrowing of the Pensacola sextant from Noonan ca 1937 and the discovery of the Niku box in 1940) is a coincidence? Might 35-- have been an auction house lot number? 1935 was the year that Pan Am formed the new Pacific Division with Fred as the navigator on the survey flights. Was that when he started training navigators for the new division? If so, that's the year he would have needed to get his hands on a few nautical sextants for teaching purposes. For operational purposes the company would need state-of-the-art bubble octants. Nautical sextants would be purely training aids in teaching basic celestial principles. Auction house lot numbers? Not a bad hypothesis. How do we test it? LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:12:33 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters Boy, you said a mouth full. I've tried every thing I know. She doesn't respond to anything. However, I don't remember giving her a May TIGHAR Tracks. I gave one to Jerry P. Can't hurt. I don't have one left so someone else will have to send it. I have another letter ready to send to her with the "Noonan Bio" from Jerry H. I don't want to pester her every month, so I'm waiting some time between contacts. Last night I was thinking an article about Fred and Amelia in the local newspaper might spark some interest. You know "Local guy is a member of world famous TIGHAR team. They may have located AE and Fred by doing research, not reading tea leaves" I don't know. I like the newspaper idea, but don't know what to have them print. Maybe an article without mentioning the "P" name would make her jealous. Any ideas? *************************************************************** From Ric I can certainly send her a May TT. There's another approach we could take with this, but I'm not at all sure it would work. As I recall, when she was originally given these letters she was warned not to let the word get out that she had them or "They will make your life hell." Whoever gave her that advice was right. We could fill her mailbox with polite pleas from individuals who think she should release the letters in the interest of history. In short, we could harass the old lady. The danger is that she could get mad and burn the collection. Or maybe we could just threaten to have Dick Strippel pay her a little visit. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:17:40 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? Re Noonan's intention to start a navigation school >(From Ric: This comes from Mary Lovell's book "The Sound of Wings" -page >245-which she footnotes and attributes to "author's interview with Elgen and >Marie Long, San Mareo, CA July 2, 1988." That's not a source. That's an >opinion.) IT'S ALL IN THE NEW YORK Times. BUT I don't have a cite just yet. I'VE GOT IT SOMWEWHERE IN MY IUNABRIDGED BIBLIO. I'LL SEND IT ALONG WHEN I find the Call # of Noonan,s stuff at the LOC. *************************************************************** From Ric Thank you. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:47:23 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: an old posting Ah, yes! That posting was a response to my mention of that B-25, which is a favorite anecdote of the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area, in which I reside. There are even some locally produced videotapes about it. Many Pittsburghers still have stories to tell about it. Definitely interesting stuff. Best wishes to all, Dr. Gene Dangelo 2211 ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:04:09 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Back to the Gilberts? THE GILBERTS IS MORE LOGICAL THAN NIKU. THINK ABOUT IT! --DICK and at 11:32 << (probably an unreliable source) to the effect that, when asked what they would do if they couldn't find Howland Island, she replied, "We'll just turn back.. >> I GUESS THAT IS AN UNRELIABLE SOURCE. RIC- FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, WHY DON'T YOU AT LEAST GO TO YOUR PUBLIC LIBRARY AND READ THE NEWSPAPERS COVERING THE TIME IN QUESTION ???????? YOU CAN READ, CAN'T YOU. DO SOME RESEARCH, PUH LEEZE ! --DICK ************************************************************* From Ric To the forum: This is getting a bit old. Constructive criticism is welcome. Abusive criticism is carefully considered. But this is just ranting for the sake of god-knows-what. I really hate to censor anything or anyone from the forum but - jeeeesh! Let me have some feedback about how we should handle this. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:07:19 EDT From: Roberta Woods Subject: Re: Noonan Project clue? If you haven't found anyone to try and track down Cluthe, I'll give it a go. Roberta Woods *************************************************************** From Ric First come, first served. He's all yours. I'll send the last known address by separate email. Thanks. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:25:20 EDT From: Bette Subject: Gift membership applicant I am interested in the gift membership. What is the criteria? I presently work at Keene State College, Keene, NH. I am also working on my Master's Degree in Counseling/Consultation. Is there a possibility I might be a candidate? Bette *************************************************************** From Ric Student Membership in TIGHAR is $30 per year (regular membership is $45). You're eligible for a Student Membership if you're a full time student. We currently have two Sponsored Student Memberships available (that's where a current TIGHAR member puts up the money). To qualify for a Sponsored Student Membership you must: 1. Be a full time student (grad student counts). 2. Want to be a TIGHAR member. 3. Not be able to afford the 30 bucks. 4. Promise to remember that criterion is singular and criteria is plural. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:47:28 EDT From: Jim Tierney Subject: Re: PAA history Ric--Very nice short history of PAA. I couldnt have said it better myself... Jim Tierney ************************************************************** From Ric Whew! I threw that together off the top of my head and then when I saw that you (an acknowledged PAA history devotee) had commented on it I thought, "Oh brother. Here we go." But if you liked it, I'm flattered. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:51:04 EDT From: Marty Joy Subject: Howland & Baker scam I was intrigued by the "Republic of Howland and Baker Is" thing so I contacted Mr. Abbott via E-mail. the whole thing is an educational tool called "Alternate History" or "Micronations" and can be further researched by contacting him at his WebSite. Very interesting and off-topic. Marty Joy / TIGHAR 0724C ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:08:45 EDT From: Ann Subject: gift membership I just read the message from Vickie in Indiana. If the deadline passes with no word,I would be most happy to sponsor Vickie. LTM Ann#2101 ************************************************************* From Ric Thank you. As I recall, you said the deadline is the 18th. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:23:43 EDT From: Bill Thursby Subject: About Strippel As a new member I am amazed that you and the forum have put up with him this long. If Dick has any facts or creative opinions then by all means let him continue. So far all he has done is filled up my mailbox with his rants. As the moderator of this session you have both the privilege and the responsibility to "censor' this type of nonsense. Enjoy your responsibilities! Best regards, Bill Thursby 2210 ************************************************************** From Tom King 0391CE Re. handling pointless abuse: Seems to me that if someone's going to say "read the newspapers" or "do some research," he or she should provide some indication of the newspapers he or she would like us to read, or the kind of research she or he thinks we ought to do. Doesn't need to be real specific, but SOMETHING (sorry; I shouted). If one can't do that much, one shouldn't expect to have their words spread out through the Forum. Applying this rule alone would probably filter out about 3/4 of Dick's rantings -- though you should always be at liberty to share them if you think they're worth it. LTM Tom King ************************************************************* From Jim Tierney 0821 (JimErnieT@AOL.COM) Ric- I dont like to censor anybody either.... But- He is starting to rave a bit.... Since you are the recipient of ALL msgs.-then you have to make the decision... Possibly you could run the really stupid/offensive/silly ones past Pat or your helper/office staff and get their input about whether or not it should be put out there for all to see and shake our heads at...... I trust your judgement in these matters- For the sake of all of us -His stupidities at least should be controlled... Keep up the good work---As the old British saying goes---I wouldn't have your job for a damn good pension,etc... Jim Tierney ************************************************************** From Mike Ruiz 2088 Ric: If it doesn't take too much of your time, let him rant. Strippel is great entertainment. On the other hand, if it is interfering with your efforts, just quit posting his stuff. Love to Lambrecht, The No Land CLub* ************************************************************* From Jerry Ellis 2113 In reply to your request for suggestions about Dick's messages I would like to make the following comments, essentially to Dick, at the risk of being torched by Dick himself! I perceive Dick to be a very capable person who has obviously done a lot of work related to the Earhart mystery. I have not read his book. My comments come from by 34+ years dealing with college students who are for the most part reasonably capable but also inexperienced. Most of us on the forum are, in the area of the Earhart mystery, much less experienced that Dick and many others on the forum. Lets look at this first comment. > HI GANG > > THE GILBERTS IS MORE LOGICAL THAN NIKU. THINK ABOUT IT! --DICK For Dick the answer is obvious. But Dick, for the rest of us students much less read than you, your request to think about it is exciting but leaves us frustrated. If you were to expand a little upon your suggestion and present your logic, it would be much more convincing. Now for the second part of Dick's message: > I GUESS THAT IS AN UNRELIABLE SOURCE. > RIC- FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, WHY DON'T YOU AT LEAST GO TO YOUR PUBLIC > LIBRARY AND READ THE NEWSPAPERS COVERING THE TIME IN QUESTION ???????? YOU CAN > READ, CAN'T YOU. DO SOME RESEARCH, PUH LEEZE ! > --DICK As an experienced teacher I see here more frustration for the student (us). What is the reference? What newspaper, what day, month and year? Not all libraries are going to have the same newspapers in their holdings. What is the length of time in question? July 1937? The last half of 1937? All of 1937? Knowing what newspaper you're referencing would help. I could read for days and if I didn't happen upon the one you're referring to I would still miss the point. And just what is the point you want me to look for? I perceive myself, as a chemist, to be reasonably open minded, especially to suggestions by experts like yourself Dick. And I would be willing to consider alternative solutions to this puzzle, but my free time is limited. I don't have time to search for something in a library, not even knowing if I have the correct reference, or if it is even in the library I am using, and in this case, not knowing the time period as well trying to guess what it is you have in mind. I see in Dick Strippel's comments some interesting ideas but they go wasted because there is not enough documentation to make them useful. So Dick, as much as I enjoy your postings, please state your proposed solution and give some explicit references to back it up, and your contributions will be much more useful. Maybe we can prove Ric to be wrong yet! jerry ellis #2113 *************************************************************** From Don Jordan 2109 PULL THE PLUG!!!! I'm tired already. *************************************************************** From Barabara Norris 2175 Censor away, please! Mr. Strippel's insults and insinuations are a total misuse of the forum. Besides, if we are going to encourage new membership among the student sector, this is a poor example of educated people working together for a common goal. He is entitled to his opinion--but Mr. Strippel's comments are slanderous and unjustified. Seems to me the word "harassment" would sum up his chatter pretty nicely. Enough already! Pull the plug. *************************************************************** From Jeff 2178 To Ric: There's an old saying that goes, "The person who has the most to say has the least to listen to." So it's time for Dick to stick a sock in it and jump on someone else's band wagon. He hasn't a clue as to how much time, effort and real research you and the dedicated members of your team have done and continue to do. My vote is to censor. LTM, Jeff #2178 ************************************************************** From Ric Okay, I think we have something of a consensus. In the future I will post any objection Dick wants to send that: 1. Is on topic 2. Is backed up with a specific reference to a specific source or 3. Raises a valid logical point I will not post gratuitous nastiness. Love to mother Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:33:13 EDT From: Cameron Warren Subject: Gilbert Detour, etc. Some from-the-hip thoughts - I think AE told Carl Allen of the NY Herald Trib re her intention to head for the Gilberts. Univ. of Wyoming Vidal files - I have an inventory listing somewhere, but there wasn't much of interest. However, the guy did save every scrap of paper that ever passed through his hands. Some of the Earhart stuff, though cataloged, is missing. (seems to happen when zealous researchers want a "scoop". I know of one or two serious examples, unfortunately). Time permitting, I'll dig in the files for more info - my memory isn't that good. Incidentally, I'll be in D.C. from Wednesday on, and planning to check out the LOC - what exactly were you looking for re Noonan? Cam Warren *************************************************************** From Ric Both Lovel and Rich attribute the comment to Vidal. We should see if Rich's cited source checks out. Carl Allen was the reporter whom AE supposedly told "I think I have one more big flight left in me" or words to that effect. We don't know that there's anything on Noonan at the Library of Congress. Strippel claims there is. If you have time you might take a look. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:39:39 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: PAA history Another theory for the innumerable sextants from PAA: Suppose PAA purchases a few sextants in 1935, when they start experimenting with overseas flights. As their navigational skills and experience increase, and with FJN now beginning to formally train other navigators, I would surmise (read speculate) that PAA bought another set of sextants. Wanting to maintain consistency across the board, these new sextants were somewhat different than the older ones, and the older ones became surplus or into teaching aids. Perhaps that is why Cluthe still had one, and why PAA wasn't really concerned about it being returned. Perhaps even better, FJN bought all the older sextants for his new venture as navigator instructor extraordinaire. *************************************************************** From Ric The most interesting point (for me) is that both the Pensacola sextant and the Gardner Island sextant (from what Gallagher tells us) were old fashioned nautical instruments. "Modern" bubble octants were available in 1935. I have a hard time seeing Pan Am making a mistake like that. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:47:58 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Photo of the sextant box? When you're looking at the photos and possibly finding other views of what might be a sextant box, don't forget to see if you can make yourself believe you might see a stencilled number. Stencilling just might be detectable in a photo... not readable but detectable. *************************************************************** From Ric We shall see what we shall see, but it won't have much to do with what I can make myself believe. What counts is what I can make you believe. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:56:54 EDT From: Bob Subject: Re: Noonan Project Clue Sorry to be so late in reply. Jack, 2157 was correct about the boxes and the Carpenter Shops. They turned out some great boxes. Each box was custom fitted to the instrument it was made for. The box had padded partitions built in to protect the particular instrument from damage. Any accessories would also get the same treatment. Any class Noonan was teaching on Navigation was done so under the direction of his supervisor. He didn't have a private school going on the side. Pan Am's Training Department had instructors to cover all employee classifications. All training was in house in those years. Remember, in those days Pan Am was writing the book. By the way, in the 20s and 30s, Pan Am only hired pilots who had commissions and wings of gold from the US Navy. Regular or reserve. No Navy enlisted or Army pilots were hired. When WWII started, because of Pan Am's expertise in over the water air navigation, it was awarded a contract to teach navigation to Army Air Corps Navigators. This was done at the Pan Am Miami base. The lead Navigator on the Doolittle raid of Tokyo and the Navigator on the Enola Gay, dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, were both graduates of the Miami Pan Am Navigation School. It was Noonan that passed on this expertise. LTM Bob **************************************************************** From Ric For what it's worth: the Pensacola box does not have padded partitions. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:59:22 EDT From: Bob Subject: Re: PAA History An interesting chapter left out of your PAA History was the real reason for the founding of the company. In 1925, Major Henry (Hap) Arnold had become alarmed by intelligence reports that the Columbian airline SCATA, operated by German pilots, and later a training base for Nazi pilot training, wanted to expand its routes across the very sensitive areas of the Panama Canal into the Caribbean area. It was the only airline in place to bid on the up coming air mail route into Panama. Arnold and Major Carl Spaatz formed their own company, Aviation Corporation Of America, and came up with the name Pan American Airways, to establish an airline (on paper) to outbid SCATA for these air mail routes through Panama. When they, Arnold and Spaatz, heard that Trippe was looking to form an airline in Central and South America, they gave their rights to the Pan American name and scheme to him so as to avoid the German control over the air mail routes through this sensitive area. So, the bottom line being, General's Arnold and Spaatz were the REAL founders of Pan American Airways! LTM, Bob ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:03:19 EDT From: Hugh Graham Subject: Re: Howland and Baker scam It appears to me that an idle B.A. grad named Stephen Abbott of Manchester, New Hampshire is spending his time creating his site "Stephen's Research Site", in which he quite specifically states "Alternate History Links" where the "Visit Howland and Baker" article that has caused such consternation among TIGHAR is followed by "D-Day Fails" and other obvious fiction. Stephen can be reached at stabbott@metro2000.net and after consulting www.metro2000.net/~stabbott/resume.htm someone really should put him to work, productively. Case closed. HAGraham 2201. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:14:18 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Hostage Noonan letters Ric, was there a post I missed about the Noonan letters? All of a sudden my name is on the Forum about a subject I thought most had forgotten about!!! I'd give it another few months and then let's play dirty. . .letters in the box might work. But I'd hold off on that for now. I still think an article in the local paper would show just how bad we need them. And then again, we might have to do what Jerry P. suggested. Wait for nature to take it course. If you get my drift. With all the people on this Forum, surely someone can come up with a better idea. I'm open. *************************************************************** From Ric I don't think that asking people to send polite letters would be "playing dirty" but it might be counterproductive. I mention it only as an option to be considered. An article in the local paper is not a bad idea, but if it mentions the local connection (Local Woman Hoards Valuable Historic Documents) it could be worse than a letter-writing campaign. Without a local connection it could be hard to get the coverage. You would probably have to be the local connection. And just what aspect of the Earhart mystery are you researching Mr Jordan? You'll have to finesse that one. There's an ethical question here. What responsibilities do we have as historical investigators and how do they balance with her rights as an individual? Seems to me that we have a responsibility to conduct the most thorough investigation we can so long as we do not infringe upon anyone's right of privacy. Whatever we do, we must not cross the line from attempted persuasion to harassment. There is also an image question. We live in a fish bowl and Lord knows we already have an ample cadre of critics. TIGHAR does not beat up on old ladies (or young ones either for that matter). Enthusiasm is laudable and impatience is inevitable, but let's be real careful here. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:19:17 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Howland and Baker scam > Would you want this guy doing your website? Ric: His work is good, and if I hadn't seen the new website with the prop and light up instruments, I might have said look into. However; I'm still concerned about his use of fictitious data on the website in question. Love to Mother, Dave Bush #2200 ************************************************************** From Ric Oh, I dunno. I'd much rather see an intentional spoof like that than the unintentional spoofs often passed off as Earhart books. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:29:55 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters Ric wrote: >It's way worse than that. We've tried copies of TIGHAR Tracks galore. We've >given her videotapes of the documentaries. Don has enlisted the help of a >favorite nephew who has pleaded our case for us. I've called her on the >phone. She is just not interested. Have you thought about sending her money? You might be surprised what old folks will do to get a few bucks ahead nowadays. If we know for sure that her info will yield some interesting data, I might be able to spring an old dusty sawbuck for the cause. Altruistic to the core, that's me... OK, I'll attempt a more useful suggestion... How about her preacher, minister, priest, whatever... If a person of the cloth can be convinced of the genuine historical significance of these documents, perhaps he/she can convince the dear lady to let said cleric view the documents and transcribe what is relevant. Tom #2179 **************************************************************** From Ric There you go, Don. Maybe you could masquerade as a priest? How about a letter-writing campaign where each envelope contains a ten dollar bill? Imagine the call to the police. "Hello? Yes, I want to report that I'm being harassed by people I don't know who keep sending me money." Actually, the religion angle might be worth looking into. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:31:51 EDT From: Rom Robison Subject: Re: Strippels' gift membership >From Vickie (vraney@venus.net) > >I promise I won't be like him, kind of negative at times, but then some >of our best learning experiences come from our antagonistic counterparts >that keep us on our toes. AND PLEASE, VICKIE, DON'T YELL AT US ALL THE TIME LIKE DICK DOES. ;>) LTM Tom #2179 ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:06:44 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters .. Quoting: >From Ric > >It's way worse than that. We've tried copies of TIGHAR Tracks galore. We've >given her videotapes of the documentaries. Don has enlisted the help of a >favorite nephew who has pleaded our case for us. I've called her on the >phone. She is just not interested. I recognize this scenario. It's one of the most intractable situations you will ever encounter. It's not going to change. How old would one guess this lady to be? The danger is that she will decide to destroy the letters. I don't see where we can go with this, but do I understand correctly that the nephew is sympathetic to our cause? How sympathetic? Is there any possibility that he (or perhaps some other family member, if there be such) might be able to look at what's there on our behalf? That would make it second hand information but it may be the best we can do. There may be nothing pertinent to our objectives there. **************************************************************** From Ric Early on, the sympathetic nephew obtained, and let Don photograph and photocopy, two of the letters. One was from Fred to Mary Bea written from the first world flight stop in Puerto Rico. Nothing earth-shaking but it did contain some new information. For example, in Last Flight, Earhart gives the impression that the family she and Fred stayed with in Puerto Rico were her old friends. Fred's letter makes it clear that they were, in fact, his old friends. The second letter was written from Dakar and was addressed to movie actor Eugene Pallette. It's really sort of cryptic. Fred is reporting on the progress of the flight and explaining why he hasn't been able to send telegrams sooner. We learn from that letter that ten of the thirteen hours of the transatlantic leg were flown in solid instrument conditions and the radio didn't work at all. Anyway, we have reason to think that there is a great deal of new information in the "dozens" of letters and photographs in the collection. After all, up until now we've only had an account of the world flight from 50 percent of the crew. This is the other half of the story and no researcher has ever seen it. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:15:28 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: PAA history ... Quoting Ric >The point in all this (from our perspective) is that Pan American did not have >it's genesis in a steamship company. It was an airline from the get-go and >prior to Noonan's arrival probably knew as much about celestial navigation as >it did about rigging sails. So, they brought Noonan on board to change all that. As well as pioneering Pacific routes, it looks like he taught navigation and wrote on navigation, all as part of the job with PAA. Perhaps pertinent, perhaps not, have any of his writings been found, aside from those that may be buried in the Library of Congress card files? Were his writings published somewhere? PAA publications? Some kind of magazines? *********************************************************** From Ric Yes, we have several letters and articles, including a long company memo he wrote about the navigational aspects of the China Clipper survey flight in 1935. Quite an erudite fellow was our Fred. Not at all the drunken bum of legend. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:17:49 EDT From: Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters ... Quoting Ric again: >There's another approach we could take with this, but I'm not at all sure it >would work. As I recall, when she was originally given these letters she was >warned not to let the word get out that she had them or "They will make your >life hell." > >Whoever gave her that advice was right. We could fill her mailbox with polite >pleas from individuals who think she should release the letters in the >interest of history. In short, we could harass the old lady. The danger is >that she could get mad and burn the collection. As I said before, I think this is a real danger. After reading the post from which the above was extracted, I'm even more concerned. I think we should cool it for a bit. I'm afraid we've already been harassing the lady. I suspect she will even see another TIGHAR Tracks as more harassment! I know you've been at this a long time already, but I suggest we hold off while we try to think of something better than what we've been doing. And I haven't the slightest idea what that might be! *************************************************************** From Ric I concur. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:23:46 EDT From: Dusty Subject: Re: Back to the Gilberts? I'd like to take a shot at finding out exactly what the Vidal archives at the University of Wyoming have to tell us regarding what Gene said Amelia told him about turning back to the Gilberts - if anything - if Gene and Amelia were as friendly as Susan Bulter states in her book "East To The Dawn", Amelia and Gene could have had much discussion about her plans for reaching Howland - or not reaching it as the case may be. That is the information for which I will be looking If that's okay - let me know and I'll jump right on it Love to Mother - Dusty ************************************************************** From Ric Jump, Dusty, jump. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:25:16 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Library of Congress For: Cameron Warren Re: Library of Congress Suggest you check for anything written by Fred Noonan as well as anything about him. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:28:55 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: PAA history Re. PAA History and the sextants... More simply, Noonan may have been designated as PA's navigation trainer and he conned PA into purchasing as training aids. LTM, Jack, #2157 ************************************************************** From Ric If PAA had bought the sextants wouldn't they have been PAA property? And if they were company property why would Cluthe not have returned them to the company? ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:44:58 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: About Strippel Regarding Dick's rantings:- A while back you had quite a good solution to this problem, by putting all his daily rantings into one message and labelling it "Stripple Invective" or something similar. Then those who wanted to read it and have a chuckle could, and those who were just interested in serious matters could just ignore these messages. Obviously, if Dick has a serious contribution to make then as moderator you should feel free to post this normally. (You could loose the CAPS for us though - makes it much easier to read.) LTM Simon #2120 *************************************************************** From Ric The real problem for me is the time it takes to deal with messages which add nothing to the progress of the investigation. I presently spend, on the average, about six hours each weekday (about four on weekend days) moderating the forum. To the extent that those hours advance the project, increase our understanding of the events of 1937, direct new lines of productive research, and inform interested individuals who will help support our work by joining TIGHAR and contributing their money and expertise - it's time well spent. Dick's messages seldom - if ever - contribute anything but an opportunity for me to show everybody, by contrast, what a nice guy I am. It's a cheap trick. It doesn't take much to look like a nice guy beside Strippel - and it's not worth the time. In the future you'll just have to take my word for it. I'm a nice guy. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:16:25 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: PAA history Re. your statement (last para.) response to PAA History >It was an airline from the get-go and prior to Noonans arrival, probably >knew as much about celestial navigation as rigging sails. Pan Am was already flying long haul flights to south america in 1930 with the Consolidated Commodores obtained from New York, Rio, Buenos Aires Line Inc. (NYRBA) and thats before our Mr. Noonan arrived on the scene. I'm sure there was more than dead reckoning being used. I will try to find out (just for the sake of accuracy) when celestial navigation was introduced at PA. Your "nutshell" about PAA is pretty accurate. The mail service was the key to making money and Trippe secured the first by the seat of his pants. He had no planes. He had 90 days to prove he could deliver mail from Key West to Havana and was down to one day before he would loose the contract and $25K performance bond. He borrowed a Fairchild FC-2 floatplane named La Nina and pilot Cy Caldwell. Caldwell was ferrying the the plane to Santo Domingo for West Indian Aerial Express. Caldwell objected until $250.00 was waved in his face. He took off Oct 19, 1927 at 8:04 AM flew the 90 miles in just over an hour and splashed down in Havana Harbor. The Postmaster rowed out, picked up the mail and that was the birth of PA. A more formal inaugral flight took place Oct. 28. It's interesting Trippe saw his airlines as the twentieth-century version of the old sailing clippers and named the first S-40 American Clipper. Other clippers followed. LTM, Jack, #2157 ************************************************************** From Ric My impression from reading various books is that navigation in the early days of Pan Am was not what you'd call sophisticated. The pilots were long on nerve and resourcefulness but decidedly short on book larnin'. I'll frankly be surprised if you find that there was any celestial going on prior to Noonan's arrival. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:27:48 EDT From: Bill Subject: All CAPS ban Can we ban people who use all CAPS in their messages to this forum? It's considered shouting and that's rude. He's also rude enough in other ways. Yes, his diatribe is really old and unproductive and I for one am tired of it. Thanks, Bill *************************************************************** From Ric Excellent idea. I see nothing wrong with using all CAPS to emphasize a word or two (in lieu of italicizing or underlining which may not translate across various platforms), but there's no excuse for entire lines in caps. That's shouting. Some people with disabilities may have trouble with the keyboard (Dick Strippel among them). In those cases I correct the garbling and errors as best I can before posting the message. But having a disability does not excuse bad manners. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:35:38 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re. About Strippel Re. the D.S. comments... Handle his comments the way you have been handling them...in a courteous manner. If he would only understand that you have a hypotheses ( Niku) and he (Dick) should be gentlemen enough to respect that and allow you to play it out regardless of what he thinks. If he wants to play "devil's advocate" fine, but he should do it in a more professional manner. I would not censor his comments. LTM, Jack, #2157 ************************************************************** From Ric I will not censor anyone's criticism as long as it amounts to more than unsupported personal opinion and is expressed in a civil manner, but Dick - for all his shouting - has yet to come up with one single verifiable error in anything we've said. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:40:16 EDT From: Bette Subject: Hostage Noonan letters Ric, I am new to this site and delighted to find it! What are the letters you are referring to and who is suppose to have them? Thanks for any info. Bette ************************************************************** From Ric A relative of Fred Noonan's second wife has an extensive collection of letters, photographs and clippings. Many of the letters were written by Noonan to his wife during the world flight. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:42:12 EDT From: Vickie Subject: Re: Strippels' gift membership >AND PLEASE, VICKIE, DON'T YELL AT US ALL THE TIME LIKE DICK DOES. ;>) >LTM >Tom #2179 ************************************************* To Tom #2179: I promise. Vickie Indiana ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:55:51 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters Vern wrote: > I know you've been at this a long time already, but I suggest we hold off > while we try to think of something better than what we've been doing. And I > haven't the slightest idea what that might be! I agree with that. I was starting to feel the pressure. The lady is in her mid to late seventies, her husband is the same. The nephew, I believe is more than willing to help us out. He is in his mid sixties or so. I stop to see him every two weeks or so, but have applies no pressure. I will do so again today and push a little. Will let you know what happens. What about a nice write up about the conference we had in San Carlos? "Local man attends Earhart Conference" and list the new and old evidence. Hint to the new letters, but don't mention anything specific. This town and paper are small enough, I think they would print it. As far as "Divine intervention" I'll hear anybody's confession if it will get me at those letters!!! *************************************************************** From Ric If you can get a reporter interested, I'd say go for it. If they'd like to call me I'll be happy to talk to them. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:00:04 EDT From: Roberta Woods Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters About the hostage Noonan letters: Could you persuade a research university to have the old lady donate them? They could, perhaps, make it look like she gave them something valuable -- a gift in kind donation. University libraries are looking for these things all the time. Maybe a library that already has a collection? Roberta Woods *************************************************************** From Ric It's not a question of finding an acceptable repository. We don't even need her to give the letters to anybody. She can keep the darn things. We just need to find out what they say, but she won't even discuss letting anyone see them. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:05:32 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: PAA history >If PAA had bought the sextants wouldn't they have been PAA property? And if >they were company property why would Cluthe not have returned them to the >company? If the sextants were PAA property on loan to or checked out to Noonan, and Noonan passed one on to someone else, then disappeared, leaving no one but himself accountable for the sextant, then the person may have felt that he didn't need to return it to anyone and donated it to a museum as an historical artifact. Love To Mother, Dave Bush #2200 *************************************************************** From Ric I think we're losing sight of the forest for the trees. The only thing that is going to help us is discovering the significance of the 3547 on the Pensacola box and the 3500 on the Niku box. It's a classic Type I or Type II error question. Is there a relationship between the two numbers, and therefore the two boxes, or not? ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:09:40 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters Vern wrote: >I know you've been at this a long time already, but I suggest we hold off >while we try to think of something better than what we've been doing. And I >haven't the slightest idea what that might be! > >*************************************************************** > >From Ric > >I concur. Ric: I beg to differ. Sending a Tighar Tracks is merely informational. She may read it or not. To continue to try to contact her to persuade her to change her mind is harassment - but not the mere act of sending her a newsletter. In fact, I see it as the opposite. By not sending her the newsletter, we are saying we don't think she is important enough to keep in the loop. If she contacts us and says she does not wish to receive ANY correspondence, then I would not send even the newsletter. Love to Mother, Dave Bush #2200 ************************************************************** From Ric It's already to that point. When I called her on the phone she made it clear that she did not want to discuss the matter - period. Anything we do now in the way of direct contact could be construed as harassment. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:21:56 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: PAA history A lot of large organizations number their equipment starting with the year the stuff was acquired. So equipment acquired in 1935 would be "35XX." The feds do this -- i.e. aircraft number 65-0357, 71-1389 etc.) and it seems logical (?) that any large organization could have a similar numbering system. I think going the auction house route on this is pushing the envelope, here. Besides, the auction house tags I've seen are temporary -- paper or tape --so as not to damage the item and so they can be removed. Trying to track down a particular auction house -- from God knows where -- seems to be a good recipe for a major migraine. But, then, I guess so is the search for Amelia. TIGHAR's new slogan: I search, therefore I am. ************************************************************** From Ric Not a new slogan. Intelligent searching is nothing more than disciplined thinking. And yes, cogito ergo sum. Okay, let's try this. I can think of two large organizations with which Capt. Noonan was associated. The Missippi Shipping Co. and Pan American Airways. Of the two, which do you think would be more likely to have a stock of nautical sextants? Next question: Can we find out if the Mississippi Shipping Co. had a system for cataloging equipment? Fred was still updating his marine licenses as late as February 1936. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:52:01 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Important new information In a report dated April 4, 1941, Dr. D.W. Hoodless - Principal of the Central Medical School in Suva, Fiji - recorded measurements he made of the bones found on Gardner Island in 1940 and expressed his opinion that the remains were those of a stocky, muscular male of European or mixed-race descent between the ages of 45 and 55 who stood about 5 feet 5.5 inches in height. Apparently, based upon this evaluation, British authorities dismissed the original speculation by the bones' discoverer, Colonial Officer Gerald B. Gallagher, that the remains might be those of Amelia Earhart. The bone measurements taken by Dr. Hoodless have now been evaluated by two prominent forensic anthropologists using data and technology far superior to anything available in 1941. Karin R. Burns Ph.D., of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and Richard L. Jantz, of the University of Tennessee at Knoxville have independently examined the available data and are in general agreement about what conclusions can be drawn. Drs. Burns and Jantz are presently collaborating with TIGHAR's Senior Archaeologist Thomas F. King, Ph.D. (and me) on a paper to be released concurrent with the annual meeting of the American Anthropological Association to be held in Philadelphia December 6-12, 1998. Dr. Jantz has approved the following preliminary announcement of his findings to the TIGHAR membership and the forum. ************************************************************** I have had a look at the information provided by Dr. Hoodless. It has limitations because it is so incomplete. Although six long bones are present, he presents information on only three. Same for the cranium, only four measurements. We have no way of judging the reliability of the data he does present; the measurements all seem reasonable. There are two possible problems concerning orbit breadth and tibia length. Both can be measured in a couple of ways, and we don't know how it was done. If we assume they were done in the same as our current data base, then we can make the following inferences: Sex: cranial dimensions classify as female, using Fordisc (the first interactive computer program for the classification of unknown adult crania according to race and sex using any combination of standard cranial measurements.) and assuming the skull is a person of European ancestry. Unfortunately the certainty is very low; the female/male probability is ca. .65/.35. That is assuming orbit breadth was taken the way Fordisc assumes it was. If not, it could be a couple of mm. greater. Those two mm. change the classification to male, male/female probabilities are .53/.47 Ancestry- Comparing the skull measurements to several European, Polynesian and Micronesian populations, it is most similar to Norse females, but can't be excluded from any population. The Fordisc analysis indicates the skull is more likely European than Polynesian. Stature- Dr. Hoodless got estimates varying rather widely, depending upon which bone. Using a modern reference sample I get the following: Assuming female male Humerus 66.6 in. 68.1 in. Tibia 66.1 in. 68.0 in. Radius 67.6 in. 68.4 in. The estimates do not vary greatly, certainly not to the extent of Dr. Hoodless'. If the bones are female, the best estimate is ca. 5'6" to 5'7", if male about an inch more. Since the tibia falls into line with the other variables, chances are it was measured in the same way we are doing it. The height estimates agree well with what Earhart's stature was thought to be. These estimates have confidence intervals that range from ca. 64" to 70 ". That seems to exclude her navigator, whom I believe you told me was 6' or more. It is possible to address the question more directly by turning it around and asking, what bone lengths would be expected from a women of Earhart's height? Ric communicated to me earlier that she gave her height as 5'8", but thinks she might have exaggerated it. Below I give the regression predictions of bone length from stature for a women of 5'8" and 5'7": 5'8"(172.72cm) 5'7"(170.18cm) Humerus Observed length 324 324 Predicted length 322.4 +/-10.95 318.4 +/-10.95 observed-Predicted 1.6 5.6 Radius Observed length 245 245 Predicted length 238.0 +/-9.67 236.7 +/-9.67 Observed-predicted 6.0 8.0 Tibia Observed length 372 372 Predicted length 377.9 +/-14.25 373.4 +/-14.25 Observed-predicted -5.9 -1.4 The above results clearly show that Nikumaroro bones fit Amelia Earhart's stature extremely well. The observed lengths all fall within one standard deviation of the estimates. For the humerus and tibia, the departures are trivial. What I believe you can say about these remains based on the information at hand is: (1) More likely female than male (2) More likely white than Polynesian or other Pacific Islander (3) About 5' 6-7" in height That is about where I think we are on the what the bones - as presented to us by Dr. Hoodless - can say. Obviously we cannot conclude that these bones are the remains of Amelia Earhart, in the sense of a positive identification. But the bones are consistent with what we know of her, and there is nothing I can see that would exclude her. If the actual remains are located and can be studied, obviously much more could be said. ************************************************************** From Ric In response to this new information we want to send a research team to England next month to try to find more official British correspondence which may tell us what became of the bones. We also want to investigate the chance that the bones themselves were sent to England. The need for this trip is urgent for two reasons: 1. We want to have as much information as possible in time for the release of the paper in December. 2. The archives of the Western Pacific High Commission (the most likely repository for more correspondence about the bones) is now kept at Hanslope, England but are scheduled to be "returned to the Pacific" after the first of the year. The team we want to send will consist of me, Kenton Spading 1382CE, and Kristin Tague 0905CE. Both Kenton and Kristin have distinguished themselves as team leaders on TIGHAR expeditions to Nikumaroro and as Earhart Project archival researchers. It was Kenton who found the Hoodless Report earlier this year and Kris, an archival researcher by trade, has been chasing the bones ever since the discovery of the Gallagher papers last year. We'll depart the U.S. on Sunday, November 15 and return on Sunday November 22nd. But in order to do this very important research trip we need funding. Airfares to Britain are very low right now, but so are TIGHAR's coffers. The trip will cost approximately $1,200 per team member. To help defray these costs - and to augment the team - we'll accept up to three sponsor/team members who are willing to come along and contribute $1,000 each, over and above their own expenses. We'll also greatly appreciate any other contributions forum subscribers are willing to make. This is how it's done folks. Hard work, good science, patience, absolute determination, and the support of people like you. We've said it before and it's truer than ever - the people will find Amelia. If you want to apply for a spot as a sponsor/team member please email me or phone me at (302) 994-4410. If you want to help support the research trip please send your check - payable to TIGHAR - or credit card info to: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 Or you can call in your credit card info to: phone - (302) 994-4410 fax - (302) 994-7945 Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:06:05 EDT From: Alex F. Subject: Country codes Actually, 011-682-xxx etc. is a valid country code for the Cook Islands. The next few digits may not be correct. I tried calling and got what we call a re-order (fast busy) signal in the telecom trade. A few others as follows: 692 MARSHALL ISLANDS 691 MICRONESIA 689 FRENCH POLYNESIA (Tahiti) 688 TUVALU ISLANDS 687 NEW CALEDONIA 686 KIRIBATI 685 WEST SAMOA 684 AMERICAN SAMOA 683 NIUE ISLAND 682 COOK ISLANDS 681 WALLIS & FUTUNA 680 PALAU 679 FIJI 678 VANUATU 677 SOLOMON ISLANDS 676 TONGA 675 PAPAU NEW GUINEA 674 NAURU 673 BRUNEI 6723 NORFOLK ISLAND 6722 CHRISTMAS & COCOS 6722 ANTARCTICA (CASEY) 6721 ANTARCTICA (SCOTT) 672 Australia Ext Ter 671 GUAM 670 SAIPAN & MARIANA ISLAND Regards, Alex F. # 2206 ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:09:48 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: More on Strippel Stripple seems to sing a one-note song -- lack of research. Until he changes his tune (no pun intended) I vote for not relaying the stuff. Dennis McGee 0149 ************************************************************** From Simon Ellwood Okay Ric - I didn't realise he was wasting that much of your time. In that case I fully concur with other posters - cut him off. LTM Simon ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:06:14 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: The "Love to mother" story For new forum subscribers who may be wondering what this Love to Mother (often abbreviated to LTM) business is all about, here's the story: A few years ago, a woman named Patricia Morton was doing Earhart research at the National Archives and stumbled upon a telegram dating from 1945 which contained a whole list of messages to friends and relatives from internees at a recently-liberated camp in China. One was addressed to Mr. G.P. Putnam, 10042 Valley Spring Lane, North Hollywood, California The text reads: Following message received for you from Weihsien via American embassy, Chungking: Camp liberated; all well. Volumes to tell. Love to mother (*). The (*) is explained at the bottom of the page as meaning signature omitted. The State Department forwarded the message to Putnam via SpeedLetter (a type of quick-notice letter) on August 28, 1945. The letter was sent by Eldred D. Kuppinger, Assistant Chief, Special War Problems Division. The document has no stamp to indicate that it was ever classified, nor does it have a stamp indicating that it was ever declassified. Anyone who has ever obtained formerly classified documents at the National Archives knows that they are real careful about that. There appears to be no indication that the document was ever classified. That's hardly surprising given the explanation of what a SpeedLetter is, which appears in the upper right corner of the document; "This form of communication is used in the interest of speed and economy. If a reply is necessary, address the Department of State, attention of the Division mentioned below." In Putnam's reply he merely updated his address and asked to be notified if anything else was heard. Weihsien was not a prisoner of war camp. It was a Civilian Assembly Camp - an internment camp. According to a 1995 letter by one of the American soldiers who liberated Weihsien on August 17, 1945 there were no Japanese military personnel in charge of the camp. It was run by a Mr. Izu of the Japanese Consular Service. All internees were well documented. Amelia Earhart was not there. On the 18th a general inspection was made of the camp and twelve internees were hospitalized and selected for early departure due to poor health. They were evacuated by C-47 on the 28th, the date of the telegram and the SpeedLetter. Why was such a message sent to Putnam? Sadly, it was most likely a hoax. In the years following Amelia's disappearance GP was beset by dozens of false leads and scams. Some were financially motivated. Others were apparently just cruel jokes. Whether the Weihsien message was a joke or a mistake, it's quite clear that it was not from Amelia Earhart. Nonetheless, the letter is frequently held up by conspiracy theorists as evidence that Earhart was "captured" by the Japanese, held prisoner, and returned to the U.S. after the war. This telegram and the nonsense which has surrounded it in recent years has prompted those of us most involved in TIGHAR's Earhart research to adopt the "Love to mother" closing as a reminder to keep our objectivity and skepticism intact when evaluating any new evidence. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:21:15 EDT From: Roberta Woods Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters My thoughts were to get access to the letters. I realize that she doesn't have to give them to anyone, but if we are to get access to the contents, it might be that we have to be a little more creative. Suppose a university contacted her about the letters and adding them to their collection -- for the benefit of history. This university person wouldn't be TIGHAR, but TIGHAR could work with the university after they are given to gain access to the contents. University development offices go after this type of gift all the time. Maybe the nephew knows of a school connection. Roberta ************************************************************** From Ric I hear ya Roberta. Don, it's worth checking with JP to see if there is any kind of university connection that might mean anything to her. ************************************************************** From Bette Ric, Now I understand why everyone is so interested in seeing them. Thanks! ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:21:44 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Ghosts OK, all this time I've been thinking it's Noonan's bones in the box. Now the forensic guys say more like AE. And then I recall the Ghost Maneaba story. And now things are getting really weird. I'm starting to smell smoking guns. But the last time that happened was over that damn engine. Two forward, five back, twirl around. The dance goes on. spooky skies, -jerry ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:35:38 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: PAA history Re Jack's: >Pan Am was already flying long haul flights to south america in 1930 with the >Consolidated Commodores obtained from New York, Rio, Buenos Aires Line Inc. >(NYRBA) and thats before our Mr. Noonan arrived on the scene. I'm sure there >was more than dead reckoning being used. Being a dumb archeologist again, I wonder -- was this before the bubble octant was available, and therefore would sextants have been used? Therefore would Pan Am have had a bunch of sextants (or at least a couple) in its inventory in 1937 that it had no further use for, and might have loaned or even given to employees? LTM Tom King ************************************************************** From Ric I'll check on when the bubble octant first was developed. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:46:36 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters I really like Don's press coverage idea, and was getting pretty queasy about putting the squeeze on an old lady. How about if Don drafts a press release for TIGHAR to send to the home town paper, rather than relying on a reporter to call up? Tom King ************************************************************** From Ric Sound like a plan. What do you say Don? ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:49:40 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Hostage Noonan letters As you know, but I will state this for the Forum, we agreed to keep the Noonan letters quiet! ! ! Not to make it public knowledge with out permission. We can't contact a University with out revealing what she has. My hope is to prove to her that we can keep quiet. The Forum discussion is OK, I just hope we don't have an enterprising young soul out there who decides to take matters into their own hands. This would be a big mistake! Ric is right when he says "It's way beyond that". I sent a letter to her several weeks ago and she didn't even acknowledge receiving it. Just plain NOTHING. However, I did call the nephew today. He said he talks to the Aunt all the time about unrelated matters. He is retiring at the end of this year. He said he will have more time then to help us. Perhaps he will read the letters and answer the questions I have asked. I asked him if he would find out just why it is she doesn't want us to see the letters. If we knew that, we could form a plan of attack. At this point, I don't even know what her concern is. I will work on the newspaper thing later. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:54:12 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: More About Strippel For myself, I can tolerate the verbal abuse to glean a few nuggets from Dick - I have seen his work and am impressed. But then again I am not in the direct line of fire as you are - so the buck eventually stops with you, you have to decide. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 ************************************************************** From Ric Again, I have no intention of cutting Dick off from the forum. He's just going to have to follow the same rules of civility and scholarship that everyone else does. The fact that he wrote a book does not entitle him to be a jerk. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:10:15 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: More about Strippel I quite agree with Ric that censorship is not a productive practice in a forum setting. Every reasoned opinion is of worth, whether we can readily discern the reasoning or not at first glance. Of course, in expressing such opinions, if one expects to be deemed credible, it certainly helps if civility is maintained. Furthermore, to take a position of attack on one's peers is not research-oriented, but personal, and as such, is both seriously counterproductive to the common interest and demoralizing to the group. The gravest danger is that self-righteousness knows no culpability! Let's not ever fall into that trap on either side of debate fence! That's my two cents. Thanks.---Gene Dangelo #2211 ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:18:05 EDT From: Bill Moffett Subject: Noonan Project clue? For whatever it may be worth I read somewhere--maybe Lovell's Sound of Wings--that FN knew and corresponded with P.V.H.Weems. My 1944 "Instructions for the Dalton Dead Reckoning Computer" was published by Pan American Navigation Service, 12021 Ventura Blvd., North Hollywood, CA and "sold by Weems System of Navigation, Annapolis, Maryland". don't know how this can be useful. Wonder if Weems' successors are still in biz? LTM Bill Moffet #2156 *************************************************************** From Ric We've checked into the Weem's connection but there does not seem to have been any official relationship between Fred and P.V.H. However, the success of Weem's as a purveyor of navigational instruction in Annapolis may well have given Fred the idea of trying the same thing on the West Coast. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:22:29 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Hostage Noonan letters How do you think the lady feels about Fred Noonan? Do you think she understands the TIGHAR objective? How do you think she feels about TIGHAR and its objective? *************************************************************** From Ric Correct me if I'm wrong Don, but my impression is that she couldn't care less about Fred Noonan, Amelia Earhart, TIGHAR or TIGHAR's objectives. She's an old woman who has property entrusted to her by her dear departed sister. It's family and it's nobody's business. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:31:56 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Hostage Noonan letters Give me a day or so to think of a specific topic. Any ideas? Will have to be sure to get all information correct. How about some input from Forum members! (From Ric: Don wants to put together press release for his local paper. It needs to talk about Earhart and Noonan and the importance of original source documents in historical research. The hope is that it will help shake loose the Noonan letters.) ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:37:28 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters I think Don has the right idea here. Lay low and bide our time. I also like the idea of later contacting her though her minister, priest, rabbi or whatever. The challenge here is to find out what floats this lady's boat and then take that route to convince her of the importance of her papers. She needs to believe that the papers are an extremely valuable national resource and the world -- yes, the world -- would be a poorer place it they were lost. She also needs to hear that her family members' reputations will be protected, and that she alone has the opportunity to correct earlier mis-perceptions about FN. Most importantly, these messages need to come from someone she has absolute and complete trust in. It appears that over the years she has built up layer upon layer of rationale for NOT trusting outsiders or for just being contrary. (A sidebar: There was an old coot back home who was approached many times by several people to buy an antique car he had sitting out in his cow pasture. No offer was good enough and he never volunteered a reason for not selling it. The best anyone could figure out was that he was lonely and owning the car made him feel important, wanted, and needed. The money meant nothing, but continued attention from everyone who saw the car meant a lot. Go figure.) Maybe there is a psychologist or "human relations" expert (anyone calling themselves Fraser or Niles can go straight to their rooms!) on the forum that could offer additional insight into why people act the way FN's "aunt" is acting. The worst thing that could happen would be what Don mentioned, a well-meaning cowboy doing something on his own. So, let's chill out and let the professionals handle this one. LTM Dennis McGee 0149 ************************************************************** From Ric Good points but just to clarify - she is no relation of Fred Noonan's. She is his now-deceased widow's sister. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:42:39 EDT From: George Nelson Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters If I may put in my two cents. I think that putting out a press release and indirectly turning on the worthy gentlepersons of the press on this elderly couple is just another form of HARASSMENT. I think that the idea of a university was a much preferred approach. The last thing in the world that I would want was an onslaught of the press. they are so considerate of the targets needs. George Nelson, 0580 **************************************************************** From Ric Oh God, no. We're not talking about telling the press about her. That wouldn't be harrassment. That would be persecution. We're talking about letting her see an article in the local paper about TIGHAR's Earhart research and how import original documents (like letters) are. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:31:53 EDT From: Louie Reynolds Subject: Photo analysis I have always been interested in the Amelia Earhart Flight. I have been reading your E-Mail correspondence for a while now. While may not possess the investigative savvy most of you have, I can help you in one particular area. I have the ability and the equipment to analize and enhance photography. If you have photos, negatives or slides. If you have highrez files I can work with EPS, TIFF, JPEG, Pict and others. Please let me know if I can help. Thanks, Louie Reynolds ************************************************************** From Ric Not to look a gift horse in the mouth but: Do you do this as a professional or amateur? What training do you have? What software are you using? (PS: Forget I mentioned horses) ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:34:46 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters >>From Ric > > Correct me if I'm wrong Don, but my impression is that she couldn't care less > about Fred Noonan, Amelia Earhart, TIGHAR or TIGHAR's objectives. She's an > old woman who has property entrusted to her by her dear departed sister. It's > family and it's nobody's business. I think that is about right. The nephew asked me to call him again in ten days. Maybe I'll know then. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:36:42 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters > >From Ric > > Oh God, no. We're not talking about telling the press about her. That > wouldn't be harrassment. That would be persecution. > > We're talking about letting her see an article in the local paper about > TIGHAR's Earhart research and how import original documents (like letters) > are. That is correct. . . an article that never mentions her name, or the letters. Just enough to let her know we are here and are doing research. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:09:22 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters I apologize for hogging the airways on this issue, but . . . As a former reporter, the first question I'm going to ask Don is "What is the local angle?" Is there any "public" reason this newspaper should be doing a story on AE and FN -- other than hoping the old lady will see it and have a change of heart. Did AE and FN work in the area? Did they have family here? Did they live here? As a reporter in a small town newspaper I need a local angle on an international story. Give me some help, here, already! The local angle, of course, is FN's recalcitrant "aunt-in-law," but we can't say that out loud because it may harden her position and may be construed as harassment if the paper contacts her. But, she has already heard from her nephew and others about how valuable the papers are, right? So why do we think a story in the local paper will engender more trust in this woman than a plea from a family member? If she trusts the press more than she trusts her family, she is in a distinct minority, according to the latest surveys I've seen. If we are up front with the reporter and editor and tell them his paper is being used as a way to hopefully shake loose some very valuable documents from this old lady, who knows, maybe the editor will go along with it. Public service and all, you know. But they also must agree beforehand not to interview her, not to "allude" to her presence, and not to try to contact her in any way. We can't afford to spook her. In conclusion, if the "press release" is done it should be done with the collusion of the newspaper and its editors. If the story is run "straight", i.e. an information piece with no local attributions etc. no one should send it to her "FYI," least it appears to her to be exactly what it is, a ruse to convince her to do something she does not want to do. So, we may or may not want to do a press release on an issue the old lady may or may not read on an issue she does not care about, except to not do it. Whew, where does that leave us? Good luck. *************************************************************** From Ric Dennis raises some good points. I'm not sure I go along with his advice to try to bring the paper into the conspiracy. In the first place I don't think they'd do it, and in the second place the idea of trusting the press just doesn't sit well. The fundamental question, however, is a good one. What do we hope such an article would accomplish? Convincing her that the letters are important? Is that the problem? Does she not believe that the letters are important? No. The problem is that she DOES believe that the letters are TOO important (note the effective use of caps) as private family mementoes to be released for public perusal. I suspect that, at heart, this is an invasion of privacy issue. Many of the letters are from Fred to his new wife. In the one letter we've seen - written from the first stop on the world flight - there a some expressions of affection which, although hardly reminiscent of the Starr report, are personal enough to remind you that the writer never intended for a stranger to be reading this. I suppose that it's possible that by later in the trip Fred got more specific about what he missed. We don't know that, but it would help explain the reticence. The logical answer to that possible problem is for the nephew to photocopy the letters and black out anything considered to be too personal for public consumption. We're not interested in that stuff anyway. Fred was clearly nuts about Mary Bea. We don't need further proof of that. Another possibility is that Fred had something going on with Gene Pallette that AE didn't know about - a backdoor press deal of some kind - that Mary Bea was in on. That's speculation, but the letter to Pallette is a bit strange if it's just a postcard-to-a-friend type of thing. My point here is that this seems to me like a privacy issue. Showing her, by means of a local newspaper article, that everyone is terribly interested in anything to do with Amelia Earhart could backfire. Hard to know what to do. Further ideas? ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:17:46 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters How about the angle that there has been strong public feeling / opinion that Fred Noonan was an alcoholic and that it was his drinking that was responsible for the demise of the flight (embellished a little). Couldn't find the island cos of the booze - what a cad. Now, those awfully nice chaps at TIGHAR have been doing their darnest to show that this is NOT TRUE and have been searching for any remaining documents and correspondence to show that this widely held public opinion is false and show Fred in true light - as the professional he was. Unfortunately, it has not been possible to obtain enough leads to completely vindicate Fred - but there are some tantalising leads...... TIGHAR are sure that that's what his relatives (oblique reference to the deceased sister) would have wanted - to clear Fred's name and show he definitely wasn't an alcoholic. What better way than to try and trace the correspondence he is known to have made during the round the World attempt and show that they're not the ramblings of a drunkard. LTM Simon #2120 *************************************************************** From Ric The last line of the letter to Gene Pallette is: "With kindest personal regards, and looking forward to a highball together in the not too distant future, I am Sincerely Fred Noonan" Doesn't mean a thing one way or the other, but the question is how it would be construed. Tricky issue. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:22:20 EDT From: George Kastner Subject: Being Held Hostage My feelings about Dick Strippel are unchanged from my messages to you 6 months ago: I believe that there is nothing to be gained and much to be lost from continuing to accept his invectives. Perhaps he contributed to the greater good sometime in the past, but that time is clearly gone. I don't advocate casting him aside because he is old and useless--I believe he should be cast aside because he is mean-spirited and cannot control himself. He adds nothing. He never will. Ever. You have sampled and sampled of his green apples: it is safe to say that all his green apples are sour. They always will be. Enough. Delete him forever from your life/our lives. If he comes up with good information, let him give it to someone else. Please save your energy for more useful endeavors. Certainly you have more to do than to deal with him. And please notice that the Noonan letters are also being held by an older person who is absolutely unreachable by reason. We have identical cases here, and the prognosis is the same. No joy. Ever. No slick, delicate, intelligent maneuver from whatever source--nephew, minister, scholar, reporter--is going to change the case. Let them go. About all we'll be able to do here is enlist the minister to our cause so that we can pray together that the letters are not destroyed. Concentrate your/our energies on something of value. Like the trip to England. What interesting, fabulous, productive findings about the bones. I'm tapped out and as you know I have donated recently (and I'd love to go to London--I love the place), but I'll put $100 in the mail today toward further anthropological research, but not a dime toward a membership for Dick Strippel or toward a carefully planted story about how much we want those letters. G. Kastner/#0862C ************************************************************* From Ric Thank you George. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:29:38 EDT From: Dick Merrill Subject: Re: PAA history I'm getting ready to buy an antique(I hope)octant. Can you tell us the difference between the two? Thanks, Dick Merrill *************************************************************** From Ric I'm assuming you mean the difference between a regular old nautical sextant and an aeronautical bubble octant. Easy. A nautical sextant looks just like what everybody thinks of as a sextant. A triangular shaped device with an arc across the bottom. A bubble octant looks nothing like that. It looks more like an old 8 mm home movie camera - an oddly-shaped box with an eyepiece sticking out of it. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:40:05 EDT From: Cam Warren Subject: GILBERTS QUOTE To the best of my (documented) knowledge, the first reference to AE's "Gilberts comment" was in Goerner's book, IN SEARCH OF ....", Chapter 23. As follows - "In her discussions with Eugene Vidal and William Miller, she had said, 'If we don't pick up Howland, I'll try to fly back into the Gilberts and find a nice stretch of beach. If I have to do that, let's hope I choose an island that has fresh water.'" The Gilberts, of course, were pretty thoroughly checked out by various folk, including Capt. Johnson and the ITASCA. Still haven't had a chance to check through by U of Wyoming stuff to see if there's any confirming reference. Maybe in a couple of weeks. *************************************************************** From Ric Wow. If the first time the "Gilbert's quote" ever turns up is in Goerner's 1966 book, and if there is no more contemporaneous documentation of it (a note in Vidal's papers as cited by Rich, or mention n a 1937 newspaper article about the search), then it is no more reliable than the rest of the anecdotal detritus that litters the Earhart Myth. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:42:57 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters TOPICS - FOR A PRESS RELEASE - HOW ABOUT -- Researchers bound for England to find Amelia's bones? OR Brit Conspiracy to hide Amelia's bones unearthed? OR Amelia traced to England (very open ended - will even have tabloids doing back flips to get info!) HOW ABOUT THIS FOR THE LADY WITH THE LETTERS -- Newspaper article entitled -- Key to Amelia Earhart Disappearance may rest in private collection of letters from Fred Noonan. ************************************************************** From Ric Ummmmm - no. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:12:53 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: Hostage Noonan letters I've held off on commenting, but with so many opinions on this I must jump in. Trying to manipulate anyone, even for "good" reasons, is stupid, deceitful, and lacks any integrity. And no matter how good the intentions, it backfires many times and makes things worse. It's one of the habits I'm trying to give up in old age, as I hope many of you are. Let's please not lower ourselves to manipulation. Let Don keep up the honest relationship he has with a family member, hope for the best, and let the chips fall where they may. And let's put all the brain power and creativity that's being used to try to manipulate an old lady into more productive areas. blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric Well said. Don, let's drop the press release idea. Stay in touch with JP and keep the faith. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:22:45 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: For new subscribers We've had a whole bunch of new subscribers to the forum in the last few days so I'm going to repeat this very important posting that some may have just missed: In a report dated April 4, 1941, Dr. D.W. Hoodless - Principal of the Central Medical School in Suva, Fiji - recorded measurements he made of the bones found on Gardner Island in 1940 and expressed his opinion that the remains were those of a stocky, muscular male of European or mixed-race descent between the ages of 45 and 55 who stood about 5 feet 5.5 inches in height. Apparently, based upon this evaluation, British authorities dismissed the original speculation by the bones' discoverer, Colonial Officer Gerald B. Gallagher, that the remains might be those of Amelia Earhart. The bone measurements taken by Dr. Hoodless have now been evaluated by two prominent forensic anthropologists using data and technology far superior to anything available in 1941. Karin R. Burns Ph.D., of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and Richard L. Jantz, of the University of Tennessee at Knoxville have independently examined the available data and are in general agreement about what conclusions can be drawn. Drs. Burns and Jantz are presently collaborating with TIGHAR's Senior Archaeologist Thomas F. King, Ph.D. (and me) on a paper to be released concurrent with the annual meeting of the American Anthropological Association to be held in Philadelphia December 6-12, 1998. Dr. Jantz has approved the following preliminary announcement of his findings to the TIGHAR membership and the forum. ************************************************************** I have had a look at the information provided by Dr. Hoodless. It has limitations because it is so incomplete. Although six long bones are present, he presents information on only three. Same for the cranium, only four measurements. We have no way of judging the reliability of the data he does present; the measurements all seem reasonable. There are two possible problems concerning orbit breadth and tibia length. Both can be measured in a couple of ways, and we don't know how it was done. If we assume they were done in the same as our current data base, then we can make the following inferences: Sex: cranial dimensions classify as female, using Fordisc (the first interactive computer program for the classification of unknown adult crania according to race and sex using any combination of standard cranial measurements.) and assuming the skull is a person of European ancestry. Unfortunately the certainty is very low; the female/male probability is ca. .65/.35. That is assuming orbit breadth was taken the way Fordisc assumes it was. If not, it could be a couple of mm. greater. Those two mm. change the classification to male, male/female probabilities are .53/.47 Ancestry- Comparing the skull measurements to several European, Polynesian and Micronesian populations, it is most similar to Norse females, but can't be excluded from any population. The Fordisc analysis indicates the skull is more likely European than Polynesian. Stature- Dr. Hoodless got estimates varying rather widely, depending upon which bone. Using a modern reference sample I get the following: Assuming female male Humerus 66.6 in. 68.1 in. Tibia 66.1 in. 68.0 in. Radius 67.6 in. 68.4 in. The estimates do not vary greatly, certainly not to the extent of Dr. Hoodless'. If the bones are female, the best estimate is ca. 5'6" to 5'7", if male about an inch more. Since the tibia falls into line with the other variables, chances are it was measured in the same way we are doing it. The height estimates agree well with what Earhart's stature was thought to be. These estimates have confidence intervals that range from ca. 64" to 70 ". That seems to exclude her navigator, whom I believe you told me was 6' or more. It is possible to address the question more directly by turning it around and asking, what bone lengths would be expected from a women of Earhart's height? Ric communicated to me earlier that she gave her height as 5'8", but thinks she might have exaggerated it. Below I give the regression predictions of bone length from stature for a women of 5'8" and 5'7": 5'8"(172.72cm) 5'7"(170.18cm) Humerus Observed length 324 324 Predicted length 322.4 +/-10.95 318.4 +/-10.95 observed-Predicted 1.6 5.6 Radius Observed length 245 245 Predicted length 238.0 +/-9.67 236.7 +/-9.67 Observed-predicted 6.0 8.0 Tibia Observed length 372 372 Predicted length 377.9 +/-14.25 373.4 +/-14.25 Observed-predicted -5.9 -1.4 The above results clearly show that Nikumaroro bones fit Amelia Earhart's stature extremely well. The observed lengths all fall within one standard deviation of the estimates. For the humerus and tibia, the departures are trivial. What I believe you can say about these remains based on the information at hand is: (1) More likely female than male (2) More likely white than Polynesian or other Pacific Islander (3) About 5' 6-7" in height That is about where I think we are on the what the bones - as presented to us by Dr. Hoodless - can say. Obviously we cannot conclude that these bones are the remains of Amelia Earhart, in the sense of a positive identification. But the bones are consistent with what we know of her, and there is nothing I can see that would exclude her. If the actual remains are located and can be studied, obviously much more could be said. ************************************************************** From Ric In response to this new information we want to send a research team to England next month to try to find more official British correspondence which may tell us what became of the bones. We also want to investigate the chance that the bones themselves were sent to England. The need for this trip is urgent for two reasons: 1. We want to have as much information as possible in time for the release of the paper in December. 2. The archives of the Western Pacific High Commission (the most likely repository for more correspondence about the bones) is now kept at Hanslope, England but are scheduled to be "returned to the Pacific" after the first of the year. The team we want to send will consist of me, Kenton Spading 1382CE, and Kristin Tague 0905CE. Both Kenton and Kristin have distinguished themselves as team leaders on TIGHAR expeditions to Nikumaroro and as Earhart Project archival researchers. It was Kenton who found the Hoodless Report earlier this year and Kris, an archival researcher by trade, has been chasing the bones ever since the discovery of the Gallagher papers last year. We'll depart the U.S. on Sunday, November 15 and return on Sunday November 22nd. But in order to do this very important research trip we need funding. Airfares to Britain are very low right now, but so are TIGHAR's coffers. The trip will cost approximately $1,200 per team member. To help defray these costs - and to augment the team - we'll accept up to three sponsor/team members who are willing to come along and contribute $1,000 each, over and above their own expenses. We'll also greatly appreciate any other contributions forum subscribers are willing to make. This is how it's done folks. Hard work, good science, patience, absolute determination, and the support of people like you. We've said it before and it's truer than ever - the people will find Amelia. If you want to apply for a spot as a sponsor/team member please email me or phone me at (302) 994-4410. If you want to help support the research trip please send your check - payable to TIGHAR - or credit card info to: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 Or you can call in your credit card info to: phone - (302) 994-4410 fax - (302) 994-7945 Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:36:52 EDT From: Ron DAwson Subject: More on the hostage situation I would be very reluctant to go public in the press. The old lady will probably correctly perceive this as an end-run to put more pressure on her. Smooth Sailing, Ron 2126 ************************************************************** From Don Jordan All good points. . . She may not even take the local paper. I don't know! My plan, if nothing else, is to convince her to let me read the letters for the historical information they may contain. Or possibly have the nephew read them and then we could ask him questions. Like. . ."Is there any mention of alternate plans if Howland isn't spotted"? Were either of them sick? Any mention of fuel at Lae? The only problem I can see with having the nephew read them for the content is, he is not up to date on what we are looking for. One word could be a clue and you have to know the whole story to know the clues. I guess I will just keep doing what I am doing and see what shakes loose. <> I tried that approach with the nephew already. Didn't work! <> I think I already came to that conclusion and said so in an earlier post. Thanks Jerry! ************************************************************** From Dave Bush 2200 Ric: Y'all are no fun. I mean, have you ever spent any time baiting someone. Just watching their reactions is fun. Gosh, darn, you're just missing out on so much fun. But seriously, I do agree. The lady deserves her privacy even if what she has seems important to us. It's hers and she has every right to make the decisions without any pressure from us. Though each and everyone of us feels that we might find some very valuable information in the papers and photos, we don't know for sure that we would find anything that would enhance our search. Keep on good terms with the nephew and pray for the best. Love to mother, Dave Bush #2200 **************************************************************** Ric, I cannot help but respond to the postings regarding the lady and her private personal family letters. "HOSTAGE NOONAN LETTERS." Let us please respect this woman's privacy, dignity, and integrity. Neither TIGHAR, nor any participant in the forum has any right to see the contents of those letters. The suggestions that the owner be conned out of them by impersonating a clergyman, or the suggestion that she be bribed to let "us" see them, or the suggestion that she donate them to a university so that "we" can get at them, are all disgusting and uncharacteristic of you and TIGHAR. What is next, a black bag job on her house while she is in church? Why not just keep in touch with her nephew and wait until she is ready to release the information. Ric, you are probably right about her destroying the letters if she feels pressured by ANYONE. If the press gets wind of her letters, especially the tabloids, she will be inundated with vultures and "we" risk losing the information either to destruction, or someone else's copyright. We would all like to know what is in the letters, but that end does not justify the means being proposed. As an aside, impersonating a clergyman is illegal in most, if not all states. Let us return to the dignity of honest historians and researchers who respect others privacy and integrity, and stop thinking like thugs. LOVE to MOTHER and all the older women out there! Jack J. ************************************************************** From Ric Easy there Jack. Nobody ever seriously proposed posing as a clergyman. We're all in agreement about this issue. It's always worth airing a problem and kicking around ideas if only to be sure we identify the bad ones. ************************************************************* From Suzanne T. I agree whole heartily with Jerry about not manipulating the woman with the Noonan letters. Continuing to work through the nephew is the fairest manner in which to proceed. And I believe most likely to meet success. Suzanne T. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:52:56 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Questions for Nimitz visit Wiley Rollins 2090 (wileyr@281.com) will be digging back into the goerner collection at the Nimitiz Museum to see if he can find out where Goerner got his info on the Gilberts Quote. He would also like to know what other information we still need that might be in that collection. One thing that comes to my mind is that we still don't have the transcript of the interview with Lambrecht (Senior Aviator on the Colorado) in which he tells Goerner that the "signs of recent habitation" seen on Gardner were "markers of some kind." It's not in the interview Wiley found on his first visit. Another point is Goerner's claim that the ticket Noonan got after the April 4, 1937 car accident in Fresno had "Driver had been drinking" written at the bottom. Goerner's notes, included in the material Wiley found last time, mention the accident but not the drinking allegation. Our research casts doubt on the availablilty of the original ticket at the time Fred was doing his research in the mid-1960s. Without a photocopy of the ticket, Goerner's claim remains unsubstantiated. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:03:07 EDT From: Dan Subject: bones Intriguing information, but low probability. I would guess that with 95% certainty, you could say that the bones were either male or female, with an adult height between 5 foot 2 inches and 5 foot 10 inches, race unclear, but likely to be European. This covers a lot of ground. (Maybe 95% of Tighar members?) I don't think that you will convince anyone without the actual bones and more measurements, and maybe not even then. I would still trust DNA analysis over osteology when attempting to determine the sex of bones this recent. Dan ************************************************************ From Ric I wasn't aware that sex could be determined by DNA - but you missed the point Dan. My posting was not entitled "Proof At Last!" It was called "Important New Information." Those who are waiting to be convinced will continue to wait, and even if we find the bones and do the DNA testing there will be still those who are not convinced. Remember - OJ walked. We're still engaged in the search for the truth - formulating hypotheses and testing them by looking for clues that we might be right or we might be wrong. The particular hypothesis under examination in this case is the notion that the castaway whose bones were found on Gardner Island in 1939/40, and were examined and measured in Fiji in 1941, were those of either Fred Noonan or Amelia Earhart. The news that the identification of the bones in 1941 as being those of a "short, stocky, muscular...male" is not supported by the information presented in the Hoodless Report is significant. It means that any dismissal of their importance by British authorities based upon that identification was unwarranted. The fact that modern forensic techniques and technology describe the castaway of Gardner Island in terms which match very well with what we know about Amelia Earhart is a new and important clue that our hypothesis may be correct and is worth vigorous continued testing. Let me present this from a different perspective. There are two ways to find things: A. On purpose - that is, by diligent and carefully reasoned searching. B. By accident - that is, by accident. Most important historical discoveries are made by accident - the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Ice Man, etc. The archival file which confirmed that human remains were found on Gardner was found by accident. (Whether or not it was an important historical discovery remains to be seen.) The Hoodless Report, on the other hand, was the result of a dogged search prompted by that happy accident. Likewise, this new information about the likely nature of the hapless individual who died on Gardner Island is the product of intentional, scientific research. Ironically, the way we came upon this information tends to obscure its significance. Let's suppose for a moment that this same information came to light, not in the context of a determined search for Amelia Earhart, but perhaps as the result of some general re-evaluation of forensic practices of the 1940s. As a stand-alone piece of information, the modern re-evaluation of the Gardner Island bone measurements would probably be sufficient to prompt widespread speculation that the castaway was Amelia Earhart and launch a search for the bones. For us, of course, it does not stand alone but drops neatly into place as part of a large and nearly complete puzzle. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:06:54 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Miami listings Fred is listed in the Miami city directory in 1934 as "instr., Pan Am Airways" and in 1935 as "asst. mgr" Smooth Sailing, Ron 2126 *************************************************************** From Ric Hmmmm. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:10:35 EDT From: Jon Lacey Subject: Re: Octant (antique) You're correct on the weird shape of the box, also has black felt liner, and brazilian luan or (mahogany), had 1"dia.-2.5"long brass plumb bob, and used hemp for the twine, why a plumb bob, to use in the bucket of water !! *************************************************************** From Ric Now I know how Clinton must feel. I am NEVER going to live that down. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:15:33 EDT From: Marty Joy Subject: The letters I guess I've forgotten why the letters to FN's deceased wife's sister (did I get that right?) have anything to do with the furtherance of the investigation into the AE/FN disappearance. Can anyone on the Forum square me away? *************************************************************** From Ric These are letters from FN to his wife written during the world flight. They probably do not contain any mention of where Fred intends to go if he can't find Howland, but they might answer other questions about all kinds of things we'd like to know about. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:21:17 EDT From: Chuck Jackson Subject: Inverting eyepiece solved & Dick S. I often enjoy the thrill of digging through one or more of Stanford University's delicious libraries for entire days and nights researching on one or more of my "crazy" ideas. Last night on the 30th book on land surveying with zero results I stumbled on INVERTING EYEPIECE (!!) and diverted to it. It said that the simplest eyepiece has 2 lenses but leaves the user with an inverted image. Most surveyors would prefer an erect image (no Viagra jokes please), which requires the use if 4 lenses, and that under difficult viewing conditions many will chose the inverting eyepiece, as more light gets through. Makes sense to me. As for Dick Stripple----you two (ric and dick)------- in fact, y'all, STOP ALREADY! Many of you are too sensitive, and you're "feeding" on each other in your criticism of him. If he's simply trying to express himself, you're impeding him. If he's wanting attention, you're feeding him. Lets not try to hurt him---- it ain't no good to try 'n hurt none of them human critters! And where did the idea originate that his use of CAPS meant he was shouting? I've used caps for years to EMPHASIZE----never occurred that anyone would think I was shouting. ...........in the ear of the beholder(?). ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:25:01 EDT From: Jeff Lange Subject: Re: Stripple I admire your dedication to keeping an open mind to all the rantings of Dicks', but I would have to agree with your decision to edit (censor if you will) any postings of his that don't at least have a bit of info that can be of use to the forum. I'm sure there are others that will agree. LTM Jeff # 0748C ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:30:28 EDT From: Dick Merrill Subject: Re: What we know/What we suspect As a new member, thanks for the rundown on current thinking. Also for new members could you also say a little about some of the books published in the last decade or two about AE. The two that I have read recently are Brink's book and also Buddy Brennan's "Witness to the Execution." (read Goeners book in the 60's) Do any of the ideas in these books have any validity. Thanks Dick Merrill *************************************************************** From Ric I'll be brief - no. For brief (irreverent) reviews of a whole bunch of Earhart books look on the TIGHAR website (www.tighar.org), on the Earhart Project page, at the bottom under For More Information, go to The Amelia Earhart Library and Film Festival. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:34:45 EDT From: Joel Dunlap Subject: Sextant box This is probably a ridiculous idea. Has anyone ever compared the hand written numbers on the Ludolph box with FN's hand writing where he may have written numbers? But would it really matter if he had written those numbers? Except, they are similar to the numbers on the Niku box. Just an idea and a thought. LTM, Joel Dunlap #2183 ************************************************************** From Ric The only thing ridiculous about that idea is that nobody thought of it until now. Thanks Joel. I'll do a comparison and report back. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:46:53 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Bubble sextants/octants TIGHAR member Peter Ifland 2058 is an authority on sextants. I asked him when bubble instruments first became available. His response: The earliest reference to a bubble sextant that was specifically designed for aircraft use was in the 1890's. It was an adaptation of a land based bubble system and was used for balloon position finding. The first aircraft bubble sextant that looked something like today's aircraft sextants was by a French instrument maker, Fave, and featured the use of a dome shaped bubble chamber, rather than a tube like a carpenter's level. By the early 1920's aircraft bubble sextants were readily available from The National Bureau of Standards design in the US and from Hughes in England. These instruments, that were designed specifically for aircraft use and which made sea-going sextants obsolete for use in the air, were in broad scale use by 1930. PanAm would have used these designs as their primary star sight instrument by that time. Hope this helps. My new book, "Taking the Stars - Celestial Navigation from Argonauts to Astronauts" has just hit the streets. The ninth chapter deals exclusively with instruments for aircraft navigation and, in all modesty, is an uniquely complete and richly illustrated treatment of the subject. I'll send you a flyer. Please note my new e-mail address - Best regards. Peter ********************************************* If anyone is interested, I'm sure Peter wouldn't object to email inquiries about his book. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:50:43 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: The "Love to mother" story Did you ever check with the Lutheran Church O'Seas Service in Baltimore? No one ever said, "YOU'LL NEVER GUESS WHO WAS MY ROOMIE IN CHINA!! --DICK ************************************************************* From Ric I take it that you have and they said that. Not too surprising. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:25:42 EDT From: Hugh Graham Subject: Re: Back to the Gilberts? > I sense (by remote viewing, of course) that Amelia was rather bull-headed > once she latched onto an idea. She might have insisted on retracing their > course back to the Gilberts despite Fred's argument that the Phoenix >Islands were a lot closer, and right on their supposed Line of Position. ------I am of the same opinion, but I hope I am wrong. HAGraham 2201. *************************************************************** From Ric Well, I don't know where you guys get the idea that AE was prone to disregard Noonan's navigational advice but if it comes from the incident related in Last Flight where, upon reaching the coast of Africa, she supposedly insisted on turning left when Fred said turn right, you're on shaky ground. The charts from that flight and Noonan's own account in his letter to Pallette indicate that the posthumous editor of Last Flight got that story just as wrong as he did the bit about the parachutes in Darwin. Randy Jacobson has done a detailed analysis of the South Atlantic crossing based upon the original charts with Noonan's handwritten notations in the Purdue Special Collection. It's a fascinating navigational story but there is no indication of a dispute in the cockpit. What Fred says to Pallette in his letter of June 9th is: "...to add to our woes, the African coast was enveloped in thick haze, rendering objects invisible at distances over a half mile, when we made the landfall. And our radio was out of order - it would be, in such a jam. However, with our usual good luck, if not good guidance, we barged through okay." It is always tempting to speculate about the effect of possible tension between AE and FN, but there's simply no real evidence that there WAS any. They seem to have conducted themselves as friends and professionals, each having a great deal of respect for the other's skill and commitment. Of course, from that day until this, some have approached the failure of the Lae/Howland flight with the sexist assumption that the little lady somehow acted irrationally, but that has more to do with the speculator's agenda than with any historical evidence. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:58:07 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Sextant box numbers > This is probably a ridiculous idea. Has anyone ever compared the hand > written numbers on the Ludolph box with FN's hand writing where he may > have written numbers? But would it really matter if he had written > those numbers? Except, they are similar to the numbers on the Niku > box. Just an idea and a thought. > > LTM, > Joel Dunlap > #2183 > > ************************************************************** > From Ric > > The only thing ridiculous about that idea is that nobody thought of it until > now. Thanks Joel. I'll do a comparison and report back. I'm not a handwriting expert, but my understanding is that numbers and printed characters (not handwritten) are not ven close enough to use to identify a particular individual. LTM, Dave Bush #2200 ************************************************************** From Ric I don't know either, but an initial check shows that the numbers on the bottom of the Pensacola box are not wildly different from numbers we know that Fred wrote down. It seems at least possible that he wrote the numbers on the box but there is nothing terribly distinctive about the numbers either. What does that tell us? Not much, I'm afraid. We already know that the box came from Fred. The only question is whether the numbers may have been put there by him or by someone else. Well, it's always worth asking the question. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:16:53 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Swan crew Ric: the Swan logs showed up from the National Archives on 16mm microfilm. I looked at them - very poor quality and hard to read, but can make out all crew members names and service #'s. The Swan had a complement of about 70-75. I think it might still be worthwhile trying to locate some crewmembers even though we now know what the orders were. Do you agree? If so, how do you want to handle it? If you want me to take care of it - anyone could email me and ask for as many names as they want. Let me know. ************************************************************* From Ric It sure would be nice to find someone who was aboard and remembers those visits to Gardner and can tell us if there was anything about an old airplane wreck on the island. Anyone who would like to help Ron try to chase down these guys should contact him directly at Upper14@aol.com ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:21:23 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Importance of Noonan Letters One subscriber asked why we felt the letters were important. Fred writes at every stop (we would assume). At Lae, he writes (this is purely speculation) that they forgot to retract the trailing antenna and it was snagged and damaged, so they cut the rest of the wire loose as no replacement was readily available. Perhaps in other letters he wrote about the problems with the "X-Brand" radio (we don't know for sure what radios were in the aircraft, therefore, cannot identify specific artifacts as belonging to the aircraft). Many possibilities, but we don't know for sure 'til we read the letters. This brings up another item. At each stop, they were surely interviewed by reporters. Do we know who the reporters were and where their notes (not their articles) are? Their notes might have valuable info. that may not have made it into the articles. Also, paper archives contain photos don't they? Would there be more photos available? Or did the war and time cause much of this data to be lost? We would probably have to visit each stop physically, and spent weeks poring through files, if any still exist! Thanks for listening to my meager rantings, Love To Mother, Dave Bush #2200 **************************************************************** From Ric Reporters don't generally save their notes that long. We have all of the Herald Tribune articles and several other papers as well. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:35:46 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Nimitz Holdings Before Wiley spends a dime on tickets. etc. have him write the Nimitiz Museum for a list of their Earhart holdings. I got one by return mail some years ago. Was somewhat surprised to see he had a folder on me. --Dick ************************************************************** From Ric Wiley already has seen the index and has sent me a copy of most of it (they had a copier problem while he was there). You're there right between Strine, Frank and Struble A.D., Adm. USN. TIGHAR is there too. My mom is probably there. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:40:05 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Swan crew Surely somewhere there's a list of WWII veterans' groups we could contact to try to locate Swan crew members. Would the Naval Hist. Center have this sort of data? LTM Tom King ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:10:10 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: England Trip Chris Kennedy 2068 has signed on as our first sponsor/team member for the research trip to England Nov. 15-22. He will accompany me, Kenton Spading 1382CE and Kristin Tague 0905CE as we try to track down further information about the bones and perhaps the bones themselves. We still have two sponsor/team member slots available. Applicants must be willing to cover their own expenses and make a $1,000 contribution toward offsetting TIGHAR's costs for the trip. If you're interested, contact me at TIGHAR1@AOL.com Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:33:36 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: So close! We are now within $795!!!! of having the $8,400 we need to put down the required deposit to reserve our expedition ship for the Niku IIII Expedition. Let's be clear about this. Nai'a, the ship we used for the 1997 Niku III expedition, is the ship we need for the Niku IIII expedition scheduled for April 29 -June 8, 2000. That's a Biblical forty-day chunk of time - hard to hold on a popular vessel like Nai'a. The total basic charter will be $168,000. To hold our reservation and give us the time to raise the rest of the money, we need to put down a 5% ($8,400) deposit. The deposit is refundable until one year from departure (April 29, 1999). By then we'll know how the prospects look for completing the budget. But without the deposit, Nai'a can - and will - book that time with other customers. No boat, no expedition - and in case you haven't noticed, we really need to get back to that island. Last month TIGHAR board of directors member Dick Reynolds put up a $10,000 challenge grant which allows us to meet operating expenses while putting aside earmarked donations for the boat deposit. Response to the Reynolds Challenge funding drive has now raised $7,605 from 20 contributors in six categories: Commodore - $1,000 and up Captain - $500 Mate - $250 Bosun - $100 Crew - $50 and we even added Deckhand - $25 Everyone who contributes will be listed on a frameable Certificate of Appreciation to be sent out as soon as we reach the goal and pay the deposit. Any day I could get an email from Nai'a saying, "Sorry, but a group of German tourists want to go diving in Tonga in May of 2000." It's 795 bucks. Who's going to put us over the top? Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:49:09 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Back to the Gilberts? For once we agree. I'll look up my NYT file this p.m. The more I think, the more I believe that's where the "Gilberts quote" is from. Much of Goerner and most of what's-her-name (mental block) is from the NYT. Read the entire thing some time. It will open your eyes and mind. *************************************************************** From Ric I'll be interested to learn what you find. We have concentrated on the Herald-Tribune coverage of the flight and search because that is who Earhart and Putnam had their deal with. As far as I know, anything the NYT picked up came form the wire services. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:49:14 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: So close! Oh, hell, sign me up for another Bosun and I'll figure out whose name to put it in when the fund goes over the top. You have my groaning credit card #. Love to Manganibuka Tom King ************************************************************** From Ric What's the plural of Bosun? Bosi? You've already sponsored one Bosun and two Crew. This is going to look like the King Family Certificate. $695 remaining. Who else will take a piece of that? ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:01:52 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Noonan Project T-shirts The Noonan Project T-shirts were delivered today. They look great. We'll be shipping orders next week. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:59:59 EDT From: unknown Subject: Earhart ESP I suppose your group already has heard Jackie Cochrane's "ESP" experience with Amelia about the time Earhart went down. I don't recall the details, but her story is intriguing. ********************************************************** From Ric Yes, AE and Cochrane dabbled in the occult. There is some evidence that Earhart delayed her departure from Miami until June 1st on the advice of her astrologist. (Amelia Earhart. Nancy Reagan. The same person? Think about it.) After the disappearance Jackie Cochrane claimed to have had a vision about Amelia floating in the sea. The location she described was within the area searched by the Navy. When nothing was found she got pretty discouraged about her ESP abilities. (Could Ed Dames be the illegitimate son of Jackie Cochrane?) Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:31:16 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: New Item In response to requests for a contribution premium for regular people who can't afford to buy $395 model airplanes, we are pleased to announce: The Earhart Project Mouse Pad (ta da!) This exquisitely crafted computer accessory is fashioned from the highest quality Bolivian rubber or similar material. Emblazoned upon its gray (like Amelia's eyes) surface in deep Pacific blue is the world famous TIGHAR winged logo. Below, the inscription The Earhart Project - rendered in elegant Art Deco lettering - proclaims your affiliation with the noblest quest since Galahad sought the Grail. This attractive, useful, and imminently collectible item is NOT available in stores or on any cable channel for $19.95 plus $50 for shipping and handling. It IS available to you ABSOLUTELY FREE in appreciation for a tax-deductible (within the limits of U.S. law) $15 contribution to TIGHAR. Send your check payable to TIGHAR, or credit card info to: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 Credit card orders can also be called in to: phone (302) 994-4410 fax (302) 994- 7945 Or, if we're aleady holding your card hostage just send an email. sorry, no c.o.d.s ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 09:36:11 EDT From: Roberta Woods Subject: AE & ESP Some Jackie Cochran trivia relating to AE. Jackie Cochran had convinced Amelia about the accuracy of her ESP during some tests the two women conducted in the year prior to AE's last flight. According to Cochran's autobiography, Amelia believed that if all else failed and she went down, Jackie would locate her. Whatever Jackie "saw" (including the name of a Japanese fishing vessel supposedly near the crash site) she wrote on a piece of paper and gave to G.P. So far as I know that note has never surfaced. Jackie believed that Amelia lived only three days and that Noonan died within a day following their crash-at-sea. According to the same autobiography, Jackie said that Noonan had a serious head injury. The experience of not being able to come through for Amelia so disheartened Cochran that she ignored her intuition afterward. Love to Mother, Roberta Woods #2218 ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 09:48:51 EDT From: Stephen Subject: Re: About Strippel Re - "Dick - for all his shouting - has yet to come up with one single verifiable error in anything we've said." That's exactly what makes his efforts to do so SO amusing! I can understand why you are tiring of the slander, but I will miss the humor aspect of his postings. They definately show by example how counter-productive having a closed mind can be, and remind us not to fall into that trap! And you were right as well when you said that they make you, by contrast look like a nice guy. Nothing wrong with that!:) *************************************************************** From Ric As you may have noticed, Dick is still with us and actually saying he will do some research. But you're right. He's not as funny as he used to be and I'm forced to resort to other devices to perpetuate my nice guy image (like refusing to beat up old ladies - geeesh.). ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 09:54:00 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Swan crew search i posted a message on a navy network requesting contact by former u.s.s. swan crewmembers back in august, unfortunatey i've received no responses to date. even if a crewmember were in his early twenties at the time of the swan's voyage, he'd now be in his mid to late 70's (assuming he would still be alive) & might not be all that active with regard to following postings on a navy network. tracking down each of the former crewmembers listed on the ship's log will be a very expensive, time consuming (frustrating) task, once all of the now deceased members are weeded out. perhaps "friendly" media or newspaper types might be willing to broadcast/print a nationwide appeal for contact by former crewmembers? yours truly, don neumann sandon@webtv.net ************************************************************* From Ric I think we'd need something stronger than our vague suspicions to interest print or broadcast media in a nationwide appeal. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 10:04:13 EDT From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Re: New Item Well, I do not think of it as "Holding my card Hostage" but rather in Trust. One Mouse Pad please. One of them $100 Dollar Certificates for the Boat to Niku. Thanks LTM Bruce ************************************************************** From Ric You got it Bruce. Okay, we're down to $595 - and counting. **************************************************************** From: Bob Sherman Ric, Sign me up for two each mouse pads (one for home, one for work). I need another mouse pad like I need another hole in the head. But of course, I do not have a TIGHAR mouse pad. You have my credit card info, so go do it! LTM, Bob ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 10:08:44 EDT From: Nancy Lemon Subject: Re: New Item Ric The thought of losing "our ship N'aia" when we're this close is intolerable! Sign me up for a $100.00 contribution and an Earhart Project mouse pad while you're at it. The 'ol Visa card should be smoking now! ************************************************************ From Ric Yeeeha! Down to $395. We can do this. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 10:16:13 EDT From: Jeff and Barb Norris Subject: Re: So close! Ric We are glad to see the funding progress and will match Tom King's Bosun contribution. It is a pleasure to support two dedicated professionals. The check is in the mail. Jeff and Barb ************************************************************* From Ric What can I say? Thank you. The Reynolds Challenge funding drive is now within $295 of reaching its $8,400 goal. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 10:21:07 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: New Item Ric, I wish I had the cojones to have been the world famous racing driver I've always fantasized about, so I would now have untold millions to devote to my favorite causes, such as TIGHAR. It has bothered me reading your pleas for financial assistance and not being in a position to help (pity the poor working grunt) :{ But an Earhart mouse pad will set the tongues a-waggin' at work, and will perhaps result in new recruits for TIGHAR, so please send one! I think you have my credit card #... if not, let me know. LTM, Tom #2179 ************************************************************** From Ric Rather than a paucity of cojones I would suspect that it was a plethora of smarts that thwarted your racing career. Thanks. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:51:08 EDT From: Michell Blankenship Subject: Challenge met! Put me in for a deckhand. It's not much, but every little bit helps. If you don't have my credit card info, let me know. Michelle Blankenship TIGHAR #2093 ************************************************************* From Ric Thanks Michelle. We do not have your credit card info so please either give us a call at (302) 994-4410 or a fax at (302) 994-7945. Also, Van Hunn 1459CE has signed on as a Bosun so that's brings our shortfall down to $170. *************************************************************** From Tim Smith 1142C Oh, yeah? Well, if Tom King can do it, so can I. Sign me up for another Bosun, too. You have my credit card info (which is getting dangerous). I wish you good hunting on the trip. England is one of my favourite places in the world. Wish I could go, too. Tim Smith, #1142C *************************************************************** From Ric Dueling archaeologists. We're down to 70 bucks. ************************************************************** From Chester Baird I can not put you over the top but with the card information you have sign me up for Mate @ $250.00 US and two mouse pads at $25.00 each for a total of $300.00 US. Chester U. Baird *************************************************************** From Ric But that's exactly what you did. Thank you Chester. We're now over the top. ************************************************************* From Jim Terney 0821 OK-OK-OK Put me down for one of those new spiffy mouse pads and also $100 for the ship trip.. Will forward you a check for $115-in the mail Mon/Tues... LTM Jim Tierney *************************************************************** From Ric This is fantastic. You did it! The forum has met the Reynolds Challenge and we will now be able to send off the boat deposit which will reserve Nai'a for the Niku IIII expedition. As soon as all the checks are in and the deposit has been paid and acknowledged (I'll alert them today that the money has been raised) we'll send out the certificates to everyone who participated. Thank You. The people will find Amelia. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:54:25 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: New Item Yeah - okay, I'm pretty broke at the moment but chalk me up for $100. You have my credit card details. Simon #2120 ************************************************************** From Ric 'Preciate that. We're pretty broke too. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:05:30 EDT From: Monty Bar Subject: S.S. Norwich City I was just wondering if the Norwich City might have been something that Earhart and Noonan might have checked out for possible things left behind that they could have need of. Things like juicy canned goods or something. Would it have been possible you think at least for Fred Noonan to have boarded that ship wreck in search for things they could use. I don't know the condition of the ship in 1937, or how much in the water it was. but, If they thought it might have something aboard that they could use . If swimming was required and the ship was hard to get to. Noonan would of most likely have gone alone. Visiting old wrecks is dangerous especially if you try to go below deck. Just some wild thoughts. Sorry if this has already been covered. MBAR *************************************************************** From Ric Not wild thoughts and it hasn't been covered recently, although I'd suggest that you watch out for the ghost of Amelia who may not appreciate your assumptions about who might be more likely to check out the wreck. Norwich City burned very thoroughly when she went aground. It would not require swimming to get to it at low tide, but a quick look would be enough to see that there would be nothing much of use there. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:19:38 EDT From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Nimitz Holdings Ric, I live in Austin, not far from the museum if there is anything needed. Alan *************************************************************** From Ric That's good. Please coordinate directly with Wiley Rollins (wileyr@281.COM) who is handling our research at the Nimitz Museum. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:27:05 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: England Trip Ric, Are you sure you can get access to material presently residing in England? I have sort of a waking nightmare that they might have already boxed up a lot of the stuff getting it ready to ship!! *************************************************************** From Ric Fear not. They know we're coming, they know what we're after, and they're quaking in their boots (well, not really). ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:36:55 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Noonan Letters As I understand it, your elderly woman was told by someone that if she revealed the FN letters to anybody 'they' would make her life hell. Now, considering that most people on the street wouldn't know who FN was, it doesn't seem to be worth it to the press to be making someone's life hell unless the letters reveled something juicy about AE, or something significant other than FN family trivia. (Or would the media frenzy over AE spill onto everything?) *If* (keep an open mind now... ok, well just listen then...) AE/FN *were* on the fabled "secret government mission", and *if* Fred made telling comments about it in the letters, then the same government men who threatened to kill the Roswell ranchers might indeed make life hell. That would certainly make most people shut up and refuse to discuss things, and refuse to even give reasons why. Well, it doesn't seem so interesting now onscreen as it did at 3:30am when I woke up thinking about it, but there it is! Probably not worth wasting forum time over, but up to you. (PS What the heck happened to Dick Strippel? Decent comments from him today, in a civilized character set...) ************************************************************* From Ric Worth thinking about but my impression was that the "make your life hell" comment was based upon the public (read media) fascination with Amelia Earhart and the pestering that would come about if word got out that she had the letters, regardless of their content. And we are not going to talk about Roswell. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:39:16 EDT From: Mike Cord Subject: Re: Swan crew search Why not contact the American Legion? Maybe they could put something in their monthly Magazine. Some of these guys could very well be Legion members. Just a thought. Mike ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:41:09 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Importance of Noonan Letters In addition, newspaper stories are generally biased by what AE said, and on many occasions, she intentionally misled reporters about things. For example, she told folks in Honolulu that her delay was due to inclement weather down to Howland. In fact, she had to have her propeller bearings overhauled due to their being frozen! My experience is that newspaper articles may have clues to what is really happening, but that is extremely rare, and should be used with extreme caution. Even today. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:46:28 EDT From: Jim Kelly Subject: Support Ric; Sign me up for a crew and a mouse pad. I'm already on the hook for Tom King's lunch in Madison, but keep us posted anyway. LTM Jim Kelly 2085 [check's in the mail...where have I heard that before?] *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Jim. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:00:54 EDT From: Jim W. Subject: Lockheed 10E A while back I recalled and sent some information about Linda Finch's airplane. I have found a couple of articles from our local newspaper describing some of its history. It was flown here on Memorial Day weekend, 1997, by a pilot named Gary Hannah. It had engine trouble and landed at the grass strip used by skydivers. Hannah was reportedly killed while flying in Alaska. The left engine was removed and the plane sat idle here until 1983, then was claimed by a group called "Amelia Air" in possession of a very suspect bill of sale. That group towed the airplane to Amery and apparently took it apart as Linda Finch stated the airplane was in pieces and stored in Amery when she bought it in 1992. What may be worth more than the article are two pictures; one showing a head on frontal shot while being towed, with the left engine removed. The other is from a more recent article showing Finch with the restored airplane in Oakland, CA. If either the article or pictures have any significance to you I would be happy to send photocopies to TIGHAR. Jim W. ************************************************************** From Ric I'm a bit confused about the chronology you describe. When did the forced landing occur? Who provided the very suspect bill of sale? It's none of my business, but the airplane is now being offered for sale. If there is a potential question about the title, that would be nice for a prospective buyer to know. Finch's track record does not inspire great confidence in such matters. Yes, it would be interesting to see the photos. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:10:30 EDT From: Jack J. Subject: Re: My last posting & About Strippel My sincerest apologies for my last posting. I was much to harsh on the fellow forum members. I used exaggeration to drive home the point that the old ladies inherited letters were hers to do whatever she pleased with them. It is most likely, considering her generation, that she feels that private family matters should be kept private. It would also be consistent with her generation for her to have promised her sister that she would keep the letters private. Either way, we have to respect her privacy and her integrity. She could have sold the letters for big bucks to some tabloid if she were not a person of integrity. I know you respect all this, because you refuse to sell your list of subscribers and TIGHAR members. (Bless you for that.) You can post this message, or keep it under your bib. I too should be wearing a bib. If I had one on when I referred to the L-10 as having a 53 foot wingspan, I would not have so much egg all over me. For at least 10 years I have had a three view drawing of the L-10 posted over my modeling bench, and the specifications clearly state the wingspan is 55 feet. I suggest TIGHAR keep in touch with the old lady's nephew and continue to try and impress upon him it's honorable intentions, and the fact that TIGHAR is only interested in facts that would lead to the solving of the mystery. However. tread lightly. If Mr. Stripple considers newspapers a reliable source of "research" for facts, I question his conclusions. They news journalist) generally get the "who," "what," "where,," etc., correct, but beyond that they tend put their own "spin" on things. Newspaper articles should be read with a jaundiced eye to match the yellow color of the "press". (tongue in cheek and a little of that exaggeration I mentioned earlier) Lastly, I promise to keep my angle of attack within the envelope from now on. LTM Jack J. PS I am seriously interested in the White Bird as a modeling project, (relax I mean in the future). Is there enough detail available to do an accurate model of it? Many of the aircraft back then were "one off," and photographers did not have us "mere" modelers in mind when they took their pictures. *************************************************************** From Ric No big deal Jack. We're all friends here. No detailed specs seem to have survived from the Nungesser/Coli PL-8 (aka l'Oiseau Blanc) but we have - from Musee de l'Air - some good scale drawings of the 1928 Hisso-powered version (not sure it was ever built). There are also a number of photos of l'Oiseau Blanc under construction and many of it during its testing. Should be possible to do a good model. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:12:45 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Spell check Hi Gang, Please note the correct spelling of my name. Thanks. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:19:56 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Back to the Gilberts? (background: Dick and I had an off-forum exchange in which he suggested that we read the NYT coverage of the Earhart flight. He was quite sure that the "Gilberts quote" was mentioned there and was going to look it up.) >We have concentrated on the Herald-Tribune coverage of the flight and search >because that is who Earhart and Putnam had their deal with. The HT was too involved to be impartial. ************************************************************** From Ric Interesting point. Earhart was sending back reports exclusively to the Trib, so of course the Trib stories will reflect her own version of events. The NYT, as far as I know, was relying on wire service stories. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:25:57 EDT From: Charlie Sivert Subject: Navigator's bookcase With identification of the Sydney crash plane, does it not follow that the navigator's bookcase is back in the picture as a possible piece of the Earhart aircraft? Charles Sivert Olney, Il #0269E *************************************************************** From Ric Good question Charlie and I wish I could say yes, but the bookcase -originally built for a PBY - exhibits modifications that look exactly like the photos of bookcases in early B-24s. It also has a Phillips head screw on it, which didn't seen wide use in aviation until 1939. All in all, I think we have to stick with our ID of the bookcase as being most likley from an early B-24. Best guess at this point is that it made it's way to Niku from Canton where we know there was at least one B-24 wrecked during the war. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:40:56 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: 1st Swan crewmember report Ric: Located and interviewed the first Swan crewmember today. I will just give the info pretty much as he remembered it without checking for historical accuracy. C.E.A. is now 80 years old and lives in Colorado. He was a coxswain on the Swan and often went ashore when visiting islands. I indicated I was researching the Swan history w/o initially giving the reason why. I asked him to recall as much as possible about the cruise in the Phoenix Is. and these are his recollections. "we were doing a favor for the British and carried a variety of cargo, natives, coconut palms, supplies, even chickens. We delivered quonset huts to Canton Is. We were part of the aviation group. I remember the grounded transport at Canton, President something, I believe. The Swan had a shallow draft as it was a rebuilt minesweeper and could get in closer to the islands. I think I went ashore at Gardner in the whaleboat. We couldnt get all the way in- had to get out and wade over the coral. They wanted to plant more trees there, I believe. About a dozen men went ashore. We went to Funafuti and also to Nikufutau, close to Funafuti. One of our group aviators in a floatplane found Rickenbacker, a Lt. Edy. We used to joke 'Edy found Eddie'. We were p.o.'d to be on the Rickenbacker search because we had been headed to Pearl Harbor for liberty and overhaul. We searched for more than a week. Earlier, July maybe, we went Puka Puka (sp), Danger Island to pick up three marine aviators who had landed there after being adrift for 30 someodd days. I have a picture of them, skin and bones. They were from the Enterprise - ran out of gas somewhere in the Gilberts or Marshalls after she went down. We were 7 days in a typhoon about that time. The C.O. of the Swan after Harper was F.E. Hall. He later went down with the Libscombe Bay in the Phillipines. Say, are you looking for Earhart? (I had not said this) I remember our exec in 42 had been on the Swan in 37 and participated in the search. He told us all about it but I didnt pay much attention, I was young. The exec had already been in 30 years at that time and was ready to retire." {My question: was there anything you recall about Gardner} Response: "no, not that I recall, just delivering supplies and trees". {question: do you remember an aircraft wreckage or a photo of one anywhere in the islands?} "no, I sure dont recall". He added an interesting side note: "before the war, we were down in the Solomons with a Duck (amphibian a/c). We would lift it into the water with a crane and they flew it around taking aerial photographs. {question: why was this?} response: "I dont know, they wouldnt talk about it". Ric. I have an appt. to talk to the second crewmember tomorrow in N.Y. by phone and have a lead on two more. Smooth Sailing Ron 2126 *************************************************************** From Ric You do good work. What he says makes perfect sense, but we still have no idea why Swan called at Gardner on the way to Suva. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:45:15 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Noonan's charts Ric... Is there any chance one could get copies of those charts? I've not seen such charts at all. It would be especially interesting to see a sample of the actual charts of real Master Navigator!! ************************************************************** From Ric I know we took photos and photocopies. I just need to figure out where we filed them. Randy, do you have photocopies of the South Atlantic chart you could copy for Vern? ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:06:31 EDT From: Ann Hindrickhs Subject: membership for Vickie Ric, I assume that we have not heard from Dick Strippel concerning the gift membership. I would like to offer it to Vickie in Indiana at this time. LTM, Ann #2101 ************************************************************** From Ric Congratulations Vickie. If you'll email me with your full name and mailing information we'll get you all official. Thanks Ann. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:05 EDT From: Monty Bar Subject: wreck photo Is it possible that the wreck photo is part of a wreckage of a C47? There were plenty of those flying around in the late 30s and early 40s. MBAR. ************************************************************** From Ric Sure, just find me a DC-3/C-47 with two bladed props. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:24:08 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Swan crew search Am I missing something . . . I thought it would be a fairly straight forward search of U.S. Navy files. I was under the assumption (oh-oh, that word!) this material was relatively easily retrieved from USN BuPers. Do you need a Freedom of Information Act request for each individual, or will a blanket one do? There are all sorts of Navy/military-type organizations out there that could be tapped into for this data, i.e. VFW, American Legion, Veterans of (fill in the blank), etc. I'm sure some TIGHAR member has done dome thing like this before . . . can they offer tips? **************************************************************** From Ric This sort of thing is easy if: 1. You've never done it and you're suggesting that someone else do it. 2. You done it enough to really know what you're doing. I'm in the first category. Ron Dawson is clearly in the second category. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:19:02 EDT From: Monty Bar Subject: wreck photo In the Fort Worth Star Telegram, Sunday paper, Oct 18, 1998 is a interesting picture of Amelia Earhart and fred Noonan Standing infront of the left engine of their Electra. Another navigator, [don't have his name at the moment] standing between them. The view of the engine shows great detail of the prop andparts behind it and inside the ring cowlin. It also shows the outside seam around the ring cowlin. I checked it with the wreck photo engine using my high tec research instrument,ha ha [magnifying glass] and it looks to me like the same engine. Three places inside the cowlin matched that I could see. Nothing dismatched including the seam where the rest of the cowlin separated leaving only the ring cowlin. Really a good picture, Im sure you have it, taken in 1937 showing amelia wearing her leather flight jacket and the difference in height of her and noonan Looks to be about 4 inches. I asked earlier about the c47 but then learned that that plane has triple bladed props.May I ask about the DC2, C45 It has double bladed props.Could this aircrft be the wreck? Thank you. From MBAR ************************************************************** From Ric DC-2 had three-bladed props. C-45 is different from the wreck in its windshield configuration and internal wing structure. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:34:46 EDT From: Tim Subject: Re: Swan crew search I hope I'm not going over plowed ground but............ my father was on a destroyer in WWII in the south pacific. They now have a yearly reunion with about 20 to 30 shipmates attending every year. There is a monthly newspaper called the Tin Can Sailor that has stories and it also lists all the destroyer reunions and guys looking for their shipmates. Maybe there is a Swan reunion too. What kind of ship was it? Might be worth looking into if nobody has yet. Tim ************************************************************** From Ric Swan was seaplane tender/converted minesweeper. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:11:35 EDT From: Tom Van Hare Subject: Photo Question: Firewall? As a new member of this forum, I would like to ask if anyone has examined the right engine firewall and determined if the locations of fuel lines, attach points for the engine, etc., match with a Lockheed 10E. It would seem to me that these would be another signature identification point between this rather intriguing photo and the aircraft type. Also, as I look over the photograph, it appears to me that the pieces could either be rightside up or upsidedown. There may not be a relationship between what looks like the nose section and the wing. Parts of this aircraft are clearly missing, so it would stand to reason that the location and attitude of individual pieces may be in place more by chance than by relationship or design of the aircraft. The primary reason I call attention to this is that the mind is led to conclusions by the relationship/location of the various pieces -- yes, that would be the front of the wing, so this piece there must be the nose. In fact, the apparent nose of the aircraft could actually be on its side and completely deformed, with the post either an optical illusion or some sort of attach point/piece of a spar, etc., for the wing, or for that matter be a rear underside portion of the fuselage. Indeed, I would consider it bizarre if so much of the plane is missing and destroyed that the nose section should be so perfectly aligned and located where it should be. Thomas Van Hare *************************************************************** From Ric The firewall of the missing starboard engine has been the subject of intense scrutiny. It is clearly damaged around its edges but generally resembles the firewall of a Lockheed 10. Of special interest are what might be brackets which once held the oil tank. The brackets visible in the photo are not right for the 7 gallon tank of the 10A or 10B, but then we already know that if this airplane is a Model 10 it has to the big engined version. The standard 10E featured an 8.5 gallon tank, but the mounting brackets in the Wreck Photo don't look right for that either. What they do seem to resemble are the brackets for the special 11 gallon tank (Part No. 45859) offered as an option on the 10E and which were installed on NR16020 (as evidenced in several photos). If we could be sure that we're seeing what we think we're seeing, that could be a very strong indicator that the airplane in the Wreck Photo is the one we'd like for it to be. but the quality of the image is very poor, even after lots of hi-tech massaging, so we can't be sure. As to whether what looks like the nose is the nose, I can only say that it's in the right place to be the nose, and it has a number of distinctive features which match the nose (the bead around the windshield, the centerpost of the windshield, the number of bulkheads visible, the orientation of the skins, etc) and it does not feature anything that doesn't look like the nose. In short, if it looks like a duck... I agree that an aircraft as badly damaged as this one is could have ended up in a random jumble of wreckage. But it is also apparent from the relatively undamaged port engine and prop, that the damage was selective. I don't find it hard at all to believe that the nose section, although detached at its upper surface, remained attached at the heavier (.040) belly skins. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:17:16 EDT From: Jim Tierney Subject: Re: Swan crew search Ric--Regarding Reunions of ships crews... Sea Classics Magazine and Naval History Magazine do list dates for reunions for ships and other groups. Just on the off chance- I will go back thru some issues and see what there is. Us Naval Institute and Naval History magazine both based in Annapolis might be a source of info. Jim Tierney ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:10:59 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: The next challenge I am delighted to report that the Reynolds Challenge funding drive to meet the $8,400 boat deposit for the Niku IIII expedition is oversubscribed by $380 (in other words we have pledges totaling $8,780). This surplus will be applied to the next crisis - the immediate acquisition by TIGHAR of a laptop computer. As most of you know, TIGHAR's office staff is made up entirely of me and my wife Pat Thrasher. Occasionally we'll bring in a temp to help stuff envelopes, do filing and fill orders, but day to day it's me and Pat. I get to do the fun stuff like moderate the forum, direct the research, write TIGHAR Tracks and lead the expeditions. Pat gets stuck with keeping the membership database up to date, doing the editing and layout on the magazine, and explaining to the creditors why the check is late. Everything revolves around the computers and it takes both of us working six and often seven days a week to keep up with it. No complaints. This is our job. However, as the organization has grown and the workload has intensified, it has become absolutely essential that at least some of our computer capability become portable. My upcoming research trip to England had us thinking that we would need to find some way solve that problem in the next month or so, then yesterday Pat was notified of a family emergency that will take her away from the office for a week starting tomorrow. Push had come to shove - big time. It was inconceivable for Pat to be away and de-computered for a week. So - we swallowed hard, whipped out the American Express card, and got a laptop on its way overnight. Of course, the laptop will be an essential part of the NIKU IIII expedition, and it's $3,000 we knew we'd need to spend, but it's also $3,000 we didn't have, and didn't want to spend yet. So now we need to launch a de facto fund raising campaign to get the cost of the laptop covered. The $380 oversubscription of the Reynolds Challenge gives us a head start. Because this, just like the boat deposit, is a vital cost of Niku IIII that has to be paid now instead of later, we'll extend the Reynolds Challenge and add the names of further contributors to the Certificates of Appreciation to be issued. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:58:06 EDT From: Vickie Raney Subject: Re: membership for Vickie Thank you Ann, very much for this opportunity. Vickie Indiana ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:55:05 EDT From: Bill Zorn Subject: Wreck Photo reversed? How certain are you that the photograph in question has been printed right way around? Speaking as an amateur photog/ bw darkroom user, its real easy to reverse the negative while printing. Especially if you are printing someone else's work, no there are no left/right land marks. sometimes you print reversed just cause it look better. Do you have you actual negative? william h zorn ************************************************************** From Ric No we don't and we worried about that possibility, but a close look at the prop shows that it turns the correct way. The print is not reversed. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:04:32 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Research summary Every once in a while it's good to review where we are and what we're doing. Not only does it help bring new forum subscribers up to speed, but all of us need to periodically step back from squinting at the pieces and try to get an overall picture of what our puzzle looks like now. First, let's review some active areas of investigation (pieces being squinted at). The Noonan Project - Because both Dr. Isaac and Dr. Hoodless had, in 1941, declared the bones found on Gardner Island to be male, it appeared that if the bones were associated with the Earhart disappearance they would must be those of Fred Noonan. Hoping that we will eventually either relocate the bones that were examined or find more on the island, we recognized the need to find a source for mitochondrial DNA comparison. Specifically, we need to find a living relative of Fred Noonan in the female line. (For example: his mother's sister's daughter.) To search for such a person we needed to first turn the amalgam of conflicting folklore about Frederick J. Noonan into documented historical fact. A loose association of TIGHAR members (aka The Noonan Project) led by Jerry Hamilton #2128 (jham@ccnet.com), Sandy Campbell #2110 (sjcamp@swbell.net), and Ron Dawson #2126 (Upper 14@aol.com) has successfully documented much of Noonan's background and some of his genealogy. The living relative in the female line still eludes us but research continues. Along the way, we've gotten to know a man whose accomplishments have been little noted and whose character has been grossly misconstrued and misrepresented in the mythology that surrounds the Earhart disappearance. One frustrating but promising aspect of the Noonan Project is being pursued by Don Jordan #2109 (djordan@CYBERLYNK.COM) who is patiently trying to effect the release of letters written by Noonan to his wife during the world flight and now held by his widow's family. The Bones - In 1941, the bones that had been found on Gardner Island and at first suspected as being those of Amelia Earhart, were judged by Dr. Isaac in Tarawa to be those of an elderly Polynesian male and by Dr. Hoodless in Suva to be the remains of a short, stocky, muscular European or "half-caste" male. No further investigation by British authorities is known at this time. Review and reevaluation of the 1941 measurements and analysis by modern-day forensicanthropologists, however, suggests that those judgments were unjustified and incorrect. The measurements, when evaluated with state-of-the-art forensic software (FORDISC 2.0) indicate that the bones were more likely those of a white female of approximately Earhart's height and ethnic extraction. This, of course, makes finding the bones - either the ones that were recovered or the ones still on the island - a priority. In November, a TIGHAR research team made up (so far) of Ric Gillespie, Kenton Spading #1382CE (KSpading@compuserve.com), Kristin Tague #0905CE (BL.KRT@RLG.ORG), and Chris Kennedy 2068 (chrisk@CHEMOIL.COM) will travel to England to attempt to find more official correspondence or records concerning the bones and what may have become of them. Kanawa Point - Identification of the label fragment found in 1997 in the remains of the campfire at the Aukaraime site (where shoe parts were found in 1991) as being of relatively modern origin has raised the possibility, if not probability, that the site is not the same place where bones and shoe parts were found in 1940. A re-examination of the available evidence has led to the formulation of a hypothesis that the site of the 1940 discovery was a small peninsula shown on early maps as Kanawa Point. This location has not been the subject of intensive search by previous TIGHAR expeditions, but is scheduled for close attention during Niku IIII. How shoes which seem very likely to have been Earhart's came to be in different places on the island is one of the more puzzling mysteries within the larger enigma. The task of formulating reasonable hypotheses which can be tested during the Niku IIII expedition is being led by the project's Senior Archaeologist Dr. Tom King #0391CE (TFKing106@aol.com) and TIGHAR's Executive Director Ric Gillespie. The Shielded Cables - Two lengths of shielded cable with connectors which were recovered on the island in 1996, and cataloged as TIGHAR Artifact 2-3-V-1, are the subject of a detailed research effort led by radio historian Michael Everette #2194. The cables are of a prewar type and World War II aviation sources have been largely eliminated, as have British colonial sources. Photos of the cables were recently shown to Coast Guard Loran veterans at a reunion in Kentucky and the report of their reactions should be forthcoming soon. If no alternative explanation for the cables' presence on the island can be found, and if a reasonable use aboard NR16020 can be identified, the artifact may join the dado (Artifact 2-18), the aircraft skin (Artifact 2-2-V-1) and the plexiglas (Artifact 2-3-V-2) as airplane components found on Nikumaroro which may be from the Earhart aircraft. The Wreck Photo - With the elimination of the Tachikawa Ki-54 as a candidate for the aircraft in the photo, the Lockheed Model 10 equipped with the Pratt & Whitney R1340 engine is left as the only known type which features all of the structural elements visible on the wreck. The type of damage exhibited, details of the environment, and even the existence of a photograph, correspond well with anecdotal accounts of aircraft wreckage seen on Nikumaroro which are corroborated by forensic imaging of aerial photos of the island which appear to indicate the presence of metal debris in a specific location. Based upon what we know at this time, this could be a picture of NR16020 on Nikumaroro. Various hypotheses about who took the picture and how it was that the wreck was never linked with the Earhart disappearance are being tested. The possibility that the photo was taken by a crew member of USS Swan during a visit in 1942 is being researched by Ron Dawson #2126. The chance that surviving members of the New Zealand survey party, who were on the island in late 1938 and early 1939, have recollections which may be of help is being checked out by Pam Sedgman in Australia and Lew Bone in New Zealand. Simon Ellwood #2120 in England is helping with further efforts to confirm or deny the identity of the plane in the photo. These areas of investigation, and others (such as the Canton Engine), deserve our continued intense scrutiny, but it is worth noting that over the course of the past 18 months the nature of at least some of our investigation has changed in a fundamental way. Prior to the discovery of the Tarawa File (the official correspondence which describes the finding of bones on Gardner) we were investigating suspected events. We had started with what seemed a logical premise that the Earhart flight may have ended at Nikumaroro and we were looking for evidence to support that hypothesis. We were asking, "Is there anything about this island to indicate that this event may have occurred here?" Now we're asking a very different question. "Were the remarkable objects found on this island what they appear to be?" Put another way, we no longer have to ask, "Did something unusual happen here?" We're now asking, "Is the unusual thing that happened here what we think it was?" From a practical standpoint, on the ground at Nikumaroro, we'll no longer be looking in places we've selected based upon pure speculation for things we've theorized might be there. We'll now be looking in specifically described places for things that we either know for sure were once there (i.e. the rest of the skeleton), or have been told were once there (the aircraft wreckage). We may still have the wrong places, or the things may now be gone, but there's a big difference between looking for something that might be there (prospecting for gold) and looking for something that you know was there once and should still be there (relocating an old gold mine). The Earhart mystery will not be solved until we recover what Tom Crouch (Chairman of the Aeronautics Dept. at NASM) calls "the smoking gun" and what we call "the any-idiot artifact" - a bone that matches Earhart's or Noonan's DNA, an engine or other aircraft component with a serial number, or the whole darn wreck, or maybe all of the above. Until then, for most people, TIGHAR's work will be just one more theory about happened to Amelia Earhart. But the tide has turned and those of us who are standing on the beach can see it. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:20:52 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: The next challenge >This surplus will be applied to the next crisis - the immediate acquisition by >TIGHAR of a laptop computer. Aaaarrrgggghhhh!!!! Ric! Why didn't you say so two weeks ago! My company just had a surplus computer sale. They're dumping all the "archaic" Macs and going to Gateway exclusively (bummer!). They had Mac laptops for $30 (yes, thirty)! In perfect working order! I didn't get one, but if I had known you wanted one, I'd have bought it and donated it. (By the by, I got two Quadra 630s, an RGB monitor, and two keyboards... for $51.00. All work great!) Sure wish you'd said something sooner. Ah well, what's that old saying about runway behind you and altitude above you? Tom #2179 *************************************************************** From Ric Story of my life. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:39:37 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Importance of Noonan Letters Randy wrote: > In fact, she had to have her propeller bearings >overhauled due to their being frozen! Oooh, I hate when that happens... Tom #2179 *************************************************************** From Ric It helps if they're lubed right to begin with. The starboard side prop froze in cruise pitch several hours out of Hawaii and the port side was ready to go by the time they landed. If they had had to "go around" on landing at Wheeler it could have gotten real exciting. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:51:30 EDT From: Ann Hinrichs Subject: membership for Vickie Vickie, Welcome aboard. We're pleased that you've joined us. Ann ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:49:16 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: The next challenge Tom wrote: >Ah well, what's that old saying about runway behind you and altitude >above you? What is that old saying? LTM Russ ************************************************************** From Ric Runway behind you and altitude above you - the most worthless things to a pilot. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:09:08 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Another Swan heard from Following up on a lead provided by Ron Dawson #2126, Joel Dunlap #2183 was successful in contacting former USS Swan crew member Thomas Laura. Mr. Laura returned Joel's call and, without a phone number for Ron handy, Joel did the next best thing and conferenced the call to me. We chatted for about ten minutes. Mr. Laura's service aboard the Swan began on January 2, 1942 and he was on the ship for two and half years. He remembers the visits to Gardner Island in the fall of 1942, but not well. He worked in the engine room did not go ashore. He remembers the big fuss about Rickenbacker being missing but does not associate the Gardner visits with that purpose. He remembers that they brought coconuts to the islanders and remarked about how strange it was for the Swan to loaded down with coconuts ("The darn things were everywhere!") He has no recollection of any talk about airplane wreckage or photographs. He does not specifically remember the first brief evening visit to Gardner enroute to Suva so he couldn't help us come up with an explanation for it. It is, of course, possible that only the officers knew about the plane wreck, but the Swan was small ship and it's hard to believe that the scuttlebutt would not have gotten around. So far, it looks like the Swan is not the mysterious government ship we're looking for. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:55:05 EDT From: Jim W. Subject: L10-E Sorry for the typo in the message about the history of Finch's L10. The year of the forced landing at Wissota Airport was 1977, not 1997. As for the suspect bill of sale it was from the group "Amelia Air" presented to the owner of the private airport, who had claimed possession of the airplane because it had been abandoned. And yes, it certainly seems the title to the plane is cloudy, at least from 1977 - 1992. The copies of the photos and article are being sent to you. Jim W. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:05:24 EDT From: Tom Ruprecht Subject: Runway behind, alt. above &... You forgot the third part, "Gas on the ground." Rupe From Ken Not to mention fuel on the truck! Ken ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:37:48 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Runway behind, alt. above &... And yesterday's weather. ************************************************************* From Ric Okay, so far we have the following things that are of no use to a pilot: Runway behind you Altitude above you Gas on the ground Yesterday's weather *************************************************************** From Gary Moline There's one more thing that a pilot doesn't want to see: "The only time you have too much fuel is when you are on fire!" GARY MOLINE ORLANDO FL. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:01:43 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Wreck Photo reversed? Don't forget, Ric, some foreign radials turn the other direction... *************************************************************** From Ric Thought of that. For example, we considered the Avro Anson. No way. Find me an airplane, any airplane, with props that spin any direction you want, that matches the photo better than a Lockheed 10E. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:03:35 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Runway behind, alt. above &... One last one on the "no use to a pilot" - A non-working DF when you can't find Howland....... LTM Simon ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:39:36 EDT From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Linda Finch I've seen some Linda Finch bashing in a couple of posts - what exactly has she done? LTM, Amanda **************************************************************** From Ric I've never met Linda Finch. I've never so much as spoken to her on the phone. Assuming that a liaison between her World Flight and our Earhart Project would make sense, we attempted early on to establish some kind of contact but were rebuffed. Since then, I have met and spoken with a number of people who did have dealings with her. Anything I know about her is secondhand and I think I'd like to keep that way. That's all I should say. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:50:33 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Swan crew member Contacted Swan crewmember Walter Zamorski today. He was a radio operator on the Swan. He was not able to really add anything significant. He indicated he was not on board very long and left in Dec. of '42 (confirmed by the rolls). The only two things he remembers about the cruise in question was: 1) they grounded close to one of the islands on a reef and had to wait till the tide came in to refloat. My first thought was that this wasn't in the deck logs, but second thought was that the captain might have been reluctant to enter that in a log which would go back to HQ, especially if there was no permanent hull damage. 2) one of the crew got involved with the chief's daughter on one of the islands and came back with a social disease. So much for my brilliant idea that a radio operator might be privy to some "inside" information. Smooth Sailing, Ron 2126 **************************************************************** From Ric Tom Laura mentioned the grounding but thought it had occurred at Johnston Island. He didn't mention anything about a "chief's daughter" much less the consequences of any fraternization. So we're three for three. No recollection of anything about airplane wreckage. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:54:54 EDT From: Monty Bar Subject: Ghost of Amelia From KHAQQ >KHAQQ TO MBAR ,TIGHAR FORUM ,WHATS THIS ABOUT >NOONAN MOST LIKELY TO BE THE ONE TO DO A DIFFICULT TASK >RATHER THAN ME JUST BECAUSE HE IS A MAN?> Well,I uh uh da , Everyone knows that the strength and courage of Amelia is equal to any aviator, man or woman. That poem you wrote, not only wrote it ,but lived it, Also influenced many others, both men and women to dare to fly and live their dream. Still friends I hope ********************************************************* From Ric Who would have thought that Amelia Earhart would be reincarnated as Dick Strippel? ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:58:41 EDT From: Ted Whitmore Subject: The 3rd worthless Runway behind you, altitude above you and THE GAS AS THE HANGAR! AE & FN were dying for some! Best wishes, Ted Whitmore #2169 ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:00:54 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Naval history questions A couple of questions for naval historians: 1. What was the designation for rank for a radioman in the Navy (WWII)? 2. Is it correct that in WWII, all radio traffic in and out of a ship was encrypted and had to be encoded or decoded by the officer in charge of the code book? Therefore the radio operator would not necessarily know the contents? Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:44:35 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Re: Linda Finch Linda Finch has tax and other legal problems. ************************************************************** From Ric uh huh. Think Leona Helmsley in a leather jacket. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:48:07 EDT From: Hugh Graham Subject: Re: Naval history questions Ron Dawson wrote: > Is it correct that in WWII, all radio traffic in and out of a ship was > encrypted and had to be encoded or decoded by the officer in charge of the > code book? Therefore the radio operator would not necessarily know the > contents? Yes. I say this knowing that the U-boats in the North Atlantic were defeated only after the Enigma code was broken at Bletchley. HAG 2201. *************************************************************** From Ric I'd feel better with chapter and verse from U.S. Navy regs. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:55:30 EDT From: J. Tweedle Subject: Re: Runway behind, alt. above &.. Charts in the car. *********************************************************** From Ric I like it. Been there. Done that. So far we have the following things that are worthless to a pilot: Runway behind you Altitude above you Gas on the ground Yesterday's weather Charts in the car ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:54:50 EDT From: Fred Madio Subject: Wreck Photo camera Concerning the Wreck Photo, I have one [very minor] thought that may or may not be of any use to Ron Dawson, Pam Sedgman, and Simon Ellwood as they continue their investigations. When I looked at your copy of the photo during the conference in Wilmington, Delaware last year I particularly noticed the random vertical lines running from top to bottom through the entire length of the photograph. These lines are not apparent on the copy of the photo that has been mounted on the web site. So what? The importance (implication?) -- if any -- is that the picture might have been taken with a 2.25" X 2.25" square format twin lens reflex camera. In such cameras, the film is transported from top to bottom (occasionally from bottom to top). From personal experience with such cameras, I know that if any dirt, debris, etc gets in the camera it almost always makes its presence known by streaking the film in exactly the same way that it appears in the subject photo. The square format of the wreck photo, and the "belly-button" perspective as indicated by the composition of the shot -- the subject (the aircraft) is set relatively low with lots of tree tops and sky showing -- also supports this opinion along with the "guesstimate" that the negative was printed full-frame (i.e: not cropped from a larger format) and not enlarged too much because the grain structure did not appear too large. The somewhat blurry appearance of the photo could be explained by bad focusing of either the camera, or the enlarger used to make the print. In principal at least this picture could also be one frame printed from a section of 8 mm. or 16 mm. movie film. Either size film would have approximately the same square format and possibly the same vertical marks. But two thing would likely be different: (a.) the grain size of the print would be a lot bigger because of the amount of enlargement necessary to a make a print of the size that exists, and (b.) the perspective would probably be somewhat different with the aircraft appearing more centered top-to-bottom in the photo and less sky and tree tops showing. Again, so what? I'm not really too sure myself, but if any of this sounds plausible it might help Dawson, Sedgman, and Ellwood rule out any potential leads that did not at the time have access to such a camera. Regards, Fred Madio ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Fred. This could be a very important clue. You make a good case for the photo having been taken "with a 2.25" X 2.25" square format twin lens reflex camera." Okay: - When were such cameras first developed? - When did they become commonly available? - Were they more common in the U.S. than in, say, Britain? - Where they ever standard issue to military or naval photographers? - Did they use a special film? If so, when did that film stop being commonly available? - By the way, what does such a camera look like? The answers to these questions and others like them could give us important information about who took the photo and when. Surely we have some photography historians on the forum. How 'bout it gang? Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:07:27 EDT From: sactodave Subject: Re: Naval history questions That is a possibility. There are codes available for all qualified radio operators, in case OOD requires decoding prior to delivery. **************************************************** From Ric It seems reasonable to think that coded messages could be sent and only the officers be aware of the content. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:21:07 EDT From: Jack J. Subject: Re: Ms. Finch, what has she done? One of the forum has raised the question about Ms. Finch's trespasses. I can't speak for the others on this forum but I can speak for myself. What has Ms. Finch done? Nothing! This is precisely the point. She has the unmitigated gall to say that finding out what happened to AE, and that what AE accomplished is irrelevant when she was interviewed by the Discovery people. AE hold numerous "firsts" in the records of aviation. Ms. Finch, zero. Obviously Ms. Finch has no sense of history. AE has been missing for more than 60 years and yet every school child in the US knows who she is. I venture to say that, six days after Ms Finch landed not one school child knew who she was. Ms. Finch is a legend in her own mind. If AE is irrelevant, then why did Ms. Finch try to duplicate AE's flight? This is especially interesting considering the fact that Ann Pelligreeno did the same thing, that is fly around the world in an L-10, ten years earlier. Ms. Pelligreeno at least threw a wreath onto Howland Island in AE's memory. In short, Ms. Finch is a narcissist with no respect. The only reason she got any publicity at all was because of the association with AE. Again, what has she done? NOTHING! LTM Jack J. *************************************************************** From Ric Oh, I wouldn't say that. If nothing else she has succeeded in pissing off a whole bunch of people. I wouldn't worry too much about Ms. Finch. She has bigger problems than the hollowness of her achievements. At this point she'll be doing well to avoid doing time. If not, maybe they'll let her serve her time in the Amelia Earhart cell in Garapan Prison on Saipan. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:34:40 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Runway behind, alt. above &.. Stuck mic. switch when you're flying with the girlfriend (yes it's happened to me) LTM Simon ************************************************************* From Ric Especially if your wife is an air traffic controller. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:39:09 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera Very interesting - thanks Fred. I'd assumed that the one prominent vertical line visible (just cutting through the left side of the nose as we look at it) was just a crease made through neglect of the photo print - you often see the old sepia type prints with cardboard backing creased like this. That word "assumed" again. Now that I look closely, Fred's right - there are many vertical lines indicating perhaps a vertical movement of the film/negative. Though I'm no photography expert, the shot does seem to be a little "wider angle" than most you see from standard cameras - and the aspect (being taller than wide) lends credence. Ric - you don't have the original print, but a copy - don't you ? LTM Simon ************************************************************** From Ric That's right. Probably a copy of a copy. No indication of cropping though. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:42:49 EDT From: Perry Ellington Subject: Re: Runway behind, alt. above &.. how about the following? CoPilot visiting the head (always when you need them) Perry Ellington *************************************************************** From Ric Yup. They have - like - this sixth sense.... ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:05:13 EDT From: Dave Eberle Subject: Re: The next challenge Hi Ric! As a fairly long time member (and silent forum observer) I'm responding to your computer needs with a check for $250 in the mail. (You don't have my credit card on file by design, I'm such a soft touch It'd be "maxed" out) Dave Eberle #0921 *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks for leading the way on this Dave. We'll add your name to the Reynolds Challenge certificate as a Mate. That leaves us with $2,750 to raise before the bill comes due. Once that goal has been reached we'll close out the Reynolds Challenge and issue the certificates. Again, the categories are: Commodore - $1,000 Captain - $500 Mate - $250 Bosun -$100 Crew - $50 Deckhand - $25 ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:52:15 EDT From: unknown Subject: Re: Naval history questions Since the discussion has touched on codes and coding questions, I'll put in a bit of information here, though I cannot see how it would affect the discussion.... First off, although I used to work in Naval communications security (COMSEC) during the mid-1980s, I am not familiar with USN or USCG procedures during the war years. (Just a thought, but the ship in question may not have been a USN one, but rather a USCG vessel.) In regards to the question on whether EVERYTHING would have been put into code during wartime, I can only see that this would have been true while on deployment. It is logical that messages regarding locations, specific events, identification, etc., would have been put into code. Today, it is worth noting that not all communications are coded. Also, with regard to the operator not knowing the content of messages, I would like to point out that with current and past encryption systems, it seems quite unlikely -- these individuals have very high security clearances and these are not simple codes. The COMSEC gear involves keys and an automated system that takes a degree of skill of to operate. In the laymen's mind, you look up a set of letters and these correspond to other letters or groups of letters. However, the systems are considerably more complex than this, with rather strong matrix-based mathematical equations determining five letter code groups. Even if you write the same word twice in a row, it will appear as a completely different set of characters in the coded message. The only other related point (though probably of no use) would be that there are a range of messages that involve just a single word or a single phrase which corresponds to a file held in a locked cabinet. In these cases, the operator would know the content of the message -- for instance, TO: COMSUBLANT / SUBJ: Peregrine / BODY: Peregrine. This would correspond, as before mentioned, to a file, entitled, "Peregrine", that in turn would contain a long order(or series of orders) to be executed based on an existing plan. I do not know when these procedures would have been put into effect, but I do remember single code word communications in my COMSEC history readings and that this practice is in common use worldwide (think of the Japanese code words: TORA TORA TORA, for instance). Returning to the Earhart issue, it is quite unlikely that a planned keyword file ("Peregrine", in my previous example) would have existed for the event of finding her plane (unless there really was a conspiracy), so the message would have been transmitted as usual, coded or uncoded. All of this would mean that if you can find the ship and radio operator (assuming a message was sent), then radio operator, among others, is your target for an interview.... ************************************************************* From Ric The Swan was a U.S. Navy vessel. How WWII procedures aboard a small and ancient seaplane tender compare with COMSEC procedures in the 1980s is not a question I can answer. We really don't suspect hat swan was looking for Earhart in 1942. She had already done that 1937. We did, however, wonder if she had been sent to Gardner Island to investigate reports of airplane wreckage there and to find out if it might be Eddie Rickenbacker's B-17 which was missing at the time. Having now interviewed three former-crew members of the Swan, it does not look like that was part of their mission. Incidentally, TORA TORA TORA is a myth. The Japanese attack force had only code transmission capability back to the fleet. Two signals, each comprised of a single Japanese character repeated three times, were to be sent. The character TO (sent three times, so TO-TO-TO) would signify that surprise had been achieved. The character RA (so RA-RA-RA) was sent a few minutes later to signify that they were beginning the attack. By coincidence, TORA means tiger in Japanese. But the word was never sent or used as a codeword in the context of the Pearl Harbor attack. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:27:29 EDT From: Ken Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera Actually, those cameras were pretty common in the late 40's and through the 50's. My father and grandfather both had them. The ones they had were made by Kodak and used 620 film. That size film is rather hard to find today. Other cameras I know of that use similar format are some Yashica twin lens reflexes, and also some made by Mamiya. They used 120 film, as did the more expensive Rolliflex and Hasselblads. Ken *************************************************************** From DaveBush 2200 Ric: I had a Yashica "D" twin lens reflex camera in that type of format when I was a teenager - 1960's and was into photography, still am, but not as much. This was a very common camera for a lot of years, produced in a lot of different countries. I can't give you all of the different manufacturers or dates that you are looking for, but the cameras are still wide spread. I believe everyone from Hasselblad to Kodak made/makes them. They are a real good quality camera, best used for portrait and studio work, but very versatile. A better photography buff than I am would probably know the specifics needed, but truthfully, I don't think that info is going to be specific enough to narrow down any particulars on the origin of the photo. An analysis of the photo might help, but you would really need the original negative to do more than make educated guesses. Love To Mother, Dave Bush #2200 ************************************************************** From Tom King 0391CE For what it's worth, I did some of my earliest archeo-photography with a 2.25" X 2.25" square format twin lens reflex camera in the late 1950s; it took very ordinary 110 film. As far as I know, they're still available. I remember how hard it was to take "belly button" shots of holes in the ground. Tom King *************************************************************** From George Kastner 0862C I know absolutely nothing about photography, but about an hour before the very interesting speculations from Fred Madio about the Wreck Photo camera arrived, I was monologued by an retired US Army photographer. Strictly anecdotal, of course, but maybe it can lead in a useful direction. I asked him later, and can supply his phone # if desired. He trained in 1947 and was soon sent to C Co. of the 71st Signal Bn, assigned to MacArthur at his GHQ in Japan. He wants to give the impression that he can remember every shot he ever took, light meter readings included. He says that in the Army they were trained on and then issued WWII-era equipment. (Makes sense.) No twin lens reflex cameras were ever issued with the photographer's kit. As he remembers, the only 2.25''x2.25 camera in use in the 1930s and 40s was a great German Roliflex, though it was uncommon outside of Europe. Still, it was highly desirable and he finally got one in 1948 or so--set him back $150. He never knew of any Asian camera of that specification. His opinion--definitely not military issue, though any good photographer tried to get one and he himself used one while in the military in the late 1940s. George Kastner ************************************************************* From Ric Although we have some disagreement about just what kind of film they used, it's apparent that the type of camera we suspect was used to take the Wreck Photo was in common use during the period when the photo is alleged to have been taken (circa 1948). The information we have so far would also seem to suggest that the individual who took the photo was not a military or naval photographer using issued equipment. The poor quality of the photo supports the notion that this is an amateur photo taken with a common tourist-type camera. That doesn't mean that the photographer was not in the some kind of armed service, but it does indicate that this was a casual snapshot. This speculative scenario fits the story about the guys who, during the Sandstone nuclear tests, took a sightseeing boat ride and found a wrecked airplane in the bushes that they thought might be Earhart's. It doesn't fit as well with our speculations about the Swan. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:29:28 EDT From: Dave Subject: Re: Naval history questions We maintained secret codes for mode-4/IFF/TrueTrack/and Voice/ Callsign lists. We were given full access to said codes. In fact, we were required to inventory them prior to shift change. In TACCOM, B-52 Navigator Kits were inventoried by the returning navigator, and verified by signature of both the crewmember, and flight operations dispatcher. (My specialty) It may have been a possibility that, prior to WWII, Naval communications were encrypted for transmission, and decoded by recipients. I'm sure though, that radio operators had access to the code. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:37:22 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: Runway behind, alt. above &.. Don't forget: Antenna wire on the spool. Gene Dangelo 2211 **************************************************************** From Jack I can't resist this one. Stuck mic. while being initiated into the "mile high" club? I'll leave the explanation of the "mile high" club to the forum up to you Ric.!!! The following radio traffic is as best I remember it. Tower: Cessna niner-five-seven sierra are you prepared for takeoff? Cessna: 957 Roger tower, give the word and I'll fly like a bird. Tower: Roger, 957 you have my consent to leave the cement. Evidently someone who heard this radio traffic wrote to Readers Digest. I never saw it, but someone told me that the story appeared in the "Laughter in These United States" section of the digest. Lastly, given Ms. Finch's attitude I don't doubt that she got herself into a bit of a sticky wicket. Maybe being an AE impersonator will get her off the hook. Oh, I forgot, AE is not relevant! LTM Jack J. Straight and level this time. Add this one to the list. Having outdated maps for a check-ride. FAA examiners have no sense of humor ************************************************************** From Roger Kelley 2112 There is ONLY one rule for any aviator : "Take off is optional, landing is mandatory !" Roger Kelley, 2112 *************************************************************** From Ric Okay boys, I think we've beaten this one to death. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:53:00 EDT From: unknown Subject: wreck photo Ric, I missed something along the way. Where did you find the wreck photo? *************************************************************** From Ric Short version of a long story: Sometime circa 1980 an Earhart author named George Carrington approached Lockheed Corp. with a photo he said was given to him by one Ray Elliot (spelling not certain), a former British seaman now living in Vancouver, B.C. Supposedly the former-seaman had noticed the resemblance of Earhart's aircraft on the cover of Carrington's book to a photo he had taken in the late 1940s while serving aboard the submarine tender HMS Adamant. He said the photo had been taken on an uninhabited island where a group of sailors had been put ashore to collect sand for fighting engine room fires, but he couldn't remember the name of the island. Lockheed looked at the photo and agreed that it seemed to be a Model 10 but that's about all they could say. The Smithsonian got into the act and, with the help of the Fleet Air Arm Museum in England, learned that no Ray Elliot (or similar name) had served aboard HMS Adamant. Also, Adamant's logs showed that she was tied to a dock in Hong Kong at the time the photo was supposedly taken. Carrington, for his part, was not cooperative and no direct contact was made with the alleged photographer. We got the photo from the Smithsonian. All we know is that the story that goes with it doesn't check out. The photo stands on its own and must be considered to be of unknown origin. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:10:18 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera Ric - I haven't heard this story, what are the details ? This isn't the same story as the seamen on the British tender Adamant (discredited by logs and crew records) is it ? Also, I seem to remember reading that you'd managed to date reasonably accurately the photo by analysing the paper on which it was printed. I think you managed to narrow it down to one of two periods - can you just refresh my memory? Was this dating done on the copy you have, or did you at one time have access to the original ? Thanks Simon #2120 ************************************************************** From Ric No, this isn't the HMS Adamant story. In a nutshell: Our informant is working in a USAF Officer's Club on Kwajeleine in the Marshall Islands during the nuclear tests in the late 1940s. A bunch of guys come into the club all excited. They've just come back from a trip to an outlying atoll where they came upon a wrecked airplane in the bushes which they think might be Amelia Earhart's lost plane. That's about it. Our informant can't remember any names or the name of the ship they were on, much less the name of the island they visited. It was his impression that it was only a day trip and had to be an atoll there in the Marshalls. Not much to go on. We've never contemplated trying to date the paper the print is on. It's a copy, probably a copy of a copy. The paper our copy of the print is on probably dates from the late 1980s when it was made for us. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 08:33:35 EST From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera George Kastner's observation that the camera was "uncommon outside of Europe" might also lend credence to the original Carrington story of the photographer being a Brit. Just a thought - I'll bet HMS ADAMANT was not the only seaplane tender in the Royal Navy during 1948. Where were the others at that time? Did any of them operate in the Phoenix Islands? Might there be another ship was a similar name? A long shot, to be sure, but maybe someone on the forum has an easy reference to RN ships. LTM Russ ************************************************************** From Ric As I understand it, the key here is the negative size - 2.25''x2.25". Apparently, in the 1930s and 40s that meant a German Roliflex "uncommon outside of Europe". But from the late 40s onward, that size negative was common in twin lens reflex cameras widely available in the U.S. and elsewhere, but was not used by the military. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 08:35:12 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Runway behind, alt. above &.. The only thing I can add is that it is always better to be on the ground, wishing you were flying, than flying and wishing you were on the ground... ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:01:01 EST From: Dave Bush Subject: Niku Expedition Ric: I had the following thoughts about how to find wreckage in the underbrush on Niku: Infra-red equipment is the best bet for finding metallic objects in the underbrush. An inflatable weather balloon or advertising dirigible would probably be the best platform to carry IR equipment aloft. I have seen a dirigible with electric motors with remote control capabilities that carried a camera -- it was used indoors, so I don't know if it could handle the winds on a Pacific island. Probably a tethered balloon would be best. Attached to a four wheeler ATV it could be moved along the beach front to scan the underbrush in a specific area. Also, do we know what jewelry/watches that AE & FN were wearing? I have wondered why those would not have been found with the skeletons, but then again, if the crabs moved the bones, they might have moved other things. In the written reports by the British officials was there any mention of clothing other than the shoes? Buttons, belt buckles or other items? If the islanders had found the artifacts, might they have kept them? Love to Mother, Dave Bush #2200 *************************************************************** From Ric Looking for metal hidden in heavy vegetation from the air using IR. Ever done it yourself? Maybe you know something I don't. Back in about 1987 we were trying to find airpalne wreckage in the Maine woods and reasoned that IR might be a good way to do it. The thought was that metal will heat up and cool down at a different rate than the surrounding veggies. We were fortunate to have the use of an Aerospatiale Twin Star helicopter equipped with the latest (at that time) Forward Looking Infra Red FLIR) technology. We ran some tests using sheets of metal placed in the open and masked behind bushes. Results: Metal in the open showed up just fine. So did moose. But metal masked by any vegetation could not be seen. We also tried to use tethered balloons, not to carry technology, but just to mark the boundaries of the search area for the helicopter. Disaster. The wind blew them into trees and busted them within two minutes. The methodology we plan to use on Niku IIII will be to fly low and slow over the suspect area with our ultralight aircraft and see if we can see anything with the Mark I eyeball. The only really reliable way to search, however, is with a hand-held metal detector preceded by someone with a big bush knife or chainsaw. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:06:02 EST From: Dusty Subject: Linda Finch I do not belong to the Linda Finch fan club or anything but... from what I recall of her interviews she did not say she was not interested in Amelia - but simply she was not interested in dealing with how she disappeared. The reason being that her reason for making the flight was not to deal with Amelia's disappearance or death, but to celebrate Amelia's life and her achievements - not to dwell on the mystery but to affirm and emulate Amelia's accomplishments and great feats. That is how I interpreted what Linda Finch said was her main goal for doing the flight. LTM - Dusty ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:10:08 EST From: Mike Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera For what it's worth, my mother used a bog-standard Kodak box camera for many years. It used a two-and-a-quarter-inch square format film, 120, I think it was. It was not a fancy thing like the Yashica 'D' or 'C' etc., it was a simple tin box about 5 inches long, 3 inches wide, and about 5 inches deep. When it's (very) simple shutter clicked, you could hear it on the other side of the street! The quality of its 'photos was a bit dubious, it had no focus mechanism at all. This I can vouch for, because I am having great difficulty scanning some of those old pics for my family research purposes. I can't remember when she got hold of the thing, but am pretty sure they had been in production early post-war. Cheers Mike ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:37:42 EST From: Jim Tweedle Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera The 120 ; 620 film "sizes" both had the same physical frame size; I believe that the difference was in the spool. But, it was a rectangular, not square, format and may have been 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 inches. This format was used by the military prior to the 1960's and in common use prior to the 1950's. ... Jim ************************************************************* From Ric If that is indeed the case, then we can eliminate 120 and 620 film and cameras that used them, because the image in the wreck photo is truly square. Where does that leave us? ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:52:34 EST From: Mark Turner Subject: 2.25" format camera My Father was in the U. S. Army Airforce from 1941 to 1945, and took many pictures with a "CiroFlex" twin lens reflex camera of 2.25" x 2.25" format. It was made in the US (Detroit Mich) prior to his enlistment in 1941, and was his personal camera. I have several photos of him in uniform with the camera, so I know he had it all during the war years. It uses 120 film which is still available, though somewhat difficult to find, and takes an excellent picture with an 85mm, f3.5 Wolensack lens (approximately "normal" for this film format). These cameras were very popular in the forties and into the fifties. I don't know if they were ever official issue to military photographers, but I have seen photos of WWII journalists with similar cameras as "extras". 4 x 5 inch format "press" cameras were more typical for official photography during that time, as the larger format gave better quality and reproducibility with the slower film speeds available in that era. The 120 format film was convenient for personal snap-shots as compared to the special requirements for the handling of 4 x 5 inch sheet film and holders. I currently have the lens off of the camera in order to use it on a Graflex View camera, but could put it back on the CiroFlex if you want some JPEG's of it. Mark Turner #2137 (MLTurner1@aol.com) *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Mark. At your convenience, a photo of the CiroFlex would be handy to have. Well, we have a little discrepancy of opinion. Jim says that the 120 film is not a truly square format. You say it is. This should not be hard to document. Here's a question. The Wreck Photo, according to the original story, was taken by a British sailor. Now a sailor can buy a camera anywhere, but were these square format cameras also popular in England or was it more an American thing? ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:03:53 EST From: Ken Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera The format of the 120/620 film could be square OR rectangular. The difference was in the camera itself. If the square format (2 1/4" X 2 1/4") was used, you got 12 exposures. If the rectangular format was used, you got 8 per roll. The difference between 120 and 620 was in the spool. The 120 had a larger hole for mounting in the camera. 120 film was even used in the OLD box cameras common to the 20's - 40's. Ken ************************************************************** From Ric Ahh. Mystery solved. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:15:23 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: wreck photo RE: Ray Elliott/wreck photo While the British admiralty had no record of a Ray Elliott serving on the H.M.S. Adamant, does it have any record of any Ray Elliott? Perhaps Mr. Elliott served on a variety of ships and simply made a mistake identifying the H.M.S. Adamant. Also, what other sub tenders did the Brits have during the 1935-50 (?) era? I ask this because being as Mr. Elliott claimed to be on a sub tender when the photo was taken perhaps he was rated in a specialty related primarily to subs, i.e. torpedo technician, periscope repair (whatever!) etc. With that rating he may have served on a different tender and simply screwed up in telling Carrington which ship he was on at that time. I know it is a BIG job, but how long would it take to search the Admiralty files for "Ray Elliott" (and variations) that served from 1935-1950(?). I know, Ray Elliott is a fairly common name and you could end up with scatity-eight hundred, but it might be worth a try. Is Carrington still alive? Does he talk to TIGHAR? ************************************************************** From Ric Whew! That would sure be the long way 'round, with no guarantee that we even have the name right. Carrington is still alive but he will absolutely not talk to TIGHAR. I've spoken with him on the phone once. For most of the conversation he refused to admit that he was who he was and he insisted upon referring to me in the third person. Another researcher who called him once got no answer but then immediately got a call back (apparently via caller ID) and a demand "What are you doing calling me?" And you thought Strippel was bad. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:45:48 EST From: Paul Chattey Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera Um, no. The width (height) of the negative is established by the width of the film (you can't go beyond 2-1/4" if your film is only that wide). The length of the negative, however, is set by the camera's optics and mechanical construction. Hasselblad cameras still use 120 film to create 2-1/4" x 2-1/4" negatives and 2-1/4" wide negatives by 1-1/2" (you change the film holder to get different sizes). It is possible that older cameras might have been able to make 2-1/4" wide negatives by 3-1/4", I don't know. Early film was awfully grainy, by comparison to today's film, so a larger negative meant better resolution. My grandfather's pocket camera was a single-lens reflex of the "belly button" style. Very new at the time, it used the modern roll film instead of sheet film. To use it you opened the front and extended a large bellows far enough along a track to move the lens far enough away from the film to bring the image into focus. I no longer remember but the negative was about 3-1/2" x 5-1/2". So, the width of the negative determined the width of the image. Optically, the lens provided a circular focused image slightly large than 5" in diameter through which the film was passed, creating a negative with each shot. The designers could have used a film 5" wide and of any length to create a 5"-wide negative but the results are a very bulky "pocket" camera. Since the TIGHAR print is probably a copy of a copy, I wonder how we know that it originally had a square format and wasn't cropped square? There is some form of computer analysis that will tell you how far the camera was from the object, I wonder if there is a way to tell if a print has been cropped? Or have you already been down this path? Or, finally, does it matter since you can get square or rectangular formats from any film. Mother's ping pong balls were all square. *************************************************************** From Ric The print we originally had (probably a copy of a copy) was printed on an 8x10 sheet but was square, leading me to think that it was probably the entire image. No way to know for sure though. We're admittedly grasping at straws trying to find something distinctive enough to point us in a productive direction, but it doesn't look like there is anything unusual about the camera that took the photo. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:46:53 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: The Riddle of the Shoes Okay, here's a game everybody can play. We've got ourselves a mystery within our larger mystery. We have clues that tell a story, but what story do they tell? Here's the problem: In 1991 we found shoe parts at what we call the Aukaraime site near the lagoon shore on the southern coast of Nikumaroro. Specifically, we found: - A replacement shoe heel (Cat's Paw Rubber Co., USA) - A fragmented rubber shoe sole with nail holes that fit the Cat's Paw heel - A few fragments of what may be heat-damaged leather - A brass grommet which appears to be a shoelace eyelet All of this material was found scattered on the surface of the ground (except for the brass eyelet which was found by screening the first inch or so of dirt) in the immediate vicinity of the remains of a small campfire which was found in 1997 a few inches below the ground surface. The ash and charcoal of the fire yielded a partially burned fragment of a can label which has been dated to the 1970s or later. About 25 feet away from the shoe remains and fire was another shoe heel of a different type (apparently an original rather than a replacement heel), and probably from a different pair of shoes. Nothing else was found near this heel. Expert analysis indicates that the shoe represented by the remains found near the campfire, was of the same style and size as those worn by Earhart on her final flight. When we first learned that a British official in 1940, Gerald Gallagher, had also found the remains of a "woman's stoutish walking shoe" and a campfire at a site where he recovered a partial skeleton, we assumed that we had found the same spot. However, the dating of the label fragment prompted a re-evaluation which leads us now to suspect that the 1940 discoveries occurred on a lagoon peninsula called Kanawa Point about a mile west of the site where we found shoe parts. So here's the mystery. Assuming that we found one of Earhart's shoes and that Gallagher also found one of Earhart's shoes, why were they a mile apart? It's possible that the odd distribution of shoes on this island is an important clue to what happened there and if we can develop a reasonable hypothesis that explains how what got where it may tell us where to look for more stuff when we go back. A couple of observations: It's not terribly surprising that it should be shoes that are the issue here. Nikumaroro is a very reductive environment. That place rots cloth, rusts steel, and literally chews up organic material at an amazing rate. The hard rubber parts of shoes are the most durable things a person would normally have on them. Something like a shoe can travel a considerable distance by bioturbation (a 50 cent word meaning animals moved it) but the curious thing here is that the presence of a second heel at the Aukaraime site makes it far less likely that a bird or a crab is responsible for the separation of the artifacts. Something else worth considering is what was NOT found despite concerted searching in the respective locations as reported by Gallagher and as done by TIGHAR. Let's start with assumption that Earhart had with her the two pair of shoes we can see in the various photos taken during the world flight. One pair were blucher-oxfords with brass shoelace eyelets and what look to be recently replaced heels. These are the shoes she is wearing in all the photos of her getting into and out of the airplane. Apparently these are her flying shoes. She also had a pair of two-toned saddle shoes which she seems to wear when she is sightseeing. The heels and soles of these are light colored and appear to have been made of something other than leather. Fred always wears plain old men's dress shoes. Can't tell if it's more than one pair but let's assume he has a spare pair of shoes with him. That's a total of six shoes on the island. We have accounted for: - one of AE's blucher-oxfords at Aukaraime - one of Fred's shoes at Aukaraime (it can't be AE's other the blucher-oxford because it's not a replacement heel and it can't be one of her saddle shoes because the heel is black rubber.) - one of AE's shoes, either the other blucher-oxford or one of the saddle shoes, at the bone site (Kanawa Point?). That's three shoes. What happened to the other three? Let's say that Fred and AE didn't have a chance to salvage any spare shoes from the plane but had to go with what they were wearing. That means Gallagher found one of the blucher-oxfords and we found the other one a mile away near one of Fred's shoes. We're still short a shoe. Theories anyone? Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:08:08 EST From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: The Riddle of the Shoes Ric wrote: > Let's start with assumption that Earhart had with her the two pair of shoes we > can see in the various photos taken during the world flight. Fred always > wears plain old men's dress shoes. Can't tell if it's more than one pair but > let's assume he has a spare pair of shoes with him. That's a total of six > shoes on the island. Sorry to throw a level bucket of water on your reasoning here, but doesn't that make eight shoes on the island? Two feet, two pair of shoes, two people (2 X 2 X 2 = 8). LTM Russ ************************************************************** From Ric Ahem... uh...very good...that was a test. (godammit) ************************************************************* From Dave Bush 2200 Ric: Tons of theory - #1 Let's say that AE injured one foot, so she couldn't wear the shoe, so she dropped it where it was or stored it with other materials, then tried to make it to the other side of the island with the foot bandaged. #2 Maybe in the soft sand, she felt comfortable and took off both shoes - they may have been wet and we know how hard leather can be after it dries. One shoe accidentally falls out of her bag or jacket or whatever she is carrying it in, then later, she notices that it is missing and decides the mate isn't worth carrying around, so she drops it. #3 Delirious from thirst, heat exhaustion, etc. she looses one shoe off her foot, wanders about aimlessly, looses the second or dies at the second location and the shoe is found. Somewhere in all this, FN may be helping support her so she doesn't have to walk on the shoeless and injured foot. Then, again, they could have been playing one of those games where everyone takes off their shoes and throws them in a pile and have a race to get them back on and hers could have ended up on the wrong feet (just kidding). #4 An islander may have found the one shoe and thought he/she would use the leather for someother project then later gave up the idea and dropped it or found something more interesting, etc. I really think you will have to treat the different types of shoes separately for explanations, as AE/FN may have split up to explore the island. Their conditions may have been different - ie. one or the other or even both could have sustained injuries in the landing or the egress from the plane or sometime after landing from any number of sources. I think a hypothesis is important, but you will have to deal with many possibilities - I suggest a matrix of possibilities for AE separate from FN and one that includes both together. But truthfully, I'm not sure that a valid hypothesis can be formed given the time over which these events occured. With weather and animal action, the disparity in time and location can not really be correlated with any degree of accuracy, and yet any given hypothesis could be dead on. It's like the guy who wanders around aimlessly for several days, comes back where he started and dies. When he is found, they assume he never left the spot! In rescuing children lost in the forest, it has been found that the searchers have walked right past the children who remained still and quiet, for fear of the searcher, then continued on their way and wound up miles away where they were later found by other searchers. Anomolies of all sorts can occur, making this a difficult if not impossible thing to solve. Love To Mother, Dave Bush #2200 *************************************************************** From Ric You're right - this is a tough one. That's what makes it so much fun. The thing to always remember is that we CAN figure it out. It's hard, and we're wrong way more often than we're right, and it's esay to get discouraged, until we look back and realize how far we've come. Your four theories all work well for a single shoe in random place, but that is not the situation. The Bone Site (Kanawa Point?) is clearly a campsite and there is no real mystery about how a woman's shoe ended up with a woman's bones. What is odd about the Bone site is that there is at least one shoe missing. That's not too tough given a decaying corpse and marauding coconut crabs that could make off with a nice tasty foot in a leather wrapper. Indeed, most of the skeleton was missing and presumed carried off by the crabs. So let's say that the Bone Site, as described by Gallagher, presents a reasonable picture. The Aukaraime site is the puzzler. If we had just found the one shoe there it would not be hard to construct a scenario (as you have done). But there was a second shoe there, as evidenced by a black rubber heel, and it almost had to be Noonan's. (It shouldn't be AE's other blucher-oxford because it didn't have a replacement heel, and AE's other pair of shoes had light-colored heels and soles.) It strains credibility to think that both AE and Noonan would each abandon just one shoe in the same location. *************************************************************** From Dennis McGee 0149 First, if AE and FN each had a second pair of shoes, you need to account for EIGHT shoes, not six as in your theory of 10/26 12:47 p.m. Second, with the wide dispersal between the Aukaraime site (site "A") and the Gallagher site (Kanawa Point, site "K") one could assume AE and FN had -- for their own reasons -- two sites. Long story short: They both survive for a couple of days at site A where FN dies. AE decides to try a different site that may provide better sight lines for searching aircraft and moves to site K. As she departs site A she looses a shoe, and in her dehydrated, starved, scared, near-delusional state doesn't notice and/or doesn't care. She moves to site K to survive another day or so and dies there. The can-label fragment in the fire at site A could be attributed to good camp-ground manners of later -- post 1970 -- unknown visitors that simply used a campfire site that had been created by someone else. Most hikers and campers do this all the time. That's the best I can create without seeing a map of the island and the locations of sites A and K to get a better grip on this thing. Good luck! *************************************************************** From Ric I think you may be on to something. Niku is not a place where you abandon your shoes willingly. If your foot is injured and too swollen to wear a shoe, you'd be likely to keep it in the hope that the swelling will eventually subside. You abandon your shoes only if they are no longer of any use to you because: 1. They are worn out or damaged in such a way as to be unusable. 2. You are dead. The presence of one shoe from two different pairs at the Aukaraime Site suggests to me, as it does to you, that this was a campsite for at least a brief time. I suspect that this was where Earhart and Noonan decided that their shoes were worn out. Both heels show lots of wear and it's not hard to imagine that, after a period of time on the island, with constant exposure to salt water and sun, the leather had shrunk and the stitching had rotted. They each have a spare pair and this is where they agree that it's time to use them. They switch to their spares and leave the worn out shoes behind when they move on. AE's blucher-oxfords have rubber soles and heels and brass eyelets, and that much survives the 54 years it took for us to find one of them. Fred's shoe had leather uppers and soles and the only thing left was the heel. The sole and heel of AE's other blucher-oxford and the heel of Fred's other shoe are there someplace, scattered by sixty years of bioturbation, but not too far away. We just haven't found them yet. If this scenario is correct, it means that they have survived long enough for their shoes to wear out (several weeks at least?) and they are both still alive and acting in concert. We have previously speculated that Earhart and Noonan, once the Navy search aircraft had departed without seeing them, may well have decided to explore their island in search of water or other usable assets. If the aircraft was landed and later wrecked on the northwest end of the atoll (as anecdotal and photographic evidence suggests), they most logically would have begun their exploratory circumnavigation by going down the northern coastline. The primary motivation for going in that direction would be to avoid having to ford the main lagoon passage which would involve wading waist deep for several hundred yards in shark-infested water. (I've done it- once. It's no fun.) We have recently learned that the Norwich City survivors in 1929, faced with the need to relocate from the same general area where we think the Electra was later landed to the southern (leeward) side of the island to be rescued, elected to walk around the long way rather than wade with the fishies. By the time Earhart and Noonan have made their way to the Aukaraime Site, their shoes are trashed and they change to their spares. The next day they come upon Kanawa Point which is a great spot for a number of reasons (cool lagoon breezes, good shade under the Kanawa trees, pools in the lagoon in which fish are trapped at low tide, lots of birds nesting nearby and easily caught). They make camp there and they actually succeed in catching a turtle trapped in the lagoon pool. After a couple of days Fred sets out to complete the circumnavigation and return to their main campsite near the airplane wreck. He'll bring back some useful items that they didn't bring along on their exploratory trip. He never returns. Maybe his are the bones that were later rumored found near the Norwich City, or maybe he didn't make it across the lagoon passage. We may never know. Amelia waits at Kanawa Point, and waits, and waits, and dies there. It is the sole of one of her saddle-shoes that is found by Gallagher, and the sextant box that they were using to carry things in, and the Benedictine bottle she had for drinking water. ( Fred took the canteen with him.) That's not the way it happened. We don't have enough information yet to really reconstruct the events. But it may be something like what happened. It's one picture into which we can fit the puzzle pieces we have. There may be other pictures which work just as well and we certainly welcome any suggestions. If and when we find more pieces we'll have a better picture. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:37:42 EST From: Dave Subject: Re: The Riddle of the Shoes Ric, it seems surprising that so little evidence is presented from each segment. The aircraft aluminum, part of a shoe, campfire, etc. One would surmise, given the scant evidence provided, that a claim of locating the final resting place of Amelia and Fred is unfounded. Truly competent research may uncover the wreckage, but the expenditures necessary to conduct such research without a guaranty of success or recapture of investment would involve considerable risk of capital. I am sure that your efforts to locate Ms. Earhart were preceeded by intensive study of the variables, including prevailing ocean currents, winds, sky conditions, radio transmissions, proposed flight headings, etc. This information would be invaluable in creating a search grid, rather than a simple line-of-flight directional search that would result in little more than an educated guess, based on dead reckoning, of the aircraft impact location. To assume a course deviation toward the island you investigated, ostensibly as an emergency measure, is a remote possibility. Any pilot will tell you that, while over the ocean, a course deviation of that magnitude should only be made when your position is known, not when you are seeking an alternate landing location from an unknown position. It would have been foolish for Ms Earhart to change course for that reason. I have flown many times over the ocean, and each time I spotted the destination island, it was a religious experience! To deviate from my proposed course in hopes of locating an alternate island, particularly without the necessary fuel to reach that island, would be a monumental error. I do not think that she would commit that type of error. ************************************************************** From Ric Speaking of monumental errors, let me correct some misconceptions: >a claim of locating the final resting place of Amelia and Fred is >unfounded. We make no such claim and we fully recognize that any such claim will require incontrovertible physical evidence such as parts with serial numbers and human remains matched to DNA. This is an investigation in which we invite the participation of anyone who is interested. It is not an attempt to convince anyone of anything. >Truly competent research may uncover the wreckage, but the expenditures >necessary to conduct such research without a guaranty of success or >recapture of investment would involve considerable risk of capital. You're absolutely right. This kind of historical research has never been justifiable as a business venture. What you're talking about is called treasure-hunting. We don't do that. TIGHAR is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit public charity. We have no investors, only contributors. >I am sure that your efforts to locate Ms. Earhart were preceded by intensive >study of the variables, including prevailing ocean currents, winds, sky >conditions, radio transmissions, proposed flight headings, etc. This >information would be invaluable in creating a search grid, rather than a >simple line-of-flight directional search... You're right about the intensive study we've made but your comments show that you are not at all familiar with the navigational aspects of the Earhart flight nor in the logic behind our identification of Nikumaroro as the most likely place for the flight to have ended. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:55:04 EST From: Jim Tweedle Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera Okay, my faded recollection leads me to realize that the film stock only determines the image height The width is determined by the camera format. This is borne out by the fact that the roll film's paper backing was imprinted with about 2 or 3 different frame numbering schemes, each visible thru an appropriately positioned little red plastic window in a particular camera back. My experience was with my Daddy's Kodak Medalist which I believe used 620 film and was manufactured in both a beautiful civilian version and an ugly military one which I think wa used at least by the Navy. (See "The Bedford Incident".) The Medalist generated eight frames of rectangularly formatted images. I still have the camera. I betcha that a square format would result in twelve images per roll. LTM, Jim Tweedle *************************************************************** From Tom Robison 2179 Ric wrote: >Well, we have a little discrepancy of opinion. Jim says that the 120 film is >not a truly square format. You say it is. This should not be hard to >document. I borrowed and used a Yashica twin lens camera several years ago. I can't remember if it used 120 or 620 film, but I can assure you the negative was and is truly square. Tom #2179 ************************************************************** From Vern 2124 >From Ken > >The format of the 120/620 film could be square OR rectangular. The >difference was in the camera itself. If the square format (2 1/4" X 2 1/4") >was used, you got 12 exposures. If the rectangular format was used, you got >8 per roll. The difference between 120 and 620 was in the spool. The 120 >had a larger hole for mounting in the camera. 120 film was even used in the >OLD box cameras common to the 20's - 40's. That's about it. The larger (wood center) spool of the 120 made the whole roll larger in diameter. Hence, 120 could not be used in some of the 620 cameras because the roll wouldn't fit in the space allowed. Of course, it would work the other way around. These kinds of roll film were used in all sorts of cameras, box, folding, twin-lens reflex, and single lens reflex, any kind you can think of. The film is just a strip of plastic with a photo-sensitive coating... format is determined by the camera. The paper backing strip had numbers printed on it that could be seen through a little window in the back of the camera. There were rows of numbers for 8 or 12 exposures and I think there was even a third row of numbers for some other number of exposures (maybe 16 for half-size rectangular?) I have a folding type camera that can take either 8 rectangular, or 12 square pictures per roll of 620 film. This is accomplished with a mask that can be put in the camera before loading in the film. You also open the appropriate little window in the back so you're seeing the right row of exposure numbers. If you leave the mask out, and open the other little rear window, you get 8 rectangular pictures per roll. There is also a little mask that can be flipped up in the view finder when using the 12 exposure, square option. All that doesn't answer the essential question, and I doubt that anybody really wanted to hear that much about it!! ************************************************************** From Fred Madio 2042 Good questions. I'll see what I can do about coming up with some useful answers. For starters, there is a small museum collection at Harvard (pronounced HAAV-ard) that might have some info. Kodak in Rochester, NY might also have some information. I'll keep everyone posted. A twin lens reflex camera was (and still is -- although rarely used today except by some professional photographers) designed with two lenses, one on top of the other. The top lens was designed to image the subject of the photograph -- the wrecked aircraft in this case -- onto a ground glass screen located on the top of the camera that the photographer could then view through a square opening on the top of the camera. The bottom lens was designed to image the same scene onto the film. To use the camera, the photographer, opened a "flip-up" trap door like cover on the top of the camera and viewed/composed the subject by looking downward into the camera which was held in the photographer's hands at "belly-button" height. Hence the earlier reference to the "belly-button perspective." The entire camera was about the size of the little speakers that are sold with computers these days. By the way #1: It just occurred to me that it could be possible that the wreck photo might have been taken with a single lens camera, with a collapsing bellows situated between the imaging lens and the film. It was also held at belly-button height when being used to compose/shoot a picture. Kodak practically invented this type of camera sometime in the Teens and Twenties (a guess -- not the results of any research -- yet.) This type of camera was much more common, and a lot cheaper than the more technically sophisticated twin-lens reflex design. Therefore it seem far more likely that some GI or whoever might have had one of these. By the way #2: Do you have anyone (FBI, NASA, NSA, NRO, or wherever) that could look at the copy you have and draw out any useful information based on an examination of grain size, depth of focus, field of view, etc, etc? Regards/ . . . Fred Madio **************************************************************** From Ric We've had the photo exhaustively examined by Jeff Glickman of Photek, a forensic imaging lab in Hood River, Oregon. There's nothing really remarkable to go on. *************************************************************** From Fred Madio 2042 I may be wrong, but I think that 120 film did produce 2.25 X 2.25 inch contact prints. So did/does 240, and perhaps 110. I'll check into it more and post the results. In the meantime, it would be best not to discard the possibility that the camera might have been a "120 type". Hang loose, Regards/ Uncle traveling Fred ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:24:39 EST From: Tom Cook Subject: Wreck Photo Camera Several people have posted correct and a little incorrect information about the camera used to take the "wreck photo". With more than 50 years experience, in photography including TV work, 3yrs as an army photographer ('57-'60), at the US Army Aviation Board, where they test A/C for the army, as well as other professional and amateur work I will try to bring this all together. It started with the obverservation that there are vertical lines in the print that TIGHAR has, that appear to be scratches on the negative, that the image is square, rather than rectangular, that the perspective appears to be waist level, rather than eye level, and that the mage is not very sharp. As has been noted vertical scratches on the negative would indicate a camera where the film advances vertically rather than horizontally, however the camera could have been held on its side which would have rotated the scratches 90 degrees, although not likely. The square image could indicate a 2 1/4x2 1/4 format on 120 or 620 film OR it could have been done by "cropping" in the darkroom (printing only part of the image, in this case only the part fitting into a square.) in which case the negative could have been any size or shape. 120/620 film can produce 12 2 1/4x2 1/4 or 8 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 pictures per roll depending on how thecamera is made. The "bellybutton" perspective would indicate a camera normally held at waist level such as the twin lens reflex (Rolliflex and its immitators) and single lens reflex (Hasselblad and Bronica) which are expensive European and Japanese cameras. There are other cameras that are held at that level, they include box cameras, simple fixed focus, USUALLY used 116 film, similar to 120/620, only slightly larger, USUALLY produced a rectangular image. One exception was a cheap plastic box camera sold by Kodak in the '50's, called the Brownie Hawkeye, It was very popular in the US, I don't know about Britain,but it may well have been. As I recall this camera used 620 film and produced 12 2 1/4x2 1/4 pictures per roll. Also there were folding cameras that tended to be better tn quality with adjustable focus, shutter and lens settings, they produced rectangular images, and transported the film vertically in most cases. The other group are the cheap fixed focus twinlens reflex type cameras sold by Kodak, Ansco, and others. With regard to the fuzzy image it was probably produced by a cheap fixed focus tourist type camera, but it could have been produced by an adjustable camera that was out of focus, or an enlarger that was out of focus. A greatly enlarged image would tend to be fuzzy, but the grain the would be enlarged also. IF the picture is genuine and not a hoax, and iF the image hasn't been cropped, my nominations would be the Brownie Hawkeye, or a cheap reflex type as the most likely candidates for the wreck photo camera. I never saw any army camera that would fit any of these specs. TC 2127 *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Tom. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:32:16 EST From: unknown Subject: what a heel! Ric, just an observation: Why would anyone married to George Putnam wear reheeled shoes? **************************************************************** From Ric Glad you brought that up. It's a common misconception that GP was wealthy. He wasn't. He and AE did okay by Great Depression standards but they lived on the edge of their income. Amelia was on the road (not in the air) constantly doing lectures and personal appearances because they needed the money. Getting the Electra repaired after the wreck in Hawaii was a huge financial challenge for them and they ended up deeply in debt. As Amelia commented before departing on the second world flight attempt, "The future is mortgaged, but what are futures for?" Reheeled shoes? You betcha. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:58:15 EST From: Gary Moline Subject: Radio Operators I did some research about the request last week concerning USN radio operators during WW2. My ex-father-in-law was a radio operator on a USN destroyer from 1944-46. The ranks were Radioman First, Second and Third class. As far as radio traffic went, during the war ALL radio traffic was encoded coming inbound or going outbound from the ship. The traffic codes all came in as five letter words which were handed off to a specially designated person (not necessarily officer) who then decoded the messages. A coded message would not be able to be interpreted by a radioman. The codes were changed every 24 hours and each ship had it's own four letter identifier (that would also be changed every 24 hours) so that the radioman would be able to tell which messages were for his ship. All messages were transmitted from area "Fox Stations." Honolulu was the Pacific "Fox Station." I asked if he ever heard any rumors during his Navy days about AE and he said no. I asked him about radio transmissions during peace time and he said that they were usually in plain English and that he thought that any radio traffic during 1937 would have probably been non-coded but that they had the option to code messages whenever it was seen fit. I hope that this info has helped. Let me know if I can pass along any other questions to him as his memory is very vivid of those days. Gary Moline Orlando, Fl. *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Gary. Good information. I wonder if the procedures that were standard in 1944 were implemented as early as the fall of 1942. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:11:44 EST From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: The Riddle of the Shoes Slightly off on a tangent.... Can any information be gleaned from the wear patterns on the heels we have ? Are they perhaps worn more on one side that the other ? Many people walk slightly crookedly so that the same asymmetric wear patterns happen time and again with their various footwear. Just wondered - long shot - whether any film or pictures of AE/FN walking would show any traits that an expert (maybe a chiropodist ?) could match to the wear patterns on the heels. LTM Simon *************************************************************** From Ric Good thought. The heels are both worn more on one side than the other in a pattern that is typical of most people. We know that the Cat's Paw heel is from a left shoe because of coding on the heel and the shape of the sole that it fits. It is worn most at the outside rear. My shoe heels look the same way. the other heel is worn ina simialr way but without any coding or a sole to match it to, we can't say for sure whether it's from a left or right shoe. If the wear is on the outside rear, as is typical, then it's a right shoe. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:14:05 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera >My experience was with my Daddy's Kodak Medalist which I believe used >620 film and was manufactured in both a beautiful civilian version and an ugly >military one which I think was used at least by the Navy. (See "The Bedford >Incident".) The Medalist generated eight frames of rectangularly formatted >images. I still have the camera. That's interesting. My daddy had a Medalist, too, which was issued to him by the Navy (he was a Cdr. in military government in the Pacific during the War). I never knew what size or shape pictures it took because I could never figure out how the damned thing worked. My brother did, though, and still has the camera, I think. But it's not a twin-lens reflex, as I recall, so it wouldn't produce the "belly-button" level image that's been attributed to the wreck photo. Tom King ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:26:33 EST From: Dave Subject: Funding Sources Dear Ric, I did not intend to belittle your expedition, nor your methods used to approximate the crash location. I merely suggest that there are so many variables inherent in this type of research, and so much funding required to track down each lead, that an organization such as this simply cannot function within the financial constraints of donations. Some form of sponsoring must be considered. Forensic research conducted without sufficient, reliable funding is a hit or miss proposition. The historical significance of this find would be enormous. However, you cannot, and I emphasize this, cannot present any evidence (that is not thoroughly investigated) no matter how promising, to the public as an inticement to solicit donations. The television documentary of your research betrayed more wishful thinking than scientific research. Uncovering the grave sight, and locating small pieces of evidence that are easily disproven by competent forensic scientists and aviation historians does more to harm your cause than will benefit the organization. No one wants to see the hard evidence of Earhart's remains more than you, and myself. Flight 19, Nungesser and Coli, they pale in comparison with the historical significance of your research. Please consider some commercial funding to attain the best personnel for this research. *************************************************************** From Ric Thank you for raising this issue. It's an important one. I agree wholeheartedly that our greatest need is for sufficient, reliable funding - and I certainly do not mean to convey the impression that we are opposed to or resistant to commercial sponsorship. As a matter of fact, I have been busting my butt for ten years trying to find a major corporation that would sponsor our work in return for the PR benefits. Hell, I'll endorse products, write articles, do personal appearances, wear logos, sing, dance and play the concertina to fund this project. (We will not, however, accept a nickel from tobacco, alcohol or gambling interests - period. I've still gotta look at myself in the mirror every morning.) So far our commercial sponsorship successes have been small but important. The sale of media rights has been the principal source of cash sponsorship. 1991 - NBC News Productions - $50,000 to send a cameraman along on Niku II. Also LIFE magazine - $10,000 for me to write a feature article and another $10,000 to send a photographer along on the expedition. 1997 - ABC News and the Discovery Channel - $100,000 to send a three-person film crew along on Niku III. Other commercial sponsorship has been primarily in the form of donated services. FedEx - free shipping of expedition equipment around the U.S.- value $20,000 Air Pacific - free shipping of expedition equipment to and from Fiji - $20,000 ScubaPro - equipment for the dive team - $5,000 Willis & Geiger Outfitters - Clothing for the team - $10,000 and so on. Our cash needs have been met primarily by tax-deductible contributions from individuals. Most people don't realize that 85% of the sponsorship for nonprofit causes in the U.S. comes from private individuals - not foundations, not corporations. They don't realize it because the foundations and the corporations trumpet their sponsorship, while most philanthropic individuals stay very, very quiet. I am puzzled by your admonition that "(Y)ou cannot, and I emphasize this, cannot present any evidence (that is not thoroughly investigated) no matter how promising, to the public as an inticement to solicit donations." At what point does a piece of evidence become "thoroughly investigated?" We can only report honestly what we know and what we suspect, being sure to make it clear which is which. We solicit donations from people who are interested in what we have learned, share our suspicions, want to help us follow up the leads. Your impression that we have presented "small pieces of evidence that are easily disproven by competent forensic scientists and aviation historians" is incorrect. On those occasions - and there have been several - when a promising hypothesis was tested and disproved, the competent forensic scientists and aviation historians who have done the disproving have been our own. Not once has any of our critics done anything more than offer dissenting opinions. Examples: We thought the navigator's bookcase (Artifact 2-1) might be from the Earhart plane. Lots of critical opinion was expressed, but no documentation. We're the ones who ultimately identified it as identical to bookcases modified for use in early B-24s. We thought that the section of airplane skin (Artifact 2-2-V-1) might be from the repaired aft belly of the Earhart plane. Lots of expert critical opinion from engineers and former Lockheed employees, but also lots of expert concurring opinion from engineers and former Lockheed employees (that didn't get reported in the press). We ultimately decided that a location farther forward on the belly, where a patch had been installed on NR16020, was a better possibility but, after a great deal of effort, we were able to locate two good photos of the Electra which could be enhanced to show the rivet pattern in the suspect location. No dice. The pattern was wrong. The hypothesis was disproved - by us, not our critics. I still think that piece of aluminum came from the Electra but we just don't have enough information about how the repairs on the aft belly were accomplished to prove or disprove it. No one does. I have repeatedly challenged our critics to find someplace on some other airplane, any other airplane, that fits the artifact better than NR16020. If there is such a match out there that will finally disqualify 2-2-V-1 as a possible piece of the Earhart plane, it will probably be us who find it. If you or anyone else within earshot has a contact for possible commercial sponsorship, please let me know. But please, please don't flood me with suggestions like "Why don't you try thus and so." Trust me. We've tried lots and lots of cold call approaches to thus and so. That's not how major corporate sponsorship happens. I need an expression of interest from somebody high enough in the company to get our case heard and seriously considered. Give me that and I'll be eager to show them how sponsorship of the Niku III expedition and the Voyage of Discovery educational program will be the smartest 1.4 million dollars they ever spent, regardless of whether we find Amelia Earhart or not. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:15:50 EST From: Mike Subject: Re Riddle of the Shoes Ric, I hate to say it but some of the theories to explain the widely seperated shoes sound pretty far out. Isn't it more likely that our hoped-for kanawa point site is not in fact relevant, and the bones *were* found in the same place TIGHAR found the shoe heel? ************************************************************** From Ric Hard as it is to come up with a reasonable scenario for the separation for the shoes, it's just as hard to explain, if our site is also Gallagher's site: 1. Why, despite what he says was a thorough search, did Gallagher not find the two heels and rather large sole that we found? 2. Why, despite a search that was almost certainly more rigorous than Gallagher's, did we not find any of the 117 bones that he didn't find? Gallagher's specific reference to the kanawa tree nearby and the 1939 New Zealand map which shows kanawa trees only in the Kanawa Point area are pretty strong clues that it's the right place. While some of the shoe distribution theories put forth are admittedly farfetched (except, of course, mine) that doesn't mean that there isn't a perfectly plausible explanation. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:17:28 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Wreck Photo camera Ric, the twin-lens cameras we've been discussing/reading about did generally use 120 film (square negative, 2 1/4 by 2 1/4 - I've owned several. SOME could also use 220 film (only difference is that there were more exposures on 220. My recollection is, 620 was more rectangular, but I don't recall the dimensions. I don't know what the metric equivalent to 2 1/4 square would be, but you might think about that. I wouldn't be surprised if the japanese brought out copycat cameras after the war in this format - they certainly did with 35mm... LTM, jon ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:34:13 EST From: Hugh Graham Subject: Re: Riddle of the Shoes Hello Ric: What happened to the 11 bodies from the Norwich City grounding in 1929? Could shoes have come from them? LTM HAG 2201 **************************************************************** From Ric Well, Gallagher found what he says was a womans shoe with what now seem to have been a woman's bones, and we found a woman's shoe and another heel that could have been from a man's shoe. There were no women aboard Norwich City, so unless someone on the crew was in drag, the only shoe part found on the island that reasonably could be from the ship is the second heel found near the woman's blucher-oxford. That would be quite a coincidence. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:06:00 EST From: Simon Ellwoodd Subject: Re: Riddle of the Shoes Just to sound another small note of caution.... Let's not get tied into a possible "Type I" error here.... The Kanawa Point theory is certainly worthy of investigation - Gallagher's side of the evidence is certainly strong and compelling but the weak link seems to me to be the map - just how accurate and detailed was it ? Is it possible that Gallagher's kanawa was a lone tree NOT on Kanawa Point and unworthy of mention on the Kiwi map, or indeed perhaps unnoticed by the New Zealanders ? We really need to know whether Kanawa Point was in reality the only place they grew. I'm no tree expert, but why would one type of tree confine itself to just one small portion of an island - unless of course the ground there favours it better? What does a Kanawa look like ? Are they distinguishable in any of the aerial photos of that period ? LTM Simon #2120 *************************************************************** From Ric Valid points. I don't know what a kanawa tree (Cordia subcordata) looks like. There haven't been any on Nikumaroro since at least the early 1970s and probably quite bit earlier. The map made by the New Zealand survey party is pretty good but it certainly doesn't show and label every tree on the island. While it's true that certain types of trees only grow on certain parts of the island due to some rather pronounced variations in the nature of the ground, it seems possible that a lone kanawa tree could have grown on the lagoon shore somewhwer other than Kanawa Point. The kanawa connection is a possible clue. but it won't support the entire hypothesis. Aerial photos taken in April 1939 show some big trees on Kanawa Point but they don't look remarkably different than what we know are big ol' buka (Pisonia grandis) trees elsewhere - so that's not a lot of help. Other factors that support the hypothesis that Kanawa Point is where the bones were found are: - its association with supernatural events by the Gilbertese settlers (the story about the Native Magistrate's wife seeing the goddess Nei Manganibuka there). - physical evidence of an early human presence. This is new information, or more accurately, this is old information which we have only recently realized may have significance. In 1989, when Tom King and a few other team members made a brief recon of Kanawa Point as part of our general look-see of the whole island, Tom noted a small pile of shells representative of perhaps 15 clams (Triadacna gigantea) near the shoreline. They were quite small for Giant Clams, maybe 6 to 8 inches long by 4 to 6 inches wide, but should have been very good eating. Generally, a feature like this is evidence of human activity and Tom bent down to pick up one of the shells for a closer look, but to his surprise found that they had become cemented into the coral. Assuming this to be a process that took hundreds of years, he regarded the shells as possible evidence of prehistoric habitation (we had already found a couple of basalt tools elsewhere) and moved on after a cursory look around for anything else of interest. Now, with our special interest in Kanawa Point, Tom has consulted with experts in coral growth and learned that such cementation can easily occur in a matter of decades. We're still chewing on these clams but they're pretty interesting. This could be one more indication that something unusual happened at Kanawa Point. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:23:31 EST From: Monty Subject: Castaways of Gardner Island If AE and FN did survive longer than a week or two, and that could be, what bothers me is why they were not spotted by the search planes that were there just one week after their disappearance. Surely they would of headed for a place where they could of been seen from the air, soon as they heard aircraft engines. That was the only island to search in the immediate vacinity. The three planes from the USS Colorado surely must have flown over several times and searched well. How could they miss them? Monty *************************************************************** From Ric Easy. You had to be there. We have had the indentical experience of being on Nikumaroro when a low-flying plane arrived unexpectedly and then trying, and failing, to attract its attention. In our case the plane was a RNZAF Lockheed Orion and we were, by coincidence, out in the open a the time so we didn't have to run stumbling through the jungle to get out to the beach (which can take at least 10 to 15 minutes depending on where you are). First of all, with the constant noise of wind and breaking surf, you can't hear a low-flying plane until it's right on top of you. Second, assuming that you're already out in the open, you're waving against a backdrop of moving, windblown vegetation. There was a dozen of us wearing brightly colored clothing and waving our little arms off. The Orion flew right by us not a half mile away and probably at 500 ft AGL and never saw us. They saw our ship just fine and buzzed it, but we saw no indication that they saw the people on the island. Third, it's a huge island when you're talking about looking for people on the ground. The Navy did see "signs of recent habitation" which prompted them to try to get somebody to come out and wave by "repeated circling and zooming." We don't know what they saw but they obviously spent quite a bit of their available time over that one spot. Finally, any experienced search pilot will tell you that finding people on the ground without supplemental technology (FLIR, or an emergency beacon) is very difficult and successful searches are the exception rather than the rule. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:29:04 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Castaways of Gardner Island Ric's comment: "First of all, with the constant noise of wind and breaking surf, you can't hear a low-flying plane until it's right on top of you." Add to that the probable poor physical condition both AE and FN were in; probably suffering from severe dehydration, hunger, possible injuries, and mental fatigue. In that condition they would probably be staying out of the sun to conserve as much energy as possible, and they simply may not have had the ability to move into the open. If the heat and humidity on Niku are as bad a Ric says they are, it is easy to see a person becoming exhausted in only a few hours. Even here in Maryland in August it is common to have temperatures at 90-plus degrees in the shade with the humidity pushing into the high 90s. After only a few hours of that weather I'm dying for a bunch of air conditioning. The heat and humidity alone could have done in AE and FN in a just a few days, add lack of food, etc, and bingo, it's time for St. Peter. *************************************************************** From Ric The heat can indeed be oppressive but if you stay in the shade, especially on the southwestern lagoon shore where the breeze comes across the lagoon, and you don't exert yourself, it's not so bad. Water is the primary worry, but as long as it rains once in awhile and you have sense enough to catch it in something, the place is survivable. The dead birds, turtle and fire which Gallagher says were found with the bones suggests a period of survival greater than a few days. The wear on the shoe heels we found also suggests considerable time on the harsh coral surface of the island. Based on what we know and what we suspect, I'd guess that we're looking at a period of survival of several weeks at least. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:25:54 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: St. Exupery found? Reports are still sketchy, but it seems that a French fisherman's net recently dragged up a few items that appear to be from Antoine de St. Exupery's lost P-38. The location is about 20 miles off Marsailles. Among the items reportedly recoverd was a bracelet bearing the names of St. Exupery, his wife and his American publisher. St. Exupery was a famous pre-war French airmail pilot and author. Aside from several very good aviation books he also wrote the classic children's book The Little Prince. During the war he disappeared over the Mediterranian while flying a mission in a photo-recon version of the Lockheed P-38. Big mystery. In recent years there have been at least a couple attempts to locate his plane. If verified, this is an amazing find. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:49:46 EST From: Tom O'Hare Subject: Re: Castaways of Gardner Island Sorry in advance for the longish message -- hope that it helps. You wrote: > Finally, any experienced search pilot will tell you that > finding people on the ground without supplemental technology > (FLIR, or an emergency beacon) is very difficult and successful > searches are the exception rather than the rule. I have to interject here in that I have extensive experience as a search and rescue pilot flying Cuban Refugee SAR missions. (Yes, you are probably wondering how it could be that I know USN coding, airplanes, and SAR flying all in one person, but it is true.) You can read a bit about it in an old Discovery Channel Online feature story they did about me (they wrote it, but credited me as author). It is located online at the following address: http://www.discovery.com/DCO/doc/1012/world/wings/rescue/rescue1.html (There is even an old photo of me in there (taken seven years ago while flying SAAM missions in C-5s.) Anyway, to the point at hand -- in the Straits of Florida, there were a set of islands (many just rocks jutting up out of the water) called the Cay Sal Bank. Some of the islands were larger and had vegetation on them and beaches. During the Cuban refugee period of 1992-1995, several times a month, Cuban refugees would be lucky enough to wash up on the beaches (most simply died at sea) and we would then be able to spot them there from our aircraft (Cessna 337 Skymasters), quite easier in fact than spotting them in a raft on the ocean's surface. It was not hard to spot the Cubans if they were near their raft/boat and right on the beach. The proven best method (from our experience) of island search is to fly down the beach at between 100 feet and 200 feet of altitude, offset to sea in order to avoid circling birds, a very real hazard, and throttled back to about 120 kts. Higher and faster is not as good and you could fly right by and not see a thing. If the refugees were inland, they were very difficult to spot, even with just low vegetation (no trees). It had less to do with the winds moving branches and such (much of this is quite invisible from the air as you go by at 135 mph), but rather that the overall background pattern is irregular, full of shadows and colors. Most refugees wore browns and tans, which blended in quite well. I've often wondered how it is that so many pilots and crews, including Earhart and Noonan, fly overwater with such little forethought and preparation for maritime survival. Earhart and Noonan, I believe, both wore tan slacks, brown shirts, etc. -- a certain prescription if you want to disappear out there. (Any of you pilots out there, if you are doing any overwater flying, at least wear a bright orange baseball cap, please, and preferably an orange colored shirt - also bring a mirror and know how to use it; all of this will really help a SAR crew to spot you if you are unlucky enough to have to ditch out there.) If you are interested in a full discussion of overwater SAR techniques and experiences, I will be quite pleased to provide one for you -- just give the word. I used to teach the course for new pilots, including to some members of the USCG (their operating practices in C-130s and Falcons are quite different and involve considerably more technology and from higher altitudes, and some of their crews expressed an interest in our methods in that they worked so closely with us). Our technique was based on the Mark I Eyeball combined good operational planning and lots of experience -- probably not much different of an approach than the USCG and USN used in Earhart's day. Also, if you have sea reports, wave heights, etc., from the day they disappeared, I could give you some operational data and a discussion about what would have been their chances of being spotted (if they had gone down in the ocean, for instance), or if they were on the land. Again, just give the word. Thomas C. Van Hare *************************************************************** From Ric Very interesting. Thanks Tom. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:02:56 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Riddle of the Shoes But Simon's note of caution is entirely in order. Kanawa Point is a strong contender, but so still is Aukaraime, and we have to remain open to other possibilities as well. Remember that we were so focussed on Aukaraime that we'd never really thought about Kanawa Point -- until we began to chew over what Gallagher might have meant by the "Southeast corner" of the island. Right now -- considering that the actual SE corner of the island was so chewed up by the Loran station that it's probably not worth much study, and doesn't fit other aspects of the description anyway -- we have two more or less equally probable places to look -- Kanawa Point and Aukaraime. There may be more. LTM Tom King ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:07:11 EST From: Monty Subject: Re: Castaways of Gardner Island God!, How unfortunate and sad, to think that they might have watched the search planes disappear into the distance never to return. Thank you for your answer, every time you explain something like that I get a better picture of what its like on that island. ************************************************************* From Ric If the evidence we're finding is what we think it is, there were dramas played out on that island that no fiction writer could ever imagine. Monty ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:23:57 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Counting shoes I have caught some of the shoe discussion. So far it has been speculated that there were 8 pairs of shoe on the Lockheed 1. Earhart's Blucher-Oxford, work/flying shoes 2. Earhart's Two-toned saddle shoes for going to church or seeing important people 3. Fred's black dress-type shoes, assumed to be work shoes 4. Fred's assumed extra pair of shoes, (seems logical not to leave with only 2 pair along, especially if you are going to meet the president/dictator of a country But wait...there is evidence of yet another pair. In the spirit of the canned bananas I refer you to the Luke Field Crash report dated 20 March 1937. Item No. 66 lists: Waterproof bag containing: 2 flying suits, 1 raincoat, 1 pr. gloves and 1 pr. of shoes. That makes 10 pairs of shoes. LTM Kenton S. ************************************************************** From Ric Leave it to Kenton. Yup, you're right. There are 1 pair of spare shoes in the Luke Field inventory. But how do we interpret that? This was the first trip, where Fred was supposed to get off at Howland Island, so it's likely that the shoes in the bag were Amelia's. I'll see your Luke Field inventory and raise you a newspaper clipping from the New York Herald Tribune dated March 7, 1937: "In the plane she'll wear light, low shoes. And this time she's taking along a pair of heavy, high walking boots 'just in case' as she puts it." Betcha the shoes in the bag were the hiking boots. But let's remember that all this is referencing the first world flight attempt. A lot of water went under the bridge between March and June. However, the hiking boots may have stayed aboard so - yes - we could be looking at ten pairs of shoes on the airplane/island. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:01:30 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Fred's Plan B Amanda wrote on 10/8/98: "Regarding the Winslow Reef speculation: Wouldn't Amelia and Fred have set out from Lae having checked out possible Plan B islands? I can't quite picture an experienced Pan Am navigator not learning his options. Especially if there weren't that many. I can't help thinking that Fred knew Winslow Reef wasn't a good choice." I think there is something to this line of thinking as the Plan B would have been developed during the early part of the original flight plan from Hawaii to Howland. Under this scenario, the likely miss or overshoot of Howland would most likely result in finding oneself in the Phoenix islands. Even Carrington, who is a die hard "landed in the Japanese controlled islands" buff, notes that the Phoenix Islands were a natural fall back position for the flight from Hawaii to Howland. It would take only a few degrees error off of the direct line from Hawaii to Howland to take you direct to Niku. Ric, help me out here, how many degrees off would it be to end up in the Phoenix group from Hawaii?? Given this scenario, it is likely that Fred was quite familiar with the Phoenix group for his contingency plan long before they ever got to the Pacific leg of the East bound trip. In other words, Niku may not have been chosen at the last minute under extreme circumstances once Howland was not located, It would have been in the plan all along, ever since the original attempt out of Hawaii. Seems to me that Paul Mantz would have been in on the details of any Plan B for the first attempt, so there may be something there to look for in his papers. Question? There were several other persons / groups planning to circumnavigate the globe at about the same time AE made her attempt. Do we know anything about their intended routes and whether or not Howland and the Phoenix group were in any way included in those plans? Was AE the only one being given access to Howland? Andrew McKenna #1045C ************************************************************** From Ric I'm probably wrong but I don't recall other world flights planned for 1937. As far as I know, Amelia's was the only planned use of Howland. Let's review what facts are available: Remember that Fred didn't join the Earhart team until a few days before the departure from Oakland on March 17. Most of the navigational planning for the first attempt was done by Clarence Williams, a "consultant in navigation" in Los Angeles. He prepared strip maps with headings and distances as well as destination charts with navigational aids noted. Many of them are on file at Purdue. No alternates or back up plans are in evidence. Harry Manning was Earhart's first choice as a navigator for the flight and it is possible that he had some sort of contingency plan, but if he did there is no record of it in his papers at the Merchant Marine Museum. Mantz's papers are at the EAA Library, but they make no particular reference to Earhart. The only hint we've found of a possible contingency plan for the first Howland attempt is a regular old National Geo map of the world now in the Earhart Special Collection at Purdue University. In the Central Pacific area, Howland is enlarged with a red dot,the equator is marked with a zero in pencil and the the ten degree lines of latitude north and south of the equator are similarly marked with a 10 in pencil. A short pencil line is drawn across the 170 degree line of longitude about 200 miles south of the Phoenix Islands, possibly signifying the anticipated extreme limit of the flight's fuel. In the Phoenix Group, Enderbury Island is underlined in pencil. At the time the first attempt was being planned, the U.S. was claiming ownership of Canton and Enderbury Islands. There was not yet any habitation on either island but Enderbury is slightly closer to the 170 degree line. From this very scant evidence it is possible to speculate that Enderbury was seen as an alternate destination for the first attempt. However, if that was the plan it does not seem to have ever been communicated to the Coast Guard in the dozens of messages coordinating the preparations for the flight. As for Noonan's contingency planning for the flight to Howland from Lae in July, we have even less to go on. Francis "Fuzz" Furman who spent time with Noonan in Bandoeng, Java says that, at that time, Fred was quite concerned about the navigational aspects of the upcoming Howland flight and seemed almost obsessive about checking the accuracy of his chronometer (which he carried with him everywhere). But according to the Chater Report, by the time the aircraft departed Lae about 10 days later, Fred was very confident about the flight. Here is what might have happened. Fred had to know that there was a chance that the DF radio navigation portion of the plan would fail. He was looking for a way to reliably find an island to land on if they didn't hit Howland. What he needed was a good, solid Line of Position that the knew he could establish with accuracy and then follow to other islands - quite literally, a highway in the sky. The trouble is, a Line of Position requires a celestial observation. A star is not going to be much help because you're going to want to be looking for your island(s) in the daytime. Gotta be the sun. But the sun, like the stars, is in a slightly different place at a given time each successive day. Until you know to within just a few days when it is that the flight will be made, you can't know what Lines of Position you may have to work with. That's the problem Fred has when he's in Java. There are some annoying mechanical problems with the airplane and they have to be fixed before the trip can continue. They're already way behind schedule. Any preplanning he has done based upon the original timeline is out the window. But once he gets to Lae and knows that they can split as soon as he can get a good time check on his chonometer, he can devise a plan. Here 'tis. Leave Lae sometime mid-morning so that you make sunrise a few hundred miles short of Howland. By happy coincidence, the sun will rise at 67 degrees which will give you an LOP of 337/157. Advance that line by dead reckoning through Howland and you have a line that also passes through Baker 40 miles southeast of Howland. If you're unlucky enough to miss both Howland and Baker, there are still another couple of islands on that same line down in the Phoenix Group and still within your fuel range. Heck of a plan. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:17:17 EST From: James Scott Subject: Re: Castaways of Gardner Island Regarding AE and FN being missed by the fly-over. If Amelia and Fred had landed on Niku and been in reasonable physical shape, wouldn't they try to build or create something which would by visible from the air? Like dumping stuff in an open area in an obviously man-made shape or something? Maybe they didn't have access to anything suitable. I admit I have no experience of what is visible to the naked eye from the air and no experience of being stranded on a desert island, but I think that's what I would attempt to do in their position (situation allowing, obviously). You expect people to search for you and you expect it to be difficult to spot you. Is it unrealistic to imagine that this was possible to do? Maybe my mental image of a large 'AE' spelt out in branches on an open beach merely highlights my lack of experience... James *************************************************************** From Ric You would build a signal visible from the air because you would naturally expect an aerial search. Earhart and Noonan could have had no such expectation. Theirs was the only airplane in that part of the world. They could have had no clue that the Navy would send a battleship all the way from Hawaii with floatplanes to conduct a search, let alone an aircraft carrier from San Diego. It would seem to make sense for them to prepare for the possibility that a ship would appear on the horizon. Maybe Itasca would come looking. How do you attract the attention of a ship far out at sea? I'd make a pile of brush on the shore and, if possible, dowse it with oil from the plane so that if I saw a ship I could send up a big plume of black smoke. But then if planes suddenly appeared overhead I might not be able to get to my brush pile in time to light it before they had left. Could piles of brush on the beach with footprints around them be the "signs of recent habitation" or "markers of some kind" described by the Colorado's Senior Aviator? LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:49:30 EST From: R Howards Subject: Re: Counting shoes hi y'all i'm kinda new to this forum, and there might be something i missed, but if EA had 2 pair of shoes and FN had 2 pair of shoes and somebody had a spare pair of shoes.....doesn't that make 5 pair (10 shoes) and not 10 pair (20 shoes)??? rsh ************************************************************** Ermmm... At the risk of being flamed as petty - surely Kenton means 10 shoes not 10 pairs of shoes ? LTM Simon *************************************************************** From Ric You guys are right of course. The "10 pair" were on the Imelda Marcos flight rather than the Amelia Earhart flight. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:05:18 EST From: Chester Baird Subject: AE & FN This may already have been touched on, and I missed it. If so please forgive my intrusion. It seems to me that on the island after AE & FN landed, if the landing was a success and they both survived a while, they would not have died simultaneously and suicide does not appear to me to be a viable option either. It seems to me based on current Christian beliefs the lone survivor would bury the other? How has this been addressed and would it not lend hope of finding a complete skeleton? LTM Chester TIGHAR # 2160 ************************************************************** From Ric Excellent point. Yes, we've thought about that. A "low mound" associated with "signs of previous habitation" where it "looked like somone had bivouacked for the night" was seen by the first people to visit the island after the disappearance (Maude and Bevington in October 1937). Bevington placed the site somewhere near our Aukaraime site (where the shoe parts were found in 1991). We've wondered if the "low mound" might have been a grave. Motivation for burying your buddy would be high on Niku, regardless of your religious orientation. Letting the rapidly rotting corpse be pulled apart and bits carried off by giant coconut crabs would be the alternative. That's what happened to the poor devil whose bones Gallagher found. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:10:45 EST From: Dave Subject: Re: St. Exupery found? He was the author of "Night Flight" an excellent piece. *************************************************************** From Ric Also "Flight to Arras." Can you believe that the one thing that comes up in the fisherman's net is the bracelet with the names on it? Talk about a smoking gun. How come that never happens to us? ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:56:45 EST From: Dave Subject: Re: Riddle of the Shoes Keep thinking that parts of shoes and scraps of aluminum are proof. There is no discovery here that forensic science can't disprove. Aside from Ric's vivid descriptions of material decomposition in the harsh climate on that island, (we were still finding servicable WWII grenades, explosive shells, and aircraft hulks on Guam in the late seventies.) there is an aircraft hull somewhere out there in the Pacific, waiting for someone to discover. Ric's group has laid some of the ground work for modern exploration, and most of the recorded data during the intensive search for AE/FN is available for creating a search grid. We are fortunate that modern technology can aid immensely in locating metallic objects in deep water, or buried in impenetrable jungles. Combined with old fashioned tenacity and hard work, and the ever reliable "Mark One Eyeball" somebody should be able to find this invaluable piece of history. ************************************************************** From Ric (sigh) Let me try this again. We don't think that "parts of shoes and scraps of aluminum are proof." We think that they are encouraging evidence that some version of our hypothesis is true - that is, that the Earhart flight ended at Nikumaroro. You're right that "there is an aircraft hull somewhere out there in the Pacific, waiting for someone to discover." We think we have a pretty good hunch where it is and we're itching to go see if it's there. If I interpret you correctly, you're suggesting that a search grid of the ocean bottom and possible islands can be constructed from the records of the 1937 search and technolgy can be used to search the deep water and "inpenetrable jungles." I confess to being at a bit of a loss to think how to reply to such a suggestion. Do you have any concept of the size of the area you're talking about? You'd have to start with the area where, based upon the most liberal interpretation of its possible range, the plane could have come down and then drifted before it sank. That's an elipse several hundred miles wide and nearly a thousand miles long. Then, even if you take all the ocean and islands directly inspected by the Navy in 1937 and assume that the plane can't be anywere that was searched (hardly a valid assumption), you're left with thousands and thousands of square miles to inspect for an object (if completely intact) 55 feet wide and 38 feet long.. And just what technology do you have in mind? The best way to search the ocean bottom is with sonar, but you have to do it with a ship towing a "fish" and to get the kind of resolution you need to find something as tiny as an Electra (we're not talking the Titanic or the Yorktown here) you need to get the fish down close to the bottom and "mow the lawn" in quite narrow strips. And if there is technology that can see aluminum airplane wreckage through dense jungle vegetation it is unknown to me at this time. If Earhart and her plane are going to be found it will be by good scientific detective work, or dumb luck, not wholesale searching. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:03:50 EST From: Forest Blair Subject: Re: Counting shoes You mean 10 shoes, but 5 pairs, huh? Forest #2149 ************************************************************** From RE : "That makes 10 pairs of shoes. LTM Kenton S." AND "so - yes - we could be looking at ten pairs of shoes on the airplane/island. LTM, Ric" Not to split hairs or anything, but weren't we talking about 5 PAIRS of shoes, actually 10 individual shoes? :) ************************************************************** From Ric Nice to see that you guys are paying attention. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:42:52 EST From: Ron Dawson Subject: Swan crewmember George Nelson located Swan crewmember Louis Giordano and I talked to him today. Louis was on the Swan from 1940 to 1943 - he was a Machinists Mate, so his duty station was often down in the engine room and says he often didn't know what was happening topside. Sorry, no specific recollection of Gardner or plane wreckage or photos of same. He remembers picking up coconut seedlings in Suva and transporting them to various islands. He also remembers the British colonial officials. They called this trip the "coconut cruise". Appreciate the help of "Swan Swabs" George Nelson, Joel Dunlap, and Tom Robison. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson **************************************************************** From Ric This has been good work. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:48:59 EST From: Jim Kelly Subject: Heel wear A question on the heels that were found: Do they show wear at the very back? I ask that because I noticed that the heel of my shoe shows a wear pattern from driving. I don't know if driving an Electra involves resting the heel(s) on the floor or not. LTM Jim Kelly #2085 *************************************************************** From Ric Clever question, but no, the wear is offset to the outside. Flying an Electra, as with almost any airplane, involves using rudder pedals but the action is quite different from that of depressing an accelerator. The entire foot rests on the pedal rather than pivoting against the floor. No particular wear to shoes would result. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:06:05 EST From: Monty Subject: Survival on Gardner Island 1937 I understand that there were coconut palms planted on Gardner Island in 1892, and that the island was uninhabited till 1937 or 38. Thats 45 years for those trees to grow and produce and possibly multiply. I don't know much about coconut palm trees, When the coconuts or ripe and eatable, or how long the old coconuts will stay eatable lying on the ground, but it looks to me at this moment that maybe in July 1937 there were possibly coconuts and coconut juice available to any castaway on Gardner Island. So it looks like maybe in 1937 the local Gardner grocery store offered fish, turtles, turtle eggs, crabmeat, birdmeat, coconuts, coconut juice, rainwater and maybe some other delicacies found in the jungle or in the lagoon. Gee, AE and FN might have had so much to eat and drink that they got fat. If they did have enough to eat and drink, there is still the danger from lack of medicines incase of sickness or infections from accidents that could be fatal. After the necessity of food and drink are taken care of, There are other needs to work on , Like shelter, the need for tools. cutting tools, maybe the natives were not the first ones to try and salvage parts from the aircraft and ship wreck. Then there is fire. The matches would soon run out. I don't know what they would do about that, but it sure would be better to eat cooked meat instead of raw. Just sharing a few thoughts Monty *************************************************************** From Ric Lest anyone think that being marooned on Gardner would be like a remake of Blue Lagoon - the only other model we have for Westerners trying to make a go of it after being unexpectedly dumped there is the survivors of the Norwich City disaster in 1929. The coconuts were there then too, but these guys didn't eat them. They were also terrified of the crabs and rats and didn't eat them either. They were totally freaked out by the sharks, having heard the screams of one of their shipmates who became dinner before he could reach the shore. By the time they were rescued just five days later they were drinking rainwater from the puddles that formed in the crab holes. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:16:46 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Attracting attention on ground I echo Ric and Dennis's comments on why the Colorado pilots would not have seen Amelia and Fred on the ground. I tested this theory when I was on Niku in 1997. I went back into the brush aways and sat down. First off, it is very noisey there with the surf breaking all the time and the wind blowing and the birds and critters squawking. I pretended I heard an airplane. I ran out onto the beach, but wait.....all I can see is beach to either my left or right, ocean in front of me and sky above me. If the plane is behind me at low altitude, I cannot see it (and they cannot see me) because the tree canopy cuts off my view at that angle. Imagine running out of the door of a building 100 feet tall (8 stories high) and 3 miles long. You cannot see anything behind you. Yes you could run away from the building (in this case tall trees) but you can't because the ocean in 40 feet in front of you. Even if I can see the airplane, with an island 3 miles long, the plane could be 3 miles away.... So you start scrambling around trying to get into the line of sight of the airplane. Trouble is he is flying low (obscured by the trees in that direction)...and.he is a moving target... he is across the island somewhere, ....where do I run to? I start heading for the noise....so I start running through the trees toward the lagoon shore, I get over there only to find out that the plane has circled around and is now back over on the ocean side where I was!! Factor in the fact that if I am Fred or AE I am in very bad shape by this time and cannot move fast if at all.......also it is hard to look down out of an airplane......you have to dip the wings to get a good look etc, etc....... .The odds of being seen are not good. I was surprised at how hard it would have been. LTM Kenton Spading *************************************************************** From Ric So THAT'S what you were doing! I just figured, well, Kent has lost it. Happens to us all out there from time to time. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:36:44 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Lump in Throat Dept. I don't usually do this, but I'd like to share with all of you the text message that accompanied the registration of our most recent forum subscriber. This is a classic illustration of why we want to launch our Voyage of Discovery educational program. ******************************** I am a 15 year old high school student. For the past few years I have been researching Amelia. I have photos, books, films, recorded coverage of your story on tv, ect... Please do not take me lightly. I am very serious about what I study on Earhart. I wish I could go along to Gardner with you. I would give anything to be there if you stumble on to the actual Electra 10E right there in the jungles of Gardner! Please email me with your thoughts. I would love to talk to Ric about it. Thank you, Jonas D. Anderson -Dedicated Earhart Researcher ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:58:24 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: New Canton Engine info We have some new information on the Canton Engine mystery. Forest Blair, TIGHAR member 2149, and former CO on Canton, has succeeded in contacting the chief pilot for Global, the civilian contractor which provided crews for the helicopters on Canton for the SAMTEC operation. Bruce Yoho, who recovered the engine, was also a Global employee. Forest writes: "In telecon today with on-site manager/chief pilot for Global, Tom Lawrence, he stated that the helicopters never went to Gardner when he was in charge during the first two years of activation (1970-72). This would have been the period when Bruce found the radial engine, and when we would have been ferrying the Army Mapping Service among the islands. Since Lawrence also stated that he would have piloted any aircraft going as far away as Gardner, it appears that Roger Clapp, the birdman, did NOT visit Gardner during his April 1971 on-site re-evaluation of the effect SAMTEC's operations were having on the bird population. If the Canton engine turns out to be Amelia's, I believe there would be excellent reason to believe it was found either on Hull, Sydney or Phoenix. Bruce's engine could now prove even more helpful to our cause." Bruce Yoho, TIGHAR member 2036E, has replied: Good work, at long last you/we have a contact with Tom Lawrence. We never went anywhere that Tom did not know about, so if he said we never went to Gardner I would have to pretty much believe him. Tom was on the flight line from dawn to dusk every day that I was there, when operations were pending." This presents something of a quandry. We have all this evidence suggesting that the flight ended at Gardner but it now seems very unlikley that Bruces engine came from there. Where does that leave us? Well, for starters, let's remember that the entire Canton Engine affair is based upon anecdote. Bruce's memory says that he recovered an engine that appeared to an R1340 from an island in the Phoenix Group. Tom Lawrence's memory says that they never went to Gardner during the time Bruce was out there. Bruce doesn't have photos of the engine being recovered and Tom hasn't made reference to any contemporaneous records (such as logbooks) to support his recollection. If Tom has logs that would be great. The only way we're going to know anything for sure is to dig up that engine ans ee what it is. If it's something other than AE's engine we can write the whole thing off as another of the many dead ends that are a part of any project like this. if it is AE's engine, and if documents show that it could not have come from Gardner, we've got figure out where it could have come from and go look there. But we can't go shifting our search without having better evidence against Niku than we have for it. LTM, Ric