Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 14:22:57
From: Russ Matthews
Subject: Fossett clues found?

Breaking news on another famous missing aviator reports that documents and clothing bearing the name of Steve Fossett were found by hikers near Mammoth Lakes, CA. Are these clues to his fate, a cruel hoax, or the beginning of a deepening mystery?

Read more here:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/01/fossett.discovery/index.html

No mentions of aircraft wreckage yet.

LTM,
Russ
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 15:15:52
From: Dennis O. McGee
Subject: Re: Fossett clues found?

Could be true. It is only 121 road miles from Minden, NV, to Mammoth Lakes, CA, according to Yahoo maps. That would be well within the range of his Citabria (?) Film at eleven?

LTM,
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 18:30:22
From: Russ Matthews
Subject: Re: Fossett

It's official. The wreckage spotted on the mountainside last evening is that of Steve Fossett's missing aircraft. It was at 10,000 foot elevation with the engine approx 300 feet higher than the fuselage. NTSB investigators say it looks consistent with a "high impact" crash that was not survivable. No trace of human remains have been reported yet.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/02/steve.fossett.search/index.html

LTM,
Russ
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 18:48:04
From: Russ Matthews
Subject: Smithsonian PIPA article

My mom sent me a copy of the September issue of Smithsonian Magazine which features an in depth article on Kiribati and the Phoenix Islands Protected Area (which includes our beloved Niku). It turns out the text is also available online here:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/victory-at-sea.html

LTM,
Russ
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:34:25
From: Ric Gillespie
Subject: Re: Smithsonian PIPA article

>Russ Matthews wrote:
>
>My mom sent me a copy of the September issue of Smithsonian Magazine which
>features an in depth article on Kiribati and the Phoenix Islands Protected Area (which
>includes our beloved Niku). It turns out the text is also available online here:
>
>http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/victory-at-sea.html

It's a nice article but, as we know, there's a bit more to the story. The article says, "Gregory Stone, a marine biologist at the New England Aquarium in Boston, is one of the prime movers behind the Kiribati reserve. He got a call from Rob Barrel, the operator of a luxury dive boat based in Fiji, who was assembling a group of scientists to study the islands in 2000 on behalf of some conservation-minded divers. Stone jumped at the chance to visit what he calls "the last unexplored oceanic coral reef archipelago in the world."

And how did Rob Barrel know about the beauties of the untouched Phoenix Islands? Because in 1997, TIGHAR chartered his luxury dive boat, Nai'a, for an Earhart Project expedition to Nikumaroro. We're very proud of the fact that our investigation of the Earhart disappearance set in motion a chain of events that has led to the establishment of the world's largest marine preserve.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:12:40
From: Mike Piner
Subject: Re: Fossett crash 

It is tragic that Mr Fosset died there in that mountainous area, but he must have come in there at a higher altitude, because there is only one way in (by Mammouth mountain. I looked at in on Google Earth, and some of the pictures especially the one with the wing main spar still relative straight drapped over that cedar ? tree. It makes me think that it hit up higher elevation, sort of pancaked, broke the engine off the main part, fell drapped over the tree. This wreckage just doesn't look like a head on impact. Location approx N 37 40; W 119 08.
LTM
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:42:45
From: Alan Caldwell
Subject: Re: Fossett crash

Mike this IS a curious event. Fossett said he was going to check the salt flats thinking about possibly challenging the land speed record. The oddities there is that Fossett didn't do land stuff except for a dog sled race once. Secondly the flats are east but he crashed way west. He took off at 8:45 and was last sighted SW of Hawthorne at 10:30 heading east away from the mountains. He was due back around 11:00 to 11:30. Yet from his 10:30 position it would have taken him nearly an hour to get to Mammouth. Unless he was heading there to have lunch with someone I don't understand what he was doing in that area.

He had also mentioned a sail plane challenge in France but one would not check out thermals in Nevada to fly in France.

Finally how did his SS card and aviator card and a thousand dollars get nearly a mile away and stay together. An animal wouldn't have done that and a person would have taken the money or turned it all in.

The plane had a service ceiling of just over 14,000 feet The locals said there were thunder storms and low clouds in that area. Fossett wasn't stupid enough to fly in the soup in the mountains. Possibly he had a heart attack or otherwise passed out and the plane meandered to the west and crashed.

Alan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:13:16
From: Ric Gillespie
Subject: Re: Fossett's crash

Alan wrote:

>Fossett wasn't stupid enough to fly in the soup in the mountains.

There was nobody sharper than Paul Mantz's partner, Hollywood stunt pilot Frank Tallman, but Frank flew into a mountain while scud-running in a Piper Aztec.

Hubris is the evil twin of proficiency.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:56:58
From: Tom Doran
Subject: Re: Fossett's crash

>Alan wrote:
>
>>Fossett wasn't stupid enough to fly in the soup in the mountains.
>
>There was nobody sharper than Paul Mantz's partner, Hollywood stunt
>pilot Frank Tallman, but Frank flew into a mountain while scud-
>running in a Piper Aztec.
>
>Hubris is the evil twin of proficiency.

I heard an interview with a local pilot after the wreckage was found. She characterized the air currents around those mountains as chaotic. She said you can be flying normally, making no mistakes and suddenly be tossed a few hundred feet up, down, left or right.

What he was doing in the California mountains is anybody's guess.

Tom Doran, #2796
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:57:26
From: William Webster-Garman
Subject: Re: Fossett's crash

Ric wrote

>Hubris is the evil twin of proficiency.

Whereby it only takes one botch in a lifetime of flying to smack into the side of a mountain.

LTM, who didn't like guessing, much.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:58:06
From: Alan Caldwell
Subject: Re: Fossett's crash

Yes, I suppose I might have been giving Fossett more credit than due. his flight is still peculiar, however. He had about four hours of fuel at around 128 MPH cruise and around the time the plane went in he probably only had an hour fuel remaining. That would be pushing it to get back to the Flying M Airfield. That gives ride to the thought that instead of winding his way through canyons he felt the need to fly directly back over the mountains. Poor decision.

BTW, to reinforce your point, Ric, Mantz himself augered in not being too bright working on "The Flight of the Phoenix."

Alan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:11:34
From: Ric Gillespie
Subject: Re: Fossett's crash

>Mantz himself augered in not being too bright working on "The
>Flight of the Phoenix."

That was a sad case.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:15:11
From: Alan Caldwell
Subject: Fossett's crash

In Vietnam I learned they are called granite clouds.

Alan

>From William Webster-Garman
>
>Ric wrote
>
>>Hubris is the evil twin of proficiency.
>
>Whereby it only takes one botch in a lifetime of flying to smack into
>the side of a mountain.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:25:54
From: William Webster-Garman
Subject: Re: Fossett's crash

Alan wrote,

>BTW, to reinforce your point, Ric, Mantz himself augered in not being
>too bright working on "The Flight of the Phoenix."

Background: Mantz was skimming the ground in a structurally weak, flying movie prop and according to the FAA report (which wouldn't be the very last word but nevertheless might be taken as a hint), he'd been drinking before the flight.

LTM, who thinks CGI has saved some lives in Hollywood
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:39:39
From: William Webster-Garman
Subject: Re: Fossett's crash

A Youtube video of the Mantz tragedy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n82nN_lqn58
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:11:03
From: Marty Moleski
Subject: Re: Mantz's crash

William Webster-Garman wrote:

>Background: Mantz was skimming the ground in a structurally weak, flying
>movie prop and according to the FAA report (which wouldn't be the very
>last word but nevertheless might be taken as a hint), he'd been drinking
>before the flight.

In his defense, he was also supposed to be making it look as though the plane was out of control and just barely getting off the ground.

He succeeded too well.

He didn't misjudge by much--just an inadvertent touchdown on hard ground. It broke the fuselage and that was the end of him.

http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/Mantz-P1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Mantz

Newsreel footage here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n82nN_lqn58

				Marty
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:34:50
From: Dennis O. McGee
Subject: Re: Mantz crash

Holy prop spinner, Batman! I've never seen that video before: A hard landing snaps the empennage behind the wings thus throwing the aircraft out of balance causing it to nose in and cartwheel. I don't think the FAA accident investigators had to work too hard on that one.

LTM, who's never bent an empennage
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:22:05
From: Jim Preston
Subject: Re: Mantz's crash

Cumulo Granite is the Latin name I believe. Also I believe both Mantz & Tallman had a high level of alcohol in the blood. Jimbo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:52:25
From: Rick Boardman
Subject: Re: Fossett's crash

Have been off the www for a while, and a thought occurs re this Fossett tragedy. What we are looking at is a fresher version of the Earhart mystery , is it not? Certainly facts that are different, but many factors that are similar. I was wondering if anyone's thought of at least following this investigation to see if there is anything we could learn in the way of investigative processes. Perhaps it would lead us to some new fresh ideas re Earhart?

Rick Boardman
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:45:51
From: Ric Gillespie
Subject: DNA

With great trepidation, I have included the following paragraph in an article entitled "Archaeological Update" in a new issue of TIGHAR Tracks to be mailed this week.

"Although we didn't realize it at the time, material was collected at the Seven Site during the 2007 Niku V Expedition that contains human DNA. Laboratory tests are presently under way to determine whether the DNA might reasonably be that of the castaway who died there. If those tests are positive we will proceed with tests to determine whether the DNA matches either Earhart or Noonan. Such a determination would, of course, be monumental. At this time it is still only a possibility and nothing to get excited about ... . but as a TIGHAR member and supporter you're entitled to know the status of the work you make possible and share both the exhilaration and the angst of the investigative process."

I am well aware that I can say it's nothing to get excited about until I'm blue in the face and people will still get excited about the possibility of a DNA match. Mentioning this at all is risky because if the material turns out to be from someone other than Earhart or Noonan it could create the erroneous impression that it would invalidate all the other compelling but less individually conclusive pieces of evidence we've found at the Seven Site. On the other hand, if this does turn out to be the long-sought smoking gun it might look suspicious if we sprung it on everyone without ever having acknowledged that we had anything that even had that potential.

Indeed, when we headed home at the end of Niku V we knew we hadn't found human teeth or bone as we had hoped and we did not think we had recovered anything with DNA potential. That was a big disappointment and I'll admit that I was pretty bummed. But, under the direction of Dr. Tom King, the archaeological protocols for the work at the Seven Site called for the collection of anything that was anomalous. Don't worry about whether or not you know what it is. If it's at all unusual, flag it, record its location and depth, and bag it. We'll try to figure out what it is later.

That system produces lots of red herrings - bits of coral that look like teeth, dried leaves that look like leather, mold that looks like degraded cloth, etc. In the weeks and months following our return we started working through the hundreds of items and samples collected; numbering, cataloging, testing, and to whatever degree possible, identifying. Many bags ended up in the "never mind" pile, in some cases after several hundred dollars worth of laboratory tests (ouch!). Some we haven't even gotten to yet. Some artifacts and materials still have us completely baffled despite expensive analysis (damn!). Others have turned out more conclusively identifiable and supportive of our hypothesis than we ever expected (yes!).

The material that has yielded human DNA was one of those "we have no idea what this stuff is but we'll collect it anyway" cases. Checking it for possible DNA was just a hunch and even after we learned there was DNA there we were concerned that it might be contamination from being handled by our own team. Further tests have now greatly lessened that possibility. There are more tests that need to be completed and more hurdles to clear before we'll be ready to see if it's worth comparing to Earhart's or Noonan's DNA. If we get that far and if there is an apparent match, the whole process will need to be duplicated by a second independent laboratory before we'd be able to make any kind of announcement.

In the meantime, the work is expensive and we need help paying for it. We're very much aware that these are tough times for everyone but Jim Thompson of GIS Select Services has generously made a $1,000 challenge grant. He'll match your contributions up to that total if you contribute toward the Earhart Project DNA Fund between now and October 31st. As always, you can send a check to

TIGHAR, 2812 Fawkes Drive, Wilmington, DE 19808

or you can use your credit card to make a contribution via the secure TIGHAR website at

https://www.tighar.org/cardform.html

or you can donate using Paypal at

http://www.tighar.org/donate.html

or if we already have your credit card information just tell us to hit your card for whatever contribution you care to make.

Please keep this research going forward by helping us meet the GIS Select Services challenge grant.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:26:10
From: Ted Campbell
Subject: Re: DNA

Very interesting!

Can you educate us a bit on DNA?

Is the lab able to determine that it is indeed human DNA and not that of the material used in the manufacture of the object - I assume we are taking about the makeup?

It's my understanding that all living things have a DNA base; plant and animals. I seem to also recall that AE has a living relative that could be used (if willing) to get a match but what about FN?

Are there any items e.g. combs, brushes, etc. at Perdue that could be tested for AE's DNA?

Finally, have Pat charge my credit card $50 to go toward additional testing. Let me know if I need to send the card info under separate cover.

Ted Campbell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 14:08:53
From: Ric Gillespie
Subject: Re: DNA

Ted Campbell asks:

>Can you educate us a bit on DNA?

I'm just learning myself but I'm happy to share what little I know.

>Is the lab able to determine that it is indeed human DNA and not
>that of the material used in the manufacture of the object - I
>assume we are taking about the makeup?

It is confirmed to be human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). We are not talking about the makeup, although that too might have DNA. We haven't checked yet. The mtDNA that has been extracted is from organic material.

>It's my understanding that all living things have a DNA base; plant
>and animals. I seem to also recall that AE has a living relative
>that could be used (if willing) to get a match but what about FN?

Mitochondrial DNA is passed in the female line. Both AE and FN have
living relatives in the female line.

>Are there any items e.g. combs, brushes, etc. at Perdue that could
>be tested for AE's DNA?

Not that I know of, but we don't need them.

>Finally, have Pat charge my credit card $50 to go toward additional
>testing. Let me know if I need to send the card info under
>separate cover.

Thanks Ted. You're the first. Only $950 more to go. Who's next?

Ric
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:26:28
From: Kerry Tiller
Subject: Re: DNA

Ric, let's hope (or pray if you are into that sort of thing) that the gun smokes this time. This is a bad time to be asking me for money, but I can at least do $50. Hit whatever the latest card was I used to pay my dues late with. Or e-mail me for the info again. It sounds like if everything goes well DNA testing wise and we find out it most likely is NOT AE or FN we need to try and answer the question who is the real castaway?

Kerry Tiller
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:28:08
From: Tim Smith
Subject: Re: DNA

I just donated $50 through PayPal. Its a quick & easy way and I urge others who can to  do likewise.

LTM (who has gotten over fear of internet transactions)
Tim Smith 1142 CE
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:28:52
From: Ron Dawson
Subject: Re: DNA

Put me down for $50. Will send in the mail.

Ron Dawson
2126
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:59:24
From: Mike Piner
Subject: Re: DNA

This is fabulous news, whatever way it turns out. Put me down for $50 , I'm putting it in the mail this morning.
LTM
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:50:50
From: Jerry Hamilton
Subject: Re: DNA

$100 should have arrived via Paypal. May the winds of fortune be favorable.

blue skies, JHam

******************************

Many thanks, Jerry, and to all of the rest of you who have contributed to this challenge. Still about $500 left to go....

Pat
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:26:04
From: David Jeane
Subject: Re: DNA

As a long-time archeologist I understand all too well about this stuff so here in my $50.00. Pat should have my Visa

David R. Jeane
Member #2498

Mother is rubbing her hands in anticipation.....
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:27:41
From: Ned Johnston
Subject: Re: DNA

I'll contribute $50 for the DNA testing. Let me know if you do not have current credit card info for me.

LTM,
--Ned Johnston
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:25:18
From: Lawrence Glazer
Subject: Re: DNA

Here's my $50; you have my credit card number. Good hunting!

Lawrence Glazer, member # 2424
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:29:35
From: Simon Ellwood
Subject: Re: DNA and Paypal

You do PayPal now? What's the address - I'll send you $50

Regards
Simon Ellwood

***********************************

The easiest way is to go to the TIGHAR home page at www.tighar.org, and scroll down to the link that says "To make a donation to TIGHAR using PAYPAL, click HERE." That will take you directly to the right place. Our address for PayPal is tighar@tighar.org.

Thanks, everybody!

Pat
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 18:59:26
From: Rick Jones
Subject: Re: DNA

A check for $50 is in the mail
Rick J
*******************

Many thanks, Rick.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:32:27
From: Alfred Hendrickson
Subject: Tippets website

TIGHAR members may be interested in looking at the following website:

www.johntippets.com

LTM,

Alfred Hendrickson #2583
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:16:31
From: Andrew McKenna
Subject: Re: Gillam crash

>None can match the Gillam crash survivors for sheer heroism in the
>face of impossible odds. Their courage was inspiring!
>
>Ric Gillespie, Executive Director, The International Group for
>Historic Aircraft Recovery

Who is that book reviewer?

Speaking of inspired tales of survival, I just got finished reading In The Heart of the Sea by Nathaniel Philbrick about the survivors of the Nantucket whale ship Essex which was sunk when rammed by an enraged sperm whale approximately 1000 miles west of the Galapagos in the fall of 1820. Fearing cannibals in the islands to the west, the crew of 20 chose to sail south in their three hastily converted open whale boats and then catch the trade winds east to South America. Two of the three boats made it, sailing some 5000+ miles over 90 days with little food or water and arriving at Juan Fernandez Island off the coast of Chile. Starvation drove them to the point of becoming cannibals themselves and eating several of their own boat mates. Eight survived out of twenty. Talk about impossible odds... Quite a read. I recommend it, but not on an empty stomach.

One part of their story I found interesting with regards to our subject of interest. They happened across Henderson Island, Lat 24 S, Long 124 W - some 1500 miles south of where the ship sank and not far from Pitcarin island (if they'd only known!). 3 of the crew elected to remain behind and take their chances marooned on the island rather than sail on. During their 5 month stay on Henderson they discovered a cave with the remains of 8 castaways, which I think points out that travelers and castaways across the Pacific may have been more common than we imagine today. Somebody, or at least two people, had to get to Easter Island somehow to start that civilization. No sextant boxes though.

From the book "A medical examination performed on the bones in 1996 [apparently by a US survey party] revealed that they were of Caucasian origin, which suggests that these unidentified people, like the Essex Crew, had been shipwreck survivors. The examination also revealed that one of the skeletons had belonged to a child between three and five years old. All eight people had died of dehydration."

doing a little google searching, I find

http://library.puc.edu/pitcairn/pitcairn/govt-history15.shtml

Which describes the re-discovery of 8 skeletons in a cave by Pitcairn islanders who came to visit in 1851

and

http://www.winthrop.dk/skeletons.html

which discusses Henderson Island and the skeletons that have been found there. Apparently 6 skeletons were found in a cave in 1956. There seems to be some confusion as to whether or not these 6 are the same 8 as described in 1820 or 1851, and one wonders about the condition of bones that are at least 136 years old, and whether or not the examination in 1966 was of the 1820 bones, or some more recent castaway. Some hair was found and examined and while polynesian couldn't be ruled out, the hair was suspected to be caucasian. The Consulting Physician to the Colonial Office, Sir Richard Hawes, is quoted as saying he suspects the skeletons had been in the cave "probably in excess of ten years".

In any case, it is interesting to read about castaways being found on Pacific islands.

Food for thought, so to speak.

amck
Andrew McKenna
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:08:02
From: Tom King
Subject: Re: Gillam crash

Besides bringing back pleasant memories of reading In the Heart of the Sea aboard Nai'a, glancing nervously over the rail from time to time in case of whales, this exchange reminds me that we really ought to get TIGHAR's report on the Gillam crash site up on the web, together with the one on the Kellogg, Idaho crash and the Japanese aircraft on Yap, and the paper on the recording methodology used on those projects and the P-38. TIGHAR's made some contributions to the documentation of historic wreck sites that ought to be made available to the public. I know, one more thing to do, but perhaps as part of the reworking of the website.....
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:01:01
From: Mike Piner
Subject: Re: Gillam crash

Dr King what do we do in the way of press releases from time to time. We as members keep current by way of the forum, but not everyone goes to the forum to see what Tighar is doing. I did not know of Tighar until early 2007, when I stumbled on it while surfing
(the internet of course).
LTM
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:02:08
From: Marty Moleski
Subject: Re: Gillam crash 

>From Andrew McKenna
>
>Speaking of inspired tales of survival, I just got finished reading
>In The Heart of the Sea by Nathaniel Philbrick about the survivors
>of the Nantucket whale ship Essex which was sunk when rammed by an
>enraged sperm whale approximately 1000 miles west of the Galapagos
>in the fall of 1820. ...

That's the real story behind Moby Dick. The whale rammed the boat several times and caused it to sink.

>Fearing cannibals in the islands to the west, the crew of 20
>chose to sail south in their three hastily converted open whale
>boats and then catch the trade winds east to South America.

1. The Cannibal Islands have since been renamed "Fiji." Had the men sailed west instead of east, the prevailing winds would have brought them to Fiji in a short time. There they would have found a newly-built Methodist Church in Suva.

2. The survivors resorted to anthropophagy in order to survive; in one boat, a young man was murdered to provide food for the other three (after drawing lots to decide who would die and who would do the killing).

				Marty
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:14:14
From: Tom King
Subject: Re: Gillam crash

For Mike Piner

Press releases are one of the many, many, many things that Ric and Pat do. We probably ought to have a better system for blowing the organization's horn; perhaps this is something that can be developed once the new TIGHAR Institute is up and running.

LTM (who basks in publicity)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:12:16
From: Dan Postellon
Subject: Re: Gillam crash

Actually, Henderson has come up before. As far as I can remember, the hair and skeletons were not measured or examined professionally. The hair was thought to be Caucasian because it was reddish. There is speculation that hair on mummified remains can turn reddish with age, due to deterioration of melanin pigments. Similar comments have been made about central Asian graves, one of which had a high status woman, dressed in black and buried in a tall conical hat with a brim! Happy Halloween!
Dan Postellon
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:35:28
From: Dan Postellon
Subject: Re: Gillam crash

Henderson Island skeleton page: http://www.winthrop.dk/skeletons.html
Academic reference:
Henderson Island crania and their implication of Southeast Polynesian
prehistory.
Journal of the Polynesian Society, 2002