Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:41:51
From: Tom Doran
Subject: Recovering old aircraft

It's been quiet around here for awhile.

I had a general question about recovering historic aircraft. Because my dad worked on them in the Navy, I've had an interest in the PBM seaplane which was the backbone of the US Navy's seaplane fleet during WWII and until the mid fifties.

I ran across the reference below to a PBM "in great shape" at the bottom of a lagoon at Kwajalein. The depth is 150 feet. I wonder what it would take to recover that aircraft, other than a few million dollars. Don't know that there is any particular reason to recover it.

There is only one PBM still existing, of the 1366 produced. It's at the museum at Pima. All others were scrapped or simply abandoned.

Tom Doran, #2796

http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/martin/pbm-1.htm

Bill McClendon
Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands, OTH I'm a diver in Kwajalein, Marshall Islands. Yesterday, a dive buddy and myself dived to see a PBM at the bottom of the Kwajalein Lagoon. It rests at about 150 feet under the water. It looks like it is in great shape. Unknown why it is here. Could have been shot down or dumped after the war.
04/16/2001 @ 16:36 [ref: 2094]

CDR John Bradford, USN(ret), CO
The PBM sighted by the Kwajalein diver was one I flew a bit in the mid-50s. On a flight to Ponape Island it experienced a hard water landing which damaged the right rudder and engine mounts. Emergency repairs were done there and the bird was flown back to Kwajalein where it was determined that the main wing spar had been cracked. The plane was stricken and disposed-of in the lagoon. Our second PBM-5A hit a coral head at the island of Kusai and sunk there.
11/18/2004 @ 18:15 [ref: 8652]
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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:11:22
From: Ric Gillespie
Subject: Re: Recovery old aircraft

Tom Doran wrote:

>I ran across the reference below to a PBM "in great shape" at the
>bottom of a lagoon at Kwajalein. The depth is 150 feet. I wonder
>what it would take to recover that aircraft, other than a few
>million dollars. Don't know that there is any particular reason to
>recover it.

We're aware of the PBM at Kwaj. Other than a few million dollars you'd need:

- Permission from the Republic of the Marshall Islands.
- Permission from the U.S. Navy.
- The U.S. Navy would not give permission unless the aircraft was going to be properly conserved (not "restored").
- To properly conserve the aircraft you'd need a large museum facility, trained conservators, and another few million dollars.

I think it's safe to say that the PBM isn't going anywhere right away. A more logistically and economically realistic recovery/ conservation project is the TBD Devastator in Jaluit lagoon. We've been working on that with the Marshalls government and the Navy for five years now and we're still probably a couple of years from recovering the aircraft.

Doing it right takes time.

Ric
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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:12:17
From: Tim Smith
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

Aircraft in the ocean pose a difficult problem because of the nature of the interaction of salt water and aluminium. The elemental Al becomes a salt, AlCl, aluminum chloride. When the aircraft is pulled into the air, the AlCl dries and becomes dust. How much original Al is left depends on salinity, temperature, time below, etc.

So, besides the millions to mount a remote recovery, you need large tanks to resubmerge the pieces or whole AC until you figure out how to deal with the salts issue.

Tim Smith 1142CE
former Alaska public servant
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:37:32
From: Matthew Victor
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

>it experienced a hard water
>landing which

Which means? What actually happened to effect the "hard" water landing? Training flight, stretching the "envelope", lack of surface textural cues of the water surface (fog, smooth surface, etc..)? I dropped a Cessna 207 really hard into a lake in beautiful glass smooth water in morning mist....

The rear fuse was buckled and the outboard float fittings cracked not to mention the warm wet spot in my seat and the dust settling in the cabin!
;-).
matthew
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:22:34
From: Tom Doran
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

>From Matthew Victor
>
>>it experienced a hard water landing which
>
>Which means? What actually happened to effect the "hard" water
>landing?

Considering that the guy was recalling an event 50 years in his past, it's hard to know exactly. Maybe he was taking evasive action to avoid a boatload of children. Maybe he was landing in ten foot seas with a 30 knot crosswind, or maybe he had a hangover. The less detail in a military after action report, the more I'd suspect an element of CYA.

Although he reports a cracked wing spar, which sounds serious to a non-aviator like me, he took off and landed the craft without problems.

I was under the impression that currently, a damaged wing would be replaced. Not true? I read another account from a Coast Guard LT of an operation in the fifties in which his ship took "several" de-engined PBM's and dumped them in the ocean off Panama. That sounds like a waste of good aluminum, if nothing else.

It may be that the PBM's were considered clunkers, not worth repairing, by the fifties, since they were being replaced by the P5M beginning in 1951. By 1955 the P5M patrol squadrons were retiring the P5M's in favor of the P2V, a land based aircraft.

Tom Doran, #2796
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:23:24
From: Tom Doran
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

>From Ric
>
>We're aware of the PBM at Kwaj.

Does that mean there is a roster somewhere of potentially recoverable aircraft?

You also said, "Doing it right takes time." A couple of groups went to Greenland and apparently didn't. Wonder whether Discover or National Geographic magazines would be interested in an article along the lines of, "This is what you face and what you need to think about when recovering old aircraft."

I'd read it.

Tom Doran, #2796
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:23:49
From: Tom King
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

>Doing it right takes time.

And lots and lots of money.

LTM (who doesn't have any)

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:24:39
From: Mike Piner
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

>>it experienced a hard water
>>landing which
>
>Which means? What actually happened to effect the "hard" water landing?
>Training flight, stretching the "envelope", lack of surface textural
>cues of the water surface (fog, smooth surface, etc..)?
>I dropped a Cessna 207 really hard into a lake in beautiful glass
>Smooth water in morning mist....

Matthew; so tell us why you dropped your Cessna 207.

LTM who never dropped anything
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:14:06
From: Ric Gillespie
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

I wrote:

>We're aware of the PBM at Kwaj.

Tom Doran wrote

>Does that mean there is a roster somewhere of potentially
>recoverable aircraft?

No. It means we've spent a lot of time in the Marshalls. There is no roster of recoverable aircraft.

>You also said, "Doing it right takes time." A couple of groups went
>to Greenland and apparently didn't. Wonder whether Discover or
>National Geographic magazines would be interested in an article
>along the lines of, "This is what you face and what you need to
>think about when recovering old aircraft."

There does need to be an article - probably several articles - about the ethics and responsibilities involved in recovering historic aircraft, but magazines aren't interested in that sort of thing.

Ric
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:54:19
From: Tom Doran
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

Ric wrote

>but magazines aren't interested in that sort of thing

The TIGHAR website probably would be. Along with a description of, "Here is what a recovery often faces," it might include a statement of purpose and principles of TIGHAR.

Tom Doran, #2796
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:59:56
From: Ric Gillespie
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

>Ric wrote
>
>>but magazines aren't interested in that sort of thing
>
>Tom Doran wrote:
>
>The TIGHAR website probably would be. Along with a description of,
>"Here is what a recovery often faces," it might include a statement
>of purpose and principles of TIGHAR.

That's a good suggestion Tom. I should do that.

Ric
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:20:09
From: Tom King
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

You might also take a look at http://marshall.csu.edu.au/MJHSS/
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:13:20
From: Dennis McGee
Subject: Courses and expeditions

Tom Doran said: "The TIGHAR website probably would be. Along with a description of, "Here is what a recovery often faces," it might include a statement of purpose and principles of TIGHAR."

Better yet, Tom, take the TIGHAR's Aviation Archeology course http:// www.tighar.org/Projects/Histpres/courses/MD2005/MDcourse2005.htm or join one of the other smaller expeditions when time and finances are available. You'll get first-hand experieince in everything it takes to put together one of these "rescues" or trips. Speaking from personal experience both are well worthwhile. And as a special bonus when you successfully complete one of the above you get to add a nifty and much sought-after "C" or/or "E" after your signature when you post on this forum. Grown men will smile in admiration and women will swoon in anticipation.

LTM, who misses swooning and swooners
Dennis O. McGee #0149CE
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:09:04
From: Reed Riddle
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

Except, of course, that the course page noted is from the course in 2005. Is there going to be another one soon?

					Reed
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:25:09
From: Ric Gillespie
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

Reed Riddle asked:

>Except, of course, that the course page noted is from the course in
>2005. Is there going to be another one soon?

We have a couple of sites we could use. The problem is the time it takes to organize a course in a remote location. Our two primary instructors are tied up in school and other work, and I'm buried in the Earhart Project, Maid of Harlech and Devastator projects.

We have some long-term plans that should make it possible for us to run courses on a regular basis but it will take a few years to put together. Until then, the best I can say is that we'll try to do a course sometime next year.

Ric
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:26:40
From: Hilary Olson
Subject: Re: Recovering old aircraft

Maybe if we add a element of ,Global Warming Effects on Historical sunken aircraft to be recovered. Then maybe the magazines would be interested.
Hilary
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Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 13:12:20
From: Mike Piner
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

Ric replied to Reed Riddle in part:

>We have some long-term plans that should make it possible for us to
>run courses on a regular basis but it will take a few years to put
>together. Until then, the best I can say is that we'll try to do a
>course sometime next year.

Is it possible to put together an on line course. Such courses use video of the Person lecturing, and stills to exhibits, graphs ect. You must have material from the course that would be pertinent still. Mike
LTM
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Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 13:57:28
From: Peter Boor
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

All this makes me think of the Teaching Company, whose courses I have found to be outstanding. I wonder if they would entertain a course on Aviation Archeology? It would be lots of work, but I use them so I don't have to do the lesson planning. I suspect it is income for the lecturers too - p.
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 11:21:03
From: Tom King
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

I'm very bullish on the Teaching Company, too, but I have a hunch it would be a serious uphill struggle to get them to take on a course (a) not emanating from an academic and (b) on as exotic a subject as aviation archaeology.

The idea of a TIGHAR-offered online course, though, I think has a lot of merit. I've done a couple of on-line classes dealing with historic preservation, and though I don't think mine have been very good, I think the potential is intriguing.

LTM (who prefers learning in the comfort of her home)
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 11:33:34
From: Ric Gillespie
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

Tom King wrote,

>The idea of a TIGHAR-offered online course, though, I think has a
>lot of merit.


I'm willing to consider doing an on-line course but it would have to:

A. Actually teach something worth knowing.
B. Be something could charge for.
C. Deliver value for value.

Let's do a little market research. I'd be interested to hear from forum subscribers what they feel TIGHAR might be able teach on-line that would be worth paying for.


Ric
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 12:39:58
From: Dennis McGee
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

Ric said: "Let's do a little market research. I'd be interested to hear from forum subscribers what they feel TIGHAR might be able teach on-line that would be worth paying for."

Personally, I prefer the classroom setting. On-line stuff is boring, IMHO, and seldom allows for questions and discussions. Plus they don't really reflect what knowledge the student has acquired and/ or retains because the testing is multiple-choice or T/F, which are easier to grade than essay questions or demonstrations of practical knowledge. Ideally the TIGHAR model would included both classrooms and field work, as TIGHAR has done in the past.

LTM, a straight C student
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 12:54:30
From: Reed Riddle
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

The advantage of the online class would be to cover all of the introductory material, so everyone understood terminology. It should also have examples of how TIGHAR has done this in the past, through lectures and video of techniques used in the field. In many ways, it should be set up so everyone who shows up for the practical course already understands the basics, so then the practical course becomes a matter of applying those things to a real world situation.

It also should make the practical course focus more on doing the work in the field, and might save some time up for what is required on that. A week long course can be a lot of time investment for some people who might be interested, but if the "classroom" end of it can be take care of online, then perhaps three days of working in the dirt would be all that is required for the part where everyone comes together. That might also make it easier to have the practical courses more often than once every three years. :)

In this case, I don't think the tests have to be multiple choice. It is likely a very small group that will be doing this, which means that the tests can still be essays or whatever (presuming the instructor has the time to deal with it). This doesn't have to work strictly like a college introductory online course...anyone taking this should be interested and responsible enough not to require the prompting a college freshman needs. ;)

					Reed
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 14:31:26
From: Alan Caldwell
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

How could I possibly add to this. I agree whole heartedly, Dennis. I studied archeology in Kansas at Washburn University. My professor was also the Chief Archeologist for the Kansas State Historical Society. He taught one class a year and the rest of the time he was in the field. There is no way an online course could have measured up to that.

Alan

>From Dennis McGee
>
>Ric said: "Let's do a little market research. I'd be interested to
>hear from forum subscribers what they feel TIGHAR might be able teach
>on-line that would be worth paying for."
>
>Personally, I prefer the classroom setting. On-line stuff is
>boring, IMHO, and seldom allows for questions and discussions. Plus
>they don't really reflect what knowledge the student has acquired and/
>or retains because the testing is multiple-choice or T/F, which are
>easier to grade than essay questions or demonstrations of practical
>knowledge.
>
>Ideally the TIGHAR model would included both classrooms and field
>work, as TIGHAR has done in the past.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 19:45:34
From: Tom King
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

>There is no way an online course could have measured up to that.

Well, I think an online course has to be a totally different kettle of fish from a stand up and teach-em course, with somewhat different goals and a VERY different format. In our case, it obviously wouldn't substitute for hands-on work with artifacts or for fieldwork, but it could give people a good overview of principles, basic methods, examples of wreck site-types, etc.; and an organized on-line discussion group could be almost as good as a classroom discussion.

TK
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 21:20:03
From: Karen Hoy
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

Tom, have you seen the following link from about.com?:

http://archaeology.about.com/library/weekly/aa092699.htm

This concerns a university archaeology class with an online component and a field work component. By the time the students started their field work in Turkey, they had already been communicating for some time online.

I am in favor of online education--most of my Master's Degree was completed online. It might be an interesting addition to field schools, so we could all learn the basics before reaching the field.

A really ambitious project might be educational software. Some current university archaeology programs (the one I was in) are weak in areas like cultural resource management and very few (that I know of) even mention Aviation Archaeology.

Would TIGHAR be interested in putting together a DVD-ROM Aviation Archaelogy course? I don't know much about either education or software, but one of the reasons I didn't stay in my Anthropology/Archaeology program was the sheer boredom factor of the material as it was presented. Different viewpoints and materials would have been a big help.
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 21:20:43
From: Mike Piner
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

All of the preceeding comments are appropriate. I currently teach on line math courses.We have a textbook. The Aviation Archaeology course would neen a Book to study, which would take time to develope. This would be the facts involved, the terminology used, and the methodogy already employed. The point made about field work was very valid, and could be accomplished in different times as that became available. We could develope this in house, and members use and promote this for our own edification, and who knows this my develope into a real sourse of revenue to do the project that we have and may find in the future. Not highlighting what others have contributed in the previous posts, in no way minimises the posts from Peter Boor, Dr King, Ric, Dennis, McGee. Reed Riddle, Alan Caldwell, and Hillary Olsen.
LTM
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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 12:27:59
From: Dennis McGee
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

My bias against an on-line course also includes a component that takes into consideration the work needed to put it together. Right now I suspect Ric and Pat have all the work they need and adding an on-line Aviation Archeology course would, IMHO, be asking too much of them.

I know how much time and effort it took for me to build an 'Introduction to World War II ' course for the near-by community college and -- I'm guessing here -- it would take at least equal amount of time to reconfigure that course for on-line study. The idea of having a primer course (i.e. terminology, basic techniques, regulations etc.) as part of the TIGHAR web site is an attractive concept but still someone would have to put it together. Unless there is a web-savvy person out there willing to take on this project, I think asking Ric and Pat to do more is an unreasonable request.

From personal experieince I know both Ric and Pat thrive on only 2-3 hours of sleep a night, but they still need to have some time to take care of their horses.

LTM, who "ponies-up" what she can
Dennis O. McGee #1049EC

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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 12:43:09
From: Alan Caldwell
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

>Secondly, aren't we trying to reinvent the wheel? There are already
>on line aviation archeology courses.

To me the beauty of the existing course would be to be with fellow TIGHAR members and challenge Ric. Ooops! Just kidding. Seriously, since Ric has been at this a long time and we KNOW his credentials a live class makes far more sense to me.

Now if someone wants to go on line and learn terminology and general basic techniques it might be of value to come to the live class a bit more conversant with the subject. I have my doubts about that, however.

Alan
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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:30:04
From: Tom Doran
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

>From Alan Caldwell
>
>Secondly, aren't we trying to reinvent the wheel? There are already
>on line aviation archeology courses.

Where is such a course located?

The perspective which notes the huge amount of work, seems correct.

Ric's question included the comment, "that people would pay for." That would be a problem. There might be a couple of dozen people in the world who would be interested in such a course in the next year. You'd have to charge $1000 to pay for the actual work involved in presenting the course. Anything more than 50 or 100 bucks would severely limit the pool of clients.

An article of a thousand words or so could fairly summarize the topic. A bibliography "for further reading," could be helpful in searching out more detail. It could point to books or websites focusing on things like the sociology of Micronesia in the 1930's, or the results on aluminum of long exposures to salt water.

Tom Doran, #2796
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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:38:01
From: William Webster-Garman
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

Developing a semester-length, university-credit-level online course in aviation archaeology could easily cost $100,000 or more, no way to skirt that. A basic, slick training course, with Ric and Tom donating their time and knowledge of best practices to make video lectures for free, could be worked up for maybe $40,000. This stuff ain't cheap. (Ric and Pat know already this).
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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:28:48
From: Alan Caldwell
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions

Tom, I Googled and got 96 hits.

Alan

>From Tom Doran
>
>>From Alan Caldwell
>>
>>Secondly, aren't we trying to reinvent the wheel? There are already
>>on line aviation archeology courses.
>
>Where is such a course located?
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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:07:50
From: Tom King
Subject: Re: courses and expeditions

It ought to be noted that aviation archaeology is a completely unregulated "discipline," on whose methods and principles there's no necessary agreement. So what constitutes an "aviation archaeology" class to one group of enthusiasts may be very different from what another thinks such a class should entail.

LTM (a classy lady)
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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:53:21
From: William Webster-Garman
Subject: Re: Courses and expeditions 

I think TIGHAR could do much towards setting the standards and may one day be credited with having done, but either way, I'd wonder if developing online coursework of any kind would be the most helpful way to spend TIGHAR's resources (much of which are its people).

LTM, who always thought that concrete patch on the end of Gallagher's grave was very puzzling, only to learn lately that, at the request of his mum, they took his remains to Tarawa when the island was evacuated 45 years ago (and took the plaque off, too).

>From Tom King
>
>It ought to be noted that aviation archaeology is a completely
>unregulated "discipline," on whose methods and principles there's
>no necessary agreement. So what constitutes an "aviation
>archaeology" class to one group of enthusiasts may be very
>different from what another thinks such a class should entail.
>LTM (a classy lady)