Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:49:14
From:         Scott White
Subject:      Re: "Coprolite" and lanolin bottle

Just a wild guess - could the "coprolite" be an old, badly oxidized
battery?

http://acswebcontent.acs.org/landmarks/drycell/columbia.html

Best,
-SW
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:49:42
From:         Larry Turner
Subject:      Re: Coprolite?

       What about a 1937 Ever Ready Dry Cell ?

http://www.thebakken.org/artifacts/database/artifact.asp?
type=category&category=B1%2E1%2E6&offset=%2D1&id=1377
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:50:22
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Niku V Reports

For Karen Hoy

Ric can speak with more authority than I on the zipper, since he has
it in hand (as it were), but I'd call it pretty light-weight.
There's an image at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/NikuV/
Analysis_and_Reports/Metal_and_Glass/NikuVanalysisMG.htm

Things to do in NYC?  How about following up on the Schiaparelli
connection?  I see her company has offices there; see http://
www.schiaparelli.com/scarf2.htm.  Perhaps they can point us toward a
collection of period clothes whose zippers we could examine.

LTM (who wishes all her children a very happy and productive '08)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:50:50
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Other necessities

For Ron Bright

Thanks for the list, Ron.  Let's see....

<<walking boots (soles)>>  Well, those we (and Gallagher) may have.

<<waterproof match box>>  I wonder what it would have been made
of.

<<knife and ax>>  Don't know how we'd distinguish these from
colonist material.

<<canteen>>  I wonder what kind.

<<orange kite>> Unlikely to survive

<< tomato juice can (Beachnut)>>  Haven't found one that's been
recognized.

<< thermos bottle>>  Nope

<<sun glasses>>  We've found glasses, but in the village, where
there are many possible sources.

<< ice pick>>  Nope

<<emergency water light cannister (about 8")>>  I'm trying to
imagine what that would look like.

<<smelling salts bottle>>  Nothing identified as such.

The big problem, of course, is that most of these are pretty common
items, so finding one wouldn't really "prove" anything.  But it's an
interesting list, anyhow.

LTM (who lists to starboard)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:51:25
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: DNA?

For Ron Bright

> For a look at the  "bare essentials" that AE took along, see page 116
> of "Women Aloft" for a  photo of AEs powder compact which was a
> "priority accessory" on  all her flights. Looks like a 3 bty4 metal
> compact with various applicators

VERY interesting.  I don't have "Women Aloft;" Ric, is it in the
TIGHAR Central Library?

LTM (who knows her priorities)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:51:58
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Coprolite?

For Mike Piner

> Dr King what about some approx dimensions?  Like length,
> and diameter of the ferrous part, and where was the charcoal,
> (diameter?). Flashlight?  shotgun shell?

Mike, the thing is in several pieces, somewhat irregular in size and
shape except they're sort of roughly cylindrical, each maybe half an
inch to an inch long, 1/4 to 3/8 inch thick.  Don't know how thick
the "core" is; it's only been reported by the coprolite specialist
who took one fragment apart, and the whole collection is currently
with the DNA lab.  The charcoal is in flecks in the material
surrounding the "core."  Since the thing was lying next to a fire,
there's an obvious external source for the charcoal, but this doesn't
mean that IS the source.

I've seen flashlight batteries in archaeological contexts, and they
haven't looked anything like this item.  Ditto with shotgun shells.
The flare idea is the first one that's made sense to me, but I'm
definitely grasping at straws.

LTM (who says straws are better than some things one might grasp,
under the circumstances).
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:52:22
From:         Rick Jones
Subject:      Re: Zippers

For Karen Hoy

Here is a link to the Purdue photo showing AE's zipper, if it will
help you with your search effort.

LTM
Rick J

http://tinyurl.com/2m6pbr
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:02:19
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: DNA?

Tom King asked:

> I don't have "Women Aloft;" Ric, is it in the TIGHAR Central Library?

No, but I've ordered a copy.

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:02:42
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Coprolite?

For Larry Turner and others:

I guess a battery is a possibility.  Those I've seen in
archaeological situations (i.e. found in the ground) have been a lot
solider, more rock-like, and relatively heavy, but no doubt there are
lots of environmental and other variables that affect the way a
battery would be transformed over the years.

Once it's safe to do so (i.e. once examination for DNA is complete),
we'll clearly need to get a good physical and chemical analysis of
the thing, which should give us an answer.

LTM (who finds the discussion electrifying)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:12:57
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: DNA?

Rick Jones asked,

> Has Dr. Kar Burns published any additional findings from the taphonomy
> experiment?

Not yet.  Kar was very busy teaching in Bogota, Colombia and then,
tragically, her husband died suddenly and unexpectedly.  Needless to
say, getting the results of the taphonomy experiment written up will
have to wait a bit.

> Do we know what the crabs did with the bones?  Eaten? Buried?
> How deep? What radius from the site, generally?  Was anything
> discovered to give us hope of finding bones from the original site?

I can tell you this much.  Some bones were found several meters
away.  Others weren't found at all.   We don't know what happened to
them.  No bones were known to be buried or carried down into burrows,
and no bones were known to be eaten up.

What we did discover - and it's an important discovery - is that
crabs do not work along on a carcass until everything is gone.  It
seems that when a critter dies on Niku, it's a race between the sun
and the scavengers.  Once the remains are so dried out that they no
longer contain any appreciable degree of moisture, the crabs lose
interest.  Therefore, the presence of a partial castaway skeleton in
1940 does not necessarily mean that the person died within a matter
of months from the time of discovery.

> In the Niku V CD there was a picture of a small colored glass bottle I would
> like to see in more detail.  Is there another photo of the pieces which
> include the logo on the bottom? Maybe other views of the remaining other
> pieces?

I think you're talking about the green glass bottle.  I've been doing
quite a bit of work with it, jigsaw-puzzling it back together as
much as possible (which is pretty tricky given that much of it is
melted).  We'll publish photos in the next TIGHAR Tracks (coming
soon) and also post them on the website.

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:13:35
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Cosmetics

Ted Campbell wrote,

> Ric, how is TIGHAR's relations with the Purdue AE collection people?
>
> I noticed that they (Purdue) had a cosmetic's case that belonged to
> AE.  I wonder if the contents match that of what you recently
> reported finding on Niku.

Purdue has been very cooperative in the past, but then we've never
before asked to take a piece of something from the collection.  All
we need is a sample the size of a pin head, so I'm hoping they'll be
okay with that.

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:22:49
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Niku V reports

> Are we going to see additional reports/analysis of the objects
> found on the web site?
>
> Seems like there was more stuff returned from Niku V than I
> originally thought.  Also, there is testing/analysis going on that
> would present some interesting reading, and who knows, a "I have
> one of those" moments.

Yes, the more we learn about the stuff we brought back, the more
interesting it gets.  Finding the money to do the analysis and
research has been a problem.  And then there's the old problem of
when to stop researching and start publishing results.

We'll get a new TIGHAR Tracks written and new Research Bulletins up
on the website as soon a possible.

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:43:04
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Niku V reports

Karen Hoy asked:

> As for the Niku zipper, does it appear to be a heavy duty item
> (such as might be found on trousers) or lightweight? I seem to
> recall that Schiaparelli put zippers anywhere on  some garments,
> even as mere decoration.

My impression is that at least some of the Schiaparelli/Talon zippers
were custom-made with fancy pulls.  The Niku zipper is not one of
those.  The Niku zipper is not a heavy-duty jacket zipper or a teeny-
weeny decorative zipper.  The Niku zipper looks like one of several
standard Talon zippers pictured in a book about the Talon company
history published in 1963 and is labeled a "trouser zipper."

> Is there anything else I can do in NYC?

In the spring of 1937, Talon ran an ad campaign in The Saturday
Evening Post, The New Yorker, and Esquire pushing the use of zippers
on clothing. It would be interesting to look at those ads.

Also, while flipping through period periodicals, keep an eye out for
ads for bottled lotions or hair care products in bottles that look
like our little 1933 bottle (AO5bottleT.jpg on the Niku V CD).

Thanks Karen.

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 12:00:15
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Re: Niku V reports

For Dr King
       Look at the Purdue collection on line; Picture 135-  a fancy
bottle, 546- a compact, 559 - a green bottle. 561, - a pair of
sunglasses, and 562 - A WATER LIGHT.  Now I know many in the forum
have seen these item, but the new folks maybe haven't seen them.
LTM  mp
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 12:55:04
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Niku V reports

For Mike Piner

Thanks, Mike; I'd forgotten the smelling salts bottle and water
light.  We haven't found a good match for any of these items, unless
the green bottle that Ric's reconstructing winds up looking a lot
different than its pieces suggested in the field.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:19:52
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      long, cylindrical ferrous core

Speaking of possible candidates from the 1930s, how about something
like one of these big old Western Union style Everready "gray label
long life telephone" cells?

http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC2.shtml
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:20:17
From:         Rick Jones
Subject:      Re: Niku V reports

The compact mirror picture is very interesting, Mike.  I'm surprised that the
analysis of the glass from Niku didn't indicate a silvered surface. I have
placed the TinyURLs for these two here to make it easier for everyone
to view.

http://tinyurl.com/3ymuw5

http://tinyurl.com/32ezdb

LTM
Rick J
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:46:40
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: Niku V reports

What I find most interesting is, the Purdue compact mirror and the 7
site glass artifact seem to be about the same size and both appear to
have similarly beveled edges.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:38:53
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Niku V reports

The analyst at the Winterthur Lab said she wouldn't be at all
surprised at a mirror losing its silvering in the rigors of Niku
weather and sunlight.  But the Purdue compact mirror, though beveled
like the Niku specimen, is smaller.

LTM (who says size matters)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:59:45
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: Niku V reports

Tom King wrote

> But the Purdue compact mirror, though beveled like the Niku
> specimen, is smaller.
> LTM (who says size matters)

Thanks Tom. Makes me think she could have taken along a bigger one
from the same favoured manufacturer for her round-the-world flight
maybe, seeing as how a slightly bigger compact might have played a
handy, all-in-one kind of role in her grooming-whilst-flying routine.

LTM (who says if the shoe fits...)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 2 Jan 2008 08:05:12
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Niku V reports

See page 16 for a photograph of Amelia's powder compact that she
reportedly took with her and compare it to the one at Purdue. Page 117
shows ph0tos of the smelling salt bottle and the emergency light
canister (metal) with what appears to be a brass identification top,
made in New York and labeled "Marine Torch".
reb
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 2 Jan 2008 08:05:28
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Mother

It would be interesting reading if someone put together the many
Things that Mother has quipped on this forum.

LTM,  who says a lot of true words.

mp
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 2 Jan 2008 08:39:44
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Niku V reports

That makes sense.  The Purdue mirror appears to be corroding.
Dan Postellon.

> From Tom King for William Webster-Garman and Rick Jones The analyst
> at the Winterthur Lab said she wouldn't be at all  surprised at a
> mirror losing its slivering in the rigors of Niku  weather and
> sunlight.  But the Purdue compact mirror, though beveled  like the
> Niku specimen, is smaller. LTM (who says size matters)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:04:49
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: photos of compact, etc.

Forgot to post the book that contains photos of various items that AE
usually carried with her. It is "Women Aloft", by Valerie Moolman, a
Time Life Book, 1981,and photo credits go to Smithsonian. Obviously
she didn't have these items aboard but does show the type of compact
with four holders inside with the powder bags. There is a
manufacturer but I can't read it all, made in "New York". Heck maybe
from Jackie Cochrans collections.

REB
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:29:21
From:         Rick Jones
Subject:      Re: Compacts

The Purdue compact was "Mondame of New York, NY".  I found several on
ebay which were all of the same general dimension of the Purdue compact,
but slightly smaller than the beveled glass artifact.
LTM
Rick J
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:01:51
From:         Tom Roberts
Subject:      Re: Compacts

"Mondame" on the Purdue website appears to be a typo or misprint.
Mondaine, had a line of compacts in the 1930's, but Mondame seems to
draw a blank (even on eBay), except for the Purdue website.

Also, Gary Quigg visited Purdue, I believe on October 2, 2007, and took
close-up photos of their compact.  At least one of these clearly shows
"Mondaine" below the rouge section of that compact.

LTM,  Tom Roberts
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:46:53
From:         Rick Jones
Subject:      Re: Compacts

For Tom Roberts

Good catch Tom.  Many more hits on Google with Mondaine.  Here is one
that is 3"x4" with a mirror that looks to be closer to the artifact
dimension in height.

http://www.tias.com/11052/PictPage/1922725386.html

Rick J
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:01:13
From:         Adam Marsland
Subject:      New book?

So if the new find works out, and DNA is obtained, will there then be
a new book called..."Amelia Earhart's Crap?"
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:30:40
From:         Mona Kendrick
Subject:      Re: New book?

> From Adam Marsland
>
> So if the new find works out, and DNA is obtained, will there then be
> a new book called..."Amelia Earhart's Crap?"
>

Either that, or "Noonan's Number Two."

--Mona
********************************************

Why do I have this feeling that I will regret posting these remarks? ;-)

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:31:30
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Sunline

A Interesting web site is http://timeanddate.com/worldclocl/
sunearth.html .  You can see the representation of the sunline.  Wait
until July 2, this year to see if this sunline goes thru (vicinity)
of Howland, Mckeon, Gardner.
LTM    mp
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:35:14
From:         Karen Hoy
Subject:      Re: Talon zipper

I have been unable to (so far) find a good close-up shot of a 1930s
zipper and slider paralleling the one from the Seven Site. This picture:

http://www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/a2images/rw_zip.jpg

is a good match for the zipper, in situ on a World War II bomber
jacket made by Rough Wear.

The Acme Depot site, http://www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/index.shtml is
a great resource on the subject of vintage WWII jackets.

LTM (who tells me to keep my jacket zipped)

Karen
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:36:06
From:         Suzanne Astorino
Subject:      Re: Sunline

Mike's URL had a typo plus an extra space.

There is the correct URL:

http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 5 Jan 2008 19:43:33
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Talon zipper

Karen Hoy writes,

> I have been unable to (so far) find a good close-up shot of a 1930s
> zipper and slider paralleling the one from the Seven Site. This
> picture:
>
> http://www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/a2images/rw_zip.jpg
>
> is a good match for the zipper, in situ on a World War II bomber
> jacket made by Rough Wear.

Actually, it's not a good match.  That's what Talon termed a "heavy-
duty" zipper and it's quite a bit beefier than the Niku zipper.  It
also has the Talon name on the bar above the pull - a standard
feature of the "heavy-duty" design but not present on the Niku zipper.

You're right that the Acme website has good detailed information
about zippers on military jackets.  We'll want to contact Marc D.
Weinshenker directly.  The following are my comments on his
description of Talon zippers from the website (http://
www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/a2detail.html)

"Talon zips appear to have been the predominant brand used, and they
can be seen in a small number of variations which appear to be
changes over time, judging from their association with A-2 contracts
and other gear."

That agrees with my research.

"Early Talon zips, found on pre-war jackets, had a wide bell-shaped
puller with a full-circle cutout, and attached to the slider with a
simple rolled hook. Other pullers, apparently of earlier vintage, had
an arc-shaped cutout at the bottom and a series of vertical lines on
either side."

In other words, pre-war military Talon jacket zips were unlike the
Niku artifact.

"Next came the triple-marked Talon, so called because the name Talon
appears on (1) the new vertical bar of the slider, (2) the puller
tab, and (3) the stopper box. These were produced with both
rectangular and the new narrower bell-shaped pullers, but the bell-
shaped pullers now had a half-circle cutout. The rectangular pullers
are seen on A-2 jackets much less often than the bell-shaped pullers."

The zipper pictured at http://www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/a2images/
rw_zip.jpg is a "triple-marked" Talon.

"The next variation was to simplify the pattern on the stopper box
and remove the Talon name. These unnamed stopper boxes are often seen
in a hybrid configuration with the double-marked puller/slider
combination."

No stopper box was found. Of course, that doesn't mean there wasn't a
stopper box but other small metal items such as the snap were found
with the metal detector.  The small size of the zipper pull, the
presence of a snap and a button, and the apparent absence of a
stopper box all suggest a pair of pants rather than a jacket.


"Finally, the Talon name was removed from the vertical bar on the
slider to go along with the unmarked stopper box.
Further evolution continued, with the primary difference being the
change of the cutout on the puller from a half-circle back to the
full circle, but by this time A-2 production was phasing out. I have,
however, seen a final contract Dubow with this puller version."

The information I found indicated that Talon stopped putting its name
on the product when they could no longer use brass.  That would be
between the summer of 1941 and the fall of 1944.


Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 5 Jan 2008 19:44:11
From:         Rick Jones
Subject:      Re: Talon zipper

For Karen Hoy

A vintage 30's 40's motorcycle jacket (ladies) is shown here:

http://www.vintagemotorcyclejackets.com/jkt27.htm

and a close-up of the pull is shown here.

http://www.vintagemotorcyclejackets.com/jkt29.htm

Rick J
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 5 Jan 2008 19:44:36
From:         Rick Jones
Subject:      Re: Talon zipper

For Karen Hoy

The jacket zipper pulls look like good leads, but if the jacket AE had with
her is the same one in the picture with Jay Quinby (on the Purdue site), we can
assume some other use for the zipper pull and slide found at the 7 site.  I
personally like the connection to the button and the snap, thinking it could be
from a pair of slacks, perhaps.

http://tinyurl.com/2nujfa

LTM, Rick J
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:55:53
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Talon zipper

> The small size of the zipper pull, the
> presence of a snap and a button, and the apparent absence of a
> stopper box all suggest a pair of pants rather than a jacket.

The small size certainly argues for something other than a jacket,
but I'd be careful about making too much of the absence of a stopper
box and the presence of a snap and button.  The snap was about 10
meters away from the zipper pull, and I don't know where exactly the
button (found in '96) was.  And it's awfully tricky to make an
argument based on something's absence.

LTM (who's present)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:56:08
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Re: Zipper pull

Perhaps the zipper in Pic # 230 of the Purdue Collection can be
enhanced.  This photo , if usable, has to be dated, and the place
established. On the round the world flight we hope.

I have searched the Purdue site twice, and this is the only small
Zipper pull.
LTM     mp
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:56:34
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      1934 Talon zipper ad

An interesting ad from Talon. In the Apparel Arts magazine from Fall,
1934. Some other clothing ads with zippered items as well. Gives a
good feel for the time period. If you think it worth while I can
research other Apparel Arts ads for the 30s.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=18122

blue skies, jerry
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:12:56
From:         Mona Kendrick
Subject:      Re: 1934 Talon zipper ad

> From Jerry Hamilton (2128)
>
> If you think it worth while I can
> research other Apparel Arts ads for the 30s.

Yeah, why don't you see if you can find any zippered women's slacks?

--Mona
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:26:06
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Talon zipper ad

> Yeah, why don't you see if you can find any zippered women's slacks?

There just HAVE to be some honest-to-god collections of 1930s women's
clothes somewhere.  What we need are some slacks we can actually look
at in person, do side-by-side zipper comparisons.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:26:55
From:         Karen Hoy
Subject:      Re: Talon zippers

I've been told that the Museum of the City of New York has a great
collection of vintage clothing (17th century to present, over 27,000
items, all documented.)

It is not on public display, but scholarly inquiries are welcome.
Contact information:

Conducting research at the Museum of the City of New York is
centrally coordinated through the Department of Collections Access.
Requests are fielded via phone, email, fax and mail.  To contact the
Department of Collections Access you may leave a message at:
212.534.1672 x 3399, send an email to research@mcny.org, send a fax
to 212.534.5974 or mail a letter to Department of Collections Access,
Museum of the City of New York, 1220 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY
10029.  Queries are answered in the order in which they are
received.  It may take two weeks or more before you receive a
response to your initial inquiry.

Let me know if there's anything I can do,

Karen Hoy
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:51:57
From:         Stephen Packard
Subject:      Nikumaroro on Google Earth updated

I'm not sure if everyone already knows this, but if not... I cruised
over to Nikumaroro on Google Earth today and was surprised to see
that the island is now avaliable in very nice high resolution
imagery.  Better than the satellite photos I had previously seen of
the island.  I'd estimate the resolution is 2 meters or less full
color, although there is some compression.    This is quite an update
because last I had checked (a few months ago), the island showed up
as a splotch of green pixels n the ocean.   Nice to see it updated
and worth taking a look at
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:25:07
From:         Tom Doran
Subject:      Magazine article about Niku V

I noticed today that a surveying magazine I subscribe to had an
article on Tighar's most recent trip to Niku.

http://www.pobonline.com/CDA/Archives/
BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000209557

The article is pretty well done and accurate, as best I can tell. It
was written by Mike North, a surveyor. The "hook" for the magazine
was that the team used surveying equipment to map out locations on
the island. North doesn't mention how he became aware of the project.

Tom Doran, #2796
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:00:29
From:         Karen Hoy
Subject:      Re: Talon zipper

I've just been looking at Esquire and Saturday Evening Post ads from
the spring of 1937.

They were advertising "slide fasteners" (aka zippers) on men's shirts, trousers
and undershorts. The ads for trousers and undershorts specified Talon
as the brand.

In addition, the Sears catalog was showing zipped men's jackets in
1936, and zipped women's blazers in 1937. Talon zippers were shown on
men's sweatshirts in 1937.

The earliest Sears ads for the "Easy-on-Talon Fastener" were for
women's leather jackets in 1934, and some purses beginning that year
also had zipped pockets.

Blum, Stella (ed.) "Everyday Fashions of the Thirties as Pictured in
Sears Catalogs." New York: Dover Publications, 1986.

Karen
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:00:58
From:         Karen Hoy
Subject:      Zipped jackets?

I just looked at some of the Purdue photos and could only find one
with obvious zippers, on the jackets held by Noonan and Earhart. The
magnification feature only goes so far!

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,315

Karen
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:53:27
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Moon shots

I come across an interesting piece called "Death by Parallax" in which the
author discusses the problem of fixes with the moon when it is near the horizon
or not really high, because of its closeness to the earth.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3694854
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:50:45
From:         Tom Doran
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

<<an interesting piece called "Death by Parallax">>

Arguing that FN "forgot" to correct for parallax and refraction is
implausible. Although anything is possible (maybe AE forgot to check
the fuel level) Noonan by all accounts was an expert navigator. This
correction is elementary and routine.

I don't know how Noonan did his calculations. When I was doing them
in the Army 30 something years ago we had preprinted forms in which
you entered a series of values. You couldn't accidently leave
anything out. If Noonan added things up on a legal pad or in a
notebook he would have developed a personalized method of calculation
such as, "Add these four numbers, divide by that and subtract this."
It wouldn't "look" right if something were missing.

We don't know for certain how many times Noonan calculated position
or direction, but you'd have to argue he made this blunder each time,
over and over.

Tom Doran, #2796
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:36:52
From:         Tom Doran
Subject:      Hillary Swank movie on Earhart

A movie about AE to star Hillary Swank was recently announced.
Planned release is the end of 2008 but the writer's strike may delay
production which was to have started next month. Swank has been
quoted as saying the script will not address any theory about the
disappearance. One aspect of the story will be portraying AE as a
pioneering advocate of women's rights.

A movie about AE with an Oscar-winning star and already described as
an "Oscar-contender," is sure to put AE in the news again. The
publicity is something TIGHAR could take advantage of.

I don't know what funds might be available for paid advertising but
it might be wise to do whatever is necessary to be sure that TIGHAR's
story is readily available. For instance, the week the movie is
released might be a good time to do a splashy press conference
announcing whatever results are available from analyzing evidence
recovered from the most recent trip. Maybe one of the women who
participated in the recent trip to Niku could get an article
published and do some speaking engagements. This could start small
with an article in a community newspaper and a talk to a local
women's club. It could build to the local daily paper and TV station,
later getting picked up nationally.

There should be ample material in TIGHAR's files to create an
audiovisual presentation for such speakers. Recently I become aware
of the big audience such material can draw on YouTube. Some aviation
things draw hundreds of thousands of viewers.


Tom Doran, #2796
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:37:29
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

For Tom Doran:   I am glad when I see something that expalins
something that I don't understand.  I have never done celestial
navigation, and admire those who can.  My expertise was Hydraulics
and Hydrology, in flood control situations, With the Corps of Engineers.

I agree with you. that he (Noonan) got the airplane right there,
so he did a Great job of navigating.

That was a great point that He would have forgot it all night.
It is however possible  that he wasn't sighting the moon until after
the sun came up, and he had no more stars to sight on.  We don't know
what happened, but maybe it is the simplest of things, like patchey
clouds that look like islands, so that you don't see the real one.
Going southeast Noonan would be navigating with what he had, The Sun
and the Moon, and we think he got to Gardner I.
LTM   mp
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:37:59
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      AE gets "Lost"

Perhaps it was inevitable, but our favorite missing aviatrix has recently
been woven into the ever unfolding story of the mysterious (though
fictional) castaway air crash survivors of ABC's hit series "Lost."

More precisely, she has been featured indirectly as part of an elaborate
on-line marketing campaign leading up to the launch of the show's fourth
season on January 31st.

If you're fans of the show (or just curious), check out this link...

http://www.flyoceanicair.com/

...to the "official home page" of the series' (made up) air carrier Oceanic
Airlines.  After a brief moment, visitors to the site will discover that it
has been "hacked" by a former employee (and IT expert) who's flight
attendant girlfriend was on board the Los Angeles bound Oceanic #815 when it
vanished a few hours after takeoff from Sydney, Australia in September, 2004
(when "Lost" premiered).

Visitors are then redirected to this "renegade site"...

http://www.find815.com

...which chronicles "Sam Thomas" in his quest to get to the bottom of the
disappearance of flight 815 and learn the ultimate fate of his beloved
"Sonya."  Information is revealed through specially filmed "webisodes,"
clever puzzles, and interactive access to "Sam's" phone messages, emails,
browser history, and video diaries.  Through the course of the
investigation, there have been increasing references to Earhart (though her
ultimate connection to the show's over-arcing plot has yet to be made
clear).

Evidently a lot of thought, energy, and money has been invested into what
strikes me as one of the most in-depth and engaging web-based promotional
efforts to date.

LTM (who always likes a good story),
Russ
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:27:17
From:         Tom Byers
Subject:      Re: Hillary Swank movie on Earhart

The title of the film should be, "Never Finding Land"

Tom
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:06:05
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: Hillary Swank movie on Earhart

Tom Byers wrote,

> The title of the film should be, "Never Finding Land"

Or "The Right Shoes"
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:11:27
From:         Tom King
Subject:      The Sun Line Theory is Wrong

I thought the Forum would enjoy seeing the following, which popped up
on my screen unexplained this morning.  It seems to me to be a
wonderful example of the kind of "thinking" that underlies most
Earhart theorizing.

> If the Gardner  Island scenario cannot be reconciled with the facts
> then it's time to look some place else.
>
> Stafford challenged the sun line theory.
>
> At sunrise July 2nd 1937 in the vicinity of Howland Island the sun
> bore 67 degrees true, 58 magnetic, and would change bearing to the
> North, that is decrease in numerical value.
>
> Amelia was steering a 'magnetic' course.
>
> The Electra's course was 67 magnetic to Howland Island at that time.
>
> The maximum value of a sun line could have had was 148-328 magnetic.
>
> When Noonan thought the plane had overshot Howland Island he had AE
> circle then fly at right angles to the original track on a North-
> South course or 157-337 magnetic to be exact.
>
> refer to page 236 of amelia - A LIFE OF THE AVIATION LEGEND by
> Goldstein and Dillon.

Here's the pattern:

1. Dramatic heading in the form of a statement of "fact"

2. Statement of unassailable (if irrelevant) logic: If the scenario
doesn't fit the facts, it's wrong.  Duh.  The operative word, of
course, is "if."

3. Underscored statement that someone challenged the "sun line
theory," by which I think is meant the whole Niku hypothesis.  Of
course, anyone can challenge anything, but presumably to the author
this Stafford fellow's challenge is definitive.

4. Several statements of alleged "facts" including numbers, which
makes them oh-so-scientific.

5. Statement of "fact" about what Earhart did.

6. Statement of "fact" about what Noonan did.

7. Reference to a specific page in a book; if it's been published, it
must be true.

If our work does nothing beyond showing a few people that there are
alternatives in historical research to this sort of sloppy excuse for
thinking, we will have accomplished something.

LTM (who insists that her children distinguish between fact and
guessing)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:37:42
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: The sun line theory is wrong

Oh, so correct Tom. It is amazing to me all the "facts" some people
profess to know. I have, in the past, tried to point out that all we
know is that sometime around 10:00 AM to 10:20 AM or so Earhart,
Noonan and the Electra took off from Lae New Guinea. We know what
heading she was on during take off roll. That is the ONLY heading and
position we know for the entire flight. The SE end of the Lae runway
is the last position we definitively know. That is it. Not anything
else. We have position reports but have little idea where they were
exactly at any given time. ALL the rest is speculation -- perhaps
reasoned speculation but guesswork just the same.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:40:45
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      All that we know

Thanks Dr King for giving this what it deserves,clearing the air
about what is Fact and what is SPECULATION.  We on the forum
speculate a lot , but I see phrases constantly, that "we do not know
what happened, but maybe...."  Alan just stated what we know, and I
think he was stating what someone actually SAW.   We could add to
that that the crew of the Itaska HEARD her voice get stronger and
believe that AE&FN were CLOSE to Howland Island.  To me those are the
only two "facts".  One fact seen, the other "fact" heard.
LTM who had to see it to believe it.   mp
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:21:00
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: All that we know

Thanks, Alan and Mike.  One more thing:

> We could add to that that the crew of the Itaska HEARD her voice
> get stronger and
> believe that AE&FN were CLOSE to Howland Island.  To me those are the
> only two "facts".

Quite right with respect to what was seen and heard on the night of
July 2 1937, but then there are quite a number of other "facts"
related to different bodies of evidence, like:

A host of fairly well-established "facts" about reception of post-
loss messages, bearings taken by Pan Am, etc.

The "fact" that human remains and artifacts were found on Nikumaroro
in 1940.

The "fact" that our investigation of what is probably the site where
those remains and artifacts were found has turned up things that
appear to suggest the presence of a woman and someone who didn't
understand how to open local clams, who may have been the same person.

The "fact" that we've found airplane parts on the island that are
consistent with an Electra.

The "fact" that we found what was apparently a woman's shoe from the
1930s at the Aukaraime Shoe Site.

And then there's all the other somewhat less "factual" anecdotal and
other evidence -- Emily Sikuli's account, etc. etc.

Any one of those lines of evidence might be accounted for by
something other than Earhart-on-Niku, but the more such lines we
develop, the less likely it is that they can ALL be explained away.
That's the flip side of the uncertainty we have to acknowledge about
(for instance) exactly where they were at X time on the morning of 2
July.  We know very little for sure about any particular line of
evidence, but we're coming to know quite a bit about the whole set of
evidence lines, and that, I'd submit, is how a mystery most often
gets solved.

LTM (who likes her children to stay in line)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:49:15
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Hillary Swank movie on Earhart

Tom Doran writes,

> A movie about AE to star Hillary Swank was recently announced.
> Planned release is the end of 2008 but the writer's strike may
> delay production which was to have started next month. Swank has
> been quoted as saying the script will not address any theory about
> the disappearance. One aspect of the story will be portraying AE as
> a pioneering advocate of women's rights.
>
> A movie about AE with an Oscar-winning star and already described
> as an "Oscar-contender," is sure to put AE in the news again. The
> publicity is something TIGHAR could take advantage of.

We've been keeping a close eye on this and there is no sign that
anything is going to happen any time soon.  The director who had been
named is working on another major film that will be shooting this
spring.  There's also a good chance that there'll be a screen actors
strike this summer.

Big Hollywood projects with major stars get announced all the time.
Most of them never go any further than the initial hype.

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:54:33
From:         Tom Doran
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

<<never done celestial navigation,>>

My experience was as a surveyor, not an aviator. Tables were availble
for every recognized star.  Polaris was the preferred sight, the sun
was acceptable but we weren't allowed to use the moon ----too big and
calculations would be no better than aproximate.

The Sun was what was generally used. Polaris is actually hard to
find, and hard to see. It's not visible in half the world. In typical
latitudes, say 40 degrees North or less, it is close to the horizon.
Terrain or ground haze can obscure it. It's actually fairly dim. Also
it's not stationary as generally assumed, but has apparent motion in
a small oval through the night. That requires an additional
correction which requires precise time.

Maybe one of our more veteran avators can say whether flyers in the
thirties used the moon for navigation. I'm not sure it would tell you
much more than, "You're going NE, more or less."  That's not much to
go on if you're traveling a thousand miles, looking for a flyspeck
island.

I also wonder why this writer would assume Noonan got his navigation
right every day for more than a month, then grossly blew it in the
critical day. I thought his explanation of parallax was weak also.
We have parallax becasue tables are calculated as though the observer
were at the center of the Earth. Generally when we look at the sky
we're on the surface, 4000 miles up from the center, and we're not on
the equator. Refraction is the effect of the atmosphere, analogous to
the zigzag  you see with a pencil in a class of water. Refraction is
dependent on latitude.

Tom D., #2796
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:35:40
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

Based upon charts actually used from Oakland to Hawaii, typically, two or
three stars were used to determine a positional fix.  Use of 3 stars almost
ensures that a single calculational error will pop up.  Use of 2 stars may
give a widely different position from what was expected, and that actually
did happen, so another fix was made about 30 minutes later.  Radio bearing
information (either obtained on the plane or provided via voice from land)
was used at the beginning and the end of the flight to help navigation.

Daylight fixes are much harder to make, of course.  From the Atlantic
crossing charts, there is a noon fix, which helps determine the latitude.
Longitude was determined mostly by dead reckoning.  The positional fixes are
extremely sparse in this case, and mostly consist of LOP's.

Tables were available back in 1937 that accounted for altitude, as many fixes were made on the ground at varying altitudes (e.g. on mountains), so
those corrections were readily available.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:10:33
From:         Karen Hoy
Subject:      Talon archives

The vintage corporate records of Talon, Inc are in the collection of
the Crawford County (Pennsylvania) Historical Society.

What information has TIGHAR been able to extract from them? Are they
a dead end?

************************************************************************
From Ric

I didn't know about them so we haven't extracted any information from
them.  The society has a good website.  Karen, if you'd like to
handle this line of research drop me an email.

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:31:12
From:         Gary LaPook
Subject:      Re: Noonan's Morse capabilities

Any idea how big a "second" is as used for  geographic coordinates, not
for time?

Answer: slightly more than 100 feet or one third of a football field,
one sixtieth of a nautical mile.

Prior to GPS no navigator on a ship (outside the sight of land) or on an
aircraft ever knew his position to this level of precision so it makes
no sense to believe the "1" in the "281" message could possibly refer to
1 second. the Federal Aviation Regulations only require that celestial
position fixes be accurate to 10 NM or 600 seconds of accuracy, not one
second of accuracy.

Look at it another way, if they could determine their position to that
level of precision they would have been drinking Champaign on Howland.


gl
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:33:41
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Talon archives

Have the gals on the site determined if AE was wearing women's or
men's pants during her trip.  I would expect that the various photos
of AE during the trip would offer clues.

I seem to remember that years ago the zipper on women's slacks were
on the side rather than down the front for men.

I would think this would be important if one was looking into the
different type zippers used during the 1930's.

Ted Campbell
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:02:39
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Noonan's Morse capabilities

Amen, Gary. to me, for what that counts, "281" is an anomaly. It
could not represent anything so precise. Neither a time, distance or
direction although direction is a remote possibility. If Noonan could
determine they were 281 degrees from or to any place he would have to
know precisely where he was. I suspect that was misread or an error
some how. Just like the message out of Lae that was either 150
degrees 7 minutes or 157 degrees.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:02:57
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Earhart's pants

Many of the photos in the Purdue collection show her in what appears
to be Womens pants.  on the left side when you look there is a sort
of flap back of the pocket if there is a pocket.  Sometimes I have
seen a zipper pull, but usually it is hidden by a belt. There is one
zipper pull of the small size on pants that is visible but is
blurred,  can't get a good look.  Maybe it can be inhanced.
LTM    mp
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:10:33
From:         Wes Smith
Subject:      Re: Noonan's morse capabilities

"281" or "To Anyone"???

Wes

*******************************

The message was in code, so not much chance of that kind of confusion.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:35:48
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Earhart's pants

Ted Campbell asks:

> Have the gals on the site determined if AE was wearing women's or
> men's pants during her trip.  I would expect that the various
> photos of AE during the trip would offer clues.
>
> I seem to remember that years ago the zipper on women's slacks were
> on the side rather than down the front for men.
>
> I would think this would be important if one was looking into the
> different type zippers used during the 1930's.

Numerous photos show very clearly that AE wore side-zip women's
slacks.  Zippers ("flies") did not appear on men's trousers until
October 1937.

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:09:11
From:         Gary LaPook
Subject:      Re: Noonan's morse capabilities

"281" in morse code consists of only three characters:

. . - - -     - - - . .     . - - - -

Which sound like:


dit dit dah dah dah           dah dah dah dit dit      dit dah dah
dah dah

Note, each numeral character in morse code consists of five elements.
All alphabetical characters consist of only one through four
elements, none have five elements.

see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code

gl
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:26:54
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Re: Noonan's morse capability

You are talking about FN's morse ability, and with a mike, not a
key and someone hearing the code and writing it down, So what if the
last word or number was five dashes, we would have a more believeable
situation,wouldn't we?   "280"

They got North and South mixed up.  Maybe meaning to say "280 NM
south of Howland Island".  ----Just conjecture!
LTM who got confused.   mp
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:34:45
From:         Peter Boor
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

My own experience as a USAF Navigator was that the moon as used for
celestial had a few problems:
1) Compared to a star, it was too huge to shoot. Where do you aim?
The center? A limb? Even shooting the sun was difficult/chancy
(though less so than the moon) because of the size of the object;
2) At night stars were always used if the sky was clear. The moon
could be shot in daylight, but the cuts with the sun were less than
optimum;
3) Errors, especially in timing, were magnified in moon shots because
of the relative speed of the moon's travel across the sky. Planet
shots had the same problems - stars were best, then sun shots, then
planet shots, and the moon was a last resort.

I can't believe that navigators of the 1930s were any worse than us -
they might even have been better celestially, except for equipment.
By the 50s and 60s, Radio, Loran, Doppler and other aids tended to
make navigators celestially lazy. When I went to SAC's Bombing
Competitions in the mid 50s though, Navigators were graded on a
navigational leg using only celestial. By the late 70s, sextants
normally installed in bombers and cargo planes were being removed.

Peter Boor - USAF Navigator/Bombardier 1953-1960.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:31:07
From:         Reed Riddle
Subject:      Re: Moon Shots

> From Peter Boor
>
> My own experience as a USAF Navigator was that the moon as used for
> celestial had a few problems:
> 1) Compared to a star, it was too huge to shoot. Where do you aim?
> The center? A limb? Even shooting the sun was difficult/chancy
> (though less so than the moon) because of the size of the object;

The Sun and the Moon are the same angular size in the sky, so the
same errors from any measurement should happen.  The difference will
be that the Moon's orbit around the Earth makes it move quicker
across the sky, so without an up to date table of lunar positions
errors in the measurements will increase.

> 3) Errors, especially in timing, were magnified in moon shots
> because of the relative speed of the moon's travel across the sky.
> Planet shots had the same problems - stars were best, then sun
> shots, then planet shots, and the moon was a last resort.

Planets should be more accurate than Moon or Sun shots, because the
planets move more slowly.  But, the tables might only have one
planetary position per month, so estimating between them may increase
the errors.  Planets are also much smaller, so the "which part do I
shoot?" dilemma should not exist.

This is all from the astronomy point of view...navigators likely got
a much different set of training and had different tools for taking
the observations.

					Reed
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:31:35
From:         Reed Riddle
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

> From Tom Doran
>
> I also wonder why this writer would assume Noonan got his
> navigation right every day for more than a month, then grossly blew
> it in the critical day. I thought his explanation of parallax was
> weak also.
> We have parallax becasue tables are calculated as though the
> observer were at the center of the Earth. Generally when we look at
> the sky we're on the surface, 4000 miles up from the center, and
> we're not on the equator. Refraction is the effect of the
> atmosphere, analogous to the zigzag  you see with a pencil in a
> class of water. Refraction is dependent on latitude.

I guess I need to read the original article, but parallax as we use
it in astronomy should have no effect whatsoever on celestial
navigation.  It is a small number, small enough to fit within the
errors of the sextant measurement, for all of the bright stars.  The
largest parallax is for Alpha Centauri at 0.76 arc seconds.  For the
Sun, parallax should not matter as you are measuring the current
position, and navigators should have had a table that gives that for
each day.  Also, at the distance the Sun is at, the radius of the
Earth is again too small to worry about.

Refraction depends on altitude of the object above the horizon; for
anything above 15 degrees it is an easy correction, but below that it
is more complicated.  I don't know how navigators handle the two
cases.  I have never read anywhere that atmospheric refraction
depends on the position on the Earth; in astronomy we just treat the
atmosphere the same all over the planet when we correct for it.

					Reed
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:48:26
From:         Mark Prange
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

From Earth The Moon's parallax can be considerable.  For July 1,
1937 the Nautical Almanac tabulated its maximum ranging from 58.1' to
58.8'.  A (58.7' tan Hs) correction to the Moon's sighted height
would be either added to that height, or subtracted from the
precomputed height.

The 1937 Nautical Almanac tabulated hourly Moon coordinates.

Sincerely,

Mark Prange
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:23:07
From:         Mark Prange
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

My mistake--I meant cosine, not tangent:  58.7'cos Hs
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:10:17
From:         Gary LaPook
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

This is an excerpt from the current U.S. Air Force Navigation Manual,
AFPAM 11-216.

gl

13.8. Parallax Error. Parallax in altitude is the difference between
the altitude of a body above a bubble
horizon at the surface of the earth and its calculated altitude above
the celestial horizon at the center of
the earth. All Hcs are given for the center of the earth. If the
light rays reaching the earth from a celestial
body are parallel, the body has the same altitude at both the center
and the surface of the earth. For most
celestial bodies, parallax is negligible for purposes of navigation.
13.8.1. Parallax Correction for the Moon. The moon is so close to the
earth that its light rays are not
parallel. The parallax of the moon may be as great as 60'; thus, when
observing the moon, a parallax
correction must be applied to the Hs. This correction is always
positive (+) and varies with the altitude
and with the distance of the moon from the earth. The correction
varies from day to day because the
distance of the moon from the earth varies. Corrections for the
moon's parallax in altitude are given on
the daily pages of the Air Almanac and are always added,
algebraically, to sextant altitudes. The values
of parallax for negative altitudes are obtained from the Air Almanac
for the equivalent positive altitudes.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:10:41
From:         Gary LaPook
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

The problem with shooting the moon is caused by its phase. Except for
the one day a month when the moon is full, the image of the moon is
not perfectly round and it is difficult to judge its exact center.
When the moon is full you can center the moon in the bubble of the
sextant just like a sun sight or a star sight and get an accurate
reading. When it is not full it is not easy to estimate its center
in the bubble, leading to an unknowable error.

Surface navigators using  marine sextants line up either the lower or
the upper limb of the moon with the horizon and then make a
semidiameter correction to correct that reading to what would be the
center of the moon just like when shooting the sun. (No semidiameter
correction is applied when using a bubble sextant since you are
already measuring the altitude to the center.)  The semidiameter
correction is listed for each day of the month in the Moon and Sun
columns of the Nautical Almanac, and varies from about 15' to 16'.

The moon and the planets move to the west at rates that differ from
the sun and the stars but this does not cause any problem with
accuracy of these type of sights. All that is required is to make an
additional correction for "delta v" using the interpolation table in
the Nautical Almanac and add this correction to the Greenwich Hour
Angle to get the accurate G.H.A. of the planet or the Moon. The
"delta v" is tabulated in the Nautical Almanac for each day for all
the planets and for the Moon. This involves one additional step in
the almanac and all navigators are trained how to do this. In the
Nautical Almanac the positions of the planets, sun, moon and stars
are tabulated for each hour and the most you have to interpolate for
is 59 minutes and 59 seconds. If one were to forget to apply the
"delta v" correction, the maximum error would be limited to the
magnitude of the tabulated "delta v" correction which is the change
in one hour. For example, the "delta v" for Mars today is 2.6'
meaning that if the sight were taken at 59 minutes and 59 seconds
after the hour the maximum error would be 2.6' minutes in longitude
or about 2.6 nautical miles. If the sight were taken on the half hour
the maximum error would only be half of that, 1.3 NM. This 2.6'
"delta v" is close to the maximum value for any "delta v" for a
planet. Today's "delta v" for the Moon is 15.9' so a much larger
error is possible if a navigator forgot to apply it to a Moon sight
sight when using the Nautical Almanac.

If using the American Air Almanac these errors are eliminated since
the actual position of all celestial bodies are tabulated at ten
minute intervals and the usual procedure is to take the sights
exactly on the ten minute points so no interpolations are required.
Even if a different time is used the maximum error from ignoring
"delta v" is only one sixth of that when using the Nautical Almanac
since the time tabulations are one sixth of an hour, ten minutes, apart.

  From convenience considerations, the easiest fix to take is  one
using just stars since the tables are designed to make this
computation the shortest possible and when using H.O 249 volume one
all star computations for the fix can be done in one glance at one
line of the tables. Shooting the planets, the Moon or the Sun require
a different computation for each body including the "delta v"
correction for the Moon and planets and the "parallax in altitude"
correction for the Moon. If all or these steps are done then, except
for the non full moon with a bubble sextant case described above, the
positions determined should be equally accurate. The only reason one
would ever shoot the moon is if it were the only body available such
as in daylight hours. This is why the Sun is observed during the day
too. This goes for the planets also since they are bright they may be
visible close to sunrise or sun set before the stars are available.
But at night stars are the choice, not because of accuracy but due to
convenience.


gl
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:53:53
From:         Gary LaPook
Subject:      Re: Moon shots

I probably should not have used the term "unknowable error" in
estimating the center of the Moon in the bubble in the first
paragraph of my last post because the magnitude of the error is
limited to about 15' and is unlikely to approach this value. This is
because the diameter of the Moon is about 30' so the edge of the Moon
is about 15' from the center. To have an error approaching 15' the
navigator would have to have placed the lower or upper limb (edge) of
the Moon in the center of the bubble instead of the estimated center
of the Moon and it is quite unlikely that a navigator would not
recognize this situation. The more likely size of this centering
error is about 3 to 6 minutes of arc resulting in the LOP being in
error by 3 to 6 NM.