Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:52:26 From: Andrew McKenna Subject: EARFOR: Re: RAC Blake wrote: > I have toyed with the idea of sending my extra copy of > Amelia's Shoes to the radio station in care of her, but wonder if by > being involved with Nauticos if shes already too tainted to even give > it a read. My other thought has been to donate the book to our local > library system since they dont currently have it in there catalog. What > do you guys think? > Anyway it was kind of interesting, so I thought I'd just throw that to > the forum for fun. > Blake Herling Skeet Gifford and I have met with the latter day AE and given her the TIGHAR Earhart Project dog and pony show. She was very interested and seemed to be keeping an open mind, although Skeet is a bit more skeptical than I. She's got a million dollar name, who can blame her for using it to open interesting doors. Clearly Nauticos is enjoying the marketing potential, not her english skills, but since they seem to be in show business, it is really nothing new. She was given a copy of AE's Shoes, so don't bother sending another copy. Send it to the book reviewer at the Rocky Mountain News or the Denver Post and ask them to review the new edition. Andrew McKenna ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:08:46 From: Richard B Gifford Subject: Re: RAC (Amy Earhart) For Blake Herling In July, 2004, Andrew McKenna and I met with Amy Earhart in Boulder, CO. Andrew gave a presentation which effectively outlined TIGHAR's position and progress, and furnished her a copy of Shoes. She was courteous but not particularly responsive to the presentation, nor did she mention her box full of family keepsakes related to Amelia Earhart. If she read her copy of Shoes, it was not apparent during the February TV segment. You may draw your own conclusions from this. My own assessment is less-than-charitable. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:23:43 From: Martin X. Moleski, SJ Subject: EARFOR: Re: RAC (Amy Earhart) > From Skeet Gifford > > ... If she read her copy of Shoes, it was not apparent during the > February TV segment. > > You may draw your own conclusions from this. My own assessment is > less-than-charitable. I'd argue that we need to cut the poor woman some slack. Who knows what view she grew up with? As human beings, we all "hear what we want to hear and disregard the best, la-la-la" (Paul Simon, "The Boxer"). There are excellent reasons for Ms. Earhart to cast her lot with the present search. What a great time in her life to sail the South Pacific! No matter what happens with the search, this is a marvelous opportunity for her to become more familiar with AE and to think about and develop her own career. AE made her living by performing for the public through the media. I cannot blame her niece for doing the same. If our prediction that the deep-water search will fail comes true, then Ms. E may take the TIGHAR hypothesis more seriously. I hope that she "lives long and prospers" (even though I am NOT a Trekkie). All the publicity for the Nauticos search is good for TIGHAR. The extra six months that they are taking to go to sea is excellent for us--more time for Ric to finish The Book and have it ready for post-Nauticos press conferences. For those of us who love TIGHAR and who find the Niku hypothesis plausible--or at least worthy of further study--Ms. E's lack of interest may seem offensive. "If she understood sound principles for historical research, then she would do thus and such," we think. I know what it is like to be a TIGHAR evangelist knocking on closed doors (Fiji School of Medicine, 2003) and I also know what it is like to be the object of enthusiasts who want to convert me to their agenda (most recently Mel Gibson Christians). For those who reject the Niku hypothesis, there is a short, sweet, and powerful one-line argument: "If AE and FN had landed there, TIGHAR would have found persuasive evidence by now." You know better than I do why the hypothesis may be correct and yet the evidence has not been forthcoming (wretched conditions for a search), but it is not hard to see why some people may exhibit "contempt prior to investigation" (AA's Big Book). Kudos to you to for making contact with her and for planting seeds that may yet bear fruit. Insight takes time for those of us not born of Vulcan parents (I am NOT a Trekkie). Ms. E may yet become a friend, even an associate of TIGHAR. Hmm. I may yet earn another $50 for TIGHAR with my bones talk. If I do, I'll ask Pat and Ric to sign up Ms. E for a year. LTM & the boys, who must be enjoying the spring! Marty #2359 ******************************************** Marty, isn't there something or other about protesting too much? I bet you are a closet Trekkie. "Mel Gibson Christians"? The boys are adoring spring. They spend hours each day flat out on their sides in the sun... and mud. Live long and prosper. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 18:21:28 From: Martin X. Moleski, SJ Subject: EARFOR: Re: RAC (Amy Earhart) > From Pat: > > Marty, isn't there something or other about protesting > too much? I bet you are a closet Trekkie. If I deny it again, I'm with the lady "who doth protest too much." If I don't deny it, I seem to accept the charge. > "Mel Gibson Christians"? Yes. The question is not whether you've seen the movie, but how many times and with how many hankies per viewing. :o( > The boys are adoring spring. They spend hours each day > flat out on their sides in the sun... and mud. I was out this afternoon wading in mud and meltwater in my rubber booties. Saw my first crocuses. What a nice day! LTM. Marty #2359 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 18:44:02 From: Paige Miller Subject: Changes Pat, I don't like this new system either. I get the digest version of the list. Some people insist on sending HTML e-mail to the list, and that HTML code gets passed through to us as plain text, which makes a lot of gibberish show up when I read the mail. Prior to this, I never got HTML, just the occasional post with stray characters like at the end of a line (which I would like to have disappear too, but I have learned to live with). You would think that some computer guru would have figured out how to eliminate all of these problems by now ... -- Paige Miller #2565 ***************************************** OK, I'll go back to the old way. So sorry to have inconvenienced everyone.... ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:00:24 From: Monty Fowler Subject: Sometimes change is not good I have to agree with Paige, this new format makes most of the posts I get unintelligible - but then, I think HTML should be banned from e-mail programs, since e-mail is a communication and not an art form! LTM, Monty Fowler, whose number is ... somewhere. ( I have GOT to start that spring cleaning ...) ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:01:24 From: Don Neumann Subject: Forum Format All anyone needs do to view the Forum posts without all the (so-called) 'aggravation' everyone seems to be complaining about, is simply click-on the : EARHARTFORUM Archives - April 2005, week 1 Address:http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe? A1=ind0504a&L=earhartforum All the HTML is 'cleaned-up' & there is no problem in identifying just, ...'who sent what, & when'... I agree with you, some of us _do _ tend to 'protest too much', ...however, most of 'us' are _not_ TIGHAR 'evangelists', we are merely interested in _finding_ the remains of AE's Electra, (&/or it's crew) or at least some tangible, conclusive evidence as to _where_ the R/T/W flight _did_ terminate. For many of 'us' that has been a lifelong aspiration & we are truly thankful for the considerable effort(s) that the TIGHAR group has extended in providing such a single, wide-ranging, comprehensive repository for all the AE/FN legend, lore & artifactual material that has been accumulated over the past 68 years . Ric's new book, while not providing any new 'revelations' concerning the location of the Electra or it's crews' remains, will certainly add a greater understanding of the circumstances which the initial AE/FN 'searchers' struggled with at that time, ...through a thorough analysis of the (so-called) Post-Flight Radio Transmissions & all the available information & misinformation surrounding same. It really staggers my own imagination to consider the millions of dollars that have already been spent & continue to be spent, ...searching the bottom of the Central Pacific Ocean... by various groups, ...yet no one seems willing to 'target' the _one_ (only?) area of that ocean bottom where the TIGHAR Hypothesis claims that the remains of AE/FN's Electra _has_ to located ! Have a good (though rainy day) & keep up the good work... Don N. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:15:23 From: Skeet Gifford Subject: Re: RAC (Amy Earhart) The vote is two to one. Minority report follows: I was initially drawn to TIGHAR because of the quality of Ric's writing skills and the openness of his research. In contrast, it is the cloistered documentation that renders Elgen Long's work not credible. Long's assertions are built on a house of cards. Long is not alone; the list is limited only by bandwidth. At the risk of lapsing into an Oklahoma version Cyrano de Bergerac, hidden agendas and disingenuous introductions distinguish the opportunist from the entrepreneur. Had Amy been forthright with her objective, she would have received no less information than Andrew and I provided. The benefit to her would have been additional specific information that we could have offered. For example, I could have provided details of successful deep-water recoveries. At the close of our meeting, Andrew and I suggested that Amy join TIGHAR. Offering a sponsored membership to someone who is considering an $80,000 stake in a highly speculative endeavor is, in my view, imprudent. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 13:05:30 From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: RAC (Amy Earhart) > From Skeet Gifford > > I was initially drawn to TIGHAR because of the quality of Ric's > writing skills and the openness of his research. Same here. And Pat knows how to dress up his writing and make it presentable. :o) > In contrast, it is the cloistered documentation that renders Elgen > Long's work not credible. Long's assertions are built on a house of > cards. Agreed. > ... Offering a sponsored membership to someone who is considering > an $80,000 stake in a highly speculative endeavor is, in my view, > imprudent. Here we have a different take on things. From what I've heard, Amy is trying to raise $80,000 so she can go on the trip. Having a fundraiser like that on our side may be worth a $50 plunge. My (unscientific and admittedly optimistic) assumption is that she may have a more open mind after the Nauticos venture is complete. I claim no special competence in predicting what women will or will not do. :o( LTM and the boys. Marty #2359 ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 13:58:06 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: RAC (Amy Earhart) I think I could get more excited about Amy once she has shown her genealogy actually connects. Alan, the resident cynic ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:15:30 From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Re: RAC I found a couple of letters to the editor of the General Aviation News, of all places, regarding AE. One is written by Charlotte Vick who calls herself a "Nauticos Team Member". One thing she says is "Our approach is based on the extensive research of Elgen and Marie Long and a comprehensive "renavigation" of the flight from Lae. The Longs spent decades tracking down every rumor and theory, including the one in the Pellegreno Book." (referring to the Tom Devine Saipan story). Seems to me that those decades of research by the Longs have neglected to consider the post loss radio signals. Have they commented at all on the radio signals? It sure will be interesting to hear their reaction when Ric's book hits the shelves. A. McKenna ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:05:02 From: Scott White Subject: Re: Garapan dig Tom King already forwarded some links on this. I ran across this one on another list. I think CNEWS is a Canadian source; don't know how credible they usually are. For what it's worth, this article is under the banner "Weird News." http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2005/03/29/974933-ap.html Best, -SW ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:18:46 From: Dennis McGee Subject: Attraction, not promotion Marty M. said: > From what I've heard, Amy is trying to raise $80,000 so > she can go on the trip. Having a fundraiser like that on our side may > be worth a $50 plunge. I dunno, Marty. TIGHAR may benefit from a "rainmaker" but other than her name what else can she bring to the table? Most of us here have few skills that contribute directly to the investigation. Sure, we give money, do research, write some here and there, gripe, nit-pick, and occasionally find a nugget. Most of us do our business here anonymously because we enjoy the work, the hunt, and the camaraderie. I'd be hesitant to try and capitalize on Amy's name simply because of who she is. If she wants to join and get her finger nails dirty like the rest of us, fine. It seems a bit unseemly for TIGHAR to overtly go after a public figure (is she?) only because she can possibly raise $80K (?) and her name has great marketing potential. TIGHAR is primarily an antique aircraft research organization that relies on its intellectual assets (among others!) to pursue and hopefully solve the Earhart disappearance. Yes, marketing is part of that process, but I think we can be a little more subtle to achieve our goals; I don't think we need to join the 21st Century just yet in that regard. :-) As all my buddies tell me, it's attraction, not promotion. LTM, who's gotten preachy lately Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:17:16 From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: Attraction, not promotion > From Dennis McGee > > I dunno, Marty. TIGHAR may benefit from a "rainmaker" but other than > her name what else can she bring to the table? For me, that is sufficient. TIGHAR needs publicity to thrive. She's someone who may attract publicity. > ... Most of us do > our business here anonymously because we enjoy the work, the hunt, and > the camaraderie. I do it anonymously because the press doesn't give a @#$*% about overweight, balding, Jesuit priests. :o) > I'd be hesitant to try and capitalize on Amy's name simply because of > who she is. When it comes to fundraising, I have fewer scruples than you do. I'm not totally unscrupulous, either. I wouldn't take any money from ... hang on ... uh ... Heavens, it's almost time to get ready for class! I'll have to get back to you on this. > It seems a bit unseemly for TIGHAR to overtly go > after a public figure (is she?) only because she can possibly raise > $80K (?) and her name has great marketing potential. And she looks good on camera (presumably). > TIGHAR is primarily an > antique aircraft research organization that relies on its intellectual > assets (among others!) to pursue and hopefully solve the Earhart > disappearance. Our brainpower plus $4 million might solve the mystery. The brainpower without the money isn't going to get the facts because all of the facts (if any) are on or around Niku. > Yes, marketing is part of that process, but I think we > can be a little more subtle to achieve our goals; I don't think we need > to join the 21st Century just yet in that regard. :-) I'm going back to the 16th century for my inspiration. St. Teresa of Avila said, "God and Teresa together are nothing--but God, Teresa, and three ducats can change the world!" [She fell off a log once into a stream. When she came out, she said to God, "If that's how you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few of them!"] > As all my buddies tell me, it's attraction, not promotion. Check the historical sources. The articles done by the Cleveland Plain Dealer helped to put them on the map. ;o) LTM & the boys. Marty #2359 ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:48:29 From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Attraction, not promotion Marty said: > I do it anonymously because the press doesn't give a @#$*% > about overweight, balding, Jesuit priests. :o)" Yeah, but WE love you Marty. After all, how many small non-profit organizations have a chaplain? We are indeed blessed!! > [(St. Teresa of Avila) fell off a log once into a stream. > When she came out, she said to God, "If that's how you treat your > friends, no wonder you have so few of them!"] Sound more like something Katherine Hepburn might have scolded Spence about . . .! :-) LTM, who dearly misses Kate and Spence Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ************************************** Of course, how Marty squares it with his conscience, being chaplain of an organization which uses Monty Python and the Holy Grail as its liturgy, I dunno....... Pat ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 20:34:05 From: George Werth Subject: TIGHAR another expeditionary group? Whilst surfing the net, I ran across the following article: > http://www.rense.com/general59/int.htm I was amused to read that TIGHAR is "another expeditionary group." George TIGHAR member # 2630 ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:40:41 EDT From: George R. Werth Subject: The Last Time I Saw Amelia Earhart --- ---- is the title of a book of poems I just received from amazon.com by Gabrielle Calvocorressi. Has anyone else heard of it? I'd be interested in knowing what you think of it. George TIGHAR Member # 2630 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:28:07 From: Mike Everette Subject: Movie footage of Lockheed Electra The 1940 movie "Dive Bomber" was shown on AMC recently. It has some great footage of a Lockheed Electra used by the Navy (in the story) as a high altitude research aircraft. Also lots of scenes with the TBD Devastator, SB2U Vindicator, and the Grumman F3F-2. Also the SNJ. And a few early PBYs. For those who wonder if the TBDs at Jaluit appear in the film, there is a web site devoted to the TBD (cannot recall the URL) wherein the person who maintains it has scoured the movie and identified every possible BuNo. He even goes through the whole TBD production list to give a history of the a/c. Neither of these two are identified as being in the film. But it is very sobering to see the long list of those llost 6-4-42. Anyway, the aircraft footage in "Dive Bomber" is fantastic but the screenplay is pretty lame even by 1940 standards.... ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:22:11 From: Marcus Lind Subject: Re: The Last Time I Saw Amelia Earhart For George Werth: As far as i know, this is a poem written by a contemporary poet about Amelia. Alas i haven't this book in my "AE collection", so i can only propose a couple of enough curious links with some description of it: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip051/2004021865.html http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v3=1&DB=local&CMD=010a+2004021865&CNT=10+records+per+page Here is a general listing of the links related to this book... http://www.altavista.com/web/results? itag=ody&q=%22The+last+time+I+saw+Amelia+Earhart%22+&kgs=0&kls=0 Best Regards - LTM, Marcus Lind ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:32:04 From: Karen Hoy Subject: Amelia Earhart's driving license Has anyone seen AE's license for sale on eBay? She reported that she was 5 feet 7 inches tall, and born on July 24, 1898. Right height, wrong age. . . Karen Hoy #2610 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:01:13 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Amelia Earhart's driving license Many of us have a copy of the 1926 license. Indeed it says 5' 7". Probably many reasons why there could be a difference over the years. Irene Bolams New Jersey license reads 5' 5", as well as her passport. This is the woman that was really "Amelia Earhart" say some researchers. Photos of the same Irene Bolam in 1976 next to a woman exactly 5' 3 1/2" show "AE" at 5' 4" tops. Ron Bright ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:00:23 From: Ron Bright Subject: Noonan post-loss message Ric, Since you may be the resident expert on post loss signals, I found a post from Rollin Reineck about 4 years ago. He merely sent a letter , unsigned, that had been addressed to "Mr Bellarts", probably in the early 70s. Anyway, in sum, the letter writer claimed to be the Station Manager at the PanAm Midway station when AE disappeared. He was having dinner with Ed Music, when a messenger raced into the room, with a message, not specified whether code or voice, from Noonan. The Noonan msg said he had taken a sunrise sunline and that he was 80 miles southeast of Howland. Rollin can't find the orignal. The letter to Bellarts was prompted by an article about AE in the San Francisco Chronicle, no date. I don't think there is any record of Midway receiving voice or code with that detailed information, just carrier . Who was the Station Manager July 1937 and have you heard of any signal coming from the Electra from Noonan? The authenticity is doubtfull, but the writer was well aware of the situation. I don't know if Midway PanAm radio records are available. LTM, Ron Bright ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:45:32 From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message The time at Midway when Noonan may have taken a sunrise sunline would be about dawn or just prior to that; it is hard to believe people would be eating "Dinner" at that hour. I've found no information that PAA monitored her flight until requested to by the US Navy. Does anyone know where Eddie Musick was when AE disappeared? ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:46:18 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Ron Bright asks: > I don't know if Midway PanAm radio records are available. Indeed, they are. The Operator in Charge at Midway was G. H. Miller and he submitted a report on post-loss Earhart receptions to the Pacific Division Communication Superintendent, G.W. Angus on July 11, 1937. Angus was at the Mokapu facility during the search and filed his own report to the senior Communications Engineer in New York. A similar report was filed by R.M. Hansen at Wake. All of the Pan Am memos are archived at the Seaver Center in Los Angeles. Miller mentions no such reception but he does say that "A man's voice was distinctly heard but not of sufficient modulation to be understood or identified." It should be possible to find out if Ed Musick was at Midway any time during the search. The only way the alleged message could be authentic is if it was sent while the plane was still in flight (there is no land 80 miles southeast of Howland) but Pan Am didn't start listening on 3105 until the evening of July 2nd. Ric ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:05:29 From: Karen Hoy Subject: Re: Earhart's driving license Didn't her pilot's license say 5 foot 8? Karen Hoy #2610 > From Ron Bright > > Karen, > > Many of us have a copy of the 1926 license. Indeed it says 5' 7". ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:36:08 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Earhart's driving license Karen et al From everything I have read, including copies of her pilots Identification Card, she was 5'8". Many Tighar people are more familar with her biography and physical data. I don't think it is much of an issue here. Ron Bright ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:36:29 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Ron, if you will look at the known information it is not possible for the Electra to have been 80 miles SE of Howland at sunrise. The plane was not capable of that airspeed in dead air let alone bucking any kind of headwind. I would buy 80 miles SW but Noonan SHOULD have been around 150 miles, give or take, west of Howland at sunrise, and maybe even more. Alan ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:43:02 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Alan, Maybe the guy writing the letter didn't have the msg in front of himself and was recollecting the incident, after all it was 1937 and he is writing in the 70s. He even asked what his boss, Judd Ingram make of this msg. Don't ask me about that navigation, I just reported an alleged msg from Noonan, at least that is what the writer said. It is not clear exactly what time etc the signal was made. Let me quote; " Early morning sun -line-----repeat-----80 miles S.E. of Howland. Thirty minutes gas---Noonan" There you have it to interpret. Ron B ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:27:29 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Ron Bright wrote: > Let me quote; " Early morning sun -line-----repeat-----80 miles S.E. of > Howland. Thirty minutes gas---Noonan" > > There you have it to interpret Ron, my best guess is that either the plane is low on fuel or Fred has run out of Rolaids. Alan ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:59:53 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message More to the story. I found the second page of Reineck's post dated 7-13-01 to me about this alleged Noonan msg. He had found it in his Goerner file. Rollin's subject title was "Re Bills attachment" and addressed to Bill Prymak, and Ron Reuther, and me. First I may have misread the letter. The signal may well have been heard in the air early morning of 2 July but was not delievered to Ingram and the letter writer until "dinner". That would mean Noonan at 80 miles out near sunrise was close to the 6:26 time when Itasca heard "about 100 miles out". But I found the second page of Reineck's post indicating that the letter writer was a "Saunders", who said he didn't have a copy of the message, but that they, Midway, plotted the course on a chart and it showed them they were near Howland. Saunders for some reason is writing to "Mr Bellart", chief radioman aboard the Itasca, perhaps asking if he had heard that msg. The Reineck post was sent just when I was going to interview Gordon Vaeth, a longtime AE researcher, and it may have come from Fred Goerner files as my mission was to clear up some comments made by Goerner to Vaeth. They carried on an extensive correspondence over the years about AE. Saunders said he had talked with Briand, and with Goerner. As you know Goerner in the end rejected the Mili landing and survival and instead embraced a ditch about 80-100 miles or so southeast of Howland on perhaps an atoll. (Winslow reef). Reineck speculated that maybe Goerner used this message to change his position as to where she came down. This letter, signed by Saunders, indicates that Saunders was an "airport manager" at Midway when AE disappeared. Thus he remarked that he was a close friend of Noonan most likely thru Noonans contacts at Midway flying the clippers. Saunder was asking his boss, unnamed, maybe Miller, what "he made of the Noonan msg". He notes there were three radio operators at Midway. Of course without Pan Am msg information, we can only speculate if Saunders actually saw or read such a message. Ron Reuther interviewed Goerner near the end and that is when Goerner said he gave up the Mili crash, based on the Eric Sussman Mili "investigation", and suggested the southeast crash site. Ron Bright ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:25:11 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Good information, Ron. Fits better. If in fact it is accurate it may be the source for the half hour fuel left contention. We know that they were airborne longer than that IF the call came at or before 07:42 AM but it appears we don't really have a time/date on it yet. You and I have discussed Winslow Reef before and although the charts show the various reefs about twice that distance from Howland we don't actually have a clue what land was above water on July 2, 1937. Information about Winslow from modern times doesn't seem to be all that relevant. In my flying years I've seen land appear and disappear. I also suppose barring additional information we are not dead certain the transmission was on the second in the air and might have been the next morning or so on land. Or did I miss something? Noonan conceivably could have taken a sunrise shot the next morning trying to get his position or a noon shot to get latitude. Confusing. Are the relevant logs available? I don't have all that much trouble with the 30 minutes fuel left as when the gauges get close to empty they are less accurate and harder to determine fuel quantity. They could have thought they were far lower on fuel than their fuel charting indicated, assuming they WERE charting their fuel. Alan ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:25:50 From: Paige Miller Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message > The Noonan msg said he had taken a sunrise sunline and that he was 80 > miles southeast of Howland. Hard to believe that someone could know he was 80 miles southeast of Howland, still in the air, and yet not able to find Howland and land there. Something sounds fishy to me. Paige Miller #2565 LTM ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:27:36 From: George Werth Subject: Photographs of AE Found some photographs, in the Lockheed Martin Digital Photo Collection, of Amelia Earhart that might be of interest to the forum. With the search parameters set to display the oldest first the thumbnail pictures are on pages 7 through 11 of 86. I'm sure that the forum won't be able to resist looking some of the other pages -- I looked at all of them. But then I worked for the Lockheed Corporation before the merger with Martin so it was like old home week for me. George TIGHAR member # 2630 http://photos.external.lmco.com/ ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:28:10 From: Ron Bright Subject: Noonan's Message? The name of the PAA airport manager at Midway , July 1937, who wrote the letter about the Noonan msg, is Stewart A. Saunders. According to Dave Bellarts, Leo's son, Saunders letter was included in the Bellart's donation to the National Archives. The date was 13 June 1968. More than likely he is deceased now. But as airport manager, he has some credentials here re the Earhart story, albeit it was a 31 year old anecdote. Without interviewing him, or finding any corroboration in the Pan Am files, it is just another interesting story. LTM, Ron Bright ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:34:26 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message There appears to be fairly good information that Winslow "reef" is an underwater seamount. It may discolor the water, but there is no place to stand. Even Robert Lewis Stevenson sailed over its supposed location without finding anything. Daniel Postellon ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:15:09 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message You bring up a goog point here that may be explained with the internal dashes: Here is the quote from his recollection. "Early morning sun line------repeat)-------80 miles S.E. of Howland. Thirty minutes of gas---Noonan." What may have been excluded or included is the dash format is anyone guess. This makes it difficult to assign an exact time the msg was related. Saunders, Stewart A., was also confused and asked what did Judd Ingram make of this message. The only way to resolve this is to have someone in LA check out Seaver Center. It is hard to believe that a voice signal that significant has escaped our researchers, but there it is. Saunders most be deceased by now. Someone was going to see if Ed Musick was there at Midway , July 37 to sort of confirm Saunders 1968 recollection to Leo Bellarts. Ron ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:16:11 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message So did Cam Warren. He looked for it I think in the mid 1990s and found a lot of water , but no reef. But who knows what is was like in 1937?? Any port in a storm, said Fred Noonan to Amelia. REB ********************************** If you will recall, the aircraft from the Colorado spent a long and frustrating morning searching for Winslow reef and never saw it. That's what it was like in 1937. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:16:00 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Pat wrote: > If you will recall, the aircraft from the Colorado spent a long and > frustrating morning searching for Winslow reef and never saw it. > That's what it was like in 1937. Not quite, Pat. Lambrecht's search pattern missed to the West some 5 to 10 miles. Randy published an excellent piece about it which he sent to me. There were numerous sightings over the years, the latest of which was in the early 1940s. Randy's graphic showed each of the sighting locations and Lambrecht's search pattern. Also keep in mind Lambrecht did not get there until the ninth. Alan ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:16:42 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Noonan's message One possible way to resolve the mystery message maybe with the kind of radio analysis Brandenburg did with the post loss msgs. Namely, the signal heard at Nauru could not have originated at Niku. Is it possible to look at the transmission possibility of sending a voice msg, rather clear and identifiable, some 1900 miles north of Howland to Midway Is on 3105 about 7:00 am in the morning , 2 July 37. Or are we facing skip charactertics that, for instance, indicated the possibility that the West Coast, Wyoming (Dana Randolph) and even the East Coast (Betty) received siganls. If Midway couldn't receive voice that would end it right there. The signal from 80 or so miles southwest of Howland would have passed right over Itasca. LTM, Ron Bright ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:17:01 From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: AE photos Good job George ! These pictures are great LTM ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:24:00 From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Alan, you have it wrong. I showed that Winslow Reef was under the flight patterns of the Colorado planes. > From Alan Caldwell > > Pat wrote: > >> If you will recall, the aircraft from the Colorado spent a long and >> frustrating morning searching for Winslow reef and never saw it. >> That's what it was like in 1937. > > Not quite, Pat. Lambrecht's search pattern missed to the West some 5 to 10 > miles. Randy published an excellent piece about it which he sent to me. There > were numerous sightings over the years, the latest of which was in the early > 1940s. Randy's graphic showed each of the sighting locations and Lambrecht's > search pattern. Also keep in mind Lambrecht did not get there until the ninth. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:46:27 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message I've been looking, and I haven't found any report that suggests that there was ever enough land to stand on, or ground a ship on, let alone enough to land a plane on. If you have a report suggesting that there was anything within 20 feet of the surface, I'd be glad to see it. Daniel Postellon TIGHAR# 2263 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:04:21 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Ron Bright says: > One possible way to resolve the mystery message maybe with the kind of > radio analysis Brandenburg did with the post loss msgs. Namely, the signal heard > at Nauru could not have originated at Niku. A. There is no "mystery message." There is an allegation based on an anecdotal recollection many years later that is directly contradicted by a primary contemporaneous written source. No contest. It never happened. B. When did Bob Brandenburg say that the signals heard at Nauru could not have originated at Niku? > Is it possible to look at the transmission possibility of sending a voice > msg, rather clear and identifiable, some 1900 miles north of Howland to Midway > Is on 3105 about 7:00 am in the morning , 2 July 37. That would be entirely outside the pattern. One of the most interesting aspects of the post-loss signal reports is that only three stations - Howland Island and Baker Island and Achilles - hear intelligible voice on either of Earhart's primary frequencies. Stations further away from the Phoenix Group - Itasca, Nauru, Midway, Wake, Hawaii - sometimes hear unintelligible voice. Except for one questionable reception by Coast Guard San Francisco, nobody beyond about 2,000 miles out from Howland hears voice on a primary frequency. (McMenamy and Pierson can convincingly be shown to be hoaxers.) > Or are we facing skip > charactertics that, for instance, indicated the possibility that the West Coast, > Wyoming (Dana Randolph) and even the East Coast (Betty) received siganls. The Earhart receptions heard by Dana Randolph and Betty and several other shortwave listeners, if heard at all, were heard on a harmonic of 3105. Those receptions had nothing to do with skip characteristics. > If Midway couldn't receive voice that would end it right there. Midway certainly had the capability to receive voice transmissions and they did hear a man's voice on 3105 but it was unintelligible - which is consistent with the signal originating at Niku or anywhere at a similar distance from Midway. > The signal > from 80 or so miles southwest of Howland would have passed right over Itasca. HF signals are not directional. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:34:31 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Ric, I would like to add also that the contention the signal was tracked as being near Howland is not supportable. First of all the accuracy of doing that left a lot to be desired as far as determining exact direction. Secondly there is no way to determine range so the best that could have been said is that it came from the general direction. The "message" sounded to me more like a latter day construction rather than a reality in the first place. Nothing in it made sense. Just one of many. Nothing new. Alan ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:13:46 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Dan Postellon said: > If you have a report suggesting that there was anything within 20 > feet of the surface, I'd be glad to see it. Dan, see EOS (EOS, TRANSACTIONS, AMERICAN GEOPHYSICAL UNION) Volume 75 Number 24 June 14, 1994 front page article by R.S. Jacobson, Office of Naval Research, Arlington, VA. R.S. Jacobson is our own TIGHAR member, Randy Jacobson. I hasten to add that the Winslow Reef theory is NOT subscribed to by Randy. His research, however is outstanding, thorough and ought to be considered just about the last word on Winslow Reef(s). I do not have a way of providing a copy but I am sure it can be found. In his piece Randy reconstructed Lambrecht's search route and made it an overlay on a graphic of the Winslow Reef area. That was done with the best information Lambrecht provided and certainly is not GPS accurate. It is a best estimate based on Lambrecht's idea of what he did. Keep in mind Lambrecht was navigating off radios from his ship. Not anywhere near accurate. If the information Randy had available to him was dead on accurate it would indicate Lambrecht covered all but one known sighting of the various Winslow Reefs. That one was noted in 1943 at 1 degree 51' S, 174 degrees 30' W and appears to be about 10 or so miles east of Lambrecht's search area. Contrary to my earlier posting my faulty memory missed a sighting as recent as 1983. There were many sightings over the years from way before AE's flight to way afterward. One was noted to be 1500 yards in length oriented NW/SE at 1 degree 40' S, 174 degrees 50' W and that one was sighted in 1851. There is insufficient data to say whether that one was still above water in 1937 or if there were any above water on July 2, 1937 or there were numerous ones. Also keep in mind Lambrecht did not arrive in that area until the ninth of July and by that time if the plane was even there it could have been washed off any reef and the reef could have been once again covered with water. If I remember correctly the suspected transmissions had also stopped by then. Ric can correct me on this. The bottom line is that just like areas I flew over during my flying years reefs appeared and disappeared with significant frequency. Maps were annotated showing times reefs were visible and not. So what one would find in 2005 sailing out to the area has no relevancy at all. Winslow Reef is a possibility but that is all that can be said for it at this time. It CANNOT be dismissed until we can get a bit more proof from Niku. In my estimation it would take very little. Alan ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:38:11 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message Randy wrote: > Alan, you have it wrong. I showed that Winslow Reef was under the > flight patterns of the Colorado planes. No, Randy. I have the EOS publication here in front of me. You are correct Lambrecht's search pattern over flew the reefs but not the 1943 sighting which your chart shows to be about 10 or so miles east of his search pattern. But that's less important than the date of his search I would think. One would almost think even at ten miles they could have spotted not the reef perhaps but the plane. Maybe not but I imagine it to be a possibility. I would also guess you have a problem with reefs appearing and disappearing in a short time. I didn't mean to imply that if I did. If there WAS even a reef to land on it could have been there for an unknown length of time and it's cycle was just about to begin and water covered it a few days later. So actually it didn't have to happen in a short time. The other problem I believe you pointed out is that the current depths of the KNOWN reefs make it most unlikely if not impossible any one of them could have been above water in 1937. If that is so where did all the sightings come from? Was something else happening out there besides water level changing? Such as some sort of upheavals? This is all out of MY pay grade but it IS Randy's. Alan ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:20:01 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message I must agree that the Saunders letter to Leo Bellarts in 1968 was most likely a faulty reconstruction of events. Musick was at Midway, but according to knowledgeable sources, not on 2 July 1937. He was in Manilla. Saunders wrote the letter after seeing an article in the SF paper in 1968, when several books were being published. It is odd though that he would sit down and type a letter to Bellart setting forth a msg intercept that surely would have surfaced during the Itasca search. The letter was found in some of Goerner's files, I think, in some correspondence with Gordon Vaeth. I see no listing in the Goerner archives files done by Cam Warren, et al. of the name "Saunders". Your right, the Brandenburg conclusion in Chapt V sec A page 11 indicates that the Nauru msg COULD HAVE orginated from Niku. ( I was thinking of Wailupe which he concluded could NOT have come from Gardner). In sum, skip, harmonics, context, and dates of Saunders alleged Noonan msg seem to put it back into the waste basket. As we have often pointed out sometimes memories get sharper the longer one waits. Unless one could find the MIdway intercept, it is gone forever.. LTM, Ron Bright ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 08:51:29 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message I'm pretty sure he sent it to me, if I can find it. My point is that there is no There there. There is nothing close enough to the surface to land or stand on. It may be a good place to fish for tuna, and you wouldn't want to run your submarine into it, so I suspect that it is on some chart or map. Dan Postellon > From Alan Caldwell > > Dan Postellon said: > >> If you have a report suggesting that there was anything within 20 >> feet of the surface, I'd be glad to see it. > > Dan, see EOS (EOS, TRANSACTIONS, AMERICAN GEOPHYSICAL UNION) > Volume 75 Number 24 June 14, 1994 front page article by R.S. Jacobson, > Office of Naval Research, Arlington, VA. R.S. Jacobson is our own > TIGHAR member, Randy Jacobson. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 08:52:28 From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Noonan post-loss message The reef(s) in question can be seen under the following conditions: Low Tide (extreme?) Discolored water and unusual surface patterns of the ocean due to shallow conditions Breaking waves under large amplitude swell (not seas, which are higher frequency and often accompanied by white caps) Reefs rarely rise and fall above and below sea level; rather, it is the sea itself that rises and falls. If a reef appears above sea level, then it would be very apparent most of the time (e.g. Carondelet Reef, which the Colorado pilots found with no problems). As for sightings made prior to circa 1970, all positions were based upon dead reckoning and celestial navigation, which is very poor during daylight hours. Even with the advent of satellites in the 70's, a good position was within 10 nautical miles. The sighting you refer to is probably Winslow Reef, but made with poor navigational accuracy. The location of Winslow Reef and associated nearby reefs are based upon more recent geodetic maps with highly accurate (about 1 nautical mile) navigation. These maps map the deviations of the satellite's orbit and radar altimetry height above the ocean, due to gravimetric fluctuations at the earth's surface. Scientists can use the orbital fluctuations to map the gravity field, and then translate that, together with the height data, to determine the masses below the sea surface. The locations of the "reefs" are where anomalous mass (as opposed to water) are substantial, and likely rise close to the ocean surface. If the reef did become exposed, it would be easily recorded by the altimetry data as not being smooth relative to the surrounding area. Hope this helps a bit...