=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:32:51 EDT
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Gifts

After reading Last Flight and looking again through the available materials
in the Purdue collection - at least those available via the internet - I have
begun to wonder more about the Benedictine bottle.

Earhart and Noonan flew through a number of territories under French control
and obviously got on very well with many of the administrative people with
whom they had contact.

There is nothing written suggesting that a gift was made of a bottle of
Benedictine, but it's another of those possibilities that would explain the
presence of a sextant box AND a Benedictine bottle being found with the bones.

This is just idle thought, but I recall that the Benedictine bottle was the
subject of some rather intense discussion at one point.

Th' WOMBAT
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Could have been a gift, could have been Fred's stash, or could have been a
beachcombing find.  The strangest thing about the bottle is that it seems to
have disappeared in Tarawa.  The last we hear of it, the Acting
Administrative Officer in Tarawa (Wernham) has taken it away from Koata.  It
is never even mentioned in the telegrams to Fiji.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Jul 2001 13:05:47 EDT
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      Re: Benedictine bottle

This may be something of a stretch, but Fred's good friend Helen Day, with
whom he visited in Miami at the start of the last flight, worked in a package
store in 1936 and possibly in 1937.

Smooth Sailing,
Ron Dawson 2126
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Jul 2001 13:29:07 EDT
From:         Kenton Spading
Subject:      Being Involved in the Search

>If you mean participate personally in the field work, the first step is to
>become a member of TIGHAR.  Next you'll need to complete the Introductory
>Course in Aviation Archaeology and participate in a domestic expedition (such
>as we just completed in the Lake Tahoe area).  Completing those qualifying
>steps will make you eligible to be considered for the Earhart expedition
>teams.

Could Mr. Barnes short circuit some of this, and perhaps become a future
team member, by making a substantial contribution to the Earhart project?
Are there not current team members who have navigated the aforementioned route?

LTM
Kenton Spading
****************************************************************************
From Ric

On a few occasions in the past we have sought and accepted "Sponsor Team
Members" who made significant financial contributions to the project in
return for a place on the team.  Some of the Sponsor Team Members have worked
out exceedingly well and have been invited back regardless of financial
considerations but, on principle, I much prefer to avoid that method of
funding the expeditions.  If the need arises for some future expedition we'd
probably go that route again, but I can't promise that will happen.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:15:10 EDT
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: The LOP

For whatever value this morning (July 2nd) the Sun would have still given an LOP of
approximately 337/157 degrees. It was only a fraction less. The moon would
have been at eighty some degrees, however. Of course this morning she would
have been under radar control. <G>

Alan
#2329
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:14:28 EDT
From:         Ric
Subject:      Cleared area on Gardner

Chuck Boyle recently received the following reply to his question about
cleared areas on Gardner from bill Davis who was stationed there.

"About your question regarding a cleared area on Gardner. There was a
sort of cleared area from the upper corner of the lagoon out to the
ocean. It was not very wide maybe twenty-five feet or even fifty feet,
my memory cannot do any better on that. It was through this cleared area
that they dragged our wooden motor launch from the lagoon up up and out
to the ocean when the Basswood came to pick us all up when Gardner was
closed. While dragging the launch through the surf they ripped the
tiller off. I remember that because I think I near drowned that day
trying to hold the launch steady because it could not be controlled
without the tiller.
Good to hear from you hope this helps.

Best regards; Bill Davis"

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:15:45 EDT
From:         Doug Brutlag
Subject:      Re: The LOP

>Of course this morning she would
> have been under radar control. <G>
>
> Alan
> #2329

She could have also taken along a GPS ELT in her brain bag and another
installed in the tail of the Electra. Perhaps the Electra today would have
been the turbine powered version.

Doug Brutlag  #2335
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:13:07 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Cleared area on Gardner

Actually, you distributed that one awhile ago -- but wasn't there an earlier
one saying that they'd cleared a pretty good-sized area to assist the
colonists in coco planting?

TK
**************************************************************************
From Ric

Yes, Dick Evans remembered doing some bulldozer work for the locals.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Jul 2001 08:13:36 EDT
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Study of Gender Differences While Flying

You might be interested in this study:

http://www.healthscout.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Af?ap=55&id=110677

It seems that AE's crashes (not counting the fatal flight)
fit the female pattern.

The fatal flight, I wantonly assume, is a different
story.  ;o)

                        Marty
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Interesting.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Jul 2001 08:26:15 EDT
From:         Ric
Subject:      No Forum until 7/11

The forum has been blessedly quiet lately while I've been bouncing around the
country on various errands.  Our Niku IIII team meeting in Reno, Nevada was
immensely productive and the Aviation Archaeology Course and Training
Expedition in the Lake Tahoe area was very successful.  The B-17C wreckage
that we surveyed has some interesting possibilities for recovery.  More about
that later.

From now through the weekend I'll be at a family reunion in upstate New York,
then early next week I'm doing a gig for Space Imaging at a trade show in San
Diego (part of our satellite imaging deal).  Thanks for your patience while I
jump through these hoops.  By next Wednesday (7/11) things should be back to
semi-normal.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:03:30 EDT
From:         Ric
Subject:      Forum resumes

Hi everybody and welcome to a whole bunch of new forum subscribers who have
signed up during the current media feeding frenzy.

Sorry it has taken me so long to get the forum resumed.  I really wasn't
expecting the media reaction to Space Imaging's press release and it has been
"fins to the left and fins to the right" ever since I returned from a
guest-appearance at their booth at a trade show in San Diego.

For those who haven't seen way too much of me already, I'll be on the TODAY
Show on Tuesday morning (7/17) between 07:30 and 08:00 Eastern time.  From
there I'll go across the street to FOX where I'm scheduled to live bit at
09:35.  All of the above, of course, assumes that some kind of real news
doesn't break over the weekend.

Anyway, I'm back on duty.  Thanks for your patience.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:08:21 EDT
From:         Dick Evans
Subject:      Re: Recovery and restoration

As you say, times have changed. Enjoyed your comments about NOAA saying you
should not have been walking on the reef. Thought I'd add a bit of a story
that you might find amusing.

        Three times while we were down there they brought us diesel fuel
for the generators. This came in 55 gallon drums. The first time they tried
dumping a couple of barrels over the side and having them float in. This
didn't work. I imagine there are still a couple of barrels laying around
somewhere on the beach.

        So now they tied 6 or 8 barrels on a line with about 6 feet between
barrels. They would tow them in to the reef edge where thy would stop about
10 feet from the edge of the fingers. Now what? All the guys but one would
line up behind each other and grab the belt of the guy in front of you to
keep him from being knocked off the finger by the waves. We would walk out
on the top edge of the finger for 20 or 30 feet until the front man was up
to his hips between waves. This meant the waves broke across his chest. We
could look down between the fingers and see that they receeded under the
water so it was obvious that if anyone fell in, it was all over for him.

        Now the boat cew would throw a line to the front man. He grabbed it
and we would all turn around, grab the belt of the guy who was now in front
of you, and walk back onto the reef. Here the guy waiting would grab the
line, attach it to the weapons carrier and tow the barrels ashore. Then we
would load the barrels onto the Athey trailer and wait until we saw the
boat start in with another load. Then it was back onto the finger and do it
again. We would do this 4 or 5 times a day for 2 or 3 days until all the
oil was unloaded.

        I once told this story to a stateside officer who commented on our
bravery. After due consideratiion I think idiocy would have been a more apt
description.

Dick Evans
***************************************************************************
From Ric

It's interesting that the only other place in the satellite image that we see
color values similar to the anomaly north of the Norwich City is in the water
just off the reef in the area off Aukeraime where the Coast Guard tried to
float drums of diesel fuel ashore.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:15:19 EDT
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Niku photos and Reuters

Today Reuters News Service, along with several newspapers and TV
networks,  reported on TIGHAR and the  Ikonos 2 satellite photos of Niku
and what is believed to be "...an anomaly that's in the place where an
anecdotal account said there's airplane wreckage...''   The anomaly
being wreckage of Amelia's Electra wedged in the coral reef.

The portion of the article which perked my interest was a quote by
Rolling Reineck.    The article stated, ``In the eyes of reality,
there's nothing there. Other people have scoured the island and none of
us has ever ever felt that she was there,'' said retired Air Force Col.
Rollin Reineck, a member of the Amelia Earhart Society who believes she
was capture by the Japanese in the Marshalls."

First, the article does not state when and to whom Reineck made the
quoted statement.   Does any one know when and to whom Reineck made this
statement?

Second, is Reineck's statement true?   If so, who scoured Niku for
evidence of Amelia and Fred, what were their findings?  Were the results
of those who scoured Niku published?  If published, when and in what
format were the findings published?

Did freedom of the press take another giant leap into the realm of
fantasy?   Or, more likely, is Reineck simply making statements trying
to regain the center of attention?


LTM,  (who checks every pixel)
Roger Kelley
****************************************************************************
From Ric

I can only (charitably) assume that Rollin was misquoted.  He knows darn
well that, with the exception of the U.S. Navy aerial search in 1937, nobody
but TIGHAR has searched that island for signs of Earhart and we've certainly
never looked in the place where we see the anomaly.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:19:11 EDT
From:         Stephen Coffman
Subject:      Amelia Earhart

I just signed up for TIGHAR.

I do have an unanswered question:

Has any woman ever completed the flight around the world?  If so, who?

Thanks,

Stephen Coffman
****************************************************************************
From Ric

It's been done twice. Ann Pellegrino flew a Lockheed 10A arund the world,
closely following Earhart's path, in 1937.  In 1997 another woman, Linda
Finch, did sort of the same thing in a 10A that had been modified with the
larger engines of the 10E.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:46:38 EDT
From:         Charles Lim
Subject:      Anomolous pixels

      I was wondering if from the photograph of the satellite imagery
whether it is possible to ascertain the size and amount of electra that is
in the water if indeed thats what it is. Having read the bullitin I figured
that the pixels show that there is an object about 10feet long*2 metres
wide. The bulletin goes on to refute this as the dimesions of the object in
question using a description of how satellite imaging can 'lie' about the
dimensions.
      With this and with the known flaws of the imaging, is it possible to
find out how much of that object is still indeed there and whether this can
give us and idea of the orientation of this anomally assuming that it is the
electra we are looking for or whether the anomally fits the known dimension
of the electra??

Charles Lim
****************************************************************
From Ric

The anomaly seems to be about 20 feet long and of irregular width.
That would be consistent with the center section of the Electra (engine to
engine, gear to gear) but that's may be just coincidence.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:49:49 EDT
From:         Charlie Sivert
Subject:      Plans for Communication from Niku

        At the present time have you finalized a plan as to how you
will handle communications from Niku?  If my mental recall is correct,
you did plan on some type of contact with the home base at Wilmington
to file progress reports, etc.  Is this correct?

Charlie Sivert, 0269E
******************************************************************
From Ric

Yes.  We haven't finalized those plans yet but I should have something on
that soon.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:55:41 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Recovery and restoration

Thanks, Dick -- you've obviously given us a great alternative way of getting
at the anomaly on the reef.  All we need is somebody REAL big and dumb to
take the point.

Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:00:17 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Niku photos and Reuters

When I saw the Reineck quote, I immediately thought of Goerner's certainty
that the island had been thoroughly searched by Maude and Bevington and/or by
the PISS colonists.  I think this premise is still pretty widely believed
among TIGHAR-debunkers.  We discuss it at some length in "Amelia Earhart's
Shoes" -- which, by the way, went to the printer yesterday.

LTM (who knows a thorough scouring when she sees one)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:02:35 EDT
From:         Malcom Andrews
Subject:      Re: Forum resumes

So you are to be on Fox? We get a Fox News Channel on cable TV here in
Australia. Any way of finding out whether your bit will appear on it?

By the way, a piece about you apparently appeared on one of the
international news agencies on Friday (Thursday your time). A journalist
colleague saw it - but no one thought it sufficiently of interest to publish
it in any of the newspapers over here. Drat!

Malcolm Andrews #2409
******************************************************************
From Ric

Sorry.  I have no idea whether the FOX interview will be picked up in
Australia.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:11:38 EDT
From:         Denise
Subject:      Searches of Niku

Ric says: "I can only (charitably) assume that Rollin was misquoted.  He's
knows darn well that, with the exception of the U.S. Navy aerial search in
1937, nobody but TIGHAR has searched that island for signs of Earhart ..."

According to Emily Sukuli - a recollection recorded in Tom King's recent
book - this may not be true. Emily places another search there on the island;
one shortly after WWII. She says it was done by mysterious Americans who never
told the locals what they were doing, but who spent a lot of time at that
particular reef-edge looking for something in the water.

It doesn't take a vast stretch of the imagination to decide Emily deserves - at
the very least - eye-witness credit for seeing something that, in retrospect,
looks darn-well like an Earhart search to me.

And, come on now, give Gerry Gallagher his due. He spent all his spare time
looking for Earhart on that island. So, really, if you want to be fair, you
should be saying "As far as we know, according to public records, nobody but
TIGHAR - oh, and Gerald Gallagher - has searched that island for signs of
Earhart."

LTM (who loves a secret search better than anyone)
Denise
******************************************************************
From Ric

Emily Sikuli never said any such thing to either Tom King or to me.  You must
be thinking of Tapania Taeke's comment to me and Kenton Spading that some men
in a "government ship" came to the island and photographed the airplane parts
she said were scattered in the bushes along the Nutiran shore.  She didn't
say when it supposedly happened or that she saw them herself.  Pure anecdote.

There is absolutely no evidence I am aware of that indicates that Gallagher
"spent all his spare time looking for Earhart on that island."  He apparently
conducted the thourough search of the specific area where the castway's bones
were found but that is very different from "scouring the island."

I stand by my previous statement.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:14:01 EDT
From:         Phil Tanner
Subject:      UK press

Pleased to report TIGHAR makes reports in at least two of our four main
Sunday broadshets today, the Observer and the Sunday Times. As my glance
flashed over the former it landed on the phrase "glamorous and articulate"
and for a moment I thought it was description of Ric. But no, turns out to be
Earhart herself.
******************************************************************
From Ric

I count on you guys to keep me humble.  You do a great job.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:16:05 EDT
From:         Tom Cook
Subject:      Ann Pellegrino's flight (07/14/01 forum)

You did mean 1967, didn't you??  1937 was Amelia's  attempt, 1997
was Linda Finch's flight.  Does this qualify me as a  "Wannabe expert"
and a slimy creature again???  DARN!!
TC 2127 and proud of it!

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Yes, I meant 1967.  Sorry.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:19:00 EDT
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Amelia Earhart

In addition to those you mention, there's a couple more I've heard of...

Quoting from http://aviation.about.com/library/weekly/aa121100.htm
"Milestones in the Sky - Around the World Flights"...

(Amelia Earhart set out to be the first woman to fly round the world in 1937
but disappeard on what turned out to be her  final flight. It was not until
1964 that Geraldine Mock became the first women to fly around the world  in
a single-engine Cessna 180 called the Spirit of Columbus).

Also, from the same source...

In 1986 Dick Rutan and Jeana Yeager flew the Scaled Composites aircraft
Voyager around the world (24,986.727 mi.), non-stop and unrefuelled, in 216
hr., 3 min., 44 sec, or almost exactly 9 days.  (Dec. 14-23).

    - Bill
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:48:22 EDT
From:         Dave Porter
Subject:      the AE media blitz

Hi Ric, and welcome back.  All of us suffering from forum withdrawl syndrome
can now expect a quick recovery.  Welcome to all the new subscribers.  I
think you're going to like it here.

Ric, since you're an old hand at handling media pressure, I came up with
another way to stress you out. <G>  At a flea market today, I picked up a
circa 1979 Hallmark series 1 "Famous Americans"  Amelia Earhart collectible
doll, still in original packaging, for $10.00  Now you guys on the Niku crew
just gotta hit pay dirt this September so I can sell this ugly little thing
on ebay for some big bucks.

LTM, and I'll have the office TV tuned in Tuesday morning.

Dave Porter, 2288
*****************************************************************
From Ric

Well, with that much at stake I guess we have no choice.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:51:11 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Amelia Earhart

There is something I don't understand. When exactly did Ann Pelegrino flew
around the world ? Surely not in 1937 ?
*****************************************************************
From Ric

That was a test.  It was 1967.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:52:38 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Forum resumes

Welcome back.  It about blew me out of my chair when it first hit the TV news
here (Denver - I'm in Golden actually), and I'm tickled that it was not just a
local (since Space Imaging is in Colorado) phenomenon.  Several people have
known, in passing, of my interest in finding Amelia, and they all wanted to make
sure I had seen the news.  I took great pleasure in whipping out my membership
card and saying, "Yeah, I belong to that group!"  Way to go!
ltm,
jon 2266
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:54:14 EDT
From:         Mike E.
Subject:      What of Vanessa's competition?

Any news of Vanessa Chase's trip to the national junior historians'
competition?

I hope she did well!

73
Mike E.
******************************************************************
From Ric

Haven't heard.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:00:26 EDT
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      AE and the Benedictine Bottle

  A pretty famous photo of of AE is now floating about showing her standing
just outside the Electra 's open cabin door (solid), two gents loading maps
or documents, and with a dark black "E" ( 3' tall) affixed/painted just aft
of the door.
   The possible significance here is AE standing with a leather jacket
holding a squarish, perhaps 8" bottle, that has some type of wrapping around
the bottom. It does not appear to be of a service nature.It does not look
like a canteen or beverage bottle.Perhaps someone can identify the bottle.
    What did a 1937 bottle of Benedictine liqueur look like. (The photo was
taken before the modifications based on the solid door.)
    My computer isn't capable of higher resolution, but others may have a
clearer sharper photo or image.
LTM,
Ron Bright
*****************************************************************
From Ric

I haven't seen the photo you describe but as far as I know cn1055 (AE's ship)
never had an E painted on the side.  There are several photos of her beside a
10A that carried foreign registration letters - probably taken at Burbank
before her ship was delivered.  On those photos she's wearing a leather
jacket as I recall.

Benedictine bottles in 1937 looked much as they do today.  Very distinctive
shape.  Stop by the liquor store and check it out.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:41:49 EDT
From:         Ric
Subject:      Welcome new forum subscribers

Perhaps not surprisingly, given the current media feeding frenzy, we've had
something over 50 new forum sign-ups over the last few days.  I'd like
welcome all the new folks and apologize to the "regulars" for my somewhat
spotty attention to my moderator duties.  The phone hasn't stopped ringing.
The Brits want interviews in the ealry morning, the American press fills the
business day, and the Aussies rule the night.  I'm hoping things will settle
down a bit now so that we can get some work done.

I have one request of the new forum subscribers: please have a good look at
the material on the TIGHAR website before you ask questions or grace us with
your insights.   Unavoidably, you're tuning in to a show that is already in
progress, so it's going to take you a while to get up to speed.  We welcome
your informed questions, comments, and criticisms.  Thanks for joining us.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:52:11 EDT
From:         Andy
Subject:      Sat Photo available for download

    Just saw the sat image on the web site.  Its absolutely stunning.  While
I know no TIGHAR member or forumite would download images from the website
w/o express written permission, everyone may be interested to know that the
sat photo is available for download from spaceimaging.com in resolutions up
to 1280x1024.  In fact the Niku image is currently their "Image of the week."

    Can you provide the forum with any updates on the state of preparations
for Niku IIII?  I am sure we are all waiting anxiously for whatever news you
can provide.

LTM,
Andy
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Preparations for the expeditiona are coming along nicely.  There is, of
course, a ton of things to do but (so far) we've hit no major snags.  The
basic ship charter and airline fares are paid for but we'll still have to pay
actual food and fuel costs after the expedition and there are always
post-expedition research costs in figuring what the heck we found (assuming
we find something).

The exact degree and nature of media participation in the expedition is still
under discussion but media interest (as you may have noticed) is high.  I'll
let everyone know more as soon as I know more.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:59:25 EDT
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      odd bitz

Just a few snippets that came up in relation to my snooping around the index
for microfilm archives of the London Missionary Society's activities in the
Kirribati area...

80.  anon. 1937. Christmas Island: A Claim by U.S.A. in: PIM 7(6):10.

81.  anon. 1937. Christmas Island Sloop 'Leith' lands Fiji radio operator
and party. Who owns Christmas Island? in: PIM 7(8):10.

82.  anon. 1937. Japan has a look at Howland! in: PIM 8(1).

83.  anon. 1939. Unsuspected Wealth in Barren Rocks; remarkable story of
Pacific phosphate industry. in: PIM 9(10):17-20. BM DU/1/P.

84.  anon. 1940. Rules For Gilbertese Spelling. in: Western Pacific High
Commission Gazette, March 29, 1940.

85.  anon. 1941. Te Kolone o Kilibati mo Elise (The colony of Gilbert &
Ellice). Pepa tulafono mo nalo o fenua, o te tausanga e 1941. BM
PL/PhilPam/551.

It was number 82 that got my attention....

Th' WOMBAT
************************************************************************
From Ric

That would be an interesting one to look at.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:11:39 EDT
From:         Doug Brutlag
Subject:      Media Coverage

Are there any plans in the works to do live media broadcasts (via
satellite) from Niku?

Doug Brutlag #2335
************************************************************************
From Ric

All kinds of things are under discussion but no firm plans have been made.
Time zone differences would make live broadcasts from Niku pretty
impractical.

To keep the TIGHAR membership informed we're presently planning on me making
daily satellite-phone reports back to Pat here in Delaware.  She will post a
daily summary on the TIGHAR website.  To help members keep track of where
we're working on the island we're thinking of producing a gridded wall map
based on the satellite image with districts and major features and planned
search areas designated.  The maps would be available to TIGHAR members at a
modest price.  The daily website reports could then reference coordinates on
the map.  Does this sound like something that would be useful to you guys?

Now, if we could just come up with a secret decoder ring.....

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:40:49 EDT
From:         David Chase
Subject:      Re: What of Vanessa's competition?

Ric, it's been such a hectic summer, I completely forgot to post Vanessa's
results!

Only been home a couple days at a time with very little computer time. A
friend who lurks on the site called yesterday and mentioned that inquiring
minds wanted to know!

Vanessa took third place in the junior individual exhibit category (6th, 7th
and 8th graders).

She was just thrilled to be there, let alone to place high.  She traded
state pins with the other 1500 or so students, collected souvenirs and had a
blast. The closing ceremonies were quite impressive at the U of M basketball
stadium with the Navy band and Marine color guard entertaining, not to
mention the parade of students on the show floor with their state banners.
The competition was an incredible! When I saw the other exhibits and read
the research papers I thought it would be tough going to place in the top
ten. The other categories were even more amazing. There was one young man
from California in the performance category that gave a historical
performance of Teddy Roosevelt that was just breathtaking, you would have
thought that you just saw Teddy for 10 Minutes! He didn't even place in the
top three! Anyway, there were probably six or seven other exhibits on Amelia
there as well, only one in Vanessa's category; others were in group or
senior categories. In the later days of Vanessa's research she actually
interviewed Faye Gillis Wells and Bobbi Trout! She also spent a couple days
at the Amelia Earhart collection at Purdue University. Now she has the
flying bug and wants to go up in a bi-plane!

You can see the official results here:
http://www.thehistorynet.com/NationalHistoryDay/02_contest/02.html
Unfortunately the site does not let you go the precise page so...
click on the link, then:
    - National Contest Information and Final results, then
    - 2001 National Contest results, then
    - Junior Individual Exhibit

There's a Maryland company that goes around the contest taking pictures and
then posts them on the web in hopes that you'll buy them. Here's their link
to Vanessa's exhibit picture:
http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?eventorder?photo=00IF006S010012
&start=0&album=0&adjust=-1

Since Vanessa's project is cylindrical, we're working on a format to get the
info onto a web homepage and we'll keep you informed of that progress. We
have alot of pictures that we could post, but we're also looking at
formatting in a way that keeps the sense of a museum exhibit... alot more
challenging! We'll be watching this am, hope to see you. Good luck today and
over the next few weeks!
Dave Chase
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:06:14 EDT
From:         Stephen Coffman
Subject:      Re: Ann Pellegrino's flight

Are there any current plans (that you know of) for a 2007 flight?  A flight
every ten (10) years would help keep Amelia Earhart's story alive.

I know of a female pilot that I might be able to persuade to take the flight.
 Who owns Linda Finch's L10?

Stephen Coffman
**************************************************************************
From Ric
There's yet another Amelia wannabe alive and well and living in New Jersey by
the name of Grace McGuire who wants to fly an Electra around the world.  She
owns the only surviving 10E (Finch's airplane is a modified "A").  Grace says
she's close to having the airplane finished but she has been saying that for
the past 20 years or so.  As far as I know, Finch still owns the airplane she
flew around the world in 1997 but it has been for sale for some time.

Anything I'd have to say about Earhart commemorative flights would be
pointlessly controversial so I'll keep my mouth shut.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:27:30 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      8th Edition published

O beautiful Sunshine---
O Happy Day---
The Earhart Book ARRIVED Today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you-Thank you-Thank you.....

I can stroke it-hold it- caress it-clasp it to my ample chest--AND--Read
it....

Thank you, Jesus

Life is good...

LTM- who will read my second copy---
Jim Tierney
***************************************************************************
From Ric

As you may have gathered from the above, the hard-copy (versus on-line)
version of the Earhart Project Book (8th Edition) has been - at long last -
shipped out.  It's a large three-ring binder that contains those portions of
the report that have been completed.  Additional chapters, three-hole punched
and ready for insertion, will be sent out as they become available. This
multi-author tome is almost certainly destined to become the definitive work
on the Earhart disappearance.

It's a mammoth work and we're just as happy as Jim is that it now exists in
earthly form.  Those who have been waiting for this moment to order their own
copy will now have to think of some other excuse.  Otherwise, you can order
your very own Project Book at http://www.tighar.org/TIGHAR%20store/order.html

LTM,
Ric
[Note: the book is no longer available. All materials from it can be found
in the Research Papers section of the TIGHAR website.]
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:38:12 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: AE and the Benedictine Bottle

The photo Ron is talking about is from the Purdue collection.  It's XI.B.16.d.
The photo is almost certainly AE's plane - the cabin windows are absent, and the
fueling doors are present in the side of the fusilage.  There is an interesting
rod or tube running horizontally through the fusilage, visible through the side
window ahead of the door.  I can't be sure if there's one on the starboard side
also, but there might be.  The documents appear to include charts (sticking out
to the front of the bundle), and the outside one appears to be an envelope or
folder.  It is stamped "LETTE"  (the holder's arm obscures the rest, but it would
be logical to believe it says "Letter" or "Letters".

We (you and I) had a dialog about it some time back, and as I recall you thought
it might have been a special marking from her entry in the air races.  Would AE
have carried letters in an air race?  Possibly another GP publicity grabber?

The bottle is dark in color, and appears rectangular in cross section. Judging
from the way she's holding it, it looks like it might be three inches wide and
maybe 1 1/2 thick.  I'm guessing it's about 8 inches high.  It appears to taper
into a round neck, and it looks like it has a stopper that's spherical on the
lower half, and flat across the top, like a globe cut through at the equater.  It
seems to have a wrapper and some kind of a decorative string or twine, possibly
to hold the lid on.

Don't know if it's a liquor bottle, but I don't see any evidence of a tax stamp
over the top.  Did they do it that way in 1937?  It could just as easily be a
bottle of bath salts.

ltm
jon 2266
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks.  Now I remember.  Yes, that's her airplane and the photo has to date
from 1936, before the modifactions for the World Flight.  Both cabin windows
had that stringer through them at that time and there was no window in the
door.  This is the only photo I've seen where there's a big letter on the
side.  As yo say, my guess is that ti was around the time of the Bendix Race
in September 1936.

I have no idea what the bottle may be, if it is a bottle.

Anyone who want to see the photo can find it at
http://www.lib.purdue.edu/earhart/images/XI.B.16.d.jpg

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:12:50 EDT
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      A few wild ideas

As  this is my first posting, I may be a little out of date as I haven't
looked through the recent archive so I apologise if this matter has already
been addressed. I notice that there was a request for help on some of the
artifacts found. The base of the light bulb found gave me some ideas. This
bayonet type base is identical to the design of domestic light bulbs used in
Britain. They were supplied in 240, 110 and even 24 volt to name but a few
types. Very early ones were evacuated through the top of the globe and so had
a pip where the glass was sealed. The base was, I am pretty sure, copper.
Later ones were a brass base and evacuated through the pillar supporting the
filament which then carries an internal tube for this purpose. Modern bulbs
have an aluminium base. The "bakelite" material you mention is much more
likely a hard pitch which was (and is) used as an insulator. The ceramic
shard may well be a part of a brass and porcelaine bulbholder. One common
design used a brass housing containing a porcelaine loose insert which held
the contact pins. It is not impossible the bulb was used with a battery in
24V form but this is unlikely. A slightly more likely scenario is that this
is the base of a flash bulb. These were made with this type of bayonet
fitting. The glass would probably have been lacquered in this application and
may have used a thinner glass than standard. Reference to bulb manufacturers
(Osram, Swan etc) might be able to identify this as a flash bulb. If the bulb
has been discharged, the burning aluminium or magnesium foil would probably
have marked the glass. If the bones were photographed by Gallagher, he may
well have used flash to reduce the heavy contrast that a tropical sun and
undergrowth would produce. However it seems very unlikely he would have taken
any flash bulbs to such a remote and tropical island (although he may have
arranged to have some sent after the discovery)

Bayonet fitting bulbs were probably used in British ships in 110V form and
the bulb found could easily have washed ashore having floated from almost
anywhere and been subsequently broken. Alternatively it could have been
rubbish brought ashore with other equipment and merely thrown away. This
seems the most likely scenario. If this artifact was found in the region of
he water tank it seems likely the site had very British associations as the
US tends to use Edison-screw bulbs. In Britain these rarely appear except in
miniature version (MES).

The "South-east shore" seems much more likely to refer to the 7 site than the
1996 site. I don't believe that the 1996 site was the place where the bones
were discovered. It is possible that material recovered at the 7 site was
brought back to the village via the 1996 site and accidentally dropped there,
either in transit or at a temporary halt.

If the aircraft landed on the reef, it seems likely that without a tricycle
undercarriage, and with the heavy engines over the undercarriage, little
balanced by the weight of the fuselage, it would have ground looped (because
of the rough surface) to land upside down. Aircraft of this type such as the
Hudson did not handle well at takeoff and landing. If it landed OK, it would
soon have been upturned by the surf. At high tide only the undecarriage would
have been directly visible and one undercarriage leg was the rusty part seen
by the small girl. The round portion on the end was one wheel, with or
without its tyre. It would also help explain why the air search did not spot
the aircraft. Earhart and Noonan may well have been injured which helps
explain their rapid demise and lack of response to the search a week later.
Again, a ground loop would explain why a part discovered by Tighar may come
from the belly of the aircraft as it would then have been easily removed.

Every indication seems to lead to the conclusion that the remains of the
aircraft are now in the lagoon and I think this is where the search should be
concentrated. Sensitive metal detectors would be needed to detect aluminium
under perhaps many feet of silt. The ferro magnetic undercarriage and
remaining engine may well have been swept past the entrance to the lagoon and
ended up in deep water off the reef.

Regards Angus Murray
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks for your comments Angus.  Your opinions about the light bulb base
match others that we've had.  The possibility that it was actually a flash
bulb is particularly intriguing.  In digging through the inventory of
Gallagher's personal effects I can't find a mention of flash bulbs but that
doesn't necessarily mean he didn't have any.

Flash bulbs are, of course, disposable - which would explain how one ended up
on the ground near - what? - the hole that we think might be where the skull
was exhumed. Hmmm.

I'm afraid you're a bit confused about the sites on the island.  The "1996
site" is the same place as the "Seven Site."

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:16:28 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      8th Edition

Huzzah!  I just received my copy of the 8th Edition in the mail, The
only question now is who gets to read it first; me, my fiancee, or her
sister. Maybe I could solve the problem by buying two more copies.  Hmmm.
    Thanks again!

LTM, who loves the smell of Xerox toner in the morning!
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC=20
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:22:50 EDT
From:         Peter Polen
Subject:      Re: Welcome new forum subscribers

Received my new Earhart Project Books yesterday, thanks for remembering.

Saw you on TV last morning. You look like you have put on a little weight.
I'm sure you wanted to hear that statement. Well, going back to the islands
will take that off of yea.

Lets hope Washington doesn't find an intern (OOPS, sorry that's not political
correct is it), till you get back with Earhart's plane parts. Last time you
needed exposure a war broke out. I think it's your turn now.

Thanks again and good luck.

Peter Polen

Director Piper Aviation Museum
Lock Haven PA
****************************************************************************
From Ric

That's the problem with a 13 year investigation - there's too much
"historical context" on file.  For the record, my weight (although about 20
pounds too much) has been stable for the past five years.  I imagine all of
us will lose a little flab on this trip.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:15:17 EDT
From:         Stijn de Jong
Subject:      Re: Ann Pellegrino's flight

>Anything I'd have to say about Earhart commemorative flights would be
>pointlessly controversial so I'll keep my mouth shut.

Why thank you. I just snarfed tea all over my keyboard when I read that.
You're the master of the silent punchline, Ric.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:20:54 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Secret decoder and grid system for the map of Niku

       I think I still may have my Captain Midnight radio decoder packed away
some where.  Could we use one of those for the messages from Niku?  I don't
want to drink any more Ovaltene(?) to be able to get another one however.  I
do think the grid system to identify work areas on Niku would be a good idea.

Dick Pingrey 908C (Who thinks my mother may have thrown out the decoder along
with my Boy Scout stuff when I left home)
***************************************************************************
From Peter Boor

I'm interested...
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:44:57 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      8th Edition

I have the on-line 8th edition. Is the hard copy a separate purchase? If
so, how much? Thanks.

blue skies, jerry
***************************************************************************
From Ric

No, one price buys all.  If you don't receive your copy in the next few days
let me know.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:53:13 EDT
From:         Stuart Allsop
Subject:      Re: A few wild ideas

This is also my first posting here, and I'd also like to apologize in
advance if this is ground that has already been covered.

I wanted to comment on Angus Murray's idea that the aircraft may have
ground looped.  Although this is a possibility, ground loops don't occur
so much from the weight and balance of the aircraft, as they do from the
aerodynamics.  For non-aviators, a "ground loop" is a situation in which
an aircraft on the ground turns too quickly (kind of like grossly
oversteering a car into a skid), which causes the "outside" wing (the
one on the outside of the turn) to rise and lift the undercarriage on
that side of the aircraft off the ground, thus causing the "inside" wing
tip to touch the ground.  The inside wing will occasionally dig in, and
cause the aircraft to spin around, and in extreme cases to cartwheel,
especially if the ground is particularly soft.  A fairly common effect
during a ground loop is for the undercarriage of the aircraft to be
damaged, and occasionaly it is ripped right off the airframe.  But
cartwheels are very rare, for the basic reason that the speeds involved
in a ground loop are generally very low, not enough to allow the
aircraft to actually flip over.

However, the root causes behind a ground loop are nearly always
aerodynamic.  Taildraggers (like the Electra) are much more prone to
this than are modern tricycle gear aircraft.  The basic reason is the
difficulty in keeping any aircraft moving in a straight line when it is
balanced on only two wheels while the speed is too low for the rudder to
be fully effective.  (The weight and location of the engines with
respect to the location of the wheels is not all that relevant: even
modern airliners can ground loop, under the right conditions.)  At high
speeds, the rudder can easily generate enough aerodynamic forces to keep
the plane straight, but at low speeds there just isn't enough lift being
produced by the rudder (or rather "rudders" in the case of the Electra)
to make directional control on the ground easy.  Which is why you'll
often see taildragger pilots flapping the rudder back and forth madly on
takeoff, in an effort to keep the aircraft pointed straight down the
runway, but before there is enough airspeed to make the rudder fully
effective.

Hence, ground loops usually only occur at low speeds, and are more
common on takeoff than on landing.

Therefore, it seems unlikely that AE would have groundlooped her plane
for the normal aerodynamic reasons.

However, there is another possibility: Since she would probably have
been attempting to land on the hard wet sand close to the water's edge,
rather than further up the beach (where the sand would probably be
dangerously soft), it is possible that one wheel (or even a wing tip)
could have struck water, and that would have pulled the aircraft sharply
towards the sea, perhaps flipping it in the process.  Technically, it
wouldn't be a ground loop, but the result could be far more
catastrohpic, as it could take place at much higher speeds than a ground
lopp could.

For what it's worth.

Stuart Allsop
****************************************************************************
From Ric

I agree with your description of the typical groundloop.  Your speculation
about where Earhart may have landed the aircraft, while reasonable, is not
supported by the available evidence which seems to suggest a landing on the
hard, flat - and in places relatively smooth - coral of the reef flat that
surrounds the island.

Had the aircraft groundlooped upon landing to the extent that it flipped
over, as Angus suggested, it is hard to imagine how radio distress calls
could have been sent.  The transmitting antenna was on the top of the
fuselage.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:54:55 EDT
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: AE and the Benedictine Bottle

I've always used that picture as my "Noonan wasn't the only drunk"
argument...

Th' WOMBAT
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Ah yes.  The "Party In the Sky" hypothesis.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:00:44 EDT
From:         Troy
Subject:      Re: Welcome new forum subscribers

congrats on the publicity, Ric!  We are all rootin' for you and the
team.  I hope you come back and show them.  Success is the greatest
revenge.

--troy--
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Oh....we're not looking for revenge.....just victory.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:06:43 EDT
From:         Bob Brown
Subject:      Aviation Music

Here is an interesting website containing music with an avaition theme.  The
young lady has a very nice voice and the songs are nice too.   One of them is
about AE.

Kristin Hill's web site.
http://www.bigbayrecords.com/CDs/Soundwings.html

Her song about Amelia Earhart.
http://www.bigbayrecords.com/Soundbytes/SOUNDO.MP3

Walk easy on Mother Earth.
Tanka Chuntay Muhtoe Dalton (Chicora - Waccamaw)

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:07:37 EDT
From:         Shirley
Subject:      Grid map

Super idea, Ric

Would love to keep up on a map.

Shirley 2299
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:11:26 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Off topic Electra crash

Here is a website link from ...'Holcomb's Aerodrome'..., which has,
indirectly, some interesting connections with AE & her Electra 10E .

Don Neumann

Mint Canyon Crash
Address:http://www.qnet.com/~carcomm/wreck17.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:12:20 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: AE and the Benedictine Bottle

Two quick comments - first, ref the bottle - you don't suppose it's where the
navigation genie lives.....

Second, Yay! I got mine today as well.  What a great surprise.  With as busy as
you have all been to get the book out right now as well.  It looks great - I
haven't done the cover to cover thing yet, but soon!

ltm,
jon 2266
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:15:10 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      Re: Secret decoder and grid system for the map of Niku

To Ric--I also think that a grid system that we can all correlate to would be
a good idea....Those of us lurkers and non-expeditioners could read what you
say-check our maps for the grid location and check our picture...
Then we could all fantasize about what you are doing out there and why we all
couldnt go along.....AND all us older,smarter ones could thank God that you
guys are out there sweating and straining and we are back home with our feet
up and a G&T in our hands...

Good luck to you all..
Jim Tierney
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:28:33 EDT
From:         Barry Robinson
Subject:      AOL Front Page Coverage-Today

Congratulations Ric,
You have the front page coverage on the AOL home page today with the sat.
photo and the story.  It looks very good and should produce lots of responses
and hopefully some financing.
Well done.

Barry Robinson
#2114
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Holy Guacamole!  The "Satellite Photo" link on the news page goes directly to
the research bulletin on the TIGHAR website!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:38:06 EDT
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      S.S. Malolo

For those with the "where are they now" compulsion that I suffer from, here
is the lowdown on the S.S. Malolo, the ship AE returned to the mainland on
after the Hawaii accident.

Built in 1927 as Malolo for Matson Lines. In 1937 she was renamed Matsonia.
Home Lines bought her in 1948 and renamed her Atlantic. In 1954 she was
transferred to National Hellenic American Line (a Home Lines subsidiary) and
named Queen Frederica. She retained this name when the National Hellenic
American Line was bought by Chandris Lines in 1965, who continued to use both
company names. She was laid up in the River Fal in the early 1970s, but had a
charter to Sun Cruises in 1973. She was then laid up in Greece until burnt
out and then scrapped in 1978.

Smooth Sailing on the Nai'a,
Ron Dawson 2126
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Bummer.  I was sure it was going to end with something like, "She has now
been fully restored and is doing dinner cruises on Keuka Lake in the Finger
Lakes of New York State.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:43:01 EDT
From:         Stuart Allsop
Subject:      Re: A few wild ideas

Thanks for the reply, Ric.  I guess I had forgotten about that slight
detail of the reef surrounding the island!  Yes, that would, of course,
but a much more attractive landing area than the beach.

A couple of questions out of ignorance:

1) Does the water completely cover the coral reef at high tide, or is
there still a flat level surface mostly above the water?

2) What was the tide level estimated to have been during the most
probable window for AE to have landed?  Was it high, low, in between?

What I am aiming at here is to try to understand the conditions that AE
would have been facing.  If it was low tide, or if the coral is high and
dry even at high tide, then the reef would obviously be the first
choice.  But if the reef was covered, then she would probably have tried
for the beach instead, wouldn't she?

Once again, I apologize if I am just making you go back over ground that
has already been covered.  As a pilot, I've always had more than just a
passing interest in the AE mystery, but I wasn't aware of TIGHAR until
the recent new satellite photos hit the news, so I have a lot of
catching up to do!

Stuart Allsop
***************************************************************************
From Ric

At low tide much of the reef is dry but at high tide there is three to four
feet of standing water - so any landing on the reef flat would pretty much
have to be accomplished at or near low tide.

The exact tidal state on that reef between, say, 10 a.m. and noon on July 2,
1937 has been the topic of much discussion but without far more data than we
have at present it remains an open question.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:17:32 EDT
From:         Bill Carter
Subject:      Re: Earhart in Saipan (nonsense)

For what its worth, while looking for a scuba dive instructor, I spoke
to a dive master here in Boise, Idaho who told me he spent many years on
Saipan and diving in that part of the world.  This individual told me that
he knew a lot of people on Saipan who were there during the war who told him
that Earhart was never on Saipan and that the stories circulating that she
was are "garbage."  He assured me (without elaboration) that the people he
knew would have known if she was there and they assured him that she was
not.

This type of information is purely anecdotal and second hand but then again
it's consistent with the notion that the U.S. Government wouldn't bother to
send and untrained civilian on a detour from her round the world flight on
some sort of spy mission against a country that we weren't at war with and
with no way of returning to report what was seen.

LTM
Bill Carter #2313CE
***************************************************************************
From Ric

I get the sense that the Japanese-capture myth is pretty much dead.  Most of
the media I've been talking to don't want to even mention it as an
alternative hypothesis.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:19:45 EDT
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      Groundloops

Stuart Allsop wrote:

> .. a "ground loop" is a situation in which an aircraft on the ground
>turns too quickly (kind of like grossly oversteering a car into a
>skid), which causes the "outside" wing (the one on the outside of the
> turn) to rise and lift the undercarriage on that side of the
>aircraft off  the ground, thus causing the "inside" wing tip to
>touch the ground.

I confess to having never ground looped, but I have spent more
than 40 years preventing ground loops in a few planes,  J-3 Cub's to
B-747's, by counteracting the ground loop tendency.  As I recall, the
idea was to keep the 'inside wing' Down and the 'outside' wing Up.

Put yourself in the cockpit starting down the runway for take off..
There is a wind from the Left thus the plane wants to 'weather vane'
[turn Left to align itself with the wind].  Additionally, the
horizontal torque component from the prop & engine will add to
the 'nose left' force.

Don't you start with [up to] full Right rudder, easing off as
necessary as speed increases, and at the same time have lots of
Left aileron in, easing off to keep the wings level as speed
increases??

Left aileron means we want Down forces on left wing and
Up forces on the Right wing.  If as Stuart says, the outside
wing will rise in a ground loop, why are we applying force
to keep it Up?    RC  941
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:38:40 EDT
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Explore Nikumaroro

You've got to try this.  Go to:
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/missions/amelia_plane_010711.html
then click on the explore Nikumaroro feature.  It is a slow
download, but worth it.  What is the square feature on the reef, just to
the east of the broadest passage through the reef?
Dan Postellon  TIGHAR
***************************************************************************
From Ric

I'm not sure what you're looking at but it may be a coral head in the lagoon.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:13:46 EDT
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      Re: A few wild ideas

Stuart says that cartwheels are fairly rare and I'm sure he's right. However
most landings are on a smoother surface than a reef which may have
substantial potholes which could actually stop a wheel dead, producing the
high speed on the opposite side and increased lift as he describes. (My idea
was closer to Stuart's description in his final paragraph). The points I was
making re the weight and balance are that to overturn an aircraft with a
tricycle undercarriage subsequent to a ground loop is far more difficult as
the centre of mass is well behind the front wheel rather than almost
directly above the wheels in the case of the Electra. To overturn the
aircraft one then has to raise the whole aircraft about a radius from the
front wheel to the centre of mass. In the case of the Electra the centre of
mass would  rotate  about a  much more vertical radius and the aircraft
would not have to be lifted much to achieve rotation. Whilst the speed of
the aircraft might not be that high, the inertial effect of a twin engined
a\c would be considerable in suddenly stopping one wheel. Instead of ending
up on its nose, the aircraft then rotates about a line joining the wing tip
and the nose. The shorter radius to the centre of mass makes a flip a real
possibility.

Whether an accident or the surf, the pointers are to an inversion at some
time.The panel damaged by apparently a fuel-air explosion, could be
explained by the poorly secured battery shorting out after being inverted
and igniting leaking fuel. The eight (?) foot length of rusty metal
remembered by the small girl would correspond to one undercarriage leg,
perhaps the other having been ripped off as Stuart suggests.
Re the supposed post-loss transmissions, we have no definitive evidence of
such. Many are almost certainly hoaxes and it seems odd that conditions were
never good enough in the space of a week for a positively identifiable
transmission. Someone on (was it Hull?) had a radio receiver and picked up
no transmissions. If the authorities were quite sure of a transmission after
the time EA would have certainly run out of fuel (for flying) they would not
have stopped looking. The "Betty" transmission seems altogether unlikely. No
call sign, no repeated postion etc. No-one would mess about for a few hours
whilst they were using up their limited supply of fuel for operating the
engine.

It seems very strange that EA & FN didn't spell out an SOS on the beach if
indeed they were fit and able.

Angus Murray
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Okay, welcome to the forum.

First - the woman's initials were AE (for Amelia Earhart).

Second - You say, "Whether an accident or the surf, the pointers are to an
inversion at some time."  Certainly the aircraft could have been flipped at
some point but I'm aware of no pointers or evidence that it happened.

Third - You say, "The panel damaged by apparently a fuel-air explosion, could
be explained by the poorly secured battery shorting out after being inverted
and igniting leaking fuel."  I wonder how you know that the battery was
poorly secured. The damage could just as easily have been caused by water
hitting an immovable aircraft.  That hypothesis requires no speculation
beyond the scenario already suggested by other evidence.

Fourth - You say, "The eight (?) foot length of rusty metal
remembered by the small girl would correspond to one undercarriage leg,
perhaps the other having been ripped off as Stuart suggests."
Emily was 16 in 1940 and remembers something that was more like 12 feet in
length.  The gear legs of a Model 10 are about five feet long.  I think it's
probably excessively speculative to try to assign specific components to
Emily's recollections.  There is plenty of debris from a wrecked Electra that
could look like what she described.

Fifth - Your offhand dismissal of the more than 100 alleged post-loss radio
transmissions is based upon a number of judgements about what various people
would have done.  As we've so often pointed out on this forum, anytime
someone says "would have" it means thay are guessing.  We've looked at the
post-loss signals, including those reported by Betty, in great detail and we
find them very hard to dismiss.

Sixth -  You say, "Someone on (was it Hull?) had a radio receiver and picked
up no transmissions."  That's because the receiver was broken.  You're speaking
of John William Jones, the Burns Philp overseer on Hull. He also had no idea
that Earhart was attempting a 'round the world flight, had disappeared or
that a search was underway.

Seventh - As for spelling out SOS on the beach, that presupposes that they
were expecting an aerial search.  It's hard to imagine why that would be the
case.  As far as they knew, theirs was the only airplane within thousands of
miles.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:24:08 EDT
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Coaxial Cables

Did anyone ever come up with any more information regarding the two coaxial
cables found in 1996 during TIGHAR's NIKU III expedition?

   John Rayfield, Jr.
**************************************************************************
From Ric

Perhaps our resident Radio Historian, Mike Everette, would care to provide a
brief summary on what we've been able to learn about the cables (which are
not, as it turns out, true coax cables).
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:25:59 EDT
From:         Marty
Subject:      Re: Groundloops

Excuse me Mr. Allsop, but the cause of a groundloop on a taildragger is
because the center of gravity is behind the main gear. When the airplane
starts to veer off, the CG tends to make everything want to run straight,
thereby making the off-course excursion more severe. This results in the
OUTBOARD wing tip digging in, usually caused by the outboard main gear
collapsing inward. Been there, done that.

***************************************************************************
From Ric

(ouch)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:28:13 EDT
From:         Suzanne
Subject:      Re: AOL Front Page Coverage-Today

..while over at the UK's "Sunday Times," they are *very* optimistic for
you with this following caption!

    Earhart's lost plane 'discovered on Pacific reef'

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/07/15/stifgnaus03002.html

Suzanne
Stockton, California
(New to the forum, but I've been following the TIGHAR web site for a few
years.)
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Welcome aboard.  Well, I guess it sells newspapers.  Now I suppose we'll have
to find the darn thing.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:32:56 EDT
From:         Stuart Allsop
Subject:      Groundloops

I think we are just confusing terminology here.  What you are describing
is not really "groundloop recovery" at all, but rather the correct
procedure for a crosswind takeoff!  (Which will, of course, help keep
you away from a ground loop).

Yes, in a cross wind takeoff you certainly do want to keep your upwind
wing down, just as you describe, but that has nothing to do with the
"inside" and "outside" wing of a ground loop.  Until you actually start
a ground loop, the terms "inside wing" and "outside wing" are undefined,
and are not related to the upwind wing and the downwind wing (or
"windward" and "leeward" wings, if you prefer).

Perhaps it was my fault for not explaining it more clearly, but by
"outside wing" I mean the wing that is towards the outside of the turn
*once you are already in a ground loop*, and not the wing that is upwind
in a crosswind situation.  The terms as I used them only have meaning
once the aircraft starts turning.  As long as you are doing as you
correctly state (keeping the plane straight on takeoff), then there is
no such thing as an "inside" or an "outside" wing.  However, if you
don't do a good job of keeping the plane straight, then you do stand a
chance of groundlooping, and the terms I used now make sense.

In your example, imagine that you put in too much rudder and too little
left aileron, and as a result your left wing comes up and you start
turning to the right.  As you know, if you don't correct this situation
PDQ, then you will soon be starting a ground loop.  Now the left wing
becomes the "outside wing" (as you are turning to the right).  Since the
left wing now has a higher airspeed than the right wing, the left wing
tends to rise even more, which just worsens the situation, and tightens
the turn, which speeds up the inside wing even more, which tightens the
turn, which speeds up the wing.... etc.  Once the outside wing rises
enough, the inside wingtip touches the ground, and that large increase
in drag in the inside of the turn is all that is needed to make your day
go really sour: You groundloop to the right, with your left wing being
the "outside" wing.

On the other hand, if in your example you had applied too little rudder
and too much aileron, and not corrected in time, then the ground loop
would be to the left, and your right wing would be the outside wing.

In any event, my original point was that even if AE had groundlooped on
landing (of which I remain unconvinced), either on the reef or on the
beach, then it is not very probable that such a groundloop would have
caused the plane to cartwheel or flip over, since ground loops usually
only occur at low speeds, when there is not enough inertia to do so.
Damage is usually limited to the inside wingtip, and to the
undercarriage, as well as occasionally to props and engines on
multi-engine aircraft, if contact is made with the ground.  Once again,
this is usually only on the inside wing.

Did I do better job of explaining this time around?  I think the
confusion is only due my use of the term "inside" and "outside" wing as
related to ground loops, while you were using it to refer to the upwind
(or windward) wing, and the downwind (or leeward) wing.

Stuart Allsop
****************************************************************************
From Ric

It's worth mentioning that when AE wrecked the airplane in Hawaii in a really
vicious takeoff groundloop, it neither cartwheeled nor flipped.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:21:39 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Groundloops

While I am not a pilot (alas), my dad (79 in August) is, and has been
since 1942.  He still flies, and I fly with him from time to time - times to
be treasured, but I digress.  Dad started flying in tail draggers. and in
fact still flies a Cessna 120 that's about a month younger than me.  The last
time we flew, he was explaining to me that pilots not used to tail draggers
don't anticipate that when the tail  lifts and the plane of the propellor rotation
becomes perpendicular to the ground, the gyroscopic precession created by
changing the attitude of the propellor tends to make the axis of the gyroscope
(ie: propellor), and therefore the airplane, want to turn to one side or the
other (depending upon the direction of rotation of the gyroscope - er,
propellor).  To counter this, as the tail lifts rudder must be applied.
A pilot not anticipating this could be in for an interesting ride.  Tricycle
pilots don't generally have that concern, he said, because of the way the airplane
lifts off.  This may be easily demonstrated in one's own garage by dismembering
one's bicycle, and ... well, you get the idea.  I suspicion that this may have
been what happened in Hawaii when AE was trying to go the first time.
Not that she wasn't expecting it, but heavily loaded under full power ...
well, it could happen.

Anyway, this and three bucks will get you a really fine cup of coffee in some
places...
ltm,
jon  2266
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Groundloops can happen but I'm aware of no evidence to suggsest that such an
accident occurred during the speculative landing on the reef at Gardner
Island. The post-loss radio signals constitute a clue that, if such a landing
was made and if a groundloop did occur, it did not result in the collapse of
the starboard gear leg or the inversion of the aircraft.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:44:00 EDT
From:         Stuart Allsop
Subject:      Groundloops

Thanks for the correction, Marty.  Yep, it looks like I screwed up
there!  Of course, you are correct: the OUTSIDE wing can also dig in in
a ground loop, especially in a taildragger with (as you point out) the
CG behind the main gear.  I've seen it happen both ways, but so far(!)
it's never happened to me.   But thank you for keeping me honest!  I
stand corrected.

But I do think this discussion is a little pointless: we all seem to
agree that a groundloop is unlikely in the case of AE's Electra, for
many reasons, not least of which is the probability that the aircraft
was still upright and sitting on its landing gear after it came to a
stop, with at least one engine and radio still operational, in order to
transmit those "anomalous" signals.  It therefore seems to me that a
groundloop, cartwheel, flip, or any other maneuver involving substantial
damage to the aircraft is just not very likely.  It seems probable that
the aircraft would have been fairly much in tact, and with the cabin and
at least one engine clear of the water.

But I have to admit that I'm still a little skeptical of the conclusion
that they landed on the reef: If it would have been covered with a few
feet of water at the next high tide, within no more than a few hours
after the landing, then surely the only window for those transmissions
would be in the time until the water either covered the aircraft, or
moved it off the reef.  Once off the reef, it would sink fairly quickly:
a study of succesful ditchings shows that aircraft in the water rarely
stay afloat for more than a few hours, max, and usually sink within an
hour or less.  (Yes, some have stayed afloat for days, but they are the
exception rather than the rule.)

So, it seems that the window for making transmissions from the aircraft
would be no more than one full day, best case.

Which leads to my question: over what period of time were these
transmissions recorded?  Did they all happen within that period of time,
or were some of them recorded days later?  Is there a link to
transcripts of these transmissions?  I looked on the TIGHAR site, but I
didn't see them.  Maybe I just wasn't looking in the right place?

Stuart
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Normal tidal levels on the reef at Niku are only 3 to 4 feet at high tide -
not enough to disturb a parked Lockheed 10 unless there was significant surf.
 If the sea was calm for the first few days I can see no reason why the
airplane should have remained intact and alble to transmit during periods of
low tide when an engine could be run to keep the battery charged.  Our
nearly-complete but not yet posted analysis of the post-loss signals shows
that they were heard exclusively during the hours of darkness in the Central
Pacific, except for Betty's which were in the late morning hours.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:45:31 EDT
From:         Herman
Subject:      Re: Groundloops

When I read Stuart Allsop's explanation I suspect he has never groundlooped an
airplane. These things happen to taildraggers because of their CG being behind
their wheels. When one groundloops, the aircraft will (usually violently) turn
into the wind because of the wind pushing the tailplane (aggravated by the
gyroscopic effect of the propeller if this happens during take off when the tail
comes up). Because of the forward speed of the airplane the landing gear will
collapse (the wheel on the outside of the turn will probably go first) and you'll
slide to a stop on your belly if you're lucky. If not, the airplane will fall on
its wing which will then break because it hasn't been designed for this sort of
treatment. Incidentally, all this has been demonstrated the day before yesterday
at Brussels airport by a WW II vintage tail dragging Westland Lysander (870 hp
high wing tail dragger) which got out of control after landing in a 110/6
sidewind on runway 25L (which is the QFU for 250 degrees). The right hand gear
collapsed, the starboard wing broke and the airplane now is a shambles, having
taken 10 years to restore it to flying condition. They don't breed pilots who can
fly taildraggers any more.

LTM from Herman (who learned flying in a taildragger long ago and confessses
having groundlooped once)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:48:22 EDT
From:         Grady Cates
Subject:      Re: Explore Nikumaroro

I need your help on just were on the island that the wreckage is suspose to
be.  I have looked at the shot of the island and I haven't seen the
location.  Could you please give me a few pointers of just what to look for
please.  Yes I do know what a L-10 looks like before wrecked.

Many Thanks
Grady Cates
****************************************************************************
From Ric

You won't see anything in the full-sized version of the image.  Go to the
TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org and click on the satellite image to go to
the Research Bulletin that describes the entire chain of evidence.  Be sure
to continue to the second page of the bulletin.  All will be revealed.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:50:45 EDT
From:         Andy
Subject:      Re: AOL Front Page Coverage-Today

Excerpt from that article...

 <<<   Earhart's lost plane 'discovered on Pacific reef'
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/07/15/stifgnaus03002.html
>>>

"Gillespie plans to lead a diving expedition next month to the atoll -
previously known as Howland island."

Whoops!  How much confusion could that possibly stir up?!

LTM, who never confuses her Central Pacific islands.
Andy
***************************************************************************
From Ric

And I'll be held accountable for their mistakes.  It's okay.  I'm used to it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:52:55 EDT
From:         Vern
Subject:      Re: UK press

>From Phil Tanner
>Pleased to report TIGHAR makes reports in at least two of our four main
>Sunday broadshets today, the Observer and the Sunday Times.

This might have been a good time to try to get in something about our interest
in finding some of the Clancy family -- Re: The Gallagher stuff returned from
the Pacific after WWII.
************************************************************************
From Ric

They just picked up wire stories.  I never talked to them.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:58:12 EDT
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: A few wild ideas

> The panel damaged by apparently a fuel-air explosion, could be
> explained by the poorly secured battery shorting out after being inverted

Somehow I missed knowing the panel on the Electra was damaged. How did anyone
find that out?

A ground looping aircraft rotates around one wheel. As theat wheel moves in
whatever direction so does the center of rotation.

Putting the tandem gear beneath the center of mass reduces the moment of
rotation. (Less centrifugal force}

Alan
#2329
***************************************************************************
From Ric

2-2-V-1 is rather obviously damaged.  It has no finished edges and was blown
out of a larger sheet of aluminum by a fluid force that came from the inside
of the aircraft.  Two of the edges show abrupt failure in tension, one of the
edges shows failure due to fatigue after at least two cycles, and the fourth
edge may have been hacked free by human work.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:01:25 EDT
From:         Mike E.
Subject:      Re: Coaxial Cables

>Did anyone ever come up with any more information regarding the two coaxial
>cables found in 1996 during TIGHAR's NIKU III expedition?
>
>    John Rayfield, Jr.

The cables indeed look to be of a type that could be of the vintage we are
interested in; however, such cables were also used in WW2-era equipment,
such as might have been found at the LORAN station on Niku.

The connectors are of a type which first appeared circa 1936.  They are of
American design and manufacture.  These connectors, Howard P. Jones 101
series, a common pre-war form of coaxial fitting, were indeed used in period
avionics equipment; in fact, Bendix was quite fond of them.  We know that
NR16020 carried some variety of "Bendix direction finder" but the exact type
is far from established.

I made some inquiries a while back to Australian sources (radio museums) to
try and determine whether the "Yank" connectors might be found in British or
Australian gear, but had no success.

The cable itself is a type of shielded wire; the manufacturer may have been
Belden, but this is not established for certain. One common use for this
variety of cable, as described in period catalogs and specs,  was
"auto-radio antenna lead-in."  Don't be quick to jump to conclusions,
however.  It could have just as easily been used for audio wire or for
instrumentation; or, (and probably likely) have been some kind of test cable
or patch cord used in most any kind of electronic equipment.

The apparent length of one of the cables suggests to me that it probably was
some sort of test cable or patch cord.

For example, one WW2-era application for the connectors in question was the
Ferris Microvolter series of radio-frequency signal generators, which may
well have been found among the test gear used in the LORAN station.  The
Jones 101 series connector predates the Amphenol-designed "UHF" series of
coaxial fittings and was used as the output connector on this pre-war design
signal generator.  Two-way FM land-mobile radios made by the Link Radio
Corporation, designed prior to the War, also used the Jones 101 as a coaxial
antenna connector.  (Any LORAN veterans recall if any of the vehicles on
Niku had two-way radios, and what general type?) These Jones connectors
continued to be used by a number of manufacturers of radio equipment
throughout the 1940s.  They were also found in audio equipment.

I have contacted a couple of wire manufacturers who turned out such cable in
the 1930s; but the response I got was slow and incomplete.  Perhaps now that
interest is piqued in the AE story, another contact would light a fire under
them.  I will pursue this....

LTM (who is well connected)

and

73

Mike E.
***************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Mike.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:03:11 EDT
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      Groundloops

For Stuart Allsop

Your proposition was quite clear, but....

The fact is, be it a car or an airplane, single eng. or multi,
propellor or jet, tricycle or tail wheel, ALL will lean toward
the outside of any turn on the ground.  RC
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:05:00 EDT
From:         Ellie Ellis
Subject:      Re: Explore Nikumaroro

I saw you on TV Tuesday but was sorry you were preempted on Fox.  I am
excited about this new imaging and hope it is the smoking gun.  If it is, is
Amelia's relative alive yet that won't give DNA samples unless something positive
turns up?  If so, do you think she will believe you now and give one.  Good luck
on the expedition, Ellie Ellis
***************************************************************************
From Ric

We won't ask her for a DNA sample unless and until we have something to
compare it to.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:07:32 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Groundloops

       As you so properly stated, there is no evidence to indicate that
ground loop would have occured assuming Amelia did land on Gardner.  If there
were post landing radio transmissions a groundloop or at least one that cause
significat damage to the airplane is quite unlikely.

       All of these explanations of what causes a groundloop have elements
that are correct.  Basic physic can explain the dynamics of a ground loop but
it is the pilots failure to maintain directional control for any or all of
the reasons suggested that is the real cause.  I have a few thousand hours in
tail draggers and have managed to avoid a ground loop thus far.  That may be
a bit like gear up landing.  There are those that have and those that will.

       Its interesting to speculate but there is no way of knowing what kind
of a landing may or may not have been made at Gardner in 1937.  If there is
no way to know it is rather unimportant.  We know that wave action is the
most likely cause of the airplane ending up in the surf.

Dick Pingrey 908C
***************************************************************************
From Ric

I agree.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:09:49 EDT
From:         Troy
Subject:      Re: Groundloops

oh man....what a plum!  Ric, I can't wait until you post the post-loss
radio signals.....  I don't think an analysis like that has ever been
done and I have looked forward to seeing "the grid" since we first
started talking about it on the forum.

Will this come out before NikuIIII?

LTM
--troy--
TIGHAR #2348
****************************************************************************
From Ric

We'll try.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:50:13 EDT
From:         E. Karns
Subject:      Post-loss messages

this is wonderful and thank you so  much.  can you tell  me how I can find
the  messages that were received after she went down on the Itasca and
elsewhere?
**************************************************************************
From Ric

We haven't completed that study yet but you might look at the Research
Bulletin "Betty's Notebook"
http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Documents/Notebook/notebook.html
for an example of one of the most striking alleged post-loss messages.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:13:05 EDT
From:         Michel
Subject:      Add'l reef imagery

Little late I guess, but with all this recent talk of coral reef imagery, do
you guys know about this?

http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgibrs/reefs.pl

Happened to be talking to an old girlfriend who did graduate work in tropical
ecology and she immediately mentioned this.  Might be a way to corroborate
what you just got with some additional images; I haven't tried to sort
through what they have or how to get to it, but it seems certain they would
have some of 'Niku'.

Michel
************************************************************************
From Ric

Not as far as we know.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:15:10 EDT
From:         Vern
Subject:      Re: UK press

>From Ric
>They just picked up wire stories.  I never talked to them

I realized that.  I was just suggesting that it might be a good time to try
to bring  the Clancy Search to attention in the UK... if someone could see a
way to accomplish that.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:21:04 EDT
From:         Dave Porter
Subject:      grid map

I think that the grid map is a fantastic idea.  Would it be possible to
include a scale so that we armchair expeditioneers might get an accurate
idea of the distances involved?

Also:  Originally, one benefit of the satellite image was going to be the
ability to geo-reference Niku so that you guys could use GPS equipment
on-site.  Has that been done, and if so, will it give you the ability to go
directly to the anomaly?

LTM, Dave Porter, 2288  (who hopes that with all the new folks hanging
around, my days as the only Detroit TIGHAR will soon be coming to an end)
****************************************************************************
From Ric

The grid map will divide the island into blocks that are 140 meters (about
450 feet) square on a map that will be 18 x 24 inches.

We're still working on the GPS/georeferencing system, but we won't need that
to go to the anomaly.  Being so close to the Norwich City should make it easy
to find (famous last words).
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:23:34 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Groundloops

Herman,

       Pilots were not any better in the old days.  The difference is that we
all flew tail draggers because that was what we had available to fly.  We
didn't know there was an easier design called a nose wheel type airplane or
if we did we couldn't afford to fly one any way.  Thus we just went ahead and
learned in the tail dragger and didn't give it much thought.  Now days
everyone tells new pilots that tail draggers are hard to fly so they believe
that it must be true.  If no one ever told then they were hard to fly and
students were taught in tail draggers they would learn just as fast to fly
them as we did.

        I leasrned to fly in the 1950s and most people flew tail draggers at
that time.  Most of us soloed in 8 to 10 hours.  Again, it is not because we
were better back then but now we have to cover so many added things in
addition to take off and landing that it takes longer.  I soloed three
students during the past two weeks at between 15 and 20 hours each.  All
three are good pilots but we couldn't get all the required things done and
get take off and landing mastered any sooner then 15 hours.  It takes a lot
of time just to master radio procedures and stay out of the way of the
commercial jets that were in the pattern with us.

Dick Pingrey 908C
****************************************************************************
From Ric

I still refer to tailwheel airplanes as having "conventional gear."
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:24:30 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: UK press

But Phil's right about this being a good time to re-try our attempts to find
Gallagher connections.  What do you propose to do, Phil?
********************************************************************
From Ric

I think that was Vern.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:27:15 EDT
From:         Mike E. the Radio Historian
Subject:      More on the cables

For what it may be worth, here is more to add to the body of knowledge
regarding the "coaxial cables:"

I have personally examined one of these artifacts.  The connectors are
intact on both ends.  Their nickel or nickel-silver plating is in pretty
good shape, discolored to be sure, but not corroded.  They showed few signs
of pitting, such as might have been caused by sand.

The tin-lead solder used to attach them to the cable itself was likewise in
reasonable shape, with some, but not excessive sign of corrosion or erosion
such as might result from long-term salt water immersion.

The connectors exhibited no sign of marine growth.  Indeed, the connectors
were in good enough shape, that I could easily have desoldered, cleaned up
and reused them.

(I digress for a moment: A number of years ago, I found a vacuum tube
sticking out of the sand on a beach here in NC, washed in with the tide...
it was a US Navy type 5Y3WGT, and I have no idea where it may have come
from; perhaps thrown off a passing ship.  The tube had been in the water a
while; the glass envelope was intact, the ruggedized bakelite base was very
slightly  eroded and the solder in the base pins was a little corroded.  I
could not resist wire-brushing the pins and testing it.  Weak, but
functional....)

The connectors were intact and not severely bent or deformed.  I actually
checked this by mating one of them to a female connector such as they were
designed to be used with.  The outer ferrule easily screwed onto the other
connector without protest from out-of-round or damaged threads. The ferrule
was missing from the other, as I recall; the cable, as found, was broken in
two pieces.  In this event it would have been easy for the ferrule to be
lost.

These connectors did not appear to have been sheared off of anything.  No
residue of a mating connector was found attached to them, if I examined them
in the same condition as found, and I believe I did.  They had to have been
removed from whatever they were attached to, by disconnecting them in the
normal manner.  This type of screw-on fitting does not normally unscrew
itself.

To anticipate a question: This type connector is not designed to be "safety
wired" in the manner of many modern avionics devices.

All this isn't to say the connectors and cables are not from NR16020; but if
they were, someone just about had to have removed them from the wreck.

To anticipate another question: The evidence regarding AE's radio equipment
includes an anecdotal reference to a technician "repairing" the rig by
reattaching a disconnected antenna lead to the Western Electric receiver
mounted under the copilot's seat, following her ferry of NR16020 to the West
Coast prior to the first attempt.  This anecdote is not evidence with regard
to these connectors, because the WE-20 receiver did not use this type
connector for antenna input.  Rather, a spring-loaded push-type binding post
was used.  Bendix equipment, however, did make use of these connectors.

LTM (who feels a little wrecked, herself, after Saturday night)

and

73

Mike E.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:31:46 EDT
From:         Tom MM
Subject:      2-2-V-1

Some time back, you published a list of aircraft losses in or near the
Phoenix Group.  I know you have made efforts to match 2-2-V-1 to various
aircraft, but I'm curious about how many of the aircraft types (of those
lost in that area) you actually have been able to go over.  The one which
caught my eye at the time was the following (whose route may have passed
close to or over Niku).  The chance of floating debris from distant
crashes/downings reaching Niku may be small, but probably cannot be
eliminated as a possible source.

October 20, 1943 USN PB4Y-1 BuNo 32102 of VB-106 Missing enroute from
Canton to Funafuti. Nine crew.

TOM MM
****************************************************************************
From Ric

A PB4Y-1 was basically a Navy B-24D.  We've had remarkable access (including
the use of a "cherry-picker") to the B-24D "Strawberry Bitch" at the USAF
Museum and we can't find any place that even comes close to matching 2-2-V-1.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:33:51 EDT
From:         Chris
Subject:      Was the area in question searched before?

Was the area off the reef searched by divers before where the fisherman say
they saw wreckage??

If not, why??

Chris

***************************************************************************
From Ric
Not.  Some of the reef edge south of the shipwreck was searched by our divers
in 1989 but on the day they were in the area north of the wreck the ocean was
too rough to permit close approach to the reef.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:39:44 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: a few wild ideas

I got to thinking about what Angus suggested regarding the bulb base, so I did a
little digging on the 'net.  It seems flashbulbs came into common use in the
early 1930's, and the first flashbulb produced in the UK was the Sashalite. Made
by General Electric, I think.  The Sashalite was equipped with exactly the same
type base as found on Niku - and in fact an advertisement from Kodak publication
"Snapshots at Night" (published in 1934) has a picture of the bulb.  The base is
an exact match, for shape.  In fact, in the text of the ad, there's a disclaimer
that it should not be used in a regular electrical appliance - that it should be
used only in the appropriate battery unit.  This implies to me that the base of
the bulb is the same configuration as a regular light bulb from the UK for the era.

I think Angus has hit the nail on the head with this one.  That would go a long
way to explaining why it was found where it was.  After all a used flash bulb is
just so much trash.

The site can be found at
http://www.dhios.demon.co.uk/Flashbulbs/Bulbs/Sasha-ad.htm .

ltm
jon  2266
****************************************************************************
From Ric

I really really like this hypothesis. Maybe Gallagher took his own "Sashalite
image" of the skull. (sorry)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:41:03 EDT
From:         Phil Tanner
Subject:      Radio Austrailia

You'll probably have to move quickly to get it as the soundfiles are changed
at least once a day, but there is audio of a Radio Australia report on the
latest developments at http://www.abc.net.au/ra/pacbeat/audio.htm
Includes remarks by Ric and brief voice recording of AE herself.

I'm sending this off at in the small hours of the morning US East Coast time
(0745 gmt) - the report will probably be there for another 12 hours maximum.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:51:49 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: a few wild ideas

> I really really like this hypothesis. Maybe Gallagher took his own
> "Sashalite image" of the skull. (sorry)

Which brings us back to the need to try to find Gallagher's effects, and this
really would seem to be a good time to get some attention in the UK, but how?
*************************************************************************
From Ric

While I agree that this latest hypothesis about the lightbulb base would seem
to increase the chances that Gallagher took a photo of the bones - and
there's no doubt that we'd really like to see such a photo -  how could
finding it now impact our expedition plans?  Is this something we should be
devoting a lot of time to now?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:52:35 EDT
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Add'l reef imagery

Last time I checked, they didn't have Nikumaroro/Gardner Island.  The NASA
and Landsat photos are much poorer resolution that the spaceimaging data we
have.  Daniel Postellon  TIGHAR #2263 (I used to be a Detroit TIGHAR, but I
moved to Grand Rapids.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 07:45:56 EDT
From:         Dick Evans
Subject:      Re: Coaxial Cables

For Mike E.

You wondered if any of the Loran crew remembers had two-way radios on
the mobile equipment. There were no-such radios on any of the equipment
during construction or long range operation. I couldn't tell you if there
was any such equipment during the dismantling of the station.

Dick Evans
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 07:47:41 EDT
From:         Dick Evans
Subject:      Re: Groundloops

All this talk about ground loops. Has anyone considered that one of the
wheels may have dropped into one of the small crevasses on the coral reef
while the plane was moving in a slow motion?

Dick Evans
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Coulda happened, but the point is that there is no evidence that a groundloop
did happen.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 07:50:48 EDT
From:         Mike Holt
Subject:      Re: a few wild ideas

> While I agree that this latest hypothesis about the lightbulb base would seem
> to increase the chances that Gallagher took a photo of the bones - and
> there's no doubt that we'd really like to see such a photo -  how could
> finding it now impact our expeditions plans?  Is this something we should be
> devoting a lot of time to now?

As long as you have all this in the public eye, why not give it a
shot?  In six months no one will be interested.  Someone in the
UK would have to actually do the work, I would think.

Mike Holt
***************************************************************************
From Tom King

> Is this something we should be devoting a lot of time to now?

Not we expeditionaries, but others on the Forum, sure.  I wouldn't expect
impact on the expedition plans unless a photo showed up that showed where the
skull was excavated, but there are lots of folks who AREN'T involved in
expedition planning, and this would be useful research for them to pursue.

TK
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Agreed.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 08:09:56 EDT
From:         Andy
Subject:      2-3-V-2 Plexiglas

I myself have been asking the same question about artifact 2-3-V-2, the
curved plexiglas.  How much effort would be required to compare this artifact
with the plexiglas on all the other aircraft types that went down within
450nm of Niku?

Would TIGHAR view this object as a nearly smoking gun if NR16040 was the only
aircraft lost within 636000 sq nm from which the artifact could have
originated?

Finally, is there any further analysis that can be performed on the artifact
in an attempt to determine its approximate manufacture date (ie: pre war/post
war)?

LTM,
Andy
****************************************************************************
From Ric

We've identified 26 aircraft types known to have been in service at one time
or another within 500 miles of Niku.  Researching the thickness and curvature
of every window or every one of those types would be a mammoth job and still
wouldn't prove anything except that 2-3-V-1 is probably not form one of those
types.

We know of no further analysis that could date the artifact.  The formulation
of polymethyl methacrylate (plexiglas) was the same throughout the 1930s and
'40s, and remains pretty much the same today.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 08:11:42 EDT
From:         Tim Smith
Subject:      Happy Birthday AE

Hey, kids, don't forget: July 24 is Amelia's birthday.  She is 104 today.
LTM (who doesn't think birthdays are very much fun any more)

Tim Smith
1142 CE
**************************************************************************
From Terry Simpson

Forum,Ric,well today is Amelia's birthday(104).  If I could get a
message to her(Fantasy)I would tell her"HANG IN THERE" you got a TIGHAR
on your trail,the dudes name is Gillespie and he don't quit."HAPPY
BIRTHDAY AMELIA"" and thank you Ric for all your hard work,its very much
appreciated.                                                  T.L
Simpson #2396(LTM)Who never gave up)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:04:35 EDT
From:         Vern
Subject:      Re: a few wild ideas

>Is this something we should be devoting a lot of time to now?

It's just that we're in one of those rare windows of opportunity when there
is already media attention on the Earhart search in the UK.  If we could
just see some way to get some attention on our interest in finding some of
the Clancys.  Might there be a way to get the media in the UK interested in
the idea that there might be some valuable information right there in
England -- If we just knew where to look?

Phil....  Do you see any possibility??
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:13:13 EDT
From:         Kerry Tiller
Subject:      Re: 2-2-V-1

> A PB4Y-1 was basically a Navy B-24D.  We've had remarkable access (including
> the use of a "cherry-picker") to the B-24D "Strawberry Bitch" at the USAF
> Museum and we can't find any place that even comes close to matching 2-2-V-1.

I feel guilty making a forum posting after having let my TIGHAR membership
lapse when I moved from Japan to the U.S. (I'll fix that here soon) but here
goes anyway: Obviously, I don't want 2-2-V-1 to match up to a PB4Y-1. But,
if I'm not mistaken, (there's a dangerous phrase) the major difference
between the navy plane and the B-24D was the tail. The PB4Y had a single
vertical stab. I certainly concur that if you had a piece of skin from a
PB4Y, that it would most likely have a counterpart on a B-24D: except for
the last few feet of the airplane. Can we rule out the possibility that
2-2-V-1 did NOT come from the tail of what ever aircraft it came from
(including the control surfaces) on its own merit?

LTM
Kerry Tiller (ex#2350 - can I get my old number back?)
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Of course you can have your old number back, even if you are a bit confused
about the Consolidated Model 32.  The Army B-24D and the Navy PB4Y-1 were
essentially identical.  The straight-tailed variant you're thinking of was
the PB4Y-2 "Privateer" that entered service in late 1944.  By then the war
had moved well west of Canton Island we know of no Privateers that were ever
based - much less lost - there.

We cannot, however, elimante the possibility that 2-2V-1 came from the tail
of an airplane.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:16:53 EDT
From:         Gavin
Subject:      Re: UK press

I'm a UK based journalist who logged on to the forum after the recent wave
of news about the satellite image. I note your interest in help from the
UK. I'm more interested in the diving side of things (I'm a diving photo
journalist), but I may be able to help. Let me know what you are after as I
haven't kept up with all the developments.

Gavin
**************************************************************************
From Ric

Vern?  Perhaps you could provide a briefing for Gavin and anyone else who may
be able to help.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:20:07 EDT
From:         Doug Brutlag
Subject:      Oshkosh 2001

I've finished packing up the land yatch for our annual mecca to the
Oshkosh airshow.  I'll be keeping my eyes open for any AE groups who
might be there including the crashed-in-the pacific group if there's a
chance they might be there for some exposure & publicity.  I don't
expect to see Finch...she's was old news a long time ago.

Have you ever considered having a booth at Oshkosh?  It would fit in
well with all the other activities as well as get your message out &
perhaps pick up more bretheren.  Yeah, I know it's darned expensive for
space there.  Just a thought.

Doug  Brutlag #2335
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Been there, done that.  Talked myself hoarse for very little return but saw
enough triple snaprolls to last me a lifetime.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:24:57 EDT
From:         Charlie Sivert
Subject:      Amelia's Birthday Present

    My birthday present to Amelia,(in memory), is a contribution of
$100. toward expenses of Niku IIII.  Please charge my credit card
number for that amount.  I hope that others on the Forum will be
willing to send a "present", too.

Charlie Sivert, 0269E
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Thank you Charlie.  Good timing.  We just learned that a potential clothing
and equipment sponsor that we had hoped would be providing both for the team
will NOT be helping out, so we'll need to buy some stuff we had not counted
on.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:42:57 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Groundloops

To Dick Pingrey

I didn't mean taildraggers (sorry, classic landing gear aircraft) were or are
more difficult to fly. In the air they behave like any other aircraft. The
difference is in their handling on the ground. Because of their center of gravity
( CG) being behind the main wheels, they can be a  handful to keep them in a
straight line on the ground and steering takes a lot of anticipation. Taking off
and landing a tail dragger takes different techniques than nosewheel aircraft
which are kept in a straight line by using the feet to keep the nosewheel on the
runway centerline. Tail draggers are more difficult to handle because the pilot's
feet move the rudder, not a nosewheel on the ground. Therefore taxiing is the
most difficult part of flying an aircraft with classic landing gear. At take off
the propeller wash, the propeller's asymmetric thrust, its gyroscopic effect and
sidewind demand more concentration from the pilot of a taildragger than in a
nosewheel aircraft. Once in the air aircraft behave alike. They are designed to
fly and they do so beautifully.

Landing a tail dragger is also different because normally it requires a three
point landing. this is somewhat more demanding than in a nose wheel aircraft
which can be held off until it lands itself on the main gear, the pilot having
directional control as soon as the nose wheel is on the ground. This is not
always the case with tail wheel because the airplane remains vulnerable to
sidewind. This can become troublesome in a strong sidewind.

The reason for all this is that aircraft with classic gear were designed in an
era when aircraft took off and landed against the wind. With the advent of
heavier aircraft (the four engine bombers of WW II) weight increased and first
taxyways, then runways were invented. Today it can be a handful to keep a
tailwheel airplane in a straight line on a runway after landing in a strong
sidewind as any pilot will tell you who flies one of the vintange airplanes. As
speed drops, the rudder becomes less effective and eventually lowers into the
shadow of the wings where it has hardly any effect at all. All you then have to
keep directional control is differential braking. If you have any brakes, that
is. That is why aircraft like the DC-3 (C47 or C-53), the Lockheed 10 (C-36) or
the Lockheed 18 (C-60) were landed on their main gear instead of making three
pointers. On the other hand, tail draggers are better suited for landing on
unprepared surfaces than nosewheel aircraft because nosewheels like to collapse
on rough terrain. That's why bush pilots prefer tail wheels. I'm sure the older
generation of pilots is familiar with all this, having learned to fly with tail
wheels.

Today there is a new generation of young pilots who learned to fly on nosewheel
aircraft only and have no tailwheel experience at all. Air Canada tells me it
takes five hours to convert a nosewheel pilot to fly their Lockheed 10 Electra.

Lufthansa tells me it takes them the same amount of time to convert a pilot to
their vintage three motor tailwheel Ju-52 (they acquired an Me-108 four seater
single to train Ju-52 pilots who may have thousands of hours on Boeings or
Airbusses but never ever flew a tailwheel type.

If I tried to expand on this tailwheel business, I did so for the benefit of the
non pilots on the forum who may be wondering what we pilots are talking about.
****************************************************************************
From Ric

One of the things non-pilot subscribers to the forum quickly learn is that
pilot subscribers are always eager to launch into long and involved off-topic
discussions about how to fly an airplane. (I'm as guilty as anyone.)  Let's
move on.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:52:05 EDT
From:         Stuart
Subject:      Re: Amelia's Birthday Present

I noticed that you mentioned certain items of equipment and
clothing that you'll need for the expedition, and I was thinking that it
might be an idea to post on the web site a complete list of ALL the
items that you need, since it might turn out that many of your members
(or even casual visitors to your web site) might already have some of
it, and be willing to lend it to you for the expedition, or even to
donate it to you.

That way you might be able to avoid the expense of buying some of the
stuff.

Personally, I'd probably be willing to donate or loan stuff that I own
and that might be useful to you, but since I have no idea what you need,
I don't know what to offer!

Stuart
***************************************************************************
From Ric

That's a generous offer but most of what we had hoped would be donated and
will now have to be purchased is personal clothing for team.  Not exactly the
sort of thing that is appropriate to borrow.  We do, however, have a plan in
the works that should let members help out in a way that is a win-win for
everyone.  Stay tuned for details.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:45:00 EDT
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Off Topic: Wreck of HMS HOOD Located

Saw on CNN.com this morning that a British expedition has located the remains
of the battlecruiser HMS Hood, lost sixty years ago in a brief but fierce
engagement with the German battleship Bismark.  If you want to learn more
they have a website at http://www.channel4.com/hood/

LTM,
Russ
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:45:53 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: UK press

Vern, Gavin -- Our forthcoming book, "Amelia Earhart's Shoes" (Altamira
Press, October 2001; see www.altamirapress.com) deals in some detail with
Gallagher and the bones discovery.  Perhaps some interest could be generated
in the UK using its release as a trigger.  I could get the publisher to send
advance review copies, I'm pretty sure.  Let me know.  I'll be off-line for a
couple of days, though, travelling and with serious computer problems.

Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Jul 2001 17:30:39 EDT
From:         Chris Kennedy
Subject:      Re: Off Topic: Wreck of HMS HOOD Located

here is also an excellent Hood website:   www.hmshood.com

--Chris Kennedy
***************************************************************************
From Ric

I wonder what other ships or planes that aren't really lost can be found for
fun and profit?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:29:28 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Moving On.

       I agree, it is time to move on from tail draggers but I can't pass one
last thought to Herman.  I am certainly glad I did't read you explanation
about tail wheel airplanes while I was learning to fly or it would have taken
me twice as long to solo.  I though they were quite easy to taxi, takeoff and
land.  No one told me it was hard.  They just told me what I needed to do to
make things work and that is what I did.

Dick Pingrey 908C
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:51:15 EDT
From:         Colin Cobb
Subject:      Re: UK press

Im a complete newbie to the amelia earhart case,ive known about the story
for a while and i seen the program about the gentleman who dug up the
possible burial site in saipan,where he only found the red sweat band and no
body and today i seen the program with diane keaton and rutger hauer(cant
spell) which i dont know how you guys rate that one.Anyway how did you trace
the fact that she might of ditched at gardner island,and has the possiblity
of her ditching at sea and having gone down with the plane been now
completely ruled out.I was just keen to know because from a novice point of
view i guess the probability of her crashing at sea is far greater than
finding an island in the pacific.Im only saying this because i was an avid
follower of the search for noahs ark and was on the team to find possible
remains.Sadly because of trouble in the area the expedition never took
place,but it was very difficult because of such conflicting sightings of the
ark and usually it turns out that there is a simple answer to it all.Its
just as you said on your web site"the more we know the less we know".I have
been a researcher on Donald Campbell for years and when they raised his jet
powered boat bluebird from the lake in march there was immense speculation
as to what happened to the body,missing for 34 years.The most popular
theories was he was thrown out of the boat,or he was sucked into the jet
engine,he disintegrated on impact,he was lying under the boat and finally he
wasnt in the cockpit at but now living in south america with lord
lucan,elvis and the horse shergar.Finally though the mystery was solved and
it proved to be none of those theories.Quite simply when the bluebird
somersaulted out of control at 300mph and as soon as it hit the water Donald
came straight out the very millisecond it impacted.So you may say why on
earth did they not find the body as the divers spent weeks at the crash
site,well the simple answer is and probabley the most boring one that they
simply missed him, and he lay at that spot for 34 years,with his overalls
still on and a cigarette lighter and small change in his pocket as well his
st christopher necklace still round his neck.I sometimes hope that maybe
amelias plane maybe lying at the bottom somewhere,as then like the bluebird
be raised and put on display as a tribute to a great national hero.
If you wish for any more info on bluebird or campbell,photos or movies
please let me know.This though is an earhart site and thats what im here to
find out about.
I look forward to your replies.
Colin Cobb( an irish man living in england)
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Colin, I'd suggest that you cruise the TIGHAR website (www.TIGHAR.org) for
answers to your questions about why we think what we do.  If you then have
specific questions I'll be happy to try to answer them.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:57:25 EDT
From:         Kerry Tiller
Subject:      Re: Off Topic: Wreck of HMS HOOD Located

> From Ric
>
> I wonder what other ships or planes that aren't really lost can be found for
> fun and profit?

Ric, that sounds just a tad bitter. Frustrated at least. WHEN you find the
remains of NR16020 and/or its last occupants, It'll make the front page in
every paper in the world barring the break out of a major war on the same
day. I didn't know the Hood had been found until I saw the post on this
forum. Everybody has his passion. When the final results are in, the
difficulty of success in your endeavor will be appreciated. Your day is
coming.

Kerry Tiller
****************************************************************************
From Ric

I'm not bitter about anything Kerry.  The public response to our efforts has,
by and large, been extremely gratifying.  I have no complaints.  I just get a
kick out of all these projects to go look at old wrecks in known locations
for apparently no reason other than to generate media material.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Jul 2001 20:41:30 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Another recreation

Look what I found in the mail from OSHflash AirVenture 2001 today. I
deleted the items of no use to you or the forum but I am sending the one
on Amelia

AMELIA EARHART RIDES AGAIN
While much of the world's fascination with Amelia Earhart lies in her
disappearance, some would rather celebrate her accomplishments.  To that
end, Greg Herrick, president of Historic Aviation, purchased a 1927 AVRO
Avian and recruited Amelia look-alike Carlene Mendieta from Sonoma,
Calif., to recreate Earhart's famed 1928 solo flight across the United
States.  Her round-trip journey will begin in Rye, N.Y., reach its
westernmost point in Glendale, Calif., and return to New York.  Mendieta
is a low-time pilot with about 300 hours, but has a fascination with
vintage aircraft and says she's honored to be chosen to commemorate
Earhart's famous transcontinental accomplishment.

   NOTE: Check out AVweb's pictures of the Avian and Mendieta at
   <http://www.avweb.com/oshkosh/osh2001/gallery2/>, and for more
   information about the flight, go to <http://www.ameliaflight.com/>.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Jul 2001 20:46:34 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Found Earhart

I went to the satellite website that someone sent us recently and was
"exploring" Niku with a magnifying glass. And, VOILA', I found an image of
AE's face. Hard to believe, but the dark and light areas make a very
noticeable face. It is on the southern shore just west of the southeastern
tip of the island.

Wow, was I surprised!

Yours,
Dave Bush
#2200
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Look closer.  D.B. Cooper is in the trees of Nutiran and Jimmy Hoffa is on
Kanawa Point.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:35:52 EDT
From:         Jim "Mule" Harvey
Subject:      Re: Off Topic: Wreck of HMS HOOD Located

> From Ric
>
> I'm not bitter about anything Kerry.  The public response to our efforts has,
> by and large, been extremely gratifying.  I have no complaints.  I just get a
> kick out of all these projects to go look at old wrecks in known locations
> for apparently no reason other than to generate media material.

Kerry's right.  It sounded bitter.  Or maybe just mean, but certainly
unwarranted.  I'm sure that you could phrase your opinion in such a way that
did not label the efforts of other explorers as media stunts.  By doing so,
you are presuming to know what is in the hearts of those who did the work.
While famous wrecks such as the Titanic, Bismarck and HMS Hood were not
'lost' in the same sense that NR16020 is (i.e. the general location is
known), the passion of those involved in locating the exact final resting
place of those wrecks is not necessarily less than your passion for locating
a certain missing Lockheed product.

Congratulations: Your task is more difficult than theirs.   Is that why it's
so easy for you to belittle the hard work that has made those teams proud?

I believe that your years of research and painstaking documentation have
made a very strong case, and I sincerely hope that you find a big radial
engine with an identifiable serial number stuck in a 'finger' of the reef on
Niku (or a similar AIA).  When you do, a 'real' mystery will have been
solved by sound methodology and an almost religious personal commitment to a
project others may think an eccentric waste of time and money.  On that day,
I hope you hear "Congratulations" rather than "Big deal.  Didn't a satellite
find that?".  And when you stand up to take the credit (and rightfully so),
try not to do it at someone else's expense.

Short version:  If you don't have something nice to say . . .

Jim "Mule" Harvey
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Let's get something straight.  I am not an explorer and neither are those who
relocate shipwrecks.  "Explorer", like "hero", is a word that has been
cheapened by misuse. Explorers are people who go places nobody (from their
culture) has gone before and today there are very few such places left on the
planet.  True exploration is no longer the realm of the daring and
resourceful individual but the domain of the government program.

As I have said many times, finding out what really happened to Amelia Earhart
is not, in itself, important - anymore than finding the Titanic or the
Bismark or the Hood is important.  What is important is the process by which
we try to find the truth.  I have no passion for finding Amelia but I am
totally intrigued and captivated by the fact that by working together and
using our brains we can develop and demonstrate ways of seeking out truth
that can benefit everyone who cares to participate in the process. Maybe
we'll find the Grail at the end of the quest and maybe we won't - but the
real value is in the journey.

No, I'm not in the least bitter about searches to relocate shipwrecks or
attempts to recreate famous voyages or flights.  I wish them all success.  I
just want to make it clear that we're doing something different.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:27:11 EDT
From:         Mike Holt
Subject:      Re: Off Topic: Wreck of HMS HOOD Located

I didn't see what Ric said as having been bitter or unhappy in any
way.  It was, to me, an invitation to find other research projects.
At some point, Amelia and Fred will be found.  There's a huge
collection of talent and enthusiasm in this project, and it will
not go away just because the Electra is located.  What's next?

The point of this exercise is the exercise.  All this power might
have been directed at finding the Surcouf, and it would be just
as much fun.

LTM (who doesn't read French)
****************************************************************************
From Ric

I still want to find l'Oiseau Blanc.  Now THERE's an historically important
missing airplane.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:28:47 EDT
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Found Earhart

Ah yes Dave, but have you seem the "letters and numbers on the reef" just
left of the south (smaller) passage, about half way to the water?

I had to look at it a couple of times to see if Ric was pulling our legs..

Th' WOMBAT
*************************************************************
From Ric

You guys.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:30:12 EDT
From:         Vern
Subject:      Re: UK press

For Gavin...   and all.

The Clancy Search.  I'll make this as brief and to the point as I can
manage.  In view of the attention span of the media -- Time's a-wastin'!!

There is reason to believe that someone in the UK may still have some of
Gerald Bernard Gallagher's personal effects that were sent back to England
at the end of WWII..   If so, there might be information that would help to
determine exactly where on the island the partial skeleton and other
artifacts were found in 1940.  That was three years after the disappearance
of Amelia Earhart and her navigator Fred Noonan.

There is reason to believe that Gerald Gallagher was into photography.  A
flashbulb might fit and he may have photographed the things found in 1940
and the site where they were found.  Among the items returned to England
after Gerald's death in 1941 (only a year later) was a photo album, a packet
of loose photographs and some photographic negatives.  It seems to me
unlikely that the photo album would have been discarded.  Someone in the
family may have it stashed away and perhaps some of the other stuff.  our
problem is to locate and get in touch with someone in the family.  We have
no leads at all.

Gerald B. Gallagher was the son of Gerald Hugh Gallagher and Edith Annie
Clancy.  Edith Clancy Gallagher had instructed that her sons belongings be
returned to her sister, Miss Clancy at "Clanmere" in Malvern,
Worcestershire.  Julie Clancy operated a nursing home called "Clanmere" in
Malvern.  Edith had been engaged in some kind of war related work in London
and was using Barclays Bank for a postal address.

We presume that the four tin trunks were delivered to Julie Clancy in
Malvern and that Gerald's effects eventually ended up with his mother.
Where?  We have no idea.  Gerald's mother, Edith Clancy Gallagher had
several sisters and possibly a couple of brothers.  We have virtually no
knowledge of his father's side of the family.  The Clancy family seems the
place to look for any of Gerald's things that might still exist.  The trick
is to find and contact some member of that particular Clancy family.  By
this time, they could be anywhere.  We can only assume that at least some of
them are still somewhere in the UK.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:31:39 EDT
From:         Chris Strohmeyer
Subject:      Re: Off Topic: Wreck of HMS HOOD Located

I must agree with Jim, I felt the sarcasm too. I read  your mail just after
examining the new photos of the Hood and thought in no way was this a
publicity stunt, but the same spirit that you have in solving a mystery.
Granted yours is more difficult, and I back you 100%, but  you can imagine
if you were in their place you'd be elated over the find, not because of the
publicity but because of the thrill of the find, as I think they are.
And I think we all understand the phrase "No bucks, No Buck Rogers".
My 2 cents, Chris Strohmeyer
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:32:27 EDT
From:         Bill Zorn
Subject:      Re: Found Earhart

This discovery puts the whole  "face on mars" in a whole new light. It has to
be Fred!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:33:56 EDT
From:         Troy
Subject:      Re: Off Topic: Wreck of HMS HOOD Located

Some people don't get it, do they Ric?  Your patience astounds me......
Geesh!

LTM
Troy
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:37:56 EDT
From:         Jackie
Subject:      Re: Off Topic Wreck of HMS HOOD

Hello All.  I am a new member, but I've read with fascination all of the
info on your website concerning Amelia.  I can't wait til my copy of the
eighth edition arrives and I can read with wonder and awe all that you guys
have done since the inception of this project.

I'm afraid I'm already totally addicted, and can't wait for each little
tidbit you offer, although I've always been fascinated with Amelia's
accomplishments, and am totally intrigued that you are sooooo close to the
truth about what happened to her. Sorry, I seem to be writing a book here,
but the reason I am writing is to support Ric in his exchange with "Mule"
Harvey.  I totally agree that the main reason for doing this research is to
find the "TRUTH", and also historical preservation.  I feel that we all have
our opinions about different things, and no one has the right to tell you to
"soften" or be careful not to offend other researchers and/or writers, etc.

I thoroughly enjoy Ric's honesty, and open-ness and I know there are many
many of us that feel this way.  Way to go, Ric, and keep up the fantastic
work.
********************************************************************
From Ric

Shucks Ma'am.  Just tryin' to do my job.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:39:04 EDT
From:         Malcolm Andrews
Subject:      Re: UK press

As an ex-Fleet Street journalist I tried to interest a few of the British
newspapers (and several here in Australia, too) in a feature story on
Tighar's current efforts after the wire services sent out their small piece
the other day. Most features editors are incommunicado and don't bother to
even acknowledge faxes and emails on the proposal. The one that did said
"We've run enough on Amelia Earhart at this point in time."

I strongly suspect that some of them wouldn't have the faintest idea of who
AE is! As for Nikumaroro?

Eminem? Well, that would be an entirely different matter! Features editors
have to get their priorities right, after all.

Malcolm Andrews  #2409
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:40:25 EDT
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      Re: A few wild ideas

Just a short comment: bayonet type light bulbs have been the standard in
Australia and New Zealand for many years.  It is only relatively
recently that Edison screw fittings have started to appear.  Basically,
the Brits were not the only ones to use them.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:43:17 EDT
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      Re: 2-3-V-2 Plexiglas

Does the curvature itself show anything.  I mean is it possible to run
it around an Electra to see if it is the same curve as the plexiglass in
an Electra?

Regards

David J Kelly
***************************************************************************
From Ric

The curvature of the artifact matches the curvature of Lockheed Part No.
40552, the cabin windows for the Model 10 - that's why we're so fond of it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:44:21 EDT
From:         Claude
Subject:      newbe

How ya doin,,  Im a newbe,, just signed up today.  Been reading all the stuff
on tighar web page and it sounds like the real thing to me.  Im specially
emoted with the skip wave receptions of Betty.  Ive spent many hours
listening to skip wave on the radio and I believe in what Betty has to say.
It sounds like the real thing.  I can see Amelia and Fred in desperation
trying to make contact, having spent all the previous day with no answer from
Itasca or any one else,, not knowing that her reciever was gone, using up the
last ounce of battery amps.  I can picture Fred being injured pretty badly
and doubt that he survived for more than a week.  I dont think they ever got
the right engine restarted after landing.  Looking at this from my year 2001
perspective,  its difficult to understand the  frailty of her situation cause
I learned to fly in the 60's and ADF was a primary tool for me.  I once saw
an RDF loop set up like that in a B 25 and it looked as if it was difficult
and cumbersome as compared to the rotating azimuth cards of today.  Her
weakness in understanding all the intricate details of the RDF and neglecting
to use it as a primary nav tool seems to be what cost her the grand prize.
Knowing what I know about flying now,, and looking at the crude situation of
1937, no one could have paid me enough money to attempt that flight, and I
guess Amelia was way out there all alone beyond the edge, facing the rising
sun in an ironic prelude to the rising suns painted on the Zeros that came
very soon after ...  I am sure you will find what is left of the Electra, I
believe you have got it right.....  later  Claude
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:51:43 EDT
From:         Lee Gaffrey
Subject:      Re: Moving On.

I second Dick on this.  I learned to fly two-wheelers (SNJ) in Navy flight
training and later had many flight hours in SNB's.  Keeping track of what
the tail was doing on takeoffs and landings/rollouts was particularly
difficult unless in a strong cross wind.
Lee Gaffrey (Used Naval Aviator)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:53:45 EDT
From:         PK
Subject:      E Channel

    I caught the credits last night on the E channel regarding a show about the
Amelia Earhart mystery.  Your name was listed, is this a rerun of some sort?

PK
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Yeah, it's a rerun.  I worked with them a couple years ago.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:50:44 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      The Methodology

       Your reply to Jim "Mule" Harvey expresses just how I and, and I
suspect, most TIGHAR members feel about what we are doing.  It is the journey
and the methology of solving (or at least attempting to solve) the AE and FN
mystery that has brought us together, caused us to share our collective
skills and knowledge and taught us all so very much.  Those are the important
things in all of this.  In some ways it will be a let down if the airplane is
found and identified.  We will have succeeded but we will need a new
challenge to keep our interest and keep us together.

Dick Pingrey 908C

**************************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Dick ......but let's not mourn the loss of the Earhart mystery yet.
Put not thy faith in pixels.  We still have a very tough road ahead of us.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:22:37 EDT
From:         Janice
Subject:      Re: E Channel

I know I've been "sandbagging" in this discussion
group for a while, but yes I'm still here and reading most of the threads (I
admit not ALL if my day is really busy).

My response to the original message about the
E Channel television program. -- I watched and taped the TV program
last evening.  It was the 2nd part of E! Online "Mysteries and Scandals" (a
link to the show is at http://www.eonline.com/On/Scandals/  click
on Amelia Earhardt).  And yes our "fearless leader" (I know I'm going to
get feedback about this from Ric) Richard Gillespie was highlighted in the
show mentioning a some of TIGHAR's investigations, artifacts found,
etc.  Nice job Ric!!!!! You appeared much more credible than the man from
the Smithsonian.

If this was a re-run I never saw it the first
time.  Ric, may I assume you have a copy of this?

LTM
Janice Brown
TIGHAR member # (yes I am, but sorry I don't
remember the number)
****************************************************************************
From Ric

A. "Fearless leader" is frequently terrified.
B.  Appearing much more credible than Tom Crouch makes my day.
C.  I'm sure we have a copy around here somewhere.
D.  Your member number is 2364 and you are very kind.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:24:24 EDT
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Found Earhart

I'm not kidding Ric,  have a look...   a capital A  a number 6 and a number 1
if I remember correctly.  It looks so realistic I had to really look hard to
work out it wasn't  a joke...

Th' WOMBAT
****************************************************************************
From Ric

But what does it MEAN? (This should be good.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:33:16 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      TIGHAR CONVENTION?

       The second week in August I will be away attending a convention.
Nothing important about that but it made me think, wouldn't it be fun if
TIGHAR held an annual convention where members could get together and put
real faces to the messages that go out on the Forum?  This idea has probably
been kicked around before but I think it would be great to have annual Tighar
meetings, attend learning sessions, sleep through lectures and just socialize
with all the TIGHAR members.  There might be some money in it for the
organization as well.  Years ago I attended the Tighar aviation archaeology
course (class room portion only) at the Museum of Flight in Seattle.  I think
we all had a great time.  What are your thoughts and the member's thoughts on
this?

Dick Pingrey 908C (That is where I earned the C)

****************************************************************************
From Ric

You did "A" work and earned a C.  There just ain't no justice.

We held a TIGHAR convention (we called it a "gathering") in Washington, DC in
1992 or thereabouts.  We had all kinds of neat activities and tours set up
(NASM, NTSB Lab, Nat'l Archives, etc.) but had a very disappointing turnout
and lost a lot of money.  The people who came had a great time but there just
weren't enough of them to make the thing economically viable.  Of course,
those were the days before the Revolution when we communicated primarily by
making marks on flattened sheets of wood pulp which were then physically
transported to the recipient by government couriers.

We're certainly open to the idea of giving it another shot.  Something to
kick around after the expedition.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:38:16 EDT
From:         Denise
Subject:      The Gallagher Family

About Gerald Gallagher, Vern says: "We have virtually no knowledge of his
father's side of the family."

Vern, what are you talking about? Young Gerald Gallagher is a member of this
forum and is currently writing a book about Our Gerald Gallagher. He is sure
to know where Our Gerald's stuff is; he might even have it himself.

I'd give you his e-ddress, only I've lost everything on my computer in a
botched repair job. But Tom King is sure to have it and I'm sure he'll have
no objection to getting the two of you together.

LTM (who likes a formal introduction herself)
Denise

P.S. Note to Tom King: I am unable to contact you owing to this botched
repair job, but it's OK because I have nothing new to tell you. However, if
you would drop me a line I can get you back into my e-ddress book in case I
have something for you in the future.
***************************************************************************
From Ric

"Our" Gerry Gallagher is, in fact, Gerard Gallagher (not Gerald).  I agree
that he is still our best potential source of information but Gerry has not
been a subscriber to the forum for about a year now.  He's a maritime attorney
in Scotland and has apparently gotten very busy.  I don't think that he has
lost interest in his famous cousin but it's quite clear he has other
priorities right now.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:39:42 EDT
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: The Methodology

       For the first time in a long time, I am making a forum entry, because I
feel that it is important to note that Dick Pingrey makes a very good point.
Whether this mystery is soon solved or not, what we have collectively gained in
terms of experience with methodology and utilizing the tools of inquiry in this
quest is priceless, and many of these experiences and techniques will provide us
with invaluable abilities and insights for the next quest. There are lots of
missing aircraft just waiting to be found. TIGHAR is certainly the group to find
them. I am proud to be associated with this organization, and with Ric Gillespie
in particular. Thanks to all of you who have cared enough to be involved!

Most Sincerely,
Dr. Eugene M. Dangelo, N3XKS, #2211
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Thank you Gene.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:50:41 EDT
From:         Chris
Subject:      Trailing antenna

I watched an American Experience episode and they mention AE didn't want a
trailing antenna.  Could that make any difference in radio performance than
the belly antenna?

I know that there is compelling evidence she may have lost her belly antenna
on takeoff but could they have used them both?  And why wouldn't she "want"
a trailing antenna?

Chris from Petaluma, Ca.
****************************************************************************
From Ric

There is a great deal of folklore and myth surrounding the trailing wire
antenna which the American Experience episode, unfortunately, only served to
perpetuate.  It is true, however, that Earhart apparently wanted to get rid
of the trailing wire because:
a. It was heavy.
b. It was cumbersome to use.
c. It was required only for transmissions on 500 Kcs - a frequency she did
not feel she would have much use for.

During the repairs in Burbank following the Luke Field debacle, Earhart's
radio consultant Joe Gurr lengthened the aircraft's dorsal vee antenna by
relocating the mast farther forward.  This, he claimed, would give the
airplane sufficient capability on 500 Kcs while eliminating the need for the
trailing wire rig.  In fact, it seems to have given the aircraft no
appreciable capability on 500 Kcs while actually degrading propagation on the
two other frequencies.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:51:26 EDT
From:         Gavin
Subject:      Re: UK press

Vern

Thanks for the information. My mother is actually quite good at tracking
her family down through the records, so I'll use her expertise to give this
one a go. I like a challenge. I'll be back to you with my progress.

Also, thankfully, I'm not your common garden Fleet street hack that has no
interest in anything apart from Soap opera stars and footballers (You call
it soccer)..

Gavin
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:31:49 EDT
From:         "Mule" Harvey
Subject:      Re: Some people don't get it

Some people do get it:  The method by which you arrive at the truth is just
as important as the truth, if not more so.  Whether you find what you're
looking for or not, you're fulfilled by the camaraderie and spirit of
distributed research.  Besides learning a great deal about the project,
you've learned a lot from and about each other and about the endless
tangents explored in the pursuit of the main goal.  The fact that much of
the work has been done by volunteers and in the spirit of enlightenment
rather than profit or other less honorable motive is laudable and
contributes to the way you feel about the project.  Perhaps most
importantly, the process you're learning and employing is applicable to any
search for truth, not just this one.

I didn't knock the project; I've followed it off and on since the National
Geographic article and I've been very impressed and intrigued with the flow
of ideas, the sense of community, and the seemingly endless off-topic
threads (like this one).  I took issue with Ric's dismissal of other
research, specifically with what I perceived as sarcasm and ridicule (not
bitterness).  Does Ric really feel the people who did the work on those
other projects were there just to "generate media material"?  If he does,
what objective criteria led him to that belief?  If he doesn't, why would he
say that?  My point (and my opinion) is you know there is something special
about your work that is more than a search for a lost Electra.  Why
insinuate the hard work of other people is essentially a media stunt to
emphasize that yours is different?    Unfortunately, I'm afraid my point was
lost in the definition of explorer.

Mule
"It may be clever to say sharp things, but it is often more clever not to
say them" ~ ???
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Let me elaborate on my reference to projects designed primarily to generate
media material.  I hear almost weekly from individuals who want to go out and
find or relocate some "lost" airplane.  I'm sure there are just as many
people who want to find lost ships, lost continents or King Solomon's Mines
but they're less likley to call me.

Searches (explorations, if you will) cost money - lots of money.  Always
have.  It used to be that monarchs were the sponsors - Henry the Navigator/De
Gama; Ferdinand & Isabela/Columbus; Elizabeth/Drake;  etc.   The motivation
was, of course, ecomomic.

The possible discovery of precious metals, exotic products, and new trade
routes was a powerful incentive.  Today, true exploration (of the sea floor
and outer space) is still sponsored by governments and the motives, although
perhaps more long-term, are essentially unchanged.

Starting in the mid 19th century, however, a new kind of search/exploration
began to emerge that was fueled not by the hope of discovering new economic
resources but by the money to be made from telling, and selling, the story to
the public.  One of the first such media-motivated expeditions was Henry M.
Stanley's 1869 engagement by James Gordon Bennett, Jr. of The New York Herald
to find the Scottish missionary Dr. David Livingston (who didn't now he was
lost).  The tremendous popularity of the newspaper's accounts of Stanley's
adventures in darkest Africa ushered in a new era in which the point of the
expedition was as much the tale to be told of the journey as it was the
results achieved.  In 1888 the National Geographic Society was founded to
sponsor expeditions which would generate copy for the simultaneously launched
magazine.  The polar expeditions of Peary and Byrd were organized and
sponsored this way, as were the later undersea adventures of Jacques
Cousteau.  Perhaps the archetype of the media-driven celebrity "explorer" was
our own dear Amelia.  The recent parade of famous sunken ships that have been
relocated, TV specialed, and coffeetable booked are clearly efforts to surf
the Titanic wave.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that Stanley, Peary, Byrd, Earhart,
Cousteau, Ballard, and the rest were not driven by a personal passion to
accomplish their chosen missions.  I'm merely pointing out where the money
came from - and still comes from.

Are we any different?  Well, yes, as a matter of fact we are.  While our work
gets lots of media attention, media money, in the form of rights fees to
cover expeditions, has been an ancillary rather than a primary source of
TIGHAR's funding.  Of the 2 million dollars raised and spent on The Earhart
Project since 1988, less than 25 percent ($460,000) has come from media
sources.  The other 75 percent plus has come from charitable donations by the
members of TIGHAR.   It's harder to do it this way - a lot harder - but it
also means that we are not "owned" by the media.  We may have contractual
obligations under specific rights sales agreements, but we are not beholden
to anyone but the members of TIGHAR for the conduct of our work.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:32:48 EDT
From:         Mike Holt
Subject:      Re: Found Earhart

> From Ross Devitt
>
> Ah yes Dave, but have you seem the "letters and numbers on the reef" just
> left of the south (smaller) passage, about half way to the water?
> I had to look at it a couple of times to see if Ric was pulling our legs..

Could be worse: I was at school yesterday, and, walking out of the
library, I almost tripped over Amelia Earhart.  Really: same height,
same smile, same walk, same hair, about 30 ...  I didn't ask her
if she'd ever been told how much she looked like Amelia.  I figured
I'd get slapped (women today can be overtense).

LTM (who slaps mashers)
Mike Holt
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:12:51 EDT
From:         Ric
Subject:      "Amelia Earhart's Shoe" arrives

Just got the word that "Amelia Earhart's Shoe", the book authored by TIGHARs
Tom King, Kar Burns, Randy Jacobson and Kenton Spading, will be available
August 15.  On line orders from the publisher AltaMira Press
(altamirapress.com) will get you a 15 percent discount off the regular $24.95
price.  While the book is not a TIGHAR product, several of the authors have
graciously assigned their share of the royalties to TIGHAR for the
advancement of the project.  Apparently TIGHAR will get about two bucks from
each sale.

I've read an almost-final version of manuscript and I think that it's a fair
and entertainingly told account of our investigation so far.  We deeply
appreciate the tremendous effort that Tom and his fellow authors put into the
book and we hope that it's a  huge success.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:21:24 EDT
From:         Dave Porter
Subject:      l'Oiseau Blanc

I didn't ask this sooner, since it's off topic, but you brought up  l'Oiseau
Blanc, so here goes:

The Project Midnight Ghost notes on the website state, if I remember them
correctly, that you are fairly confident that l'Oiseau Blanc's remains are
somewhere in a 10 sq. mile area of an extremely inaccessible Nova Scotia
peat bog.

Did l'Oiseau Blanc contain enough metal for our friends at Space Imaging to
see?  At the pixel/resolution level of the Niku imagery (4 meters color, 1
meter BW) it seems like you'd need more than just the engine to get some
anomalous pixels, but I'm not even up to amateur status in such things.
What say you?

Dave Porter, 2288 (who wonders if 4th and 5th grade would have been any
different at Nungesser & Coli Elementary School than they were at Lindbergh
Elementary)
****************************************************************************
From Ric

Croissants in the lunch room?

I think we'd need better resolution than is currently available from
satellite imagery, however, the Cape Shore peninsula is not Nikumaroro.  A
major airport is only about a hundred miles away in St. John's.  If we can
find the right technology deployed from an airplane at an affordable price we
may be able to get the resolution we need.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:18:09 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      Re: TIGHAR CONVENTION?

Put my name on the list-please-- as being interested enough to discuss it
after the expedition..

Jim Tierney
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:22:42 EDT
From:         Mike Holt
Subject:      Re: Found Earhart

> But what does it MEAN? (This should be good.)

What does it mean?  What does AKAGI look like in Kanji?

Mike Holt
**********************************************************************
From Ric

This may explain the message we found carved on a tree in '91;

"So American, you are surprised we speak your ranguage."

(Notice to New Subscribers:  Sometimes we get off onto these stupid joke
threads.  Please don't take it seriously.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:51:25 EDT
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: The Gallagher Family

Have you asked Gerard Gallagher if any of his rellies have an interest in
geneaology.  A heck of a lot of families now have someone researching the
family tree and for some reason it is easy to overlook.  Maybe an Aunt or
cousin of his has done this and he hasn't thought of it...

Th' WOMBAT
****************************************************************************
From Ric

When and if Gerry resurfaces we can ask him.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:07:24 EDT
From:         Tom MM
Subject:      Who's out there?

Interesting note on the TIGHAR website.  I have visions of cold war like
intrigue in the Central Pacific.  Ever considered a disinformation
campaign?  Anyway, now I'm curious about a few things.  I will fully
understand if you want to limit discussion, but inquiring minds want to
know!

Was this just a short side trip by someone who might even have been well
meaning or was it part of some other Earhart flight recovery effort?

Was the timing of the release of the "anomalous pixel" imagery part of an
effort to maintain at least a moral claim to any wreckage which might lie
in that area in the event that something was found by this salvage group?

Does anyone else have a similar arrangement to yours with the government of
Kiribati? Does Kiribati have any capability to stop unauthorized removal of
artifacts?

TOM MM
***************************************************************************
From Mike Everette

So much for it being difficult for anyone else to get to Niku ahead of
us....

Oh well.

73
Mike E.
****************************************************************************
From Ric

We have much more information now.  Here's what happened;
A salvage tug operating out of Australia was hired to haul a stranded
"longliner" fishing boat (with sevral tons of fish aboard) off the reef at
McKean Island where it had gone aground.  The captain, a chap by the name of
Jurgen Ruh, had happened to see our website research bulletin about the
satellite imagery and took my "nobody can get there ahead of us" comment as a
challenge.  He was not able to recover the longliner but on his way home he
stopped by Niku and took a look for the anomaly.  Three divers spent 30
minutes in the water checking the reef edge north of the shipwreck and didn't
find anything.  Up on top of the reef and some unspecified distance north of
the wreck and  about 60 meters shoreward from the edge they found and
recovered the piece of steel shown in the sketch on our website.  Jurgen has
since sent me photos.  It is clearly not airplane wreckage nor does it have
anything to do with the anomaly in the satellite photo.

Jurgen and I have been corresponding daily by email.  He's a nice guy and he
meant no harm.  He has no plans to do anything more at Niku but if we are so
fortunate as to find something too big for our ship to recover we might end
up hiring him and his tug to help out.

All in all, a very interesting little episode.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:10:18 EDT
From:         Renaud Dudon
Subject:      Methodology, HMS HOOD and L'Oiseau Blanc

    Yes, Methodology is the more valuable gain that you could get from
seeking and finding the truth. Futhermore, from my point of view, truth and
methodology are "tighly" depending on each other. That is to say that
finding the truth validates your methodology and, in a sense, that the truth
you're finding is confirmed by your methodology.

    Tighar is trying to validate a methodology while helping in finding
truth. Both goals are equivalent for me.

Concerning HMS HOOD, i have to say that this discovery should help in
finding truth. Indeed, the study of the wreck might reveal ( possible but
improbable) what really sank the ship and how did it happen, by using a
scientific methodology.

So, that discovery is not only, from my point of view, a big bucks media
coverage operation.

    At last, I have to admit that the search i've done with my friend
Charles Sivert concerning L'oiseau Blanc was disappointing, here in France,
and had slight results. Most of my fellow-countrymen have forgotten N&C or
just don't care about them... The Buckle found by Tighar in the Maine more
than ten years ago appeared to be uncommon with french uniform items. It is
very different from the standard buckle of french decorative belts of the
kind that was worn by Nungesser. Moreover,  It does not appear to be part of
a security harness. My point is that it should be from an navigation
equipment "besace"(wallet) worn by Coli. But i have no clue of that.

I am still waiting for an reply to the message i send to the french army
museum ( Musee des Invalides). Maybe it could help us to get more.

I wish to thanks Charlie for his support and patience.

I am amazed by the recent threads concerning AE. Ric, i am convinced that,
this time, you're REALLY close... I wish all the luck for NIKU IIII and i am
eager to see what is going on...

RENAUD DUDON
**************************************************************************
From Ric

Merci.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:45:42 EDT
From:         Mike Holt
Subject:      Artifact 2-3-V-2

I keep looking at info on various parts found on Niku and keep thinking that
one of these days you will be able to make a mutually exclusive connection.
In reference to the Plexiglas artifact, which seems to match the curvature
of Lockheed part No. 40552 could you answer the following:

(From Ric: I'll answer Mike's questions as we go.)

1.  Did Lockheed use this part in any other aircraft?

(Not sure but I doubt it.  The curvature is dictated by the curve of the
fuselage and later derivatives of the Model 10 ( Model 12, 14, 18, etc.) had
different fuselages.

2.  When did Lockheed last use part No. 40552 in any production aircraft?

(I would think on the last Model 10 whihc was delivered in 1941.)

3.  When did Lockheed, or its supplier, last produce part No. 40552 for
replacement parts?

(Dunno)

4.  Is Lockheed aware of any other aircraft manufacturer using an identical
window glazing?

(I would be shocked if anyone at Lockheed/Martin today had any idea.)

5.  Is there any other "knockoff" of the part produced in the secondary
market, or was it a strictly Lockheed part?

(Dunno)

6.  Any cross-reference to other aircraft manufacturers for parts that will
"exchange" with 40552?

(Not that I'm aware of.)

7.  Did any of the other aircraft on the "known" to have been in the vicinity
list use a similar window part?

(To know that for sure would take a truly daunting amount of research.)

8.  Could the list of "known" aircraft, if any,  be paired down to a select
few by excluding similar windows on the remaining (excluded) aircraft.  By
way of explanation, I assume that the curvature referred to is a compound or
complex curve.  Any aircraft with only "flat" windows, portholes,
windscreens, or windshields could thus be excluded.

(We have such a small piece that you'd have to look at all the noses and
turrets of all the types and try to see if there is any little section that
matches the curvature.  A tremendous undertaking.)

9.  I have read on the forum that the Plexiglas material has been analyzed
and found to be consistent with the 1930's.  I have also read that no great
changes have occurred in the nature of Plexiglas,sufficient to excluded it,
by common testing methods, from more recent material.  I have read however,
that certain types of neutron or electron analysis can "match" a known to an
unknown product.  Is there any possibility of an existing, original, part
no. 40552 that can be traced back to 1930's production for this type of
comparative analysis?

(In order to do that you'd need a sample to match it to.  The material and
thickness of Part No. 40552 changed over the production life of the Model 10.
 Our artifact happens to match with specs that were current when the cabin
windows of c/n 1055 were changed in early 1937.  To get a match you'd have to
find an Electra cabin window that you were sure was original to that time -
and i don't know how you'd do that.)

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:48:28 EDT
From:         Mike Haddock
Subject:      Re: TIGHAR CONVENTION?

As a new member of TIGHAR, #2438, I'd love to attend a convention and meet
all of you.

Mike Haddock
***************************************************************************
From Ric

We'll talk about it after the expedition.  I'm not at all opposed to the
idea.  I just want to be sure we woud get enough people to make it
worthwhile.  Events like that take a lot of time and money to organize if
they're any good.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:19:42 EDT
From:         Bob Brandenburg
Subject:      Niku grid map

Have price and availability for the expedition poster map of Niku
been established yet?

Bob
****************************************************************************
From Ric

They are being printed today and the price will be $25 which gets you a 18 x
24 inch full color map in a tube sent Priority Mail.

We've taken the satellite image and overlaid a grid of sectors each of which
is 140 meters (450 feet) square.  Alphanumeric coordinates allow you to
identify any particular sector.  During the expedition, the plan is for me to
make daily satellite phone reports to Pat here at TIGHAR Central from which
she will write up a brief report which will be posted on the TIGHAR website.
I'll key my reports to the coordinates on the map, so a typical report might
go, in part, something like:

"Today the dive team covered approximately 200 meters of reef front in sector
WB5 while the grave team began excavation of the feature located in sector
WE7."

The grid maps will only be available to TIGHAR members, but of course
membership in TIGHAR is open to anyone who wishes to join.  If you think this
is a scheme to reward TIGHAR members for their support while also encouraging
new membership, you're absolutely correct.  Almost as good as a secret
decoder ring.

We'll have ordering info up on the website soon but in the meantime, if
you're a TIGHAR member and we already have your credit card number, just
email us and say you want a map.  Otherwise you can fax your order and credit
card info to (302) 994-7945 or phone us at (302) 994-4410.  If you're not yet
a member you can join via the website (www.tighar.org) or by fax or phone.
Of course, you can also mail us a check, payable to TIGHAR, at:
TIGHAR
2812 Fawkes Drive
Wilmington, DE  19808

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:57:52 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Capt. Ruh

Ric said:  "Up on top of the reef and some unspecified distance
north of the wreck and  about 60 meters shoreward from the edge they found
and recovered the piece of steel shown in the sketch on our website."

    According to TIGHAR's analysis, debris from the S.S. Norwich City
should be moving to the south and east, toward the lagoon opening.  So what
is the source of  this stuff Capt. Ruh found north of the ship?

LTM, who is a little ticked over this development
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
**************************************************************************
From Ric

Good question.  Bob Brandenburg, who has seen the photos, thinks it looks like
it might be part of:

<<a piece of topside bulwark (exterior "wall") plating - - and could very well be
from the NC.   There are rivet heads still in place along one edge.  And that
rectangular cutout looks like a hastily cut limber hole.  A limber hole is an
opening in a bulwark to keep water from than accumulating on deck - - which can
really degrade a ship's stability, due to free surface effect.  Every ship is
constructed with limber holes, but sometimes in extremely heavy weather they
prove to be too small and too few in number to drain away water from waves coming
aboard, and it's necessary to cut additional holes.  Been there, done that.>>

Chris Kennedy advanced a theory that seems to make sense as to how relatively
lightweight NC debris could end up some distance north of the wreck.  We know
that the  whole stern of the ship broke off sometime in late 1940/early 1941
leaving the inerior of the hull exposed to the open sea.  The next really big
wave to hit that hole could have had truly explosive consequences which could
have flung debris in every direction.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:02:50 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Tighar convention

Hey, I like Dick P.'s idea of a Tighar convention.  But rather than
Washington, D.C. like last time, why not hold it in the executive dining
room at TIGHAR headquarters in the always popular TIGHAR Towers.  That would
be on the 47th or 48th floor; I forget which, but I do remember the
expansive view of the Delaware River from the northeast balcony.  It was a
gorgeous day and we could see all the way to Philadelphia!  Ahh, the beauty
of it.

LTM, who longs for stolen moments
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
***************************************************************************
From Ric

The Excutive Dining Room (lawful capacity 8) is actually on the 2nd floor of
the TIGHAR Split-Level but it does provide a gorgeous view of the overgrown
lot behind the old elementary school that now houses the Delaware Army
National Guard Headquarters.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:28:26 EDT
From:         Lawrence Talbot
Subject:      Poachers

So Captain Ruh has already searched the area of the reef where the Electra
may have been resting all these years, and found nothing. Does this alter
your plans?
Lawrence Talbot
***************************************************************************
From Ric

What you do if you were me?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:42:07 EDT
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Convention dining room.

Ric said:

"The Executive Dining Room (lawful capacity 8) is actually on the 2nd
floor..."

I always thought the Executive Dining Room was on the 3rd floor.  But,
that's another story.....sigh.    :-)

LTM (who thinks conventions are a good idea)
Roger Kelley
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:58:25 EDT
From:         Mike
Subject:      Poachers

Ric wrote:  What you do if you were me?

Continue to plan the expedition based on your expertise.

Time and resources permitting......your plan is something like this?......

1. Search the reef anomaly & tatiman passage.

The remote sensing imagery is a tremendous asset.  Something, hopefully,
should be left there.  As you propose, stuck in a crevice.

2.  Continue to focus on the land most likely to be hiding that tiny bit of
forensic evidence (nutiran, ritiati, noriti).

The strongest TIGHAR aircraft evidence to date has been found in these areas
(ritiati...i believe).

3. Finally, look for bones or campsites on the eastern end.

While we hope you find and pull an engine or other large chunk of evidence
out of the water, I suspect this case will solidify on more land based
shreds of aircraft evidence, such as the plexiglass, 2-2-v-1, the dado, etc.

At any rate, I am sold that you & the great TIGHAR members solved this
mystery long ago.

Fantastic research over many years........you and TIGHAR made your mark in
history.

LTM,

Mike
#2088
***************************************************************************
From Ric

That is pretty much our plan except that the abandoned village areas
(Ritiati, Noriti) are not priority sites for this trip.  The airplane parts
in the village are scraps left over from the local use of parts brought there
from someplace else.  We need to find that someplace else.

Jurgen Ruh's unproductive examination of some portion of the reef edge would
seem to reduce the chances that aircraft wreckage is to be found there, but
we still have to conduct our own search.  I tend to agree with Mike.  I
suspect that evidence will continue to emerge in bits and pieces rather than
in big hidden temple, Indiana Jones style discoveries.  As Tom King has long
said, public acceptance of Nikumaroro as the final destination of the Earhart
flight may come gradually over time rather than in some media holocaust
resulting from a dramatic find.  In any event, we can't control what's there
or whar we find.  We can look as hard as we can.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:01:55 EDT
From:         Rollin Reineck
Subject:      Bronze statue of Earhart.

This is of interest to all.

LOS ANGELES DAILY NEWS; Holly Edwards

Plans begin to honor Earhart with a bronze statue.

On the surface the bronze colored statue of Amelia Earhart gazing
confidently ahead with an airplane popeller in her hand appears to be as
tough as the reputation of the aviator herself, weathering the years
without a trace of decay.

For three decades, however, the steel and fiberglass statue in North
Hollywood Park has been deteriorating from within and could now fall
apart at any time, local artist and historians warn.

Today, on what would have been Earhart's 101st  (104) birthday, a group
of civic leaders and aviation enthusiast is expected to announce a
campaign to raise more than $!00,000 to create a real bronze statue of
the local heroine.

Our community has had a love affair with Amelia since the 30s.  and
we're proud of what she synbolizes.

Earhart lived on Valley Spring Lane in what is now Toluca lake and flew
her airplane out of the Burbank -Glendale-Pasadena Airport.

She was an inspiration and someone everyone could look up to.  She was a
rugged inidvidualist who proved womem could do much more when they were
challanged.

Created by sculpture Ernest Shelton in1971 the existing statue was
designed to be used as a temporary model until a bronze statue couldbe
made, said Sandy Decker of Decker Studios in North Hollywood, the art
studio that made the statue.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:05:05 EDT
From:         Gavin
Subject:      WWII Aircraft found in Med

I picked this story up on a news service thought you may be interested

Nicosia - A team of one Turkish Cypriot and three Swiss divers have
discovered a British World War 2 plane in the Mediterranean off the Turkish
Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), one of the divers said on Wednesday.

The divers also discovered a skeleton, presumably that of the pilot, and
munition inside the aircraft, said Gurdal Mehmetcik, the Turkish Cypriot
member of the team.

The plane was found last Saturday at a depth of 27 metres, some 30km from
the port city of Kyrenia.

Mehmetcik, who also owns a diving club in the TRNC, said the craft was
well-preserved. It was not clear what type of plane it was.

The plane was thought to have crashed into the sea after being hit by
Germans while en route to Africa during World War 2.

The divers have contacted British diplomatics in Cyprus to clarify
procedures for handing over the remains.

It was not immediately clear when the plane would be taken out of the
water.

Cyprus has been divided into a Greek Cypriot south and a Turkish Cypriot
north since 1974, when Turkey occupied the northern third in response to an
Athens-engineered military coup in Nicosia seeking to united the island
with Greece.

Greek Cyprus is internationally recognised, while the TRNC is recognized
only by Turkey. - Sapa-AFP
***************************************************************************
From Ric

It's good that they're trying to do what is right with regard to the remains.
 Whether the plane is worth recovering is a question of how rare it is and
who is willing to spend the money to recover it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:59:31 EDT
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      Re: Artifact 2-3-V-2

We could test the Perspex on the possible types of aircraft if you could
make some plaster duplicates.  From there we could find out what museums
house the various aircraft and send the copies to willing Tigher members
located close the those museums.

David J Kelly
**************************************************************************
From Ric

I'm certainly not opposed to the idea of using the awesome resources of the
TIGHAR membership to conduct this kind of research (we've done it many times
before) but I want to be sure that something meaningful could be
accomplished.

The artifact has four properties:
1. composition (polymethyl methacrylate)
2. color (clear)
3. thickness (1/8 inch)
4. curvature

It of course has a fifth property - dimension - but it's so small (about 2.5
x 5 inches) that it could be from virtually any plexiglas part of any
airplane.

With a plaster or plastic template someone could walk up to an airplane in a
museum and, assuming they had the permission and means to crawl all over the
machine, be able to compare color and curvature.  Composition would be an
assumption but a pretty safe one.  Plexi is plexi.  But thickness is very
hard to measure if you don't have access to an edge, which you usually do
not.  To get thickness you usually need to dig out the manufacturer's
engineering drawings.

Okay, so let's say we jump through all those hoops and we find that:
A.  Lots of airplanes have plexiglas pieces that match 2-3-V-2.
or
B.  Only a few aircraft have plexiglas pieces that match 2-3-V-2.
or
C.  We can't find any aircraft except the Lockheed Model 10 that has a
plexiglas piece that matches 2-3-V-2.

What would we have proved?  Nothing that I can think of.  It's the old
negative hypothesis problem.  We can't prove that 2-3-V-2 came from NR16020
by proving that it didn't come from other airplanes.  For that matter, we'll
probably never be able to prove where it came from although the discovery of
conclusive Electra wreckage elsewhere on the island would increase the
probability that it came from that wreck.

That's why I'm hesitant to spend the time and effort (read money) to organize
and equip a big plexi matching project.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:02:31 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      SS Norwich City wreck

Ric said:  "We know that the  whole stern of the ship broke off
sometime in late 1940/early 1941 leaving the interior of the hull exposed to
the open sea.  The next really big wave to hit that hole could have had
truly explosive consequences which could have flung debris in every
direction."

    If this is true, it could support TIGHAR's hypothesis that severe
wave action/storms tore apart AE's plane in much the same manner and caused
the damage seen on artifact number ?? (the aluminum panel).

LTM, Hmmm!
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
***************************************************************************
From Ric

It is true that Artifact 2-2-V-1 (the section of aluminum aircraft skin)
exhibits precisely the kind of damage to be expected from an aircraft torn
apart by wave action.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:27:56 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Skeletons in water

The piece, forward by Gavin, about the alleged WWII British plane
found off the coast of Cyprus raises some vaguely peripheral questions on
the AE/FN search.
    According to the wire service story, a skeleton was found in the
wreckage.  Is that possible?   Judging from a whole stack of wreck-discovery
stories I've read, the human body doesn't last very long in water after
death.  The meat is eaten by critters in a few weeks and the bones
rot/dissolve/get eaten over a period of a few years.
    Do any of TIGHAR's experts (Kar Burns?) have any scientific data on
how long human bones can last in sea water with a "normal" concentration of
sea critters.

LTM, who needs to bone up on her anatomy
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:57:29 EDT
From:         CJSF
Subject:      Re: Skeletons in water

My understanding is that preservation is in part determined by the amount of
dissolved oxygen in the water, as well as temperature (which is in part
dictated by depth). The alleged remains off Cyprus seem to be in relatively
shallow and warm water, unless I misread the article. Sounds "fishy"
(guffaw, guffaw) to me.

LTM,
8-) CJSF