========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:05:44 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Crouch, Ric and Evidence Randy J. wrote: >>I've not bet the farm (yet) on the Niku hypothesis, but I sure do like the >>methodology, tenacity, and sheer determination involved in the historical >>research. Besides, it is the journey, not the destination, that is the most >>important thing in life. I rather like this particular journey...it keeps >>my mind sharp. Randy...Thank you for summing this up rather nicely. I agree with your thoughts. I too am enjoying the journey immensely and indeed it does keep ones mind sharp. My..."List the Top 3 Reasons"....post had/does have two purposes. No. 1. Attempt to (as Randy stated) sharpen Forum members thoughts as to why the Niku Hypothesis is valid and worth testing. Every once in a while, as the body of evidence matures, you have to reassess how you have arrived at the point in the journey you have choosen to take. When you are on a trek, you should always study your compass once in a while and compare it to the folks you are following. No. 2. To test a Forum-related Hypothesis of mine that suggests that the Forum membership (and the non-Forumite population) is comprised of basically three types of individuals as follows: a. (Forum Type E's) These are people who favor the Niku Hypothesis for mostly Emotional (Type E) reasons albiet good reasons. Those reasons echo Dennis M's reply. TIGHAR's methodology is good (test an hypothesis), TIGHAR is credible (peer review accepted), TIGHAR has evidence (artifacts), TIGHAR shares its research (the Forum) etc., etc.. These folks like the Hypothesis because it sounds good and it makes for a nice story. A bunch of pieces of information form an interesting relationship (LOP, dado, plexi, bones etc.) and they all seem to line up about right. Type E's insist that it just cannot be all coincidental. In general these folks place the odds that Earhart/Noonan ended up on Niku at approx. 70 percent with a sizable number coming much higher. Type E's tend to be inpatient with folks who like to resolve picky details b. (Forum Type S's) These folks find the Niku Hypothesis interesting from a Scientific (Type S) stand point....almost by default as scientists love hypothesis of any sort. Type S's enjoy all the same things Type E's favor (methods, credibility, research etc..) as those are solid scientific principles. But Type S's are more cautious than Type E's as evidenced by both Randy J's and Marty M's response to the Top 3 question. Type S's recognize the fact that a group of seemingly UNRELATED variables could be related (e.g. El Nino). In turn, a group of seemingly RELATED variables could be totally unrelated (e.g. sunspots and droughts in the U.S.). A scientists reputation, among other things, is dependent on not being lured by either one of these mistresses until the facts clearly fall into place. Some would argue that because of this, most scientific investigations move too slow. In general these folks place the odds that Earhart/Noonan ended up on Niku at not more than 60 percent with a sizable number around 50/50 or below. If you are between 60 and 70 percent you need to get off the fence and form an opinion :).! Type S's tend to be inpatient with folks who prefer to ignore picky details. c. (Forum Type ENS's) These are people who approach the Earhart mystery from an Emotionally Non-Scientific (Type ENS) angle. They are very, very emotionally attached to a Non-TIGHAR theory and do not feel a need to follow the scientific method. They choose not divulge their sources or worry about issues involving anecdotal stories or other such details. You either agree with them or you don't and there is not much room for debate. Type ENS's are inpatient with both E's and S's. We need E's, S's and ENS's in this world and in this investigative journey. All tend to keep the other side honest while at the same time rolling their eyes at each other (e.g. what the H, E, double L is that *%@# thinking!). All three types have contributed to this investigation. In fact in the past month alone all three have done things to move this investigation forward. I caution folks to be more tolerant of the various Forum member types. Perhaps TIGHAR needs a Meyers-Briggs type of test to help people to work better together. LTM Kenton Spading, Type S, 1382CE, Myers-B ESTP, (who enjoys debate with S's, E's and ENS's) **************************************************************************** From Ric Okay, I'll bite (and demonstrate my ignorance). What's a Meyers-Briggs test? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:09:31 EST From: John Pratt Subject: sun rise, sun set U. S. Naval Observatory provides the sun rise and set times for a year, anywhere and anytime. The URL is: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/data/docs/RS_OneYear.html Just for reference, here's the excerpt for early July, 1937. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX o , o , GARDNER ISLAND Location: W174 32, S04 40 Rise and Set for the Sun for 1937 Zone: 11.50h West of Greenwich July Day Rise Set h m h m 01 0616 1807 02 0616 1808 03 0616 1808 04 0617 1808 05 0617 1808 06 0617 1809 07 0617 1809 08 0617 1809 09 0617 1809 10 0617 1809 I used Itasca time (I hope) for local time. LTM John Pratt 2373 **************************************************************************** From Ric Yes, you did. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:22:11 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: Meyers-Briggs Ric said: "Okay, I'll bite (and demonstrate my ignorance). What's a Meyers-Briggs test?" Oh, Ric, you silly goose! That's the company that make lawn mower engines. LTM, who loves to putt-putt around Dennis O. McGee #0149EC *************************************************************************** From Ric So a Meyers-Briggs test would be how many pulls it takes to get it started? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:35:54 EST From: Dave Bush Subject: Meyers-Briggs Ric: The Meyers-Briggs test is actually a "personality" categorizing "test". There are no correct or incorrect answers. Each anwer places you in one of several types of "personalities." There are a number of such tests, some more involved than others. With the Meyers-Briggs, there are about 200,000,000 questions that you have to answer (actually only 3 questions, but asked over and over and over again with different formats in order to insure that you actually answer every one of them identically - however, if you answer everyone of them EXACTLY the same, they think you are being a smart ass, so you have to miss one out of every ten to seem NORMAL because no one is that consistent in their personality - except me, I miss the one in ten ON PURPOSE, so they won't think that I am a smart ass, tho I still get accused of it on occasion). Psychological tests are always a lot of fun because you can play with the answers and get a different "personality" on every test (or give them the personality they are looking for on that particular occasion). They anticipate that everyone will answer the test based on the way they would actually respond in everyday life, thus clumping you into one of three types of personalities. Type "A", "E" or "S" for some tests or into quadrants for others where you have factors that put you on a sliding scale depending on whether you are under stress or understressed or whatever. There are probably a dozen or more and they are always being re-defined as the psycho-anlytical types learn more about our psyches. LTM, Dave Bush #2200 **************************************************************************** From Ric Ohh okay. I know the tests you mean. Actually there are only two kinds of people in the world. Those who divide everything into groups and those who don't. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:47:56 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Satellite photos Unfortunately, not of Niku or Howland There is a good 4 meter resolution photo or Baker Island at . One of the US coral reef programs recently bought a lot of images from these people, but I can't find out if it included Niku. Their website says that you can see underwater to a depth of 30 meters, which is deeper that you would want to dive for any prolonged period. You can play around with the larger image, even with a program like Microsoft picture it, and enhance the outlines of old buildings on the island. Is anyone interested in pursuing buying a custom 1 meter photo of Niku? The price is out of my range. Dan Postellon Tighar #2263 **************************************************************************** From Ric If there actually was such a creature we should probably find a way to get our hands on it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:26:59 EST From: Chris Rehm Subject: personal exp with bounced radio signals new member to the list. i have a personal experience with bounced radio signals that may be of interest to the group, in light of th ebetty note book. in 1987 i was a forward observer in panama with the 2/187 abn inf btn(lt), fort kobbe panama. we were on the atlantic side of the canal , on fort sherman training area. i was carrying my own radio that day, a prc -77 , and was flipping thru freqs, trying to pick up the radio signals of our opponent in a military exercise. i found some one tranmitting on a freq not in our code book (CEOI) -- but also not involved in our training exercise; one could tell that the communication was of an admin nature. ( other radio op was looking for commo check and asking any reciever to let him know which fireing range he was on). i talked to this guy for a few minutes, when be both realized that we were at least 1500 miles apart-- he at fort bragg, nc and me in panama. we were both using the little whip antenna that comes with the prc -77 -- no more than 2 ft long. we talked on and off for at least 20 min-- we were both very surprised that we could talk to each other, but both of us had heard of other incidents of this nature. so here is one instance of a radio signal bouncing quite a ways with a small antenna and low power transmitter. if anyone cares for more details please feel free to ask any questions-- thought that in light of some of the archived messages regarding the ability of radio signals to bounce off of the atmosphere you all might be interested in a first hand experience. chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:02:04 EST From: Tom Byers Subject: Radio Propagation Lo-band "very high frequency" (VHF) (40 mhz) military radios normally communicate on a line of sight. However, when. there is a peak in the sunspot cycle (every 11 years) they can send and receive for thousands of miles resulting in unwanted interference with local communications. The last peak was about 1990 and the cycle may well be peaking again. (VHF was not used in aviation until after WW2) The radio equipment on the Earhart flight used what is known as "high frequency, 3 -30 Mhz" (HF) . The 3 mhz would be used at night while the 7 mhz was used during the day. My guess is that the normal range would be several hundred miles. Tom Byers (Springfield, MO) **************************************************************************** From Ric If I'm not mistaken (and if I am I'll hear about it) there was some VHF used for plane-to-plane communication during WWII. Earhart's particular radio set up and its capabilities have been and will, I'm sure, continue to be the subject of much debate on this forum. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:37:08 EST From: Pete Subject: Re: personal exp with bounced radio signals Thank you for the back up Chris Rehm! I encountered the same thing during a Med deployment. The Frigate in my escrot screen could not hear me, but I talked to a station in Sicily from the middle of the Atlantic like the guy was in the same room with me. My radio gear, on a carrier, by specs was to be unable to have comms with them, but I did, for more than an hour. Ric, you DID take a vacation right? Pete **************************************************************************** From Ric You betcha I did. Can't you tell? I haven't smacked anybody in days. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:39:48 EST From: Pete Subject: Re: Radio Propagation My 11 meg was classified "LOW band" , as these days search radars operate in Gigahertz. Judging my last Med cruise capabilities against what ANY station had in 1937 is not at all fair. Like taking a man-pack PRC-77 against what a WW2 infantry unit had. I'm in college to have a Degree in Electronics, and TK has a PhD. I am not the only one that can attest to propagation effects. Mike has forgotten more about how a radio with tubes works than I'll learn. Niku IIII launches when I'm about to graduate. I asked my CPA brother in Chicagoland about moving that black needle. If I could go, I would. 3 Med cruises here. (Ric, sheet of plastic wrap and canteen cup?) We can all spend days fighting amongst ourselves, every minute will count on Niku. Settle the fights now? Pete **************************************************************************** From Ric Fights? What fights? We're all one big happy collegial family in search of truth - right? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:33:13 EST From: David Evans Katz Subject: Cartoon I saw this today and I thought that the Forum would enjoy it. david Katz --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have been sent a cartoon from David Evans Katz Please read below to find out how to view your cartoon......... (Just copy & paste the address onto your browser's address box.) http://aolsvc.toonville.aol.com/main.asp?fnum=148&pathb=/Content1/Grimmy/010401.gif ************************************************************************** From Ric That's a good one. It was first published following our March 1992 press conference. There were at least a dozen Earhart/TIGHAR cartoons that made the rounds at that time. I wish I could run the whole collection on the website but it would cost a fortune in royalties. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:59:15 EST From: Chris Rehm Subject: No Subject odd thing isnt it. i didnt believe it when other soldiers told me that this sort of thing would happen-- thought it was basically an old wives tale. well i was wrong. at any rate it says to me that betty could have actually heard AE and FN -- it is at least in the realm of possiblity. personally i think she very well may have-- there is something rather eeriee and chilling about the transcripts that does not strike me as a radio drama, or fake, but the real thing. i did some radio drama in college years ago-- what i have see of the transcripts does not look like any radio drama i ahve ever seen; nor does it look ANYTHING like what a radio drama would have looked like in 1937.if it was AE/FN it would be a desperate transmission-- they would have been quite scared at that point, i think. remember, 1937 was not now and being on an uninhabited atoll in the pacific was and still is about as isolated as you can get. also having spent many nights in the jungle, in the army , i can tell you the first night in the tropics alone or with one other person can be a very frightening thing. question: why is it that we always assume that FN was injured??-- is it because of Jean Cochrans psyhic vision??? it seems to me that in almost every version of the AE/ FN stories/rumors, in every one where they did not just crash and burn into the sea FN is ALWAYS reputed to have a head injury. just curious why the assumption that FN was injured, by all chris **************************************************************************** From Ric I think you mean Jackie Cochran. Yes, it's strange. I can't explain it. I'm quite sure that the story of Cochran's psychic vision did not become public until years after the disappearance. You'll notice that Betty's notebook itself contains no reference to a head injury; it merely portays an irrational Noonan. Another alleged short-wave reception of an Earhart distress call, this one by Mable Dunklee who lived in Amarillo, TX, describes Noonan being "seriously injured" but not specifically in the head. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:05:50 EST From: Tom Byers Subject: Re: Radio Propagation I wonder if any photos exist of the radio equip used by Earhart. Tom Byers (Springfield, MO) **************************************************************************** From Ric If you mean photos of the equipment when it was installed in the airplane, very few. Most of it was hidden from view. The receiver was under the copilot's seat and the dynmotor was under the pilot's seat. The transmitter was on the floor of the cabin under the navigator's table. There is a photo of AE sitting on the tranmsmitter before the table was installed. A few cockpit shots also show the remote for the receiver. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 09:55:49 EST From: Pete Subject: Re: Satellite photos I re-read the post, and got to thinking. There was an outfit that was selling images from Soviet satellites I saw in an old catalog. I wonder, if Canton Island was a missile test facility, maybe of those sats passed over Niku on it's way to view Canton. I'm not sure what the resolution would be. There may even have been a pass of Niku to see if the Loran station was restored, or any tracking systems installed. I'll have to try a Net search for images like that, and report what I can come up with. Here goes...... Pete ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:17:25 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: Castaways Have there been any papers written on the emotional and psychological effects be being marooned? I'm serious. I know there have been studies on POWs, survivors of all types of disasters, etc., but has anyone tried to get into the head of a person who is hopelessly (?) lost/marooned/abandoned and document the evolution of the individual's metal and emotional health. (But then maybe if a person is hopelessly (?) lost/marooned/abandoned, by definition no one can find them and therefore there is no opportunity to learn from that experience.) I hesitate to take any clues from Hollywood's versions of this problem -- Tom Hanks' "Castaway," "Robinson Carusoe" etc.-- but that seems to be about all we have to go on. I'm not even sure if this would be applicable to our problem, but then again . . . LTM, who always wants to be saved! Dennis O. McGee #0149EC **************************************************************************** From Ric I'm not aware of any studies but I would think that there would be tremendous variation in individual response due to all sorts of factors - more so than, say, with POWs who at least have some military training in common. You mention Robinson Crusoe (although you make him Italian) and I think its an important point. Defoe's novel was based upon the real-life experiences of a Scottish castaway by the name of Alexander Selkirk. The book has long been a staple of English literature and was read by virtually every well-educated English-speaking child until Gen X. I would be very surprised if Amelia Earhart had not read it. "Robinson Crusoe" is a cultural text book for what to do if you're marooned on a desert island. - Return to the ship before it breaks up to salvage anything of use. - Find a source of fresh water - Make optimal use of local materials. - Establish your campsite someplace where you have adequate shelter but can easily access a lookout post where you can watch the horizon for ships. - Beware of visitors. They may be cannibals or pirates. The other classic literary castaway is Ben Gunn in Stevenson's "Treasure Island." The message there is that people marooned on islands tend to go bonkers. Having been marooned on a few myself, its a valid observation. ("You wouldn't happen to have a piece of cheese on you..would you?"). LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:21:39 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: AE's radio gear Ric said: "A few cockpit shots also show the remote for the receiver." I'm a little confused what this "remote" was. Could you explain it a little more? Thanks. LTM, who's often too remote Dennis O. McGee #0149EC **************************************************************************** From Ric In those days radios were heavy and bulky and could not be mounted in a cockpit instrument panel. Big airplanes had separate radio operator compartments where a guy could sit at the radios mounted in racks. In Earhart's case the radio were stuffed wherever there was room and a separate control box was "remotely" located on the instrument panel and connected to the radios by cables. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:27:21 EST From: Tom Byers Subject: Re: Radio Propagation Its interesting that Noonan, who was both a radio operator and navigator, did not have easy access to the radio. Of course, in 1937 radio navigation technology was in its infancy. I wonder what kind of radio equipment the Itasca had? It would appear that its operators were inexperienced in its proper use. Tom **************************************************************************** From Ric We've come across no evidence to indicate that Noonan had either training or experience as a radio operator. Aboard the Pan Am Clippers there was a dedicated radio operator in addition to the navigator. The Itasca's radio capabilities were fairly extensive but you're correct, its operators were not highly trained or experienced. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:32:37 EST From: Mike Holt Subject: Re: Cartoon Great cartoon! I should use it as wallpaper .... Do those cartoons you mention, Ric, have URLs? **************************************************************************** From Ric Unfortunately, no. They date from way back in 1992 before most of us had ever heard of a URL. They exist only as clippings. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:34:40 EST From: Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194 Subject: Re: Radio Propagation For photos of the receiver (exterior and interior), look in "Modern Aircraft Radio," a 1937 textbook... darn it I cannot remember the author, but it's listed in the bibliography of my 8th Edition article on the equipment. the transmitter is little more than a "black box" outside. Some of the old aviation mags like "Southern Flight" and "Aero Digest" have full page Western Electric ads which show this equipment nicely. Look for the 20-series receivers (20A, 20B0 and the 13-series transmitters. LTM (who knows a picture is worth 100 words) and 73 Mike E. **************************************************************************** From Ric We have copies of those ads. We should scan them and drop them into your 8th Edition article. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:48:51 EST From: Jim Kellen Subject: Tom Hanks Did you ever make contact with Tom Hanks? I believe I heard him say on Leno the other night that he got the idea for the movie "Castaway" from watching a story on TV about "some guys" who were looking for Amelia Earhart on an island in the Pacific. He made comments about shoe parts and aluminum panels and how quickly man made materials and human remains deteriorate under the conditions on such an island as the one where his film was made. Jim Kellen 2331 ****************************************************************************Fr om Ric We got a message to Hanks within hours of his initial reference to us on Good Morning America. We also later reached him through a friend of a friend to whom he responded that the TIGHAR people had already found him "faster than they did Emilia (sic)". So far I have had no direct communication from Mr. Hanks. He's probably intimidated by all of the celebrities we have here on the Forum. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 10:32:45 EST From: Doug Brutlag Subject: Re: Satellite photos You might have something there Pete. (Canton or Kanton-which is it Ric?) Besides Pan Am using it as a stepping stone to Austrailia, the Air Force had an installation built during WWII and was abandoned in the 1960's. NASA built a satellite tracking station there in 1965 and abandoned it in 1967. Mix this with a little cold-war paranoia and you might find nice glossy or two. Good luck! Doug Brutlag #2335 **************************************************************************** From Ric It was Canton until it officially became part of Kiribati in 1979 and then became Kanton. Pan Am first used the lagoon as a seaplane landing/refueling base in 1939. The Army built a runway in 1941 and the island was a heavily-used refueling stop all through the war. After the war and thoughout the 1950s it was a vital transpacific refueling stop for both American and British airliners. Nonstop jets made it obsolete in the early 1960s but, as you say, NASA had a telemetry station there from 1965 to 1967. In 1970 the USAF used the Phoenix Group as a target area for multiple (dummy) warhead ICBMs launched from Vandenberg AFB, California. Canton was the main base of operations. That operation ended in 1973. In 1979 the island became part of the new nation of Kiribati. Nothing much has happened there since then. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:05:23 EST From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Robinson Crusoe/Alexander Selkirk Is this the same Alexander Selkirk who was a chief factor of the Hudson Bay Company in Canada and for whom the Selkirk Mountain Range in the western Rocky Mountains was named? Dick Pingrey 908C **************************************************************************** From Ric Nope. Different guy. Alexander Selkirk (originally Selcraig) was born in 1676 in Largo, Fifeshire (Scotland, of course), the son of a shoemaker (or "souter" as in the U.S. Supreme Court justice David Souter, but we digress). In 1695, young Selkirk ran away to sea and fell in with a band of buccaneers. In September 1704, after a quarrel with the captain he was put ashore at his own request (!) on the uninhabited island of Mas a Tierre in the Juan Fernandez Group about 400 miles west of Valparaiso, Chile. He remained there alone for five years until he was discovered by an English ship in Febraury 1709. He died at sea in 1721 as a mate on a British ship. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:08:50 EST From: Anthony Lealand Subject: Radial motor on Canton The discussion on the radial motor taken from Niku to Canton ended with a comment that the helicopters never flew out away off Canton. So end of story. Perhaps officially they did not fly offshore, but maybe even at this late stage pilots are loath to admit such flights. Surely buddies on the base would remember such an odd object and could verify the arrival of a peice of ancient junk. Anthony Lealand **************************************************************************** From Ric But, so far, none has. One former-associate of Bruce Yoho's remembers that Bruce had an old engine propped up outside the maintenance shack for a while but he does not recall where it came from. Bruce recalls taking home movies of the actual recovery but he can't find them. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:11:28 EST From: Anthony Lealand Subject: Photos of Niku at Wigram Airforce Museum I live in Christchurch and would be able to see if it is possible to get a high resolution scan of the photo of the reef wreckage on Niku. Is there a file or collection number for the photo that will reference it at the museum? Anthony Lealand ************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks, but we have copy negatives of the photos at Wigram. The photo we need to scan is not at Wigram; it's at Oxford University in England. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:22:36 EST From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: WOJ WOJ is one of the call letters mentioned in Betty's logbook. Altho WOJ is listed in the postwar Berne station listings, I am unable to determine when the station began. I suggest 1935 or 1936, because that is when AT&T's WO* stations first appear, located in New Jersey and Florida. If i recall, the Berne list does not show the owner, but it the station can be associated with other known AT&T stations by the similar call, the location, and the stated service.I was unable to find in the radio enthusiast magazines of the period, any reception report on WOJ, altho there are frequent mentions of WOO and another WO* station or 2. I would guess, that WOJ was the call letters for an infrequently used frequency channel, or was a call letter assigned AT&T and maybe held but practically never used. These stations at first were dual purpose, serving telephone system interface to both overseas telephones and to ships, but it appears over the years the land service faded away, no doubt with improved cable capacity and finally, satellite systems. In fact, satellite communications is what finally did these AT&T stations in: AT&T closed all their remaining HF stations on Feb. 28, 1999, so after that date the call letters WOO, WOM, WOK, WOJ, and others would be unassigned. (This date per article in Popular Communications.) There are still a couple, just a couple, of stations in the USA providing SSB telephone access to ships, one on Alabama coast and one at San Francisco (if i'm not mistaken). Clearly, HF voice radio is in a steady decline in use. As to why Betty wrote down "WOJ", that's still open. I think it was discussed that she was writing down possibilities for what she might have heard. Another possiblity is that she briefly heard a snatch of actual WOJ. In the Betty reception scene, we are pretty much agreed that if it happened, it had to happen on one of the higher wavebands, multiples of AE's transmitter channels, that means approximately 12 - 18 MHz. ( Higher? not likely i think - harmonic output from AE's transmitter at higher frequencies "might" be too low to be useful. Also - her neighbor was able to hear parts of it - and "assuming" his radio was not a top-end, high cost set, unlike Betty's, it would not be expected to tune much higher than 18 or 20 MHz). In those days, radios were just not that stable on the high ranges - no amount of bucks could buy you total stability. That means that unless the radio had been warming up for hours before Betty used it, and she tuned in after switching it on, you would expect that after 15 or 20 minutes at 15 MHz or above, you would need to readjust the tuning on whatever she was listening to, and then again maybe after the same period of time. What i am suggesting is a possible explanation of how WOJ or snatch of whatever other communcation got mixed up in there- perhaps in the tweaking of the tuning knob to try to bring the station in better, something else was briefly brought in. "Howland Port" ??? "WOJ" ??? There is (was) a WOJ, but at Hialeah, not Howland. Hue Miller **************************************************************************** From Ric My personal opinion is that all the agonizing over WOJ is for naught. According to Betty's notebook she heard either W40K or WOJ. We've already determined that there was a HAM, Francis Carroll, with the call sign W40K living in Palm Beach, FL at the time (and on the same propagation path from Gardner as Batty in St. Pete) and who, at least anecdotally, claimed to have talked to Earhart. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:29:27 EST From: Ron Bright Subject: Reception by Swan? Rereading Devine's book, he cites an interview with Itasca Radioman O'hare claiming that the Swan received the last known AE signal (the 08:43 LOP),some 2000 miles away. Any record of the Swan receiving that signal ? It seems to me he later retracted that claim. LTM, Ron Bright **************************************************************************** From Ric We have Swan's deck log. There is no mention of hearing anything from Earhart. I'm not even sure that Swan had voice capability on Earhart's frequencies. Had Swan heard anything it's hard to imagine that it would not have been mentioned in any of the official reports. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:45:28 EST From: Allan Rickman Subject: Re: Radio Propagation The Itasca carried radio transmitters were calibrated to 7500,6210,3105,500 & 425 kilocycles. The Itasca's radio direction finder frequency range was from 550 to 570 kilocycles. This was a low frequency radio direction finder which was permanent equiptment aboard ship. There was also an emergency high frequency Navy radio direction finder, sent from Pearl Harbor, which was installed on Howland Island. This was powered by the ship's gun batterys, which had run down during the night, so apparently no one realized that it wasn't working. This was accompanied by a Richard Black, an official of the Dept. of the Interior,who was also a personal representative of G.P. ,who also later became a Rear Admiral in the Navy. By the way, does anyone know anything about an XC-35 or NR16020 /R16020/N16020 ? There seems to have been several planes with this number or alot of changes to one planes number. LTM Allan Rickman **************************************************************************** From Ric Where are you getting your information Allan? What made Black a "personal representative" of George Putnam? Dick Black was an employee of the U.S. Dept. of the Interior and certainly not the representative of any private citizen. The XC-35 was, and is, a one-off pressurized version of the Lockheed Model 10. The airplane is now stored at the Garber Facility in Suitland, Maryland. I've crawled all through it. Earhart's Electra was constructor's number 1055 (the 55th Model 10 built). Before delivery to AE on July 24, 1936 it was registered X16020 because it was in the Experimental category while Lockheed checked out the special long-range fuel system. When it was delivered to Earhart she registered it as R16020 because it was licensed only in the Resticted category until it was approved for international flight at which time it became NR16020. That approval was granted in September 1936 but they didn't paint the N on the airplane until about January 1937. Many years after Earhart disappeared, her friend Paul Mantz registered his Lockheed 12A "Electra Junior" N16020 in memory of Amelia. Later the airplane was sold and crashed. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:01:06 EST From: Denise Subject: Tom Hanks Well, I think it's great that Tom Hanks got the idea of doing "Castaway" from you guys, but I think it needs to be said that the reality of the castaway situation completely fazed him. During filming in Fiji he cut his foot on a piece of coral and the subsequent infection immediately sent him running from the islands ... and all further filming was done on a Hollywood sound stage. Seems it was just too much "real life" for his taste! LTM (who thinks Amelia would have preferred to have been given the Tom Hanks choice) Denise **************************************************************************** From Ric Well, that's Hollywood. As you know, it's easy to get cut on coral but there's no excuse for letting it become infected if you have modern medical facilities available. You have to aggressively treat the cut with hydrogen peroxide and keep it clean and dry - and you'll still have a nice scar for a while. On the other hand, if you're a real castaway, infection, and ultimately blood poisoning, from a coral cut is probably the biggest threat you face. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:04:07 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Satellite photos I re-read the post, and got to thinking. There was an outfit that was selling images from Soviet satellites I saw in an old catalog. Probably Nice site, but Niku or its co-ordinates are not in the data base. I got a good photo of my backyard, though. Dan Postellon Tighar#2263 LTM (who is watching) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:06:08 EST From: David Evans Katz Subject: Canton Canton Island was also, I believe, Eddie Rickenbacker's intended destination when he went down in the Pacific during WWII. I may be wrong (it has been many years since I read the story), but I think that the flight crew somehow missed their intended mark and the plane ran out of fuel while searching for Canton. Is this correct, or is my memory failing me? David Evans Katz **************************************************************************** From Ric Yes, you are correct and yes, your memory is failing you (like all of us). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:08:18 EST From: Phil Tanner Subject: Technical queries I wonder if someone could email me off list phil.tanner@talk21.com with two bits of advice: I use Outlook Express and Explorer 5 1. I have accidentally blocked Forum messages and they go straight to my "deleted items" folder. I drag them from there, but it's a pain. I wanted to block another sender who was sending verbiage to a soccer list I subscribe to. After pulling down the "item" menu I clicked on "block sender", which offers three dots and therefore, I thought, would show further options. However, it cut out the middleman and put an immediate block on the sender of the message I happened to be in - which unfortunately was a Forum message, not one from the original nuisance. Creating a new rule to route them to my "Earhart" folder doesn't work as the block seems to supersede the new rule. 2. When I post to the list and a message comes back moderated, extra line feeds appear making it harder to read. The same applies to postings from several other Forum members - Ross Wombat and Hue Muller for two. My email works via a mailbox and via a web page, and if I post from the web page line feeds come back in the more normal format. Anything I can do at this end to compress the incoming text? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:04:05 EST From: Doug Brutlag Subject: Tom Hanks Just curious Ric. Have you issued a membership card for Mr. Hanks yet? Perhaps as a member he'd like to come down and have a beer with the TIGHAR guys & gals. I saw the movie recently and while I enjoyed the entertainment, the ditching scenario was just more movie B.S. FedEx got their money's worth. Doug Brutlag #2335 *************************************************************************** From Ric No, we've not sent Mr. Hanks a membership card. He knows who we are and how to get in touch with us if he's interested in our work. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:56:33 EST From: Janet Whitney Subject: Satellite Images If you do a Web search through Google (www.google.com) on the string (no quotes) "satellite and images and earth" there appear to be hundreds of Web sites that offer satellite immages...free or for sale. I recently saw an article somewhere (possibly the NY Times) about satellite images for sale with 1 meter resolution....with certain military bases "off limits." Janet Whitney **************************************************************************** From Ric If anybody comes up with a satellite photo of Niku with 1 meter resolution please let me know. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:06:22 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Radio Propagation Actually, Richard Black was GPP's representative for Howland Island. He had agreed to that somewhat reluctantly way back in March, 1937. **************************************************************************** From Ric Is there correspondence on that? Was he paid? Why would Putnam need a "representative" at Howland? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:15:43 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Tom Hanks Somehow, it strikes me that if Tom Hanks is truly interested in the Earhart/Niku saga (rather than using it for P.R. value to plug his film) he is in a position where he can pay for his own membership or assist in the funding/undertaking of the research and expeditions, themselves. --Chris Kennedy **************************************************************************** From Ric I agree. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:21:35 EST From: John Dipi Subject: Re: Canton David, your memory is not failing you and neither is mine. I was stationed on CANTON WITH CO L 102nd INFANTRY FROM FEB 1942 UNTIL JUNE OR JULY 1942. MOST OF THE MEN WERE FROM TORRINGTON CONNECTICUT. ONE OF THE MEN ON THE RICKENBACKER PLANE WAS FROM TORRINGTON CT. HE WAS THE ONLY ONE ON THE RAFT THAT LOST HIS LIFE. HIS NAME WAS EDDIE KACZMARCK . SO YOU SEE DAVID WE ALL ARE NOT LOSING OUR MIND ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:29:55 EST From: Hue Miller Subject: Re W40K - new development If a supposition is that W4OK actually communicated with AE, or that AE heard W4OK and tried to call him, what might be the frequency or frequency band used? Remember the constraints of the loop antenna on the plane, its frequency limitation. And the differing liklihood of the different frequencies making the daylight path to Florida. Also why the puzzling notation "Howland port" ?? Anyone have a suggestion why that shows up in Betty's logbook? That would have to come from AE trying to raise a Howland station, yes? And in this view, maybe using the ham call letters because that's what she heard while tuning around? But still, this runs right into the antenna & frequency problem. Unless, the top, main aerial actually also served as receive antenna. ( Technically, also possible if the top antenna served as "sense" antenna as well as transmit antenna - in the RDF-1 system, the loop antenna input is nonfunctional above - we guess - 8000 kHz - but the sense antenna input is still there. That would require her switching, exasperated, from the "Bearing" position of the RDF-1 to the "Direction" position. ) Input? Argument? Hue Miller *************************************************************************** From Ric Seems to me that you're making a lot of assumptions about the RDF system. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:32:03 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Hanks/Crusoe There is a great column in today's Wall Street Journal called "Tom Hanks, You're No Robinson Crusoe" (p. A-22). This is in line with Ric's comments on the classic story "Robinson Crusoe" vs. Tom Hanks Hollywood opus, and the fact that Crusoe is not read today because it is politically incorrect. The column concludes as follows: "Robinson Crusoe's story is a classic of trial and redemption; Chuck's [Hanks] story has no meaning, because Chuck learns nothing, except that he needs to look for a new girlfriend........Chuck Nolan is truly a man of our times, lacking any inner life, having little to think about other than a lost love. He has no sense of religion and is utterly incapable of seaking meaning in his experiences or his life. Perhaps Nolan really is our everyman, a thoroughly modern man, sensitive to the environment and to relationships. But he is no Robinson Crusoe." --Chris Kennedy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:35:39 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Kanton, Photos and Engines Doug B. wrote: (Canton or Kanton-which is it Ric?) Besides Pan Am using it as a stepping stone to Austrailia, the Air Force had an installation built during WWII and was abandoned in the 1960's. NASA built a satellite tracking station there in 1965 and abandoned it in 1967. All this talk about photos of Kanton reminds me of a loose thread. Why doesn't someone (I assume a member in California?) track down the aerial photos that the Air Force took of Kanton in the 1970's. The photos were taken to track the clean up effort before the AF bugged out. Bruce's engine might show up in one of those photos as it appears it was buried during the cleanup. It at least might show where it was. LTM Kenton S. **************************************************************************** From Ric How do we know photos were taken? If they were, by this time they might be in the National Archive. Do you recall the source on this? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:19:05 EST From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: Satellite Images >From Ric > > If anybody comes up with a satellite photo of Niku with 1 meter resolution > please let me know. I think this is a red herring. The maps available online or through various sales agencies seem to concentrate on: weather ex-military missions places that are populated I doubt very much that any 1-meter photos were ever taken of Niku. There are said to be three start-up companies providing hi-resolution photos (down to about 2-meter details). One of them may have its own satellite. The one company named that I saw (Space Imagery Inc of Thornton, Colorado) seemed not to have a web site and only deals in orders of about $1600 and up. Even if they could be persuaded to shoot Niku, I suspect that the TIGHAR team already knows about most objects that size on Niku that would be visible from the air (i.e., not hidden under the scaevola--hey, Ric, is there a nickname for that stuff that is easier to spell and more romantic?). Of course, I have not proven that the photos do not exist. What I'm really saying is that the ten minutes I spent looking for them discourages me from looking any further. ;o) Marty #2359 **************************************************************************** From Ric The Gilbertese call scaevola "te mao." We often call it "'vola" (as we call Nikumaroro "Niku"). We also call it other names that can't be published. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:19:41 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Sateliite Images Here it is. Do you want to pursue this or drop it? Dan From: Joe, Eric [mailto:EJoe@SpaceImaging.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 4:10 PM To: 'Daniel.Postellon@spectrum-health.org' Cc: Niamke, Rosalind; Sears, Greg Subject: RE: TIGHAR Dear Mr. Postellon: Thank you for your interest in Space Imaging's products and services. In order to serve you better, we need you to provide your area of interest in coordinates. Note that the one you provide is over water in the Pacific Ocean. And depending on what type of resolution(details) you like, we have different satellite to suit your needs there. Please also visit us at http://www.spaceimaging.com/level2/level2products.htm for a description of different products. Kind Regards, Eric S. Joe Customer Service Representative Space Imaging www.spaceimaging.com ejoe@spaceimaging.com Ph 1-800-232-9037 Fax 301-552-3762 From: Customer Services Dept. Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 7:45 PM To: Joe, Eric Subject: FW: TIGHAR From: Daniel.Postellon@spectrum-health.org [mailto:Daniel.Postellon@spectrum-health.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:11 AM To: info@spaceimaging.com Subject: TIGHAR I am a member of a non-profit organization, . They will be running an expedition to Nikumaroro, Kiribati (4.6666667 degrees S, 174.5333333 degrees W) in September of 2001 to look for evidence of the end of Amelia Earhart. Details are available on the website. I do not speak for the organization, but would you consider providing them data prior to the expedition, or providing news satellite photos during the expedition? Daniel Postellon I tried to see if Spaceimaging would do a free one for us, but did not get a reply. You can order a custom photo (1 meter resolution B+W or 4 meter resolution in color) for about $3,000. I also suggested that maybe they would want to take a photo of Niku 4. Dan Postellon TIGHAR#2263 **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Dan. This has real possibilities and I intend to follow up on it directly with Spaceimaging. If we're really talking about ballpark $3,000 and we can get one meter resolution (especially if we can see down through the water to a depth of at least 10 meters) it would be money well-spent. It's not in the budget but I'm sure the TIGHAR membership would rise to the challenge. We would, of course, put the image up on the TIGHAR website. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:21:07 EST From: Mike Everette Subject: Cast Away Admittedly this is a borderline thread, but: If you have not seen "Cast Away" I highly recommend it. This movie will give you a real appreciation for how difficult it is to get on/off an island with a coral reef. Also the magnitude of the challenge to keep oneself alive when all is lost. As for whether Tom Hanks' character "does not learn anything" -- BULL. He learns that in the face of everything else, one must keep on keeping on... never give up! Because one never knows what may come one's way, what opportunity or answer may lie around the corner. And the character states this. Therein is a lesson for us TIGHARS. LTM (who likes movies) and 73 Mike E. (who also is a writer, screenwriter, and writing teacher) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:23:47 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Black as GP's rep. Yes, there is correspondence on this. Putnam needed a man "on the scene" at Howland, and contacted Black to do this. Normally, he had a variety of "hacks" or newsmen doing this, but because of the Coast Guard ship being the main transportation to Howland, there were restrictions on number of people who could go. While there were newsmen at Howland for the 1st and 2nd attempts, they were folks that GPP apparently couldn't rely upon. There was probably a connection between Bill Miller, GPP's coordinator on the first attempt and also former head of Howland/Baker/Jarvis Island colonization scheme, and Dick Black, present head of colonization. Miller probably told GPP that this would be an easy job for Black to do, he was a good man, etc etc. Putnam wrote/cabled Black to enlist his help. Remember, on the second attempt, Black was coordinating radiomessages until Thompson took over after the disappearance. He was acting as Putnam's agent. **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Randy. I hadn't realized that the relationship was that formalized. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:35:23 EST From: Tom Byers Subject: Re W40K - new development The 3105 kc and 6210 kc frequencies (HF) were reserved for aircraft transmissions only. Reception should have been on another frequency 500 kc (?) . Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that amateur radio operators would communicate directly with her. Since the antenna for 500 kc under the plane did not work (lost during takeoff) she could not hear the Attics calling her. The HF antenna on the top of the aircraft was still functional. She may not have been aware that the one antenna was not working. It is my assumption that she was depending on homing in on the 500 kc transmissions from the Itasca. Had her antenna worked she would have found Howland Island and completed her flight. Tom Byers (Springfield, MO) **************************************************************************** From Ric There is a growing body of evidence that HAMs and shortwave listeners heard Earhart on harmonics of her primary frequencies (3105 and 6210). There's still a lot of debate about what antenna was used for what, but the best evidence (in my opinion) suggests that the dorsal vee antenna on top of the airplane was for transmitting only. The belly wire antenna was for receiving only, as was the Bendix loop over the cockpit. The loss of the belly wire at Lae removed the airplane's capability to receive anything unless the loop was selected. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:12:21 EST From: Hue Miller Subject: Re W40K - new development Ric wrote: > Seems to me that you're making a lot of assumptions about the RDF system. Maybe i am jumping ahead, but what i have suggested is nothing that is incompatible with the specs of the RDF-1, as presented in the (Navy) text and schematic. We have the observations - now we need to move around facts, to see which ones fit toward completing the puzzle. Hue Miller **************************************************************************** From Ric Although both Bendix products, one of the few things we do know is that the coupler installed in Earhart's Electra was NOT like the RDF-1 described in the Navy literature. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:14:22 EST From: Zach Lions Subject: Trying to track down a novel It was suggested by the kind folks at tighar.org that someone amongst you may be able to help me with my search to track down a novel. My years ago I read a ridiculous novel concerning a plot by Nazi Germany to clone - or rather reproduce - Hitler by impregnating a woman with his genetic material. The central theme involved the incarceration of Amelia Earhart by the nazis. I have neither the author nor book title and am thus obliged to search through anything connected with Amelia! All that I can add to the plot is that the woman who is carrying the clone is incarcarated on a Scottish island for some of the period of her pregnancy before giving birth to a daughter! The novel concludes with the Mossad having tracked the mother and daughter down with the intention of assassinating the daughter. Have you ever come across such a novel in the course of your intensive research into Amelia? And if so, would you be so kind as to forward me the details. This search has been going on for many years now and it's very frustrating. If you don't recognise the novel, perhaps you could suggest another avenue for my search to continue in. If anyone feels they can, I would be most grateful to hear from them at zachryan65@hotmail.com Thank you for your time, please excuse the intrusion Have enjoyed very much following the discussions on this site. Fascinating stuff! Zach Lyons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:22:04 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Black as GP's rep. My thought on learning that Putnam had a "man on the scene" is that this could open up a whole new avenue of inquiry. I would suppose that Black reported back to Putnam about what he had observed on the morning of the disappearance, since that appears to have been his purpose for being there in the first place. Perhaps this is at the root of Putnam's insistence that Earhart landed in the Phoenix isles. Randy, do you know of a way we could see if Black made a written report, notes, etc.? If he has any surviving relatives, perhaps these could be contacted to see if they have any documents or recollections of what Black may have told Putnam. Ric, have we gotten any word back from the Putnam descendants who are members of TIGHAR on our earlier inquiries? --Chris Kennedy **************************************************************************** From Ric I'm not aware of any report Black made to Putnam but he did write a brief report for the Dept. of the Interior which basically concurs with Thompson's conclusion that the plane crashed at sea. Putnam's descendants have responded to my query and are not aware of any story about anything important being found in a suitcase or briefcase in a closet following Earhart's disappearance. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:49:20 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Black as GP's rep. Black's personal records are now at the Naval Historical Center, being cataloged by someone on the forum, IIRC. I've not had a chance to see them. Black's relationship to Putnam appears to be strictly one of providing logistical support. For example, Putnam needed gas to be placed on Howland Island, and needed someone to ensure it got there. He also needed someone onboard the Itasca to ensure that weather reports were provided to AE via Tutuilla Naval Radio Station and the Fleet Air Base, Pearl Harbor.. It was GPP's way of making sure things got done. From Black's perspective, it was probably no big deal, except for dealing with petty issues from a civilian that really wasn't his true job overseeing the colonization of the islands. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:07:04 EST From: Janet Whitney Subject: Suitcase in Closet I was talking to a grrl at school who is doing a research paper on Eleanor Roosevelt. As is generally known among feminist scholars, Eleanor Roosevelt was bisexual. She carried on more-or-less openly with several women during the mid 1930's. One of the women was a journalist named Lorena Hitchkock. I don't subscribe to the "Betty" theory of radio communication. However, for those who do, if Amelia Earhart were keeping a diary of what was going on at the White House during her visits and her encounters with various friends of Eleanor Roosevelt, such a diary could be extremely embarrasing to the Roosevelts if someone other than the Putnam family were to find it while searching through AE's possessions after AE's disappearance. Janet Whitney **************************************************************************** From Ric I have to admit Janet, you do come up with some good ones. I've never seen anything about AE keeping a diary. She wrote lots of letters, many of which have been published, and she kept journals during her flights which were always intended for publication. It's hard for me to imagine that someone marooned on a desert island, desperate for help, fearing for their life, would worry about something like you suggest. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:13:03 EST From: Capt. J.C. Clark Subject: Grace McGuire plans to retrace AEs route with 1835 Lockheed Electra 10E Have you noticed recent article originating Old Bridge, NJ, about flyer Grace McGuire's plans to retrace Amelia Earhart's route with a 1935 Lockheed Electra 10E? This appeared in todays New Orleans Times-Picayune. I will mail you copy. Regards, Capt. J. W. Clark, 2205 **************************************************************************** From Ric Yes, I've known Grace McGuire for years. Anyone who thought Linda Finch was strange has a real treat in store. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:16:05 EST From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Sateliite Images Ric wrote: >If we're really talking about ballpark $3,000 >and we can get one meter resolution (especially if we can see down through >the water to a depth of at least 10 meters) it would be money well-spent. >It's not in the budget but I'm sure the TIGHAR membership would rise to the >challenge. We would, of course, put the image up on the TIGHAR website. Well, if you're starting a fund, I'm in for $100.00 I'd love to see hi-res image of Niku. LTM Simon #2120 *************************************************************************** From Ric Thank you! Let me make sure they can deliver before I start passing the pith helmet. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:21:27 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Canton Photos Ric Wrote: How do we know photos were taken [of Kanton in the 1970's]? If they were, by this time they might be in the National Archive. Do you recall the source on this? Well...of course I have a source....in fact it is in my library. John Clauss put together a report on the Kanton Enviro mess following the TIGHAR-engine trip. The report includes info that John retrieved from the Air Force (from I believe the archive at Vandenburg (sp?)). Anyway, John's report includes a schedule (an Air Force doc) for the clean up of the island. (I think Kris T. helped John on this??) The schedule includes taking aerial photos to track the progress of the contractor. I have mentioned this before but I suppose the Forum folks have forgotten. At one time Don Jordan was going to try and look for the photos and I think he contacted John C. and possibly Russ M. to see if they could help with the search. It seems to me to be something worth looking for. LTM Kenton Spading (who will be off-line off and on Jan 16 thru Jan 30, 2001) *************************************************************************** From Ric Yes, I have the same report. The Air Force said a lot of things about how they were going to clean up the island and most of it never happened. The place is a disgrace. If aerial photos ever got taken they're probably at Vandenberg where John and Kris found the paperwork. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:22:15 EST From: R. Gross Subject: Re: Black as GP's rep. As to any surviving relatives of Adm. Richard Black an article appeared in the Washington Post, August 12, 1992, Pg. D04, concerning his death. The article probably named surviving children, if any. His wife, Aziza, died in 1992. Both are buried at Arlington Cemetery. REG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:53:17 EST From: Hue Miller Subject: Re W40K - new development > From Ric > > Although both Bendix products, one of the few things we do know is that the > coupler installed in Earhart's Electra was NOT like the RDF-1 described in > the Navy literature. Depends how you define "is". The circuitry (amplifier stages and basic functioning, including switch functions) certainly was. Do i need to expand on this? As is see it, the only question is the actual frequency range. IF Betty heard W4OK (or even WOJ) we still need to work on how AE, who presumably transmitted that callsign, received a signal with that callsign in the first place. Or do I have this scene not right? We think that AE's reaching FL in the daylight had to be in the harmonic range 12-18 MHz, is this agreed? This frequency range also applies for the reverse path, to the South Pacific from FL at the same time. IF AE's main receive antenna was gone, the only way she could have heard anything on frequencies higher than the loop range would be via the sense antenna operating by itself, is this correct? (In the "Direction" mode, the loop antenna adds two sources, the loop and the sense). That would mean the sense antenna had to uptop. Lots of pieces to the puzzle that don't fit well, and too many missing. I am fishing for inputs on this. Hue Miller *************************************************************************** From Ric Bob Brandenburg is very close to finishing his report on whether, and how, Betty may have heard Earhart. When that is finished we'll put it up on the website and that can be our starting place for trying to determine how likely, or unlikely, it was that there was some exchange between Carroll (W40K) and Earhart. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:05:33 EST From: TL Simpson Subject: Secret bones Why did the British in Mr. Gallagher's time want to keep the bone and shoe discovery secret? No member # yet TL Simpson *************************************************************************** From Ric Ascribing motives is always dicey, but we do have the High Commissioner's response to suggestions that the American Consul in Sydney be notified. On October 26, 1940, Sir Harry Luke wrote in the file: "(B)etter I think await the arrival of the remains etc. Thinnest rumours which may in the end prove unfounded are liable to be spread." When the "remains etc." finally did arrive in Fiji the following spring, an examination by Dr. Hoodless resulted in the opinion that the bones were those of a short, stocky male - not Amelia Earhart. By that time there was, in fact, a new American Consul resident in Fiji but he was apparently never informed about the matter. Tom King has recently done some archival rersearch which seems to shed new light on why Sir Harry did not bring the American Consul into his confidence. I'll let him tell you about it himself. Over to you Tom. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:10:57 EST From: Phil Tanner Subject: Cholera in Kiribati From the Radio Australia web site 11 Jan: Health authorities in Kiribati have issued a cholera warning,following a similar outbreak in the Marshall Islands. The Director of Public Health, Dr Airam Meetai, says the disease usually lasts one year and people must take precautions. He warns people must boil drinking water, avoid eating raw food and wash their hands before eating. Dr Meetai said his Ministry will monitor the arrival of overseas visitors, particularly from the Marshall Islands. Visitors will also be told not to bring with them any fresh food. **************************************************************************** From Ric As now scheduled, Earhart Expedtion team member Van Hunn and I will be visiting Tarawa from March 6 to March 15 to do archival research, collect anecdotes, and coordinate with government officials. We shall endeavor to not contract cholera. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:16:39 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: Satellite images Ric said: "Let me make sure they can deliver before I start passing the pith helmet." Yeah, especially the part about being able to "see" to a depth of -- what was it? -- 10 meters. Having sensors detect objects under water is old hat, i.e. sonar etc., but being able to detect objects from hundreds of miles away is a whole different league. And I suspect what they may detect are "anomalies" not specific identifiable objects. I'd like to see the science on this stuff before I whip out my checkbook. LTM, who is no Luddite, but "senses" a marketing effort Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:21:27 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: Grace McGuire You know. . . there're going to keep this up until we loose another 10E out there! Don ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:29:19 EST From: Janet Whitney Subject: Re: Suitcase in the Closet After reading "Last Flight" awhile ago, I thought: "She must have kept a diary. I wonder what happened to it after she disappeared?" I was in Borders yesterday and saw the first volume of what will be a multi-volume biography of Eleanor Roosevelt - Volume 1 ends in 1933. According to the biographer, Eleanor wanted to learn to fly but FDR would not allow it. There was also a book with a few hundred notes and letters sent by Eleanor Roosevelt to Lorena Hickok. Lorena Hickok saved over 3000 of Eleanor Roosevelt's letters (and destroyed over 300). They are archived somewhere. AE's mother did not like FDR. It appears her sister didn't either. If I subscribed to the "Betty" theory, the message about the "suitcase in the closet" could be a warning to GPP to retrieve the suitcase before some other family member did. Janet Whitney **************************************************************************** From Ric Your investigative methodology is in the finest Earhart tradition. You decided that she must have kept a diary, then wondered what happened to it, and have now found a possible reference to it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:30:41 EST From: Doug Brutlag Subject: Re: Grace McGuire Is this lady serious? Doug Brutlag #2335 *************************************************************************** From Ric Trust me. She's serious. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:47:08 EST From: Janet Whitney Subject: Re: W4OK If there is to be an analysis of FG Carroll's (W4OK) ham operating habits, have the following sources been consulted? American Radio Relay League (monthly magaine 'QST' has been published for over 85 years and is now available on CD), CQ magazine (ham magazine largely devoted to contests and DX chasing) which has been published for about 45 years, Quarter Century Wireless Association (ham organization for old timers), Old Old Timers Club (another ham organization for old timers), Ham radio clubs in the St. Petersburg area, Ham radio clubs in the Palm Beach area, Ham emergency communications organizations in Florida, Hams who may have attended Mr. Carroll's funeral. I assume Mr. Carroll retained logbooks, photos of ham equipment, and other ham radio records and that TIGHAR contacted his daughter about these records. I'm not a ham, so this is not an extensive list. Janet Whitney *************************************************************************** From Ric You may not be a ham but you are priceless. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:08:41 EST From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: Suitcase in the Closet > From Ric > > Your investigative methodology is in the finest Earhart tradition. You > decided that she must have kept a diary, then wondered what happened to > it, and have now found a possible reference to it. As Mark Twain is said to have said, "First, get the facts, then you can distort them at your leisure." The suitcase line is definitely one of the oddities of Betty's transcript. Here come some "ifs" and "thens": -- If the transcript is authentic ... -- If the suitcase reference is an accurate transcription ... -- Then I think that Amelia expected to survive ... -- and I argue that she must have wanted the suitcase checked for some other reason. (If George looks in the suitcase, it will lead him to Niku???) I haven't seen anybody playing any soundex games with "suitcase" as were played with "New York City" (Norwich City). Marty #2359 **************************************************************************** From Ric I agree. Nothing in the notebook smacks of "saying goodbye." Quite the contrary - it's all about struggling to survive. Logically, the reference to the suitcase should in some way be tied to increasing her chances of rescue. Here's a thought: In the Purdue collection is a regular old National Geographic map of the Pacific with pencilled markings noting the latitude and longitude in the central Pacific region and Enderbury Island in the Phoenix Group underlined. It's the only document associated with Earhart that I've ever seen that specifically draws attention to the Phoenix Group. It was obviously not on the flight because it survived to become part of the Purdue collection (duh). If it was left home it could have been with a bunch of other papers in a suitcase or briefcase. Pure speculation, but not as pure as speculation about AE's possible concern about emabarrassing Elanor Roosevelt. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:55:14 EST From: Dave Porter Subject: AE and Eleanor Roosevelt Wow, Janet has come up with the best conspiracy theory ever. AE had notes about Eleanor's bisexuality, and to keep her quiet, the gov't makes sure she's lost in the Pacific. The other President Roosevelt (Teddy) wouldn't have put up with crap like this. (and probably would've thought Niku a cool place to do a little fishing and bird hunting) LTM, who wonders if a pith helmet is anything like a thunderbox (grin) Dave Porter, 2288 *************************************************************************** From Ric Now THAT'S funny. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:59:54 EST From: Tom King Subject: Secret bones <> Thanks, Ric. I've spent a couple of days in the U.S. National Archives this week, looking at the records of the U.S. Consular Office (later Consulate) in Suva, 1940-44. Unfortunately, State Dept. records are organized by subject, not station, so finding the Suva records involves wading through lots and lots of documents on all manner of other places -- some amazing stories there. Anyhow, I have more work to do, but what's come to light so far is that Wainwright Abbott, the U.S. Consul, had no use whatever for Western Pacific High Commissioner and Governor of Fiji Sir Harry Luke, and felt (among many other things) that Sir Harry was biased against the U.S.. This is quite at odds with what others have told us, and I can't begin to say what lies behind it, but if the two didn't get along, it might have discouraged Sir Harry from talking with Abbott about the bones. Of course, Sir Harry had reason to be a bit distant with Americans, given the continuing competition over possession of the Phoenix and Line Islands (to which the U.S. gave up claims only in 1979), and considering some other irritants like Admiral Byrd's removal of parts of the HMS Bounty wreck from Pitcairn Island as souveniers for President Roosevelt. The U.S. yacht Wing-On was also wrecked in Fiji about this time (another remarkable, tragic story), and although the British authorities seem to have handled the matter with a great deal of delicacy and courtesy, there was a good deal of controversy, verging on litigation, between the U.S. State Dept. and the representative of the wreck's sole survivor, which (to the extent it was known to the British authorities) may have discouraged reporting potentially controverial discoveries. Sir Harry was replaced in mid-1942 by Major-General Sir Philip Mitchell, about whom Abbott was quite bullish. Mitchell apparently rather thoroughly reorganized his office as Governor of Fiji; he may well have reorganized the WPHC offices as well. If so, this might have provided a context in which (particularly combined with the confusion of the War) both the bones and records of them could have gone astray. I need to get back to the Archives for at least another day before I'll have a reasonable fix on this, but one thing it tells me is that it would be really, REALLY good to take a hard look at Sir Harry's papers, which are housed at Oxford. LTM Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:02:11 EST From: Tom King Subject: WWII question This will doubtless seem like a really dumb question to those on the Forum who know all about World War II, but can somebody give me the actual date on which the Japanese took Tarawa? All I can find in the sources I have around here just says it happened shortly after Pearl Harbor. Anybody have details? Yes, there's a reason for my query, which almost certainly has nothing to do with our topic, but does relate to getting a better understanding of what was happening around the time the bones disappeared. Thanks in advance for any help. LTM Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:04:16 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: satellite photo I've been thinking about what we could get from the spaceimaging photo. At the very least, it would provide an accurate and current map of Nikumaroro. There are archeological remote sensing discussion groups on the internet. I will try to see if there are any specific signatures for graves or aluminum, particularly underwater aluminum. The heavy vegetation is a problem. The photo of Baker Island shows features that look like foundations of Quonset huts or other long narrow buildings quite well, but Baker does not have trees. We may have a lot to offer them. I think that Niku 4 is a great photo op, and I expect that the Nai'a would show up well at that resolution. Besides that, you have a tropical atoll with an old shipwreck. We can also give them ground truth comparison in a remote area, maybe a target verified by GPS to calibrate latitude and longitude, or a large piece of aluminum on the island or in the lagoon to determine if that can be seen by the satellite. The real prize would be if the photo could suggest a site that turned out to be part of the Electra! There is a NASA site that briefly mentions the space shuttle photos and the search for AE, but the resolution of those photos is too low to be useful. Daniel Postellon TIGHAR#2263 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:09:30 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Suitcase in the Closet Interesting thought, Ric. If we can assume, for a moment, that the lat/lon notations and the underlining of Enderbury was done by Earhart or Noonan, do you have any thoughts as to what was special about Enderbury at the time that could've caused Earhart/Nooonan to make the notations/underline it rather than any of the other islands in the group? Do we know who gave the map to the Purdue collection, or how it ended up there? Of course, a counterargument to all this is why Earhart was being so cryptic by referring to suitcases for clues----if she knew where she was why not just say so ("On Enderbury....Gardiner...in Phoenix isles"....whatever). --Chris Kennedy *************************************************************************** From Ric Randy, help me out here. Wasn't Enderbury, along with Canton, claimed by the U.S.? But why underline Enderbury and not Canton, which is a lot bigger? Most of the Purdue collection came from George Putnam. Good point about being cryptic. Even if she wasn't sure what island she was on, why not make some reference to the Phoenix Group? It's a puzzlement. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:54:00 EST From: Nick Murray Subject: WWII answers I found the following narrative about one of the missionaries on Tarawa during WW2: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/janer/egan11.html Reading through it, it seems the Japanese landed twice on Tarawa, the first time on December 9, 1941, the second, just before Christmas, 1941. They didn't actually occupy Tarawa until September 3, 1942. I hope this helps! Nick Murray #2356CE **************************************************************************** From Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194: I don't have the book in front of me right now but I recommend you check: "Utmost Savagery: The Three Days of Tarawa" by Alexander. Very scholarly and thorough. I believe you will find your answers therein. 73 Mike E. *************************************************************************** From Phil Tanner The Encyclopedia Britannica site narrows it down very slightly to "the first few days of the war" and before 23 Jan 1942: "On the eastern perimeter of the war zone, the Japanese had bombed Wake Island on December 8, attempted to capture it on December 11, and achieved a landing on December 23, quickly subduing the garrison. Guam had already fallen on December 10. Having also occupied Makin and Tarawa in the Gilbert Islands in the first days of the war, the Japanese successfully attacked Rabaul, the strategic base on New Britain (now part of Papua New Guinea), on Jan. 23, 1942." A site on WWII history at http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/Pacific01.html says rather cryptically Guam surrendered Dec. 11 1st US possession to be occupied opened way for fall of Rabaul Tarawa on Dec. 9 and Makin Dec. 10 in Gilberts Another site on the Pacific War http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/chr/chr41-12.html also says the Japanese landed on Tarawa on 9th December. I imagine "landing" amounted to "taking" that early in the war. ltm Phil 2276 *************************************************************************** From J.W. Clark Tom King: According to my reference books, the Japanese landed on Tarawa and Makin on December 9, 1941. Regards. J.W.CLark ************************************************************************** From Cam warren Att: Tom King - According to the Encyclopedia of World History, Tarawa (and Makin) fell to the Japanese on December 10, 1941. Singapore, the source for the very effective British coast artillery pieces still to be found on Tarawa, were acquired after Singapore fell February 15, 1942 (source: me, who has been to both places). Cam Warren *************************************************************************** From Harry Poole > Tom, > > Here is another reference from Britanica: > > > "Supporting the assault on the Philippines, the Japanese bombed Wake Island > on December 8 and overcame fierce resistance from the tiny U.S. garrison on > December 23. By February 10, Guam and Tarawa in the Gilberts and Rabaul and > Gasmata on New Britain were occupied. Japan was now master of a vast empire > stretching from Manchuria to the East Indies and the border of India deep > into the western Pacific." > > LTM, > Harry Poole, #2300 **************************************************************************** From Tom King All right Harry! Thanks. So Tarawa was occupied by Feb. 10 1942. Now the reason for my question. Among the papers I reviewed earlier this week at the National Archives was document 819.857/150, relating to an alleged incident of cannibalism in a lifeboat from a torpedoed merchantman. No, this wasn't just my gristly archeological side coming out, I looked at it because it featured a lot of our old friends from the WPHC -- Secretary Vaskess, Education Director Holland, and Drs. Steenson and Isaac. But here's the funny thing: the key part of this multi-part document is a memorandum to Vaskess from Holland describing his interviews with the survivor who lodged the allegation, who had washed ashore with other survivors in the lifeboat at Tarawa on January 17th 1942 and been treated by Steenson and Isaac in hospital there. So now I know that Tarawa had not in fact necessarily been occupied by mid-January; THAT's a relief. However, Holland's memo is headed: "Education Department, Tarawa, 25th February, 1942." Unless I've stumbled into a time warp, I can only assume that the G&EI Education Department was still functioning as such in exile in Fiji, but still ascribing itself to Tarawa, at least a couple of weeks after Tarawa itself fell to the Japanese. Or does somebody have a better interpretation? If this seems a bit distant from the Earhart quest, let me just note that it does seem to indicate that Steenson and Isaac were on Tarawa in mid-January 1942, and that could turn out to be of some relevance. LTM (who doesn't countenance cannibalism or time shifts) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:54:54 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Suitcase in the Closet Another conspiracy theory: "suitcase" was Eleanor Roosevelt's code name. AE wanted GP to be sure that she remained "in the closet" Dan Postellon #2263 LTM (who avoided closets) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:03:09 EST From: Mike Muenich Subject: Suitcase When was the National Geographic map published? That would be the earliest date on which the notations could have been made and AE's date of departure closes the period. (From Ric - I couldn't find a date on the map.) Where is Enderbury Island in relation to the Phoenix Group and particularly Niku? (From Ric - see the map on the TIGHAR website at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/MapsandPhotos/maps/Phoenixmap.html) How does it fit with the 157/337 sun line? (From Ric - It doesn't. But remember that the 157/337 sunline only became significant once the actual date of the Lae/Howland flight became known. It might be interesting to see what the sunline would have been for the anticipated date of the Lae/Howland flight.) What is on Enderbury that might have made it attractive as an alternate? (From Ric - Nothing that I can think of.) Was it populated; did it have an area that was suitable for landing; was it closer to Howland? (From Ric - None of the above.) Mike Muenich ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:04:46 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Suitcase in the Closet Enderbury and Canton were claimed by the US in September, 1937, well after AE's disappearance. Not much was known in the US about either island at this time; most information derives from Brant's notes in Hawaii. Canton and Endurbury were visited in June, 1937 by the eclipse expedition, and perhaps someone noticed it at that time, who knows? Now I hate to be picky, but I have seen that National Geographic map with Enderbury's name underlined. But, we have no idea when it was underlined! It just might have been done after the disappearance. **************************************************************************** From Ric Very true. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:09:49 EST From: Ron Bright Subject: AE as a Linguist Recently some researchers have reported that AE spoke Japanese fluently.( Hence the possibility of AE communicating with the Japanese.) I see that a Pauline Coleman,a close friend of AE in Boston, reported in 1928 that AE spoke "five languages" fluently, but did not list the languages. AE was then teaching English to foreign students,mostly Chinese and Syrians. (Morrisey,p 73) I see that she took one course in French. Has the 12 year research into AE by Tighar,or anyone on this forum, ever developed any information, that she spoke and read Japanese? Ron Bright **************************************************************************** From Ric Personally, I think that's preposterous. Amelia Earhart never completed any course of higher education. Lots of dabbling and false starts, but no degree. She seems to have had an excellent grasp of English literature but I've never seen any reference to her having an ability in any foreign language. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:20:24 EST From: Ron Bright Subject: Go West Young Women I viewed the American Experience documentary made in 1993 for tv and narrated by David McCullough. Sure enough in an interview with Gore Vidal, he recounts his fathers assistance in planning the world flight, and added that when he (not sure if he is talking about Gore or himself) asked Amelia what she considered the most dangerous part of the flight would be, she answered "Africa",spelling out her reasons. Gore than says, well what about the long flight over the Pacific from Lae to Howland, and Amelia answers something like: if your lost, you can't miss an island at that "latitude". It does suggest as of 1993 that Gore believed she would head back on a west latitude if she missed Howland. We have hashed out Gore's Vidal quote before, but for those who want to see it come out of the horse's mouth, check it out of the Library. (Written by Nancy Porter) Also the takeoff film is good and one can see the "puff" in super slow motion. And lots of other anedotal stuff from Gore, such as "personnel problems" meant that FN was drinking again.The production does not go into any of the various theories of what happend after 0843. LTM, Ron Bright **************************************************************************** From Ric I have to take a couple of deep breaths before replying to this: The PBS American Experience documentary about Earhart is the shoddiest piece of work I've ever seen on public television. Rumor, innuendo, and outright falsehood presented as fact to support an agenda. For example: we're told that AE was kicked out of finishing school for walking on a window ledge in her nightgown. Never happened. In fact, AE voluntarily left the Ogontz School to be a nursing aid in Canada. The interview with Gore Vidal is laughable. He was 11 years old in 1937. He says he was with his father and GP in New York when AE phoned from Lae, but GP was in California when AE was in Lae and there was no phone service from New Guinea. Total garbage. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:23:52 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: satellite photo of Kanton Not as high resolution as the space imaging Ikonos satellite, but not bad. Dan Postellon #2263 *************************************************************************** From Ric Yeah, for some scale you can see the 7,000 East/West runway at the upper left corner of the atoll. It's a big island. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:32:00 EST From: TL Simpson Subject: Re: Secret bones thanks Mr King,I appricate your effort on the ,Secret bones .I started thinking cover up and I really did'nt want to go there. LTM.....Terry Simpson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:33:36 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Grace McGuire plans to retrace AEs route Does she plan to land at Gardner / Niku? *************************************************************************** From Ric Knowing Grace, she probably plans to run out of fuel and crash at sea. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:35:24 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Cholera in Kiribati This is off topic (sort of) but may interest people who'd like a little bit of insight into what Kiribas(ti) is like today away from Tarawa. These two pages are journals (with pics) of visits to Butaritari island in 1997 & Maiana island in 1998. http://www.collectors.co.nz/kiribati/butari3.html http://www.collectors.co.nz/kiribati/maiana.html They give a (very) little general insight into the people of these islands and are quite interesting. Dave Porter, 2288, wonders if a pith helmet is anything like a thunderbox (grin). Well, apparently "thunderboxes" and toilets of any kind were rare even in 1997 as Jonathan Willis-Richards wrote: "AND even the key to the toilet, a real luxury here as most "do it on the beach" with the tide as flush device." Hmm Cholera???? Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:39:24 EST From: Tom Byers Subject: Movie about Niku? An internet search on "Nikumaroro Island" brought up a movie starring Sandra Bullock with an Earhart/archeology based plot . Is this a work in progress, or something that never made it to the local cineplex? Tom Byers (Springfield, MO) **************************************************************************** From Ric That's a new one on me. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:55:52 EST From: Bob Sherman Subject: Sun line Ric wrote: << ... But remember that the 157/337 sunline only became significant once the actual date of the Lae/Howland flight became known. It might be interesting to see what the sunline would have been for the anticipated date of the Lae/Howland flight. >> If you mean a matter of a week or less, had they not been delayed a couple days here and there, and at Lae, sun rise would have been two minutes of time earlier, and about 25 minutes of azimuth less. Since 157d was a rounding of something between 156-31 anf 157-29, the difference of less than half a degree could have meant 156, no change, or 158. Ergo 10 days would be insignificant. RC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:56:45 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: WWII answers Thanks to everybody for the information and sources, which I'll follow up. The multiple-landing idea might account for Holland still being on the island in early '42, but seems hard to imagine; why in the world would it have taken the Japanese so long to occupy the place, which was effectively undefended? And Holland's rather leisurely report on the alleged cannibalism seems rather out of character for somebody whose base of operations was being taken over by the enemy. More work to be done, obviously; thanks to all for giving me some directions to pursue. LTM Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:06:39 EST From: Mike Holt Subject: Where's the Movie? > From Tom Byers > > An internet search on "Nikumaroro Island" brought up a movie starring Sandra > Bullock with an Earhart/archeology based plot . Is this a work in progress, or > something that never made it to the local cineplex? What else do you know about the movie, Tom? What search engine do you use? Alltheweb.com had no hits on the name. I'll have to find a second choice, I guess. Mike **************************************************************************** From Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194: What's the URL for this Sandra Bullock movie? Or, what search engine did you find this on? Does the movie have a title (actual, or working) yet? I checked the IMDB but could not locate it, searching under "Sandra Bullock," and didn't find anything on MSN or Lycos when searching under "Nikumaroro Island." My Screenwriter alter-ego is very intrigued by all this.... LTM (a big Sandra Bullock fan) and 73 Mike E. **************************************************************************** From Marty Moleski Seems to be a fantasy "production." http://members.nbci.com/Sandlapper/Nik/Nikumaroro.htm Marty *************************************************************************** From John Pratt Could that be: http://www.atomicmule.com/news/news3e.html Daily Planet, Sept17, 2000: from Margo Channing's CHIT & CHAT column in Canadian Variety, 9/20/00 Celine Dion, touted as the world's favorite vocalist of the twentieth century, is temporarily leaving the world of song to go before the cameras to play Amelia Earhart in an upcoming film biography to be directed by first time director Sandra Bullock. "I've always wanted to play Amelia," said Celine. "She is the most famous Canadian woman I can think of. There are big plans for this movie and I'm glad to be a part of it. She will have a new plane, a romantic entanglement with a amous world leader and a stunning and daring wardrobe. She will also have a charming monkey sidekick who's thoughts will be audible to the audience!" Songs are being written for the film by the writing duo of Burt Bacharach and James Hetfield of Metallica. It is expected to have a theatrical release before the end of the year to qualify for Academy consideration. Insiders who have seen Celine's rushes feel that she has a lock on a nomination if not the golden statuette itself. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX LTM(!) The writer is not specified. Nominations? On a serious note, TIGHAR success in convincing the public may be measured by how many common returns there are for the search strings "Nikumaroro Island" and "Amelia Earhart". John Pratt 2373 **************************************************************************** From Tom Byers This is what I was referring too.... http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/sandlapper/Nik/Nikumaroro.htm BTW, what if the next expedition does make a definitive discovery of human remains, clearly identifiable aircraft parts etc.? Is there a contingency plan to protect them from exploitation? Tom Byers (Springfield, MO) **************************************************************************** From Ric That will be discussed with Kiribati authorities during our upcoming trip to Tarawa in March. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:08:41 EST From: Mike Holt Subject: Re: Grace McGuire plans to retrace AEs route > From Ric > > Knowing Grace, she probably plans to run out of fuel and crash at sea. Well, point out to her that if she wants to be supportive of TIGHAR, she'll crash on the beach at Niku. Authenticity is important in recreations of historical events. I grew up in the American South, and know about such things from personal experience. Perhaps we should just wait for the flight, and see if the Japanese MSDF in the area. LTM (who never quite trusted airplanes) Mike Holt **************************************************************************** From Ric I can assure you that being supportive of TIGHAR is not high on Grace's agenda. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:21:27 EST From: John Pratt Subject: Satellite Photos I don't know if it has been posted before, but there's a NASA page of Earhart search information: http://develop.larc.nasa.gov/remotesensing/imagery/satellite2.htm LTM John Pratt 2373 **************************************************************************** From Ric I hadn't seen that before. The author, Mike Ruiz, was an active forum participant and TIGHAR member about a year ago. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:52:59 EST From: Bill Leary Subject: Recreations > Authenticity is important in recreations of historical events. You just reminded me of something. I was talking about radio signals and trying to emulate the performance of the Titanic's radio. I mentioned the effects of solar activity, and the guy I was talking to told me that, even if you account for that, it's impossible to recreated accurately anything in the electro magnetic spectrum that occurred pre-1945 because the atom bombs modified the atmosphere. He said that, in fact, as more devices were exploded the condition of the atmosphere became increasingly unpredictable. No, I'm not sure how this applies to radio or our particular interest here, but it does seem it would be a factor in any attempt to "try out" seeing how far a signal could be received. I also recall that there's a metals consortium working on raising the Operation Deadlight U-Boats to recover the metal because it's impossible to produce radiation free steel since the atom bombs because of the huge volumes of air needed in the production process. They want this pre-bomb metal for medical devices, I gather. - Bill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:10:29 EST From: Tom Byers Subject: Movie? I was searching for references to "Nikumaroro" with "Google.com" Tom Byers *************************************************************************** From Ross Devitt I see they found the "wreck photo" useful... Th' WOMBAT *************************************************************************** From John Pratt Does Niku III get royalties? Archaeologist Sarah Bright joins a twelve person expedition to seek out evidence of Amelia Earhart's Lockheed Electra that's believed to have crashed on the Pacific atoll Nikumaroro. The team reaches the island as a cyclone builds to the northwest, turning the expedition into a life and death struggle for survival. Would you license the TIGHAR name and make it more authentic? Well, some of us were slower than Marty, who said: ..................................................................... >From Marty Moleski Seems to be a fantasy "production." ..................................................................... The Nikumaroro "movie" web page at the bottom indicated that it is part of the Virtual Producer Ring. Links were provided to Hollywood Stock Exchange (HSX), an industry "game" like a virtual stock market or fantasy football. It's explained at URL http://www.hsx.com/about/index.htm "HSX is just like Wall Street. Only difference: Instead of investing real dollars in companies, you invest in free Hollywood Dollars(H$) in movies, stars, and musical artists. But the goal is the same - buy low, sell high." Since October 2000, HSX includes the opportunity to be a "Virtual Producer" at the URL http://vp.hsx.com/index.htm XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Incidentally, The part about the Celine Dion movie was also too "good" to be true; the return click goes to a satire page, the "Fudge Report" at http://www.atomicmule.com/news/index.html LTM(!) John Pratt 2373 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:13:54 EST From: Barb Norris Subject: Re: Where's the Movie? This is the funniest thing I've read on the forum in a long time. Celine as Amelia? John makes a valid point about the website links that refer people to TIGHAR. Keep up the good work fellas! LTM (who says don't believe everything you read), Barb Norris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:14:50 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Recreations There is certainly radioactive thorium in the coal that you use to smelt steel. This sounds like urban legend to me. Dan Postellon MD Tighar#2263 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:47:49 EST From: Ron Bright Subject: Pre and Post Loss AE Transmissions According to Goerner, CDR Bridwell told him on Saipan that he should look for some answers from the navy ships in the area at the time that may have picked up AE/and or Japanese radio traffic 2 July 37. The ships were the Goldstar, Blackhawk, Henderson,and Chaumont. Goerner apparently didn't follow through. I know I read a book or an author/researcher or maybe a Tigar source that after a review of the ships logs, none were in the vicinity of Howland, Marshalls or Gilberts and couldn't have made any intercepts. One was in Norfolk, one enroute from Guam to Japan, etc. Of course those intercepts from the Japanese would have been in naval code, but AE's transmissions,if any, would have been from KHAQQ. Do you or anyone on the forum recall the source of that research? LTM, Ron Bright **************************************************************************** From Ric That's all news to me. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:49:17 EST From: Walt Holm Subject: GMT vs. GCT trivia I was reading over the excerpts from the Earhart Forum in December, when I had been on the road. In the December 14-15 digest, some comments about time zones were made and you wrote the following: > Greenwich Civil Time (GCT) is simply what Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) was > called in 1937 and is what the military and others (such as the aviation > industry) call Zulu time today. All same same. That's where Safford got > screwed up. He somehow got it into his head that GCT was something > different. We beat this horse to death on the Forum a long time ago. This rang a bell in my head, so I did a little bit of checking. It turns out that GMT and "civil time" -were- different, right up until 1925. The use of Greenwich as the prime meridian had been standardized in 1884, as well as the notion that civil time would have days beginning at midnight. GMT, however, was the time kept by astronomers, and for them it was more convenient to make the days change at noon. It was not until 1925 that they abandoned this convention for GMT, although it still exists in some of their other timekeeping systems. GMT has since been superceded by universal coordinated time (UTC or Zulu time for pilots). If Safford had been reading through old (pre-1925) reference texts, one can understand how he got himself confused on this issue. Source is "Marking Time" by Duncan Steel, pp 22-24, ISBN 0-471-29827-1 -Walt Holm, TIGHAR # something or other ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:04:36 EST From: Bill Subject: Re: Recreations > From Dan Postellon > > There is certainly radioactive thorium in the coal that you use to smelt > steel. This sounds like urban legend to me. I wasn't sure about the radio issue, but the metals issue I'm pretty sure about. From the U-Boat net site at http://www.uboat.net/fates/deadlight_news.htm "While this may sounds strange at first (surely did to me) but one of the reasons, I am told, may be that pre-atom age metals (like WWII U-boats) are extremely valuable today for various researches. Many warships have been partly raised to extract these metals from them and now it appears that these 119 U-boats are destined to visit the scrap ports." - Bill ************************************************************************* From Ric If pre-atomic age metals are so valuable I wonder why there is no huge market for girders from old buildings and chassis of '32 Fords? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:15:00 EST From: Dan Brown Subject: Luke Field crash photos on ebay Forum members might want to take a look at the Luke Field crash photos that are currently for sale on ebay. Dan Brown "Non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem" **************************************************************************** From Ric Ahh, another disciple of William of Ockham. "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" which does not mean "The simplest solution is probably correct." but rather "Check the easy stuff first." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:54:45 EST From: Herman de Wulf Subject: Pre-atomic-age metals Pre-atomic age metals ? My God ! My history books tell me that some 4,000 ships, boats, launches, landings caraft etc. have been sunk in WW II. What a market !!! Herman *************************************************************************** From PK If I understand the concept the metal you refer to was exposed to the atmosphere when testing took place. Sunken vessels would be protected to a certain extent. PK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:38:23 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Pre-atomic-age metals I found a reference! Early whole-body-counters (a device for measuring radioactivity) used old battleship steel as a means to shield out background radiation:. Look under radium dial painter research, if you are interested. This does not mean that post-atomic age steels are or were radioactive. I don't think that there would be much of a market for these anyway. Daniel Postellon Tighar#2263 LTM (who glowed in the dark) *************************************************************************** From Simon Ric asked: >If pre-atomic age metals are so valuable I wonder why there is no huge >market for girders from old buildings and chassis of '32 Fords? Simple - they've been exposed. Water shields the sunked U-Boats, ships etc. **************************************************************************** From Bill Leary I was wondering about old cars, buses, planes, ships and so forth myself. I hadn't thought of structural steel. I wonder if it's just certain metals. Torpedo tubes, maybe. Something submarine specific. Still, I agree, that it sounds rather curious. - Bill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:40:19 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Pre and Post Loss AE Transmissions Ron Bright wrote: <> I have bridge log extracts and weather reports from all of those ships, and none were anywhere close to the Gilberts/Marshalls. This is very old information: Goerner was provided a red herring. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:43:44 EST From: Bob Sherman Subject: GMT vs. GCT trivia One other item about Time that will explain why the Itasca was 11:30 fast on Greenwich ... the 'half-hour' that is .. Carried over from GCT to GMT, was the 25 time zones ..[23- hourly and 2- half-hour zones]. The latter two, 7.5 degrees on either side of the 180 meridian Intl. Date Line, to place it in the center of a 15 degree zone. Thus the Itasca was using local time, not because of Howland Is. but for the time Zone it was operating in. RC 941 **************************************************************************** From Ric As a matter of fact, the guys on Howland were using Hawaii time which, in those days, was using 10.5 hours. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:50:49 EST From: Mike Holt Subject: Re: Pre and Post Loss AE Transmissions > From Randy Jacobson > > I have bridge log extracts and weather reports from all of those ships, and > none were anywhere close to the Gilberts/Marshalls. This is very old > information: Goerner was provided a red herring. This brings up a question I've had from time to time. Why did Goerner make that error, which seems so simple to check and correct? I've noted that a lot AE/FN information is confused at best, and every now and then someone seems to be intentionally deceptive. Is this protection of turf? I used to see that sort of thing in the UFO world, and I'd also tales made up to put someone else off an interesting scent. LTM (who identifies all her flying objects before calling ITASCA.) Mike Holt **************************************************************************** From Ric I can't explain the motivations of others but from what I've seen, the big problem in Earhart research has been that the people doing it had no training in historical research. Goerner was a journalist. Many of the others were retired military people or airline pilots. Fine, respected professions all, but not necessarily qualification for historical investigation. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:53:11 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Ships that weren't there >From Ron Bright > >According to Goerner, CDR Bridwell told him on Saipan that he should >look for some answers from the navy ships in the area at the time that >may have picked up AE/and or Japanese radio traffic 2 July 37. The ships >were the Goldstar, Blackhawk, Henderson,and Chaumont. Goerner apparently >didn't follow through... According to articles written by Navy veterans, (who served on Guam & were assigned to the Navy's advanced radio listening post...Station Baker) for a special issue of the CRYPTOLOG (published by the US Naval Cryptological Veterans Assoc.) featuring operations on Guam from the 1920s thru the post war era, several of the ships mentioned were connected with services rendered to the island. The HENDERSON & CHAUMONT were Navy transports berthed in San Francisco that made two trips a year to Hawaii & the Orient (including Guam) bringing supplies & replacement personnel to Guam. The GOLDSTAR was a collier (on station at Guam) that made periodic trips to Japan & back (prewar of course) to provide coal & provisions a well as transportation for Navy personnel & their wives, stationed on the island, for R & R in Yokohama. The only other ship mentioned by these writers was the stationship PENGUIN, used exclusively for harbor duties, they make no mention of the BLACKHAWK as having any connection with Guam, nor do they report any specific scheduling of voyages for the other vessels. (Unfortuately, none of these writers was serving on Guam at the time of the AE/FN flight.) According to Daryll Bollinger, Capt Laurence Safford, in his writings, claimed that the GOLDSTAR was equipped with advance Radio & DF equipment for surveillance of the IJN 1933 fleet exercises, however none of the CRYPTOLOG writers mention any radio intercept activity assigned to the GOLDSTAR, which spent most of it's port time at Guam. In addition to the prewar, covert radio intercept activities performed by Navy personnel on Guam, some of those involved also operated an adhoc (unauthorized) 'ham' radio station that served as a conduit for 'personal' communication with Hawaii & San Francisco. Unfortunately, from their articles, it appears that this 'ham' station may not have been in operation in 1937, because it's chief operator was shipped out earlier & he didn't know whether operations continued after he left the island. Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:57:21 EST From: TL Simpson Subject: Devine Thomas Devine suposeably witnessed NR16020 3 times in one day.Is it posible what he seen was the one that Lockeed sold the Japs in 1935 cn 1017 ?.......any thougts....... LTM TL Simpson **************************************************************************** From Ric I'm really not much interested in what Devine says he saw unless somebody can come up with some shred of evidence that any of the events he described actually happened. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:59:19 EST From: Pete Subject: Re: Pre-atomic-age metals As I understand it, most salvage companies want to reclaim the hardened steel used in armor plate, and the reduction gears. Maybe the U-boats are chosen because their reduction gears are smaller, and the Scottish Loch is much shallower than say "Iron Bottom Sound"? Pete **************************************************************************** From Ric Thus endeth this interesting but terminally off-topic thread. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:05:23 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: GMT vs. GCT trivia Now for the great GMT trivia question of the week: Where in the US is the half-hour time zone still being used today? Answer at 11. **************************************************************************** From Ric Gee. Newfoundland is a half-hour time zone but if they're in the US, you tell them - I wouldn't dare. Some county in Indiana? Those people will do anything. Or are you talking about some far-flung island domain that is US territory? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:09:51 EST From: Jerry Ellis Subject: The final Pre-atomic-age metals posting I gather from rereading all the postings on this that I have, the idea is that due to the atom bomb explosions the atmosphere has now become more radioactive than before ~1945. As a result, current iron products are now more radioactive than before and cannot be used for medical purposes. Also, exposure of a chuck of iron to the current atmosphere would cause it to become radioactive. First I must tell you that I have not done any recent literature searches on this topic and I don't claim to be an expert in this area. However in all my experiences as a chemist I don't ever recall reading or hearing of anything to support any of these ideas. As I recall, most of the radioactivity in the atmosphere is due to carbon-14 which is being continuously produced by cosmic ray neutron bombardment of nitrogen-14. Radiocarbon dating is based upon the carbon-14 carbon dioxide in the air being incorporated into living plants. For example, do you really think that the environmental watch dogs would allow radioactive steel to be sold to the public in as many applications as exist? Maybe this will help muddy the waters some more! Jerry Ellis #2113 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:21:17 EST From: Mike Muenich Subject: metal fragments I know TIGHAR has taken the position that no other aircraft have been located which could have "crashed" on Niku other than AE's 10E and while they havn't been able to match various metal skin fragments with a specific location on the aircraft, it is of the opinion that the fragments could be from the 10E. I am also aware of other metal items, control cable, inlays on boxes, fishooks etc. have been located or referred to as further possibilites of AE's presence. I think TIGHAR has previously stated that it couldn't find any other "missing" aircraft in the area that could account for the parts/fragments. I started reading John B. Lundstrom's most recent book, "The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign", Naval Institute Press, 1994 and found the following reference on page 27. "TF-16 crossed the equator at midday on 19 July, (1942) but the line-hardened Enterprise dispensed with ceremony. Late the next afternoon 10 miles west of the ships, Ens. James C. Dexter of VB-6, (VB-6 was flying SBD-3's at the time) a Midway veteran, towed a gunnery sock for eighteen F4Fs and six other SBDs. Somehow he became disoriented and flew away from the ships. Kinkaid broke radio silence to try to make contact, but even if Dexter copied the messages, he did not use his radio. He evidently tried for the nearest land, the Phoenix Islands, but he and his radioman were never found. " Unfortunately, Lundstrom does not provide a primary source for the incident nor is it footnoted. This is the second reference I have read in the last month about carrier operations in the vicinity of the Phoenix Islands, unfortunately I can't located where I read the first. I am aware the Lundstrom's passage does not put Dexter on Niku, but given Lundstrom's usually carefull research and detail, I presume Dexter was close enough to reach one of the Islands, if not Niku (the Enterprise deck log would show lat./lon and a quick check of a SBD-3's characteristics would show if Niku was in the potential range). There appears to be a fairly large amount of Task Force, including carrier, movement within the Solomons-Tarawa-Fiji-Samoa area during 1942 and early 1943. I am not casting aspersion upon TIGHARS position about other aircraft, but I am curious about the nature and extent of the research done to exclude other aircraft from the Niku hypothosis. **************************************************************************** From Ric We should probably check the logs of the Enterprise as you suggest, but remember that Nikumaroro was inhabited as a British colony from late 1938 until 1963. We have quarterly progress reports and other official records of the island's history up through 1949. There was an active U.S. Coast Guard unit there from July 1944 until May 1946. Nowhere is there mention of an aircraft crashing on the island. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:22:29 EST From: Tim Smith Subject: Niku 2001 Calendar Got my shiny new Niku 2001 calendar today. It is great! On a cold, wet, dreary day like this, it is nice to see the tropical sun. Remember, gang, when you are watching the Super Bowl that on Jan. 28, 1941, the "RCS Nimanoa departs Nikumaroro with [the] bones" (as we all know, of AE). I am going to enjoy this calendar next to my desk all year. It is highly recommended. I urge all TIGHAR members and AE Forumites to get a copy or two. Don't forget, the $ goes to a good cause, Niku IIII. Tim Smith 1142 CE PS; Ric did not pay me a cent for this product endorsement. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:23:45 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: GMT vs. GCT trivia Some time back I suggested the possibility that Betty's radio messages possibly related to attempts to make radio contact with Lambrecht's planes, which, as you explained, due to the time-zone question, seems to be unlikely. It raised the question in my mind, though, about how time is maintained on shipboard. I was able to find out that the time on shipboard is in fact changed to local time as the ship passes from time zone to time zone. However, this does not occur as the ship actually enters the new time zone. In practice, the changes are logged in the same manner as what we experience when we go into and out of daylight savings time - the time zone changes are made early in the morning of the day the ship will be entering the new zone. These time zone changes should be reflected in the ship's deck log. ltm jon 2266 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:27:44 EST From: T L Simpson Subject: FUEL In Fred Goerner's book ,Paul Mantz said AE had a range well over 4000 miles.Lea to Howland is aprox 2556 .With a 1500 mile range left she could have flown to Niku back up to Howland.Is the 4000 range correct Mantz supposably said to FG,thats a lot of fuel to find land,appricate help from the Forum LTM, TL Simpson **************************************************************************** From Ric Being new to forum you're not aware of the extensive discussions we've had on this subject. You might check the Forum Highlights on the TIGHAR website to get up to speed. Bottom line: At the time Itasca stopped hearing transmissions, Earhart should have had more than adequate fuel to reach Gardner Island. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:31:05 EST From: TL Simpson Subject: Goerner I would like to get the thoughts of Fred Goerner's book from other members on the forum,thanks......TL Simpson........ PS no relation to OJ **************************************************************************** From Ric Anyone who would like to discuss Goerner's book with Mr. Simpson can reach him privately. Goerner's speculations are mostly off-topic for this forum. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:56:05 EST From: Mike Muenich Subject: metal fragments As a follow up to my post of 01/18/01 I have been reviewing other volumns of my WW II library and found the following in Thomas B. Buell biography of Admiral King Master of Sea Power, Naval Institute Press, 1980 at page 174 "King meanwhile ordered Rear Admiral Frank Jack Fletcher in Yorktown to patrol near the Phoenix Islands as a central reserve." To place the quote in context, previous paragraphs are referring to events in late February, 1942, beginning with the February 15th fall of Singapore. There is nothing to indicate any aircraft losses and no further details, but without examining logs of each of the various carriers or some central "loss" records, how do we account for the possibility of missing Task Force aircraft through at least the early part of the war. *************************************************************************** From Ric Lots of airplanes went missing at sea during the war. Not a small number disappeared in the Central Pacific within theoretical range of Gardner Island. The question, of course, is whether any of them reached the island and landed/crashed there. Gardner is a small enough place so that I think anyone would agree that it would be very unlikely that an airplane could arrive there unbeknownst to the inhabitants. These inhabitants were not a stone-age tribe of cannibals. They were a colonial outpost of British subjects with regular, if sometimes sporadic, contact with the civil and military authorities in the region. We know of one instance of an aircraft crashing on one of the Phoenix Islands during the war (the C-47 crash at Sydney Island). Finding the official accident report took literally years and then was accomplished more or less by accident, but the folklore describing the wreck was there from the start. The same was true of the bones/shoes incident. Finding the documentation was really tough but the folklore was always there. Based upon those examples, it's hard to think that a wartime crash could have occurred at Gardner and we wouldn't have heard about it at least anecdotally. The closest was a reference made by Pulekai Songilvalu when I interviewed him on Funafuti in 1997. The transcript can be found at http://www.tighar.org/TTracks/13_1/2.html Here's an excerpt: RG: Have you heard of an airplane crash on Manra or Sydney Island? PS: No, but I saw pieces of an airplane on the lagoon side [looking toward the 1943 map of Nikumaroro]. RG: Where was it? Can you show me on the map? PS: [Silent, studying the map intently] Here, it was somewhere along here [pointing to the shoreline of the lagoon directly across from Taziman Passage in the cove spanning the boundary between Nutiran and Taraia]. It appeared to be an old crash. RG: Did you talk to anyone about it? PS: No, not really, I thought it was from the war, I did not think to ask anyway. RG: Did you use it to make anything? PS: Yes, they would use the metal to make plates and other things. RG: Was the airplane near the lagoon? PS: Yes. I think maybe it was a plane from Canton, I am not sure. I am trying to think of why it was there. I think the plane ran out of oil, or gas, maybe. They said the pilot was saved though. The people looked after him. I asked, "Where was the pilot taken?" They said he was taken by the Americans on a ship. [Ed. note: there is no known record or rumor of an airplane crashing on Nikumaroro during World War II.] RG: Did you ever visit Manra or Sydney Island? PS: Yes, I went there to examine the school on a tour once Mr. Songivalu's rather confused explanation of the origin of the debris he saw sounds very much like the crash that occurred at Sydney. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:01:17 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: GMT vs. GCT trivia Ric wrote: <> You're getting closer...definitely part of the US, and one of the 50 states. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:02:50 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: GMT vs. GCT trivia Jon Watson wrote: ..<> Indeed they are. Most ship time zone changes occur at midnight or 30 minutes before, at a change of a watch stand. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:05:11 EST From: Mike Muenich Subject: metal fragments Oops, I misunderstood the method by which you performed the exclusion. I assumed, and you know what that makes me, that TIGHAR had performed some sort of examination of records to exclude other aircraft. Seeing the forest, but not the trees, I forgot about the British colony and Coast Guard Station on the island that would have reported any such incident. Sorry **************************************************************************** From Ric Actually, we have spent a lot of time compiling lists of known wrecks and disappearances in the area just to get an idea of what kinds of parts might be "floating around." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:00:47 EST From: David Evans Katz Subject: Re: GMT vs. GCT trivia Is it part of Idaho? I know that Idaho is split into two time zones. David Evans Katz **************************************************************************** AND THE ANSWER IS.... (the envelope please) From Randy Jacobson The Arizona Memorial, Pearl Harbor, maintains the time zone of +10.5, which was in effect when the USS Arizona was sunk. **************************************************************************** From Ric Way cool. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:26:08 EST From: Terry Simpson Subject: Re: Devine Mr.Gillespie,Iam sorry if I've wasted your time and the forums with my dumb ?. I only thought I could help,I may be new to the forum but I sure has hell not new to AE and FN.I have read and study all I could for the last ten years,my personal thoughts of FG's book is it makes a good novel,so was T.C.Brennan's book.My thoughts of ( TIGHAR) is some one is finally doing it the right way,thats wy I joined.I am a member of the AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics)#451578 .I've been out here trying to recute new members for TIGHAR this is my way of helping,its called TEAM effort.I have a lot respect for you and TIGHAR,you people ,as far as Iam concered put your lives on the line out there,in bad sea's ,jungles,desease's,ect.Very very dangerous indeed,Iam just a wa na be,i've litte resources to give ,other then recruting new members in the two clubs I belong to.This is somthing I can do for TIGHAR to meet your 2001 goals.Iam sorry if i upset you with my dumb ?'s,by the way when can aspect my membership card, with all do respect.....Terry L. PS **************************************************************************** From Ric Terry, I apologize if my response to your questions seemed rude. That was certainly not my intent. As we try to explain in the message everyone receives upon signing up for the Forum: <> We try to stick to those guidelines but we don't always succeed. I appreciate your interest and your support and will look forward to your questions. You should receive your membership card next week. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:31:46 EST From: Malcolm Andrews Subject: Journalism I am glad you mentioned journalism is a fine and respected profession. I would have been miffed had you not done so. Cheers Malcolm Andrews **************************************************************************** From Ric If I ever tire of this line of work I can always become a tightrope walker in the circus. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:23:55 EST From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Terry Simpson's Letter Hang in there Terry, the Forum isn't always a kinder and gentler place to visit. Ric outlined the scope very well in his response to you but, if you don't mind, I would like to add my two cents as a part time contributor to the Forum. As new members of the Forum we do have a responsibility to bring ourselves up to speed. Read the material on the Web Site and read the Forum for a little while before jumping into the middle of what has been going on for quite a long time. Many issues have been covered and recovered, some put to death and some just put out for a little rest. As Ric said, in so many words, the purpose is to inform and to advance the research. There are those out there that would like to use the Forum to destroy TIGHAR's credibility simply because they have an agenda of their own. There are those that don't have a clue but just know they have all the answers. Ric walks a very narrow line keeping the Forum and TIGHAR moving in the right direction. We need you and you need us. Stay with TIGHAR and you will learn far more than you could have believed you could ever learn not just about Amelia and Fred but about a thousand other things. The people that contribute to the Forum are among the brightest I have ever known. I personally feel deeply privileged to be allowed to be part of this group of professionals. Love to all (not just Mother), Dick Pingrey 908C ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:08:22 EST From: Janet Whitney Subject: Speaking of the Eighth Edition... When will a comprehensive chronology of Earhart's pre-disappearance communications with Lae and the Itasca be posted to the Eighth Edition? Is this something that's "in the works?" Janet Whitney *************************************************************************** From Ric Very much so. It'll probably be up with a week or so. I'll alert the forum. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:13:05 EST From: Michael S. Hyman Subject: The book I read somewhere that Dr. King and Dr. Burns and others from the forum are releasing a book this spring. Any chance I could purchase a copy thru TIGHAR? I'd like to see TIGHAR benefit from this project some how Thanks, Michael **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks. When the book is released - which is looking more like summer rather than spring - it will be available via the TIGHAR website (and lots of other places). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:17:17 EST From: Terry Simpson Subject: Two cents You have under estimated yourself, your two cents is worth a million. Thank you for your kind response....Terry L. To Ric , Sir, you don't owe me an apology. I can't imagine the stress your under,trying to this boat in wind, as I get up to speed, I wish you Gods speed. ...Terry L. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:18:38 EST From: Terry Simpson Subject: Anzio To my Forum Friends,don't mean to get off topic,but todays date Jan 22nd 1944 (the year I was born) Americans landed at Anzio,a little seaport on the west coast off Italy.After heavy fighting and casualties the troops established a beach head,Iam not positive but I think Audey Murphy was there,Don't be mad Ric ,it is historic.Older Solders and folks probably don't need to be reminded of this,but Iam sure theres a lot people out there that don't know.Sorry to take advantage of the forum Ric,I just don't ever want to forget all the young men and women who gave it all so I can have freedom,model airplanes,internet,and (TIGHAR).To all WW II Vets,THANK YOU.Maybe the forum is like a model airplane work bench,you got to stop and clean it up once in a while,so you can get back on track and build a better model,Ben Franklin once said a change is better than a rest.Ric,your prayers have been answered.I got to go away for a week so I won't be on the forum,as Dick Pingrey last week said,love to all(not just mom) Terry L. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:46:24 EST From: John Pratt Subject: SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) Following up on the satellite photo idea and the NASA web-report of the summer study that included investigation of Nikumaroro, let me raise a question of the expertise available on the fourm. The NASA site, http://develop.larc.nasa.gov/remotesensing/imagery/satellite2.htm indicated that there was no SAR imagery of the island and that was the ideal product to have: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX "Active radar satellite images were needed to see objects under water. The only way to get active radar satellite images of Truk and Gardner would be to pay thousands of dollars to send commercial satellites to cover the area. The image in Appendix A-2 is a photo of Gardner Island also with varying amounts of cloud cover. On this image, however, there is a break in the clouds and Gardner can be seen clearly. By finding an active radar image researchers would have been able to see if anything could be identified along the shoreline or in a lagoon at the southeast end of the island." (http://develop.larc.nasa.gov/remotesensing/imagery/satellite2.htm) XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX There is another NASA program, AIRSAR. This uses a DC-8 to obtain SAR images. It appears to be primarily used for resources surveys, sometimes archeology. It is at least partly user-funded. AIRSAR is on the web at: http://airsar.jpl.nasa.gov/ and they just finished the 2000 Pacific Rim survay. They obtained no images of Nikumaroro. As to the future, well, the possibilities need discussion. First, XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX "AIRSAR flights are performed in response to flight requests submitted by the Principal Investigators (PIs) of NASA-sponsored scientific investigations and by sponsors from other organizations who contract to acquire AIRSAR data on a reimbursable basis." http://airsar.jpl.nasa.gov/ XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Therefore do we have anyone with the experience and credentials to compete for NASA sponsorship? If so, we also have the means to first ask if SAR can help find the aircraft debris. Second, if such a person is available, would AIRSAR actually solve the problem? The General Reference Manual is quite complex, and the usual acquisition mode (straight line at 26,000 feet) may not be optimal for this application. However, the usual operation generates these parameters: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX "I also want to make sure that you are aware of a few limitations in using imaging radar, specifically AIRSAR, to search for possible remains of the aircraft. The radar does not see through the water surface although it may pick up surface expression of bathymetry in very shallow water. Also the resolution of AIRSAR is about 3 meters - meaning it will not see things smaller than 3 meters and in the standard modes at which we operate, the resolution is more like 5-9 meters." (e-mail from the project senior scientist, Ellen O'Leary) XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Also, foliage reflects relatively well: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX "A useful rule-of-thumb in analyzing radar images is that the higher or brighter the backscatter on the image, the rougher the surface being imaged. Flat surfaces that reflect little or no microwave energy back towards the radar will always appear dark in radar images. Vegetation is usually moderately rough on the scale of most radar wavelengths and appears as grey or light grey in a radar image." (http://airsar.jpl.nasa.gov/) XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX So it doesn't sound like AIRSAR penetrates well through the vegetation or the sea water. However, it should be fairly easy to look up the "skin depth" of sea water and of sand for the frequencies used: L- band (lambda ~ 24 cm); C-band (lambda ~ 6 cm) ; and P-band (lambda ~ 68 cm) Perhaps at near-vertical viewing at low tide we could still get a return on metal objects. It also isn't clear how fast the coral grows on things left on the reef flat and what such a coral-layer does to radar return. Would that coral, or ALL the coral appear "rough" and reflect well? Finally, does the three-meter resolution mean that the aircraft would have to be nearly intact to show up? Or would the pixel-value area-average over the high return of the metal and the lower return of the rest of the surface? This would require a sensitivity analysis to estimate detection probability as a function of fragment size. (NASA would undoubtedly expect that from the PI, anyway.) The information to answer this probably includes: "What is the radar-albedo of the aircraft metal?" "What is the radar-albedo of the reef flat?" "What is the size-distribution of the aircraft debris?" "To what extent are the debris buried or covered and by what?" Even if the numbers look good we should look for some experimental validation, ideally conveniently near the JPL/Moffett base. One idea is a calibration run on aluminum samples hidden in the salt flats in the south end of San Francisco Bay. So would AIRSAR detect the aircraft debris? Naturally LTM applies to attractive technology. John Pratt 2373 **************************************************************************** From Ric Backing up a few steps: I think there is often a temptation to use technology "because we can" rather than because there is no other way to get the information. It doesn't sound to me like synthetic aperture radar is likley to tell us as much as we might learn from a black and white photo with 1 meter resolution. Our on-the-ground eyeball inspection of the suspect areas, both above and below the surface of the water and the land, will have far higher resolution than anything that can be done from the sky. The limitation of our eyeball search, of course, is that we can only cover the most highly suspect areas, so the principal value of aerial imagery is to try to confirm that there is something of interest in our suspect locations and also take a general look at other areas. The SpaceImaging photos in the visual spectrum may be able to confirm that there is material of some sort in the area where we think there should be material, or - if the lagoon bottom seems clearly visible and yet nothing of interest is apparent - we could save a lot of time with a quick on-site ground-truth confirmation and then move on to other areas. SpaceImaging will get us a black and white photo with 1 meter resolution and a color photo with 4 meter resolution, and guarantee no more than 20 percent cloud cover, for about $4,200. If the first try is successful, they can deliver the product within about 60 days of placing the order. That would give us imagery to use in plenty of time before the Niku IIII expedition in August/September. Sounds to me like something we should do. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:51:13 EST From: Mike Everette Subject: Restless Spirits This is sort of off topic, but has anyone seen a video movie titled "Restless Spirits," which has to do with the subjects of Project Midnight Ghost? (Nungesser and Coli) I was in the local Blockbuster Video yesterday, and rummaging through their "annual sale" offerings, and came across this one... seems a young girl vacationing with her grandparents in Maine is confronted by these guys' ghosts, out in the woods... she has to help them somehow escape the vicious circle of repeating their flight every time the fog comes in. I didn't buy the movie (yet)... just wonder if anyone has seen it. By the way, the store has not heard of the movie "Nikumaroro" which apparently went straight to video. Maybe it is not yet released. TIGHAR should get royalties. Let this be a warning to all of us. When we put information out on the internet, it is fair game for anyone. LTM (who wouldn't rip anyone off) and 73 Mike E. **************************************************************************** From Ric I've heard of, but haven't seen "Restless Spirits." What I've heard is that any similarity between the film and the 1927 disappearance of Nungesser and Coli is purely coincidental. There is no film "Nikumaroro." That website is for fantasy productions. Never happened. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:58:00 EST From: Marty Moleski Subject: Woman Attempts World Record ------------------ Ric: I won't die if you find this off-topic. ;o) "PIPER DAKOTA ATTEMPTS PACIFIC CIRCUMNAVIGATION: Hard as it is to believe, there are still aviation records left to attempt. Polly Vacher has become the latest, hoping to circumnavigate the earth solo in a Piper Dakota. What makes this trip record-setting is that the Dakota will be the smallest aircraft flown solo by a woman along this particular Pacific route. As our loyal readers know, AVweb generally has little glowing to say about such attempts, believing that the pioneers of aviation who sat in a beast with a dubious chance of continued RPMs, with only a compass and stopwatch to guide them, are the true and legitimate record-holders. That being said, Vacher is making this attempt for all the right reasons, and this time we won't be sassy" . **************************************************************************** From Ric You won't die. Ms. Vacher might. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:58:49 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: GMT vs. GCT trivia Thanks Randy. This raises the question, what would they do if there was a likelihood of moving into and out of a new time zone, say from criss-crossing a search area? Also, I wonder how individuals on shipboard deal with that? I presume everyone resets his (or her, now) watch every time. ltm, jon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:20:37 EST From: Pete Subject: Another approach? This was sent to me from a Navy history site, event is for 1 Sept 1943: 1--Two light carriers of Task Group 11.2 (Rear Admiral A. W. Radford) and Navy patrol bombers from Canton Island furnished day and night air cover for naval units landing occupation forces on Baker Island, east of the Gilberts. I wonder, would surviving vets of the "Navy patrol bombers from Canton Island" remember noticing a radial on the Niku reef during their patrols? I'll try to find out what squadron was based at Canton. Maybe these pilots used the NC wreck as a navigation point while searching for Japanese Naval Forces. Opinion re SAR: I've had some dealings with SAR and ISAR equipped P-3 Orions, so I think using either at Niku would give some great images of the coral and the outline of the beach. I have to agree with Ric that satellite imagery and the mighty Mark I Eyeball is better for locating and identifying objects. I return to researching and lurking now Pete (who is still under USC Title 18) **************************************************************************** From Ric Check your map. The PV-1 Venturas operating out of Canton on patrols up around Baker don't come anywhere near Gardner. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:23:14 EST From: Kerry Tiller Subject: Re: GMT vs. GCT trivia Jon Watson asked: >This raises the question, what would they do if there was a > likelihood of moving into and out of a new time zone, say from criss-crossing a > search area? Also, I wonder how individuals on shipboard deal with that? I > presume everyone resets his (or her, now) watch every time. Speaking from 13 years of sea duty with the U.S. navy, the use of local time is purely for the convenience of the crew, mainly for meal times and to be sure we were in sync with local times when pulling into port. Deck logs, CIC logs, navigation logs and I believe engineering logs are all kept in local time, radio logs are always in Zulu (GMT) time. If we were operating in an area that straddled a time zone, we didn't change until we moved on. At what hour we actually changed ship time to conform to a new zone was at the CO's discretion based on the ship's intended track. These time changes would be published ahead of time in the ship's Plan of the Day and would be scheduled for minimal impact, usually on the mid-watch at 2 or 3 in the morning (causing an inconvenience for the watch standers, of course). If the ship was engaged in some drill or exercise at that hour, the time change would be scheduled before or after the drill/exercise or operation. I have had some COs that preferred to do time changes in the evening so they could be announced over the 1MC (PA system). It was never an exact science and rarely coincided with the actual crossing of a meridian. And, yes, we screw it up sometimes. I remember having to wait an hour for tugs in some port (Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia on Borneo I think) because we had the local time zone wrong pulling in. LTM Kerry Tiller #2350 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:17:58 EST From: Tom Byers Subject: Space Shuttle Experiment It might make an interesting experiment to see if the shuttle astronauts could get some photos (infra-red, etc.) of Nikumaroro Island and then post then to this web site. NASA might be interested just for the PR value, a high school science class tie-in wouldn't hurt. Tom Byers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:22:32 EST From: Renaud Dudon Subject: Restless Spirits(off topic) I have been currently working on Nungesser and Coli with Charles Sivert for severals months now. All that i could say, is that it is a very difficult and frustrating research... Mike, your mention concerning that film interested me. If you intend to buy it, it would be great if you could send me a little summary of the story... If you're interested, we could discuss about this in private, here is my email: bdud@wanadoo.fr Anyway, there is a very good ( even if it is quite rare) film about N&C disappearance. It is called " L'Enigme de l'Oiseau Blanc"(The White Bird mystery) by Vincent Corteel-Gielly. Mr Meunier ( who wrote a very important report concerning N&C for the french ministry of transportation ) recommanded me it. I will try to get a copy of it....The main interest of that film is that it gather most of the data( testimonies, "anecdotal" statement,...) gathered by the french government since 1984. I am somewhat disappointed by some of my fellow-countrymen... They seemed to be afraid of what could be discovered...Others are despising me because i tried to "rummage" the past. I wish to thanks TIGHAR members for what they have done. The spirit of Charles Nungesser and Francois Coli should live through theirs efforts... That is the end of that off topic subject, thanks for your patience, Ric ;o) RENAUD DUDON Tighar#2366 **************************************************************************** From Ric An English translation of Meunier's excellent report is available through TIGHAR. **************************************************************************** From Dustymiss I have seen it. It's cute and fairly well written. There is little factual material about the flight in it. It is mostly the story of how a girl stumbles on the wreck and how she and her little brother (who hasn't spoken since their air force father crashed and was killed) fix up the plane and allow the restless sprirts of the two dead pilots trapped in time by the wreck to go free. The only way the spirits can go free is if they somehow complete the flight. Of course, with all good stories, there must be a villain. You'll never guess who the villain is. Or maybe you will. It is a couple of guys who belong to a TIGHAR-esque group that are determined to find the plane and bring it out of the swamp and put it on display (I cannot recall if they were going to restore it) But the problem is that if they do that, the spirits of the dead aviatorts will never be able to complete the flight - hence the conflict and the reason the two guys are the villain of the story. In order to enjoy the movie, you have to have (as we say in the theatre) a willing suspension of disbelief that there could be such spirits of the dead and they could be freed. The story is a good one for adolescent kids to watch, I think. Especially because the kids work to reassemble the plane. I enjoyed it too, but I can easily suspend my disbelief and "I do believe in spooks. I do. I do. I do." There is some nice flying footage right at the end. Not knowing what L'Oiseau Blanc looked like, I cannot tell you if the plane resembled it, nor if the pilots resembled Nungesser and Coli (I suspect they did not). What is clear is that the people who wrote it had a great love of and respect for flying. LTM- (who loves spooks because she is one.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:07:07 EST From: Renaud Dudon Subject: Re: Restless Spirits(off topic) I thank you Dustymiss for your interesting summary of that fiction. I am amazed how N&C disappeareance could raise up such an interest abroad while french themselves seem not interested... Other question: Ric, have you played in that film as a special guest star ? (g) Thanks again, Renaud Dudon **************************************************************************** From Ric Yes. Didn't you see me? I played the swamp where the plane crashed. **************************************************************************** From Russ Matthews #0509CEV* Dustymiss wrote: << Not knowing what L'Oiseau Blanc looked like, I cannot tell you if the plane resembled it, nor if the pilots resembled Nungesser and Coli (I suspect they did not)>> If this off-topic thread survives for another round, I can answer part of the question above having caught the very end of the film on cable TV. The takeoff sequence begins with decent, though somewhat worse-for-wear, facsimile of L'Oiseau Blanc (either a model or computer generated). As it nears flying speed the aircraft magically transforms into a gleaming white Stearman PT-17 with black heart painted on the side -- oh well, at least they used a biplane. LTM, Russ *V (Villain -- Project Midnight Ghost Expeditions XV, XVII, and XVIII) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:07:53 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Experiment There are 2 NASA/Space shuttle photos of Nikumaroro on the internet. NASA lists it as Gardner island in their search list. The typical shuttle photos don't have enough resolution to be of much use, other than for drawing an outline map of the island. You can see that it is an atoll, with vegetation, a reef, and beaches. You can not see the wrecked freighter, or anything smaller. I'd sure like to see a high resolution photo, either from space imaging or some fly-over . Dan Postellon TIGHAR#2263 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:11:19 EST From: Ron Bright Subject: Post Loss Radio Matrix Do you have a Robert Myers on your list of post-loss messages. He told a reporter for the News Tribune,Woodbridge ,N.J. in July 1982, he clearly heard Earhart the night of her disappearance when he was at Oakland, Ca. Note: Myers also said that he taped Irene Bolam and believed Bolam was Amelia. **************************************************************************** From Ric Nope. That's a new one. Any more details? Time of day? Frequency? Exactly what he heard? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:14:24 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Pacific crossings Speaking of Pacific Circumnavigations, my Brazilian friends Margi and Gerard Moss made the first traverse of the Pacific from Australia to South America, via Easter Island, in a single engine Embraer (Brazilian Piper Saratoga) sometime in Jan 1992. Their story was recounted in the book "Freedom of the Skies". Interesting reading. http://www.360graus.com.br/extremoss/english/index.htm amck **************************************************************************** From Ric No to be picky, but to circumnavigate something is to go around it. A flight circumnavigating the Pacific would be quite a trip. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:48:39 EST From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Post Loss Radio Matrix Myers claimed he heard AE's last transmissions etc while he was in Oakland, now he lives out East. I'll fax you what I have, a news clipping. But if you think its worth it, I can try to contact the News Tribune to track him down. Sounds like he is a real AE buff and was out interviewing Irene Bolam. Ron B. **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks for the fax Ron. Interesting. Myers claimed that, in a phone call to Bolam, he "described weather conditions and recited radio transmissions" he had heard from Earhart. He claimed that Bolam said, "There was a lot of fog around too." If she really said that, it should have been enough to convince him that she was not Amelia Earhart. Fog is about as common as snow in the Central Pacific. That newspaper article is almost 20 years old and, in the photo that accompanies the article, Myers looks to be in his 60s so it's touch and go whether he's still alive. Still, it would be interesting to have his full story. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:00:09 EST From: Ron Bright Subject: "Amelia Putnam" reference In Betty's notebook there is a reference to AE signal as "This is Amelia Putnam". I ran across an interesting entry about AE as described by George Putnam in his autobiography "Wide Margins", written in 1942. He is describing various Ameila traits and preferences and his marriage to her. He writes: "But she had a kind of flat conviction that she should continue as a matter of course to be called by her own name. If it had been hers by happenstance in the beginning, in the end she had done the things which gave it distinct personal significance. In this I sided with her...and cannot remember introducing her even once as Mrs. Putnam". Of course this doesn't prove AE wouldn't have transmited this is "Amelia Putnam" in an emergency, but all in all, it casts suspicion on that phraselogy. In my opinion she would use and repeat to use the name most familiar to the world and to George!! Just a bit of trivia that possibly relates to the notebook entry. Of other note, GP doesn't describe any of the search and World Flight events in this book except receiving some letters after her disapperance and that she was "lost near Howland Island". I didn't see any other insights into the mystery in this book. LTM, Ron Bright **************************************************************************** From Ric According to Betty's anecdotal elaboration on the notebook, she first heard, "This is Amelia Earhart." repeated several times, which prompted her to get out her notebook and started copying down what she heard. When she later heard, "This is Amelia Earhart Putnam" she wrote only "Amelia Putnam" to save time. What Betty actually wrote in her notebook is, "This is Amelia Putman." (not Putnam). As part of my inteview with Betty, I asked her to write down phrases I dictated out of the notebook. When I said, "This is Amelia Putnam." she wrote "This is Amelia Putman." It's also worth noting that, although she was otherwise able to copy down the words and phrases I read quite accurately, when I read off the strings of numbers from the notebook she did much worse. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:07:12 EST From: Mike Holt Subject: Re: Another approach? Ric wrote: >Check your map. The PV-1 Venturas operating out of Canton on patrols up > around Baker don't come anywhere near Gardner. Was there anyone patrolling the area? *************************************************************************** From Ric I've never seen a reference to patrols flown down around the lower Phoenix Group, nor have I seen reference to Japanese activity in that area at any time. Apparently, aircraft staging through Canton would occassionally take sight-seeing rides down over some of the islands. The C-47 crash on Sydney was the result of one such flight, but I've never seen a reference to even a joyride over Gardner. Coast Guard, and later Navy, PBY's out of Canton brought such staples as mail, beer and mayonaisse to the Loran station on Gardner in 1944/45. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:19:04 EST From: Marty Moleski Subject: Fred's Head Wound (Wild Surmise) I had an insight over Christmas vacation. Sorry I can't link it to preceding threads. But someone had asked why all of the post-loss stories presume or assert that Fred must have been addled in the landing. My theory is that if Fred was not out of commission due to an injury, he would have given Amelia far more specific information to broadcast about where they were. I suppose it's also a way to account for the fact that all of the post-loss transmissions star Amelia (they do, don't they?). No big deal if I'm wrong. The wreckage will still be where it is or isn't regardless of what we imagine happened to Fred's head. Marty #2359 *************************************************************************** From Ric Interesting insight. So far, of the reports of post-loss voice receptions that include mention of gender, most - but not all - report hearing a woman's voice. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:46:10 EST From: Pittsburgh Pete Subject: Re: "Amelia Putnam" reference Ric wrote: <> So what does this lead you to believe Ric? Peter **************************************************************************** From Ric It's not surprising to me that Betty had more trouble with strings of numbers than with words and phrases - I think most people would. It leads me to think that the accuracy of the strings of numbers in her notebook are less reliable than the words and phrases. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:26:01 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: circumnavigation <> Ahhhh yes, you are picky! That's why you have this job. Keep picking. amck ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:28:01 EST From: Mike Muenich Subject: Amelia Putnam I have read the recent postings about the use of the name Earhart vs. Putnam. I seem to recall several postings over the past year where the British, ever correct, used the name of Putnam rather than Earhart in various news releases and stories. If I am AE, I've read the stories about myself and, since I am in an area that is heavily populated/governed by Brits, I think to myself--some of the islanders/administrators won't recognize "Earhart" but might recall or recognize "Putnam". Since I am broadcasting in the blind, to be safe I use both, Earhart for the Americans back home and Putnam for the "territories". No matter who hears, someone might recognize. *************************************************************************** From Ric Mike is right. This was discussed at some length last fall. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:41:16 EST From: Pete Subject: Canton Squadrons and some losses So far I found this: Canton Island: VP-14, Patrol Squadron 23, VP-34, Task Group 8.9 (USAAF B-17's), 7th AF, 531st Fighter Bomber Squadron (B-24), 11th Bombardment Group (Heavy) Losses from www.vpnavy.com VP-25 16 Mar 40, PBY-2 Buno 0489, at Canton, strike VP-42 30 Jan 42, PBY-5A "Canton Islands - Suva, Fiji" Buno 2413 There's some entries regarding losses at "Kossil Passage", one at Howland, "at Sea off Nihau Island", "West of Copea Island, and a PBM-5 on a reef "1mi North of Carlson Island". Fleet Airwing 17 established 15 Sep 43, Brisbane. Squadrons: VP-33, 34 (later 73),52 With the base at Rabual, patrol flights may have been in the Niku area, either from Canton or Australia (I'm betting on Canton) to guard against Japanese Forces. So now there's some losses in the area, but doesn't that make the aluminum assembly found at Niku a possible part of a Catalina or Mariner flying boat? I'll keep looking for losses, like the B-17's and B-24's at Canton. Back to the search engines Pete **************************************************************************** From Ric Let's define what we mean by "the area." None of the islands you mention, except Howland and Canton, is within about 2,000 miles of Gardner. A PBY based at Rabaul could not fly to the Phoenix Group and return unrefueled. We've identified 22 losses that occurred within 400 nautical miles of Gardner. None are known to have happened at Gardner but it's clear that there was no shortage of scrap aluminum in the region. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:58:50 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Canton Squadrons and some losses Do we know how many of the 22 losses went down at sea, as opposed to crashing on an island/reef where the metal could be recovered? --Chris Kennedy **************************************************************************** From Ric Here's the list: 1. March 16, 1940 - USN PBY-2 BuNo 0487 of VP-25. Hit reef on takeoff from Canton. 2. January 1942 - USN PBY of VP-23. Lost near Canton during night takeoff. 3. October 1942 - USAAF B-17D enroute Hawaii to Canton missed Canton and ditched near the Ellice Group. (Rickenbacker on board). 4. November 13, 1942 - USAAF P-39D crashed on Canton. Pilot killed. 5. December 15, 1942 - USN PBM hit reef while taxiing at Canton. 6. February 12, 1943 - USN PBY-5 BuNo 8033 of VP-71 engine fire on takeoff at Canton. Crashed and sank. 7. March 27, 1943 - USN PBY-5A of VP-54 destroyed in Japanese bombing attack on Canton. 8. August 13, 1943 - USN PBY-5 beached at Canton after being shot up by Japanese Kawanishi H8K "Emily" flying boat. 9. September 18, 1943 - USAAF P-39Q spun into sea on takeoff at Canton. Pilot killed. 10. October 5, 1943 - USN PBY-5A BuNo 33967 forced landing at sea enroute to Canton. Sank while under tow to Canton. 11. October 20, 1943 - USN PB4Y-1 BuNo 32102 of VB-106 missing enroute Canton to Funafuti. Nine crew. 12. October 23, 1943 - IJN Kawanishi H8K "Emily" shot down by P-40s 70 miles south of Baker. (Two other Emilys had previously been shot down by F-6-Fs from the light carrier USS Princeton CV-22 in the vicinity of Howland and Baker). 13. December 17, 1943 - USAAF C-47A 43-30739 crashed at Sydney Island during sight-seeing flight. Nine fatalities. 14. December 30, 1943 - USN PBY-5A BuNo 33963 missing enroute Baker to Makin. 15. January 11, 1944 - USN PBJ (B-25) missing enroute Canton to Tutuilla, Samoa. 16. February 16, 1944 - USN PBY-5 sank off Canton. 17. June 10, 1944 - USN PBM-3D BuNo 48199 engine fire, forced landing, beached at Howland. Aircraft burned. 18. August 2, 1944 - USN PV-1 gear up landing after aborted takeoff at Canton. 19. September 5, 1944 - USN PBM-3D BuNo 45236 0f VP-200 engine failure, forced landing at sea (exact location unknown), flooded and sank in high seas. 20. October 22, 1944 - USN PBJ (B-25) destroyed in taxiing accident on Canton. 21. October 31, 1944 - USN PBJ (B-25) destroyed in taxiing accident on Canton. 22. April 26, 1962 - FAA Lockheed L-749A Constellation crashed during touch and go landing at Canton. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:07:43 EST From: Mike Holt Subject: Re: Canton Squadrons and some losses Any carriers ever in the area? How about cruisers with aircraft embarked? The Japanese might have sent a sub with its airplane to have a look at some point. Mike *************************************************************************** From Ric There was, of course, intense carrier activity up around the Gilberts associated with Operation Galvanic (the landings at Tarawa) in the late fall of 1943 but we know of no such operations anywhere near the Phoenix Group. No need. Little or no enemy activity in that area. Canton got bombed a couple times by very long-range missions from Tarawa and there was apparently some prowling around by long-range flying boats. There were some submarine scares at canton and even one at Gardner in 1944, but no evidence that any subs were actually there. Airplane-carrying submarines were very rare. Aside from events at Canton during the fall of 1943, the Phoenix group was really outside the active war zone. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:24:48 EST From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: "Amelia Putnam" reference >In Betty's notebook there is a reference to AE signal as "This is Amelia >Putnam". In an attempt to persuade someone that this was not a hoax, is it possible that AE would have added the Putnam as a safeguard since it is likely that most hoaxers would not have used her married name? LTM Dave Bush #2200 **************************************************************************** From Ric Interesting thought. It presupposes that Earhart recognized the possibility, or knew from monitored news stories, that there would be false messages. If you were AE in that situation, what you say to convince people that you were who you said you were? This gets into the "occult" information question. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:34:49 EST From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Fred's Head Wound (Wild Surmise) Weren't all the PRE-loss receptions that of a woman's voice also? Alan #2329 **************************************************************************** From Ric Yes. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:41:20 EST From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: Fred's Head Wound (Wild Surmise) Didn't some of the post transmission include an attempt perhaps at trying some code via keying the Mic.? I know there is no evidence that either knew code, but is more likely that Fred could have known code and if they really did try some code by keying the mic. he would have most likely been the source?. Regards. Warren Lambing *************************************************************************** From Ric I wouldn't make that assumption. Given a source to reference, anyone can construct a message in morse code and tap it out. It will be crude as heck, but it will be recognizable as morse code. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:48:57 EST From: Andrew Mckenna Subject: Re: Canton Squadrons and some losses Ric wrote: << We've identified 22 losses that occurred within 400 nautical miles of Gardner. None are known to have happened at Gardner but it's clear that there was no shortage of scrap aluminum in the region.>> Yes, but how many before 1940, or whatever date the earliest accounts of airplane wreckage on Niku date back to ? **************************************************************************** From Ric Emily's anecdote about old aircraft wreckage on the reef dates from sometime between her arrival on Gardner in early 1940 to her departure in November 1941. There are no known losses in the region, or the whole Central Pacific for that matter, prior to that time which could account for that wreckage - except one. The chances of an unknown aircraft loss in that region prior to that time is so remote as to approach nil. Bottom line: if Emily saw aircraft wreckage, it was NR16020. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:59:49 EST From: Janet Whitney Subject: Aircraft on Ocean Floor Near Howland & Baker & Gardner If one drew a circle with a 100 miles radius around Howland and another 100 mile circle around Baker, how many aircraft are known or believed to have been lost / shot down, etc., within those circles? Same for Gardner. Janet Whitney *************************************************************************** From Ric See the list of known losses posted today. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:06:25 EST From: Mike Holt Subject: Re: "Amelia Putnam" reference >If you were AE in that situation, what you say to convince people that you were > who you said you were? This gets into the "occult" information question. What have others said in the same situation? Come to think of it, how often have aircraft crashed and been intact enough to permit a message to be transmitted to world that might not believe the message was real? When one has crashed, does one consider that calls for help might be thought of as hoaxes? Mike Holt **************************************************************************** From Ric I know of one instance off the top of my head. The crew of the B-23 that crashed in Idaho in 1943 (the wreck site we surveyed last summer) sent out a distress call that was received, although they didn't know it had been received, before the battery gave out. They didn't worry about hoaxes, but I think the possibility is much greater in cases where the disappearant (to coin a word) is a celebrity. Can anyone think of other examples? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:45:14 EST From: Ed of PSL Subject: Re: "Amelia Putnam" reference No example but this got me to thinking. Rather than a "crash" on Niku, this is a really a landing or crash landing. I was wondering whether the reef besides yielding some evidence of the aircraft may provide evidence of the touchdown and tire path along the landing path. From above, or from an angle there may still be a difference especially if the reef was damaged along the landing route and/or where the wreckage was moved by wave action. Any thoughts? LTM Ed of PSL **************************************************************************** From Ric Hmmmm.....tires are not going to leave durable marks but scraping metal during a breakup might. If scraping metal leaves permanent scars on the reef flat we should see lots of such scars "downstream" of Norwich City. I haven't noticed anything like that. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:53:19 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Fred's Head Wound (Wild Surmise) Actually, I find there to be something really disturbing about the similarities noted in all the post loss messages that I don't think has been brought up before. That is, none of them, to my knowledge, gives any indication WHERE Earhart is, when she should have been easily able to give a rough distance and direction calculation from Howland even if Noonan were unable to give a longitude/latitude fix. Why are we all assuming that Earhart needed Noonan to be coherent in order to tell her where she was before she could report an approximate position to the world? This reminds me of the assumption we are all making that Noonan died first on Gardner. Here's my argument: First, no one disputes that Earhart knew she must have been close to Howland the morning of July 2nd (the "we must be on you but cannot see you" message). Using this as a starting point, I think it is a safe assumption that she would also have known her approximate speed. She also would have known roughly how long she was flying after that message, and the general direction (we are "running north/south on the line"....) Am I missing something, or can you simply multiply your hours in the air from the "we must be on you" message times your airspeed and direction, and then report something like "This is Earhart. Crash landed on reef about 450 miles south of Howland". While it's hardly exact, this is a simple calculation that she wouldn't have needed Noonan to calculate as a longitude/latitude. Also, if Earhart was in the situation we suspect (crashed, delirious navigator, rising water and very low power supplies to use for radio transmission) this message, or one like it, has real value--I'm trying to get rescued fast. The best way to do that is to use my limited resources to give rescuers the best message I can as to where I can be found. I wouldn't worry about hoaxes, reading off the names of wrecked ships near me, embarrassing the Roosevelts, etc. Indeed, I am beginning to wonder whether the "injured Noonan" similarities is a fiction created by hoaxers to conveniently remove him from the picture so as to account for the fact that Earhart doesn't include a position report in her messages? What hoaxers probably would not have known at the time is that the "we must be on you" message existed, that a time can be assigned to it, and that Earhart also gave the "running north/south on the line transmission". From these, she should have been able to give a rough distance/direction from Howland calculation, yet none of these transmissions (including Betty's) report this. This may be the most telling coincidence of all the post loss messages. --Chris Kennedy **************************************************************************** From Ric Actually, several of the alleged post loss messages contain apparent attempts to describe location. "281 north Howland" is just one example. There are several references to latitude and longitude, and other cases of estimated distances from Howland. We're not going to be able to draw any consclusion about this until we've looked at all the alleged post-loss messages as a body and made what determinations we can about which are more and whihc are less credible. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:29:08 EST From: Ric Subject: What's up 8th Edition owners will find a ton of new material authored by Randy Jacobson mounted online effective 01/22/01, including a moment-by-moment, message-by-message account of what happened in the Itasca radio room. We expect to begin sending out hard copy soon. In other news, the analytical laboratories at the Winterthur Museum here in Delaware are testing the shoe fragments recovered on Niku in 1991 to confirm their material makeup ( a case of dotting old "i"s and crossing old "t"s) while the forensic imaging lab at Photek in Oregon is doing a hi-tech measurement of the shoe-on-the-wing photo to address the questions about sole versus heel length raised recently by Rollin Reineck. Other work by Photek has determined that the "dash-dot" object visible in the 1937 Bevington photo is in the same location as a large section of Norwich City debris which appears in photos taken during the 1938/39 New Zealand survey. I'll write up a Research Bulletin showing how this was done but the net effect is that we do not (yet) have photographic corroboration of Emily's anecdote about aircraft wreckage on the reef. Expedition Team member Van Hunn and I are finalizing our plans for a research trip to Tarawa in early March, and Expedition Team member Skeet Gifford will soon be coordinating with Space Imaging on the acquisition of satellite imagery of our favorite atoll. Meanwhile, Tom King and his co-conspirators are wrapping up the last details of their book about TIGHAR's investigation-so-far and hope to have it to the publisher for production next week. Release is targeted for July. Preparations are also underway for this year's offering of the TIGHAR Introductory Course in Aviation Archaeology and Historic Preservation combined with a Training Expedition to a real live (or real dead) historic crash site. We hope to be able to announce the details and begin accepting registrants by February 15th. And the beat goes on....... LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:01:43 EST From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: "Amelia Putnam" reference Do I know about any hoaxes ? What about this one ? Two years ago the Belgian civil aviation agency issued a Notam (notice to airmen) warning that a pirate radio was occasionally operating in the Brussels FIR, giving erratic flight instructions to aircraft on the Approach frequency of Brussels airport and insisting that all instruction be read back. They had found out because pilots began reading back instructions that had not been given, like confirming they were ordered to orbit or to climb to some flight level... The scare lasted several months until the culprit was found. It turned out to be a 17 year old who had operated a hand held VHF receiver/transmitter his father had bought him to listen in on air traffic ! When he was bored in school he listened in on ATC and gave his own instructions to the pilots from the back of the classroom ! Actually, they never found him. But his father discovered what his son was doing. The poor man informed the authorities because he was scared his son might have caused havoc in the air ! (I don't know what happened to the boy but I do remember that his father was fined for possessing the radio and haven given it to his son. In Belgium it is illegal to use a VHF radio/transmitter or even listen in on ATC without having a radio operator's license). **************************************************************************** From Ric I think there's some merit in looking at cases like this, and the actions of other known hoaxers, to see if we can find consistencies in their behavior that may help us assess the content of alleged post-loss Earhaert messages. What does a hoaxer want? How does he get his kicks? Some obviously have a financial motive, but others seem to be on purely a power trip. Surely somebody has studied this. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:58:53 EST From: Andy Crewe Subject: Re: pre-atomic age metals When I first read this posting it reminded me of something I had read about the scuttled WW1 battleships at Scapa Flow (in the UK for those that don't know). I had a quick search on the web and found the following reference at http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/jralston/rk/scapa/salvage.htm The other myth is when with great authority it is said that the radioactive steel was of great value as it was used to make surgical instruments. Wrong, there was one firm in Edinburgh, Nuclear Enterprises which had a requirement for undamaged 7" armourplate which they used to make "whole body monitors" which were used in atomic establishments. A whole body monitor was a box large enough to place a patient or worker at an atomic establishment who was suspected of being contaminated with radioactivity so that he could be monitored in an environment which was totally free of background radiation. I never saw one but I believe the box was big enough to have the patient on a stretcher and the monitoring equipment. This is written by a person who used to own a company that actually salvaged the scrap metals from the sunken ships, so he should know what he is talking about. Andy Crewe. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:08:54 EST From: Marty Moleski Subject: Proving Negatives (Again) I had time today to read the TIGHAR Tracks for January, 2001. It is a great publication, and I hope it helps to bring in the cash you need for Niku IIII. I'm very sad that you threw in the false, unproven, and unprovable generalization that "You can not [sic] prove a negative hypothesis" on p. 7. Mathematicians, scientists, and historians do this all the time. For example, the Michelson-Morley experiments in the late 19th century proved that there was no aether acting as a substratum for electro-magnetic radiation. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a universal negation thoroughly supported by all available evidence from quantum mechanics: measuring the velocity of quantum particles disturbs their position and vice-versa. To come closer to home, your trip to the Lady of the Lake showed that parts were missing from the airframe; there is no reason why further evidence, as yet undiscovered by TIGHAR, might not prove some day that the belly antenna was lost at Lae. Just because the photo alone is not sufficient evidence does not mean that the hypothesis of antenna loss is an Unprovable Negative. A few more negatives known to be true: There is no Man in the Moon. The moon is not made of green cheese. There are no canals on Mars built by intelligent beings and visible on earth. There is no face on Mars. There is no formal system of logic that can be proven to be both consistent and complete. There is at the present time no commonly-accepted Grand Unification Theory of the four forces of nature. Negatives that may be proven true in the next year or so: AE and FN did not splash down in mid-ocean. AE was not taken prisoner by the Japanese. AE did not return to the U.S. in disguise. All the best. Marty **************************************************************************** From Ric Any hypothesis can be stated in negative terms. That doesn't make it a negative hypothesis. A hypotheis can only be proven by confirming the truth of a positive statement. We can only prove that AE and FN did not splash down in mid-ocean by finding them someplace else. Ditto for AE was not taken prisoner by the Japanese. To prove that AE did not return to the U.S. in disguise we'll need to find her remains someplace else. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:19:10 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Wrecks and reefs Have you seen many aircraft remains after around 60 years on a coral/rock reef? Over Christmas I was looking at the radial engine recovered from a reef wreck fairly recently.. It wasn't a Pratt & Whitney, but it was from a twin engined WWII bomber that crashed off Queensland. Very interesting. I didn't have a camera, but the fellow who recovered it also recovered control column, engine controls and a few other odd bits. It is about 500 miles away and I may be back there in a few weeks. I'll take my camera just for the heck of it. I can also ask Ben if he took any pictures of the aircraft remains on the reef. Ben being Ben I imagine there's video footage and photos. As far as I can remember the wreck was in shallow reef water (our Great Barrier Reef). Most of the wreck pics I've seen have been deep water stuff. This was shallow and very corroded. May add to the ideas for what the Electra may look like these days.. Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:20:27 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Fred's glasses Just another foot-note regarding FN & perhaps something else to look for if remains are ever recovered. While reading through the Long's book ('The Mystery Solved'), it was noted that FN supposedly sat on his eyeglasses (sometime before the takeoff from Miami) & had to have them replaced, since without them he couldn't read the fine print on his charts. (This info was apparently gleaned from an article in the New York Herald-Tribune (June 1, 1937) bearing the by-line of C. B. Allen, the Aviation Editor, who was in Miami to cover the second start of the round-the-world flight.) In all the photos I've ever seen of FN, I've never seen any showing him wearing glasses so I would assume these were only 'reading' glasses, used whenever he was pouring over his charts. Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:50:45 EST From: Ric Subject: Forum delayed The forum will be a bit delayed today (and may even get postponed until tomorrow) so that I can finish a project and meet a deadline. Thanks for your patience. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:02:59 EST From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Proving Negatives (Again) > Any hypothesis can be stated in negative terms. That doesn't make it a > negative hypothesis. A hypothesis can only be proven by confirming the truth > of a positive statement. I hope all the would be word mechanics would take careful note of the statement above. It should end this thread. All the hair-splitting and play on words one can think up will not change the simple fact that, "A hypotheis can only be proven by confirming the truth of a positive statement." If just a little thought could be given to the so-called negative statements it should be obvious to anyone. Each of Marty's statements can be stated in a positive form. Marty knows that. Marty will also note that my second sentence is stated negatively but only for readability. It could just as well be stated in a positive form. I would, however, concede that most "absolutes" could better be stated as less so. Alan #2329 **************************************************************************** From Marty Moleski >From Ric > > Any hypothesis can be stated in negative terms. Presumably you have some interior test that you use to distinguish between Truly Unprovable Negatives and those that are Merely Positives Restated. I don't think the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem can be based on any positive statement. His hypothesis was that there are no integer solutions of a problem in number theory. This is a negative now known (proven) to be true. It is not an inverted positive. Goedel's Theorem is a universal negative truth about mathematics: there is not and can never be a proof that the whole of any formal system is complete and consistent. So, too, with the Uncertainty Principle. You cannot measure position and velocity of quantum particles simultaneously. The whole point of the Principle involves a negation, and cannot be properly stated without it. Lastly, the seminal proof by Michelson and Morley that there is no aether as conceived by 19th-century physicists. They had no positive version of their finding. They did not know what accounted for the wave-nature of light. All that they could say was that their experiments proved that light was not moving through aether. > That doesn't make it a > negative hypothesis. A hypotheis can only be proven by confirming the > truth of a positive statement. Well, the hypothesis that "there was no antenna on the plane when this picture was taken" is not an Unprovable Negative. It is not an instance of the (false, unproven) maxim that "You cannot prove a negative hypothesis." Asserting this falsehood does not relieve TIGHAR from being open to evidence that would be just as convincing as the statement "We found pieces missing from the Lady of the Lake." Recognizing pieces are missing from airplanes (AE's on takeoff, the bomber in the woods) is not impossible. One photograph is not sufficient proof, but other evidence could emerge. I am concerned about this issue because of TIGHAR's desire to make the search for AE and FN an opportunity to teach about science. It is not good for budding scientists to adopt a false generalization as a guideline for their research. Of course, if you or anyone on the forum can show me where it is established that "You cannot prove a negative," I would be happy to revise my view of reality and logic. At the same time, I will have to inspect the argument to see whether it is self-refuting. If "You cannot prove a negative" is not a negative hypothesis, I don't know what is. **************************************************************************** From Ric Ouch! Lemme think about that. I don't feel qualified to deal with Fermat, Goedel, Michelson and Morley (sounds like a law firm), but I do not think that "We found pieces missing from the Lady of the Lake." is a negative hypothesis. There is a difference between saying. "There are no elephants in my office." (a true negative hypothesis) and saying, "There is a leg missing from this elephant." In the first case we can only establish the likelihood of the hypothesis being true by exercising our INABILITY to find an elephant in the office. "Dinosaurs are extinct" is a similar negative hypothesis. What we really mean is "As far as we can tell, dinosaurs are extinct." But when I say, "There is a leg missing from this elephant." I'm starting from the observation that the normal condition for elephants is that they have four legs and I note that this one has only three. The established norm of four legged elephants and the presence of three legs, rather than four, on this one makes my statement "There is a leg missing from this elephant." a positive and provable hypothesis. Similarly, the entity known as a B-23 has certain component parts just as an elephant has four legs. If I say, "There are pieces missing from this B-23." that's a positive and provable hypothesis. I agree that "there was no antenna on the plane when this picture was taken" is not an Unprovable Negative. It is not a negative hypothesis at all. Just as with the elephant and the B-23, NR16020 had definable component parts in set locations. Establishing whether or not one or more of the components is missing is a matter of credible observation, i.e. do we have sufficient evidence to establish that the component is not present? As I think about it, the difference seems to be whether the hypothesis is general or specific. The elephant in the office is general. He could be anywhere. The missing leg is specific. If it ain't there, it ain't there. That's why I can't say with certainty that there was no Bendix reciever aboard the airplane. There is no one place where it has to be so I'll never know whether I've looked in all the possible places. Is anyone not confused? LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:12:42 EST From: Mike Muenich Subject: Bone site While reading some background material on another matter, I stumbled upon the report of the Solomon Islands Expedition in December of 1995. In reading the summary of Dirk Ballendorf's notes/report I noted the reference to Dr. Teinamati Mereki as follows: "Dr. Mereki indicated on a map the general area where the skeletons were said to have been found". Further on, the report states: "British Colonial Service officer Eric Bevington toured the island three months after Earhart disappeared. His diary (a contemporaneous written source) confirms that he saw 'signs of previous habitation' but doesn't say where. When queried in 1992 he indicated (anecdote) the same general area where Mereki says the bones were found. It was from that same part of the island that, in 1991, TIGHAR recovered the remains of shoes (physical evidence)." Finally, the report refers to a Bauro Tikana, who was "told by laborers there (at the time of his arrival in 1940) that bones had been found both near the shipwreck and on the 'other end' of the island". This is of course was all written before the "bones" story was confirmed by the location of the various "bones" reports, entries etc., confirming Ballendorf's information received in the Solomons. Have you reviewed Mereki's map and Ballendorf's notes/report for the next "bones" search? Does his (Mereki's) site match TIGHAR's shoe discovery? The report indicates that some "say the skeletons were found lying side by side, others say they were not side by side". This could account for two different sets of shoes "found" at one site (side by side) or could account for the possibility of a grave by the Norwich City and a second set of bones at Mereki's site. "They were white people because they were wearing shoes. (Another interviewee, Rev. Aberaam Abera, says that they had not only shoes but remnants of clothing that islanders didn't wear.) One of the skeletons was judged to be that of a woman because it was smaller than the other." All of the latter is the type of anecdotal "confusion" which seems to result from the telling/re-telling of stories, but the report seems to confirm two skeletons, shoes, and two possible locations. **************************************************************************** From Ric The map provided by Dr. Ballendorf in his report indicated that Dr. Mereki had indicated an area on Aukeraime South considerably southeast of where the shoe parts were found. Unfortunately, although some videotape was made during the interview, no videotape or recording was made of the portion of the interview during which the bone story was discussed and all we have is Dr. Ballendorf's paraphrase account of what Dr. Mereki said. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:20:01 EST From: Tom MM Subject: Careful, that's the good stuff! I think we all do this enough to smile without seeming critical, and I don't mean it to appear that way at all. I just loved this too much to pass up. >In all the photos I've ever seen of FN, I've never seen any showing him >wearing glasses so I would assume these were only 'reading' glasses, >used whenever he was pouring over his charts. Anyway, on to serious stuff. Ric, last year I speculated that the coordinate in brackets on pg. 3 of Betty's notebook may have been written at a later time than the rest of the page. Your reply mentioned that you were having the notebook looked at by a document examiner. Any feedback? On the subject of aircraft lost near Niku, it is interesting that #11, the USN PB4Y missing on a 1943 flight from Canton to Funafuti would have passed essentially directly over Niku on its flight path. I know it could not have flopped down on the reef without anyone noticing, but there does appear to be the potential for some aluminum floating debris (pontoons, floats) in the area. In fact, it is amazing how many flying boats of various kinds were lost in the general area. The probability of stuff just washing up on Niku is admittedly small, but not infinitesimally so. TOM MM **************************************************************************** From Ric We have not yet had the document examiner look at the notebook. Just haven't gotten around to it. You may be confusing the PB4Y (the Navy variant of the B-24 "Liberator") with the PBY-4 "Catalina" or PB2Y "Coronado." The latter two were flying boats. The PB4Y was, of course, a land plane. Not to say that a large land plane crashing into the sea would not leave some floating debris. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:23:06 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Scars on the reef << If scraping metal leaves permanent scars on the reef flat we should see lots of such scars "downstream" of Norwich City. I haven't noticed anything like that. >> During the last 60+ years, any scars of Electra parts moving around would be impossible to spot. Reefs and reef flats are not stable places, rather exactly the opposite is true, witness the destruction of the Norwich City. During the years of regular mayhem a reef flat experiences, lots of stuff gets broken and dragged around, namely coral heads, that would make any marks from Electra parts or even the NC imposible to distinguish from marks left over from the normal pattern of scarring. My guess is that you shouldn't expect to notice any unusual scarring "downstream" of Norwich City or anywhere else. It would be like looking for a particular footprint on the 50 yard line two weeks after the Giants win the superbowl. LTM (Who's environmental science degree might finally come in handy) Andrew McKenna 1045CE ** **************************************************************************From Ric Ah, the perils of predictive anaology. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:27:50 EST From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: pre-atomic age metals > The other myth is when with great authority it is said that the radioactive > steel was of great value as it was used to make surgical instruments. Wrong, Assume you meant "non-radioactive" above. I believe I said "medical," not "surgical" instruments and stated it as information I was passing along, not "with great authority." I someone else stated it thus, or said "surgical," I missed it. The item I quoted (later) said "...valuable today for various researches." - Bill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:41:25 EST From: Mike Muenich Subject: Bones search Following up on my previous post today--I gotta get a life--I find the following materials in various TIGHAR shelves. From the "7" site bulletin issued 6/21/00 "According to Gallaghher, the kanawa tree on the lagoon shore was cut down around December of 1939. Then in roughly April of 1940, a skull was found and buried by a work party (Doing what? Cutting down more kanawa trees?). In September 1940 Gallagher arrived, heard about the skull, and by September 23 had conducted what he termed a "thorough search" and found bones and artifacts." Gallagher telegram of 10/17/40 states "Bones were found on South East corner of island. . . ." Again in his telegram of 12/27/40 he restates the location as "the remains of the unidentified individual found on the South Eastern shore of Gardner Island;". In this same telegram of 12/27/40 he states: "2. The fact that the skull has been buried in damp ground for nearly a year. . . ." This seems to re-enforce the kanawa cutting (December, 1939 and seems to indicate that the skull was found later in April of 1940) and then goes on to discuss an "intensive search" of the area where the bones are found. In response to the request for further searching he states, again in Par. 2: "it is possible that something may come to hand during the course of the next few months when the area in question will be again thoroughly examined during the course of planting operations. Par. 3 then refers to relatives and "the coffin in which the remains are contained is made from a local wood known as 'kanawa' and the tree was, until a year ago, growing on the edge of the lagoon, not very far from the spot where the deceased was found." Thus I theorize that the work parties were clearing an area for planting, found the skull, interrupted clearing/planting operations on instructions to find out more about the skeleton and after that was completed, planned to resume clearing/planting operations. If correct, the area would be that planted in early 1941. I seem to recall a map in one of the TIGHAR publications which shows the planting areas and their dates. How do any of the planting areas compare with any of the sites TIGHAR has scheduled for search? Do any of the planting sites correlate with Dr. Mereki's point on Ballendorf's map?; Kanawa Point?; the shoe site? I think we really need a bigger and better map showing more of the various locations, annotated witha photographic index. I know that there are any number of photos, maps showing various sites, artifact location, photo references etc, but you have to have them all at hand for comparison and that's hard to do. **************************************************************************** From Ric <> No, as far as we know the area indicated by Mereki (via Ballendorf) was never cleared or planted. <> Kanawa Point seems to have been harvested of Kanawa trees but we see no evidence in the photos that it was ever cleared and planted. <> Aerial photos clearly indicate that the shoe site was cleared for planting sometime after April 1939 and before June 1941. There is also clear evidence of clearing at the Seven site by June of 1941. No planting seems to have been done there, or if it was it didn't take. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:03:57 EST From: Woody Subject: Re: Aircraft on Ocean Floor Near Howland & Baker & Gardner As for Baker Island , Joe Gervais sailed there in 1991 ( to both Howland and Baker Island) and remarked to me that ther are pieces of an "out of fuel B-24" on Baker"that crashed at the end of the runway , broke up and slid into the water .The pieces that obstrutced the runway were removed to the "junkyard" where they remain to this day. Is that plane on anybody's list? He also told me that the Japanese were "buzzing" the island with aircraft during the runway construction on Howland. I would love to know what kind of planes they used and where they were launched from. As for sub carried planes, the first was the I-6, launched in 1934. At the time of Amelia's disappearance , only the I-6 and I-7 were in service . Francillion's-Aircraft of the Pacific War has a complete list of those subs including launch and loss dates. Woody **************************************************************************** From Ric I wonder how Mr. Gervais identified the wreckage as that of a B-24? I wonder how he knows that it was "was an out of fuel B-24 that crashed at the end of the runway , broke up and slid into the water". I have a great deal of difficulty believing the story about Japanese planes buzzing the runway at Howland when it was under construction in 1937. Any idea what his source is? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:22:49 EST From: Woody Subject: Colonists removed from Howland? After the attack on Pearl Harbor the japanese shelled and strafed Howland , Baker and Jarvis Island from submarines. It's interesting to note that they damaged the memorial to Amelia on Howland during the attack These islands were colonized with Hawaiians from the Kamehameha Schools on Oahu in 1936.After the Japanese complained about it the Hawaiians were removed. They were recolonized after the Japanese withdrew from the League of Nations Treaty and remained that way until Jan 1942. **************************************************************************** From Ric I don't know about the submarines, but Howland was bombed early in the war by long-range flying boats flying from Majuro in the Marshalls ("NanYo", Peattie, page 257) I'll ask you to document that bit about the U.S withdrawing the colonists on Howland and Baker because of Japanese complaints. I can't find any reference to such a thing and it sounds highly unlikely. Randy, have you ever of this? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:33:05 EST From: Rick Seapin Subject: Painting on ebay Check out item #546775145 on ebay. It is a William Reynolds print. It's titled, "Earhart down at sea". An eerie work to say the least. Notice the belly antennae. Enjoy, Ric **************************************************************************** From Ric Some important new information here. Apparently the aircraft's R-1340s were replaced by the smaller R-985s of the Model 10A and the dorsal antenna mast was moved back to where it was on the first attempt. Also, only the first half of the belly antenna is missing. We're going to have to rethink this whole thing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:37:00 EST From: Woody Subject: Coral I just finished reading a long article on coral. Having grown up in Hawaii, I have some firsthand experience with it . Nasty stuff. Coral only grows naturally to a depth of about 30 feet according to this article. If you find deeper than this, it's usually dead.The article implied that when you find coral at depth's more than this, its a result of time, tide and erosion. I've been told that when coral is damaged on it's living surface that it takes years to recover.Coral grows on the surface of it's dead sibling's. Anything under that surface is dead. I'm sure that if a plane slammed into a coral reef the resultant damage would be visible for decades. When TIGHAR goes back to Niku, maybe they can dive on the reef and look at where the hull of the Norwich City rolled around on the reef.Since the back third of the ship hung over the edge as evidenced by the aerial photos and eventually broke off, there should be a big "notch" in the reef where the stern hung over the edge.But what if the plane landed in say, ten feet of water and then drifted ashore or into shallow water and went aground in sand? As I remember, none of my castles left much of a mark in the sand after only one day when I was a "young'in". Woody **************************************************************************** From Ric There is no place, except in the lagoon or the main channel, where the water is ever ten feet deep. On the reef it's 4 to 4 and half feet deep at high water and dry or nearly dry at low water. Off the edge of the reef it drops off almost vertically. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:42:21 EST From: Denise Subject: Aircraft Crashes? Mike Holt says: "Come to think of it, how often have aircraft crashed and been intact enough to permit a message to be transmitted to world ... " A.E. didn't crash, surely. She put the plane down on the reef. It was an already known practise. "Fiji Air", during its earliest days, used to make reef landings in out-of-the-way places when an aircraft was damaged in flight. It would tear the hell out of the tyres, sure, but the plane would be in fine condition and be reused again after its recovery. Here's a thought: since A.E. is known to have consulted various airplane companies who flew the Pacific while organising her trip maybe one of these would have been Fiji Air? Or maybe it was common practise and the various other Pacific-based companies also did reef landings when the need arose. But, either way, the upshot of this is there was a tradition of reef landings by small planes in trouble in the Pacific region and it is not unlikely A.E. knew about them and thus this is what she did, maybe, in this particular instance. LTM (who loves all kinds of extrapolation) Denise **************************************************************************** From Ric Any idea what kind of planes Fiji Air was operating? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:46:00 EST From: TL Simpson Subject: White Bird "BAD NEWS" Ric, Iam back,watched "Restless Spirts" last night .I could handle the fantasy up to the PT-17.got to thinking if TIGHAR found Nungesser and coli's white bird,they would have to change all the history books.Maybe thats why the engine the hunters found came up missing? TL Simpson **************************************************************************** From Ric If the White Bird was found anywhere but intact and in Manhattan there would be no need to change history other than to tell the end of the mystery of it's disappearance. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:48:17 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Button conclusions I was recently looking over some photos of AE from the flight and noticed the buttons on her blouse, especially the light colored one. Has the research into the button artifact concluded? What did we learn? blue skies, -jerry **************************************************************************** From Ric In a nutshell, here's what we've been able to learn about the button: - it seems to be made of bakelite (very typical for the pre-war years) - it's a bit big for a shirt button - more like a trouser button - it does not match any military button we've been able to find - the workers on Gardner wore shorts which probably had buttons but the buttons stocked in the Co-Op store were made of bone, not bakelite. - Gallagher probaly wore trousers with buttons. - Earhart sometimes wore trousers with buttons on the side. - there is a dark stain on the button which has not been identified. It could have been left by rotting flesh but it would take a pretty sophisticated police lab to find out. We may get to that but the fact is that the button itself is not distinctive enough to ever be diagnostic. The best clue as to the origin of the button may be whether there are more buttons in the immediate vicinity. We'll check that out this summer. A trouser button lost by accident because it just came loose is going to be all by itself. More buttons may mean that an entire piece of clothing decayed away in that area. An abandoned piece of clothing could be indicative of a dead body. Remember, we already know that a castaway died on the island and we think it happened right in the area where the button was found. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:51:53 EST From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Proving Negatives (Again) None of us are not never confused about nothing. Alan #2329 *************************************************************************** From Ric Now THERE is a negative hypothesis. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:05:36 EST From: Mike Muenich Subject: Bones search Why would the seven site have been cleared if it wasn't going to be planted? Gallagher doesn't seem to be the type that would waste native labor. Theory--while clearing the site in December to April 1940 and maybe later, the skull is found and re-buried. Gallagher reports finding in September and receives instructions to do detailed search which occurs in the fall of 1940. Thinking additional searching will occur while they finish clearing and planting in spring of 1941--he so advises Vaskees, in response to second request, by telegram on December 27th, 1940. Gallagher doesn't realize the natives aren't happy. There seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence about ghosts, spirits, bodies, don't go near the "plane", the Norwich City, etc from the various native interviews. Here the natives have their worst nightmare--not only have they found a skull and buried it, possibly by their customs, but they were ordered back to the site, made a search, found many additional bones, Gallagher has shipped them, the bones, off--the spirits ain't happy etc. Natives to Gallagher--WE ARE NOT GOING BACK THERE! Gallagher, mildly embarassed by small mutiny doesn't report this problem and shortly dies. No ones the wiser--after all he doesn't seem to report where he is clearing and planting, only that he is doing the work. After his death and given the secrecy of the matter, his successor might not even know about the bones, clearing, or proposed planting. The seven site remains unplanted. **************************************************************************** From Ric If the Seven site is where this all happened it does seem that it was Gallagher's original intention to plant that area (because he said so). As to why it never got planted, that's speculation and I have nothing to disprove your scenario. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:10:54 EST From: Mike Muenich Subject: mapping I have been giving the matter of mapping additional thought. You might considered "borrowing" a modern, mid-level GPS unit for the search which I understand has a accuracy of about +/- one (1) foot. If you are able to get a good map or aerial photo of the island with a control point in lat/long you could locate all sites by bearing and distance with great accuracy. Would prevent "losing" areas or sites with re-vegatation or memory lapse, i.e. the "shoe" site could be literally re-located to within one foot of where you found it. Past artifacts would be tough to establish, but once system is established, a good CAD operator could locate points and produce drawing in about 1" to 400' scale with layers for artifacts, dwellings, plantings, natural features, photo index, search areas etc. By manipulating which layers are "on" you could compare, re-locate points, determine, distance and bearing to any site or point on the drawing. Can be printed (plotted) on 24" X 36" for reproduction or sale. Can even be transmitted by e-mail as attachment and anyone with a CAD program or viewer can see and reproduce. AutoCad 12 and up can even add elevations and provided topographical date, GPS will provide point elevation data as well. **************************************************************************** From Ric In 1997 we spent a lot of time and energy collecting GPS data which never really did us any good. In those days the government was still scrambling the signal and we couldn't georeference the island without gathering many days worth of readings at a base station. The bad weather forced us to disassemble the base station before adequate data was collected. Maybe things will be better this time around. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:18:06 EST From: Janet Whitney Subject: 16 mm newsreel film of Earhart taking-off on e-Bay I saw this item up for auction on e-Bay this afternoon. Janet Whitney *************************************************************************** From Ric It would save me a lot of time if you'd include a specific URL. I think you mean the old newsreel footage at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1406950345 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:41:13 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Colonists removed from Howland? I think that the colonists were removed at the start of the war in the Pacific, after Pearl Harbor. I guess that you could consider that a Japanese protest! Both Howland and Baker are mostly flat, and treeless. I suspect that the memorial to AE (wasn't it a navigation beacon?) would be one of the few visible features on Howland. Daniel Postellon TIGHAR#2263 LTM (who has many visible features) **************************************************************************** From Ric It was a little lighthouse thingy. **************************************************************************** From Randy Jacobson The colonization was originally undertaken in 1935, under the auspices of the Dept. of Commerce (Bureau of Air Commerce), William Miller in charge; army personnel were the colonists. For undetermined reasons, the Big Brass in DC pulled the plug on them in March, 1936 (I hope I have the month correct), and reinstated them in June/July of that year under the direction of Dept. of Interior, William Miller on loan to DoI, now with Kamehameha students. The documentation for the pullout is sparse, but it was quick and purposeful. I always suspected it was inter-departmental rivalries or the use of military personnel, and one finally settled by FDR (also speculation). No mention of Japanese complaints. I'm sure the British were horrified about these islands being colonized, as they also had tenuous claims to them. **************************************************************************** From Woody The islands were first colonized in 1935 between March 25 and April 1 by the Itasca . (Lost Star- item 1). The National Geographic Eclipse expedition of 1937 dropped off Hawaiians on Enderbury and Canton in March 1938(June 1938 NG- Crusoes of Canton Island) there is a caption under a photo of the colonist's camp stating that the camp is similar to the ones built recently on Howard, Baker and Jarvis. The comment about the colonist's first removal was in one of my books. When I find the reference I will post it. There are two other articles on Canton and Enderbury-Sept 1937 NG -Natures Most Dramatic Spectacle and Adventures on a Desert Isle. **************************************************************************** From Ric The Itasca is a boat. It can not colonize anything. The "colonies" on Howland, Baker and Jarvis were originally established by the Department of Commerce and later by the Department of the Interior (as described above by Randy). The Itasca, a Department of the Treasury vessel (Coast Guard) provided transportation. I'm puzzled as to how the National Geo Eclipse expedition in June of 1937 could do anything in 1938? If you're using Earhart conspiracy books as sources you're in for a rough ride on this Forum. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:43:56 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: views of Baker, Howland & Jarvis islands Howland and Baker are now run by the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Their website is short on history, but it says all three were US occupied during WW2. There is a nice aerial photo of Baker, to compare to the satellite photo, as well as actual ground level photos of Howland and Jarvis. They look less hospitable than Nikumaroro. Daniel Postellon TIGHAR#2263 http://www.r1.fws.gov/pacific/wnwr/pbakernwr.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:44:57 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Howland and Baker More than you ever wanted to know about Howland and Baker Islands is available at the Interior Dept. website. Occupied by colonists 1936-1942, uninhabited since. Daniel Postellon TIGHAR#2263 http://www.doi.gov/oia/facts.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:49:53 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Bones search Gallagher's statement about the area being planted soon continues to bother me, though not enough to outweigh the evidence pointing to the Seven Site. Whether it ever got planted or not, and whatever the reason its planting might not have happened, why even PLAN to leapfrog over to the southeast end and plant there when lots of land remained uncleared on Nutiran and around the northern windward side? There are possibilities. There's mention somewhere in the PISS reports of holding some land for "bush reserve," and this might have been on eastern Nutiran. There was a lot of uncertainty at the time about whether Buka forest soil was good for coconuts, and Gallagher might have been trying out different areas experimentally to see what combinations of soil, exposure to the wind, etc. worked best. But it still seems an odd thing to do. One of the things that makes me wish we could find something -- like Gallagher's photographs -- that might help us be surer about where the bones were really found. TKing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:00:02 EST From: Woody Subject: Gervais ID of B-24 Joe Gervais was an Air Force pilot for many years. He has thousands of hours of flight time in both B-24s and B29s. I would assume that his ID of the parts came from his familiarity with the aircraft. The buzzing incidents are on my list of "to ask "questions for him. ************************************************************************** From Ric Gervais is also the guy who thought Irene Bolam was Amelia Earhart. After many years of study I'm very familar with the Lockheed 10. Will you accept my undocumented opinion on what is and is not a Lockheed 10 part? "What's sauce for the goose......." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:15:12 EST From: Woody Subject: Re: Painting on ebay There is quite a bit of confusion about Amelia's powerplants.Look in photo 4 of Brink's book . If they are standing in front of Amelia's plane then it's a 10A at that point in time(that's clearly a R-985). Look at photo 6 (after the crash).Those engines are R-1340s. The easiest way to discern the difference is that the 985 cam is in the front cover so the pushrod tubes bolt onto the front cover. You can see one of the front cover attaching bolts in between the first two pushrod tubes in the photo. The 1340 has the cam in the main case so the pushrod tubes attach to it behind the front cover. You can see the circular row of bolts that hold the front cover on quite clearly on a 1340. The round object in between the cover bolts and pushrod tubes is the spark plug wire loom. Last summer I traveled to Denton , Midland and Tuscon just to satisfy my curiosity about engine installations and the way they look. I took a look at Linda Finch's plane (1340's) , the CAF's C-45 and the Pima Air Museum's 10-A (985's) I also have a military repair manual from 1954 on 985's and all of the 1340 variant's. Many illustration's and quite informative.Look at Pratt and Whitney's site on the net. They say that her plane was a 10-A! They also have all of their engine cards on file. Maybe they can shed some light on the discrepancy.Art Kennedy's book High Times states that his company was overhauling her 985's(Page 86).Yet in the crash photos in Hawaii those engines are1340's!My only other question is are she and Walter McMenamy really standing in front of her plane? In photo 5 of Brink's book they are in front of her plane again. The engines? 1340's! Woody **************************************************************************** From Ric Your description of how an R-985 "Wasp Jr." differs in appearance from an R-1340 "Wasp" is essentially correct, but immaterial. Rule Number One: Don't believe ANYTHING in Brink's book. Photo number 4 was taken in front of Earhart's Vega, not the Electra as Brink says. The Vega had an R-985. McMenamy spoke with Earhart briefly on the radio during her 1935 Hawaii/Oakland flight. He was not her "technical adviser" as Brink claims. Every photo of Earhart's Electra from first to last shows it with R-1340s. Every bit of official paperwork on the airplane describes it with the same two R-1340 S3H1s - serial numbers 6149 and 6150. I don't care what mistakes are on the P&W website or in Art Kennedy's book. There is absolutely no mystery about what engines were on Earhart's Electra. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:18:08 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Coral > From Woody >I'm sure that if a plane slammed into a coral reef the > resultant damage would be visible for decades. Coral does in fact grow fairly slowly in some respects, but "if" the reef around Niku is coral (it looks like mostly rock to me - but I haven't been there) any damage to the coral from impact will be disguised relatively quickly (in terms of the time scale we are talking about). We have perhaps the biggest coral reef in the world a few miles (well 20 or so) from where I sit now. Damage to the coral appears superficially repaired early. Of course, coral being a living organism, it never completely regains its original shape, but the radial engine I wrote about recently is an example. Almost completely covered in coral in around 50 years. Th' WOMBAT **************************************************************************** From Ric Niku is all coral. If you find a rock on Niku somebody brought it there. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:23:25 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Aircraft Crashes? From either Denise or Mike.. >. It would tear the hell out of the tyres, sure, but the plane would > be in fine condition and be reused again after its recovery. If the Electra landed on sand, there may not be much damage. If it landed on the reef, then things like oyster shells (are there oysters on the reef? you can't get away from them on our tropical reefs) are extremely sharp. Someone commented on the forum about coral cuts becoming infected. The most common cut in tropical waters on the Great Barrier Reef is probably an oyster cut. Shells are much sharper than corals, which are generally soft in their live state. That said, once you cut yourself, allowing the cut into contact with coral is asking for trouble. Aircraft tyres are usually thin (relative to the tread on an auto tyre) and soft. The softness might help the tyre ride over things that could cut it, and might cushion the impact of rocks on the reef. If however, the tyre(s) did become damaged there's no way the aircraft would be in fine condition afterwards. The Honolulu crash showed what happens when the Electra loses a wheel on smooth asphalt or concrete. The reef would not be so kind.... Th' WOMBAT **************************************************************************** From Ric No oysters at Niku. The reef surface can vary from smooth enough to roller skate to almost too jagged to walk. I can't speak for the thickness of the Electra's tires (tyres) but they were HUGE compared to the tires on a similar-size airplane today. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:27:42 EST From: Woody Subject: Re: 16 mm newsreel film of Earhart taking-off on e-Bay Hey Ric, Is this the EAA's missing reel? Woody **************************************************************************** From Ric No. From the description it sounds like the press-event takeoff from Oakland on March 16, 1937, the day before the departure for the first World Flight attempt. That footage was often used as part of newsreel segments about the disappearance, which is what this piece of newsreel film sounds like. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:47:13 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: No Subject Living on the Barrier reef coast, and being a "yachtie" sailing these waters and islands I have my own views on the subject. I decided to do some checking with someone who knows, so this is my second post on this subject today. I have just got off the phone to an expert in the field of diving on aircraft in shallow water on coral reefs. The radial engine I saw at Christmas was from a Mitchell which ditched in 20ft of water on the Great Barrier Reef. It had plenty of coral growth, but the airframe was completely recognisable. Coral grows slowly at that depth. Another aircraft, a Vultee dive bomber ditched in about 6ft of water on the lagoon side of the reef in around 1945. In 1990, it had 3 feet (height) of coral growing over the wing. Ben assures me that it was (and is) still completely recognisable as an aircraft even under all that coral. This would suggest that damage - even impact damage - to the reef would be so well covered by coral by now as to look like just another hole. On the other hand, it also suggests that if the Electra is in shallow water, it should be readily recognisable as an aircraft even if it in coral. (Of course we know the aircraft probably broke up and is not recognisable). Another couple of things came out of this discussion. As well as being one of the first scuba divers in the world (he had to build his own aqualung and mask etc.) Ben has been a pilot. He wonders why anyone would consider landing on a reef when there was a lagoon to ditch in. The other thing. Searching the lagoon or the reef would probably be much easier from an aircraft (using polaroid glasses of course). When I mentioned the impossibility of this, he asked if anyone had thought of a hot air balloon or parasail. Now the parasail idea sounds crazy at first until you realise the rubber duck is probably fast enough. The balloon idea, well, I wonder if it has ever been considered? They do have small ones with collapsible baskets I guess. You could tether the thing and spy out all sorts of things you'd never see any other way. (Just make sure you have a very strong tether! I imagine you all wear polaroid glasses as a matter of course on the Niku expeditions. In reef waters they are a life saver (literally) allowing you to see under the surface of the water whilst walking on the reef or near the water. Th' WOMBAT **************************************************************************** From Ric That all agrees with our impression from other sources. As for whether to land on the reef or ditch in the lagoon, your friend's reaction is typical of people who fly insured or government-owned aircraft. For Earhart, the decision to ditch in the lagoon would be a decision to end her career in disgrace. Landing on the reef presented the possibility of refueling (when the Itasca arrived) and taking off to continue the journey. We've often struggled with ideas about how we could get eyes-in-the-sky over Niku. Hot air balloons, dirigibles, kites, parasails, ultralights, helicopters, RPVs - you name it. We even lugged an ultralight out there one time but never got to use because the weather was too bad. We once experimented with a videocamera suspended from a kite. The videotape was useless and made everyone who tried to watch it airsick. The bottom line is that it is a very difficult place to deploy any kind of technology. Hard to get it there, hard to launch it, hard to maintain it - and all that takes (read: wastes) time and people. With very few exceptions, the rule at Niku is "less is more." LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:01:36 EST From: Andy Crewe Subject: Re: Bones search The very fact that Gallagher, the person responsible for upsetting the spirits, then died, must have been a very powerful message that the spirits were not happy. Although the natives were Christians and presumably educated, the 'old beliefs' must have still been quite strong, especially amongst the elders. We do have an account that one of the natives wives had a 'spiritual experience' on the island, apparently seeing one of the ancient Gods. Andy Crewe **************************************************************************** From Ric Sort of. The Island Magistrate's wife saw Nei Manganibuka, not exactly an ancient God but certainly a spiritual entity. Let's remember that it's our culture that has a television show called "Touched By An Angel." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:04:23 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: pouring/pondering/poring >From Tom MM >...'I think we all do this enough to smile without seeming critical, and >I don't mean it to appear that way at all. I just loved this too much to >pass up. >...'In all the photos I've ever seen of FN, I've never seen any showing >him wearing glasses so I would assume these were only 'reading' glasses, >used whenever he was pouring over his charts...' On second thought, considering all the second-hand, anecdotal accounts of FN's consumption of alcoholic beverages, perhaps a better choice would have been...'pondering over his charts',,, Don Neumann *************************************************************************** From Ric The word you were looking for is "poring." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:06:42 EST From: Mike Muenich Subject: button Also remember that Dirk Ballendorf's interview's in 1995 turn up a Rev. Aberaam Abera, who said that the body(s) had not only shoes but remnants of clothing that islanders didn't wear. Additional buttons would tend to confirm and lead credence to Abera's statments. **************************************************************************** From Ric And again, Rev. Abera's interview was not recorded.