Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:56:06 EDT From: Tom King Subject: hot needles <> What, you've never tried acupuncture? ***************************************************************** From Ric Wonderful. Now we're doing alternative therapies on artifacts. I wonder if we all swallowed a tiny bit of the shoe sole we might be able to homeopathically determine its origin? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:00:00 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Hot needle test Ric: said: "James Matthews (the archaeologist examing the button) is doing something called a "hot needle test" to that end." If memory serves me, that is a common test to determine the difference between plastic and natural products. Simply heat the pin tip until it is red-hot (yes, you should use gloves!) and touch the tip to the object in an inconspicuous place. If the pin tip sinks in the object is probably plastic or some other man-made stuff. If not, it is probably a natural product, i.e. antler, seashell, ivory, etc.. Helpful, but not infallible. (BTW This was also a common practice -- long, long ago in a land far, far away --for making bullet holes in the fuselages of my model aircraft to simulate battle damage. The problem was that the proportions weren't correct; what was intended to look like .50-caliber machine gun bullet holes on a 1/72nd scale plastic aircraft instead more closely resembled holes from a 40mm cannon! KA-BLOOEY!) LTM, who is nostalgic today Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ***************************************************************** From Ric A similar technique is also useful in conducting interviews. It's amazing what people will tell you if properly motivated. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:21:51 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: 7 site observation The Laxton explanation also struck me as strange, simply for the reason that I can't imagine why anyone needs a "vacation house" get-away on the island (how much isolation can you take), which leads me to think it was built for a special, limited purpose. If the rectangular object is a desalinization unit, I wonder why it was left there. Any ideas? Maybe it didn't work, but still it could have been used for scrap like other pieces of aluminum. I will re-check the dates of the photo and when Gallagher would've been at the site searching, but, since "island time" runs more slowly than our's maybe they just hadn't gotten around to taking it back yet. --Chris **************************************************************** From Ric The chronology goes like this: September 23, 1940 - Gallagher says he has found bones and artifacts. October 26, 1940 - Vaskess orders "organized search" December 27, 1940 - Gallagher reports that an "intensive search" has been made. February 11, 1941 - Isaac informs Gallagher that remains are those of an "elderly Polynesian male." June 12, 1941 - Gallagher leaves Nikumaroro June 20, 1941 - Photo is taken. From the above it would appear most likely that the organized/intensive search was done circa early November 1940 before the weather turned sour in late November and December as reported by Galllagher. For most of this time the island's wireless was also inop, which explains why Gallagher did not report further discoveries as they were made. Why was a (putative) water condenser still on site in June after probably being brought there the previous November? Hard to say. It's awfully heavy and hard to transport. Maybe it wasn't needed back in the village (we see several similar tanks in the village today). It does, however, seem to have been moved from where it appears in the 1941 photo to where we found it in 1996 (assuming its the same tank). Maybe they got it part way back to the lagoon shore and said "Ah, screw it!" and just left it there. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:27:35 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: Almon A. Gray A Forum posting by someone named Bob in Jan. 1999 said Gray is deceased. I am trying to get in touch with Riley, who wrote the latest Naval History article mentioning Gray, about both Gray and Lang. An email address I was given for Riley did not work (nothing is ever easy with AE/FN) and I'm recontacting my original source for other info, if they have it. Blue skies, -jerry ***************************************************************** From Ric The Naval Institute is usually pretty good about that. I did receive a phone call from a reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle who was doing a story on the article for the Earhart disappearance anniversary (gotta have something on Amelia every July 2nd). She said that the Naval Institute "agonized for three years before publishing Riley's allegations and consulted fact checkers and lawyers before agreeing to go ahead." Can ou believe it? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:39:40 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Almon A. Gray There's only one book in the Library of Congress catalog by an author named Michael A. Lang. I copied the info from the listing below. It looks like it's in German, which I don't read. I'm sure one of the Tighars can translate the title for us. Author: Lang, Michael Andreas, 1912- [from old catalog] Title: Rund um an See. Published: Wels, Verl. Welserm=FChl (1973). Description: 62 p. 19 cm. LC Call No.: PT2672.A4494R8 Control No.: 8077612 ltm jon 2266 ***************************************************************** From Ric It' an idiomatic expression equivalent to: Das Leben von Frederich Noonan. Actually, our best German 202 translation is something like "Around The World By Sea." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:41:10 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: marks on coral reef Actually, I know from personal experience that Ric's version of events is entirely plausible. As you know, I surf a lot down in Galveston. Several years ago they did an artificial beach replenishment project at my favorite surf spot, and pumped a whole bunch of sand from offshore onto the beach. As storms struck, the new sand was gradually pulled outward, reducing the water depth (and incidentally messing up the surf close in and bringing in bunches of stupid bathers into the surf area). Over time, this sand washed out farther to sea, restoring the water depth, the waves, and also cutting down the number of bathers close in. Actually, I remember there being sand plumes out from the beach for awhile. --Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:50:46 EDT From: Joe Arcure Subject: Re: 7 site observation Tom King wrote; <It seems to me that the researchers on this project are approaching the >job with little understanding of the scientific method. The scientific >method would aim at trying to identify and explain the artifacts rather >than trying to prove a preexisting notion. TIGHAR is not trying to fit the button to a pre-existing notion. TIGHAR would like, if possible, to identify the source of the button. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:42:44 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: Fuel Oil I think the point is this is the explanation for why little of all that fuel of ships that were torpedoed or sunk by bombs during WW II never reached any beach. What kind of fuel did the Norwich City burn ? **************************************************************** From Ric I suspect that lots of the oil from torpedoed ships reached the beach but in the context of war it didn't seem worth mentioning. I don't know what kind of oil Norwich City burned but I'd want to have some idea that having that information would help us find Amelia before I spent a lot time researching it. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:46:13 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Reef mark at the Seven... Christian D wrote, >If they did some extensive >digging, they may just have taken the excavated dirt to the edge of the >beach, may be dumped it with a wheelbarrow? Relatively speaking, that would represent some truly extensive digging. Soil analysis onsite, anyone? william 2243 **************************************************************** From Ric I'd be surprise if Gallagher's search involved much digging. The "soil" in that area is coral rubble (which looks a whole lot like pieces of bone). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:48:29 EDT From: Kerry Tiller Subject: Re: Almon A. Gray > She said that the Naval Institute "agonized for > three years before publishing Riley's allegations and consulted fact checkers > and lawyers before agreeing to go ahead." Can you believe it? I can believe it. Our primary concern in the navy is "CYA". BTW, since it is already the 2nd here in Japan, allow me to be the first to say "Happy (?) anniversary. LTM Kerry Tiller #2350 ***************************************************************** From Ric Happy indeed. Heck, if she hadn't disappeared we'd all have to find something else to scratch our heads about. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:49:40 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Reef mark at the Seven... Christian wonders: >I don't have all the elements and the chronology at my fingertips; but could >it have been the major search done by "Irish"? If they did some extensive >digging, they may just have taken the excavated dirt to the edge of the >beach, may be dumped it with a wheelbarrow? Just to get the stuff out of the >way? Might have been easier than first clearing a land dump from the heavy >brush... Interesting thought. Pretty common archaeological technique, then as now, to barrow or basket your backdirt well away from the excavation site. But if they did that much digging, I'd expect we'd still see some evidence of it, and Laxton would have seen even more. I think we've assumed that they just did a close surface inspection, but it's certainly possible that they did some digging, and even screening. TK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:51:40 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Stevenson Well, I thought as I typed it, "now, is it Lewis or Louis? Stevenson, or Stephenson? Never CAN remember. Oh well, somebody on the Forum will doubtless correct me, and then I'll always remember. Thanks, Joe. LTMather? Moother? Muther? Tom ****************************************************************** From Ric That's "Mutha." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:55:20 EDT From: Richard Lund Subject: oil impact on coral This is a webpage with a report on the damage done to the coral in the ocean after the gulf war,if anyone would like to read up on the subject. http://www.scilib.ucsd.edu/sio/guide/zgulfwar.html However, I believe it was stated unlikely to be the cause of such a large area of the reef as the marks indicated.as it would take more oil than what was in AE's Electra to create the mark in the coral. ric: by near the spot in my previous post I meant on the same island,I'll try to be more precise in future post and to do a little more research into my theories before I post them to the forum.hopefully this will help minimize your already busy workload. Thank you as well to those who responded to my request for software suggestions. "the truth is only a matter of opinion" Richard ***************************************************************** From Ric ...and history is a collection of agreed-upon lies. I hope not. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:58:24 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: Howard Hughes > From Ric > > Good question. I don't know much about Hughes' flight except that he flew > a Lockheed 14 "Super Electra" and appears to have used the same type of > Hooven Radio Compass rejected by Earhart. Didn't Hughes own Lockheed or Pam AM or was it later he acquire one of them? If he did, perhaps he had some first hand knowledge of the mistakes with the Earhart flight. Regards Warren ***************************************************************** From Ric No. Hughes did not own either Lockheed or Pan Am. I'd frankly be surprised if an aviator of Hughes' ability paid any attention at all to the Earhart flight. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:31:17 EDT From: Jonathan Einarsen Subject: Warning to new guys Ok, this one was enough for me to finally de-lurk and chime in my unsolicited 2 cents. First, allow me to introduce myself: My name is Jonathan Einarsen. During daylight I'm a video systems engineer. For the past two months I've been lurking on this forum to satisfy a curiosity that I imagine is shared by most everyone here. I submit this post both as an introduction and to offer the perspective of another "new guy". First of all, I read the introduction. If I remember correctly, it did say that the forum was *strictly* for the discussion of the disappearance of AE and FN as it relates to the possible landing on Niku. That said, I offer the following personal perspective: Prior to last April, my interest in AE was simply a passing curiosity. Then I happened upon *gasp* Elgen Long's book. My main attraction to the book was the cover and specifically the words "Mystery Solved". (Score 0 for the scientific method, 1 for marketing.) I found it a fascinating and interesting read. It appealed directly to several other passing curiosities including early radio, aviation, WWII, history, and an odd sort of interest in the human dynamics of catastrophe) I'll stop short of saying that I believed every word - but I absolutely found it "possible". With my appetite for information on the subject now ravenous, I set out on the web to find more. After a brief stop at a "Saipan" site that I found mostly humorous, I landed on TIGHAR's cyber runway. I must say that my first impression of the site was not considerably better than the "Saipan" site. I would attribute that mostly to a set of pre-existing assumptions that there is a whole heap of water and a teeny tiny bit of dry land in that general vicinity which makes the whole "Landed on a deserted island" concept seem kind of weak - at first. Now two months later I'm still reading every email and my appetite for more is still strong. The theory I first met with skepticism I now consider one of the two most probable scenarios. (Thank you Mr. Gilespie and the rest of TIGHAR for your attention to science, method, and demonstrating a genuine interest in the "truth" and not simply proving the current theory) As for this forum and the non-TIGHAR theories, I have some simple comments: 1) Isn't this a PUBLIC forum? Isn't it open to non-TIGHAR members? As such, wouldn't you EXPECT a certain number of people with dissenting opinions? If you don't want to discuss the "old stuff" with every "new guy" I'd recommend a "member's only" forum. 2) Since my first exposure to the current camps of thought on AE was through the Long's book, I have many questions that relate to the differences between their theories and TIGHAR. If this is a public forum, I would expect it to be the appropriate place for such discussion. 3) I'm going to make the further assumption that this forum is also a vehicle to attract new membership. Perhaps some indulgence of the under-informed would go well to attract some of those elusive financial supporters. 4) Preaching to the choir gets you nowhere, saves no new souls, and is neither fun nor challenging. I truly hope that my expressed opinions do not disguise the seeds of genuine admiration I have for many of the people on this forum. I also hope I've managed to make a better first impression than the last "new guy". I don't know if I have much to offer in the way of new expertise or insight into the matter at hand. I have enjoyed lurking these last two months and look forward to participating in the future. My apologies to the list for the length. Soon-to-be-member, Jonathan ***************************************************************** From Ric Congratulations on your decision to de-lurk (probably a better expression than "coming out"). I take your active participation as a compliment. Thank you. Yes, this is a public forum but it's not a public free-for-all. Our primary objective is to solve the mystery by finding incontrovertible hard evidence (i.e. DNA-matched human remains and/or serial numbered aircraft parts). After twelve years we've pretty much convinced ourselves that we're on the right track and, despite frequent excursions into the realm of crashed-at-sea and captured-by-the-Japanese, have yet to find any support for those theories. It's therefore, I hope, understandable that we prefer to focus on the avenues of investigation that have in the past proved fruitful and, we expect, will do so in the future. That said, we are always open to real evidence that contributes to our understanding of the Earhart case, even if - no - especially if, it casts doubt on anything in the chain of evidence that points to Nikumaroro. We also realize that the people who are most likely to join the forum are those who already have an interest in the Earhart case and, by definition, have read books and articles and have seen TV shows and, quite naturally, have questions. Depite our resemblance to a cult , we really don't expect or want anyone to "convert" on the basis of "faith." We've tried to make a lot of answers available on the TIGHAR website but we can't cover everything that way. So, please, ask your questions and we'll do our best to answer them, and chances are we'll learn something too. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:34:53 EDT From: Vern Subject: Almon Gray/Michael Lang Thanks to Jon Watson... >Author: Lang, Michael Andreas, 1912- [from old catalog] >Title: Rund um an See. (Around The World By Sea), per Ric's German 202 >Published: 1973 Maybe Lang became interested in doing one called, "Around the World by Air" and was researching Noonan in preparation for that. "Rund um an Luft," perhaps?? So... We understand that Gray is dead and, if this is our Michael A. Lang, he appears to have been born in 1912 and is probably dead also. What we need to find are living family members of either or both in the hope that someone may still have Lang's stuff. If we could find Gray's family, they may have something that would point us toward Lang and his family. If we can discover Gray's last known location. That might help find family. ****************************************************************** From Ric Actually, it may be a lot easier than that. Turns out there's a Michael Lang who works at the Smithsonian. Much more likely that he's our guy. I'll try to contact him. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:41:01 EDT From: Vern Subject: More Gray/Lang There's always something to nit-pick about. In Riley's article he attributes the knowledge of Fred's having a Radiotelegraph License to Gray. Gray is said to have been Assistant Communications Superintendent for PAA and knew Fred Noonan well. It seems reasonable that he would have know about the license. In his own article, "Amelia Didn't Know Radio," (1993) Gray attributes that information to the "recent research by Noonan biographer, Michael A. Lang." This seems not well explained by "literary license" taken by Riley to simplify the story. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:49:09 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Almon A. Gray My good friend Don Wade, you know him, says he will send me all of the Capt AL Gray"s stuff; Wade says Gray's work is the best resource of Amelia's equipment on the Electra. Or do you have his book? Ron Bright (PS For forum members not acquainted with Wade, he was an early researcher, sort of retired, that claims Amelia crashed in the Phoenix Island but not Gardner. As of this date, he won't tell) **************************************************************** From Ric I've never met Don Wade, but I know of him. My understanding is that Wade thinks she crashed on Hull. I don't know what work Gray did to establish what equipment was aboard the Electra and I didn't know he (or Wade) ever wrote a book but his article in Naval History doesn't give any great confidence that he understood historical investigation. It will be interesting to see what Wade sends you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:54:46 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: marks on coral reef I've been biting my tongue here for a while, but can't resist the urge to put all my feet in my mouth again.. The clearing has allowed fresh water from the heavy summer rains to pass fairly freely to the beach rather than forcing the absorbtion of the water into the ground. The runoff has been a combination of sand and fresh water. Fresh water flowing across inshore coral will kill the coral and the nutrients it requires in a fairly short time. Coral takes a fair while to regenerate once it dies. Assumption 1: There is coral on the reef at the site of the runoff. Assumption 2: It rains heavily on Niku during the tropical wet season. Model: Damage to the coastal reefs in North Queensland from fresh water runoff from farming lands, plus the runoff from the construction of the "Daintree" road some years ago (and the conservation uproar). Still speculation, however... Th' WOMBAT ***************************************************************** From Ric The clearing was probably done in early November 1940 and we know that there was very heavy weather, almost certainly accompanied by heavy rains, in late November through December. The photo was taken the following June, so that part fits your theory. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:55:44 EDT From: Greg Subject: A note about Antoine De Saint Exupreys P38 The television program Sunday Morning presented by CBS showed a dive on what could be the remains of St Exupreys P38. The underwater images clearly showed painted sheet metal parts perhaps a spinner and what appeared to be a landing gear leg. There also appeared to be a significant quantity of other debris at the site. The above water images included a rocky outgrowth near the shoreline. Greg ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:06:42 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: 2 JULY 1937 Just to let everybody know that Amelia Earhart was on Belgian state television today. It was just a 5 minute commemorative program to remind viewers that she disappeared on 2 July in 1937. There was a short biography with shots from newsreels showing her flying a La Cierva autogiro, getting out of the Fokker FVIIb floatplane becoming the first woman to have crossed the Atlantic, showing her then with her Lockheed Vega in Ireland after the first woman solo flight across the Atlantic and then talking to the farmer on whose meadow she landed, next arriving in her Vega from Honolulu and holding a conference press, the inauguration of a monument in London and finally word on her disappearance during an attempt to fly around the world. Interesting black & white pictures. No mention of Nikumaroro. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:45:49 EDT From: Ric Subject: Michael Lang I have just received an email message from the Michael Lang referred to in Almon Gray's article. He has asked that I not say anything further pending discussions about whether or not he has information that he may be willing to share with TIGHAR. I'll let you know more when I can. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:48:29 EDT From: Janet Powell Subject: Re: Fuel Oil Having woken up from a very long sleep... (), I'm catching up on weeks of forum mail! My attention is drawn to the discussion of fuel oil and the Norwich City, and whilst I am unable to state with any certainty, I can perhaps offer some knowledgeable observations. I understand that at the time of the N.C., a large percentage of Steam Ships were fired using coal...- the N.C. herself was originally coal fired. (I believe that Lloyd's kept percentages oil and coal fired ships in their Registers). Oil in use at that time, was almost certainly 'Bunker Oil', which varied considerably from that used today. It was a much lighter oil... more like, 'a diesel type/gas type oil', and would likely have degraded more quickly. LTM Janet Powell ***************************************************************** From Ric For those who may not recall, Janet is the great niece of Capt. Daniel Hamer, master of S.S. Norwich City. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:50:30 EDT From: Margot Still Subject: Re: Howard Hughes UM, RICHARD, ARE YOU SURE ABOUT HUGHES NOT OWNING PAN AM? (I hate to question the Captain.....) ***************************************************************** From Ric I'm sure he didn't own it at the time in question (1937/38). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:11:40 EDT From: Kerry Tiller Subject: Re: Howard Hughes Didn't Hughes found Trans World Airlines? Kerry Tiller #2350 *************************************************************** From William Webster-Garman Howard Hughes founded Trans World Airlines (TWA). The name was a direct derivative of and one-upsmanship on the name Pan Am ("across America" > "trans World"). william 2243 ***************************************************************** From Jim Duffy For the info of those interested, it was TWA that was Howard Hughes airline. He never at any time had any interest, or was connected with, the great and long lamented Pan Am. Jim Duffy ***************************************************************** From Roger Kelley If memory serves me right, I think Howard Hughes was a major share holder in TWA after WW II and until the late 50's or early 60's. Hughes involvement in TWA was instrumental in TWA's purchase and operation of Lockheed Constellations prior to the age of jetliners. Roger Kelley #2112 ***************************************************************** From Warren Lambing Ok it was TWA, and it would appear that they had good working relationship with Lockheed Here is a URL http://users.erols.com/dbarrese/twa.htm I should have look first. Regards. Warren ****************************************************************** From Marilyn Pollock Howard Hughes did not own Pan Am He owned TWA back in the '50s. Marilyn (#1238) ****************************************************************** From Bob Sherman Ric: >Hughes did not own either Lockheed or Pan Am. *** Howard was friendly with Jack Fry, TWA's # 4 pilot, with a seniority date of 11-26-27, and pres. of TWA after the airmail fiasco shake out. Jack was having trouble with his board of directors over an unusual problem. Losses, the need for new aircraft, and ambitious expansion plans.... He jawed with Howard over the situation, incl. the need for the new Boeing pressurized Stratoliner [looked like a B-17], and international routes. Howard was interested, began buying stock and in early '39, with 47% of the stock in his pocket, Howard 'owned' TWA. [via Hughes Tool co.] He and Jack had a great deal to do with the specs of the first '049' Connie, and the two of them made a record BUR to DCA flt. with the first one. In 1947 he dismised Frye. Ca late '60', Hughes got in trouble with his desire to eat his cake and keep it too. The bankers that he had humiliated earlier by making them sign a deal in the mens room in the wee hours, forced him to sell his stock in TWA. [at about 82 .. he paid 3 to 7 for it.] RC ****************************************************************** From Jim Tierney Ric-To answer your question--- HH never owned Pan AM--He and Juan Trippe didnt like each other... HH did own TWA for a time and of course- with his unusual management style -almost ruined it..... Jim Tierney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:23:41 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Howard Hughes > From Ric > > No. Hughes did not own either Lockheed or Pan Am. I'd frankly be surprised >if an aviator of Hughes' ability paid any attention at all to the Earhart flight. I'd be surprised if he didn't! Any trip over that much water involves considering all possibilities. Th' WOMBAT ****************************************************************** From Ric Well, there's probably not much mileage in debating what Howard Hughes would or would not have been interested in. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:28:51 EDT From: Janet Whitney Subject: Re: Longs vs. Itasca's Radio Logs Are we missing something, or are the Longs being selective in their interpretation of what times the Itasca radioed Earhart on July 2nd? (see Chapter 13 of "The Mystery Solved.") It appears that when Earhart radioed at 15:15 GMT on July 2nd that she "will listen on hour and half hour on 3105 KC," the Itasca responded by attemping to contact Earhart by voice on the hour and half-hour GMT, and also on "Itasca time", and at many other times before the final transmission the Itasca heard from Earhart at 20:14 GMT on 3105 KC. Janet Whitney ***************************************************************** From Ric Before long we hope to have up on the TIGHAR website - PDF files showing the original Itasca logs - line by line translations of the radio operator's shorthand for each entry - a plain English entry by entry narrative of what was going on. That should greatly facilitate debate. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:32:42 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: marks on coral reef > From Ric > > The clearing was probably done in early November 1940 and we know that >there was very heavy weather, almost certainly accompanied by heavy rains, in >late November through December. The photo was taken the following June, so >that part fits your theory. Still only theory.. I'll dig up some documented stuff on the damage here and regeneration times. There's a lot of it around if I can find it.. If I remember correctly, once the vegetation has gone, if the fresh water flow continues some of the coral does not regenerate. HOWEVER, this is from memory, so I may be barking up the wrong coconut palm... and therefore leading us all astray. If I'm correct though, it makes more sense than an oil or fuel spill in that spot of that magnitude. Th' WOMBAT **************************************************************** From Ric The other thing is, as far as I know, the coral on the reef flat is already dead. That's why I lean toward the white mark being nothing more than sand that has been washed down and out onto the flat. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:36:14 EDT From: Christian Subject: Antoine St.Ex On Sunday evening there was an all evening special on the german TV channel ARTE on the 100th birthday of Antoine St. Exupery (Hope to have typed him correct). It consisted of three films. The first was a mixture of historical documents and an actors play to show the hero respect. The second part was a documentation of the search for his plane, filled up with a lot of pictures from his last day when he was accompanied by a fotografing reporter right until the stripping in to his last flight. The search has to overcome a problem quite different from ours: We search for a plane in an environment where there is no other plane for miles. The searchers for St.Ex. have to inspect a lot of wrecks to find out which one is which for in that region of the mediterranean there are literally dozens of wrecks and not a small number of them are P-38. But I got the feeling the search is done mostly by 1.charter a ship, 2.Jump into water 3. no recce P-38, 4. forget it. No mentions of all the archives- and paper-work I would have thought to be necessary. And by far not the Tighar-Way. Third movie was a pure actors-piece resembling his life, women and so on. LTM and a good 4th July Christian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:37:36 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Coast Guard Buttons Dillard Gates wrote, >It seems to me that the researchers on this project are approaching the >job with little understanding of the scientific method. The scientific >method would aim at trying to identify and explain the artifacts rather >than trying to prove a preexisting notion. Actually, the scientific method would not try to identify and explain the artifacts, unless one were doing a scientific analysis of, say, buttons for their own sake. The scientific method would generate hypotheses and try to test them, using whatever data it could lay its hands on -- such as artifacts. That's what we're trying to do the Nikumaroro hypothesis. It's a preexisting notion, as is any hypothesis, but we're trying to test it, not prove it. LTM (whose son is, admittedly, only a SOCIAL scientist) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:46:37 EDT From: Chuck Boyle Subject: Re: Button, button. Who's got the button? The response copied below is from Al Hall who was stationed on Canton with the AAF during and or after WW2. Lee (Chuck) Boyle 2060 "The buttons look like many others that were used in the 30's and 40's according to my expert seamstress wife. Navy and Coast Guard folks on Canton used old Army khaki pants and cut the legs off. Definitely not "Issue". Some of us got caught wearing these during an Inspection by a Navy Admiral when he came to Canton. We also cut off legs of Navy blue jeans. I vaguely remember similar buttons on the front of the boxer Navy shorts. But the examples shown don't really ring a bell with me. Sorry." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:57:40 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: marks on coral reef Re. Th' Wombat's hypothesis: if clearing-induced runoff caused the marks (very reasonable, and consistent with Th' Ric's hypothesis), then I should think we ought to see something similar on the reef adjacent to Ameriki after the Loran Station was put in. How's our coverage of that area, Ric? LTM (who appreciates running off) TK ***************************************************************** From Ric Hard to say. We have one photo that shows the Loran station just about the time the construction work was completed (September 1944). They've bulldozed the bejesus out of the that end of the island, the antenna towers are up, the quonsets are in place, but the engineers little tent city is still in place near the beach. The reef flat just offshore the cleared area looks generally lighter in color than it does offshore the uncleared areas but there has been so much clearing that it's hard to tell whether the lighter color is anomalous or just a natural variation in the rreef color in that area. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:59:34 EDT From: Margot Still Subject: PAM AM & HOWARD HUGHES OK, OK, OK. Margot stepped in it BIG TIME. So I confused PAN AM with TWA. My brain was cluttered with lots of useless information at the time. I knew that, really I did. Here's an interesting bit of worthless trivia in my head. While researching the B-23 in Idaho, I discovered the first plane to have a phone installed in it was a B-23 owned by none other than Howard Hughes. While not related to any current discussion on the FORUM, it is none the less an interesting fact. LTM, (who overlooks cluttered brains from time to time) MStill #2332 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:03:04 EDT From: Jim Duffy Subject: Re: Howard Hughes It appears that we have thoroughly researched and exhausted the TWA-Howard Hughes connection, but please permit me to correct one last mis-impression that was raised. The name, TWA, has nothing to do with "one-upmanship" toward Pan Am. It comes from the original name, Transcontinental & Western Airlines, which was changed to Trans World Airlines when the company moved from being a strictly domestic airline when the CAB, and the countries involved, approved international routes for them. Jim Duffy ****************************************************************** From Ric And before Transcontinental merged with Western it was known as Transcontinental Air Transport or T.A.T. (popularly said to stand for Take A Train). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:04:38 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: marks on coral reef Ric sez: >The other thing is, as far as I know, the coral on the reef flat is already >dead. That's why I lean toward the white mark being nothing more than sand >that has been washed down and out onto the flat. But on most reef flats it gets liver (that is, more live, like higher proportion of live coral to dead) as you get closer to the reef edge. That might be why the mark is rather more obvious farther out on the flat. LTM (and her liver) TK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:07:31 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Button, button. Who's got the button? Seems like everything about the button is comming back that it dates from the '30s/'40s, and I find it interesting that all the seamstresses can actually date the button (I wonder what it is about it that makes it distinctive to this time period---can the people who are doing this work explain this further?). Also, it seems like everything else at the site we've discussed thus far is comming back from the same time period. Assuming this holds, perhaps a tentative conclusion we can make is that the site saw no activity after this time period, even though the island was occupied up to the early '60s (after all, people didn't stop losing things or dumping things after the '30s/'40s). This gives some credence to the notion that this may have been a "special purpose" site. --Chris Kennedy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:51:37 EDT From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Re: mark on the reef How's this for an idea Wasn't there a piece of screen found at the 7 site near the water tank? So, Gallagher digs up the skull, and during the intensive search, he thinks there might be more bones in the hole so he digs further into it, and sifts this sand in the surf through a washing box with a screen bottom to separate the bone sized stuff from the fine grained sand. This fine grained material is then washed out over the intertidal coral in a thin bed visible from above in air photos, but only for a while, until it finds a better resting place farther out or back on the beach. Its a long shot, I know, but.... Let me guess, you are going to tell me that the screen is too fine meshed to sift the sand. LTM (who hates using washing boxes...) Andrew McKenna **************************************************************** From Ric Now THAT'S what I call an efficient forum posting. The answer is provided with the question. Yeah, the screen is very fine and the material in the hole is mostly finger-sized chunks of coral rubble. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:17:40 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Howard Hughes With all due respect and courtesy to Jim Duffy, I stand by my statement that the name "Trans World" was a derivative and one-upmanship of Pan Am's name. The use of the word "Transcontinental" in the name of one of the firm's forerunners was almost certainly an opportunity and inspiration to use that particular latin root in a new name that would "transcend" the Pan Am moniker. The talented Mr. Hughes was well known for very carefully choosing what he believed to be effective and generic-sounding names for his businesses. william 2243 ****************************************************************** From Ric If this was worth pursuing, and if I were Mr. Duffy, I'd be trying to establish that the name change happened before Hughes became involved with the company. If I were Mr. Webster-Garman I'd try to establish the converse and, ideally, come up with a company memo from Hughes directing the change and specifically mentioning his rationale. Otherwise, we're just debating the mental processes of Howard Hughes - a dicey endeavor if there ever was one. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:36:19 EDT From: Dave Porter Subject: Noonan Project possible lead? I've been slogging my way through forum digests to catch up from being away on military duty for the last couple weeks, and though I'm not completely caught up yet, wanted to toss in my usual two cents worth. First off, I hope your mother is doing better. Mine had a stroke while I was away at the Benning School for Boys, and is recovering now, but it made for a few nights even more sleepless than those normally experienced by Army Drill Sergeants. (rest easy America: your sons in the infantry are not being overly stressed, nor is their self esteem being damaged--so long as we can manage to stay out of a shootin' war, everything will be just fine) Re: Ron Dawson and the Noonan Project: Here in the Detroit area there is a Noonan Pontiac auto dealership that is actually operated by folks named Noonan. Since it'd be a local call for me I'd be happy to make an inquiry--just give me some command guidance into how such things are done. LTM, who is happy to learn that "Survivor" does NOT have the "aye" of the TIGHAR. Dave Porter, 2288 ****************************************************************** From Ric The "aye" of the TIGHAR? Clever. Noonan is actually a fairly common Irish name, but no harm in asking. I'd just call up, ask for Mr. (or MS.) Noonan and explain that you're a member of an aviation historical group researching the Amelia Earhart disppearance and wondered if there was any chance her navigator, Fred Noonan, was a relative. What you do next, of course, depends upon the response but the first step is to just up and ask. LTM, Ric (who remembers the "old program" at the Benning School for Boys) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:41:36 EDT From: Dave Porter Subject: THE button All caught up on forum digests now. D'ya suppose Ike had to fill out an Environmental Impact Statement form for the Normandy invasion? Was unable to access the TIGHAR website to check out the "7" site bulletin, at approx. 12:30am, Thu. 6 July. Hope all's well at TIGHAR Central, will try again tomorrow. Re: the button, is there a Coast Guard Museum somewhere that might have examples of period uniforms someone could look at? The Infantry Museum at Ft. Benning has many old uniforms on display, some dating back much further than the 1930's. If the Coasties have something similar somewhere, maybe the button can be definitively identified. For Dennis: what caliber of shell do you suppose could account for the 1/8" drill bit holes in the green plastic army men of my mis-spent youth? LTM, who says maybe the man from the BUTTONWOOD lost the button. Dave Porter, 2288 ***************************************************************** From Ric Anybody know if the Coast Guard has a museum with old uniforms? They have a fairly informal "Radio Museum" at Cape May, NJ which we have used to some benefit, but I saw no old uniforms there. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:04:58 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Welcome to aw-waw lah-bore-a-tory . . . Jonathan Einarsen said: "Preaching to the choir gets you nowhere, saves no new souls, and is neither fun nor challenging. Actually, just the opposite is true. Preaching to the choir is very satisfying: everyone knows the words and they all can hum the melody. Plus, as "true believers," we don't need to be saved. The fun comes from harassing new choir members by sending them out on useless missions such as looking for a muffler belt for the car, searching for a burn-bag stretcher, or hunting down a two-legged milking stool. Welcome aboard Jonathan and we sincerely look forward to anything you can contribute to this effort. Just remember to wear your helmet and flak jacket at all times, and, Hey!, let's be careful out there. LTM, who is no longer a rookie :-) Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:06:41 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: THE button USCG has a museum at New London, CT - info at their website (reference below) http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/museum/muse_info.html I didn't take time to look through their "images" section, so I don't know what pix are on line, but it might be a source. ltm, jon 2266 ***************************************************************** From Ric Wow, that was fast. Thanks Jon. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:12:20 EDT From: Ric Subject: Pat has the helm I'm off to Idaho for the TIGHAR Aviation Archaelogy Course and Training Expedition. Assuming I survive the experience, I'll be back on duty Monday July 17. Until then, Pat will moderate the forum so, be nice. You know the old saying: "If Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:13:28 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: Button/Noonan Button - FYI, I emailed the Coast Guard's historical group, via their web site, asking about uniforms and museums. I'll let you know what they say. Motor City Noonans - if they say they are related, which every Noonan I've talked with has, email me and I'll give you the info to find out if they really are. I've eliminated about 10 "sure" relations so far. blue skies, -jerry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:17:59 EDT From: Paul Chattey Subject: Re: THE button The Coast Guard does have an informal museum at Pier 36 in Seattle with a few display cases of dress uniforms, lots of photos, and interesting bits of ships. They are staffed by very helpful retired Coasties who come in on an understandably occasional basis. I've made inquiries to find a phone #, as their hours are somewhat limited. I don't know if their collection includes fatigues & work clothing (enlisted and officers') from "our" period or if they have access to folks who might still have these items of clothing but will ask. Best thing I can think of is to ask if they have any clothing issued in WWII with buttons of size and color that match our artifact. Is the description on the web site? In case anyone wants to pursue a wider perspective, the USCG Historian's office in Washington DC is at 2100 2nd street, 20593-0001, phone numbers are (202) 267-0948, -2596, and -2172. Calling first to make an appointment is generally a very good idea before showing up. They're open M-F from 7:00 to 4:30. Their web site is at: http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/aboutoffice.html . Paul **************************************************************** From Ric There are two photos (front and back) with scales on the website at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/help4_19/help4_19.html [this page no longer exists] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:42:51 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: Whose button is it, anyway? I'm lost now re button button stuff, but has anyone gone in reverse. I'm guessing the theory is that the button belongs to the castaway. So has anyone gone to the AE museum in Atchinson (?) or at Purdue University, who have some clothes (and by the way shoes (size ?) for comparison. There must be other resources,relatives,etc on AE's side or photos of AE's ubiquitous shirt. What was she wearing when she left Lae? LTM Ron Bright 2342 **************************** From Pat Purdue has some articles of clothing, including at least one pair of slacks, in their collection of Earhart memorabilia. I dunno who has what else. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:43:35 EDT From: Tom King Subject: THE button Re. Coast Guard museums, the CG web site at http://www.uscg.mil/search/query.idq?CiRestriction=museum&CiScope=%2F&CiMaxRec ordsPerPage&TemplateName=query&CiSort=rank%5Bd%5D&HTMLQueryForm=%2Fsearch%2 Fsearch.html (YES!) indicates they have quite a few. This would seem like the place to start looking, if somebody's inclined to. LTM (who appreciates short, snappy URLs) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:44:29 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Howard Hughes Ric wrote, >If this was worth pursuing... Otherwise, we're just debating >the mental processes of Howard Hughes - a dicey endeavor if there ever was >one. Very true. Frankly, although I stand by my recollection, I don't think the subject is worth it (to me) to spend the time documenting it. The key words in Ric's reply were "If this was worth pursuing"... If this was Earhart related and I felt that something important was being missed, I'd probably feel differently. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:45:20 EDT From: Jim Duffy Subject: Re: Howard Hughes OK, Ric, here's the chronology: Howard Hughes began buying into TWA in late 1939 and acquired control in early 1940. He never had an official position or title, but he remained in control for 25 years. He liquidated his holdings on May 3, 1965. The name was changed to Trans World Airlines in 1950, although it had flown it's first trans-Atlantic flight {from New York to Paris via Gander and Shannon in a Lockheed Constellation} in 1946. The name change was slow and gradual and the new corporate name didn't become official until 1950. Ric, your TAT {Take A Train} reference reminded me that in in October of 1995 TWA flew Pope John Paul II from Newark to Rome in a specially-configured Boeing 767-300 during which TWA became "Travel With the Angels." Jim Duffy P.S. Can we now get back to "The Perils of AE & FN" ?. ******************************** Yup. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:48:32 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: Re: Howard Hughes It is seldom that both in an argument can be correct. Here is a case. From Jim Duffy: >The name, TWA, has nothing to do with "one-upmanship" toward Pan Am. It >comes from the original name, Transcontinental & Western Airlines, which was >changed to Trans World Airlines when the company moved from being a strictly >domestic airline when the CAB, and the countries involved, approved >international routes for them. From William Webster-Garman: >With all due respect and courtesy to Jim Duffy, I stand by my statement that >the name "Trans World" was a derivative and one-upmanship of Pan Am's name. >[almost certainly named by Howard Hughes] *** The name, Transcontinental & Western Air [express] was with TWA until sometime between 1943 & 1945, when the corporate name was changed to Trans World Airline. [no s on airline, it was added later.] The CAB gave TWA temporary international approval on July 5, 1945; dated pictures of Connies as early as December 3, 1945 have the name. TRANS WORLD AIRLINE on the fuselage. Although there are a few undated pictures of DC-4's probably before 1945 with the above name. Howard Hughes gained control of TWA in April 1939, and remained in control thru the 1950's Ergo he was in control a few years before the subject name change, and very likely approved of the name, whether or not it was his invention. RC ************************** And that's the last word on Mr. Hughes and TWA. Th-th-th-that's all, folks! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:40:28 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: American Heritage In the latest issue of Forbe's American Heritage Magazine, the theme is a long list of 'Most overated' and Most Underated' individuals. Guess who gets the nod for Most Overated Aviatrix. It is followed with a paragraph which portrays AE as a mindless robot and GP as the ultimate Svengali. The Most Underated Aviatrix is listed as Harriet Quimby. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 ***************************** Yeah, we saw that. They should have talked to us..... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:42:08 EDT From: Renaud Subject: light bulbs I've been missing for one month, so i've somewhat lost sight of today's forum subjects. Now, for what is worth... I've thrown a glance to the artifacts found. the photographs of the "light bulb" ( 2-3-W-3 ) struck me... I catched and removed the lamp from my desk... same bulb ! "bayonet" also, the bottom connectors have the same shape ( elliptical ) and same size ! For me, there is no doubt : your artifact is an european light bulb from a lamp. That is still very widely spreaded in France. I dunno if you have the same in USA... Is the "ceramic material" could be a part of a lamp which owned the bulb ? ****************************** We've got someone looking at that... help? I've been kinda out of the loop. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:42:44 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Whose button is it, anyway? Last I heard, the plan was that if it didn't look like the button could be accounted for by a Coast Guard or other obvious source, Ric was going to ask Gary Quigg, who lives not far from Purdue, to see what was buttoned up there. LTM (who's buttoned down) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:43:22 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: Howard Hughes I think the whole TWA story has already been explained by aviation historians and aviation authors. One is Robert Serling, who wrote "Howard Hughes' Airline". For those interested in AE, it may be interesting to know there is an association betweenAE and TWA. At least, she worked for the TWA predecessor company TAT (Transontinental Air Transport). This company was incorporated on May 16, 1928 and became known as 'the Lindbergh Airline" since TAT hired Lindbergh. He was chairman of the technical committee at an annual salary of $ 10,000 plus a gift of 25,000 shares of stock in the company. By the way, the stock, valued at $ 20 a share at the start, went up 10 points when the Lindbergh connection was made public. Lindbergh was not the only prominent name connected with the airline. So was Amelia Earhart. But AE never played the technical role Lindbergh played in the TWA predecessor airline. This is what Robert Serling writes about her Amelia Earhart at TAT : "She was appointed "assistant to the general traffic manage", although her job tenure was short-lived and her duties predictably vague. Her chief task seems to have been the christening of a Ford Trimotor on static display at New York's Penn Station although TAT publicity releases claimed she had been hired to develop interest in air travel among women". ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:45:58 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: Secret Navy files reveal AE on spy mission to Truk,says ex petty officer I"d like to revisit an off forum discussion concerning the possiblity of Navy files still extant at Crane Indiana. Brink's book "Lost Star" ,page 173-4 ,relates the recollections of Carrol F.Harris, a former navy photographer,and then a retired CHP officer, who in interviews in 1983, recalled seeing secret ONI files from a 4 drawer cabinet that clearly indicated AE was on a spy mission,i.e.,changes in the Electra's structure, intended flyover Truk, the installation of two Fairchild aerial cameras in the lower fuselage bay, the addition of two, more powerful Bendix radios,etc. All of which if true would substantially change the perspective of Amelia's flight. Harris told Brink he was assigned to Flag Secretary Admiral J.R. Smedberg and was directed to photograph (microfilm) the records in "OP-20G" and "ONI OP-16" files and that the Earhart files occupied "3/4 of a file cabinet". These files were located in ADM Smedberg's office in room 2052 of the old Navy Dept building on Constitution Ave. The files were "Top Secret" then. Note: Brink does not indicate when(what year) Harris microfilmed the files,whether there were witnesses to this event, where he stored them and whether Harris had mentioned this activity,apparently in the 40s , to anyone before and why and how Harris now (in 1983) was coming forward with these ancedotal recollections. But upon further investigation, there may be some truth in Harris' report. Former ONI officials that I know recall Earhart files in a four drawer cabinet as late as 1966 at Arlington,Va but believed they had been archived; they did not think there was any significant information relating to the Earhart mystery,only files relating to ONI's investigation into her disappearance. (The Agent Patton investigation in 1960 at Saipan). But this is just a guess of where the files went and as of this date I haven't pursued further this link. Addiltonallly , those files may not be the files that Harris was referring to. But here is where it gets interesting, I interviewed Barbara Harris,age 70s,still in California,who advised that her husband Carrol F. Harris, was indeed the Harris that provided Brink with his recollections in 1983. She said her husband retired from the California State Patrol in 1984 and died at age 64 in 1986. Harris, she said, was on active duty with the US Navy from 1941-47, then served in the active reserve until 1980. Barabara recalled that sometime in the 60s Carrol became acquainted with Fred Goerner,then in San Francisco, and subsequently became "good friends" over thier mutual interest in the Earhart mystery. Barbara said she learned the following from Carrol: In the mid-40s or thereabouts, Carrol was assigned duty as a yeoman in the Navy and his assignment was in the "mail room" of the White House doing work for the Navy.(FDR was Pres) During this period he was given a high security clearance and was assigned to microfilm some Earhart documents in a file cabinet with "Top Secret" Earhart material. Some of the files related to the installation of efquipment,radios,cameras into the AE's airplane.Harris related this information to Goerner and to Brink. Barbara said she was not particularily interested in the Earhart story so these recollections are vague (and of course hearsay). She was not sure exactly where Harris was assigned to the "White House" (Brink says it was the Old Navy Building).She met and married Harris years later while attending college. Barbara said that there are still some boxes of momentos etc in her house but has not gone through them searching for Earhart documents, Carrol's diaries,etc. Barabara said that based on what Carrol told her she thought those files that he was referring to went to Crane Indiana for archive purposes. (Goerner did follow some of those leads but struck out) Barabara agreed to additional interviews if she could be helpful and would search her files for Carrols material if any.She was quite responsive and seemed to be competent. She said Carrol was a respected CHP officer and credible. Another researcherand correspondent of mine, Doug Hubbard Sr.,founding father of the Nimitz Museum, became good friends with Fred Goerner and thus was instrumental in getting Fred upon his death to donate his material to that museum. According to Hubbard, Goerner was aware of the Harris story but thought that Harris was on guard duty in the office of the CNO and that one night he and some others got into a file cabinet with one drawer devoted to AE. This material was sent to Crane for storage and declassification. Hubbard has a copy of a letter from Casper Weinberger,SECDEF,in which Weinberger said it would take about 9 years to get to those files for declassification (about now). Comments: As luck would have it the primary source,Harris, is deceased and it is doubtful any of his records will be found. Nevertheless, it may be possible to prove or disprove the AE secret mission files but locating those files at Crane Indiana.In my opinion, they may not be Navy files since Harris was talking about the White House mail (or map) room.Obviously, if Harris' recollections are accuate, and according to Barbara, he had a "photographic" memory, it would cause quite a stir among AE researchers. Maybe Randy Jacobsen, who has searched Crane, could help.I know your friend ex Marine officer Jack Hillard agrees that the ONI files did not contain any solutions to her disappearnce or confirm any covert,secret mission stuff re Amelia's flight,but that doesn't mean the files Harris talked about are one and the same. Harris' recollections have a ring of truth and detail that a CHP officer offered for the truthof the matter. That's pretty good evidence,but of course not sworn testimony, and not corroborated. I'll keep on trying to see if the Harris story is true,false or simply a mistaken belief. LTM, Ron Bright( who probably got a ticket from Harris when living in Cal) *************************************** Well, I guess you know what our opinion is..... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:48:29 EDT From: Robert Heine Subject: Ebay photo I'm not sure how often any TIGHAR'S check ebay, but there is a photo for sale right now that shows the interior of the electra, including many instruments on the panel. You can see the edge of a fuel tank on the left side, and it is interesting to note that the photographer had to be back further in the fuse to take the photo, implying that there was room to get to the back of the plane without using a pole to pass notes. Here is the info on the photo including the sellers comments. Of course, you may already have a copy of this, but I remember comments that interior photos during the last flight were few and far between. -Robert Heine VINTAGE AMELIA EARHART PHOTOGRAPH 1937 Item #370169510 PHOTOGRAPH OF AMELIA EARHART IN THE COCKPIT OF HER LOCKHEED ELECTRA TAKEN JUST BEFORE HER 'LAST FLIGHT' IN 1937 FROM WHICH SHE NEVER RETURNED...IMAGE IS 7 1/2 BY 9 1/2" MOUNTED ON 11 BY 14" MAT...THIS IS AN ORIGINAL PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN BY EARHARTS ONLY AUTHORIZE PHOTAGRAPHER ALBERT BRESNIK...HIS NAME IS EMBOSSED IN LOWER LEFT CORNER OF PHOTO AND HE HAS SIGNED THE MAT...ON REVERSE IS ATTACHED PHOTOCOPY OF HIS STATEMENT OF AUTHENTICITY REGARDING THIS PHOTO AND HIS STATUS AS EARHARTS PHOTAGRAPHER...HE WAS ACTUALLY SLATED TO GO ON THE WORLD TRIP WITH A.E. BUT AT LAST MINUTE DID NOT...YOU CAN SEE THE EDGE OF THE LONG RANGE GAS TANKS IN PHOTO...WHEN I OBTAINED THIS PHOTO FROM BRESNIK YEARS AGO HE STATED THAT IT WAS THE LAST OF THIS PARTICULAR IMAGE HE HAD AVAILABLE...AND SINCE HIS DEATH CERTAINLY THE LAST SIGNED BY HIM...RARE AND VALUABLE AMELIA EARHART IMAGE... ******************************** We have at least contact prints if not full sized prints of all of Bresnik's photos. The bit about him being slated to go along is not true..... P ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 10:15:43 EDT From: Pat Subject: TIGHAR website housekeeping This is the only Forum message I will send out today. I've been tidying up the TIGHAR website, updating things, deleting old stuff, and so on. I have also done some reorganization that makes it easier for me to keep track of. Because of this, if you have pages bookmarked in your browser, those bookmarks may not work. Don't panic! Everything important is still there. Just go to the home page (www.tighar.org) and click through on each link until you get to where you want to go, and then make a new bookmark. I have mounted the new Earhart Project Bulletin, "Landing on the Reef." To go there directly, go to http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/Bulletins/ArchivedBulletins.html and click on #24, Landing on the Reef. Please let me know immediately if any link is not working or you see anything funky that I've missed. LTM, Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:18:58 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: E-bay photo Just to be certain it might be worth double checking the ebay picture to make sure we've got it, and, if we do, that it doesn't show anything else (perhaps our's was cropped differently). Sorry to pester.... --Chris ****************************************** What we have is a sheet produced by Bresnik of each of the photos he took--it's a sales piece, he was selling prints off the original negs. That's probably what someone has. But if someone wants to go take a look and maybe send me a jpeg, I'll compare it to what we have. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:20:28 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Lightbulbs It COULD be part of the lamp, but it may not even be ceramic. Right now we have Nancy Farrell, a Pacific archeological shell expert, looking at it to see if maybe it's a piece of a prehistoric shell ornament -- which it looks a lot like to me. Welcome back, Reynaud Tom KIng ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:21:35 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Secret Navy files reveal AE on spy mission to Truk,says ex petty officer I tried to get into Crane, IN files, but was told that they would be transferred to National Archives shortly (that was back in 1995 or so). NARA has received the files, and is working on declassifying them. When last I checked, late last year, they were still not available to researchers. My information indicates that what was at Crane were the copies of all radiotelegrams throughout all the Navy, and not ONI files per se. Strangely, ONI files on AE are at NARA, and are quite innocuous. Other ONI files on (barely) related subjects are similarly innocuous, as Op18G at that time was largely a hollow structure, and well undermanned. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:22:06 EDT From: Doug Brutlag Subject: AE & TWZ Sounds like AE was the beneficiary of some corporate welfare at TWA. Doug Brutlag #2335 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:23:29 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: American Heritage Ron Dawson noted (re Forbes magazine)... >It is followed with a paragraph which >portrays AE as a mindless robot and GP as the ultimate Svengali. As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle, between the old myth and Forbes' latest attempt to sell interesting magazines. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:24:29 EDT From: Christian D. Subject: Re: Lightbulbs I think one of the unanswered questions is the material of the bulb base. I think Ric was leaning toward copper (really red in color).... Have you ever seen a bayonet lamp base made of copper? Or are they all made of (yellow) brass, nowadays??? How about in the '30s? Could they have been made out of copper then? Cheers. Christian D. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:25:37 EDT From: John D. Subject: Article on Kanton hi pat im the guy that did his typing in caps at one time thanks to you ichanged can you tell me what month the ocean navigator had the article on kanton i tried several book stores here with no success thanks john d ************************* Can someone help John out? Randy? And where one could get a copy? P ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:41:40 EDT From: Charles Lim Subject: Re: Light bulb The item is a colonial light bulb. The features are almost identical to its modern day counterpart. As for the ceramic bit, the last time I was around, I guessed that it was part of some light fixture just by looking at the item and trying to 'trace' (Tracing work done by Tom King) certain physical features that were visible from the photos on Tighar's web page. I haven't a clue what the material is. If it is man made it is a ceramic. Otherwise it is ground shell, which is something I've never seen. A ceramic material will lend itself to the fact that it was probably manufactured. Other than that I also said that the type of the material was the key to finding out what this piece is, so I'm waiting for what the experts have to say first. Charles Lim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:35:57 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: e-bay photo I was discussing this with Ric before he went on TDY - I sent him the address, but I don't know if he got it in time to look before he left. If not, I captured a copy I can send you from home. It's pretty out of focus. ltm jon 2266 ************************* Thanks, Jon, I think he did look at it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:37:55 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Secret Navy files reveal AE on spy mission to Truk,says ex petty officer For Randy Jacobsen, Does that mean that we are still waiting declassification of these ONI files sometime in 2000 ? That's consistant with Weinbergers reply to Goerner. How does your source know that the classified files contain only navy radiotelegrams ? So I guess we just have to wait. Its hard to believe that a guy like Carrol F. Harris would conjure up pure baloney for the Earhart research with such tantalizing recollections but maybe he became influenced by Goerner's thoery. I'm going to pursue for a bit. My guess is Harris saw proposed intelligence opportunities prior to the flight but never implemented. ONI was busy then with what was going on with the Japanese buildup in the mandated islands, so not too far fetched. LTM, Ron Bright ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:39:17 EDT From: Renaud Subject: Re: Lightbulbs As i am writing this, i have, on my desk, a 240 volt and 40 watt lamp bulb which is clearly made of copper. The color, and the smell ( !!! ) make me think definitively that it is copper made. Bayonet setting was common in the 1920's ( different kind of bayonet lamps are shown in an encyclopedia that was printed in 1923 ). One has got a very similar base than the artifact from TIGHAR. From this, it seems to me that a copper made bayonet bulb base in the '30s is not unlikely... LTM ( who has always a bright lamp on her desk )... PS: I forgot this. Could the "seven" marking at the "seven site" be what left of foundations of walls ? Villas from the antic Rome era were discovered in the middle of fields by this way... *********************** Walls? I don't think so. Tom? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:41:37 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Help urgently needed in New Zealand Our search for the bones found on Nikumaroro in 1940 has hit a series of dead ends -- literally dead, in that most of the people involved in the discovery are now precisely that. The documentary record stops in 1941 -- at which time the bones were being held by Dr. D.W. Hoodless of the Central Medical School pending further direction from the High Commissioner. We've heard a couple of times, though, about a John Eric Pery-Johnston, who was the Pathology Laboratory Technician at the time, and who might still be alive, probably in New Zealand. Today I got a letter from Sir Ian Thomson, who was Aide-de-Camp to High Commissioner Sir Harry Luke, and who has particularly urged us to pursue Pery-Johnston as the person most likely to know what happened to the bones. Sir Ian gives us a lot more particulars, to wit: Name: John Eric Pery-Johnston Born 1912 Diploma in Pathology and Bacteriology in the New Zealand State Health Department Married Technician in the Pathology Laboratory in Fiji in 1940-41 A couple of efforts to find Pery-Johnston in New Zealand in the past have failed, but we've never had this much information before. Volunteers???? LTM Tom King ************************************ A call to arms....... We do have at least one member in NZ, the chap who found the file in Tarawa. He is back in NZ writing the book he was doing research for. Peter MacQuarrie. I will dig up his email address for you, Tom. P ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:58:35 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Walls I don't think walls are a likely explanation for the "Seven." In prehistoric times there were walled structures in this part of Oceania, in fact as close as Hull Island, but they're quite visible as such on the surface -- not like buried Roman ruins that can be seen only from the air by the patterns they cause in vegetation growth. The same goes for walled structures built by guano miners in the 19th century -- some of which we recorded on McKean Island. On the other hand, the linearity of the "Seven" is very peculiar, and if the "ceramic" artifact turns out to be part of a prehistoric shell ornament, it could indicate that some kind of prehistoric structure caused the strange vegetation growth. It's certainly worth keeping in mind as a possibility. LTM (who's pretty prehistoric) Tom KIng ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:59:58 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Secret Navy files reveal AE on spy mission to Truk,says ex petty officer When I called Crane to discuss AE stuff, I was aware that they archived all radio message traffic from 1937. I did not inquire about other materials, as I was lead to believe from the Master Sargeant there that all they had was radio message traffic from that era. He may have been wrong about that. There may be some early ONI- related material about radio traffic interceptions from the Japanese, but I doubt seriously that ONI HQ material would be transferred there. One can look at available ONI material to discern whether there is other material (references, etc.) that may be classified, but my perusal of ONI papers indicates that all HQ stuff has been declassified and archived at NARA already. Now, I may be wrong (it has happened it the past, but only according to my wife...). > From Ron Bright > > For Randy Jacobsen, > > Does that mean that we are still waiting declassification of these ONI files > sometime in 2000 ? That's consistant with Weinbergers reply to Goerner. How > does your source know that the classified files contain only navy > radiotelegrams ? So I guess we just have to wait. ..... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:01:16 EDT From: Janice Brown Subject: Re: Help urgently needed in New Zealand I hope you don't mind if I jump in here. I'm new to your forum. I'm enrolled in a continuing education class in Manchester, New Hampshire USA and am doing a research paper on AE. I was born a few years after Amelia died, and knew very little about her story before I began my research. I joined this forum to learn more. I saw your post about the search for John Eric Pery-Johnston. It is an unusual name certainly, so I did a quick internet search. I don't know if the following will be useful to you, but if someone is willing to contact the person below, the name is odd enough that you may discover more information. On an Australia web page listing the winners of a bicycle "Duathlon" I saw (abstract): LOOK Winter Series Duathlon; Race 4 Category Results: Race 4 - September 19 1999 Venue Percival Park, Eagle Farm Brisbane Ladies 25 to 29 Inclusive 15th 13 Karen Pery-Johnston 1:18:24. 0:15:48 14 0:45:10. 14 0:17:25. Enquiries: Ray Event Management Ph: 07 3268 6665 Fax: 07 3268 7002 email: david@rayevent.com.au ---------- I further look in the Australia white pages and found the following: Data Entered: pery-johnston Queensland Capital City Residential Results: Pery-Johnston K 21 Dunella St Sherwood 4075 (07) 3278 4308 ========================= Australia is after all only a few hours away from New Zealand. If someone in your group is willing to contact Karen Pery-Johnston, she may be a relative of the person you are seeking. Janice Brown ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:45:07 EDT From: Janice Brown Subject: Ceramic artifact If you don't mind my posting again to this forum, I was wondering about the artifacts (photo's #5 and #6). On page 110 of "Last Flight" when AE is in Karachi she decribes some of the equipment in the plane and refers to a thermos bottle (she refers to this previously also). It seemed like an item she really liked to carry coffee or hot chocolate for her flights, so she probably would have had it on her last journey. I don't know what materials the internal compartment of a thermos bottle in 1937 was made from, and you probably have already considered this, but I would wonder if it was made of ceramic? Janice Brown **************************** Janice, of course we don't mind you posting! That's sort of the point, actually . Who has the details of the Thermos research we did at their fingertips? Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:45:55 EDT From: Tom King Subject: U.S. News and World Report Apparently we're going to be the partial subjects of a piece in U.S. News and World Report, coming out Monday; they just called me to see if it was OK to call me Tom. Ric and I talked with the writer a month or so ago; I understand that it's a piece on the pursuit of historical mysteries, and we're sharing billing with -- er -- Atlantis. LTM (who thinks THAT's where AE is) Tom King ********************* Thanks for the heads up, Tom. P ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:48:25 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Cabin Window I happened to run across the recent posts about the removal of the cabin window prior to AE/FN's departure from Miami, and I can't recall if anyone may have thought of this, but it dawned on me that when the RTW attempt was being made westbound, an optical window would probably have been necessary in the northern side (starboard) to take sun shots, since the sun would be predominantly on that (north) side of the airplane. With the direction reversed (eastbound), it was no longer necessary to have the window since the sunshots would probably be taken from the port side (still north), and so it was skinned over. The aluminum was probably lighter than glass, and stronger to boot, which would have been added incentives. PS have you heard from Ric? How's the class going? ltm jon ************************ We also speculated that it might be a good idea for the sun not to be streaming into that cabin in the tropics.... but the point of AL being much lighter than glass is an excellent one. I heard from Ric last on Sunday night; he should call me this evening, out of the woods. The course went well, and he was pretty confident of the field school having met everyone. I'll let everyone know tomorrow. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:16:22 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: U.S. News and World Report Say Tom, did they have planes at Atlantis? ;-) Sorry - couldn't help myself. Do you know what the nature of the piece is supposed to be? ltm, jon 2266 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:16:49 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Cabin Windows I recall that part of the discussion, too, but with the sun predominantly visible in the northern hemisphere, it seems to me that it would be streaming in more through the port side windows. I also seem to recall that Ric or someone said something about a curtain. ltm jon 2266 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:17:22 EDT From: Kerry Tiller Subject: Re: U.S. News and World Report Ah, so are you going to make us wait until it hits the news stands to find out if they call you Tom or not? LTM (who could never distinguish my first name from my brothers') Kerry Tiller ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:18:15 EDT From: Clyde Miller Subject: Re: U.S. News and World Report Atlantis? Don't we have enough on our "Plato" already? Clyde Miller (who always believed a city state was an oxymoron) ********************************** Boy, will I be glad when Ric gets back..... Pat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:18:54 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Mystery artifact from the Seven Site I just got off the phone with Nancy Farrell, the archeological shell expert who's examined the semi-tubular fragment of whatever it is from the Seven Site. She says it is definitely NOT shell, and in her opinion is most likely porcelain. She volunteered that it looked to her like a piece of an old-fashioned light fixture. It will be back at TIGHAR Central soon, where it may be interesting to compare its arc with the circumference of the light bulb base. LTM (who sees light at the end of the tunnel) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:19:35 EDT From: Doug Brutlag Subject: Article on Kanton For John D. The article on Kanton that you seek is in the July/August issue of Ocean Navigator, titled "Lonely Beauty" page 42. I apologize if you already have the info. Been out of the country aviating. Just got back this evening and saw your request. Doug B. #2335 *************************** Thanks, Doug, we had not gotten the info yet. P ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:21:51 EDT From: Pat Subject: Fiji Today's Philadelphia Inquirer had a story on Fiji, and a big pic of the (former) P.M., Choudry, reunited with his family. The Great Council of Chiefs has set up a new government and elected a president. The U.S. State Department is strongly urging U.S. citizens to leave Fiji. I don't know where this will all leave the Nai'ads..... LTM, who hates political unrest Pat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:23:13 EDT From: Pat Subject: The Idaho Tales Ric called me last night and everyone is back in Boise, safe and sound and happy and tired from the B-23 survey. All went very well and no one got hurt and everything is great. We're gonna do something like this about once a year, so if you missed this one catch us next time. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:05:52 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: U.S. News and World Report Yes, Kerry, they call me Tom, and no, Jon, I don't have any idea what the piece will be like, and of course they had planes in Atlantis. And spacecraft, and..... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:06:43 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Fiji www.fijilive.com has good up-to-the-minute (well, the day) coverage of events in Fiji. It's certainly a mess, but things are now in the hands of the Great Council of Chiefs, who perhaps will make wise decisions. I don't know about the Nai'ads, but folks at the Museum are pretty depressed. LTM (who prefers Niku) Tom ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:07:51 EDT From: Charles Lim Subject: Curvatures? To Tom King, The latest revelation about the 'ceramic' bit is certainly good news. At least we can now say, with some certainty, that the mystery bit here is man-made. What fragment of which object however will probably remain a mystery. I'm not quite sure what the measurements of those projected circles were, as I have left my notes in England. However I'm sure that there could be a point along the circumfrence of the larger circle, that would be rotated 360 to describe a diameter of an inch thereabouts (This larger circle was projected from the small bit of curvature at the top of the object as seen from the photo6b.jpg). The hard part is actually trying to guess where this would happen along the length of the supposed object, and if this length was indeed long enough to accomodate the bulb that is in Tighar's possesion. With this, you could possibly say that this is part of a light fixture, IF the projected dimesions and curvature correlate with a suspected object, namely the light bulb. LTM Charles Lim (who probably isn't making sense AND doesn't know what he's on about because he's having too much fun) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:55:08 EDT From: Margot Still Subject: Expedition & US News & World Report From I was in the airport in Chicago when I read the US News and World Report article. A few editorial comments leapt to mind but nothing appropriate for the "Letters to the Editor" section. I don't think it was a fair representation of what TIGHAR is all about, let alone who we are. The part about throwing crumbs to the 800+ members was a real winner. I was very disappointed. On the other hand... The Idaho seminar was great. I learned a lot and also learned I know nothing. Everyone worked hard and had a lot of fun. Next time we set up hidden video cameras by the campfire to catch dueling jokes and stories. Anyone who missed out should definitely plan to attend the next one offered. I am especially grateful to everyone who gave me the extra helping hand when I needed it. Thanks guys. I'll overlook you filling up my vest with all that garbage on the way back. Beats me, but I actually miss all you strange people. Stranger still, no one sang "Happy Birthday" to me last night at dinner... LTM (who knows when my birthday REALLY is) MStill #2332CE (finally!) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:59:50 EDT From: John Dipi Subject: Re: secret Navy files I e-mailed Crane IN. I ASKED THEM THAT UNDER FOIA I WAS REQUESTING INFO ON AMELIA EARHART. I DID GET SOME FORMS BACK CAN I GET RANDYS ADDRESS AND I WILL SEND THESE FORMS TO HIM HE PROBABLY KNOWS MORE THAN I DO ABOUT THIS STUFF THESE FORMS ARE DATED JULY 12.200O THEY WANT AN ANSWER IN 30 DAYS ************************************************************************** From Ric Randy, if you'd like to correspond directly with Mr. Dipi his email address is JDipi60523@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:01:17 EDT From: Vern Subject: Re: Curvatures? >From Charles Lim > The latest revelation about the 'ceramic' bit is certainly good news. At >least we can now say, with some certainty, that the mystery bit here is >man-made. What fragment of which object however will probably remain a >mystery... etc. As you guys try to fit that bit of ceramic (possibly) to the lamp base, remember that there will probably have been a metal "shell" (sleeve) inside the socket with "J" slots to engage the two pins on the side of the lamp base. This "shell" will have been of relatively thin material however, to be a free fit, it would add some to the required inside diameter of the ceramic part. The "J" slots could have been molded in the ceramic part (no electrical contact needed) but that's unlikely -- too subject to chipping, etc. I doubt you would find a similar ceramic socket around the house, but check any sizable hardware store. You'll find replacement sockets and some will be ceramic. These will have a brass "shell" inside. Of course, in the states, that will be a threaded "shell" for our screw-in lamps. This will give a pretty fair idea of what the ceramic part of a lamp socket would have been like. You might encounter the "el cheapo" kind of socket that has only a wrinkled up strip of brass in one side to make contact with the threaded lamp base. LTM (Who likes to see an example to quess from) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:02:28 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Curvatures? For Charles Lim: It's interesting that Nancy, looking at the object as a possible shell ornament fragment, and without knowing about the light bulb base, said it looked to her most like a fragment of a porcelain light fixture. I think we're fairly safe in assuming, for the sake of argument anyhow, that it and the light bulb together suggest that somebody had a light on the site. Duh. Now the question is, why? And we're back to the question of "where did they get the power?" Whoever "they" were. LTM (who's lighthearted about all this) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:13:34 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Randy's Riley Response Here is my submission to Naval History in response to Riley's article on the Earhart disappearance. I leave it up to you to post on the forum. Dear Sir or Madam, I am writing this message for "In Contact" regarding the article written by John P. Riley, Jr, in the August, 2000 edition of Naval History. John Riley Jr.'s article on Capt. Warner K. Thompson of the USCG Itasca and the subsequent search for Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan offers some interesting viewpoints: some correct and not articulated before, and others that are patently wrong. He is essentially correct regarding the use of "military service politesse" and the generally one-sided series of Navy/USCG reports regarding the disappearance that are largely self-serving. Riley writes that the Coast Guard stonewalled release of many of the documents, but failed to state the actual reasons: (1) CG regulations (1930 CG Communications Instructions) prohibited the release of any radiotelegrams from civilians without their express consent. Since Earhart was not available to provide such consent, a fair amount of work would be needed to go through all the documents for redaction. Pre-WWII Coast Guard was woefully undermanned and underfunded, and could not afford to properly vet all available documentation at that time. (2) While the reports indicate that Earhart "failed to follow orders" (in reality, radio protocol), this leads to the usual interpretation that release of the documents would sully her reputation. In fact, as Riley points out, it was the Itasca radiomen, more so than Earhart, that failed to follow radio protocol. Nevertheless, these two reasons were likely the cause for both Adm. Waesche and Secretary Morgenthau to be unwilling to release the various documentation under the control of the Coast Guard. Riley writes about the improper usage of 500 kHz radio beacons for direction finding. In fact, there was never any discussion between the CG and Earhart immediately prior to the final flight that either party was to use 500 kHz, either in primary or emergency mode. What was confusing to the Itasca radiomen was that they had documentation that Earhart was going to use 500 kHz on her attempt to land at Howland in March, 1937, but her crash on Luke Field in Hawaii and subsequent repairs to her plane changed the radio protocols to be used. The trailing wire antenna that was to be used for 500 kHz transmissions by Earhart was removed in Burbank during repairs, and neither George Putnam, Earhart's husband, nor the CG were really aware of the removal of this capability. Riley makes an excellent analysis of the Itasca's search patterns, clearly demonstrating many exaggerated claims by Capt. Thompson. However, except for the first afternoon, the ship's position was dictated by Navy (plane guard for aborted PBY flight to Howland) or CG station in San Francisco (amateur radio reports of locations of the downed plane) that caused the Itasca not to make a persistent search of the proper areas. Much of this blame should be put squarely upon Thompson's superiors at the CG station in San Francisco. Riley, as almost every other Earhart research, makes much of the various Howland locations. In fact, the true location was classified "confidential" by the US Hydrographic Office until it's maps could be updated (eventually in 1938 or 1939). The person who actually reported the revised locations to the HO was William Miller, an employee of the Bureau of Air Commerce, and was intimately involved with Earhart's planning of her world flight during the early months of 1937. It is inconceivable that Miller would hold back that information from Earhart, but there is no documentation of her receiving the proper coordinates. Much of Riley's article is devoted to the Howland Island Radio Logs, and the possibility of those logs being bogus. While those logs contain a fair number of discrepancies (as does almost every other Earhart document), most are innocuous. I am much obliged to the author's pointing out that Yau Fai Lum's name is incorrectly spelled on the radio logs, as I failed to catch that in my own research. I have examined both the smooth and rough Howland Logs, located in the National Archives, and neither version contain any handwritten signatures. Examination of the Howland Island diaries of the colonists, also located at the National Archives, and a contemporaneous document, clearly indicates Lum, Lau, and Leong stood nightly radio watches. While the diaries do not mention radioman Cipriani by name, enough contemporaneous documentation by non-USCG personnel exists to document that Cipriani was on Howland from July 1 through July 18. A simpler, better, explanation for the Howland Island Radio Log discrepancies is that Cipriani wouldn't allow civilians to record their observations on official CG logs. Instead, Cipriani probably transcribed the civilian's own notes onto the official logs, and "typed" their (misspelled) names on them as well. While researchers can make many interpretations of Earhart documents and actions, it is only when one collates and examines all pertinent information together that the "real" facts slowly emerge. The disappearance of Earhart was a typical transportation accident, caused by a series of small mistakes, none of which by themselves was catastrophic. The actions of the US government were in good faith, and no conspiracies are evident; in fact, was becomes clear is a fair amount of incompetence on the part of both the US government and Earhart. Unfortunately, there was not something like the NTSB back in 1937 to examine this particular air accident immediately after the loss. Further, the classification of the documentation left too much information beyond the reach of researchers for far too many years. In fact, the amount of documentation retained by the various government organizations is staggering, and is located all over the United States, making collation of such documents hard to undertake. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:32:06 EDT From: Charles Lim Subject: Why a light? For Tom King, I don't know why anyone would put up a light fixture at such a lonely part of Niku. I can't even begin to speculate. It is very odd that even Gallagher might be of need of such equipment at the '7' site of all places. From all the maps and photos I've seen, the remoteness of the site as well as certain weather patterns on Niku would make the site inhospitable. The '7' feature is like nothing I've seen. Why does the vegetation in that particular area grow in that way, when thw rest of the site is covered with scaevola? The presence of the water tank would explain the presence of the bulb, but I would think that if they did work there, they would certainly work during daylight hours only. Then there is nagging question of power sources. Light bulbs consume a lot of energy, so a battery is worthless. They would need to have a generator of some kind. If they did use a generator to provide lighting, why at all in the first place?? LTM Charles Lim (Who is not en-light-ned the slightest bit) *************************************************************************** From Tom Van Hare Lacking power at the location, one wonders if the light was broken and thrown away as garbage -- but even that is a bit strange. Why carry it across the island to throw it out? I somehow cannot picture an islander with a machete cutting his way through the underbrush to find a safe location to dump the broken pieces of his former desk lamp. Or am I mistaken in thinking that the island residents were not settled in that location? Thomas Van Hare ************************************************************************** From Ric The island residents were not settled in that location. As far as I know, we haven't come across any lightbulbs or lamps even up in the settled area. There was once a light on the top of the beacon that marked the landing channel cut through the reef but that's the only lightbulb I know of on the whole island. An electric lamp or light of some kind at the 7 site sure seems strange. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:37:01 EDT From: Charles Lim Subject: Re: curvatures Light Fixtures come a variety of designs. The point that you're trying to make concerns the brass contact inside the ceramic shell. I've seen what you're trying to get at. I'm mystified why such an essential bit of the fixture would not be present in close proximity of the bulb and the 'mystery bit'. I'm also perplexed as to why similar fragments were not found around the same area. The brass contact would have lined the inside of the fixture as you mention, so, by guesswork, it would probably be a cylindrical item, or if it is an el-cheapo version, it would just have a contact snaking from the base. I would like to think that the contact that was used was the cylindrical version, else it is the 'el-cheapo' version. I don't think that 'Empire made' would go for the cheap alternative, any thoughts?? LTM Charles Lim (Who is a bit more expensive than el-cheapo) *************************************************************************** From Ric Remember that a thorough search of the area was not made in 1996. We thought that we had eliminated the site as being something of interest to our investigation and our time was very short. There is almost certainly more stuff there that will shed light (sorry) on what was going one there. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:03:12 EDT From: Ric Subject: U.S. News & World Report The cover story in the current "special double issue" (July 24-31, 2000) of U.S. News & World Report is titled "Mysteries of History" and, although AE's name and photo figure prominently on the first two pages of text (pages 30 & 31) the Earhart disappearance is not one of the 21 mysteries featured in the article. Instead, TIGHAR's work is cited at some length as an example of how real historical investigation is not a breezy hobby but hard, costly, frustrating, and sometimes dangerous work. (Note: I did NOT "lose my corneas to equatorial sunlight" as the article says. A dog would be typing this if I did. The UV's out there DID cook the lenses in both of my eyes causing cataracts. I now have intra-ocular plastic implants and I see better than ever.) Tom King and I are quoted fairly accurately. I think that, overall, it's good exposure for the organization and the project. The most interesting aspect of the piece (to me) is the place the Earhart disappearance is accorded in the pantheon of historical mysteries. It's the defining example, literally too big or too well-known to cover. Not bad. Call it market penetration. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:48:23 EDT From: Frank Westlake Subject: The Seven Site Putting the seemingly unrelated pieces together in a way that they DO relate, I wonder if there could be steam venting around the Seven Site. If so, here's how the pieces may be related: - Nikumaroro is near, if not in, an area of high geologic activity. In the first four months of this year the islands of Fiji, Tonga, Vanuatu, and Santa Cruz experienced 48 quakes between mag 4.1 and 7.1. I don't have any data outside of that four month window because one of my hard drive controllers failed during a move. Isn't Niku a volcanic atoll? I can't think of how else it would've been created. - Both steam and elevated levels of CO2 will kill plants and coral. - Steam wells are often dug to generate electricity. This would certainly explain the lamp but it seems like a rather large project for such a small settlement. - Was the "water collection device" found near the Seven Site? If so then perhaps they were making a steam bath :) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:49:12 EDT From: Frank Westlake Subject: Re: U.S. News & World Report > From Ric > > The cover story in the current "special double issue" > (July 24-31, 2000) of U.S. News & World Report is titled > "Mysteries of History" and... The article can be found online at: Frank Westlake ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:52:47 EDT From: Christian D Subject: Re: Why a light? Basically we can just speculate a lot. We need to find many more artifacts at the Seven to build a better picture... Even though we haven't yet found testimony from the Coasties that they remember using the place, I would find it hard to believe that they never set up a picnic site somewhere. If I remember correctly, the Loran station was bulldozed wide open, and the trade winds must have been blowing tru it relentlessly; the beach in the area has constant pounding surf... They had a launch and a small dock, on the Lagoon side, the Seven was the narrowest land nearby, so seems a dandy place to cross from the lagoon, to set up a beach picnic site. Certainly the Loran personel had access to all kinds of materiel and generators, and must have been very bored. They weren't allowed to the village, so would want a R+R site closer. Might have reused the site of "Irish" with a tank. Might have set up a couple of lights with screw bases... In the early sixties a Brit from the village might have wanted to reuse the old picnic site, and brought a bulb, not realizing his baionet style bulb wouldn't fit... If there was indeed one style of bulb, there could have been the 2 styles in use at different times. Isn't turtle hunting done at nite too? All kinds of possibilities... Time to dig! My 2cts... Christian D. *************************************************************************** From Ric Yes, turtle hunting is done at night. Hmmmm. But you'd need a portable light. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:56:54 EDT From: Michael Holt Subject: Re: Curvatures? The object is definitely not a part of the airplane? Michael Holt ************************************************************************* From Ric I don't think we can say it is definitely not part of an airplane but it seems rather unlikely at this point. Also, if our hypothesis is correct about where the landing was made versus where the bones were found, I wouldn't expect to find airplane parts at the Seven Site unless it was something salvaged from the airplane for survival purposes. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:08:31 EDT From: Vern Subject: Re: Why a light? Ric wrote: >There was once a light on the top of the beacon that marked the landing >channel cut through the reef but that's the only lightbulb I know of on the >whole island. I wonder how that was powered? Battery power and used only for short times? ************************************************************************** From Ric We have a photo taken in 1963 that shows a wire running from the top of the beacon to a pole sticking up from a hut that then stood in front of the Co-Op Store (maybe 15 meters away). The wire went down into the hut. My guess would be a battery and the light was used only when somebody needed to get ashore in the dark. Come to think of it, the light at the Seven Site may have served a similar purpose. That coastline all looks pretty much alike from the lagoon and trying to find that place in the evening would be next to impossible without something to guide on. Just a thought. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:27:15 EDT From: Doug Brutlag Subject: Fred Noonan Just recently I got a phonecall from a Mr. Mark Farmer. He saw the picture of my (formerly intact) AT-7 in Flying magazine and read the short about celestial navigation training. He is a retired navigator who started his career with Pan Am and flew the M-130's & B314 China Clippers. He sent me a courtesy copy of his book "Flight To Anywhere" telling of his exploits as a professional flight navigator. Not only is this book interesting reading, but it contains a brief story on Fred Noonan. Although he never knew Fred personally, he writes" Pan American's first navigator back in 1935 had been a man named Fred Noonan. I was told by those who knew him that being first, he did more or less as he pleased. He was lax about taking deviation checks on the compasses, carelessness that would be distastrous if you were depending on dead reckoning alone for a landfall. To start a long flight with undetected compass error is pure folly. We always figured that was what happened to Amelia Earhart who vanished during her round the world flight in 1937. Fred Noonan was her navigator. Earhart & Noonan had another strike against them. Prior to WWII, there were hundreds of islands in the south pacific which had no economic value to the rest of the world. Pilots were still flying by marine charts, and these charts were plotted so ships could avoid running into islands(SS Norwich city fame), not because anyone wanted to find them. Some were as much as 20 miles from where they were depicted in the charts. I wonder if FN checked the actual position of Howland island, Earhart's destination when they disappeared". I am going to have phone conversation with him sometime to talk navigation. I'll ask him if he would be willing to interview with you about FN specifically if you like. Doug Brutlag ************************************************************************** From Ric Interesting. Mr. Farmer's recollections provide some insight into Pan Am scuttlebut about Fred post-mortem. It will interesting to see if he says anything about the drinking thing. TIGHAR member, former USAF navigator, and Earhart Project instigator Tom Gannon remembers his navigation instruction in 1943 cautioning the class how important it is to turn the correct way on the line of position "or you could end up like Fred Noonan." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:45:56 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: The Seven Site The idea of steam venting being responsible for things like the Seven clearing and the marks on the reef is intriguing, but I'm not aware of anything resembling a steam vent anywhere on Niku. We don't really know much about the underlying geology of the island (i.e. below the coral), but presumably there's a subsiding volcano down there somewhere. Christian's point about the Coasties makes a good deal of sense, too, since the windward side is a pretty pleasant place, in the face of the trade winds; nice place to picnic. On the other hand, however, we can be pretty sure that the tank on the Seven Site came from the village, given its attribution to the Tarawa Police Department, and the airphotos certainly suggest that this is the area that Laxton described as having been cleared and made the site of the house built for Gallagher -- which could hardly have been done by the Coasties. Multiple uses of the site are certainly possible, though. Tom King *************************************************************************** From Ric The windward side a pleasant place? If you say so. Blazing sun, deafening surf, constant buffeting wind. If I was going to pick a place to picnic on Niku it would be on the opposite side of the island in the shade along the lagoon shore where the breeze comes across the lagoon. None of the Niku CG veterans I've talked to mentioned anything about picnics. After a little initial exploration they quickly settled into a routine of standing their watches and vegging out with a hammock and a beer. What the windward side beach has going for it is a view of the northern horizon from whence a ship might be spotted, if that's you're idea of a good time. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:39:13 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: The Seven Site Well, I haven't been on the windward side since '89, but I remember it as being quite nice then -- on the beach, where you're facing right into the trade winds. Back in the Scaevola is doubtless another matter altogether. But if you're living at the nearby Loran station, I should think the windward beach (where there is, after all, a beach, as opposed to the situation along much of the lee side) would be a pretty attractive place to hang out. LTM (who fondly remembers the thousands of flip-flops that had floated up on the beach in '89, too) Tom King ************************************************************************** From Ric Picnics or no, we do have ample evidence (anecdotal and physical in the form of spent cartridges) that the Coasties went over there. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:59:35 EDT From: Charles Lim Subject: Re: The Seven Site If the seven site is of any use to anyone on Niku it must have had some purpose or meaning for it to be manned. This is my theory, that the site had some kind of practical value for the residents. Whatever that purpose was, (as suggested by Ric as a lookout for ships on the horizon) the ability of the manned area to function would be impaired at night. The neccesity of placing a light on that part of the island could possibly be to warn ships of their proximity to Niku. We have the SS Norwich City as an unfortunate victim of not spotting the island at full steam, so why would any other ship in that era be any safer? This is just and idea though, there is far more debris on Niku for anyone to just pick up and speculate even if it was just a 'rubbish dump' as someone suggested. Perhaps even, maritime navagation had advanced to avoid such a repeat of the disaster. LTM Charles Lim *************************************************************************** From Ric You may have misunderstood my remark about watching for ships. I was thinking of the castaway, not the villagers. They weren't hoping and watching for a rescue ship. Their administrative ships showed up whenever they showed up. There's no indication that any vigil was kept. There is also no sign of colonist activity at the Seven Site until after Gallagher finds the bones and is ordered to make an organized search. There is also no reference to the site in Gallagher's official status reports even though we know there was activity there during his tenure - thus reinforcing the notion that the site and the work being done there was related to a confidential matter (i.e. the bones). As far as the lightbulb functioning as some kind of mini-lighthouse to keep ships from running aground, there's no indication in any of the literature that anyone was concerned about that. Besides, if the light was used where it was found (near the tank) it couldn't be seen from the ocean anyway. Only the lagoon. (See the Research Bulletin at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/Bulletins/23_SevenSite/23_SevenSite.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:01:53 EDT From: Cam Warren Subject: Re: Why a Light? The light for night navigation? A well established precedent. The Mayans, at coastal Tulum, employed a system where slot windows in two parallel walls, plus a flaming torch inside the innermost chamber, provided a precise alignment for returning fishermen to negotiate the narrow reef opening after dark. Cam Warren ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:04:00 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: The Seven Site Niku is geologically inactive, and there has been no seismicity recorded historically within a couple hundred miles of Niku. There are no geothermal hot springs. While the island has a volcanic core, the age of the core is estimated to be at least 30 million years old, and the uppermost 0.5km or so is likely coral. See any geology text book on coral atolls for information on how they develop. BTW, it was Charles Darwin who first understood how they developed. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:16:35 EDT From: Ric Subject: Jerry Anne's button Jerry Anne Jurenka was kind enough to send me the button she found in her sewing box which looked similar to Artifact 2-3-W-5. At 2 cm in diameter it's a bit larger than the Niku button which is 1.5 cm across. It's dark green rather than dark reddish brown. There are some subtle differences in shape. Jerry's button has a slightly convex face inside the raised rim while the Niku button does not. Jerry's button also has an elevated portion around the holes on the back that is not present on the Niku button. Jerry's button is smooth, shiny and has a plastic look to it, while the Niku button is flat in color and texture - but that could be due to weathering. Jerry's button looks very similar to some WWII-vintage military buttons I saw at a small museum in Idaho last week. Good for comparison. Thanks Jerry Anne! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:42:57 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Why a Light? For what it's worth, at the moment I speculate that the electric lamp was somehow associated with the water tank (which came from the village), and was used with a battery for very short periods of illumination in the early evening. Taken with the roofing material, to me, the most likely reason for the presence of these artifacts is that the settlement had established some sort of dwelling or base there. It certainly sounds like it's probably the site of "Gallagher's House" on that side of the island. I'm much more curious to know why, exactly, Gallagher (whose life I find at least as interesting as Earhart's) had a "house" in the vicinity, and what he used it for. Was he so interested in the castaway stories that he literally lived on the seven site for an extended time, digging for more evidence (with a corresponding loss to the time he could spend helping the Gilbertese develop their colony, which was his mission on Gardner)? More realistically (and only mentioning possibilities), I suppose he could have spent at least 1 or 2 days a week at the site for several weeks. What was it about this site that might have been attractive to a castaway in the years before the settlement was established? And did Gallagher really spend significant time there looking for evidence of Earhart's presence? william 2243 *************************************************************************** From Ric I can see Irish, a pilot himself, really getting turned on by the mystery of the castaway and the possibility that he could be "the man who found Amelia Earhart." The discovery of the bones has already brought him into direct communication with his highest superiors who have ordered an "organized search." Carrying out that search is not a dereliction of his duty to develop the colony but rather a mandated mission. The site is relatively remote from the village and the weather, in November 1940, is getting a bit iffy. I can easily see him having a semi-permanent shelter built on site that was later (post-Laxton) salvaged by the villagers, leaving the detritus that we found. Why would a castaway pick that spot? It's the only place on the island where you can have easy access to both the ocean and lagoon shores and still have the shade of tall trees. We have no way of knowing how much time Gallagher spent looking for remains. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:55:54 EDT From: David Osgood Subject: Storm Action Is it possible that the artifacts found at the seven site (or elsewhere on Niku) were deposited by storm and wind action? Tom King states that he, "remembers the thousands of flip-flops that had floated up on the beach in '89," so I could imagine under the right circumstances, materiel from the ocean migrating beyond the shore line. It sounds like a similar concept is the current hypothesis for airplane debris, in that storm and tidal action may have moved heavy and non-buoyant objects relatively far from the reef flat to inside the lagoon. It seems as though the narrow and flat topography of the seven site would also aid the forces of nature with the distribution of solid matter from the reef and beach. David B. Osgood ************************************************************************** From Ric In our experience, flotsam from the ocean side of the island does not wash very far (about 20 meters max) into the dense beachfront vegetation even in major weather events. Airplane wreckage washing in through the lagoon passage is a very different matter. We also see no evidence of overwash at the Seven Site and the artifacts we found there seem to be the result of intentional placement rather than random distribution. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:15:49 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Why a Light? William, when I get home (I'm on the road for awhile) I'll send you a copy of a paper I've written about Gallagher that you may find interesting (nothing about Amelia, however, and it doesn't do a thing to explain what he might have been doing on the SE end of the island). The idea of his spending time there by himself looking for the bones, as Ric points out, isn't at all outlandish, and it seems particularly imaginable in light of the discard of the inverting eyepiece. I can imagine him thinking "This is becoming a bloody circus; I'm going to send everybody home and concentrate on this myself!" Whereupon the need for a camp of some kind becomes pretty apparent. I also wonder -- all speculation -- if a light might have been useful for close scanning of the ground under different and perhaps more favorable light conditions than one could get during the daytime. The tropical sun pretty well bleaches things out on the white coral during the daytime, and there might be some advantages in doing nighttime scans by electricity. A pretty sophisticated idea for Gallagher to have come up with, though; as I recall, though the British were pioneers in identifying archeological sites by observing things like faint shadows under different light conditions (in aerial photography), this didn't really start happening until after WWII. Still, it's something to consider -- and to think about in planning our own search operations. TK *************************************************************************** From Ric For once I agree with Tom. I can see Gallagher taking a very personal interest in this and feeling a lot of pressure to not screw it up. I can also see the Gilbertese being less than thrilled about searching for more bones and digging up the skull. (Remember Emily's comment that her father "had to look at the bones.") Gallagher may easily have said to himself, "Look, I just can't count on these guys to tell me about anything they find. I'll just have to do it myself." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:19:11 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Storm Action The flipflops were all in the rather active beach area, never farther up than the vegetation line and usually nowhere near that far. I wasn't there in '91, but as I recall, people reported that they'd all flopped away by that time. It's certainly not inconceivable that a piece of clothing with a button on it could get washed up onto the site, but if so, it's a pretty funny coincidence, considering all the other oddments that are there. TK ************************************************************************** From Ric I s'pect that one you have a chance to stand on the site you'll agree with me that there is almost no way that a piece of clothing could make it past all that vegetation to get washed to the place where the button was found. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:24:08 EDT From: Kenton Spading Subject: Gallagher's 7-site House, Why build it? William Webster/Garman wrote: >>I'm much more curious to know why, exactly, Gallagher (whose life I find at least as interesting as Earhart's) had a "house" in the vicinity [of the 7 site], and what he used it for.>> Of course no one can say exactly why a house was built near the 7 site. I offer the following speculative (and some of it factual) food for thought. Gallagher died of complications related to malnutrition and exhaustion. He more or less worked himself to death. Complications included the walls of his intestines becoming very thin (it seems he was rotting from the inside out). To get himself into this state, and then die as quickly as he did, he had to work at it for a while. So, I speculate he was already feeling rotten (pun intended) by the time he left the island in May of 1941 (5 months before he died). His condition was undoubtably not helped by the hot weather and lack of any consistent breeze over in the village area on the lee side of the island. The natives, who were very fond of Gallagher and most certainly concerned about him, hit on an idea....lets build a house for Gallagher over on the windward side where he could recuperate in a cooler environment. A house set back in the trees a bit away from the surf where the cooling tradewinds could blow through might be appealing to someone raised in the windy British Isles. Gallagher is going to feel very much at home in a windy enviroment. It would certainly be more like home than the village area. I envision a house with a few natives to look after the master. Transportation would be no big deal. Send the 4-man canoe over every morning and back again at night. Gallagher's death cannot be viewed as a one or two day (or weeks) ordeal. He was hurting for a longer length of time than that before he died. Any speculation about activities related to Gallagher in the period prior to his death (at least 6 months if not much longer) need to consider his deteriorating health. I am speculating that the house built for Gallagher could have been motivated by his health problems. I offer this as an alternative to the theory that the house was built and the site cleared as a result of the bones search. Certainly both theories have pros and cons and they could be related. For example, In the process of building the house, they might have found the bones. That is more logical (I think) than finding the bones and then building a bunch of infrastruture to support the search industry. I am going to post some additional thoughts that I have on the 7-site in a separate posting to avoid having this email get too long. LTM Kenton Spading ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:55:37 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Why a Light? Thanks Tom, I would sincerely enjoy reading the paper you've written about Gallagher. Actually, I've never thought it outlandish to think that Gallagher might have spent time out on the SE end of the island on his own looking for Earhart evidence. Rather, I was curious to hear a synopsis of the factors that might make us comfortable considering the possibility that he did. My impressions, from reading his messages to his superiors, is that he probably was interested, on a personal level, in the site where the castaway bones were originally found and was at some point almost certain that Earhart and Noonan had been on Gardner. Ric's latest comments about this contain what I think may be a good point: Given what we know about the colonists' reticence (for whatever, probably cultural) to even discuss the topic with Gallagher, maybe it's understandable that he ultimately continued his search alone. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:56:38 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Gallagher's 7-site House, Why build it? One thing that makes Kenton's hypothesis attractive is the roll of tar paper, which (maybe) suggests that (a) they were thinking of a fairly substantial structure and (b) they didn't finish building it. If they built it while he was away in Fiji, but weren't quite finished when he got back and died...... As Kenton says, both hypotheses have merit, and we can't prove either one without more work, but it's good to have alternatives to consider. TK ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 11:05:55 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Gallagher article For Christian and anybody else who's interested in Gallagher -- attached as promised is a paper I've been working on, with help and advice from Phil Tanner and Vern Klein, about Gallagher and the PISS, above and beyond the Earhart connection. We're hoping to find a journal to publish it in the U.K., partly as a device to generate interest that might lead us to Gallagher's missing effects, including his photographs. But it's also just a pretty good story, I think. LTM (who greatly admires Gallagher and bemoans his untimely demise) Tom King *************************************************************************** From Ric Unforunately, the Listserve software that distributes the forum won't accept attached files, but with Tom's permission we'll be happy to put his paper up on the TIGHAR website along with some appropriate photos. How say ye Herr Doktor? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 11:07:08 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Why a Light? Whoops, I'm sorry; it was William Webster-Garman, not Christian, who expressed beyond-Amelia interest in Gallagher. Can the list manager please correct my transmittal? Thanks TK ************************************************************************** From Ric So corrected. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 11:12:21 EDT From: Monty Fowler Subject: Smithsonian's Electra While in Washington last week for a grants workshop, I was able to slip away (OK, I ditched the afternoon session) to the National Air and Space Museum. Naturally, I made a beeline to the "Pioneers of Flight" exhibit to see what of AE's was on display. There is quite a bit, but front and center is a model of a certain Electra 10-E we're all interested in. What interested me was what was NOT on it. With the Smithsonian's mania for accuracy, this otherwise fine model was missing numerous small details, mainly antennas, antenna wires and pitot tubes, but most noticeable was the lack of the large areas of orange trim that we know AE's Electra had on the final flight. No one at the museum I talked to had a ready answer for this somewhat major oversight, but it does make you wonder what else the "experts" miss on occasion. LTM, Monty Fowler, No. 2189. P.S. - Also on display was a leather flight jacket worn by AE. Only one thing was missing - a small, brownish, button........just kidding! *************************************************************************** From Ric Don't get me started about NASM. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 11:42:43 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Gallagher's 7-site House, Why build it? Kenton Spading wrote: <> Just for the curiousity of at the least, me, regarding this interesting chapter of the overall story: Could you please elucidate: How malnutrition? Was he living out of canned foods? Did he not share in the native diet, which was by the way based on what, besides fish? Probably the Niku natives relied on rice for their main carbohydrate? Worked himself to death? I could understand this in the context of one being a slave on a sugar plantation or in a mine. But i don't understand how overwork in Gallagher's context could have been unhealthful, or possible, except in the way of being out of reach of medical help in case of emergency. On the islands, limitations on electric power had to limit working hours, one would think. Being relatively ignorant of the realities of island life, i would even tend to think of it as a health-building life, with plenty of fresh air and excersize, and freedom from what we think of as typical workday stressors: commute, crowding, bad air, multiple demands on time, ringing phones, unwanted information, noise, social pressures. Altho Gallagher was far from a plantation aristocrat, one might think there were some material and psychic rewards to his position in a benevolent colonial hierarchy. Hue Miller *************************************************************************** From Ric Hue raises a good point that invites some clearing up of possible misconceptions about the nature of life in the PISS. We ain't talking Blue Lagoon here. Niku was not then, and is not now, an inherently "healthy" environment for anyone trying to work there. The diet of everyone on Gardner in the early days seems to have consisted primarily of canned food supplemented by locally caught fish, turtles, and perhaps even birds. Rice is unknown in Micronesia. Pits for the cultivation of taro (known locally as "babai") seem to have been a later development. Poor health of the settlers from the unbalanced and culturally foreign diet was a concern in the early years. From Dr. MacPherson's post-mortem report it seems that Gallagher's main problem was that he simply refused to take care of himself. He developed tropical ulcers on his legs while living on Sydney (probably from injuries sustained on the coral reef) and only sought treatment when they had become incapacitating. He had dental problems that he never did get fixed, even when he was working in Suva. He persisted in self-medicating his digestive ailments with purgatives and other home remedies in spite of MacPherson's warnings. Gallagher was a strange duck by any measure. Eric Bevingtoin described him as the "most Christ-like man" he had ever known and perhaps that comment provides a key to understanding his utter (and ultimately self-destructive) devotion to the people of the PISS. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 12:00:09 EDT From: Ric Subject: Button update Here's the latest on Artifact 2-3-W-5 (the button). Archaeologist James Matthews of Fort Walton Beach, Florida has examined the artifact and submitted a preliminary written report which draws the following conclusions: "The specimen (2-3-W-5) is a medium sized button of composite material, probably bakelite, of simple design. Bakelite buttons were first produced in 1909 and are still common at the present time. This specimen is moderately weathered and pitted on both sides. The source of the weathering may have been due to exposure in a dune or beach environment at some time or due to natural decomposition. Am still trying to locate similar wind and wave worn small items for comparison. A portion of the specimen also has a dark stain that could be charring from limited exposure to flame or from organic origins. To date, I have not been able to identify the time period or manufacturer from the sources at hand; however, am gathering other sources and will check them." Through the good offices of our Forensic Anthropologist, Dr. Kar Burns, we are corresponding with Dr. Everett Solomons, the toxicoligist at the crime lab of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, who has been kind enough to take an interest in the case. Our hope is that the lab can shed more light on the stain. Dr. Solomon writes: "This is an intriguing problem. I am a toxicologist and will need to determine if some of my other forensic colleagues will take an interest in this. Our serologists would be required to assist in determining if the stains are human or animal - possibly a very difficult task at this point. My area and thought was to provide elemental analysis to compare to another button considered to be very similar in nature - such a button for comparison probably does not exist. At any rate I will study the problem and see if there is anything I/we can offer." LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:10:36 EDT From: Christian D Subject: Tarpaper What I find the most puzzling about a ROLL of tar paper, is that it would have been left behind.... At first glance, it should be a very valuable item to the islanders!?!? Although it doesn't look like it is in much use nowadays... Thatch is still much used,so might have been prefered at the time. I guess tar paper needs very expensive support, like planks! Black paper would have been extremely hot too.... And not too good for rain water collection... I'm still intrigued that it was the only valuable item left -or forgotten, when everybody left in 1963... By the way: I too am quite interested by Tom's paper re PISS and Gallaghar. Cheers. Christian D. *************************************************************************** From Ric It is not the case that the small unused roll of tarpaper at the Seven site was the "only valuable item left -or forgotten, when everybody left in 1963..." Lots of stuff - steel cable, creosoted poles, etc., etc. was left up in the village. What is odd is that tarpaper - specificaly tarpaper with green shingle material on one side - is not something we see around the village or anywhere else on the island. ************************************************************************* From Christian D: Just thinking: the North American way of building houses with "matchsticks and nails" is quite specific to this locale. I don't remember seeing too much of it when I was growing up in Europe... Do we know for a fact that it was in use in that British Colony at the time? Sawn lumber might have been too valuable to use to support tarpaper, when gilbertese were so skilled with thatch... If I had to bet 2 cents, I'd vote for an origin at the Loran station... Just a thought... Chrisitan D. PS: if I remember correctly from last year, there is pretty well NO SCRAPS of tarpaper to be found around the Seven, which to me seems to indicate that no tarpaper covered building was ever erected there. If it had been, there should be lots of papered rotting boards left on the ground. AND: if the building had been salvaged, it would be very strange that a CLEAN (not punctured with nails) roll of paper would have been overlooked! Could the boards themselves have been salvaged, without a multitude of tarpaper bits littering the place? Or: may be there WAS a building, but it was never covered with paper, and that darn roll is just a misleading useless cue... Some Coastie's project, at another time, which was never built? We have to remember that the Seven was a real nice access to that beach, and must have been in use ( at least on and off ) for a quarter of a century, by different groups of people. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:13:43 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Pery-Johnston To: Janice (the source of the Info on the Australian Pery-Johnstons), Denise (In Brisbane who contacted Rachael at the same time as I did), Ric and The Forum, I followed up on Janices info on Karen Pery-Johnston. Karen is in Canada at the moment. I spoke to Rachael, her sister. John Eric Pery-Johnston was their Grandfather and died 17 years ago. His widow is in her 90's, and though I think Rachael may ask her some questions I don't know how her (the grandmother's) memory is - we'll see what Rachael decides. Rachael Pery-Johnston is a charming person and we had a delightful chat in which I tried to briefly explain TIGHAR and the objects of the organisation and the story of the bones. (Me? Briefly?? lol) I spoke to Rachael as she was getting ready to visit her father (John Eric Pery-Johnston's son). He was born in 1944, and lived over there (Fiji) until 1954. So he probably won't know much about the bones. However, Rachael is also going to check for journals, diaries, letters etc. I have invited her to join the forum, and visit the web site, as the subject seems to interest her - especially as the family may have been involved in the mystery to some extent. Anyway, that's all the news for now. Denise (from Brisbane) may have more to add. Regards, Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:17:10 EDT From: Dan Postellon Subject: Palmyra For those of you who listen to National Public Radio, they are running one of their radio expeditions to Palmyra Atoll. You can listen to it at using the search word Palmyra, if you have Real Audio. Palymyra seem to be wetter than Nikumaroro. This may not be directly related, but it can give you a feel for finding an atoll and landing a plane on an unimproved airstrip in the Pacific. Dan Postellon Tighar 2263 LTM (Who would buy Palmyra if she had the money.) ************************************************************************** From Ric If they mention the wrecked Lockheed beside the runway don't get excited. It's a Lodestar (Model 18) that took an excursion into the trees when trying to land at night with a bunch of ham radio enthusiasts aboard. We have lots of pictures. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:23:36 EDT From: Hugh Graham Subject: Re: Smithsonian's Electra Monty Fowler wrote: > With the Smithsonian's mania > for accuracy, this otherwise fine model was missing numerous small > details, mainly antennas, antenna wires and pitot tubes, but most > noticeable was the lack of the large areas of orange trim that we know > AE's Electra had on the final flight. -----I believe this Electra is in fact the single pressurized XC-35 research aircraft which was powered by Pratt&Whitney R1340 Turbo-supercharged engines, rather than just Supercharged R1340's as on AE's L10E. This Electra was possibly the first Turbo to fly and was used by the US army to experience high-altitude flying with these features, which may explain the lack of pitot tubes and antennae. LTM(who is pressurized also), HAG 2201. *************************************************************************** From Ric I think Monty is talking about the little model of NR16020 that is displayed "downtown" as part of the main Earhart exhibit. It's simply a poor model. The XC-35 (last time I saw it) is in storage at the Garber Facility (aka Silver Hill), dust-covered, tucked back in a corner with the wings removed. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:43:48 EDT From: Bill Carter Subject: Re: tarpaper Is it possible that the tarpaper is a leftover from the Loran station? This roll seems more like an item that the coasties would regard as having no value and simply discard. It's also a building material more typically associated with western construction as opposed to thatch. Given that there appears to be only one roll (if it really is the only one on the island and I have no reason to doubt that it is) one roll probably isn't enough to cover the roof of a structure such as a house. Ric, did you collect a sample or unroll the tarpaper? Perhaps it has markings on the back side or a manufacturers name that would help to identify its origin and age. LTM Bill Carter *************************************************************** From Ric I can't say that it's the only roll on the island. We haven't seen any up in the village. There could be tons of the stuff at the Loran station. It's so grown up to scaevola down here that we've never really explored the area in any detail. Most of the Coast Guard buildings were quonset huts with metal roofs but there were also some frame additions that could have used this kind of stuff as roofing material. The roll we found at the Seven site measures three feet long and the roll is now squashed flat, about one foot across. If I had to guess, I'd say that there might be as many as a dozen "layers", so that would be a sheet 12 feet by 3 feet. Like you say, not enough to roof a house. Maybe enough for a little shelter. I didn't pick it up but I would guess that the roll probably weighs fifty pounds anyway - not something you'd tote around for the fun of it. I remember looking for, but not seeing, any markings on the back. I did not collect a sample. What's it doing there? All of the other "construction" materials at the site (copper screening, the water tank, the sheet of asbestos) are fairly common in the village. It's hard not to think that the tarpaper is not also from there. I agree that it's a western material and that may be why it was not salvaged. If the Coasties had built a "beach house" over there I have to think that we would have heard about it before now. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:19:48 EDT From: Angelo Campanella Subject: 7500 kHz ADF non-result at 19hr:33 into the flight After some more reflection on the status quo existing at the time she was near the Itasca and trying localize via the ADF, I pose the following question: Was the ADF working electrically, but he polarization of the 7500 wave arriving at her aircraft inadequate to the task of signifying the direction of the Itasca. Some radio physics: For very low radio frequencies or long waves (e.g 500 kilohertz where most of the customs, practices and capabilities of ADF were previously established), the electrical polarization is customarily vertical (vertical antenna wires) and correspondingly the magnetic wave polarization, being at right angles to the electric wave, is horizontal. It is this horizontal magnetic wave polarization feature that is relied upon to effect the renowned "null". When the plane of a DF loop is set perpendiular to that magnetic polarization, all the magnetic field passes through the loop area and a maximum of radio signal is heard. When the plane of that loop is set to be parallel to that polarized wave, no signal is to be heard, i.e. a "null" occurs. At intermediate distances, where the "ground wave" weakens and the effect of the ionosphere is not great, the wave will maintain its vertical electric polarization/horizonal magnetic polarization. At long distances day or nigt, it may become weakened and be accompanied by some noise, but its polarization remains relatively pure, and DF results are still useful. At higher frequencies or shorter waves, and especially above about 1500 kilohertz (i.e. above the AM broadcast band), interaction with the ionosphere after sunrise can be substantial, causing phase of the wave reflected from the ionosphere ("sky wave") to be shifted, and whose polarization may be more complex, possibly elliptical or even circular. Furthermore, a practical antenna that emits a wave of pure polarization is more difficult to construct on board ship, so that the likelihood of a purely vertical electric and horizontal magnetic wave having been emitted by the Itasca that July 1-2 1937 day is questionable in my opinion. The Itasca boradcast wave quality appears to not have been tested to be proved of good horizontal magnetic polarization (i.e. free of eliptical components). The likelihood that a wave of pure horizontal magnetic polarization (required to be able to create a null with an RDF look on a distant aircraft) had arrived at the Electra at its contact distance at the 19:33Z moment is and was remote. That is, Itasca 7500 kHz antenna non-verticality plus the mixture of sky plus ground waves that arrived at the contact distance (probably 40+-20 miles at that moment) made the expected ADF reception scenario to be what actually happened; "unable to get a minimum" (a minimum is the next best thing to a null, if a null is not possible). Thus, it is conceivable that Amelia never had a chance to localize at the distance she and Fred placed themselves from the Itasca that day with the 7500 kHz apparatus chosen for the flight, even given that it all worked perfectly. Has any one researched this radio physics conundrum to determine whether the facts are as I have postulated them? Angelo Campanella ************************************************************************** From Ric As Cam Warren delights in pointing out, my radio expertise is roughly on a par with the late Ms. Earhart's so I'll have to leave it to others to answer your question. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:23:18 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: tarpaper The more I follow the discussion on the "tarpaper" the more I think it ain't. What you seem to be descriping is roll roofing material, I believe it comes in 24" and 30" rolls, what you most recently referred to as "long", has a granular material, the same as the wearing surface on shingles, on one face and an asphalt impregnated fiber which appears on the other face when unrolled. Roll roofing is commonly used on barns and other buildings because it installs so much faster that individual shingles. Tarpaper is sometimes placed underneath, but not always, depends on local building codes if any. Doubt that Niku has or had a building inspector, and the coasties certainly didn't. Still doesn't account for the coasties dragging it to the "7" site though, one roll isn't enough to do much and it is heavy. One roll might cover a small shelter for one person, Galagher, but where would it have come from? If it came from the British, I would think you would have found lots of remants in the Village, it doesn't deteriorate much. If it came from the Coasties, you should find remants at their site. ************************************************************************** From Ric You're right. We've apparently been using the wrong term. Forget "tarpaper." "Roll roofing" it is. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:24:41 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Gallagher article Fine to put the paper up on the website. tK ************************************************************************* From Ric Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:29:06 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: tarpaper Ric wrote, "there were also some [Coastie] frame additions that could have used this kind of stuff as roofing material" The US Military put up a lot of "quick and spartan" wood frame construction during that war. Does anybody know if they commonly used pre-shingled green tar paper (by the trainload)?. On the other hand, most of the other artifacts in the vicinity of the "seven" site seem associated with the village: It seems a little more likely that it came from there. Do the copper screening and sheet of asbestos look like they were ever part of something, or do they appear to never have been used? william 2243 ************************************************************************* From Ric The copper screening was just a few scraps and the sheet of asbestos looked like a broken piece. There was also one shard from a broken porcelain plate but not the rest of the plate. The whole place had the appearance of having been not quite completely cleaned out of whatever was once there. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:13:42 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Pery-Johnston Good work, Wombat! Here's hoping this leads someplace, but at least I can tell Sir Ian Thomson that we've followed up on his suggestion. TK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:16:54 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: tarpaper The same type of rolled asphalt used to frequently be used as siding in the "poorer" parts of town, as well - generally with a pattern designed to look like brick. I think there are still some old houses out here that have that kind of siding. Just a thought about the copper screening - I seem to recall that you said it was a fine mesh (as opposed to something like hardware cloth). Isn't copper mesh frequently used as filtering screens in pumps, etc? Could this have something to do with the water tank? Depending upon the collection system to be used, I wonder if a nice asphalt roof over the water tank, draining into a collection system and hence into the tank might also be possible. Maybe something held up by poles? ltm jon 2266 *************************************************************************** From Ric Possible - but it does appear that whatever the "roll roofing" was intended for never happened. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:19:52 EDT From: richard Lund Subject: Re: tarpaper what you call "tarpaper"sounds more like rolled roofing material.I was a roofer for about eight years and used quite a bit of the stuff.especially on flat roofs or ones with low angles.now an interesting thing is usually we would require more than one to cover an average size building.I put it to the forum that it's highly probable that some group(Gallagher or the coast guard) had more than one roll of the material and failed to take it with them when they left the area.this may seem an obvious oversight to leave some thing quite as large, at the site but maybe they didn't feel like or have enough room in their equipment to take on the extra weight of the material.I can remember leaving materials behind on jobsites for like reasons,like it was to hot to handle after being in the sun all day or we thought we would return to the jobsite to get it later and then just never got back to it,possibly the same thing here.It is also nicknamed the "poor mans shingle"as it is general cheaper to install then regular roof shingles. as to why it was there to begin with,well is it possible that they were intending to build a site there and thought better of it.due to the fact that it was on the ocean side of the island.also does anyone know if the LORAN station was always intended to be placed on the end of the island.if it wasn't then was the "seven site" a possible location for it.this to could be the reason why the material was here.failed to take it when they retrieved any other supplies.that is if it were a possible site for the LORAN station. hope this helps ltm(not a member yet,but I did mail the cheque today) richard lund ************************************************************************* From Ric Thanks Richard. As far as we know, the Loran site was always intended for the southeast tip. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:47:17 EDT From: Charles Lim Subject: Evidence at the Seven site So far from what I've read from the last few days worth of e-mails, it seems that there are many artifacts that have been discussed to somehow raise the possibility that some kind of structure stood near the '7'. The lightbulb, the ceramic bit, the tarpaper and maybe even the button, are all items we associate with some kind of dwelling being there. How certain is everyone that there was something there and is there the possibility that more evidence lies beneath the surface? If the items found near the site are anything to go by, what is the probability that this is indeed true? The increasing inability to explain the presence of certain items at certain places could just be a co-incedence, maybe?? Charles Lim ************************************************************************** From Ric You raise an interesting and rather basic point. When we find a number of artifacts in one location, how do we judge whether they are likely to be the result of one or several events? Obviously, if they are inconsistent in time association (a pocket calculator, a cannon ball, and a prehistoric pot sherd all found at the same site) we conclude that a variety of activities over time have left a variety of artifacts at the site. At the Seven site we have (so far) artifactual evidence of two categories of activity: - the installation, and apparent later removal, of rudimentary infrastructure originating from the colonial settlement (tank, screening, asbestos). - the discharge of a firearm by a Coast Guardsman (carbine shell casing). We also have other artifacts which we can not, with certainty, assign to a particular source (button, porcelain plate fragment, empty food can, metal barrel, roll of roofing material). Because the evidence, both anecdotal and artifactual, of Coast Guard activity at the site indicates casual contact while exploring and plinking at birds; and the evidence of colonial activity, both documentary and artifactual, indicates construction and residence at the site, it would seem logical to assign the more ambiguous but infrastructure-related artifacts to the latter source. Of course, we also suspect a third activity at the site - the survival, death, and discovery of a castaway - but we do not yet have artifactual evidence to support that suspicion UNLESS it turns out that the stain on the button was caused by contact with decomposing human flesh. That jury is still out. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:49:34 EDT From: Kenton Spading Subject: Thatch Christian D. wrote >Thatch is still much used,so might have been prefered at the time. I guess >tar paper needs very expensive support, like planks! Black paper would have >been extremelyhot too.... And not too good for rain water collection... One of the former Nikumaroro residents that Ric and I interviewed on Funafuti in 1997 said that one of the memories that sticks with her is the process of the entire colony packing to leave the island in 1963. She was struck by the fact that nothing of value was left behind. She said something to the effect....."They very intent on not leaving anything of value behind....so much so that they even removed all the thatch from the buildings and took all of it with them to use in building new houses on Funafuti." LTM Kenton Spading ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:15:43 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: The role of the roll Worth nothing more than, FYI ... The std. roll roofing from well before WW II and still available, is "90 lb. Roll Roofing" also known as '90 lb. sq.' A roll was 36" wide and 34 feet long. It covered 100 sq. ft. [a 'square' to a roofer] , and weighed 90 lbs. [34' x 3' = 102 sq.' that allowed for overlap]. Inside the roll were one or two cans of tar, similar to a can of peas or corn, to tar the edges under the overlap. Roofs were seldom 34 feet in any dimension, hence partial rolls on a job were common; even prof. roofers would cut approx. length strips, roll up & tote to the roof; easier than 90 lbs. on the shoulder. In the '30's I watched many a roll on a shoulder carried up extension ladders to the roofs of a second story house, and on our own, I helped tar the edges & nail it down. The depression years were do-it-yourself times. RC ************************************************************************** From Ric Hold the phone. You say, "Inside the roll were one or two cans of tar, similar to a can of peas or corn, to tar the edges under the overlap." Very near the roll of material we found an empty can that we took to be a food can. It was roughly the size and shape of a can of car wax (about 4.5 inches in diameter x maybe 2 inches tall). It was the only can around and we thought it was a bit odd. I'm wondering now if it was a can of tar. The photo we have shows some kind of black material in the bottom of the can. We can certainly learn more when we return. Try this. In the early days of the colony, before the coconut plantings had matured, thatch was a rare commodity (we have reference to thatch being imported from Hull and Sydney where there were already established coconut plantations). For the structure at the Seven site (whatever its size and purpose) it was decided to use roll roofing. What remains at the site is the unused portion of a standard roll and the empty tar can. By the time the site was salvaged for useful material (sometime after Laxton's visit in 1949) thatch was plentiful and the partial roll of roofing, like the rusty tank, was not worth recovering. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:19:56 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: 7500 kHz ADF non-result at 19hr:33 into the flight Whilst pondering this one, give a little thought to how the ADF in say a Piper Warrior or a Cessna is able to get a bearing on the local radio station. Perhaps Cam could outline the differences and/or similarities?? Th WOMBAT *************************************************************************** From Ric And how would that further the investigation? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:06:10 EDT From: Greg Subject: Re: tarpaper Copper screening could also be used for radio frequency shielding in building construction to keep unwanted signals out or in. We contract to evaluate situations which may result in shielding computer facilities. Today it is common to use electrically conductive paper like sheets, they are made of nickel plated carbon fibers. It is not out of the quesiton that the Loran station may have needed to shield a room or a whole building. Greg ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:07:57 EDT From: Charles Lim Subject: Re: Evidence at the Seven site Thanks for your reply. I can see your point clearly. Evidence located at or near a particular site all relate to events which put them there. In the case of the castaway though, we have anecdotal evidence of the event but no physical (bones etc,)evidence of it. You could put some items that cannot be clearly explained into one or more scenarios (generally speaking) that could explain their existance at the site. Doing the reverse, finding evidence to corroborate a theory or a piece of written evidence, isn't so easy. I say this because it is a kind of catch 22 situation. If someone says 'an arrow killed the king' and then later wrote about it, how do we find the arrow or the wound on the king if there isn't a trace of it left years later to prove it? If the seven site is indeed the area which the castaway perished, we would be looking for a very tiny piece of evidence that was left behind or something else that no-one has yet discovered to date. The stain on the button could be the ticket that proves the castaway theory, but it definately needs much more corroboration. Charles Lim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:10:33 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Re: tarpaper From what I read this morning, it appears that the forum has further defined the amount of rolled roofing per roll, i.e. 100 square feet, as well as other information such a weight. Is the recovered or discovered a full roll or a reminant. If a reminant, approximately how many lineal feet are in the roll? Going out on a short limb, I will speculate that the "missing" footage was used in the village, the coast guard station, or Galagher's "shelter" at the 7 site, since I cannot conceive of any other use. Assuming that it was Galagher"s "shelter", (limb gets longer) , you could approximate the size of such a structure by calculating the square root of the "missing" square footage to determine the dimensions of the building. On the other hand, since the natives removed everything that wasn't tied down when they left, and if natural roofing material (thatch) was hard to come by originally, I find it hard to beleive they would abandon the remaining roofing when they were done building the "shelter"--seems they would have taken it back to the village for further use. Unless, by the time the "shelter" was built, thatch was available and this was reverse "salvage" from the village (the natives preferring the cooler thatch to the hotter roofing) thus using it for Galagher's "temporary shelter" becoming a judicious use of material no longer wanted or used in the village and avoiding the use of precious thatch for something that was to be temporary anyway. The coasties on the other hand, given the huge amounts of wasted material of all sorts during the war, would have little incentive to "salvage" the reminant, thus leaving it at the site. This of course begs the issue of why the coasties would have dragged it to the 7 site in the first instance. I think we are going in circles until further investigation can be done on "site" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:16:21 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: TAR CAN? Ric: 'Similar to a can of peas or corn' was not a clear statement. Although it bothered me a bit, I did send it. Bad me. Try Campbells soup. That is a better match. The cans were 'plain tin' [actually probably steel] with no label, about 4-5" tall & maybe 2.5" in dia. I suspect that they bought a batch of cans of some standard size for economy reasons. And I'm not sure that all mfgrs of roofing used the same size can. I think there was a 'kraft paper' label pasted on each end of the roll to keep the cans inside. Also I recall complaints of only one can in some rolls. One would use a screwdriver to punch a hole near the rim, and then pour the tar out in a small stream just in from the edge of the previous strip laid, before before overlapping the next strip. When the soon to be ubiquitious 'beer can opener' became popular, every roofer had one just for the tar cans. RC *************************************************************************** From Ric The entire lid of this can seems to have been cut off using a manual can opener (like the ones on many pocket knives). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:51:56 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: The "7" site/ Artifacts at I may have missed this info, but have former coasties at the Loran Station or anyone attached thereto, if alive and well, been interviewed regarding any artifacts found,identified,collected or just observed? If so did any of them take any photographs of the station and area,ground or aerial? They must have had plenty of time to "explore" the island. LTM, Ron Bright ************************************************************************* From Ric We've interviewed several veterans of the Gardner Loran station. The recollections of two of them about coming upon a "water collection device" back in the bush led us to the discovery of the Seven site in the first place. The Coasties may have had the time to "explore" the island, but they did not have the freedom nor the inclination to do much exploring. Their CO kept them restricted to the immediate area of the station except for organized and supervised trips to the village, and most of them spent their off-watch time snoozing and trying to stay cool. By all accounts, lethargy was the order of the day. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:00:54 EDT From: David Osgood Subject: Can vs. Corrosion The subject of the "tar can" at the seven site might be more significant than I first thought. I live about a half mile from the Pacific Ocean, and there is no way a ferrous can would remain intact in my yard for 60 years. The accelerated corrosion due to the salty air is quite substantial and I can imagine at the seven site it would be worse, because the increased temperature and humidity when compared to mid-coast California. Amongst some engine parts I left in my back yard a couple of years ago, I recently discovered a standard "soup can" I used as a temporary container for some push rods. After two years of being exposed to the elements, the can and push rods had heavy corrosion. So, I would give a can on Niku a relatively short life span - 5 years max. This would mean that the "tar can" may have been deposited at the seven site much later than is the current thinking. Therefore, there might be an undocumented visit to the site, and the assumed timeframe, and possible origin(s) of the artifacts need a revision. What kind of documentation is there for visits to Niku after 1963, and especially within 10 years of the discovery of the "tar can?" Dave Osgood *************************************************************************** Interesting point. We have no hard data on how long a ferrous can could survive on Niku. We do see lots of steel barrels/drums that presumably date from the early years of the colony and are now reduced to little more than flakes of rust on the ground. There were a couple of visits to the island in the early '70s by naturalists and the newly formed government of Kiribati did a survey of the island in 1978. TIGHAR's first expedition to Niku was in 1989, then we returned in 1991. We found the can in 1996. Those are the known visits and none of them includes a known visit to the Seven site. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:01:42 EDT From: Margot Still Subject: Re: tarpaper In order for this theory to work, i.e., deducing the size of the building by how much of the material is missing, we would have to know for certain that the roll brought to the island was a complete roll. There is a good probability that the roll may have been partially used before being brought to the "7" site. LTM, MStill #2332 CE ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:02:41 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Pery-Johnston Thanks, Tom, It wasn't all me though! We had another Aussie from the forum on the task as well (I believe her name is Denise and she's from Brisbane - but I haven't seen her postings). Thanks must also go to Rachael Pery Johnston for being so agreeable and helpful. Th' WOMBAT... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:04:29 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Screening The common colonial use for that kind of mesh (if it a flat piece) is usually insect screening on buildings - usually sleeping rooms. It is commonly called "fly screen" but mostly used to protect against mosquitoes. Another common use for it was covering a frame on a stand or hung somewhere to keep flies rats and insects off food - particularly meat. One note here of course is that in the tropics you don't keep meat without a refrigerator unless it is salted. Of course once it is salted, you keep it....... In a screened enclosure. Another obvious one is that On Gardner, if there were mosquitoes (or sandflies or other annoying pests) Gallagher would most likely have used a Mossie net over his bed. I'll accept that he may have screened windows at night, but cloth mosquito netting was easier to cart around the world than rolls of metal mesh. Having said that.... ???? The stuff used to be made from woven copper wire, sometimes a wire that looked more like brass. These days it seems to be made from nylon over glass cord. If the holes are big enough it just might have been appropriated for use as a sieve... Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:09:56 EDT From: Richard Lund Subject: Re: roll roofing just called my father who used to do construction work when he was younger,he too can recall the use of this material.however he does not recall the cans of tar inside them.he didn't start construction work till he around 1950.perhaps this practice was discontinued at this time. an interesting thing he did mention though is that the rolled roofing came in various thickness to correspond with years-I.e.5years-1/8inch,10years-1/4inch,20years-1/2inch(the fractions may not be exact,dad is quite old remember ).the same technique is used today to describe roofing materials.not sure if this was true in the time frame we are looking at in our quest. Ric do you have the dimensions of the roll at the "seven site",I can't find them on the TIGHAR website.my line of thought here is that if we could determine what thickness the coast guard used during this time frame it might help determine if it was them who left it at the site.would documentation exist about the supplies the coast guard used at the loran site?would it be this detailed to include the thickness of such material?would Gallagher use the same thickness and do we have anyway to determine if they had any of this material in their supplies?again I didn't find much regarding this information on the TIGHAR website,but it might exist in his journals or some other documentation others would have access to,if it exist. would this line of thought be worth pursuing or am I grasping for the proverbial straw ??????? as an interesting side note,my father vaguely remembers the reports of amelia's disappearance and my grandfather actually kept a few newspaper articles on the subject,they were lost years ago though.(tragically)when he moved from the U.S. to Canada.It was funny to hear him talk about it,I never before now thought about all the major events he lived through such as this.makes a good point to all to appreciate our folks a little more though and makes me a little bit prouder to be a part of the search for A.E.and F.N. just a thought LTM(within a week or two i'll have the number) richard lund *************************************************************************** From Ric At this point we have no evidence that the Coast Guard on Gardner used "roll roofing' at all and we've come across no supply records other than the manifests of what was brought in aboard PBYs (which did not include construction supplies). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:12:33 EDT From: Roger Kirkwood Subject: small screen... Gentlemen...as I recall the screen fragment(s) was very small, the mesh fine. Has it been evaluated as the grid of a discarded, shattered vacuum tube? LTM (who knows how important the loss of grid bias can be on a lonely island) ************************************************************************** From Ric Way too big for that. we're talking about strips that are a couple inches wide by several inches long. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:13:55 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Evidence at the Seven site The largest pieces of definitive evidence are still several quite large bones somewhere in the bush.... Unless they were later found and discarded (after the powers that be decided the original ones were junk). Of course, Gallagher may have been dead by the time any other human bones were found. The original story does mention two skeletons I believe, though the documented evidence only discusses "part" of one - and a small part at that. It is possible (though very unlikely) the second skeleton was the rest of the original. This is NOT intended to be "My Theory" by the way... Just a stray observation.. Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:54:47 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Second skeleton? >From Ross Devitt >The original story does mention two skeletons I believe, though the >documented evidence only discusses "part" of one Which brings up an interesting point. If they found two skeletons, why are bones only listed for one? Did they decide that one was most likely female and thus most likely AE, so they only sent in the one. Or was the story of the second one only anecdotal, with no actual skeletal remains. Or did they bury the other remains and just not bother to dig them up? If they did find two, why didn't they send in the other bones? If they buried the "other" skeleton, where did they bury it? LTM, Dave Bush #2200 *************************************************************************** From Ric It's not at all clear how the anecdotal accounts of two skeletons got started or what happened to the other one if, indeed, there were two. What DOES seem quite clear is that IF there was a second skeleton, Gallagher was never aware of it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:58:31 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Screening In the video of the Seven Site from '96, as I recall, it looks like the screening is in kind of rectangular strips, a good deal longer than they are wide. Is that right, Ric? If so, does it tell us anything about what its function might have been? TK ************************************************************************** From Ric That's correct. The strips measure roughly 1.5 to 2 inches in width by perhaps as much a a foot in length. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:10:20 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: roll roofing I wonder where (and if) we could find a list of supplies that Maude and Gallagher took to the island on the 1938 expedition. It makes a lot of sense that they'd take something for temporary housing construction, given the near dearth of thatching on the island at the time. TK *************************************************************************** From Ric I 'spect that if such information exists it's buried in the bowels of Hanslope Park in England. That's not a public archive and it was a major exercise for Kenton Spading and I to get access to the files back in '98. There's also a steep learning curve to just finding your way through the maze of records to what you want to look at. In short, it's probably not worth what it would cost to find out. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:30:05 EDT From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: Evidence at the Seven site > From Ross Devitt > > The largest pieces of definitive evidence are still several quite large > bones somewhere in the bush.... Unless they were later found and > discarded (after the powers that be decided the original ones were junk) The Kilts story associates Gallagher's death with the islanders throwing a bag of bones overboard. It seems conceivable to me that these bones could have been a later find. One hopes not. Marty Moleski, SJ 2359 ************************************************************************** From Ric We've often struggled with that part of the Kilts story. So much of what he related - bizarre as it once sounded - has proven to be fairly correct, but the bit about bones in a gunny sack being thrown overboard is still at odds with anything we know happened. Generally speaking, throwing bones in the ocean is not a Gilbertese thing, but it's not too hard to imagine a line of reasoning that went something like: "So after Kela (Gallagher) died we found more bones. Last time this happened we buried what we found and Kela later made us dig it up - and look what happened! This time we're taking no chances. These bones are going where no one will ever dig them up." LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:37:38 EDT From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Re: roll roofing Re Tar paper / roofing. here is a dumb question. Are you sure the stuff you saw wouldn't float and wasn't brought to the site out of the sea during a big storm? Yeah, I know it is heavy, but so is the USS Iowa. Most petroleum products float, what about this stuff? Just a thought. Andrew McKenna #1045CE ************************************************************************** From Ric I'd be real surprised if this stuff floats and it's much farther inland than any flotsam we've seen. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:41:28 EDT From: Bob Brandenburg Subject: Re: 7500 kHz ADF non-result at 19hr:33 into the flight > From Angelo Campanella > The likelihood that a wave of pure horizontal magnetic polarization > (required to be able to create a null with an RDF look on a distant > aircraft) had arrived at the Electra at its contact distance at the 19:33Z > moment is and was remote. That is, Itasca 7500 kHz antenna non-verticality > plus the mixture of sky plus ground waves that arrived at the contact > distance (probably 40+-20 miles at that moment) made the expected ADF > reception scenario to be what actually happened; "unable to get a minimum" > (a minimum is the next best thing to a null, if a null is not possible). > Thus, it is conceivable that Amelia never had a chance to localize at the > distance she and Fred placed themselves from the Itasca that day with the > 7500 kHz apparatus chosen for the flight, even given that it all worked > perfectly. > > Has any one researched this radio physics conundrum to determine whether > the facts are as I have postulated them?> I'll try to answer Angelo's question. It took me a while to dig out my files - - virtually everything in the house has been stashed in preparation for complete recarpeting of the old homestead in a few days. We don't know much about the antennas aboard Itasca. Available photographs of the Lake Class show that there are no vertical whip antennas. There are what appear to be vertical wire antennas suspended from at least two points on the forward mast stay wires, but those also could be feeders for sloping long wire segments (at about 60-degree slope) integrated into the fore stays. If there were vertical wires, then the radiated field was vertically polarized. If sloping wires, then the radiated field was somewhere between vertical and horizontal. But in either case, the polarization of the wave front arriving at NR16020 was almost certainly dominated by a horizontal Electrostatic field (and a vertical magnetic field), thus preventing a minimum or null, even if the DF system was operating properly. Assuming that Noonan was able to determine time of arrival at the 337/157 degree LOP through Howland Island, but not his position along the LOP, then we have that NR16020 reached the LOP at 1912Z, when AE said "We must be on you but cannot see you". Randy Jacobson's Monte Carlo simulation analysis, based on known and estimated flight wind data, shows that the Electra's most likely position at 1912Z was approximately 65 nautical miles (nmi) to the right of the intended track, which would give a closest point of approach (CPA) to Howland of about 65 nmi. My computer simulation analysis based on reported signal strength, and skywave propagation physics, yields an estimated maximum CPA of 80 nmi, which independently corroborates Randy's result, within the accuracy of the available input data. Given that AE/FN arrived at the LOP at 1912Z and immediately turned toward Gardner Island, and assuming a ground speed of 130 knots, they would have been approximately 108 nmi from Howland (and the Itasca) at 1933Z. For that time and distance, the skywave arrival angle at 7500 KHz was approximately 70 degrees. Hence the signal arriving at the Electra was propagated via a Near Vertical Incidence Skywave (NVIS) path, and the magnetic field component had a large vertical orientation, rendering it virtually impossible for AE to get a minimum or a null on the signal, even of her DF system was working. Multipath effects in the downcoming signal would have further complicated things by making any apparent minumum wander or swing in bearing. The likelihood of a significant ground wave component in the Itasca's signal is minimal, both because of the distance involved, and because of radiated power limitation. We don't know what the radiated power was, or even the transmitter power delivered to the antenna, but we do know from a message sent during pre-flight communications planning, that Itasca was skeptical about using 7500 KHz as a DF signal because of a known power limitation, expressed as a short range capability. LTM, Bob Brandenburg, #2286 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:45:19 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: small screen... > From Ric > > Way too big for that. we're talking about strips that are a couple inches > wide by several inches long. Now THAT might tell us something. If I am making up a flyscreen for a window (made several recently), guess what I am left with after the job? That's right, pieces a couple of inches wide by the length of the frame that have been trimmed from around the edge of the frame.... Of course this doesn't say that's what it is - but the technique is the same whether nylon/glass mesh or wire mesh is used - you attach the stuff to the frame, cut off the excess, then nail on the beading . The difference is that when cutting the nylon mesh one tends to cut the full length of excess off. When working with the metal screen you tend to cut it part way along, then cut that piece off before continuing because it doesn't just hang there out of the way like the modern stuff. The cut edges keep coming back to attack your fingers, hence the bits a couple of inches wide and several inches long... Once again - overt speculation, but based on using the stuff.. However... Were they making a window screen? or perhaps trimming the mesh to fit a smaller frame? maybe a sieve? To look for bits of bone....... I would imagine if you were making a sieve you'd just fold the wire over the outside of the frame and nail it on that way, but even so, there would probably be bits needing to be trimmed off. Th" WOMBAT (who just happens to be screening more windows this week to keep mossies out...) *************************************************************************** From Ric Sounds good to me. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:46:10 EDT From: Denise Subject: Pery-Johnstone Ross Devitt mentions my help trying to track down Pery-Johnstone. No, Ross, the credit is all yours. Sure, I was trying to track it, but I'd got the spelling of the name all wrong and found myself nowhere and frustrated about it. Denise ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:16:08 EDT From: Kenton Spading Subject: Did a Flood at the 7-Site Kill the Reef? A recent posting on the forum and a conversation I had with a Niku team member have caused me to take another look at the 7-site photos posted on the Web. Flood waters from the lagoon may have overflowed the seven site, picked up silt and sediment and in turn killed the reef. A summary of my thoughts and some alternative theories follow: 1. Someone (I offer my thanks to that person) posted on the Forum the observation that portions of a reef can be killed by silt or sediment (dirt/sand) washing out over a reef from the land. This is an attractive explantion for the dead reef area offshore from the 7-site. But, at first I was bothered by this theory because I could not come up with a source for the sediment which would be subject to a burst of energy with enough duration to carry the amount of sediment needed to kill the reef. That is a long way of saying that I did not feel a large wave(s) from the ocean side could carry the amount of sediment off the beach necessary to kill the reef. 2. But then John Clauss (who has been on all the Niku trips and has seen more of the island than any other TIGHAR) mentioned to me that he observed an area of the island where water from the lagoon had flowed overland and back out into the ocean...like water overflowing the sides of a bowl. The area he observed is down by the Coast Guard Loran site (not too far from the 7 site). Lets examine these two ideas/thoughts together as alternative speculative theories that may help explain some of what we are seeing at the 7 site. First, you might ask..."How can water from the lagoon escape overland and get back into the ocean?" Answer.....A large storm could, in theory, cause the water level in the lagoon to get high enough to overflow the portion of the land surrounding the lagoon. When storms hit the island from the west or northwest the wind and wave action causes water to flow into the lagoon through Taitiman passage. Indeed, the 1997 NIKU 3 team observed the lagoon filling up during a storm. The water level rose a foot or so and flooded some portions of the island. A larger, longer duration storm, with higher winds (and maybe high tides) could pack the lagoon full of water to the point where the water would have no where to go but back out through one of the passages or......overland and back out into the ocean. It is a function of not only the volume of water in the lagoon but also what is called "Wave Runup". With Wave Runup (or Seiche effect) the water level along the shore (lets say the lagoon side of the 7 site) will become much higher than the rest of the lagoon as the wind piles the water up on that side. In effect the entire surface of the lagoon will slope uphill toward that shore due to the wind. As the volume of water in the lagoon increases eventually the water could spill overland to the ocean. In fact the spot where the water overflows to the ocean does not even have to be the lowest piece of land it is simply the spot that is attacked the hardest by the wind. My office does wind and wave runup studies routinely on lakes and reservoirs to determine how high to build shoreline structures etc. etc.. I could go into a more detailed explanation of why the area near the 7 site in particular is a prime candidate for high wave runup but I would risk boring you with details about fetch lengths, shallow waves, deep waves and other sleeper subjects. If you want the dirty details, email me off forum. But...If you understand fetch lengths, see the first 7 site color photo on the web. You will see that a fetch line, when the lagoon level is high and some of the land near the inlet in flooded, could be drawn from the 7 site all the way back out for miles into the ocean (the fetch is HUGE!!). In any case....I am proposing that water from the lagoon may (and very likely does), at times, overflow at or very near the 7 site and go back out into the ocean. This could explain some of things we are seeing in the 7 site photos on the Web site and explain the dead reef area. The reef is killed as water from the lagoon carries lots of sediment and sand from the land/beach out over the reef. So lets look at the Web photos to see if any of this theory could make sense (see the 7 site under Research Bulletins on the Web). I will reference the 4 sets of photos as....Colorado 1937, Leander 1938, Pelican 1939 and Navy 1941. The Colorado 1937 photos do not show much other than a suspicious looking jog in the lagoon shoreline on the left center of the photos. You can see this "bump" in the shoreline in the Leander photos just below the words "Lagoon Shore" You could speculate that this is an eroded inlet area (see the Leander photos) for the lagoon overland flow path to the ocean (very speculative based on these photos alone) The Leander 1938 photos show a discolored area under the water extending from out in the lagoon toward the lagoon shoreline of the 7 site (a flow path?). There also appears to be bare ground in line with this extending from the lagoon shore over to the ocean. If indeed this is an overland flow path you would expect the area of the path to be covered with sparse vegetation that is not as thick as the surrounding area and thus more prone to the effects of drought (or reaccurring high water). I won't say anything about the Pelican 1939 photos as the resolution (at least on my computer) makes it hard to even speculate about the area in question. If indeed the Navy 1941 photos show human activity, why are they working at what I propose is a lagoon overflow site (albeit at the 7 site)? I speculate that if you are going to build a house for Gallagher on the tradewind side of the island, the overflow/7 site is the ideal place. The large 1940 storm that Gallagaher reported has come and gone and potentially overflowed the lagoon and helped clear a path from the lagoon to the ocean at the 7 site. There is less vegetation to clear in this area and there is easy access to both the lagoon and ocean. The house could be built on the higher ground next to the overflow path (next to a dry river bed so to speak) Last but not least...the Navy 1941 photos show a discoloration of the reef area directly in line with what I propose is the overflow area. So, you could speculate that the photos show 1. A discoloration on the lagoon shore side (see Leander 1938) which may be a flow path for lagoon water when it heads overland to the ocean (it could also just be a variation in the water depth or coral formation). 2. An area extending from the lagoon to the ocean that has sparse vegetation which could indicate the area has been affected by flood waters (e.g. vegetation and soils ravaged by sea water) (also see Leander 1938). 3. A discoloration of the reef on the ocean side directly in line with a large missing patch of beach front vegetation. This could indicate that water has flowed from the lagoon...over the land and out into the ocean (carrying silt which has killed the reef). SUMMARY: I offer the above theory as something that might help explain some of what we see at the 7 site and the dead reef area. It certainly does not eliminate it from being the bones/castaway site. Most of the current TIGHAR theory can fit within this framework. If indeed it is an overflow site, the artifacts that where found there could have been carried in by the flood waters. LTM Kenton Spading ************************************************************************** From Ric A couple of observations: As I understand it, the coral on the reef-flat is already dead and so can not be "killed". The discoloration (an area of lighter color) we see in the 1941 photo seems most consistent with sand that has washed out onto the flat. The real question is the source of the water that washed it there. Is it backwash from ocean waves or is it overwash from the lagoon? I agree that it is likely that portions of the shoreline southeast of the 7 site have been overwashed from the lagoon side during "westerly" gales. Evidence of that includes: - the absence of large trees in that area - the presence of two small "lakes" - the observation by the divers on the 1989 expedition that the coral on the reef slope (not the flat) just offshore that area is dead. I do not think that overwash occurs in the 7 site area. Evidence includes: - the apparent presence of a "safety-valve" area just southeast of there (see above). - the relativley high elevation of the ridge that runs through the site. - the pattern of the artifacts found at the site. - the fact that a place that was known to be prone to overwash would be about the last place you'd want to build a house. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:45:58 EDT From: Phil Tanner Subject: Re: Second skeleton? Something I haven't quite grasped - when Gallagher set off for Fiji did he consider the search for bones complete, or did he think he might be asked to make even greater efforts on his return? Phil Tanner, 2276. ************************************************************************** From Ric Well, in the absence of a clear statement that "I now consider the search to be complete." anything we say has to speculative. Let us, therefore, speculate. I think the chronology is instructive; September 1940 - Gallagher arrives, hears about the buried skull, goes and finds most of the bones and artifacts and makes his intial report to his superiors on the 23rd. October 1940 - Much discussion between Gallagher and his superiors about what was found and the its possible significance, culiminating on the 26th with Gallagher being ordered to conduct an organized search. November 1940 - No message traffic at all from Gallagher. Later reports make it clear that weather turned bad around mid-November. December 1940 - No message traffic from Gallagher. Later reports say that the radio transmitter on Gardner failed around the 20th. On the 27th Gallagher writes a letter that will accompany the bones and artifacts when they are shipped to Fiji. It might be concluded that he considered the search to be completed at this time. January 1941 - The bones and artifacts are finally put aboard ship for Fiji on the 28th. February 1941 - Isaac commandeers the bones in Tarawa and, on the 11th, notifies Gallagher that they are those of an elderly Polynesian male. March 1941 - Ship with bones and artifacts aboard finally reaches Fiji on the 22nd. April 1941 - Hoodless examines bones and judges them to be those of a short, stocky European male. May 1941 - No activity. June 1941 - Gallagher leaves Gardner for Fiji on or about the 12th. July 1941 - In Fiji, Gallagher writes a note to file expressing his opinion that the castaway must have been an "unfortunate native castaway." Based upon the above , my opinion is that Gallagher considered the search to be concluded by the time the he wrote the transmittal letter on December 27, 1940 and that Isaac's dismissal of the bones in February 1941 discouraged any further investigation except to satisfy his own curiousity. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:47:46 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: Roll roofing float? Would a std. roll of 90lb. roofing float? No way! A 90 lb object would have to displace a ninimum of 1.4 cu. ft. of 64.3 lb. sea water to float. That means that a 3 ft. long cylinder would have to be at least 9.25 inches in diameter [with ends sealed] to float. A 90 lb. of roll roofing was 8.25 in. dia. displacing only 72 lbs. of water. In no time water would penetrate the paper or what ever was across the ends of the roll, decreasing the displacement by a few more lbs. A 70 lb. partial roll of the same size [not tightly rolled] would float RC ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:53:04 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Pery-Johnstone > From Denise > > Ross Devitt mentions my help trying to track down Pery-Johnstone. No, > Ross, the credit is all yours. Sure, I was trying to track it, but I'd got the > spelling of the name all wrong and found myself nowhere and frustrated about it. It's not about credit.... Whatever happened we both managed to contact the correct place. But if there's credit due it is mainly to Tom King and Sir Ian Thomson, who provided the Pery Johnston details, Janice Brown who was clever enough to follow a hunch, and came up with the Australian connection that enabled you and I to find the correct people, and Rachael Pery Johnston who was so receptive of going to talk to her father about her grandfather's diaries etc.. (if any). Sounds like a pretty good "Team Effort" all round to me! Now we wait a while and see if it leads somewhere. I'll contact Rachael shortly to see if there was any interest shown by her father. (According to Rachael he was born in 1944, so the bones would not exactly have been a dinner table topic, and left Fiji in 1954. From what Rachael said his death was in 1983) Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:20:41 EDT From: Mark Cameron Subject: Re: small screen... During my short lived (and sadly, unsuccessful) career as a home remodeler, there were many times when it was necessary to re-screen windows. The strips that were left over after trimming were much the same in size as those found on Niku. I think WOMBAT is on to something there. LTM (who wishes she had brought mosquitoe netting with her) Mark Cameron #2301 ************************************************************************** From Ric Yes, I think this makes a whole lot of sense. Gallagher gets his orders to conduct an organized search. He doesn't trust the laborers so he makes arrangements to live on-site. The roll roofing and the screen strips are left-overs from the construction of a small "house." A water distiller is brought down from the village and erected where we see it in the 1941 photo. Everything is left there when the search is concluded (except perhaps the metal stand upon which the distilling tank is mounted. The tank itself remained.) In 1944 wandering Coasties stumbled across the tank but never saw the house. Laxton is shown the house in 1949. Sometime between then and the abandonment of the colony in 1963, somebody dismantles and removes the house. Works for me. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:19:26 EDT From: Mike Holt Subject: Re: small screen... > In 1944 wandering Coasties stumbled across the tank but never saw the house. > Laxton is shown the house in 1949. > Sometime between then and the abandonment of the colony in 1963, somebody > dismantles and removes the house. Did anybody take any photos of the house? Mike Holt ************************************************************************** From Ric Not that we know of. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:23:09 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: small screen... The "small house" may not have been more than 12 feet by 15 or 20 feet. Room enough for a bed, and somewhere to work. I don't think a much larger structure would be necessary for short term occupation. What size was a "normal house" in the village? There may yet be signs of the foundation at the site. Were the village houses built above ground? If so there will be some regularly spaced holes (depressions in the ground anyway). Th' WOMBAT ************************************************************************* From Ric I agree. We're probably talking about more of a hut than a house. Houses in the village weren't very big either (Tom?) and yes, there are at least two holes in the ground that are suggestive of support posts near where the plate shard was found. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:29:29 EDT From: Christian D. Subject: Re: tarpaper > Just a thought about the copper screening - I seem to recall that you said > it was a fine mesh (as opposed to something like hardware cloth). Isn't > copper mesh frequently used as filtering screens in pumps, etc? Could this > have something to do with the water tank? Very good point: screening should be used on the tank fill, to keep leaves and critters out. I never saw anybody mention this. Could tarpaper used for rain catchment give good water? Christian D. *************************************************************************** From Ric The tank originally was a complete metal cube with a rather heavy hatch in the top, which supports the idea that it was actually part of a water-making, rather than water catchment system. *************************************************************************** From Christian D. >I put it to the forum that it's highly probable that some group(Gallagher or >the coast guard) had more than one roll of the material.... Yes, but then again: whatever happened to the other rolls??? If any tarpaper was used at this location at all, I'll assume (I'm no roofer) it was nailed to something.... If that lumber is not here anymore, it has been salvaged! Is it possible to salvage that lumber without the Seven being littered with a zillion bits of torn tarpaper? I think we should not discount the possibility that the roll of tarpaper is a "non event"... Some fluke in the history of NIku . Kind of like the barcoded label found on the other side of the island; some minor event unrelated to anything we know about Niku... Some roaming fishermen in the 70's who spent a bit of time on the island, found tarpaper at the Loran station, thought of building a shelter at the Seven, and left soon after when they failed to find enough turtles , a yachty playing Robinson Crusoe -or WHATEVER... Speculating will become much more meaningful after the next visit to Niku... Regards ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:34:25 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: 7500 kHz ADF non-result at 19hr:33 into the flight I concur with Bob Brandenburg's explanation on this. In an analysis of what might have happened with a hypothetical 20-40 mile range, I don't believe the mostly-vertical Itasca antenna would have been a good enough NVIS radiator to create any substantial skywave. You do not need a 'pure' polarization to get a minimum, you just need a signal with mostly the needed polarization. I believe if you go with the 20-40 mile situation, you have to come up with some other explanation of the DF failure. When you get out to the 100+ mile range (actually well less than that) you are working practically only skywave, and there's where the vulnerabilities come in. Note however, the skywave explanation still does not address one other problem: WHY she couldn't get the RDF to work at Lae. BTW, to backtrack some: this may be too obvious, but re the 10E's early antenna configurations, as i see it: #1 belly antenna- receive only: too close to metal airframe to be a good trans. antenna, but satisfactory for receive. Trail antenna for transmit only, but requires letting out to predetermined correct length. ( transmitter does not have "standard 50 ohm output" so must be adjusted to one specific antenna per channel, no switching of transmitter between antennas allowed.) Also, for use with a trail antenna, the transmitter would have to be "tuned up" for maintenance by having a tech along in-fligh to do the adjustments. #2 trail antenna replaced by dorsal antenna - no more having to crank antenna in/out. The belly antenna was probably kept as receive antenna as its leadin was closer to the receiver - less signal loss and less engine electrical noise pickup? The next question that arises is whether the belly antenna remained in use as receive antenna thruout the 10E's life. Hue Miller *************************************************************************** From Ric It's very tempting to think that it did because its loss so conveniently explains Earhart's inability to receive anything later in the flight except the one time when she was trying to use the loop. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:58:59 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Evidence at the Seven site Ric says: "Generally speaking, throwing bones in the ocean is not a Gilbertese thing." That ain't necessarily so. There are accounts in Gilbertese tradition of bones being thrown into the ocean (though sometimes they come back in fairly nasty form), and when I inquired of Dr. Ward Goodenough of the U. of Pennsylvania, who's done ethnography in Kiribati, as to whether disposal in the ocean would be something I Kiribati back then might have done, his response was "I don't see why not." We certainly have to allow for the possibility that some bones WERE thrown into the ocean, and the scenario that Ric outlines seems very much within reason. Not much we can do with it, however, unless we can figure out where they dumped them. Let's see, we start off with a loss of canoe fuel to evaporation..... Speaking of things that aren't Gilbertese things, the more I've thought about Kenton's alternative for creation of the Seven Site (colonists building a recuperation retreat for Gallagher), the less likely it's seemed to me. I think the colonists would regard it as very, very presumptious to do anything like that for Gallagher without being asked to, and from what we know of Gallagher it's very hard to imagine him asking. Could have happened, certainly, but it seems really unlikely. But here's another twist. When Coast Guardsmen Evans and Moffitt saw the water catcher at the Seven Site, that's all they saw (or remember), but when Laxton visited the site at least three years later, what he saw (or reported) was "a house built for Gallagher" on land that had been cleared from the lagoon to the ocean. The house could hardly have been built for Gallagher any later than 1941. So what's the deal? Was there perhaps a house built for Gallagher in 1940-41, which had fallen into ruin by 1946, that was then fixed up for some reason by 1949? LTM (who thinks there was a time warp) TK *************************************************************************** From Ric Ah yes, well, there is actually quite a bit of discrepancy between what Evans and Moffitt describe seeing in (best guess) September of 1944 and what we found in 1996. - Dick, Herb and "Race" McDonald were walking along the ocean beach, down close to the water where the sand is hard. They saw the "water collection device" up behind the vegetation line from there and went to investigate. That's consistent with where the tank appears to be, still up on the distilling plant framework, in the 1941 photo. Except, when the coasties saw the tank it was down on the ground with a tarp rigged up above it on poles so that rain water would drain into it. Moffitt remembered seeing the remains of a campfire, a rusted can with a makeshift wire handle, and bird bones and feathers nearby. Nobody saw a house. Sounds to me like the distilling plant frame got recovered back to the village but the tank stayed there, converted to a cistern, and the site may have been used for a while as a turtle/bird hunting camp. Evans and Moffitt et al didn't see the house because they didn't go far enough back into the bush. Hoever, SOME Coastie was back there at some time because we found an M-1 carbine shell casing on the ground. Later, the tank apparently got moved back beyond the house, closer to the lagoon shore, where we found it in 1996. Maybe that was done at the same time (post-Laxton) when the house was salvaged. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:01:19 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: small screen... What about the possibility that the screening was in rolls, and decayed to the point at which only one side of each roll, a couple of inches across and the length of the roll, was left? TK *************************************************************************** From Ric We did collect a small sample of the screening. Other than being green, it doesn't seem to be decayed at all. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:04:59 EDT From: Chuck Boyle Subject: Coast Guard Reunion This year's U. S. Coast Guard Construction and Operation in the S. Pacific Reunion will be held in Frankenmuth, Michigan on September the 14th, 15th, 16th and l7th. We will have in attendance several that were stationed on Gardner Island, Unit 92 the years of l944, 1945 or 1946. If you or anyone has any questions or comments they would like passed on to the group I will be glad to do it. Lee (Chuck) Boyle. 2060 *************************************************************************** From Ric Sure would be nice to do some video tape interviews. Any of our primary researchers feel like a visit to Michigan? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:09:02 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Did a Flood at the 7-Site Kill the Reef? Interesting exchange. What about a single overwash event during the rough weather of mid-late November 1940, facilitated by the fact that the area had been cleared for search purposes during late October-early November? Such an event might actually have terminated the search effort. TK *************************************************************************** From Ric How do we test the hypothesis? Would not an overwash sufficient to put that much sand on the reef have also wrecked a "house" that was still intact in 1949 or floated away a tank that was still there in 1944 and 1996? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:20:35 EDT From: Janet Whitney Subject: Electra's Receive Antenna Lost on Take-Off? I can find no report by anyone who was in Lae and saw Earhart's Electra take off that an antenna was lost from Earhart's Electra upon take-off. Janet Whitney ************************************************************************* From Ric Neither can I. If anyone had noticed it we probably woudn't be having this conversation. The evidence is in the film of the takeoff itself. See "The Lost Antenna" Research Bulletin at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/Bulletins/20_LostAntenna/20_LostAntenna.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:21:34 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: small screen... th' Wombat's on target as usual. Most houses in the village are three to five meters (say nine to fifteen feet) on a side. Gallagher's "Rest House" is of course much larger, but it's a public facility used not only as his residence but for visiting dignitaries and such. LTM (who'd prefer bigger digs) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:29:01 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Evidence at the Seven site I must have missed something. What's the evidence of a distilling plant at the Seven Site? TK ************************************************************************** From Ric Photographic. Take a look at the Research Bulletin entitled "The 7 Site" http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/Bulletins/23_SevenSite/23_SevenSite.html At the very end of the bulletin you'll see that there's something rather large and rectangular on the beach in 1941 that isn't there in earlier photos and looks an awful lot like the distilling plant in the New Zealand survey photos.