Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:23:30 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: communications Ric wrote, > I agree with > Tom King that Foua Tofinga is probably our best source to > clear this up. Still fairly convinced that Gallagher was using some sort of paper tape device to "code" his messages into morse before transmission, I agree that Foua Tofinga should be able to tell us what the term "coding" meant. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:29:28 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Crates Crate? Interesting. The Dutch call it a "kist", which is in fact the Dutch word for a "crate". And the Germans call it "eine Kiste", which is exactly the same. The Brits refer to it as a "kite" and strangely in Belgium Flemish speakers call it "een vlieger" in colloquial language, which means exactly the same as "a kite" in English. French flyers usually refer to their plane as a "bac", which again means "crate". It looks like everybody agrees on one thing : using their own words to describe the same thing while refraining from calling it an airplane. **************************************************************** From Ric Fascinating. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:40:17 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Ships and planes All this is exciting ! That explains why hovercraft are something everybody agrees on that they don't know what they are or in what category to put them. They are plying between the UK and the European continent, linking Calais and Dover. Yet they are considered neither boats nor airplanes. They come under maritime law as vessels, yet it takes a pilot's license to fly them. If you ever cross the Channel in one of them you'll discover that crossing the Channel in one is like crossing in a flying boat trying to take off without succeeding... When the bouncing stops, you've arrived at the other side... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:44:14 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: long range helicopters If you want to use a heavy lift helicopter like the Skycrane you may be interested to know that the Russians rent these things to anyone willing to pay. There are several Western European companies providing Russian heavy lift helicopters that are based on a Western European airfields on a permanent base. All you have to do is to pay the air fare for the pilots to come over from Russia (and then pay the hourly rate for the helicopter of course). But what's wrong with the good old PBY ? There are quite a few still around. They are not fast but they are very sturdy, have reliable engines and are good platforms for aerial photography. ***************************************************************** From Ric It's not impossible to fly to Niku - Skycrane, Russian helo, PBY, Grumman Albatross, probably other types as well. It just costs far more than going by ship. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:45:18 EDT From: Tet Walston Subject: Underrated Pilots. Whilst I agree that Eric Brown has a super record, let's look back to the time of Amelia. How many of you know of Jean Batten? She broke many records, and did not need a navigator! Nor did she get lost. I would also name Jimmy Doolittle, famous though he was, the aviation world seems to have forgotten that he was the pioneer, inventor perhaps, of Instrument Flying. He introduced the very instruments which made this possible, and at great risk to himself, learned their use, and taught others. I was lucky enough to have met him, way back in 1976. He was a very unassuming person, but had a great sense of humour. So, all considered, for female pilots, Jean Batten, for male pilots, Jimmy Doolittle, at least that's my opinion. LTM, Mother knows best. Tet Walston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:48:55 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: communications Jones, the administrator at Hull in 1937, complained vociferously to his company or the British (I forget at the moment) about the Lambrecht landing and later, a visit by the USCG. He also used coded messages, but apparently were intercepted by the US and decoded easily. We have those transcripts in the National Archives. There were many schemes for coding in those days, and most were not changed except once per year or two. Many words were coded into 5 digit sequences, and all one needed was the code book on each end. I suspect this is what was meant by "coding". But then again, I could easily be wrong. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:54:49 EDT From: Ric Subject: Re: communications <> But, of course, in 1937 Jones was not working for the WPHC. He was an overseer for Burns Philp South Seas Company. Do you recall who he was protesting on behalf of? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:02:14 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Gardner Communication Saturday night. By Monday there will be another dozen postings like this! I feel sure that radio communication on Gardner Island was done in the normal way: International Morse code transmitted and received "on the fly," as some have put it. It works so well that there would be no point in considering anything else. It ain't that difficult, and CW provides good communication under conditions such that voice transmission wouldn't have a chance. If there was no designated radio operator among the first on Gardner, then Gallagher must have done it. It was probably in his job description. That seems only reasonable. Would you send people off to a places like that without a means to communicate? Incidently, the "teletype" stuff with keyboards, typewriter-like printers, and paper-tape punches and readers, is more akin to our modems and computer terminals than to telegraph technology. It used a start bit, five data bits and a long stop bit, and it was all electro-mechanical -- mostly mechanical. A speed of 300 baud was considered pretty fast. Western Union used teletype for years and years. They quit using telegraph sometime before WWII. Of course, there was a period when they used some sort of printing on a paper strip and pasted cut up strips on the telegram forms. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:03:47 EDT From: Christian D Subject: Re: contingency plans Actually the Kiribati Govt has a Patrol Boat, donated and supported by Australia, if I remember correctly. They do occasionally visit the Phoenix; one of the reasons there is a big supply of diesel on nearby Kanton. Of course Kanton also has a bunch of bureaucrats in great need of semething to do; they have a representative of most Branches of the Govt, like Customs and a couple of cops... I don't think it far fetched to think they might put a few people on shore at Niku, to safeguard a major find. For many years the Kiribati Govt has been eager to find something useful to do with the Phoenix. Also: the Govt freighter servicing the Line Islands stops at the Kanton dock every few weeks, and detouring it to Niku would not be such a great expense. And they are experts at landing people and supplies with surfboats; that's what they do for a living at Wahsington Island which doesn't have a harbor or a lagoon either. Regards. Christian D. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:05:23 EDT From: G. Thomas Subject: pilot of the century Apologies for some minor imperfections and a slight error or two from my original message. Please accept this revised message. My vote for best pilot ever, and most underrated ,would be for Eric Brown of the RAF/RN , a WWII test pilot, universally recognised the world over as the most experienced pilot, having flown over 1,500 different aircraft and helicopter types , including the secret and experimental German WWII aircraft which he tested after the Germans surrendered, at various airfields stretching from Norway to the Baltic, including the Comet and ME 262, and the secret new float planes. He is still alive , having an unblemished flying record, a truly naturallly gifted pilot, whose contribution to war aviation and post war aviation was immeasurable, as , apart from successfully solving many problems with the fighter planes and early jets (incuding the German ones , namely the Comet which had killed so many pilots, ) where other British test pilots were tumbling to their deaths, he was also instrumental in the original concept and design of the angled flight deck and the signalling mirror system , and was the first pilot to land a twin-engined aircraft on an aircraft carrier, and the first to land a jet on an aircraft carrier, at the first attempt , without the need to go around again. One major episode that clearly demonstrates his wonderful natural abilities, is when, towards the end of WWII, the Yanks dumped a crate on the runway at Farnborough containing the newly fangled Sikorsky helicopter, but without a flying instructor or a mechanic /engineer to even assemble it. Although they had never even seen one before, Eric and his local British lads assembled it from the manuals that were left behind, and after reading the flying instructions he promptly flew it around the aerodrome for a few minutes to test it out before flying it directly to Croydon. He is the best by a long way. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:11:16 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: learning morse For what it may be worth, during the mid-50's, the U.S. Army's Intermediate Speed Radio Operator's school at Ft. Jackson, S.C., taught Morse code by sitting us in a small booth (headset on) listening to pre-recorded tapes of 'keyed' Morse code, for 8 hours a day, (chow break only) copying encrypted code groups of 5-letters each, at ever increasing speeds. We learned Morse 'phonetically", that is by the 'sound' each letter in Morse code made when it was 'keyed' & they even taught us a hand 'speed' printing method, (a faster way to print each letter of the alphabet) since we copied the encoded letter groups by hand, directly from the keyed Morse code on the tapes. We had to encode messages we were sending into coded 5-letter groups, by hand, using a little 'metal monster' encoding machine with usually 'well worn' code wheels that constantly 'jammed-up' & had to be changed each day (only to keep us from 'cheating' to speed things up, not because of any top secret information we were transmitting) & then we'd have to reverse the process for the messages we would be receiving. (Rather boring & tedious process to say the least!) Incidentally, when we were on 'in-the-field' exercises we used keys strapped to our leg & a partner operated a hand-cranked generator (no batteries) to provide the power for our transmitting the messages. Naturally, as the fatigue factor set in on the person cranking the generator (especially on long messages) the speed of our transmissions began to 'drag' accordingly, resulting in many 'send-agains' from the other end, as nothing was more difficult for the person receiving the message than to have the 'rhythm' of the sender's key interrupted or slowed down. Our instructor insisted that during our lifetimes, there were two things we would never forget, our service numbers & morse code. Unfortunately, some 40 odd years later, I can no longer remember either one, so I guess I was a very inept student & soldier! Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:16:45 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: lagoon passage depth There is a reason behind what is going to sound like a stupid question..... How deep are both passages into the lagoon? Obviously not deep enough for the expedition ship, and I assume "dry" at low tide. But at High tide is there a reasonable depth of water in either or both of them? RossD **************************************************************** From Ric Even at low tide there is about ten feet of water in each passage, although the main passage has many coral heads just below the surface. The problem is the outer portion of the reef which is dry at low tide and roughly four feet deep at high tide. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:22:41 EDT From: Andrew McKenna Subject: underrated aviators How about Santos Dumont from Brazil? First guy to pilot a lighter than air ship around the Eiffel Tower, and later in 1906 went on to invent several controllable heavier than air craft without knowlege of the Wright Bro's 1903 accomplishments. He is a hero in Brazil, but hardly known elsewhere. A McKenna 1045 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:23:45 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Crates and Kites From Ric: Actually, my favorite is the World War One term "crate." Or the World War Two British monicker, "kite." What a peaceful and gentle sounding word, conjuring up serene visions of slow and playful dips and slides among "the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds" -- all the while mounting eight .50-caliber machine guns and a 20mm cannon or two trying to kill someone. Yes, the irony of our language. LTM, who split a cloud or two in her time Dennis O. McGee #1049CE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:43:18 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: lagoon passage depth So you could feasably take a large catamaran into the lagoon, should one be available.. Most of them draw a couple of feet for about 38ft length.. RossD ***************************************************************** From Ric Yes, and a cat might be a good platform from which to do the sand bar exploration. We'd probably have to tow the thing to Niku, which would be okay as long as the seas stayed friendly, but there's never a guarantee of that. Or, if it could be broken down it might go aboard Nai'a. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:48:16 EDT From: George Mershon Subject: GPS Although I'm usually not political let's have three cheers for the President. Tonight at midnight the "Scramble" has been taken out of GPS (Global Position System). This means that this $95.00 instrument will be about ten times more accurate in telling us where we are on this shrinking Earth. I for one am very grateful for any help I can get in finding myself ! George Mershon **************************************************************** From Ric Hallelujah! That's great news for all of us who wander in the wilderness. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:57:37 EDT From: Bob Lee Subject: Re: communications I know this is a stretch but is there any chance that Americans military intercepted messages from Gallagher. If they did would there be any records in the national archives. Regards Bob Lee *************************************************************** From Ric Gosh - was the U.S. monitoring British colonial administrative radio traffic in 1937? Not that I know of, but we wouldn't necessarily know, would we? Are there volumes and volumes of intercepted traffic in the National Archives? Not that I know of, but I'm no expert on what is and isn't archived. Off the top of my head, the best indication we have that nothing like that happened is the fact that nobody on the American side of the equation seems to have had any idea that the Brits had found bones suspected of being Earhart's. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:01:33 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Santos Dumont I'm all in favor for Santos Dumont as well. He was flying around in his personal "dirigeable" airship, visiting friends, mooring it to their house when visiting them and using his ship as a personal transport long before the Piper Cub was invented, but he did pioneer heavier than air flying as well. However Brasilian he may have been, he is considered a Frenchman by French aviation historians becausehe lived in France. What counts with me is not that he was Brasilian or French, but that he flew. Herman ***************************************************************** From Ric Wilbur Wright spent a considerable amount of time in France in 1909 demonstrating his flying machine. I guess that makes him French. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:03:22 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: pilot of the century I agree with Eric Brown. He was a true "total aviation person" as one Brit aviation publication would call him. He also wrote down his experience with all these airplanes in one or two books. Can anyone tell me if these are still available ? For if they are, Id like to buy them. I saw one when it was first published, failed to buy it and ever regretted it. Here is one guy who had a lot of experience with a lot of airplanes and survived them all and is still around to tell their story. If anyone knows where I can get his books, please let me know. Herman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:17:32 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Passage depth << Even at low tide there is about ten feet of water in each passage, >> Huh? We've waded both passages. LTM (whose legs are not ten feet long) TKing *************************************************************** From Ric Where some of us have waded has been across the reef just outside the entrance of the passages. The lagoon passages themselves, both Tatiman and Bauareke, stay quite deep. Last summer we ferried back and forth across Tatiman every day commuting to and from work. It's deep and tricky, with a strong current flowing at all time except at "slack water" between tides. Coral heads are numerous and John Clauss, Master Pilot, had to back the launch across by turning the outboard around so that he could navigate around the obstacles that lurked just below the surface. We've never had occasion to plumb the depths of Bauareke Passage. It's much narrower and it's easy to just walk around it on the reef, but I've stood on the shore many times and you can't see the bottom in the passage itself. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:31:46 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: communications I checked my files for the exact circumstances of Jones' coded transmissions, and here is what I found. On May 4, 1939, the USS Pelican and Bushnell were surveying Hull Island. Harry Maude had also just arrived, and he and Jones went aboard the Pelican to protest the overflights of Hull. After being informed by the Commanding Officer that everything was taken care of in DC, "they left the ship all smiles and full of 'cheeri-o'". The Pelican monitored the British transmissions on 43 meters wavelength whenever possible, and copies two coded messages that Hull sent under "Urgent" classification right after Jones went ashore. In the letter from Paul Morrison (of the Pelican) to Capt. Whiting he states: "My own efforts to break them [the coded messages]] have failed thus far. If the Governor here at Samoa hasn't a cryptographer who can turn the trick I'll bring them home for Walstron to play with." Jones is identified by this time as being a Deputy Administrator, somewhat similar in position to Fleming on Canton Island. It appears that the British were indeed using coded morse code of some sort, as the Americans could not decipher the messages. Note that the date of May 4, 1939, is very contemporary of Gallagher's messages and coding. Hope this helps. LTM, who loves Cheerios. ***************************************************************** From Ric Thanks for checking that out. That makes more sense. It was not Lambrecht's landing in 1937 that Jones was protesting but the Pelican's mapping flights in 1939, by which time Jones was working for the British government. I agree that if Jones had some form of encryption available to him at Hull in May of 1939, it seems likley that Gallagher would have similar capability at Gardner in October of 1940. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:33:55 EDT From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: communications Bob Lee asked: <> There is a misconception that all government paperwork is archived. A lot is thrown away. Some is classified, and not accessible. The toughest part of locating something in the national Archives is in knowing if it is there, then finding it. There are a lot of records that are not indexed. Dan Postellon TIGHAR 2263 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 13:53:43 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: communications Randy Jacobson wrote, > I checked my files for the exact circumstances of Jones' > coded transmissions... Of course, an urgent, encrypted message sent off by a British administrator on Hull while a US military vessel is anchored nearby, mapping the area, does not indicate that encryption was routine for Gallagher on Gardner, but does make it appear that encryption would have been available to him. I still have a hard time imagining Gallagher pounding out encrypted morse by hand on a routine basis: Time consuming, and prone to error. It'll be interesting to solve this one. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:23:29 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Re: communications It appears from this mornings posting that messages, at least part of them, were in code. As I had assumed in my first posting about "another means of commuication", I thought that messages about the strictly confidential or "strictly secret" discovery of the "bones" would not be broadcast across the Pacific for anyone to hear. I also note that Gallagher's 9th progress report carries a note "Enclosure No. I. in Western Pacific despatch Confidential of 23rd October, 1941". Assuming this is accurate, is there any possibility that this material, and possible the bones themselves were brought under the British Official Secrets Act. I have read that there are many items, even pre-dating WWII that the Brits claim are still covered under the Act, and in most situations, if they are covered, no one will talk about them or disclose the files or their contents. To what agency was the "Western Pacific despatch" forwarded to? Was this in anyway diplomatic traffic that the British Foreign Office would have classified? ***************************************************************** From Ric Very sharp eyes Mr. Muenich. My compliments. Knowing what we know now, that little notation does look very suspicious but, fortunately, we do have a copy of the confidential despatch sent to London on 23 October 1941. It is addressed to "The Right Honourable, the Secretary of State for the Colonies" and reads as follows: My Lord, With reference to the Assistant High Commissioner's Confidential (2) despatch of the 2nd May I have the honour to forward progress reports for the quarters ended 31st December, 1940, and 31st March, 1941, on Colonial Development Scheme No. 531 - Phoenix Islands Settlement - submitted by the late Mr. G.B. Gallagher, the Officer then in charge of the Scheme. 2. These reports reveal some small setbacks to the progress of the settlement scheme, due to abnormal weather conditions and difficulties of shipping, which are, however, not of any serious nature; but it is particularly unfortunate at this stage that the scheme should have been deprived of the wise and energetic guidance of the late Mr. G. B. Gallagher whose tragic death has recently been reported to Your Lordship. I have the honour to be, My Lord, Your Lordship's most obedient, humble servant H. C. Luke (signature) It does not appear that Sir Harry ever let the matter of the bones get beyond his own jusidiction. None of the files that we eventualy found in England was ever classified in any official sense. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:44:30 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Radio Monitoring Bob Lee asks if anyone (CIA!) was monitoring Gallagher. Maybe a better question is did the Japanese monitor Itasca-Amelia and if so are there any radio messages in the archives hidden below Tokyo? The Japanese Navy certainly was out and about in the area at the time and surely must have heard that traffic. Maybe there is "secret" radio stuff re Amelia's postion and subsequent "capture". A daunting task for those forum members in Japan to review naval traffic. How do you say "running low on gas" in Japanese? Would any of there ships been capable enought to get a DF. RAdio experts please. *************************************************************** From Ric I've yet to see anything to indicate that the Japanese Navy was out and about in the area at the time. There is a huge misconception fostered by the Conspiracy Crowd that the Central Pacific was a hotbed of IJN activity in July 1937. It has even been alleged that Earhart was shot or forced down by aircraft from the carrier Akagi (which was in drydock for refit all through that period). In response to an official U.S. request for help, two IJN vessels - the survey ship "Koshu" and the seaplane tender "Kamui" (usually incorrectly cited as the "Kamoi) were supposedly sent to the Marshalls to search for any sign of Earhart but that wasn't until weeks after the disappearance. We're not sure about the Koshu but the logs of Kamui show that she was way back near Japan in early July. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:49:08 EDT From: Paul Chattey Subject: Re: communications Dan Postellon's excellent summary of the task of finding records in the National Archives is both perfectly accurate and blissfully short. I can only add that research at the archives is an amazingly specialized task, not difficult, just complicated by learning to decipher what is and isn't there, finding where to look, and asking the right questions. There is, fortunately, a staff of professional archivists and each has developed a thorough awareness of what is in at least one group of records. I was last there to research buildings at Fort Huachuca, AZ, founded in 1877. I met with one such archivist who asked "how long do you have for this?" "Two weeks," I said, to which he instantly replied, "you'll need twice that!" Sure enough, I soon had everything I could want and spent a small fortune making copies. What made it worth while was that the post didn't have any of the records I was given (it had been closed twice and re-opened three times) so my clients were delighted to regain their history of Apache scouts, buffalo soldiers, and WPA architecture. Hmmm, their web site has a very good search engine, I think I'll do a little searching now for these messages. Paul Chattey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:51:47 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: lagoon passage depth I'm suggesting something around 38ft, sail and diesel powered. The kind of yacht you sail round the world. A catamaran could sail to Niku, hang around outside waiting for the ideal weather, then make its way through the entrance (avoiding coral heads) and be the HQ for the operation. Beats the hell out of a monohull in the tropics. For what TIGHAR has spent on hiring a ship, they could have bought an ocean going cat, used it for expeditions, chartered it out in the off times, and sold it once the proof or otherwise of Earhart's fate was found.. RossD **************************************************************** From Ric I'm not about to sail to Niku in a 38 ft anything. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:52:59 EDT From: Tet Walston Subject: Nomenclature As my old mate Bill Shakespeare wrote "That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet" Yes, we Brits (I'm a WW2 Veteran -- Spitfire pilot, no less) and we called our flying machines "Kites". However, the official noun used was "Aircraft", which I think is much more appropriate than "Airplanes". One of the delightful changes in our reporting came after the United States became involved in the War. We used the term "U/S'" meaning UNSERVICEABLE. and had to change it to "Repair Required". The expression "Most" meaning just that, became clouded by the U,S. meaning "Most" which was a corruption of AL most. And yet, we won the War!! LTM, who was bi-lingual!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:55:39 EDT From: Max Standridge Subject: ships and airships "...My grandparents were early aviators (back when homebuilt was the only way to fly one) and the mystery of "ship" was explained to me. Back then, the "flying boats", as they were called, were an enigma and no one knew how to regulate them. Since they landed on water and were often much more seaworthy than airworthy, in most countries maritime law ruled ruled them: hence, they were called "ships". Aircraft remained a confusing mode of transport that took many years to figure just how to categorize them" Well, never forget, too, that back then AEROPLANES were mere TOYS compared to their huge "relatives" the rigid (dirigible) airships. I mean, up until just not long before Amelia's demise, if you planned to fly around the world, you hopped a lighter-than-air SHIP, where you could gracefully look down through the bottom level windows and watch the world go by, possibly sipping brandy, maybe dancing--but hopefully NOT lighting up a smoke (end of world: see Hindenburg disaster of 1937, Amelia's bad year, too). Back then, approaching any dignified gentlemen about aerial travel would have brought a response along the lines of "AEROPLANES?! Surely not--AIRSHIPS--now, there's the way to travel. Comfort, luxury, grace." Indeed, Amelia was bucking more than one tradition about flying around the world being possible in an aeroplane. Noisy, rickety, landing like a jeep rides...much nicer to gracefully lift into the air with hydrogen gas to see you through. Though again--don't light up a smoke! LTM (who isn't a gas bag herself), Max Standridge ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:18:20 EDT From: Terry Ann Linley Subject: Security The November 1999 issue (Vol. 48, No. 11) of Skin Diver magazine gave an excellent summary of TIGHAR's efforts on Niku. This summer (June/July 2000), the owner and crew of Nai'a will conduct an underwater diving/research expedition of the Phoenix Islands (including Nikumaroro). What happens if they find hard evidence of AE/FN? Are they free to present their find to the world - thereby taking credit for solving the world's greatest aviation mystery - or does TIGHAR have an agreement with Nai'a Expeditions? Just curious. LTM (who likes credit given where it's due!), Terry Ann Linley (0628) ***************************************************************** From Ric It's a fair question. The owner and crew of Nai'a are our friends and some are TIGHAR members. They understand the security issues and have no desire to steal anyone's thunder. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:34:21 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: radio reports Without trying to raise your blood pressure beyond 160 points, Goerner's book, page 308 quotes a US Navy message in the Earhart "file" which states: "At 1030, the morning of the diappearance, Nauru Island radio station picked up Earhart on 6210 kcs saying, 'Land in sight ahead.'" Is this a valid message which has been confirmed and if so, does it fit within the time/distance calculations for TIGHAR's hypothisis for arrival at Nikumaroro? ***************************************************************** From Ric I dearly wish I could say that the "Land in sight ahead" message reported by Goerner is legitimate but that does not seem to be the case. Goerner later elaborated on that message in correspondence. He said that he and an associate saw it in classified Navy files they were permitted to see, but not photocopy, in the 1960s. Later, after the files were declassified, the message was gone. He speculates that someone reviewing the file prior to declassification assumed that the message was a corruption of the "ship in sight ahead" message reported heard by Nauru the night before, and deleted it from the file. Unfortunately, that explanation doesn't wash. All of the transmissions heard by various stations and thought to possibly be from the lost flight were reported in multiple formats. Purging one particular message would not be a matter of changing one document, but several documents. For example, the intercepts reported by Nauru appear independently in the Itasca radio log, Thompson's "Radio Transcripts Eahrart Flight, the radio transcripts of the 14th Naval District, and in a separate telegram sent to the State Department. None of these make any mention of a "Land in sight" message nor do the original documents show any sign of having been altered. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 15:39:20 EDT From: Roger Kelley Subject: Re: GPS Re: GPS accuracy. I took 1/2 mile a walk through my neighborhood with my GPS and noted a EPE of 3 ft. Previously the EPE was between 50 and 200 ft depending how many satellites were locked onto and how fast I was moving. During this exercise, I locked onto satellite #05, 06, 10 & 24 and was moving at 3.2 mph. When the track screen was set at 0.1 mile, I received a good, solid track which was easy to trace returning home. With an EPE of only 3 ft. and out in the wilderness, coming and going foot prints would be almost on top of each other. When in a fixed position, the elevation averaging is now + - 40 ft. However, the evelation appears to be reading on the low side about -20 or -30 ft. A little off topic, but interesting. LTM, (who seldom really knows where she is) Roger Kelley #2112 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 15:44:19 EDT From: Kerry Tiller Subject: Re: Radio Monitoring In 1937 the Japanese government (less than a year old, after the 1936 coup) had their hands full on mainland Asia. They had not yet turned any real attention to the Pacific Islands. The purpose of the 1941 raids on Pearl Harbor and Cavete (Philippines) was to cripple the U.S. naval presence in the region before expanding into Southeast Asia and the Pacific Islands. At any rate, I have some contacts in the JMSDF (Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force), I can at least find out what kind of archival material exists and how accessible it is. I doubt anything still exists here in Japan that the occupation boys under MacArthur hadn't seen or that was destroyed before they had a chance to. LTM Kerry Tiller (2350) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 08:44:21 EDT From: Christian Subject: Re: shallow draft vessels > I'm not about to sail to Niku in a 38 ft anything. If 38ft is too small for the whole crew, make it 45ft, and have two of them. Supporting two different locations on Niku... If getting there in a 45ft anything is not OK, have the cats based in Kanton, and have most of the Tighar crew fly to Tarawa or Xmas, and then ride the Kiribati Government freighter to Kanton... ?!?!?! Just a few thoughts... Christian D. ***************************************************************** From Ric And how would you get the cats to Kanton? And how would you get the rest of the team and gear to Tarawa to catch the Kiribati freighter (whose schedule is almost as unpredictable as air service to Tarawa)? Our expeditions can not run on "island time." Our people have lives and jobs they can't be away from indefinitely. The operation has to click. I realize that there are people who sail all over the Pacific in little tiny boats, but we are not sailors and we're not out to have adventures. When we run an expedition to Niku the first priority is always safety (Old TIGHAR Saying No. 427 "It is never worth hurting live people to search for dead ones.") The second priority is getting the work done efficiently, which means keeping the team as comfortable, clean and well fed as possible. Those priorities are best served by the biggest, most comfortable boat we can reasonably afford. ***************************************************************** From Simon #2120 Ric wrote:- >I'm not about to sail to Niku in a 38 ft anything. Well, Long et al. would have us believe Amelia "sailed" in a 38ft "boat" :-) ***************************************************************** From Ric Yeah, and he doesn't think it turned out very well. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:04:38 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Lagoon Passage I have read with interest the recent postings on the depth of the two channels into the lagoon. If I understand correctly Tatiman Passage may be as much as 10 feet deep and Bauareke Passage approximately 4 feet, although the latter is not as important to this theory Depending on how it is measured, the S.S. Norwich City appears to be about 1/2 mile to the Northwest of the passage. From the recent postings it appears that the reef area occupies most of this distance and at some point as you enter the passage, the water depth suddenly drops off anywhere from six to ten feet. I noted in Gallagher's 9th report that a severe storm(s) came in the fall/winter, out of the northwest. I also believe that I have read various postings which indicate that the prevailing weather is from the Northwest during the fall/winter period. I also note that Gallagher states the Nov./Dec. storms of 1940 were strong enough to cause "A small area of land [to be] washed away and the course of the Southern lagoon passage altered.". I presume this refers to Bauareke Passage. I also note that Gallagher states "the greater part of the damage . . . . was caused by the exceptional tides which were swept into the lagoon by the high winds. . . .". If the storms are severe enough to eventually dimantle the S.S. Norwich City, they would be strong enough to "roll" ("sweep") heavier aircraft parts, i.e. engines, spars, landing gear, etc. along the reef until they "fell" off the reef into the passage. Being heavy however, they would not continue to "float" along to come at rest in the lagoon, the sandbar, or other distant areas, but should sink immediately into the depths of the passage itself, much like the debris that accumulates at the base of a waterfall. It would appear that this is an area that should be carefully examined upon the next expedition. ***************************************************************** From Ric I agree with your description and analysis up to a point. The model provided by the Norwich City clearly shows that debris is driven by major weather events from NW to SE and thence into the lagoon passage. The distance a particular piece of wreckage travels seems to be inversely proportional to its mass,surface area, and buoyancy (if any). In other words, a heavy concentrated chunk like the anchor capstan doesn't go far at all. There's a big section of the hull which, although it must weigh several tons, also presents a large surface area to the waves and has, therfore, been driven far down the beach toward the passage. Objects such as tanks which actually float were driven through the passage and into the lagoon and are now at varous points along the lagoon shore. The passage itself is like a venturi. If you'll look at the map you'll notice that its shape resembles nothing so much as the classic NACA air scoop for an aircraft. Aerial photos show that the bottom in this area is scored by striations, probably caused by material (natural or otherwise) being swept into the lagoon. The forces in the passage itself are considerable during normal tidal cycles. What they must be like during storm events can only be imagined. We had divers in the passage at slack water last summer. Not surprisingly, it's clean as a whistle. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:09:20 EDT From: Bob Lee Subject: Re: dado Re plane interior: Is there any information related to who did the interior work on the Electa 10 models? Did Lockheed do the work or were the planes taken to an interior specialist? Bob Lee ***************************************************************** From Ric As far as we know, all of the work was done by Lockheed. The airplane was signed off after the repairs were completed at Burbank on May 19. The very next day AE and FN began the second world flight attempt. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:20:02 EDT From: David Evans Katz Subject: Re: Radio monitoring Disregarding any conspiracy theories, does anyone out there know if any of the Japanese ships (i.e., the Koshu and Komui) picked up any of AE's pre-20:13 transmissions, and if so, did they log them? I wonder if they may have heard any post 20:13 transmissions. David Evans Katz **************************************************************** From Ric As we've said, we know of no Japanese ships in the area at the time of disappearance. If ships were present, in order to have overheard anything they would have had to be monitoring those specific frequencies at those particular times. If by any chance they did hear anything they didn't report it to the Americans and, unless I am greatly mistaken, the prewar daily radio logs of Japanese ships have not been archived. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:22:11 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: pilot of the century Thanks to the many on the forum who reacted to my enquiry about Eric Brown's book "Wings on my sleeve". The nearest shop has now been located and the book ordered. I understand it's on its way already. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:28:09 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Off-topic Lockheed Is there anyone who wants to buy Amelia Earhart's Lockheed Electra ? The airplane is for sale, believe it or not. Well, it's not THE Lockheed 10E, but a look-alike (and smaller) 12A that was used in the 1970 film about Amelia Earhart. The airplane was also used in a film on Howard Hughes and in Warner Bros' "Doc Savage". It is a rare bird and it is special because it has played a major role in WW II history for it was used for cladestine reconnaissance flights by Sydney Cotton (the guy whowas a forerunner of the U-2) in flights over Germany and Italy in 1939. It was the third 12A built and was initially delivered to the Continental Oil Company in Oklahoma on October 3, 1936. It was then sold to Sydney Cotton and shipped to on the SS Aquitania in April 1939 to be re-assembled at Eastleigh (Southampton) where it had two extra 70 (Imperial) gallon fuel tanks added for better range Secret fuselage hatches were installed fiding two F.24 camera's at Heston. The aircraft was registered G-AFTL to British Airways (not the British airline of that name today but a pre-WW III namesake). On June 14 G-AFTL left Heston for Malta to make secret photographs of military targets in Sicily and later in Italian Somaliland. Back in Heston on July 15, new Leica camera's were installed in the wings and flights were made to Germany. During some unsuspecting German VIPs were carried and shown interesting sights of their country... Back came Sydney Cotton with film of Hamburg and Berlin. The airplane was damaged by a German bomb in September 1939 and was sent back to Lockheed Burbank for repairs. After the war it had several owners and was used in several Hollywood films. The historic Lockheed is currently registered N12EJ and is owned by one Steve Oliver. Should any AE fan on the forum be interested : contact pepsiteam@aol.com. Or call Steve Oliver direct (001) 303 697 9440 between 0900 and 2100 (American Mountain Time). **************************************************************** From Ric It does sound like an aircaft with an historic past but it is by no stretch of the imagination related to Amelia Earhart and is totally off-topic for this forum. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:31:29 EDT From: Ric Subject: comic relief Tom King passed along the link to this cartoon. Enjoy. http://cgi.dnai.com/~fillmore/cgi-bin/sviewer.pl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:38:28 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Review of "The Shadow of Wings" June Knox-Mawer's Earhart book, THE SHADOW OF WINGS (Weidenfeld and Nicolson, London, 1995) is a romance novel, and an entertaining read. It's of interest to Earhart researchers for a couple of reasons: 1. Knox-Mawer lived in Fiji for a number of years in the twelve years in the 50s and 60s, and she provides a fairly detailed portrait of the expatriate community there at the time. This was a time when the mysterious bones from Nikumaroro may well have still been hanging around somewhere, and it's interesting to have a view of the situation from the standpoint of the community that's most likely to have known something about them. 2. Knox-Mawer creates a story about Earhart's disappearance that's technically accurate (for example in its representation of the radio traffic between Earhart and Itasca) and that (amazingly) manages to reconcile virtually ALL the various hypotheses about the disappearance. The novel's central character is Laura Harrington, a BBC correspondent who as a child was whisked away from her birthplace, a remote atoll in Kiribati, in advance of the Japanese invasion. She's grown up in England while her father, a WPHC District Officer now renowned as a Pacific historian, lives in Fiji; the two have little contact, and all Laura knows of her mother is that she died before the Japanese invaded. Laura travels to Fiji to meet her father and try to find out what happened to her mother -- and to rendezvous with her lover, the lawyer scion of a grand old expatriate planter family. Along the way she also has a romantic interlude with a Fijian political leader who I think is probably modeled on President Ratu Mara. Her father -- whose background (but hardly character) seems to be derived from a sort of combination of Harry Maude and Maude's mentor Sir Arthur Grimble-- turns out to be a truly evil person, who obviously has something to hide. Most of the book is about Laura's discovery of the truth. Which, of course, is that her mother is Earhart, who is still alive in a Kiribati convent, and that her father isn't the awful Dr. Harrington at all but George Putnam. So how does Knox-Mawer account for the disappearance and fill in its aftermath? Thus: 1. Earhart (who is pregnant and deeply regretful about her poor knowledge of Morse and her decision to discard the trailing antenna) and Noonan (with the smell of whiskey on his breath) are unable to establish radio communication with Itasca, and can't see Howland in the glare of the rising sun. 2. Noonan tells Earhart to fly north along the LOP, but Earhart is exhausted and rebellious and flies south. 3. Noonan says OK, we'll aim for the Phoenix Islands, and they do, but they run out of gas and crash and sink. Noonan is killed. BUT they crash and sink very close to Niku, where Earhart is washed up. She has completely lost her memory, but survives, crawling up into the Scaevola (or something) and creating a "bivouac" a la Bevington. Oh, she's lost a shoe by this time, too (Knox-Mawer's book was written after TIGHAR's shoe discovery but before Gallagher's telegrams turned up). 4. Scouting the islands for PISS colonization, the evil Harrington and his trusty I Kiribati assistant come ashore on Niku and find Earhart. Harrington has been out in the islands a long time and is nuttier than your average coco plantation; he decides, in essence, to keep Earhart as his sex slave. 5. Which he does, until the Japanese invade, whereupon he abandons her, concocts the story of her death, and -- YES, she's captured by the Japanese! After some difficult times she's befriended by an American-educated Japanese officer (who eventually commits hara-kiri as the Americans invade) and lodged as a lay sister in a Catholic nunnery. 6. Where she lives on, still amnesiac though fascinated by electric fans and strangely frightened of overflying aircraft, until Laura finds her. Laura's lover then flies to the island in a small yellow airplane, and voila, memory is restored, Laura goes back to Fiji and confronts her non-father, etc. etc. OK, so she doesn't get Earhart to Saipan, or Mili, or the Philippines, New Jersey, or the Delta Quadrant, and the British connection is not quite as Donahue portrays it, and of course she doesn't account for the skeleton under the Niku ren tree, but hey, reconciling the Crashed and Sank, Nikumaroro, Japanese Capture, and Survival on an Island hypotheses -- not to mention Pregnant Earhart and Alcoholic Noonan -- is an accomplishment not to be sniffed at. And Harrington's rest house, like Gallagher's on Niku, even has a "thunderbox" bathroom. The book's hard to get in the U.S.; Amazon.com found it for me used (I don't know about sleepless) in Seattle. It will become a part of the TIGHAR library at TIGHAR Central in Wilmington. And Knox-Mawer, who obviously did a lot of research for the book and seems to have some very interesting contacts -- is someone we'd very much like to find and talk with. LTM (who's a sucker for romance novels) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:44:26 EDT From: Tom King Subject: More from Knox-Mawer I just received another June Knox-Mawer book, this one a slim paperback published in 1986 entitled "Tales from Paradise: Memories of the British in the South Pacific" (Ariel Books 1986). It's derived from a series that K-M did on BBC in the same year. I've only flipped through it; besides encountering some old friends (Eric Bevington, Sir Leonard Usher), I see with considerable interest that one of her major sources of information was Sir Ronald Garvey -- to whose Acting Resident Commissionership Sir Harry Luke proposed to second Gallagher in 1941. Here's her (p. 132) summary on him: Sir Ronald Garvey, KCMG, KCVO, MBE. Born 1903. Joined Colonial Administrative Service 1926 as cadet, attached to Western Pacific High Commission, Suva. District Officer Solomon Islands 1927-32. Assistant Secretary WPHC1932-40. Acting Resident Commissioner, Gilbert and Ellice Islands Colony and New Hebrides Concominium. Governor and Commander-in-Chief Fiji 1952-8. Author of "Gentleman Pauper." The bibliography lists "Gentleman Pauper" as having been published in1984 by Anchor, Bognor Regis. A quick skim has revealed nothing directly pertinent to Earhart, Niku, or the bones, but here's something: "Ronald Garvey was sent by government to Ocean Island to put the Gilbert andEllice colony 'on a wartime footing', and in December 1941 he found inself in the firing line right at the opening of hostilities. 'It was the day that the Japanese attacked the fleet in Pearl Harbour. By 8 a.m. two or three planes were coming down from the Japanese mandated islands tothe north. Having spotted Ocean Island, and I suppose the Union Jack flying in front of the Residency, they decided they'd betterbomb it. They pattern-bombed my residence with about eighteen bombs. I escaped with a superficial wound. I think I was the only person who ever shed a drop of blood in the dayswhen I was in charge of Ocean Island, before we had to evacuate it.' Anyhow, when the Japanese planes had left we walked round the residency, which was a sorry sight. The upstairs was blown downstairs, and the downstairs was blown upstairs, butthere was one thing which tremendously impressed all the natives. In the dining-room hung a large portrait of King George VI, and whatever else the Japanese bombs may have achieved, that picture was on the wall utterly and absolutely intact. Right from the start this gave the local people the firm impression that nothing would defeat the King" (p. 101). I imagine that Sir Ronald has passed on, but he may well have left papers. I'll see if Sir Ian Thomson has any leads on where these might be, but some of our British colleagues might want to see what they can find in the meantime. If he was Assistant Secretary in 1940, he may well have known of the bones discovery, and might be the source of K-M's association of Earhart with Niku. LTM (who sadly acknowledges no relationship to George VI) TKing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:46:17 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: GPS Archeologists all over are cheering the improvements in GPS. For comparison with the results some Forumers are getting, here's a piece from American Cultural Resource Association (ACRA) list. It sure looks like this is going to make life easier on Niku. LTM Tom King Subj: GPS after dithering Now that Selective Availability has been eliminated from civilian signals, our GPS units are more accurate, but how much more accurate? I've taken 10 sets of readings over the past few days and will be taking others; I thought that ACRA-lytes would like to know my initial results. By way of comparison, just before the change I took a set of measurements indicating that in practice, the average on-the-ground position error for a non-differential GPS reading was 30 meters. So far, it looks like occasional oddball readings are still possible, but that about 95 percent of your readings will get you within 18.0 meters of your true position. You will be 9.0 meters or less from that position, two-thirds of the time. For those who have a Garmin with the averaging function, as I do, there is other good news. That function didn't seem to work well when SA was on, but with SA off and averaging on (and eliminating my one oddball reading) the on-the-ground position standard deviations are 5.5 m/67% confidence interval and 11.03 m/95% confidence interval. These are preliminary numbers and a very small sample, but so far there does seem to be reason to celebrate. In practice you will probably get a reading within 10 meters of your true position, more often than not, without differential corrections. Dave Phillips Albuquerque, NM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:47:44 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Radio Monitoring To Kerry Tiller, I ran across a masterfully researched book on the history of Japanese submarine warfare activities from c. 1936 to Pearl Harbor,including the various Japanese attacks on US mainland on the West Coast. Although not at my hands at this message, the author describes a lot of activity from the Japanese in the Marshalls,Gilberts etc, I shall go back and forward anything of value re radio capabilities, activities, codes, etc that may,altho doubtful, apply to Amelia flying from Lae to Howland. Sounds like the US navy was kept out of that area during this period. Who knows what danger lurks in the heart of the Pacific. Ron Bright Tighar #2342 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:01:46 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Word from Sir Ian Thomson I thought others on the Forum might enjoy the following transcript of a hand written aerogramme dated 19 April 2000, just received from Sir Ian Thomson. Sir Ian was Sir Harry Luke's Aide-de-Camp. TK Dear Dr. King, Many thanks for sending to me with your letter of 3 April a copy of your journal "TIGHAR Tracks" Volume 15, which I found most interesting. There are very few people alive to-day who have set foot on Nikumaroro, and I count myself fortunate to have been one of them. I am glad to note that you have been in contact with Michael Luke, and I wish you well with the examination of Sir Harry's official papers in St. Anthony's College, Oxford. I note in "TIGHAR Tracks" that Sir Harry has been described as "redoubtable." Yes, he was a valiant man as well as being kind, generous, and learned. He ranks in the "Top Ten" of the people with whom I have been associated in the course of my life. I was with Sir Harry when he stood by Gerald Gallagher's grave to pay his respects and to honour his (G's) memory and work. I think that I mentioned to you in an earlier letter that Gerald had stayed in Government House, Suva, shortly before he died. Unfortunately, I have no recollection of the conversations that I had with him at that time, save that I remember him as a pleasant and conscientious fellow, who was clearly devoting himself to the task of assisting the islanders' resettlement in the Phoenix Group from the over-populated Gilbert Islands. It may be unfashionable to-day to be praiseworthy about British colonial policies and practices, but for those of us who chose to be involved in such administration, I can say with a clear conscience that it was not imperialism that dictated our actions. It was, in fact, the desire to assist the indigenous people in their efforts to improve living standards by developing the country and economy without disturbing the social fabric and customs, and encourage them to live peacefully by the rule of law, promoting the use of dialogue in place of martial confrontation to solve problems with neighbors. Gerald Gallagher was in that mould. I send you and your TIGHAR team my congratulations on your efforts so far, and I wish you all well as you plan for your next visit to Nikumaroro in 15 months time. Sincerely, Ian Thomson **************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Tom. It's genuinely touching when we connect with those who were there. Maude, Bevington, Thomson, all good men. As Sir Ian says, although now much derided, many did heed Kipling's call to "...send forth the best ye breed. Go, bind your sons in exile to serve your captives' need." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:04:08 EDT From: Bill Moffet Subject: Early women pilots The following arrived from http://www.rootsweb.com It's in their "Missing Links, Rootsweb's Genealogy Journal" vol. 5, No. 18, 3 May 2000: LETTERS TO THE EDITOR For a book on the 1929 Women's Air Derby, which will be the basis for a major exhibit on women and aviation at the Autry Museum of Western Heritage in the summer of 2003, I am researching the lives of these women pilots: Florence Lowe "Pancho" Barnes, Marvel Crosson, Amelia Earhart (Putnam), Ruth Elder (Moody Womack Camp Gillespie Thackeray King -- aka Susan Thackeray), Claire Breeden (Adams) Fahy, Edith Magalis Foltz (Stearns), May (aka Mary) Hayes Haizlip, Opal Logan Giberson Kunz, Jessie Maude "Chubbie" (aka Mrs. Keith) Miller, Ruth Nichols, Blanche Wilcox Noyes, Gladys O'Donnell, Phoebe Fairgrave Omlie, Neva Finlay Paris, Margaret Gilbert Perry (Cooper Manser), Thea Rasche, Louise McPhetridge Thaden, Bobbi Trout, Mary Elizabeth von Mach, and Vera Dawn Walker. I would most appreciate hearing from anyone who is related to, or knew, these pilots, and am very interested in obtaining letters, diaries, memorabilia, photographs, unpublished manuscripts or any other material pertaining to them or their families. Jayne Loader loader@earthlink.net or ejl@mediaone.net 21 Ellsworth Avenue, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139 Ric, I'm simply passing this on for whatever use/interest it may be to you or TIGHAR. Is this the roster of the original 99's? Really wonder how 'Gillespie' got into Ruth Elder's pedigree. Did she have 6 husbands? LTM (who apparently had lots of girl friends) Bill Moffet #2156 ***************************************************************** From Ric I never laid a hand on her. i swear. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:06:52 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Lae takeoff film Does anyone have any idea how I might print a few frames from RealPlayer? I have AMELIA_3.RM downloaded. It runs fine and I can pause it anywhere for a still image. But RealPlayer offers no opportunity to print or to save in any fashion. It seems it should not be difficult to print what is static on the screen -- like, print from display memory. Too bad "print screen" doesn't work in WINDOWS. I would like to print perhaps a half-dozen frames showing how Fred was "poured into the plane" that morning. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:12:18 EDT From: LF Subject: Fred Noonan, Secret Agent You know: everybody always talks about Amelia possibly being on a spy mission. Maybe she wasn't, and Fred was and never informed her. Remember, he was the one informing her of their locations. Maybe he lied to her when they neared Howland and that is why no one could find them on the line of location that she said they were running North and South. Remember, she had been flying all night by this time and was surely near the point of exhaustion. Want he sent up to her, probably didn't register to her as "being sightly off the path". One will never know. LF **************************************************************** From Ric We're not reaching everyone. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:28:14 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Lae takeoff film This is for Vern: if you have Paint Shop Pro (or, I assume, one of the other good graphics programs), they do have an image capture function which will allow you to capture what's actually on your screen. Ric, I've been meaning to mention this for a long time, but never got around to it, and besides, somebody else probably already has and I just missed it, but in the "photographs" section of the website, in the aerial picture of Niku, in the lower left part of the picture, isn't that AE's ghost's face looking into the camera? Seems like a "sign" that Niku's the right place to me! (Unbelievers will probably think it's just a reflection in the airplane window). ltm, jon 2266 **************************************************************** From Ric I see what you mean. Pretty spooky. It's either AE, Linda Finch, or Emperor Hirohito - I can't be sure which. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:29:09 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: Early women pilots To Bill Moffett I suggest you contact the new International Women's Air and Space Museum (IWASM) at Burke Lakefront Airport, Cleveland, Ohio. There is a elaborate article on it in the May issue of AEROPLANE. They should be sitting on the information you're looking for. By the way, the museum keeps a hairlock of Amelia Earhart and also has (one of) her flying suit(s)n plus memorabilia of dozens of women flyers. I don't know if they have a website. Should expect so but haven't tried it. Should all fail, then try and send a fax to Lydia Matharu. She is in charge of General Enquiries at AEROPLANE. The number is : 44-20 7261 5668. If anyone can help you, can I suppose. Good luck ! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:31:53 EDT From: Mark White Subject: Re: Lae takeoff film One way to "Print screen" in Windows (95/98/NT) is to copy the screen to the clipboard. This is done by pressing Control-Alt-Print Scrn keys simultaneously. Then open an accessory included with windows such as Paint. Do an Edit paste and that takes the info from the clipboard. Now you use Paint to print. BTW... While Ctrl-Alt-Print Scrn copies the active window to the clipboard, Control-Print Scrn without the ALT copies the Whole screen to the clipboard. LTM Mark White #2129 ***************************************************************** From Frank Westlake If you are using MS Windows you can copy a bitmap image of the current application into the clipboard by pressing ALT-PRINTSCREEN. After doing that switch to an application that can use bitmaps (Word Perfect, Word, Paint, etc.) and select Paste|Special and choose the bitmap. Frank Westlake. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:33:36 EDT From: Birch Matthews Subject: Post-loss Radio Transmissions From Birch Matthews To Bob Brandenburg I was just reviewing my copy of "Tighar Tracks," Volume 15, 1999, and note that under hypothesis 3, one of the supporting pieces of evidence refers to your report on radio propagation. Two questions come to mind and I wonder if you would comment. 1. The post-loss signals were heard on 6210 kc. Why would these signals be heard when none were heard on this frequency during the assumed flight from Howland to Gardner? 2. Do you happen to know if aircraft radio specifications of 1936-1937 vintage included shock and vibration requirements? My perception is that any controlled or semi-controlled landing would impart one or more relatively high g loads to the vacuum tubes in the radio. Best regards, Birch Matthews ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:46:10 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Artifacts Again reading, in more detail, vol. 15 of TIGHAR Tracks, p. 36, I note the reference to the recovery, in 1996, in the location of the carpenter's shop, "two lengths of what appears to be pre-war American radio cable with connectors of a type used in aviation applications.". Could we have some details and specifics please, i.e. type of conductor wire, insulation, and possibly a photo of the connectors. Would these be the type of cables used to connect microphones, keys, etc to radio equipment and do we have any informantion as to the type of this equipment, if any, on the Electra? ***************************************************************** From Ric Mike Everette, our esteemed Radio Historian, has done a ton of work on the cables. I'll leave it up to him to provide a description and we can certainly throw a photo up on the website, but the bottom line is that they're a "could be" but there's no way to be sure. The construction of the cables is the right vintage, as are the connectors, and both were used on aircraft radios- especially Bendix (we know that AE's DF loop and coupler at least were Bendix). However, we have not been able to eliminate the Loran station as a possible source and, in fact, we're never going to prove anything that way. The cables are just not distinctive enough. For what it's worth, it's interesting to note that we dug up the cables at what's left of the carpenter's shop - and who was the island carpenter in 1940? Emily's father. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 08:54:48 EDT From: John Buontempo Subject: Re: Fire Extinguisher Here's an off-the-wall question! What does the "wobble pump" actually do and what does it look like? Could the "fire extinguisher" actually be the "wobble pump" from NR16020? Please elaborate. John B. (hopefully a future TIGHAR member) ****************************************************************** From Ric A wobble pump is a hand pump for transferring, or in AE's case, stripping fuel from a tank. It's a little handle in the cockpit that you work (wobble) back and forth. I'm afraid that it looks nothing like fire extinguisher. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 09:05:51 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Artifacts >> The construction of the cables is the right vintage, as are the connectors, and both were used on aircraft radios- especially Bendix (we know that AE's DF loop and coupler at least were Bendix).<< --No doubt you have already searched the connector shells for any number markers stamped onto or into them. I would think that if one could make a sketch of the pinout (pin pattern and size) you would be well on the road to determining the category of original use. Manuals for the WE aircraft radios exist somewhere, (not in my collection), but Bendix manuals are plentiful and one could rule Bendix in or out, i believe, by the pin config. As to the possibility of the connectors being from the USN LORAN station, the types of equipment used for their communications link (non-LORAN) equipment, that equipment is still around and there are people (radio nuts) who still like to operate such gear. IMO they could be relied on to rule in/out any connection to US military equipment. What would be needed is photos or sketches of the connector shell (hull), size, and pin configuration and especially if the pins or sockets have numbering scheme numbers close to the pins. I think the LORAN connection is the easiest to make a judgement on, honestly. Re: >>we have not been able to eliminate the Loran station as a possible source and, in fact, we're never going to prove anything that way.<< >>The cables are just not distinctive enough<< --cables, no, but connectors yes. Hue Miller ***************************************************************** From Ric There are no numbers on the connectors. They are Howard P. Jones Type 101 single pin connectors and they were used in many different applications by several differnet manufacturers. To eliminate the LORAN station as a possible source, what's needed is for someone who is knowledgable to take the time to visit the Coast Guard Radio Museum at Cape May, NJ and research what kind of connectors were used on the equipment in use on Gardner. If no such connectors were used by the Coast Guard it still does not prove that the cables came from NR16020. I think we need to focus our energies on avenues of research that have the potential for producing conclusive proof. I don't see how the cables have that potential. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 09:07:29 EDT From: John Subject: Re: Review of "The Shadow of Wings" Excellent review Tom.. Thanks, John ( who isn't a sucker for romance novels BUT is still curious) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 09:09:44 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Lae takeoff film My thanks to Frank, Jon and Mark for your help with my image printing problem. I cut my teeth, at a very late date, on DOS and know just enough about WINDOWS to prowl the Internet and run a few other things that won't run any other way. With your help, maybe I'll get it done! ***************************************************************** From Ric Or you could just buy a Mac. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:11:49 EDT From: Cam Warren Subject: Re: Artifacts att: Hue Miller - You said "Manuals for the WE aircraft radios exist . . . ." Where?? All I've seen are some reprints of a page or two. But, most important "Bendix manuals are plentiful . . . ." I'd be thrilled and delighted to learn of a source, especially for the RDF-1 and RDF-2. The National Archives people indicate (verbally) that such material is "still classified" - they think. The successor to Bendix, Allied Signal, says they have NO historic Bendix material. Any help you can provide would be appreciated. Cam Warren ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:14:38 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: adventure > I'm not about to sail to Niku in a 38 ft anything. Well THAT should stop those people in their tracks who accuse TIGHAR of being just "adventurers".. lol RossD **************************************************************** From Ric Old TIGHAR Sayings Nos. 539 and 540: "Adventure is what happens things go wrong." "People who go looking for adventure rarely find anything else." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:19:54 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: island communications [ Forwarded for your general interest. Feel free to use all, any, or none of it as you choose. Mr. MacKinnon has given permission for me to forward this as i see appropriate. --Hue Miller ] From: Colin MacKinnon To: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Islands radio question Date: Saturday, May 06, 2000 1:25 AM Sorry for the delay in responding - I've been in hospital with a broken leg after falling off a ladder and had to have a complete hip replacement. You pose some interesting questions. 1 If the island was under British or Australian control it would have had English or more likely, Australian wireless equipment. Amalgamated Wireless Australasia (AWA) was formed in 1914 as an amalgamation of Marconi and Telefunken interests in Australia. After WW1 it became 51% owned by the Australian govt. and was given monopoly responsibility for all wireless communications around the Australian/British Pacific colonies. I'm not sure how much area this covered because India also had some responsibility further north. British Marconi would have been the supplier of equipment outside the AWA area of responsibility. 2 If AWA was responsible the radio equipment would most likely have been the precursor of the AWA 2B and 3B etc sets which were used a coastwatch sets. It is important to remember that individual radio types did not suddenly appear, they were usually an evolution from existing sets over a period of time. Around the 1935 - onwards era the receivers were standard 5 valve domestic sets. Later, circa 1937, dual wave sets were introduced to take advantage of short wave propagation. Transmitters were British style, simple (even pathetically obsolete!) and developed for inter-island communications, govt. departments, eg. police, councils, outback offices etc. They used 2A3 valves etc until around 1940 when AWA introduced the 807 as a final output, with maybe 50 watts out. 3 The power supply was most likely batteries, with a petrol charger. Even in 1937, 240 volt power was tenuous at best and most outback and colonial electricity was generated in-house with 32 volt petrol generators. Some Australian farms still used 32 volts till well into the 1950's. It was very common practice for the wireless equipment to be run from 6 volt batteries with a vibrator power converter. Because they used battery valves, the consumption was not all that bad. I have also seen a pedal generator being demonstrated by an island native circa 1937, but suspect this was for portable use. 4 Note that I said 6 volt batteries. They did not use 12 volt supplies till much later when 6 volt filament valves came in. They would have had a number of 2 volt or 6 volt cells in series/parallel with a petrol charger or float charger to maintain charge. Because of the importance of communications, they would probably have some sort of back up in case of primary failure, ie an extra set of batteries. The battery cells would have been industrial grade and expected to have several years life (not like today's vehicle batteries, guaranteed to fail one day after the 12 month's warranty period!) Such batteries were very expensive so would have been carefully maintained by the operator. They would not have been discarded until absolutely stuffed! AWA was known to be "cheap" so they would have wanted to get the maximum value out of them. It is most unlikely that a passing ship would swap batteries or provide charging facilities - too prone to catastrophe. The ship would have brought in adequate petrol and oil. 5 A warning light could be powered from the battery supply and would be more convenient and efficient than a flame. It would be interesting to know what the voltage was for the light bulb that was found. If it had a thick filament it was possibly 32 volt. 6 I've just remembered something. AWA did not sell receivers/transmitters to the islands, plantations etc. They rented them at an exorbitant fee. However they had a govt. backed monopoly and control of the wireless patents so could dictate what they liked. They probably provided a rented radio setup and employed an AWA operator for the installation on Gardner Island. When WW2 commenced many plantation owners had to flee leaving the radios behind or smashing them so the Japs couldn't use them. AWA then issued bills for the lost rental and loss of the equipment and threatened legal action against the poor planters! Nice company. In conclusion I don't have confirmed data on Gardner Island and all the above is based on general knowledge of the era and practices. I hope it is helpful. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:24:35 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: DOS v Windows v Mac >Or you could just buy a Mac. Lawd no! It's bad enough I have to have WINDOWS on an otherwise respectable computer! But the "screen print" thing is going to work. Jus' gotta tinker with it a bit. LTM Whose machine powers-up to the DOS Prompt... C:\> ***************************************************************** From Ric I suppose if you're into arcaneness for its own sake it's hard to beat DOS. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:21:42 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: island communications Mr. MacKinnon's data certainly help put things in context. I don't recall seeing anything that looked like generator parts around the wireless station, but the place had been pretty well cleaned out, and we've certainly found plenty of petrol drums all over the place. But there are several sources for these, too. The main thing I see in Mr. MacKinnon's report is confirmation that wireless communications were quite fragile. LTM (who's fragile but communicative) Tom King *************************************************************************** From Ric Petrol drums? What petrol drums? There are steel drums (or what's left of them) all over the place and we found some drums down near the old Loran station that said "JP4" on the side but those are almost certainly from the 1975 USAF helicopter visit. I know of no drums that are known to have once contained gasoline. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:42:38 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: DOS v Windows v Mac Windows9x (the offspring of DOS) is more configurable than a MAC and is cost effective if the user needs really wide latitude in use and is willing to spend time on tech issues (for routine use this need isn't as great as in the past). I have lots of complaints about Windows but it works well for my specialized apps, partly because of the wide range of hardware available for Wintel platforms, and because I can configure so radically. Also, one of the secrets of Win9x is the immense power and speed of its DOS command line functionality, which is hidden from most casual users. However, MACs are excellent, well-built and elegant machines and user support is definitely less of an issue with them. william 2243 *************************************************************************** From Ric Although wildly off-topic, I started this thread so I can't complain. The fundamental advantage of a Mac is the operating system. Windows is a program that runs DOS and translates it into something that looks sort of like the user-friendly Mac system. With a Mac you're working directly on the operating system. With Windows you're always speaking through an interpreter. I've never heard of a Mac user converting to PC and liking it, but stories of frustrated PCers finding peace, fulfillment and enlightment in the Macintosh world are legion. *************************************************************************** From Vern >From Ric > >I suppose if you're into arcaneness for its own sake it's hard to beat DOS. ****************************************************************** From Vern DOs would seem arcane to one who had not learned it. Just as some hot-shot programers say "machine language" is "black magic." But it's what I learned first. Before there was DOS to make things easier! It's writing in the only language the microprocessor actually understands. Pretty arcane, that! I like DOS because it's so much easier and faster than WINDOWS, for all computer operations and certainly for Internet access, providing I'm not interested in fancy, slow-loading, pictures etc. Often I'm only interested in text. DOS and a good "comm" program are great for the search engines -- fast. Fast to check what is on a site and possibly grab the URL if it's interesting. I don't have to wait while all the advertising and other graphic stuff loads. And the access is free! True, I have to go to WINDOWS to see graphics and for e-mail. I wish there was a free-standing (no windows) e-mail handler, but that's not going to happen. Someone will find a way to block that kind of Internet access! But Maybe if I'm the only one doing it.... LTM: Cracking whip impatiently, "Back to sifting the sands of Niku!" ************************************************************************** From Ric Esperanto seems arcane to those who have not learned it. If you ever get a chance, take a crack at a 500 mghz Mac G4, but wear a seatbelt. ************************************************************************* From Dave Porter "...DOS is hard to beat if you're into arcaneness for it's own sake..." Yup, in fact, to do better would take something along the lines of an internet discussion of what type of batteries powered pre-WWII wireless sets in obscure British colonies in the Pacific. LTM (love the mundane) Dave Porter, 2288 ************************************************************************** From Ric Touche. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:44:54 EDT From: George Mershon Subject: Re: adventure There is an old saying " If at first you don't succeed, don't go sailing!" George Mershon ************************************************************************* From Ric Words of great wisdom. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:58:41 EDT From: Margot Still Subject: timelines Has anyone ever taken the evidence collected up to this date and placed it on a timeline? Sometimes you see interesting things when you do that, as well as think of questions that never occurred to you before now. It is a slow and tedious process, but in some cases can be very productive. Also, in looking again at the Lambrecht Photo, has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe the N arrow might be indicating something other than direction? I don't know what it might be, but the thought crossed my mind. LTM, (fresh from the Derby with other GRITS, who know it is the place to see and be seen) MSTILL #2332 ************************************************************************** From Ric Timelines R Us. I've done dozens, and you're right, they can be very revealing. I can't see that we've ever tried to put everything we've learned on one timeline but the one linked to the Bones Chronology on the website is pretty good. You can go directly to it at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Documents/Bonestimeline.html Is the erroneous north arrow on the Lambrecht Photo something other than an erroneous north arrow? Worth thinking about. Both the arrow and the "N" are hand drawn. If it's not some bozo making an assumption about the orientation of the photo, what else could it mean? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:03:35 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Manuals Cam Warren asked: >You said "Manuals for the WE aircraft radios exist . . . ." Where?? >All I've seen are some reprints of a page or two. --Time for me to put up or shut up. I've put out inquiries re the early, 2-number WECo aircraft radio. Any specific models? >But, most important "Bendix manuals are plentiful . . . ." --Well, I sort of misspoke here. The WW2 era Bendix manuals are plentiful. RDF-1 i have put out inquiries on. The ONLY RDF-1 nomenclature i have ever encountered is seen in the Squadron Signal book, "TBD Devastator In Action". A factory photo of the radio-gunner position, before equipment was installed, has positions labled, and there is one position marked "RDF-1". No one i know personally, has ever seen a "RDF-1", and in fact all the TBD's we are aware of actually used a Navy type DU df-adaptor. This was a little tuner box about 6x6 inches by about 5 inches tall, topped by a fat, circular loop antenna about 12" tall. This thing sat right inside the plane and you can see it just ahead of the radio gunner's head, totally inside the canopy, in photos of such planes as SB2C. The tuner part tuned the loop from 200 kcs thru 1600 kcs and then fed the output right to the antenna connection on the ship's communication receiver. On the COM receiver, you tuned in the station you needed to df on (this using the ship's wire antenna), then switched from COM to DF, tuned the adaptor for best signal with the same station, then rotated the loop for a null on that station. The null of course points to the station, or 180 degrees away from it. I can get a copy of the DU manual, which will also apply to the DW, if requested, and you think it would somehow help this investigation. I don't think this thing would work inside a metal enclosed cockpit with only a few windows i.e. the 10E location. There was another version of the same adaptor, type DW, used on larger patrol craft, that had a longer neck or stem between the tuning unit and the loop, a stem of about 3 ft., so the adaptor could sit on the radio shelf, and the neck extended up thru the hull with the actual loop outside. However, photos of AE's plane don't seem to show any external loop, right? I am wondering if the RDF-1 (Navy) is the same as the RDF-1 (re Bendix and 10E) and if this nomenclature was a prototype nomenclature for what became the Navy type DU. Could this have been the origin of the supposed "secret" or "classified" status of the RDF-1, its military origin? Otherwise, there's absolutely nothing in its technology so radical or original as to justify any "classified" status. Technical details of the military radio equipment of the time, were routinely rated "restricted" even when commercial models of the same class of equipment were freely available on the market. > be thrilled and delighted to learn of a source, especially for the > RDF-1 and RDF-2. The National Archives people indicate > (verbally) that such material is "still classified" - they think. I think we can safely assume the mystery Bendix RDF-1 df adaptor had to be pretty similar in design to the Navy DU or DW. If you don't see a visible loop antenna how this equipment could have been working on AE's 10E is a mystery to me.The belly wire antenna that was possibly scraped off could only df - position with the A-N type radio-range airfield beacon stations, but were there any in the Pacific at this early date, I doubt it, and anyway that system does not require any adaptor or loop. As for any CLASSIFIED status still applying to such historic, lowtech stuff, that indicates incompetence. >The successor to Bendix, Allied Signal, says they have NO >historic Bendix material. --Yes, i found that out myself years back. That's the rule rather than the exception. >Any help you can provide would be appreciated. --I am looking. Hue Miller ************************************************************************* From Ric >>However, photos of AE's plane don't seem to show any external loop, right? Wrong. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:05:32 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: island communications The references to 32V power tie in with my earlier speculation on the subject of the light / power situation on Gardner (and the references to our own 32V power and lighting). However I still believe they would have used Kerosene and Candles extensively as well. AWA is no longer I believe. I was trying to track down more info regarding the "Ultimate" radio as that was an AWA distribution, however I got side tracked by work. RossD ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:14:28 EDT From: Mike Rejsa Subject: Re: DOS v Windows v MAC >From Ric >I suppose if you're into arcaneness for its own sake it's hard to beat DOS. We have Unix for that, Ric. :) Actually one of the things that has impressed me with the basic DOS 6.2/WIN 3.11 package is it's ability to confound any of the recent virus's that need Visual Basic, Outlook, etc. to survive. They just go "Huh?" on this machine. ILOVEIT. mike rejsa ************************************************************************** From Ric Macs are not only immune to most viruses but actually track the trail back to the original perpetrator and detonate their monitor the next time they power up. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:17:57 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Statistics There is a point in "connecting" the cables, if not to AE's aircraft, to a circa 1937 use. I don't know if the subject of statistics has ever been discussed on the forum, but I am sure that a person/university schooled in the subject to draw some interesting conclusions based upon a statistical anaylsis of the artifacts found or discussed to date. While any one of the artifacts is not a "smoking gun", all of them, taken together with some form of statistical anaylsis, may "prove" the theory to a statistical probability. Tying the cables to the Electra, even if not exclusively, increases the statistical probability that the Electra was on or near the Island. *************************************************************************** From Ric We've talked about that but so far no one has come up with a candidate with the right expertise who would be willing to take on the job. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:24:12 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: DOS v Windows v Mac Ric wrote, >Windows is a >program that runs DOS and translates it into something that looks sort of >like the user-friendly Mac system. Well, actually with Win95 and beyond, the Win OS was given a new kernel with some backward compatibility with DOS, and a DOS command line function. The "translation" to the GUI (the user-friendly interface that we see onscreen on both MACs and Wintel systems) also occurs on MACs. The old DOS system wasn't arcane to those of us who learned it and used it. MACs are easier to maintain and use because they provide fewer configuration options (that is, it's harder for the user to erroneously change a setting and crash or disable the machine). Wintel machines are highly configurable and cost effective in terms of hardware, at the expense of much more difficulty with user support issues. Heavily used Win9x machines are also notorious for crashing and requiring a reboot more than once a day. Both systems are very powerful, both have shortcomings. While I prefer the Wintel platform for my own needs, I'm happy to see that Apple is making progress in the market again: Competition = progress. Windows NT, by the way, is deeply stable. I'll bet AE would have preferred a MAC, but I suspect FN would have been a Wintel man. ( How's that for an inflammatory, utterly useless, off-topic remark?) william 2243 *************************************************************************** From Ric Pretty good. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:41:27 EDT From: Frank Westlake Subject: Re: DOS v Windows v Mac > From Vern > > I wish there was a free-standing (no windows) e-mail handler, > but that's not going to happen. So that this is not off topic I'll relate it by suggesting that participation in this forum requires an e-mail interface and that the user should be comfortable with that interface. :) For a DOS based e-mail application look in one of the Simtelnet archives under msdos/. I think the subdirectory 'mailnews' may have what you're looking for. Here's the URL for the archive I checked: . Frank Westlake ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:01:24 EDT From: Margot Still Subject: Lambrecht Photo The "N" and arrow bother me very much. I find it hard to believe such an obvious error could be made and cannot help but wonder if we're missing something right on the end of our nose. It keeps coming up in my dreams, in odd situations, which usually means I'm missing something obvious. MStill ************************************************************************** From Ric It's worth remembering that we don't really know who took the Lambrecht Photo except that it was one of the six people who were in the air over Gardner that day. It's a poor quality photo and maybe not an "official" U.S. Navy photo at all. More likely, somebody happened to have a personal camera along and snapped a photo and the Navy decided it would like to have a copy. It's not hard for me to believe that somebody just wanted to be helpful by putting a north arrow on the print but screwed up the orientation. By way of comparison, a very similar photo from almost the same perspective was taken by the Brits in December 1938. That photo has several hand-drawn arrows on it, but they point downward toward specific geographical features such as the main lagoon passage and the shipwreck. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:23:23 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Post-Loss messages Has the report by LCDR Brandenburg analyizing post loss messages been published or posted for review? ************************************************************************** From Ric LCDR Brandenburg's report will be part of the 8th edition of the project book which Lt. Gillespie has not yet finished writing, assembling, editing and laying out. We're doing asbestos we can. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:39:11 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Survivors camp Has the survivors camp of the crew of the S.S. Norwich City ever been located? If so, where is it in relation the the vessel itself? Has there been a detailed site examination if located? Is one planned for IIIIP? I note the reference in Vol. 15, p.55 to the photo of the New Zealand survey team depicting the site in "disarray" as opposed the Capt. Hamer's reference that "all provisions, etc. were placed in the shelter", seeming to indicate some care to protect them for future use. If located near the grounded vessel it would also be near, a presumbably visable, to the Electra (TIGHAR hypothesis 2), if it were visable to the survey crew approximately one year later. If used by AE and Noonan (placed in disarray), then abandoned upon Noonan's death and AE's departure to other points on the Island (TIGHAR hypothesis 5) there may well be items from the Electra that were originally salvaged, then abandoned up AE's departure, either because she couldn't use or couldn't transport everything. Has there been any analysis/enhancement of the 1938 survey crew's photo to "look" for such objects? Material salvaged by Noonan/Earhart would be a likely source of salvage for the new settlers and easily found in 1938 and no longer present. Its also possible that "goodies" remain that the settlors felt were of little value and left. *************************************************************************** From Ric All excellent points. No, we not have located the Norwich City survivor's camp. There were, in fact, three temporary campsites along that shoreline just off the bow of the ship. 1. the December 1929 shipwreck survivor's campsite 2. the October 1937 campsite of the Maude/Bevington expedition 3. the December 1938 - February 1939 New Zealand survey campsite Unfortunately, that shoreline gets pounded by major weather events that may or may not have reached far enough inland to wipe out signs of a camp. We know where the New Zealanders camped but that site is close enough to the shore so that it probably got overwashed repeatedly. Farther inland there was a lot of clearing and planting activity in the latter part of the colonial era (1949-1963), so that's a problem. As you suggest, a close look at the 1938 aerial photo is warranted to see if we can spot anything that might be a campsite, but since we know that it was back under the trees, it's a long shot. Some really focussed on-the-ground work during Niku IIII seems worthwhile for the reasons you mention. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:41:29 EDT From: Christian D. Subject: Re: island communicatins > From Tom King > > Mr. MacKinnon's data certainly help put things in context. I don't recall > seeing anything that looked like generator parts around the wireless station, How about a spot heavily stained with engine oil? May be a short distance from the wireless station? May be with a small cement foundation? And traces that there was a small shed over it at some point? May be next to the battery dump? By the way: 32Volts systems usually are made up of four 8Volts batteries... Is there lots of 4-celled batteries lying around? Regards. Christian D. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:45:03 EDT From: Christian D. Subject: Re: island communicatins >From Ric > > Petrol drums? What petrol drums? There are steel drums (or what's left of > them) all over the place and we found some drums down near the old Loran > station that said "JP4" on the side but those are almost certainly from the > 1975 USAF helicopter visit. I know of no drums that are known to have once > contained gasoline. Well! Now that I think of it: paraffin used for lights is usually a more refined grade than kerosene used for fuel. Anybody knows if in the 30's and 40's lamp oil was ever packaged in big drums, as opposed as in one or 5 gallons cans? Ross? If that was the case, then the drums are more likely to have contained petrol! Although the village wasn't shut down until the 60's, so *at some time*, for sure, there was a supply of petrol, for an outboard and generators (at least for the Govt station)... Niku was just beginning a quarter century evolution when AE vanished. I guess now we need to date them drums! :-) "On topic", but how worthwhile? Christian D. ************************************************************************* From Ric Exactly. There are hundreds of fascinating questions about how the colony functioned but we have to stay focused on the question that brings us there in the first place. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:39:01 EDT From: Ric Subject: Ae article Patrick Gaston passes along this address for an article about the "race" to recover Earhart's plane. http://www.insightmag.com/archive/200002054.shtml ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:40:35 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Lambrecht Photo Ric wrote, >>it was one of the six people who were in the air over Gardner >>that day I've missed something--? william 2243 ************************************************************************* From Ric Three airplanes, each with a pilot and observer. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:43:17 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Lambrecht Photo A possible clue to the Lambrecht photo arrow and the reason it was taken was that the map of the island showed a much different configuration than what was actually there. My suspicion, and it is only that, was that it was taken as evidence for the Navy Hydrographic Office so that their maps could be updated or at least marked as probable error in size/shape. As for the N arrow, it must have been marked after the picture was taken (time for development - duh!) and perhaps the annotator had forgotten actual course of the plane at the time of the picture, and just guesstimated. In fact, the N arrow could have been added months if not years later. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:49:52 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: island communications > Anybody knows if in the 30's and > 40's lamp oil was ever packaged in big drums, as opposed as in one or 5 > gallons cans? Ross? It is unlikely that "lamp oil" was used. Lighting back then (in colonial times) was almost entirely kerosene or candles if electricity was not being used. Kerosene came in distinctive drums of about 4 imperial gallons (5 US gal I think) and these drums were often converted to other uses once empty. They were used as water buckets, camp ovens, meat safes, and even as cladding for dwellings (after being flattened out). With a few holes puunched in the bottom they were suspended from a tree and held just sufficient water for a decent shower. Because a lot of these drums went on to another life (original recycling?) there are not many of them around today. Here are some references to the tins and their uses from contemporary early literature. As great good luck would have it, they had some dirty clothes on to boil in a kerosene tin - dish-cloths or something. I ran to the creek with the big kerosene-tin bucket and got it full of cold water and stood it handy. his eye was caught by the glare of an empty kerosene tin lying in the bushes, Eggs were not a constant price and during the low price season they were tapped to test for cracks, and the sound ones were smeared with Ovaline or preserved in kerosene tins with Nortons Egg Preserver. but she filled the four gallon kerosene tin which was used to carry the lunches with sandwiches and scones, and they were sent out to the men. and boil it in a four-gallon kerosene tin, inside the room n old kerosene tin or 4 gallon drum pierced to allow plenty of air holes, makes a good brazier for a charcoal fire. greasy-feeling water from a cut-down kerosene tin which I sneaked from the cook and hid under my bunk Not exactly "on topic" but may suggest a reason for any lack of physical evidence of kerosene tins lying around on Niku... Oh, they were not usually painted, and did rust.. RossD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:53:10 EDT From: Denise Subject: A Missing Tooth? In the telegram from Gallagher describing the bones found on Nukumaroro, he says that the skull had FIVE teeth. However, in the report from Hoodless in Suva, he says the skull had FOUR teeth. What happened to the missing tooth? Sincerely, Denise (Sorry if this subject has already been dealt with in detail, but I'm new to this forum.) ************************************************************************** From Ric We don't know, but it's not hard to imagine a tooth shaking loose and getting lost sometime between when the mandible was origianlly found and the time seven months and 1,000 miles later when Hoodless examined the bones. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:58:20 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: island communicatins << I know of no drums that are known to have once contained gasoline. >> All right, we have no drums with "petrol" marked on them, but we have a whole lot of drums, and although we know the Coasties brought drums of fuel ashore, I don't see any reason to assume that they were the only ones. However, I'll admit you've got me, Ric; we don't KNOW that any of the drums we've seen had gasoline in them. TK ************************************************************************* From Ric The New Zealand survey party brought lots of drums containing water and even empty drums for marking out the lagoon (we have photos). As you note, the Coasties had drums and drums of diesel fuel. We see the rusted remains of steel drums scattered about and we have presumed they were used as makeshift cisterns. If they were originally used for fuel transport (gasoline or diesel) I'd sure want to scrub them out well before I used them for drinking water. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:59:38 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: island communications Ross says: However I still believe they would have used Kerosene and Candles extensively as well. I think that's very likely. As recently as the 1970s when my wife was living in a village in Chuuk, kerosene "hurricane lamps" were the major source of light. I'm reading June Knox-Mawer's "Tales from Paradise," which is all about the WPHC and the islands under its jurisdiction in the 1930s through 50s, and there are repeated references to hurricane lamps. I have the nagging feeling, too, that we've seen the remains of such lamps in the village, but never taken note of them because they obviously weren't from an Electra. TKing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:01:07 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: island communications I don't know about oil stains, Christian. It just wasn't the kind of thing we were looking for, or taking the time to record. Maybe somebody else on one of the expeditions noticed something like that in passing, but I didn't. Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:23:37 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Sad story of confusion I have been rereading the radio logs at "logjam.html" site and the more i read, the more moved i am by how sad a story of confusion this is. AE's Bendix, RDF adaptor apparently included an innovation included in the U.S. Navy's 'next generation' of df-adaptors ( series 'DU' ) : HF (shortwave) coverage. Unfortunately, she was under the impression this equipment was standard, including USCG ships. She had tried it out unsuccessfully at Lae. William Donzelli tells me he read some Navy text stating that the HF-df feature of this later appearing model adaptor (DU), was found simply not to work, and was dropped in later production of this model. So all those RDF efforts were simply a waste of precious attention and time. I also wonder if this innovative feature was somehow linked with the talk about the 10E's RDF equipment being secret or classified. AE could have homed successfully on Itasca, using the same RDF, but the Itasca would have had to transmit on the conventional DF bands- 200 kcs to 1600 or so. The ship certainly had equipment to do this, as all seagoing ships had equipment covering at least 400 - 500 kcs with a few hundred watts power. If AE were to send df signals to the Itasca, on the other hand, she would have needed that trailing antenna to be able to use the lower frequency. I wonder: if AE had all along been unaware that Itasca could not send voice on 7500, did she simply not hear the toneless rushing pulses of cw til she was quite close and the signals were stronger, quite strong? What I am wondering is, expecting voice on 7500, did she fail to have the receiver switched to CW on the CW/VOICE switch? Out a few hundred miles, with cabin noise, and electrical noise from the 10E engine, and atmospheric noise, it could be difficult to hear the the cw signals unless the receiver, via this switch, was set to reproduce them as sounds with an audio pitch. ( The receiver is usually tuned so the "CW note" is somewhere in the range 500 - 1000 cycles. ) BTW, the conventional wisdom was that CW was "10 times as effective" as voice, so IF the propagation & skip path allowed, you would certainly think the Itasca's 7500 kcs cw signals would have gone the distance, at least of a few hundred miles. allowed Also, i do not agree that AE at the last switching to 6210 was a fatal mistake. 20:00 hours is still early enough that this "day" frequency is still viable, and since you do not know the location of the aircraft, you do not know if the "skip zone" of either frequency favors or disfavors communication. I am thinking that all along, there should have been more knob-twisting to arrive at the best frequency. I am also a little puzzled as to why a wide divergence in frequencies used by the 2 parties, over most of the flight: I would think the best one would be the best one both ways. Also, it kinda surprises me the USCG cutter didn't have equipment to specifically talk to aircraft - if the Itasca's voice equipment topped out in the 6000 kcs band, that sounds like it was the usual medium wave ship voice radio, usable about 1600 to 6000 and some kcs. But this was 1937, still pretty early in the communications game. ( re radio log and commentary: http://www.tighar.org/TTracks/12_2/logjam.html. and http://www.insightmag.com/archive/200002054.shtml an Insight magazine article which summarizes the theories, including the far-out "Japanese capture" one, and the focuses of the different search organizations. ) DE KA7LXY K (Hue Miller, who may be all wet) *************************************************************************** From Ric If, indeed, the Navy was modifying the "new" Bendix RDF adaptor for HF use (but it didn't really work), this could clear up the confusion about whole 7500 kcs mess. Suppose it was one of those units that Earhart received. That could be the source of Joe Gurr's comment that a "radio" arrived for installation in the Earhart plane in a box marked "U.S. Navy." That could also be why Earhart, in good faith, believed that she would be able to home on a 7500 kcs signal. Earhart's switch to 6210 was not made in the early evening as you seem to suggest. It was just after 20:13 GCT which was 08:43 local time. The Insight magazine article, by the way, is full of the usual inaccuracies and distortions of the TIGHAR story. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:28:40 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: island communications << If they were originally used for fuel transport (gasoline or diesel) I'd sure want to scrub them out well before I used them for drinking water. >> I would too, but the fact is that such drums are routinely used all over the islands for rainwater catchers under the eaves of houses -- including on islands where there's enough fresh water to make it unlikely that anyone's brought it ashore in drums, and where there are or were lots of military facilities producing cast-off fuel drums. If we really wanted to pursue this (I agree, we don't), there are probably public health reports that deal with the problem of misusing fuel drums in the Pacific. TK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:04:42 EDT From: K. Matthew Victor Subject: Re: DOS v Windows v Mac NUTS!!! All of you! Try Linux and you'll see what we penguins' mean at "Winblows". As to the Intel versus Motorola proc. debate, Jet Prop. Lab. uses and has done so for quite awhile, the G4 on Wind River Canyons' real time O. S. for space flight. Recently the same architecture is been run on R.T.Linux for flight systems. So, have cake and eat too. K. Matthew Victor ************************************************************************* From Ric Nice to see that passion is still alive on the Forum. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:07:35 EDT From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Re: Missing Tooth > From Ric > >We don't know, but it's not hard to imagine a tooth shaking loose and getting >lost sometime between when the mandible was origianlly found and the time >seven months and 1,000 miles later when Hoodless examined the bones. Maybe we can run a joint venture with Nauticos and get them to search the Pacific between Niku and Tarawa for the missing tooth with their sophisticated sonar equip. They should be able to pin it down in no time. LTM (who likes looking for needles in haystacks) A McKenna ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:13:58 EDT From: Dan Postellon Subject: Niku from space There is a not too detailed satellite photo of Nikumaroro at: Dan Postellon TIGHAR 2263 *********************************************************************** From Ric Yup, there it is. Right down there. Pretty interesting really. Very typical cloud pattern. I'll betcha that if you had a similar view of Howland (smaller, no lagoon, and less distinctive in shape) it would be hard to tell it from the clouds. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 06:44:20 EDT From: Frank Westlake Subject: Re: Niku from space > From Ric > I'll betcha that if you had a similar view of Howland > (smaller, no lagoon, and less distinctive in shape) it > would be hard to tell it from the clouds. In response to Ric's comment, here is the page that covers the quadrant that Howland Is. is in. The first two links are for Howland/Baker, but good luck spotting them. This page covers the Phoenix Is. quadrant. I haven't looked at it yet. A clickable map of the world that let's you zoom in on a section. Neat stuff! Thanks, Dan. Frank Westlake ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 06:45:54 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Niku from space Here's Howland Is. - except no clouds. Unknown on scale of the photo... http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/scripts/sseop/photo.pl?mission=STS61A&roll=51&frame= 88&UID=SSEOP&PWD=sseop ltm jon 2266 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 06:49:34 EDT From: Kerry Tiller Subject: Off topic closure We need some off topic closures here. This computer thread is the only one still active (and since my Power Mac is 2 generations behind Ric's G4 I'll keep my 2 yen to myself). So, do we have a consensus on the most under rated aviator (Doolittle?) and what nick name does Ross like the best? More on topic (barely), re; pre war Imperial Japanese Navy archives; the JMSDF boys here in Yokosuka think anything like that that has survived would be at Etajima (the Japanese naval academy near Kure). I know a former instructor there who now works in the building in front of mine. I intend to pick his brain next week. That will probably include a few beers at the Irish pub across the street from the base. LTM (who has never been in an Irish pub) Kerry 2350 ************************************************************************** From Ric Executive decisions: Doolittle is most underrated aviator Ross is WOMBAT The word on computers is "To each his (or her) own." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 06:51:48 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: island communications Ric wrote, >>I'd sure want to scrub them out well I don't care what others might have done in the past, drinking water out of a container that contained a flammable hydrocarbon is a good way to shorten one's life. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 06:52:45 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: DOS v Windows v Mac K. Matthew Victor wrote, >>> NUTS!!! All of you! Actually, Matthew is correct. In my dreams, the world adopted Unix with a graphical interface 12 years ago. The only reason I don't use Linux now is applications that are only available on Wintel. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:18:41 EDT From: Frank Westlake Subject: Re: Niku from space Regarding my last: Howland Island is clearly visible in the picture from mission STS61A which is linked at the bottom of the page I identified as the Howland/Baker quadrant. Frank Westlake ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:29:00 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Sad Story.....and USCG bungle "We have that report of all those wireless messages and everything else, what that woman -- happened to her the last few minutes. I hope I've just got to never make it public," says Morgenthau. As Treasury secretary he was in charge of the Coast Guard. After reading the radio log, it's clear the above quote has nothing to do with any spy mission, Japanese capture, etc., but is a comment on the ineptitude of the Coast Guard radio personnel on the Itasca. What an awful showing. And that comment's even without, most likely, him knowing the details of the direction-finder tangle: You receive a current-model piece of radio equipment (the RDF loop adaptor ) in a box marked U.S. Navy - how is an untrained appliance operator to know that it's experimental, and that it might just as well NOT work? Hue Miller *************************************************************************** From Ric While I agree that there was clearly no spy mission, I think that Morgenthau's concern was for Earhart's reputation - not the Coast Guard's. Thompson's report on "all those wireless messages" (which was Morgenthau's principal source of information) was a whitewash that exonerated the Itasca of any negligence while roundly condemning Earhart. We don't know what Earhart did or did not know about whatever she received from the Navy (if anything). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:40:55 EDT From: John B. Subject: Re: island communications If the Coasties had vehicles on Niku during their stay in the middle 1940s, what did they use for fuel for the jeeps and trucks? I don't think that everything ran off diesel fuel, at least I don't think the jeeps and trucks had diesel engines. John B. ************************************************************************** From Ric The Coasties had at least one "weapons carrier" (sort of like a pick-up truck) which, I would guess, was probably gasoline powered. They also had a D6 Caterpiller bulldozer which was almost certainly diesel. Whether the Coasties had drums of gasoline is really not at issue. The question has been whether the villagers routinely used a gasoline powered generator to recharge batteries. And I can't, for the life of me, imagine why it makes any diffrence to our investigation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:45:52 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Most Rev. Egan Who has the nerve to ask the new papal appointee to Archbishop of New York, Rev. Egan, if he is related to Fred Noonan's mum? His excellency was born near Chicago, however, Egan apparently was a very common Irish name. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 ************************************************************************** From Ric According to her death certificate, Helena C. Egan Noonan was born in England (but of course, that doesn't mean that she wasn't "Irish.") ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:56:59 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Bendix adaptor This photo shows a Navy WW2 aircraft receiver setup as used in many 2 and 3 place scout and bomber planes in WW2, for example the TBM and SOC2. http://www.qsl.net/ke6myk/greenradio/MRCG2000/p18.jpg To the left side is a type DU direction finding adaptor. This is an "inside loop", to be placed inside the cockpit canopy and was manually rotated by the radio operator. An "outside loop" had a long stem to extend to the loop outside the airframe. a smaller number were built that had totally separate, powered rotation loops. The small unit connected to the loop just below, is a preamplifier to boost the weak signal strength from the small loop. Its output goes via one single wire to a connection on the front of the receiver. In operation, the operator has to tune the control on the the loop amplifier for maximum signal, then rotate the loop for a minimum - the "null". I don't know anyone who has actually seen the type RDF adaptor as used on AE's plane, unless it was so similar to type DU or such that we simply mistook it. Military electronics built in the interwar years and before the rearmament of 1940 on, was built in quite small numbers. When this gear was made obsolete by newer equipment, it could make its way to some surplus disposal channel - or be taken apart for parts or for training purposes in military schools, or simply be discreetly carried off to home by some interested party. Attrition seems to have been high enough that some equipment from the interwar years is quite rare - the RDF is a good example. In any case, the DU would be similar in its components, operation, and basic appearance to the RDF set. Hue Miller ************************************************************************* From Ric The unit in the picture is, as you say, a WWII unit. There is good photography of the Bendix unit that went into NR16020 taken at the time of installation (first week of March 1937). There is also at least one good contemporaneous (1937) magazine article that describes the new Bendix adaptor. We can get this stuff up on the website but it will have to wait for a couple of weeks due to workload. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:00:15 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Earth from space There are some interesting views of a few portions of the earth from the "Shuttle Radar Topography Mission," at: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/image_products_list.html So far I've seen nothing of the Phoenix Islands. I'm concerned that they say the radar was turned off when over the oceans to conserve power. So, will they have covered the Phoenix Islands? This appears to be a real "foliage penetrating" radar! There is no trace of the vegitation we know is there in some of these images -- right down to bare dirt. Resolution is far short of what would be useful to us, but it's getting close. The images released thus far are all from "C" band data -- no "X" band so far. That might offer an improvement by about a factor of two -- Shorter wavelength, about 0.4 that of "C" band. The perspective views are pretty but I like the "shaded relief images" for a good look at what's there. Note that you can download high resolution image files. Although scarcely tropical, Saint Pierre and Miquelon Islands are interesting in that they approach the size of the Niku. It gives some feel for what Niku might look like in a "C" band image. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:12:25 EDT From: Denise Subject: Re: Missing Tooth Look, let's get serious for a moment about this missing tooth. Maybe it did shake loose in the seven months period, somewhere between Nikumaroro and Suva, but - for heavens sake - it was inside a presumably closed wooden box. A loose tooth would have been something Hoodless would have found it IN the box, surely. So, if it wasn't there - and we can safely assume that both Gallagher and Hoodless could count - then it had to have gone missing during the times when the box was opened. We know Issacs/Verrier opened it in Tarawa. We know Varkass and company opened it in Suva. Can we rule out a tooth maybe falling out and getting lost or being taken on either of these occasions? Is there some sort of record of what happened here? And when else was the box opened? And who else opened it? Did anyone open the box aboard ship? Either officially or unofficially? You know, sneak a peek inside, and maybe pocket a piece as a souvineer? So where on the ship was the box stored? Was it sealed? And, if so, how was the sealed? Who had access to it? If the tooth was pocketed aboard ship, it may be possible to find out who did it. A ship is a closed environment. People don't just walk in and out. So, is it possible to get the names of all the people aboard? Maybe talk to a few of them? Find out if maybe one of them has a tooth souvineered from the box? Since I believe the bones won't be found, maybe this tooth is the only way you're going to be able to track down a sample for DNA testing. It needs to be considered. Denise *************************************************************************** From Ric Everything we know about the travels of the box of bones is in the correspondence that is on the website. Although we know, in a general sense, where it went and when - we have no idea and no way of knowing exactly who did what. Off the the top of my head, I'd say that the most likley place and time for the tooth to go missing was when Isaac looked at what he called the "wretched relics" in Tarawa. Honestly, I think that chasing that tooth is an exercise in futility. I think our best shot at getting a tooth is finding the hole the skull came out of and looking there for teeth that may have fallen out. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:14:31 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Juarez-the Final Chapter Regarding the search for Fred's 1937 divorce record in Cd. Juarez, I went through a number of 'helpers', some legit and some on the shady side, but was finally able to get to someone with an appropriate connection who took on this task. The first thing anyone has to understand is that civil courts in Mexico, at least in those days, were not required to maintain records for any particular length of time. On this side of the river, I can still go to the county courthouse and look at marriage and divorce books from the late 1880's on. Not so over there. We did see a number of records from that era, but Fred and Josie's divorce papers were missing. I would not read anything into that other than lax record-keeping and lack of funds and facilities. It was also indicated that those who did not return to sign the final decree were tossed. However, I find it difficult to believe that between March and May, Fred would not have taken care of that. I am in contact with relatives of his Juarez lawyer, but really don't expect anything there. A disappointment, to be sure. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 ************************************************************************** From Ric But a gallant try. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:17:26 EDT From: Roger Kelley Subject: Global investigation Real cool !! An American asking a Japanese guy questions over Irish beer about a woman of Norwegian ancestry who got lost some where in the South Pacific during a 'round da world flight. Tell me we haven't gone global !! LTM (who hails from the land of emerald green) Roger Kelley #2112 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:19:09 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Fuel drums Tom King wrote: >there are probably public health reports that deal >with the problem of misusing fuel drums in the Pacific. See my posting on the many lives of the Kerosene Tin.. The same routinely applies to fuel drums.. A little soap and salt water goes a long way.. RossD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:25:50 EDT From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Re: Review of "The Shadow of Wings" Just finished the book myself. Pretty entertaining! I got my copy through amazon.com.uk. If you have an account with amazon.com, then it's fairly simple to order through the uk site. Love to Mother, (who turns out to be the nun in brown who walks alone) Amanda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:50:29 EDT From: John Buontempo Subject: Drums (Fuel or otherwise) 3:00 AM. Mother's Day. Can't sleep. Got up. Overcame addiction to coffee. Can't overcome this addiction to search for AE/FN! I dunno! Gotta get a life somehow, somewhere! (Note from Ric; I'll answer John's questions as we go along.) ************************************ Has the Ameriki site been thoroughly investigated? Ric: No. Like any area that was once cleared, the entire Loran site is now an almost impenetrable tangle of scaevola. We've only nibbled at the edges and made a couple of forays farther in. *************************************** What was found there? Ric: A scattering of junk. Pipes, a toilet, old coke bottles, etc. ************************************* Are the Quonset huts still there? Ric: Don't know. Should be. ********************************** How about a generator site for the Loran station and power for the rest of the site? I'll be willing to bet that the generator that powered the site was not your local hardware store, Briggs&Stratton powered, portable type. Ric: I agree. It was probably a beast. We don't know if it's still there or not. ********************************* What did the Coasties do with all the equipment when the station was dismantled? Ric: Supposedly, most of it was stored in the quonset huts. There was a brief article in Pacific Islands Monthly sometime in the mid-1950s entitled "Valuable Radio Equipment Rusts On Gardner Island" lamenting how the Americans abandoned much of the Loran equipment (which was probably by then obsolete and, like so much other WWII equipment, not worth retrieving). ************************************************** What did the drums contain and what were the contents used for? Ric: I'm not sure which drums you're referring to. We see the very rusted remnants of many steel drums around the village. we presume that they were mostly used for water collection and storage, but we don't know for sure where they came from. *********************** I guess what I'm getting at is if the Coasties had vehicles on Niku, did they do any exploring or sightseeing on the island during their off-duty(?)hours -- particularly, around the Norwich City and the reef flat nearby? Could they have possibly found any debris of NR16020 or any signs of AE or FN and just didn't care or say anything? Ric: According to the guys who were there, exploring and sightseeing were extremely limited. The commanding officer was concerned about "fraternization" with the locals and restricted his men to the immediate area of the station. Social trips to the village were organized and supervized. In fact, when I talked to the unit's CO (Charles Sopko, who now lives in Georgia) he was adamant that there was no shipwreck at Gardner. None of the veterans of the unit with whom we have spoken has any recollection of ever hearing stories about bones or airplane parts, much less finding any themselves. A few of them did, however, describe seeing an odd abandoned "water collection device" ( a tank with a tarp rigged over it to collect water). It was that story that eventually led us to the "Seven" site. **************** John B. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:56:14 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Lockheed 10 cockpit In my ongoing quest for the final version of the front-office layout, I notice that in one of the cockpit photos there are two hand cranks clearly visible in the ceiling. They appear to be in just about the right place to be affiliated with the Bendix DF loop. Would that make sense? If they aren't part of the loop rotating mechanism, do you have any idea what they may have been for? Also, there are two ceiling mount units, one on either side of the cockpit ceiling, that look to be about finger size, that appear to be some type ball and socket or gymbal mounted light. They do seem to be too small to accommodate the bulb-base artifact, however. ltm jon 2266 ************************************************************************** From Ric The cranks on the overhead are the trim tabs for elevator and rudder. The instrument/map lights are, as you say, way too small to be associated with the lightbulb base. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:03:29 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Search Sites On the website you evaluated different locations as to their similarity to Gallaghers "descriptions" as to where the bones were found. I realize that trying to tie any single one down is difficult, but I did have a comment on this one: "By no stretch of the imagination is Kanawa Point on the south east corner (Point 2 above) or the south east shore of Nikumaroro (Point 6 above). Also, Kanawa Point was never planted to coconuts (see Point 8 above) and is within one mile, not two, of the nearest stand of coconut trees that were present in 1941 (see Point 10 above)." As to the planting - if they had found the body and artifacts here, would they have been likely to deem it "unacceptible" ground for digging, clearing and planting? The point is between two plantings and seem to have been "overlooked". There could be other reasons why they didn't plant here, but since it is so close to the village, it seems unlikely (to me). I can see someone being off on distances by as much as a mile if they aren't adept at figuring distance. Also, distances can be misleading in the jungle. LTM, Blue Skies, Dave Bush #2200 ************************************************************************ From Ric Yes. Those are possible reasons in favor of Kanawa Point. We just don't know if the discovery of bones might make an area taboo. We do know that there is a ghost story associated with Kanawa Point. That is where Koata's wife supposedly saw Nei Managanibuka and we suspect that it's the place known as "Niurabo" which is sacred Nei Manganibuka. That might also be the reason the area was not planted. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:13:37 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: EARHART FORCED DOWN ON EBEYE ISLAND BY JAPANESE Ric and other legend aficionados, Earhart,flying back to the Marshall Islands, was forced down by Japanese airplanes on Ebeye Island (Kwajalein atolls),captured, thence transported to Roi Namoi (?) and then on to Saipan to the Garapan prison, says Mr. Bert Webber, citing native folklore on Ebeye atoll. Webber, a respected Japanese navy historian living in Oregon, told me that in 1974-5, while researching the Japanese bombardment of the US mainland and submarine attacks on the US mainland (commissioned by the Univ of Oregon) did some collarteral investigation of the Earhart mystery while visiting Micronesia and Saipan. Webber said he visited the Kwajalein atoll following some folklore tales in an effort to document the Earhart story. After extensive efforts and interviews he said he was unable to document or cite a reliable source to confirm this "Pacific Myth" (like urban myths). According to the various tales, Earhart was escorted by Japanese fighters to the Ebeye Is where she crash landed, then eventually transported back to SAipan and imprisoned there.For instance the postmaster on Ebeye Is , a native, reportedly knew "all the details", but when approached he "clammed up". Webber said after contined attempts, and at some considerable cost, he was unable to "ferret" out anything of value regarding this particular version of Earhart's disapperance. On Saipan, Webber said he finally was able to arrange an interview with an old lady who "saw the lady pilot" but,to make a long story short, never could connect with her for an interview.Frustrated, Webber said he returned to his research on the Japanese naval activities on Saipan, the launching of airplanes from subs, etc.(His book Silent Seige III published in 1992 is available). Webber said he believed that beginning in 1934 the Japanese were arming the Marshalls and Saipan and began an extensive effort to fortify her possessions. He also believe that the Japanese were in and around the Marshalls with various freighters and "fishing boats" and were capable of intercepting US Navy and Coast Guard radio traffic, but he said, he could provide no documentation or proof. I provided this summary to show that an honest, respected researcher made reasonable efforts to verify the Earhart "appearance" in the Marshalls and completely struck out; time,and mostly money, Webber said, precluded further efforts in 1975. By the way,he also added that he was unable to document James Forrestals presence at the Aslito airfield just after the invasion when Devine saw him order the Electra burned!! LTM, Ron Bright ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:03:25 EDT From: Frank Westlake Subject: USS Colorado (BB45) Reunion The USS Colorado (BB45) is having a reunion in Saint Louis, MO, October 5-9, 2000. Contact: (This information was published in "Shift Colors: The Newsletter for Navy Retirees" Volume 45 Issue #2.) Andy Andresen (sic) 16436 14th Avenue SW Seattle, WA 98166-2820 (800)472-7860 - - - Frank Westlake ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:10:46 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Drums (Fuel or otherwise) Ric wrote: >Supposedly, most of it was stored in the quonset huts. There was a >brief article in Pacific Islands Monthly sometime in the mid-1950s entitled >"Valuable Radio Equipment Rusts On Gardner Island" lamenting how the >Americans abandoned much of the Loran equipment (which was probably >by then obsolete and, like so much other WWII equipment, not worth >retrieving). Uncle Sam in general, and most notoriously, his military, has its own way of reckoning value, and a lot of usable equipment, even factory-new, has gone into the drink as "expended in use". Some WW2 electronic equipment was used into the 1960s (early part of Viet Nam war) and even 1970s (some navigation beacon transmitters and comm gear at small airports.) >According to the guys who were there, exploring and sightseeing were >extremely limited. The commanding officer was concerned about >"fraternization" with the locals and restricted his men to the immediate >area of the station. Social trips to the village were organized and s>upervized. There probably was a point to keeping GIs away from island people. And on a small island, the only way to do this was, i suppose, make most of the island, and not just the village, off limits. I had imagined this would have been a pretty interesting duty station, and moderate fun (at least for a while). But from what I've just learned, it now seems more like a prison sentence. Hue Miller ************************************************************************** From Ric As a matter of fact, the inmates of Unit 92 actually called the island "The Rock." We've only met one veteran, Ernest Zehms, who claims to have done any significant amount of exploring around the island. The others describe days of boredom and lethargy. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:21:08 EDT From: Ric Subject: The pot boils on... The word on the street is that Rollin Reineck has written yet another article for Air Comics about how Earhart was captured by the Japanese. If someone would like to fax me a copy the number is (302) 994-7945. Who knows? Maybe he has important new information. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:42:22 EDT From: Ric Subject: article received Dennis McGee was kind enough to fax me a copy of Reineck's article within about five minutes of my asking. Thanks Den. I'll look it over and report later. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:32:33 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Earhart Museum Well I don't think this site adds much to finding where Amelia Earhart landed, but it does have selected news clippings (including the contact with a ham operator after she went down, I am not saying this was a correct report) and some really good background info on her, it is the web site of the Amelia Earhart Birthplace Museum. Here is the URL, http://www.ameliaearhartmuseum.org/index2.html Regards to the group. Warren Lambing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:46:57 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: WOMBAT? Sorry, I must have dozed off during this thread. So, Ross is "Wombat," from henceforth, eh? Well, good, now who is the winner that gets the T-shirt I promised in the "Let's-give-a-nickname-to-Ross D." contest? More importantly, how much do I owe TIGHAR for the shirt? p.s. Could we go to using our full names on the forum? We're starting to sound like a 12-step group, "Hi, I'm Bill W. . . . ." LTM, a slow, but spirited soul Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ************************************************************************** From Ric The lucky winner of the McGee Memorial Moniker Tee-shirt is Dave Porter. His winning posting follows: <> That'll be 20 bucks Dennis and Dave will need to let me know what size he needs and whether he wants the Earhart Project shirt, the Noonan Project shirt, the "Love to Mother" forum shirt, or the straight TIGHAR shirt. I would also prefer that people use their full names. The frequent posters I know but it takes a lot of time to look up the names of the less prolific contributors. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:35:26 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Wombat contest Congrats to Dave Porter on winning the T-shirt, and to Ross on his new name. I hope both will wear their new possessions with pride and confidence. Congrats to Ric for squeezing another 20 simolians out of me. It means the kids won't get new shoes now, but then it is summer so I guess they can go barefoot. (*sigh!*) LTM, who abhors barefoot and pregnant Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ************************************************************************** From Ric Funny. I've never heard you mention any kids. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:35:34 EDT From: Ric Subject: Reineck article I've read the latest article by Rollin Reineck which appears in the current issue of Air Classics magazine and offer my observations and comments below. For those who may not know, Rollin Reineck is a retired USAF colonel who has become one of the most prolific of the Earhart conspiracy theorists. Since 1993 his primary soapbox has been a "warbird" and WWII aviation enthusiast magazine called Air Classics. By my count, this latest is the eighth feature article he has written for the magazine, all of which beat the same drum - Earhart was a spy who was captured by the Japanese. Of course, the big problem with the Japanese capture scenario has always been the utter lack of evidence that it happened. The entire legend has been built around a selective compilation of unsubstantiated stories, imaginative out-of-context interpretations of contemporaneous reports, and the peculiar paranoia that pervades the logic process of the clinical conspiracy theorist. This latest offering by Mr. Reineck, most of which is devoted to a re-hash of the traditional parade of researchers and eyewitnesses, also claims to present contemporaneous documentary evidence to support a key assumption in the captured-by-the-Japanese hypothesis - that Earhart and Noonan turned northwest (337 degrees) on the line of position after failing to find Howland Island, and ended up in the Japanese-administered Marshall Islands. In fact, the title of the article is "Can't find Howland. We're turning north." Oddly, Reineck begins his piece by quoting the final message heard by Itasca as: "KHAQQ to Itasca. (3105) We are on a line 157/337. Will repeat this on 6210. Wait. (6210) We are running on XX3 line. Listening on 62/0 kcs." Reineck says, "This is the message that is reported in the radio logs of the Itasca." But that's not true. The original log entry looks like this: KHAQQ TO ITASCA WE ARE ON THE LINE 157 337 WL REPT MSG WE WL REPT THIS ON 6210 KCS WAIT, 3105/A3 S5 (?/KHAQQ XMISION WE ARE RUNNING ON N ES S LINE Correctly translated, the message says: "KHAQQ to Itasca. We are on the line 157 337. Will repeat message. We will repeat this on 6210 kilocycles. Wait." Then there is an operator's notation that the message was heard on 3105 kilocycles in voice (A3) at maximum strength (S5). The last part of the message is an addendum crowded onto the page and appears to indicate that another transmission from Earhart was heard after the operator thought she was finished. He is uncertain of its content but thinks she said, "We are running on north and south line." Where Reineck got the "XX3" bit is a mystery and he seems to be under the impression that it was heard on 6210 kcs when, in fact, Itasca never heard anything on that frequency. The "Listening on 62/0 kcs" we can write off to Air Classics' famous talent for typos, but for a supposedly experienced Earhart researcher to make such fundamental errors in representing basic and crucial information does not bode well for the rest of the article. Reineck then announces that the messages recorded in the Itasca's log "do not reflect the messages that were heard on Howland Island by Army officers Lt. Daniel Cooper and Lt. Henry Lau. It has been DOCUMENTED (emphasis in the original) that these two Army officers heard Earhart say she was turning north." And where is this startling revelation documented? Reineck says it's in an inter-office memo written by a Col. H.H. Richards who was Air Liaison Officer in Australia and addressed to the Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence at the War Department. Reineck does not provide a date for the memo but quotes it as saying: "Attached letter from a man in Australia alleges that the Earhart plane was shot down by the Japanese. It is definitley known that this is not the case. Miss Earhart was heard on her radio by Army personnel stationed at Howland Island and, judging from the strength of the radio signal, she passed quite close to the island - some 50 miles or less. Shortly thereafter she stated that she was turning north and they continued to hear her at intervals, her signals becoming fainter each time received until she finally stated that she was out of gas. That was the last heard from her." It is, of course, not difficult for a dedicated conspiracy buff to accept that all of the offical reports of events on Howland and aboard Itasca were falsified to cover up the certain knowledge that Earhart had turned north. Perhaps sending the Colorado to search the LOP southeast of Howland was part of the cover-up, or maybe the Army did not tell the Navy what it knew. Reineck certainly has no trouble assuming that Henry Lau, who is listed in all the paperwork as a Department of Interior employee, is secretly an Army lieutenant, and that somehow he and Lt. Cooper are hearing Earhart's fading messages on some unknown radio on Howland Island when, in fact, the Itasca's deck log and Cooper's report agree that Cooper was back aboard the Itasca at 10 a.m. Any good conspracy buff can explain all that away as part of the cover up and Reineck does say, "There is presumptive evidence (what the heck is presumptive evidence?) that the captain of the Itasca, anchored off Howland Island, also heard her, as he got under-way shortly after 10:00 a.m. to search the ocean in the northern sectors from Howland Island as the most likley area to look for her." (Psst, Rolly. Itasca wasn't anchored.) What presents a problem for Mr. Reineck is that the same document that exposes the cover-up also confirms that it is "definitely known" that Earhart was not shot down by the Japanese and that she ran out of gas. If you're going to accept the document as the revealed truth, you can't pick and choose what part you want to accept. Of course, a more plausible explanation might be that Col. Richards doesn't know what the heck he's talking about - any more than Mr. Reineck does. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:54:47 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Last Transmission Have just read your recent post about Mr. Reineck, which contains the actual language as logged on the Itasca. I think this is the first time I have seen the full content of the actual log. I have disregarded most of the material about Reineck, but the parenthetical at the end of the log caught my attention. "We are running on N ES S line". You translate this as "We are running on north and south line". I agree with your translation of N equals North and S equals South, this would appear to be standard compass interpretation or shorthand using cardinal points of the compass, but does ES equal "and"? You have printed the message in all caps, is it so in the log? Cardinal points of the compass are generally in upper case, thus I have no trouble with N and S being North and South, but if in fact the middle letters are ES, and not mis-printed in post, I have trouble making ES into "and". SE would be Southeast, could ES be East of South as a surveyor would call a bearing? For example, to show the direction of a leg on a survey, a surveyor might call a heading of 157 degrees as South, 23 degrees East, meaning to rotate the called bearing 23 degrees east of the cardinal point, in this case, south. I admit this would be the first time I have seen this done counter-clockwise. The ES must have meant something to the radio operator, but I question whether or not it meant "and" *************************************************************************** From Ric The log is in all caps. ES is standard radio shorthand for "and." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:05:14 EDT From: Ric Subject: Coup in Fiji Several forum subscribers have noted late breaking news of a coup in Fiji. This is of intense interest to us not only because Fiji has been our staging area and embarkation point for most of our expeditions to Nikumaroro, but because our on-going research into the eventual fate of the bones is centered in Fiji. Here's what the Associated Press is saying: Fiji Prime Minister Taken Hostage .c The Associated Press SUVA, Fiji (AP) - After months of simmering ethnic tensions in Fiji, seven masked, armed men stormed parliament today and took the prime minister and his entire Cabinet hostage, saying they had seized power in the island nation. The gunmen fired at least two shots from AK-47 rifles inside parliament before locking up Prime Minister Mahendra Chaudhry, his Cabinet ministers and lawmakers of the ruling coalition in the legislature's upper chamber. No injuries were reported among the estimated 50 hostages. Chaudhry is Fiji's first ethnic Indian prime minister and his year-old administration the first to be dominated by Indo-Fijians, a fact that has angered some indigenous Fijians. Fiji is a Pacific Ocean island group about 2,250 miles northeast of Sydney, Australia. George Speight, who described himself as the coup leader, said he had seized power on behalf of all ethnic Fijians. He appointed an opposition lawmaker as interim prime minister in Chaudhry's place and suspended the constitution. Late today, he claimed all ethnic Fijian parties supported his move and said he had the backing of the Fijian military, local media reported. His claim could not immediately be verified and the military could not be reached for comment. Mobs of youths rampaged through the streets of Suva after the coup, burning and looting shops, while up to 5,000 people gathered outside parliament chanting and cheering in support of the attack. Happy truck drivers played reggae music. Smoke hung over the downtown area as dozens of stores - which are predominantly owned by ethnic Indians - went up in flames. Police imposed a curfew late today and troops fanned out across the city to protect private property. There was no indication the soldiers were moving to end the hostage standoff. Speight said the ethnic Fijian-dominated armed forces "are passive but remain at the beck and call and the control of the civilian government that is in place at this time that is headed by myself." He also said Chaudhry and his supporters were safe. President Ratu Sir Kamisese Mara declared a state of emergency and appealed to the hostage-takers to release the lawmakers. He also urged the army and police to restore the rule of law. "I regret to say what is happening today is not in accordance with the constitution and is therefore unlawful," Ratu Mara said. The failure of Fiji's police and army to try to put down the revolt led to fears that the rebels may have widespread backing from native Fijians. But one analyst said Speight had little support. "He is a person who is, I think, politically naive, personally ambitious and eager for some limelight," said Pacific analyst Professor Brij Lal of the Australian National University. "I don't think he represents any constituency except a group of disgruntled Fijians." Speight, the son of an opposition lawmaker, released a statement saying he had taken control of Fiji, a local news Web site reported. "Through these actions I am asserting ownership, am asserting control and I a m asserting executive power over Fiji. We have revoked the constitution and have set that aside," Speight said, adding that the coup leaders had also revoked the powers of the president. Tension has been building for months in Fiji between ethnic Indians, who make up about 44 percent of the nation's 813,000 people, and the Fijians, who account for 51 percent. The turmoil came on the first anniversary of the election of Chaudhry, who Fijian nationalists have accused of promoting pro-Indian policies. Criticism centers mainly on attempts by Chaudhry to persuade Fijian landowners to renew expiring leases on farmland held by thousands of ethnic Indian tenants who are the core of his political support. Both Australia and New Zealand called for the immediate release of the hostages and a return to the rule of law. "I'm horrified that such an act should be carried out against a democratically elected leader," said Australian Prime Minister John Howard, who was on a visit to South Korea. New Zealand Foreign Minister Phil Goff urged Fijians not to support the power grab. "The use of armed force to attempt to overthrow a democratically elected government is utterly unacceptable to New Zealand and other members of the international community," he said. The U.S. Embassy in Suva echoed that, saying: "The consequences of any unconstitutional seizure of power would be very substantial." Speaking from Fiji, Australian David Pitt, finance manager with the Air Fiji airline, said some foreigners were preparing to leave the country. Sitiveni Rabuka, a former army colonel who led two coups in 1987, visited parliament and pleaded with the gunmen to surrender, but they refused. Rabuka, who held power for 12 years after the coups, was accompanied by senior army and police officials. He did manage to secure the release of speaker Apenisa Kurisiqila, the local news website Fijilive.com reported. Rabuka left parliament and headed for talks with Ratu Mara late today. He did not comment on conditions inside parli- ament. On the Net: Fiji government: www.fiji.gov.fj/ Fiji online news service: www.fijilive.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:06:45 EDT From: Skeet Gifford Subject: Iceman Having read an earlier book about the 5,300 year old mummy found in the Alps almost a decade ago and having seen the TV documentary, I was none the less intrigued by a new book on the subject, Iceman, by Brenda Fowler, Random House, 2000, ISBN 0-679-43167-5. The bibliography alone is worth the price of the book. The link to TIGHAR and its mission is that Ms Fowler does a disturbingly thorough job of documenting desecration of the site. While early mistakes are clearly the result of ignorance, some of the most grievous loss was suffered AFTER it was known that it was unique and exceptionally valuable find. Given human nature, it is not remarkable that ANY artifact survives intact? LTM, who never saw a museum she didn't like. Skeet Gifford ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 09:55:24 EDT From: Kristing Tague Subject: Codebooks, wombats and coups one late comment and one marginally on topic comment - When I was going through the classified telegram and savings gram traffic from sir Harry Luke's office during WWII there were regular references to code books being received and earlier versions being destroyed. I'll recheck and see if there is anything about Gallagher or other remote staff having regular copies of code books coming in. If so that could mean that Gallagher's communications were in code. You and Kent probably have a better idea than I , but I imagine that the majority of telegram messages from Gardener were sent to Fiji conducting regular business. I wanted you to know that the official unofficial name of our "VIP" lounge here at The Research Libraries Group" is the Wombat Lounge. It began when the President brought back a Wombat from an Australia trip and everyone that has gone after has brought a different wombat home. About 8 Wombats now but very tasteful with leather sofas and Persian carpet. Let me know if anyone whose nickname is Wombat might be in need of an official headquarters. Re- the coup in Fiji. No saying if the coup will stand at this point - it depends largely on whether the army and police take a stand on either side. Tom King and I have been chatting about this over the last couple of weeks because we could see tensions escalating. There was a coup in 1987 that re-established the primacy of indigenous Fijians and negated the existing constitution. After long years of talks a new constitution was put in to place about two years ago and elections held. The Fijians didn't consolidate their vote and an "Indian" government was elected. In the first year of holding office the government began to tinker with all the hot buttons ; reducing the power of the President (who is mandated to be Fijian), changing the infrastructure that protects Fijian land rights and opposing the Great Council of chiefs. The bottom line is that it is too bad the constitution and open elections didn't have much of a chance to get established before these major issues got stirred up. Once they did the result was pretty predictable. The final outcome of course is yet to be seen. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:01:27 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Coup in Fiji Forumites might also be interested in knowing that President Ratu Mara was a student of Dr. Hoodless' around the time the bones were found. We made an effort to interview him while in Fiji, but he was very busy. As he obviously is now. LTM Tom ************************************************************************* From Amanda Dunham Isn't Fiji still a member of the British Commonwealth? And, if so, won't Her Majesty and Tony Blair have something to say about this? LTM, who admits it's been awhile since she studied geography Amanda Dunham ************************************************************************* From Ric That connection is purely nostalgic. Her Majesty and Tony would be well advised to keep their heads down. ************************************************************************ From Dave Porter Ric, I trust that all of TIGHAR's many friends on Fiji are safe and healthy, and not caught up in the current bit of unpleasantness there. Media details still pretty sketchy as far as I can tell. Gunfire and hostages in Suva--possibly a coup attempt, or just a really violent protest of some sort. I don't know if you guys at HQ have any regular contact with the Fiji TIGHAR auxilary, but certainly our thoughts and prayers are with them. While I'm here, I might as well say "thanks" to Dennis (and his shoeless kids) and say that I'd love a size Large, Earhart Project t-shirt. LTM, who only allowed us to go barefoot when On The Beach (there's another Aussie reference for you Ross) Dave Porter, 2288 ************************************************************************** From Ric I've had no direct contact from anyone in Fiji, but I wouldn't think that our friends at Nai'a Fiji Cruises would be in much danger. If things get hot in town they can always put to sea. Revolutions and riots, however, tend to be bad for the tourist trade and that could have an adverse effect on their business. One large Earhart Project Tee coming up. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:02:38 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Carl Sagan quote Can some wise Forumer give me the correct quote from Carl Sagan about extraordinary hypotheses requiring extraordinary proofs, preferably with a source citation? Thanks LTM (who's pretty extraordinary) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:32:47 EDT From: Joe Subject: ES means and "ES" on cw in the amateur bands means AND...and been using it for almost 50 years! Joe W3HNK ************************************************************************** From Ric As I'm sure you know, there is a whole catalog of standard radio shorthand that changes a bit from time to time and source to source. The original Itasca radio logs are very difficult to fully understand without a good grounding in what the various abbreviations and notations mean. We've gone to some lengths to determine what the Coast Guard was using in 1937. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:38:19 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: The silent wombat Just as a matter of interest, I haven't dropped off the face of the earth... Just keeping my hairy paws out of my mouth for a change.. Th' WOMBAT ************************************************************************* From Ric Yeah, we were kind of worried. The Wombat goes silent and suddenly there's a coup in Fiji. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:58:55 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: Coup in Fiji While trying to follow the news on Fiji, I found this great daily program on Radio Australia. The name of the program is Pacific Beat Today, they post this program in Real Audio, and update date it every day at 1200 GMT (8:00 AM, eastern U.S Time) Here is the URL http://www.abc.net.au/ra/pacbeat/audio.htm Here is the web base service printed form of this same program http://www.abc.net.au/ra/pacbeat/ Also the BBC is running full coverage on the World Service, there news broadcast on there hourly news, has continuos updates on Fiji, you can find the Audio feed to the BBC World Service here http://www.bbc.co.uk/audiovideo/ Regards. Warren ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:00:44 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Coup in Fiji Re. the Commonwealth: after the last coup Fiji was expelled from the Commonwealth, as I recall, but was re-admitted after the Constitution was adopted and elections held. Re. friends: while the Naiads may be safe enough, our friends at the Fiji Museum and around town are rather another matter. In the past, coups in Fiji have been pretty bloodless, but that's no guarantee of the future. The military is the big question, I imagine. Fiji has a highly trained, well-equipped military that's big in UN peacekeeping work. If they backed the coup leaders, there wouldn't be much question who'd be in charge. TK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:06:57 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Coup in Fiji The situation in Fiji has been simmering for quite a while. There was a threat of trouble a few years ago when it looked like an elected government might consist of mostly non-indigenous members. Kind of like the British parliament being made up of West Indian people. There is a large Indian population in Fiji, and as I understand it, the coup is just to return government to the Fijians themselves. Once the situation settles down, the people should return to their normal happy selves in short order. If Nai'a is run by the Fijians there should not be much drama. One report I read when I was studying the cultural aspects of the country suggested that the Indians are to Fiji what the Chinese are to Indonesia (and the Jews were to Hitler's Germany). They are the small business owners, the mangers, the bankers. This same report suggested that the Fijians "laid back" attitude allowed the Indians to control much of the economy, thereby paving the way for an Indian majority in their assembly, which would then cause racial friction as the Fijians were forced out of their own law making process. I suspect this is what has happened over there. Once the Fijians (in minority as far as population these days) consider they control their own country again the situation will probably pass as if nothing happened at all. Th' Wombat... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:32:27 EDT From: Frank Westlake Subject: Sagan quote > From Tom King > > ...the correct quote from Carl Sagan about extraordinary > hypotheses requiring extraordinary proofs, preferably with a > source citation? "I believe that the extraordinary should be pursued. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." The Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark, Carl Sagan, 1996. "I believe that the extraordinary should certainly be pursued. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Broca's Brain, Carl Sagan, 1986. The former is frequently cited but I found only the one quote citing the latter, The latter quote also has a misspelling of "pursued". I haven't read either book and can't verify these quotes. Frank Westlake ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:38:23 EDT From: Bill Moffet Subject: Skull identification In last month's postings on Earhart's teeth, Caldwell-Luc, etc., you commented on her wide grin and display of a full set of choppers in a photo. Watching TV-show tapes, I was struck by the wide gap between two of her upper incisors. Don't believe a tooth is missing, simply there's a space between the teeth just below and to the left of the centerline of her nose. Gray's Anatomy doesn't show me if this apparent anomaly would help in identification should the Bones Search prove successful. Maybe it's not worth discussion. If the skull is found, DNA will decide the matter. LTM, who never grinned for the photographer Bill Moffet #2156 ************************************************************************* From Ric It's seems from Gallagher's descriptions that there were no teeth in the upper jaw when the skull came out of the hole. What teeth there were (5) were in the lower jaw which was found with the other bones. Whether the holes for the roots of the front teeth would indicate if there had been a gap is beyond my paygrade. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:03:58 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Sagan quote Excellent. Thank you, Frank. Once again the Forum knows all, tells all. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:09:59 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Buttonwood Report This is a report of some work done on looking into the U.S. Coast Guard vessel Buttonwood's visit to Gardner I. in 1947. To recap, Ric had received a call last year from Dan Skellie, a Coast Guard veteran of the Buttonwood who stated that the ship, after calling at Canton I., had dropped off an officer on Gardner for some unspecified mission. This was an officer not normally assigned to the ship. He put the date in early January, 1947 (also a date ascribed to the wreck photo). Dan remembers the date as his 'shellback' certificate for crossing the International Date Line is Jan.9, 1947. He further indicated that Capt. Jenkins, the C.O., left the ship at Pago Pago and flew to Suva, Fiji, purportedly for a vacation. This, in and of itself would seem to be unusual, according to naval historians who state that he would only have left on official business. At this point, Tom Van Hare volunteered to make a manual search of the ship's deck logs at the National Archives. He reported back that the logs beginning with Oct. 1946 were missing. With permission, I made a request to the archives for the Muster Rolls. They eventually reported back, that the Coast Guard Muster Rolls, unlike the Navy's, were still in possession of the Coast Guard. I then submitted an FOIA request to the Coast Guard for the Muster Rolls of the Buttonwood for Dec 46 and Jan 47. What ensued was a comedy of errors in which the USCG managed to lose my request twice. When questioned by fax and by letter, they responded that the Records Center had mailed the muster rolls in question but they had not arrived at the FOIA office, therefore they would not be able to help me. After punching the right buttons, the rolls arrived about two weeks later. I did do a conference call with Dan Skellie of Ohio and Bill Catron of California of the original crew and discussed what they remembered about the crew. Dan did recall a wooden pier on the lagoon side of Gardner which added credence to that being at least one of the islands visited. I also spoke with Ed Ziegler, also of Ohio. Without the deck logs, it is difficult to track a vessels movements, however it can be approximated since the signature of the captain is noted monthly as to location of the ship. The rolls also show regular crewmembers, enlisted and officers, as well as passengers. Two names popped up as having no good explanation for being aboard, an Ensign Robert Schwing and a Lt(jg) Howard Linse. I then requested Feb and Mar 47 rolls to see what happened to these two officers and check on the Captain's reported visit to Suva. Upon examination, both officers disappear after January and no note is made of any trip by the captain to Suva. The orders assigning Schwing and Linse are referenced, so another FOIA request was sent off. Again, the letter is lost in the bureaucracy and it takes some more jabbing to pry it loose. The payoff is a copy of the orders for Lt(jg) Linse in which he is ordered to 'report to the Commanding Officer, CGC Buttonwood, for temporary duty of approximately 30 days duration as direct representative of the Commander, 14th Coast Guard District, for the purpose of inspecting Loran stations of the Phoenix chain, renewing contracts with native caretakers at Gardner and Atafu and investigating the possibilities of future Loran station sites on the islands of Tutuila, Samoa and Howland Island. Upon completion of this temporary duty, you will return to Honolulu, T.H. and resume your regular duties'. He departed Honolulu on a CG aircraft on 10Jan47 and boarded the Buttonwood at Canton on the 11th. Ric and I feel Linse was probably not left on the island as it would make more sense for the ship to wait for him to check the equipment and contact the natives. Without the deck logs, we don't know how long the stay was. As Ric indicated, it would be interesting to know whether the 'bone story' was related to Linse as it had been to Coast Guardsman Floyd Kilts in a little over a year earlier. According to the Social Security Death Index, there was only one match for Howard Linse. If indeed the correct person, he was born in 1917 and died in Oregon in 19--. That would have made him about 30 at the time of the cruise. I have a request in now to a contact in Oregon to try to obtain an obituary. It would be interesting to try to talk to a relative in the off chance he kept any mementos of the cruise or even a diary. So it appears we now know at least the who and the why of the visit of the Buttonwood. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 ************************************************************************** From Ric And THAT, my friends, is how you do historical research. Thanks Ron. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 08:59:20 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Buttonwood Report I just finished reading Mr. Dawson's e-mail on the Buttonwood Report and found it quite fascinating. It also raised a number of questions. Has any attempt be made to track down Ensign Schwing as was done with Lt. Linse? Why would the Commandant, 14th Coast Guard District assign Messrs Schwing and Linse to make a study--did they have some special expertise in Loran; what were their "normal" duties in Hawaii? Ensigns and Lieutenants wouldn't seem to have the rank to be making these types of investigations/reports. Is there a log of the Coast Guard Station on Gardner and does it show the arrival of Buttonwood and the two officers? Did they make a written report and where might it be filed? I would assume, given the scope of their orders, that they would have had to file some form of written memorandum with recommendations for endorsement by their chain of command. If Capt. Jenkins left the ship sometime around mid-January, shortly after Skellie "crossed the line", who commanded the vessel as it transported Schwing and Linse, sometime after their arrival on the 11th, to Garder? I raise these questions not to provide additional work to Mr. Dawson, who prepared a detailed memo, based upon substantial research, but to scratch an "itch" which keeps returning each time the forum finds additional "lost" materials. I also find it extremely amazing that Capt. Jenkins is given a "vacation" and flies, apparently at Coast Guard expense to Suva, Fiji, one of the places that TIGHAR feels the bones may have been forwarded to, (TIGHAR TRACKS, Vol. 15, p. 18) all within one year of Floyd Kilts hearing the "bones" story. I am firmly of the opinion that Kilts passed the story on to any and all members of the station at the time he heard it; for a sailor (coastie) to not pass on "scuttlebutt" would be tatamount to turning down free beer. Is their any possiblity that this odd set of circumstances relates to AE info passing, officially or un-officially, up the chain of command? The US Navy and or Coast Guard might not appreciate any reports finding "bones" on islands they had "searched" at the time of disappearance. ************************************************************************** From Ric There was, indeed, a written report - as Chuck Boyle has just informed us. Personally, I don't see anything odd about a junior officer getting stuck with the job of inspecting the storage of obsolete radio gear on remote islands. No support has been found for the allegation that the captain of the Buttonwood took a "vacation" in "The Fijis" when the ship reached Pago Pago (nobody ever said he left while the ship was at sea). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:02:35 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Buttonwood Report A thought which struck me reading this was whether, in some way, the Captain of the vessel found out about the bones discovery, reported it, and was ordered to visit the British in Suva. Seems doubtful, as I suspect that something like this would be handled at higher levels. --Chris Kennedy ************************************************************************* From Ric Except Ron has been able to find no evidence that Skellie's recollection that the captain visited Suva is correct. ************************************************************************* From Chuck Boyle This is an interesting posting. When Tom King and I went to the Washington, DC archives several months ago I found a nine (9) page report dated 12 February 1947 Subject: Phoenix Island Loran Stations; inspection of. The report is from Lieutenant (jg) Howard A. Linse, USCG which he sent to the Commander, 14th Coast Guard District. His report starts by telling of his arrival at Canton Island 11 January 1947. He started his inspection at Canton on January 13, l947. The USCG Buttonwood was present and provided transportation for the inspection party to the Loran Stations on Baker, Gardner and Atafu. The C. O. Lt. Frank C. Anderson was present on Canton. A Captain P. G. Roberts, the British representative at Canton, was also in attendance. Arrived via the Buttonwood at Baker Island 18 January 1947. They proceeded to Gardner Island arriving 21 January. The Buttonwood arrived Atafu Island 23 January 1947. The report does not list the departure date from Atafu or where it went after Atafu. The report is dated 12 February 1947 so they must have returned sometime on that date or before. Presently I have a problem with my scanner. I will have it taken care of very shortly and will copy the complete nine (9) page report. I think you will find the report to be very interesting. Lee (Chuck) Boyle USCG stationed on Atafu Island 1945-46. The best of the Phoenix Islands. Member 2060 ************************************************************************** From Ric Bingo. We'll put it up on the website. Sounds like Buttonwood was at Gardner for only about one day. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:14:32 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Buttonwood Report For Mike Muenich -- Ric's right; Chuck Boyle and I have gone through the Unit 92 logs and associated files, and there IS a report of the inspection tour and renegotiation of the caretaker contract(as Chuck has noted). As for Kilts telling the story to his colleagues, I'd be surprised if he didn't, too, but the one survivor of his working group we've been able to locate so far, John Powrzanis, said he had no recollection of the story at all. We're still tracking the three others who may still be alive. TKing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:25:13 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: Kilts story and the Coast Guard Was the Floyd Kilts story which was published in the San Diego Tribune in 1960 investigated further by TIGHAR ( I may have missed it,my reference is only the Tighar tracks of Dec 1998) Namely, was the reporter still around to be interviewed and was Kilts listed in a log of a Coast Guard ship that landed to dismantle the Loran station circa 1946? Did Kilts ever tell that same story to his shipmates,relatives and why did he go forward to the paper in 1960? His recollection of the native's tale of the skeleton and the shoes is certainly quite detailed(and pretty accurate) after some 23 years. Did he ever make an official report to the Coast Guard of this revelation in 1946 as certainly this would be of significance for an offical Coast Guard report. Did Kilts ever write notes on this matter? Maybe forum members have tackled this investigation already. I do have a Coast Guard source that may be of help,if necessary. LTM, Ron Bright *************************************************************************** From Ric As you might imagine, we've tried our darnedest to follow up on the Kilts story. I've talked to the reporter but he didn't remember much about the story at all and did not keep any of his notes. We have confirmed through official records that Kilts was there, but we're aware of no official report and the one other veteran we've found who was also there at the time does not remember hearing the story from either Kilts or the locals. Tom King has been in touch with Kilts' daughter who says that her father was actually working on a book about the incident when he died. Efforts to locate any surviving notes or manuscript have, unfortunately, come to naught. What prompted Kilts' call to the newspaper was all the hoopla in June 1960 about Fred Goener's discovery of Josephine Blanco who claimed to have seen AE on Saipan. Kilts' was merely saying, "No, no, no. That's not what happened." LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:30:57 EDT From: Frank Westlake Subject: Earhart's Contribution to Aviation My Page-A-Day trivia calendar has this for Sep 13, 2000: "Who designed the first lightweight luggage for air travel?" "Aviation Pioneer Amelia Earhart." So, we have that. Frank Westlake ************************************************************************** From Ric But in fact, Amelia didn't design anything. The Baltimore Luggage Company was coming out with a new line of lightweight suitcases for air travel and cut a deal with Putnam for the use of Amelia's name. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:32:28 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: Buttonwood Report I omitted reporting on Ensign Schwing since his orders dated 3Dec46 sent him via the Buttonwood to Canton I. 'upon arrival report to the CG Loran Monitor Station, that place, for assignment to temporary duty as Officer-In-Charge, Caretaker Detail, and as relief for Ensign Frank C. Anderson, USCG. Duration of this duty will be approximately 3 months'. Then routine verbage followed by this paragraph. 'While performing this duty as Officer-In-Charge, Caretaker Detail, Canton Island, you will have additional duties as Officer-In-Charge, Navy AVR vessel, C-26642, at that place'. (wonder if this vessel had inter-island capability?) Frank Anderson then comes to the Buttonwood as Exec, reporting on the 15th, promoted to Lt(jg) with DOR 1Jan47. There is no record of Capt. Jenkins leaving for Suva, at least on the muster rolls, between 1Dec 46 and 1 Apr 47. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:56:57 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Sagan in context Perhaps not totally off-topic. The quote from "Broca's Brain," by Carl Sagan is on page 62 of the hard-cover book. (Yard-sale some years ago! I'd not read it.) The first copyright was 1974. "Broca's Brain" -- Paul Broca was a surgeon, a neurologist and an anthropologist, a major figure in the development of both medicine and anthropology in the mid-nineteenth century -- and a "freethinker." His biography is impressive. P. Broca's brain resides in a jar in a neglected storeroom of the Musee de l'Homme in Paris. Sagan had held the jar in his hand -- and fancied the idea that might be sitting there still, sluggish with formalin, in Broca's brain. Sagan is speaking of an organization, and a committee, seeking to provide some focus for skepticism on the border of science. Possibly of some interest to the forum, he says: "...The committee has also made official protests to the networks and the Federal Communications Commission about television programs on pseudoscience that are particularly uncritical. An interesting debate has gone on within the committee between those who think that all doctrines that smell of pseudoscience should be combated and those who believe that each issue should be judged on its own merits, but that the burden of proof should fall squarely on those who make the proposals. I find myself very much in the later camp. I believe that the extraordinary should be pursued. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." In view of the general content of the book, I think "extraordinary evidence" means evidence that can not be explained by ordinary knowledge of how things work (science), and that could not possibly have been faked. LTM (Who is extraordinarly distressed by junk-science) Vern Klein 2124 *************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Vern. Taken in context, it does seem that Sagan was not saying that those who are trying to correct commonly held, but erroneous, views should be held to a higher standard of evidence. If we were trying to test, and hoping to prove, the hypothesis that Amelia was abducted by space aliens, Sagan's comment would have some relevance. There is, however, nothing extraordinary about the idea that Earhart and Noonan landed at Gardner Island. In fact, our whole point is that, once the facts of the case are understood, nothing could be more ordinary. What is true is that anyone trying to correct commonly held, but erroneous, views must have easily understood, highly compelling, and widely publicized evidence in order to succeed. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:33:58 EDT From: Hugh Graham Subject: L10A Electra rides. Anyone wishing to go for a 40 minute ride in a Lockheed L10A can do so by calling Linda Hutson at 416-447-5246. The Electra is based in Toronto, Canada, the city where AE served as a volunteer nurse's aide during the terrible 1918 flu epidemic brought home by returning vets. Employees of Air Canada run their "Dreams Take Flight" program on a volunteer basis, using the funds from the L10A flights to fund winter airlifts of sick and needy children to Disney World. Everything is donated including the Electra, pilots, ground crew and fuel. CF-TCC was the fifth of five L10A's purchased by TCA(Trans-Cda Air) in 1937 and sold to the Canadian Gov't in 1939 for the war effort. After WW2 it changed owners for 30 years until it was noticed by a retired Air Canada(successor to TCA) pilot in 1975 at a Texas air show who saw the registration letters CF-TCC through the cheap paint job. Air Canada repurchased and rebuilt the aircraft completely. It is now polished aluminum identical to 1937. It is provided free to the volunteer Air Cda. pilots and ground crew. LTM(who is going flying), HAG 2201. ************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Hugh. I've just spoken with Ms. Hutson and we're already kicking around the idea of a joint "Dreams Take Flight"/TIGHAR event. Perhaps a seminar on the Lockheed Model 10 with a focus on NR16020 and rides in CF-TCC. Might be a lot of fun. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:36:00 EDT From: Clyde Miller Subject: Re: Earhart's Contribution to Aviation <> And so....from that moment on...the concept of "Lost" airline luggage began. Clyde Miller (who looks for any reason to "carry-on" off-topic) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:38:28 EDT From: Michael Holt Subject: Re: Buttonwood Report > 'While performing this duty as Officer-In-Charge, > Caretaker Detail, Canton Island, you will have additional duties as > Officer-In-Charge, Navy AVR vessel, C-26642, at that place'. (wonder if > this vessel had inter-island capability?) What is a "Navy AVR vessel, C-26642"? Looking at Silverstone's "U.S. Warships of World War II" (in which the Buttonwood, AGL 306, is listed on page 388), I see that AV is the designation for an "aviation auxilary," as a seaplane tender (AV, AVD, AVP). The identifier is listed (Silverstone, page 393) as the standard nomenclature for a "aircraft rescue vessel." I've not yet found a list of AVRs in WW2, but I'll keep looking in the book. Was this C-26642 a launch? How did the Coast Guard identify the boats that were carried on ships? is there, perhaps, a log or other formal record of the C-26642? Michael Holt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:52:11 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Sagan in context <> -- Sagan expressed this idea many times in his life, and it will probably be one of the things history remembers him for. You don't need to do much convincing if you predict that the sun will rise tomorrow. That's not an extraordinary claim. Based on what we know about the subject, it probably will rise. But if you get in your head that the sun won't rise tomorrow, and decide to promote the idea, well, that would be an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary evidence, something exquisitely compelling in documentable fact and mathematical reason, would be necessary in order to convince most scientists of that, especially in time for the disputed dawn. LTM (who had her share of trouble with sunrises) william 2243 ************************************************************************* From Ric Waxing philosphical for a moment, as is our wont from time to time, we must ask by whose definition something is considered to be "extraordinary?" It is my impression that many, if not most, people today routinely accept the notion that some individuals have paranormal extrasensory ability - truly an extraordinary concept for which no scentific evidence, extraordinary or otherwise, has ever been presented. Conversely, it's hard to imagine a principle less extraordinary than evolution and yet ... well, you see my point. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:58:26 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: L10A Electra rides Even though the interior has probably changed countless times on this plane, perhaps there is something about the dado configuration which stays the same, which might make it worthwhile to take a look at this feature on this plane and compare it with our artifact. Can something like this be easily photographed, or is some disassembly required to get at it? May be worth another call to the lady. --Chris ************************************************************************** From Ric A dado like the one found on Niku, when installed on an airplane, shows up only as a thin strip of metal along the interior cabin wall about eight inches or so off the floor. Exposure of the component would require some disassembly. We already know that Lockheed 10s had dados of various descriptions (we've seen several examples) and if CF-TCC has a dado, by definition, its mounting holes are 15 inches apart, just like ours. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:34:07 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Sagan in context Well, at risk of being beat up as a fuzzy-thinking relativist, I'd suggest that what's "extraordinary" is very much in the eye of the beholder. And as beheld by most "mainstream" Earhart students -- at least before about the mid-90s -- the notion of Earhart landing on Niku rather than crashing and sinking seems pretty extraordinary. This is why we keep talking about finding smoking guns. TK ************************************************************************** From Ric I certainly agree that our problem is not that we're trying to prove the extraordinary but that we're trying to show that something at is perceived by many as extraordinary, in fact, quite ordinary. ************************************************************************** From William Webster-Garman Ric wrote, >It is my impression that many, if not most, people today >routinely accept the notion that some individuals have >paranormal extrasensory ability - truly an >extraordinary concept for which no scentific evidence, >extraordinary or otherwise, has ever been presented. >Conversely, it's hard to imagine a principle less >extraordinary than evolution and yet ... well, you see my >point. There is an important cultural component to Sagan's famous remark. Claims to extrasensory ability (and pseudo religious fixations such as a literal belief that sentient "aliens" have regularly visited the earth) are, in scientific terms, extraordinary claims. It doesn't matter if "many, if not most" people are superstitious, or ignorant, or naive, or whatever: This kind of fuzzy thinking ultimately stems from the very natural human desire to attach answers to difficult questions. There is probably a survival benefit, somewhere, to belief in such things. However, my opinion is that there is an even greater survival benefit attached to rational, scientific reasoning, as long as it is tempered by ethics and cultural sensitivity. As a consequence, valid claims that contradict long-standing misinformation or supersition can seem extraordinary to the majority of people. History is replete with examples of this. For example, educated persons in ancient Greece were well-aware that the earth was a sphere, as were many members of the ruling classes of Spain and Portugal in the late 15th century. Bringing the concept into wide acceptance among the "masses", however, required many well-publicized ocean voyages and the establishment of far flung commercial trade routes. Ultimately, the real-world impact of the earth's spherical nature, in the form of exotic trade goods from distant places and thousands of common sailors coming back to port from these highly profitable voyages firmly established the idea of a spherical earth (however dimly) into the public mind. The claim that AE and FN reached Gardner and perished there wouldn't be so extraordinary if the "ditched at sea" scenario were not so firmly established in popular memory. Our natural instinct for seeking answers to difficult questions is a hallmark of human nature, and one of our great strengths. However, to avoid abuse and cultural dead-ends, it should probably be directed towards rational thought that is subsequently subjected to rigorous and objective review. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:39:10 EDT From: Frank Westlake Subject: Re: Buttonwood Report > From Michael Holt > > What is a "Navy AVR vessel, C-26642"? From looking around the Internet it appears that an AVR was a 63 foot Aircraft Rescue Vessel with twin engines and a wooden hull. In later years some were used in the movie "McHale's Navy" and some were used by Sea Scouts. Frank Westlake ************************************************************************* From Ric So it sounds like they would have inter-island capability, if necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:58:23 EDT From: Jim Tierney Subject: Re: Buttonwood Report Ric-Just had two thoughts on C-26642 1-Wouldnt the Coasties need a launch of some size to transfer supplies/gas/diesel etc from the PBY supply flights flown by Lt. Mims-et al- to the shore on the lagoon side???????? Or was there a pier???? 2- The Coast Guard has at times and still does assign Serial Numbers or Craft numbers to all their water craft...Sometimes the five digit numbers start with the length of the craft as the first two digits---Could 26642 mean the 642nd hull of the 26 foot rescue craft/boat class??????? Just a thought from one of the lurkers out here LTM-who always hated rides in small boats... Jim Tierney ************************************************************************** From Ric The Coasties had a launch - sort of a whaleboat-type affair - that they kept in the lagoon at a small pier (one or two pilings of which still survives) down at the Loran station. The PBY's brought only mail and perishables. The heavy stuff, like drums of diesel, was delivered much less frequently by ship. The drums of diesel were actaully dumped over the side and allowed to wash in with the tide. <> Let's remember that the AVR boat at Canton was Navy, not Coast Guard. Frank Westlake seems to have determined that AVRs were 63-footers similar to a PT-boat. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:11:58 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Earhart Biography I know this has been brought up before but I just saw the Biography of Amelia Earhart on the Biography Channel. I now can better understand why the Carl Sagan quote, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (not that AE landing on Gardner is extraordinary, it really makes sense), however after seeing some of the experts claims that AE had to crash in the sea, well I can see why TIGHAR has a hard time finding funding. I thought it was of interest at least in the program I seen, that there is no mention of any post radio messages (unless it was cut). I still think there were some credible radio messages, I get the impression from what I have read that the computer model that is being use to try to recreate the conditions for radio reception disagrees with that possibility, however I am very skeptical of computer models, if you can give me an accurate long range weather forecast, from a computer model, then I would be more incline to accept your conclusions ( I believe you are trying to do the same long range forecast in reverse). I realize there are 7 year sunspot cycles, 7 years of good reception (actually 7 years to hit a peek) and 7 years of poor reception, (again 7 years of decline until you hit bottom). Anyhow it has been my experience that even on the down side of the sunspot cycle there are some good days for reception, in others words it is not an absolute. ( the only absolute, is when there is a major sunspot storm that charges the Ionosphere, and then nothing is heard). I have seen TIGHAR apply this principle often, you always try to get information as close to the event as possible, for example if a person said something in a newspaper interviewed directly after AE disappear and then years later change his story, you use the information closes to the event (that makes perfect sense). Applying that principle, (please consider I don't have the research CD) if you look at the newspaper clipping on the Amelia Earhart Birth Place Museum, newsclip from the Atchison Daily Globe, July 3, 1937 here is there URL with the clip http://www.ameliaearhartmuseum.org/newsclip/clip10.htm Forget about the report of people hearing her voice, what I find of interest on this clip is that and here is the quote (if I am breaking copyright laws feel free to cut it) "At San Francisco, however, a coast guard station reported at noon Eastern Standard time it had received no word whatever although radio reception was unusually good." Notice the San Francisco Coast Guard Station reported reception was unusually good and this is a report close to the event. (if you can show me computer with an accurate long range weather forecast I will be less skeptical :-). Regards. Warren ************************************************************************** From Ric Comparing Bob Brandenburg's modeling of the radio and antenna system to a long range weather forecast is comparing apples and oranges, but I share your skepticism that any such theoretical work can provide absolute answers - and I'm sure that Bob would agree. However, contrary to your impression, bob's analysis does not debunk all of the alleged post-loss messages. In fact, the transmissions heard by Nauru on 6210 kcs on the evening of July 2nd are very credible and, in my personal opinion, were probably genuine. Some other signals heard later by US Navy Radio in Samoa could also have been the real thing, but the case for them is not as strong. The stuff heard in Hawaii, Midway, Wake and in the U.S. is almost certainly bogus. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:27:14 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: L10A Electra rides. <> Great idea Ric ! Where would that be and when. With a bit of luck I could manage to get there. Herman ************************************************************************* From Ric Still in the idea stage, but I can see real value to a retrospective on the Model 10 as the progenitor of a whole family of great aircraft from the Model 12 "Electra Junior", to the Model 14 "Super Electra" (and "Hudson" bomber), to the Model 18 "Lodestar" (and "Ventura" patrol bomber) through, ultimately, the Model 049 Constellation. Round up some experts and some rare film. Maybe Lockheed/Martin would like to be involved. It would probaby take a year to put it together right, but it might be worth doing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:13:28 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: 10A rides? Ric said: "I've just spoken with Ms. Hutson and we're already kicking around the idea of a joint "Dreams Take Flight"/TIGHAR event. Perhaps a seminar on the Lockheed Model 10 with a focus on NR16020 and rides in CF-TCC. Might be a lot of fun." Fun, indeed, big guy! Sign me up, NOW! I vote for staging this event near your home base in Delaware, that way the participants can also have a tour of your luxurious office spaces at your new corporate headquarters high atop the 35th floor in the recently opened twin TIGHAR Towers. We may also be able to squeeze in a visit to TIGHAR's state-of-the-art forensic laboratories and archival retrieval systems under construction at TIGHAR Annex III. LTM, who loves all flying machines Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ************************************************************************* From Ric Actually it's the TIGHAR Bar & Grill. We could temprarily suspend the poker game and meet in the back room. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 08:32:26 EDT From: Dave Porter Subject: ordinary evolution Even though you brought it up, I fully realize that this may not be an off topic thread you want to pursue. I'm also setting myself up for a huge broadside from TIGHAR's well credentialed scientific department, so if you want to kill this one before it goes anywhere, please feel free. It is my understanding that the jury is still out on what is called macroevolution. (one kind of critter changing into another kind of critter) One major difficulty seems to be a lack of transitional forms in the fossil record. Microevolution (one kind of critter changing to adapt to its environment, but remaining essentially the same critter) has much wider acceptance, but is not what Darwin was talking about. One is then stuck with basing the entire field of biology on what is essentially a hypothesis--not a theory. Cynics might even call it a "leap of faith." I'm sure that it's an oversimplification of some sort, but critics of evolution often liken it to an explosion in a scrap metal yard producing a 747. The rule oft quoted is that simple organisms don't become complex organisms. To attempt to bring this marginally on topic, a bunch of factory new Lockheed parts left to the dynamic forces of Niku's reef flat and lagoon passages will not assemble themselves into a 10E Special. The reverse, on the other hand, agrees with the 2nd (I think) law of thermodynamics, and is pretty much our hypothesis of what happened to NR16020. I'm not looking to pick a fight or debate with anyone. Just wanted to play devil's advocate (or, in this case, advocate for the Other Guy) to Ric's statement regarding evolution. LTM, who pleads for gentleness for her mind-wandering boy Dave Porter, 2288 ************************************************************************** From Ric I don't think any of us want to get into a Creationism vs. Evolution debate on this forum. We have our hands full with Niku vs Sunk-at-Sea so I'll urge anyne who wants to pursue this thread off-forum to accept you invitiation and contact you directly. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:07:36 EDT From: Doug Brutlag Subject: Lockheed 10A rides Great idea about the 10A rides. I can offer celestial navigation seminars to go along with it if the interest is there. Doug Brutlag #2335 ************************************************************************* From Ric Hmmm....so we have (at least) two airplanes parked on the ramp. Step right this way folks and you can experience what it was like to fly in a Lockheed Electra. Step over here to this very similar twin-engined, twin-tailed aircraft of the same vintage and you can try your hand at shooting the sun just like Fred Noonan. This has possibilities. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:12:21 EDT From: Nina Brewer Subject: Re: L10A Electra rides. I'm in far away Albuquerque but I'd come for the ride and the bar & grill. Only thing is, you have to leave the poker game in. You might even be able to get LockheedMartin to provide some $ sponsorship if you can find out who in their corporation to market this to -- it will likely be a department that deals with community relations. /2/ a gal who likes 5-card stud. ************************************************************************** From Ric We have some contacts at Lockheed/Martin. It's worth a shot. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:20:43 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Who was aboard Bushnell There was a question awhile ago about whether E.H. Bryan might have been aboard U.S.S. Bushnell during her 1939 expedition through the Phoenix Islands. I've just re-acquainted myself with a manuscript entitled "Some Notes on Sydney Island" by Henry W. Bigelow, Jr., from the archives of the Bernice P. Bishop Museum. On the front page, the Bishop's pioneer archeologist Kenneth Emory has written: "September 1939, visit of one week, U.S.S. Bushnell, a U.S. Expedition. Bigelow had a copy of Gordon MacGregor's on the Phoenix Islands which I had furnished him." He must be referring to Gordon MacGregor's "Anthropological Work of the Templeton Crocker Expedition, 1933," in Bishop Museum Bulletin 124. Anyhow, there's no evidence I can see that Bryan was along on the Bushnell trip. Bigelow mentions Bryan, but apparently he's citing a document, not quoting the man on the spot. Incidentally, the administrator on Sydney at the time was our old friend Jack Kimo Petro. LTM (who wasn't aboard Bushnell either) Tom King *************************************************************************** From Ric If I recall correctly, in September of '39 Jack was helping Irish build a hospital on Sydney. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:47:35 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: Floyd Kilts story/Authenticity of I remain quite suspicious of the authenticity of Kilt's story. Apparently Tom King is in touch with his daughter in San Diego. A delicate question, would be his prior history or involvement with the Earhart story and with any other prior "claims" of extraordinary events. In my mind, if a native told that story to Kilts, who was a Coast Guard man (enlisted or officer?) on Niku in 1946,that he would have been derelict in his duty not to have reported that information to a superior and if so, the US Coast Guard would have made an offical report available for review. What was Kilts reputation in the community for "truth".Would it be of value to contact her directly? A question to the Forum and Tighar: Was any information of a skeleton found on Niku on the shoreline by a "young Irishman" Magistrate in the public domain in 1960. The Kilts story also includes size 9 narrow women's shoes, American kind and of course the Irishman immediately thought of Amelia Earhart. Do we know that Gallagher discussed his findings and his suspected Earhart connection with any of the 1937 natives. Were there just 23 all men only natives on Niku in 1938,I thought there were about 80 plus with women joining the colonist. So I guess were back to proving "extraordinary" reports with extraordinary proof of Kilts' report to the newspaper. It almost looks like Kilts had the first TIGHAR TRACK BULLETIN where he got his information. But if none of this information was available in 1960, it would be compelling evidence that Kilts was reporting a true story, no matter what he did or did not do with the information. LTM, Ron Bright ************************************************************************* From Ric The only extraordinary think about Kilts' story, as far as we can tell, is that it appears in a newspaper article thirty years BEFORE the events he describes were ever discussed publicly. The entire bones incident was never disclosed outside a very tight circle of British officials. Harry Maude, Eric Bevington, and Foua Tofiga - all of whom were right there in the WPHC at the time - knew nothing about it. Kilts could be the most notorious liar in the Coast Guard but there is no question that he was on Niku when he says he was and he had basically accurate information that he could not have gotten except from the people he says he got it from. Kilts was a 54 year-old Chief Carpenter's Mate when he was on Gardner in 1946 . He was 45 in 1937. It's hardly surprising that he knew about Earhart, but your perceptions of what he might consider his duty to report to his superiors may differ from his. After all, what did he have? A story told by a native. No documents, no evidence. Just a story. When he did tell it in 1960, it was investigated and roundly debunked by Fred Goerner. Floyd probably went to his grave thinking that nobody believed him. Poor guy. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:50:16 EDT From: Jerry Ann Jurenka Subject: New magazine article on AE Just got word from Ann Koenig, a good friend in Dallas, that there is a new article out about Amelia's disappearance and some "new evidence". That's all the description I got so wanted everyone to know in case they may have access or can find an issue. The issue is Vol. 36, No. 6 and should be on the stands until 7-31-00 but I have been unable to find a bookstore yet that carries it. Kudos to Ron Dawson for the Buttonwood report and the new discussion it has spurred. LTM, Jerry Anne Jurenka #0772E *************************************************************************** From Ric Vol. 36, No. 6 of what? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:52:14 EDT From: Warren lambing Subject: Re: Earhart Biography Your right I was surprised that it gave some credible possibilities. I certainly don't question Bob Brandenburg's expertise, I have a lot of respect for his experience. And I have always felt that (right or wrong) the reason there may only have been a carrier signal readable, is most likely because of the signal strength. I also am not advocating that the transmission heard in the U.S. were credible, but I stop short of calling them bogus. What I have always found interesting about HF, is that it can prove to be unpredictable (at least sometimes). I suspect as time goes on some of principles use in understanding HF, could change in years to come (there already has been a theory challenging the principle that the radio signals bounce off the Ionosphere, but instead may follow the circumference of the Earth and increase in signal strength after it crosses the equator). The bottom line is I question how predictable HF is as a media. That said I watch long range weather forecasts (and your right it is apples to oranges), I also find the concept of the computer software to analyze the antenna and radio AE had and the conditions it would be broadcasting in, fascinating!!! ( I am just not sold on it's ability to accurately read and recreate the conditions that the transmissions took place). Have a good weekend. Warren ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:12:56 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Baloney Detection Kit I found this available as a file I could paste in. It might be of interest. CARL SAGAN'S BALONEY DETECTION KIT Based on the book "The Demon Haunted World" The following are suggested as tools for testing arguments and detecting fallacious or fraudulent arguments: Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts. Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view. Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities"). Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy. Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours. Quantify, wherever possible. If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work. "Occam's razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler. (Note from Ric: This is often misunderstood. You choose the simpler one, not because it is more likely to be correct, but because it's easier to test and, possibly, eliminate.) Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, is it testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result? Additional issues are: Conduct control experiments - especially "double blind" experiments where the person taking measurements is not aware of the test and control subjects. Check for confounding factors - separate the variables. Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric: *Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument. *Argument from "authority". *Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an "unfavourable" decision). *Appeal to ignorance (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). *Special pleading (typically referring to god's will). *Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased). *Observational selection (counting the hits and forgetting the misses). *Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes). *Misunderstanding the nature of statistics (President Eisenhower expressing astonishment and alarm on discovering that fully half of all Americans have below average intelligence!) *Inconsistency (e.g. military expenditures based on worst case scenarios but scientific projections on environmental dangers thriftily ignored because they are not "proved"). *Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down. *Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - "it happened after so it was caused by" - confusion of cause and effect. *Meaningless question ("what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?). *Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities(making the "other side" look worse than it really is). *Short-term v. long-term - a subset of excluded middle ("why pursue fundamental science when we have so huge a budget deficit?"). *Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects (give an inch and they will take a mile). *Confusion of correlation and causation. *Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack. *Suppressed evidence or half-truths. *Weasel words - for example, use of euphemisms for war such as "police action" to get around limitations on Presidential powers. "An important art of politicians is to find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the public" Vern Klein 2124 *************************************************************************** From Ric Wonderful stuff Vern. I'd love to use it on our website (properly credited of course). Can you let me know where you found it? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:20:54 EDT From: Skeet Gifford Subject: Lockheed 10-A rides Taking the L10-A ride and celestial navigation introduction to the next level, you could offer an L10 Type Rating. After all, you can get a Citation rating on a weekend . Whatever it is, sign me up! Skeet Gifford ************************************************************************** From Ric Wouldn't THAT be a hoot? I have no idea whether the owners would be at all amenable but, as a former aviation insurance underwriter, I'd say that anyone expecting to get Type-rated in the Model 10 in a fairly short time should have, as a minimum: 1,000 hours total time 200 hours multi-engine 200 hours tailwheel time 10 hours multi-engine tailwheel (for example, Twin Beech) time. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:16:27 EDT From: Michael Holt Subject: Re: Lockheed 10A rides > From Ric > > Hmmm....so we have (at least) two airplanes parked on the ramp. Step right > this way folks and you can experience what it was like to fly in a Lockheed > Electra. Step over here to this very similar twin-engined, twin-tailed > aircraft of the same vintage and you can try your hand at shooting the sun > just like Fred Noonan. This has possibilities. Yeah, but some insensitive soul will, inevitably, point, comment that Noonan missed his mark. This did trigger a question: was there some characteristic of AE's Electra that might have made Noonan's task a bit more difficult that it might have been otherwise? (I've never seen the airplane, as it was configured internally for that flight, in a cutaway drawing.) Michael Holt ************************************************************************** From Ric Making good celestial obversations from an airplane in flight was a bit of a problem. On the Pan Am "Clippers" it was solved by a sliding hatch in the "roof." On NR16020 it was initially solved by installing a big flat glass window on the starboard side of the cabin back in what was, on the airline version, the lavatory. A flat glass window was also installed in the cabin door on the port side. Sometime between when the airplane came out of the repair shop in Burbank on May 19, 1937 and the time it departed Miami on June 1st, the big window on the starboard side was skinned over with aluminum. We don't know why, but in a telephone conversation I had with Earhart's mechanic Ruckins "Bo" McKneely before he died, he said (I'm paraphrasing), "That Noonan fella didn't hold with all the fancy navigation arrangements and said he could just take his sightings through the windshield up front." During WWII aircraft used a plexiglas bubble called an "astrodome" installed in the upper fuselage for celestial observations, but I suspect that in 1937 the technology did not yet exist to fabricate an optically correct bubble. As for Noonan missing his mark; it was never the plan for Fred to hit Howland by Dr and clestial alone. He and everyone else knew that, unless he was phenominally lucky, assistance from radio navigation would be necessary to find Howland within the time constraints imposed by the flight's fuel reserves. In the end, no help from the radio was forthcoming and Fred was left to do the best he could with what he had. LTM, Ric ************************************************************************* From Doug Brutlag I'd be interested in bringing the celestial nav intro program to the day of Lockheed 10A rides but I can't bring the Beech. I didn't mention this earlier because it pains me to relate this but the SNB-5 crashed 3 weeks ago in a landing accident and was damaged beyond economic repair. It appears that there was some pressure in the brake lines which locked the main wheels up on landing(in our grass strip) where suddenly without warning it went out of control and flipped over. It was a total loss. The good news is that my son, a good friend(who was flying it), and myself walked away with very minor injuries from what should have killed us all. Nothing against Carl Sagan but miracles do happen and are very much alive and well-if you could see what is left of my airplane. Anyway, I still plan on offering celestial navigation training, particularly the "intro" flights I mentioned previously. For those forum members who are curious, it consists of about 3 hours of ground school, training on use of the sextant(I have an A-7 VERY similar to FN's sextant) and then if the 10A owners permit we could go up and shoot one LOP of the sun just like Fred. Everyone who participates will get a copy of my booklet "BETWEEN HEAVEN & EARTH-LET THE STARS GUIDE YOUR WAY" and the plotting sheet of their results of their"shot" of the sun. If I had the Beech the fee would be $75 which included the airplane ride, but since it won't be part of it, the cost would be much less-say $25/head. It might be kind of fun to have all the forum members together in a room for a skull session on the aspects of the Niku diversion-how it may have happened & why. Could be a great media opportunity for TIGHAR as well. What sayeth all ye forum members & Ric? (I took your reservation already Skeet) The Beech is featured in this month's issue of FLYING MAGAZINE (June) page 40 left column if you want to see what once was a beautiful restoration.(sob). Doug B. #2335 ************************************************************************** From Ric I'm really sorry to hear about the loss of your Beech and glad to hear that no one was hurt. Of course, our planning for some kind of cooperative event with the Lockheed is still in the idea stage but we'll certainly plug in your offer to add a celestial navigation component. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:19:57 EDT From: Michael Holt Subject: The Bushnell > From Tom King > > There was a question awhile ago about whether E.H. Bryan might have been > aboard U.S.S. Bushnell during her 1939 expedition through the Phoenix > Islands. I've just re-acquainted myself with a manuscript entitled "Some > Notes on Sydney Island" by Henry W. Bigelow, Jr., from the archives of the > Bernice P. Bishop Museum. On the front page, the Bishop's pioneer > archeologist Kenneth Emory has written: "September 1939, visit of one week, > U.S.S. Bushnell, a U.S. Expedition. Bigelow had a copy of Gordon MacGregor's > on the Phoenix Islands which I had furnished him." I recall the Bushnell as a submarine tender. In my trusty Silverstone, it is reported that the Bushnell was launched in 1942. Obviously, not the right ship. Silverstone has a companion opus: "U.S Warships of World War I," which is in my library. In that, the Bushnell is AS-2, launched in 1915. There's a photo on page 203: she's a handsome, clipper-bowed ship with two high masts, a prominent bridge and a rakish single funnel. Why was a submarine tender on survey trips in 1939? It seems an logical question. Working from Silverstone, I count four submarine tenders in service in 1939 (two were launched in November of 1939). For a submarine fleet in rapid expansion, that seems a small number. Thirteen more were launched between 1940 and 1945. Silverstone reports that the Bushnell became AG-32 in July of 1940, and is listed after that date as USS Sumner, one of six survey vessels of World War 2. Sumner was redisignated AGS-5 in December of 1943. Mike Holt ************************************************************************** From Ric Your description of Bushnell ( masts and funnel) matches the photos I've seen. It seems pretty clear that in 1939 she was functioning as a survey ship, not a submarine tender. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:23:45 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Post-loss signals >From Warren Lambing > >I also am not advocating that the transmission heard in the U.S. were >credible, but I stop short of calling them bogus. What I have always found >interesting about HF, is that it can prove to be unpredictable (at least >sometimes). --You mean like totally unpredictable, or variable within bounds? > I suspect as time goes on some of principles use in understanding HF, > could change in years to come (there already has been a theory challenging > the principle that the radio signals bounce off the Ionosphere, but instead > may follow the circumference > of the Earth and increase in signal strength after it crosses the equator). --Change in understanding okay; would that effect a change in observations also? Think about an analogy in other fields of science. >watch long range weather forecasts (and your right it is apples to >oranges), ( I am just not sold on it's ability to accurately read and >recreate the conditions that the transmissions took place). For the liklihood of daytime transmissions from a 50 watt transmitter reaching the US coast on those frequencies, you could stake your life on "NO WAY". Nighttime, low horizontal antenna, maybe. I have used makeshift low, way less than optimum antennas on 7 MHz with about 70 watts out to about 1200 miles, but around that milage seemed to be about the limit. (That was using 1943 Navy equipment). (I'm not an old timer, however, just a medium-timer). Over salt water, you could expect better results, and some have stated, substantially better results. So i, personally, would not want to discount that possibility out of hand. Unlikely, but not totally discountable. BTW, in one of the clippings posted in that "EA Museum" referenced here recently, there was stated that were heard the call letters of AE's plane. I wonder how did EA or FN learn morse that quickly? Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:26:52 EDT From: Bob Brandenburg Subject: Computer modeling > From Ric > > Comparing Bob Brandenburg's modeling of the radio and antenna system to a > long range weather forecast is comparing apples and oranges, but I share your > skepticism that any such theoretical work can provide absolute answers - and > I'm sure that Bob would agree. However, contrary to your impression, bob's > analysis does not debunk all of the alleged post-loss messages. In fact, the > transmissions heard by Nauru on 6210 kcs on the evening of July 2nd are very > credible and, in my personal opinion, were probably genuine. Some other > signals heard later by US Navy Radio in Samoa could also have been the real > thing, but the case for them is not as strong. The stuff heard in Hawaii, > Midway, Wake and in the U.S. is almost certainly bogus. I agree with with Ric's skepticism about the ability of computer models to provide absolute answers. After more than twenty years experience using and designing computer models, I consider myself to be one of the world's leading skeptics about such tools - - which is not to say that I don't think they are valuable tools. But they are just that - - tools. No computer model can precisely replicate nature, but a good model can give a useful approximation. The key to using any model is to understand the application(s) for which it was designed, and how well the assumptions underlying the algorithms which drive the model approximate the processes being studied. Properly used, a computer model can provide useful approximations within some known confidence limits. As it happens, a lot of my modeling experience was acquired while studying ways to intercept and locate the sources of HF transmissions by potential wartime naval adversaries, and to use HF transmissions to disrupt and confuse enemy communications, command and control (C3) systems. The idiosyncratic behavior of HF propagation is well known to all who use that medium. But it is interesting to note that the fluctuations in HF propagation behavior tend to operate within well-known statistical bounds. The HF propagation model which I use is called ICEPAC, an updated version of a time-tested, widely used model called IONCAP - - which is widely recognized as a world standard in the field. The model has many strengths, not least of which is an extensive empirical data base of observed and measured propagation behavior over many thousands of paths at one-hour resolution, for more than 60 years. Of particular interest to the Earhart project is the fact that the model takes into account locale-specific factors such as the inherently higher incidence of storm-generated electromagnetic noise near the equator. But despite the technical power of the model, its outputs can be no better than its inputs. And there's a lot that we just don't know about technical specifics at either end of the propagation paths involved in alleged Earhart signal intercepts. But we can make conservative assumptions and test the likelihood that a given signal could have originated from NR16020. And the results we get are in terms of statistical distributions and probabilities. So there is no simplistic "Yes" or "No" result. But for the few signals that seem most likely to be genuine based on the available evidence, the confidence level is quite high. The details are in the 8th edition of the project book, so I won't go into them here. Sorry if this post is too long and boring boring. When I started it, I planned to limit it to a few lines, but the thing took on a life of its own. LTM, who hates uncertainty but thinks it's probably impossible to avoid. Bob Brandenburg #2286 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:29:41 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Post landing signals I was looking at a 1937 copy or Shortwave Craft magazine last nite, at the listings of broadcast stations, and i noted that the frequencies around 6210, and in fact 6210 itself, were occupied by a number of broadcast stations in South America. I was wondering if this would have made "interesting" lissening for any signal from AE. Certainly a weak carrier, if it was fading in and out, and so weak no audio could be pulled out, could cause some distraction and maybe wasted effort. Also, my semi-uninformed suspicion is that when AE's rdf could not null on the HF channel from the Itasca, she was well more than 100 miles, contrary to what she may have thought - so the signal arrived via skywave reflection, and not direct wave - i believe the skywave scattering is what disturbs and makes unusable HF-DF with a simple directional loop antenna. You can experience how frustrating attempting this is. Use a portable transistor radio with shortwave coverage up to around 6.5 MHz at least. One of the simpler sets from the 1960s - 1980s is ideal. They actually have a ferrite bar antenna on shortwave, besides on broadcast ("AM band"). But to be able to use this antenna only, you have to disable the whip, by folding it in or removing it. The ferrite bar thing is basically a loop antenna, but ferrite core and high amplification makes use of small diameter loop practical. (Some will point out that "automatic gain control" in the radio eliminates df-ing, but this isn't true for low level signals, as you can experience on the AM band.) If you tune in a weak station on the AM band, and rotate the radio, you can probably find a position of it so that the station disappears or is much weaker. With the station nulled, a line from you to the front of the radio is the line pointing directly to, or from the station. Now try this on the shortwave broadcast band around 6 MHz. You probably won't have any local type stations, or be able to hear anything in daytime, so your listening will be nitetime and totally skywave. You may find an arc where the station volume goes down, and you think you've found the null, but when you swing back around, you may found the null has disappeared. Or you can't get a null in the first place. You might also try this around 3880 around 2100, and on weekends, when the hams running classic radio gear are on the air. They tend to do monologues longer than usual 2-way radio, so these signals are ideal for df practice, plus the liklihood is greater that their signals are not really long distances from you. You wouldn't want your success in this attempt to have any weight in whether you survive or not. Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:30:21 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Floyd Kilts story/Authenticity of I see Ron's point, but I don't know what we could gain by trying to investigate Kilts' reliability, and it would be a pretty daunting task. Couldn't very well just ask his daughter. LTM (who says not to ask about grandpa's veracity if you know what's good for you) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:38:13 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Floyd Kilts story/Authenticity of So Kilts was a nine iron away from perhaps an investigative lead that may have resolved theEarhart mystery-the skeleton and woman's shoe discovery 30 years before that informtion surfaced. Maybe in 1960, the bones could have been found through due diligence somewhere in the Pacific or UK. What a shame. Hope Tighar doesn't meet the same fate. But partly Kilt's fault-in hindsight,he should have aggressively pursued that tale as it did relate to Earhart,but,as you say, he may have blown it off as "just another crazy folk legend". To bad. LTM, Ron Bright *************************************************************************** From Ric I'd say it's pretty hard to fault ol' Floyd. Look how hard it is for us to get people to pay attention to the clues we have - and we have hard evidence. All he had were tales of the South Pacific. Still, he obviously succeeded in getting some media attention for the information he had. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:44:45 EDT From: Ellie Ellis Subject: ABCNEWS.com : French Writer's Plane Discovered I don't know if I have the right address or not and this is some off topic but interesting as a parallel to Earhart. Ellie Ellis http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/saintexupery000527.html ************************************************************************** From Ric The address is good. What I find interesting is the apparent acceptance of the claim that St Exupery's plane has been found (headline "French Writer's Plane Found") when, in fact, no identification of the debris has been made. The article ends with: "This is not the first time the remains of an aircraft alleged to have belonged to Saint-Exupery have been discovered off the wreck-littered coasts of France. "However, Castellano, an enthusiast for wartime aviation, said he was convinced by "historical and mathematical deduction," that Vanrell's discovery was authentic after examining pictures of the wreckage lying 100 meters under the sea. "Submarine archaeology experts have yet to verify the remains of the plane that crashed on a summer afternoon 56 years ago." Ahh, the media. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:58:23 EDT From: Jerry Anne Jurenka Subject: Re: new magazine article >The issue is Vol. 36, No. 6 and >should be on the stands until 7-31-00 but I have been unable to find a >bookstore yet that carries it.<< > >From Ric > >Vol. 36, No. 6 of what? Duh! Well, so much for ESP. The magazine is Air Classic, Vol. 36 No. 6. If someone has it, please let me know if it is worth pursuing. LTM, Jerry Anne Jurenka #0772E ************************************************************************** From Ric Oh, okay. This is the latest offering by Rollin Reineck which we reviewed on the forum a couple of weeks ago. Save your money. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:03:16 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Floyd Kilts story/Authenticity of For Tom, Then there's that old policeman's line from Pasternak-- "Get hold of a man's brother and you're half way home"... wonder if that would apply to grand-daughters, too? Actually, I'm not sure what good it would do, vetting Kilts. His information was second-hand to begin with and we already know that similar stories were circulating on the island. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:59:16 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Floyd Kilts story/Authenticity of I'm curious if any other Coast Guardman beside Kilts, for instance Coasties on supply missions, or those on the Loran Station from 1941-46, every reported hearing the skeleton/Earhart story from Niku natives. Forum member Willam Garman-Webster said that that story was circulating around the Island circa these times. I can't recall, but did any of the Loran Coasties ever find and record any artifacts or other evidence of the Earhart presence between 1941-46; was there a Loran logbook separately maintained?Apparently not. Again it seems if this was a popular folk legend coupled with the known possibility AE landed at NIKU the U.S. military guys would have initiated a bit of a search. Ltm, Ron Bright *************************************************************************** From Ric Curious though it may be, none of the veterans of Unit 92 that we've talked to have any recollection of hearing any story about bones or Earhart while on Niku. In late 1944 or early 1945, PBY pilot John Mims asked about the airplane parts he saw being used by the locals and was told about the airplane that was there when the people first came to the island, but there was no connection to Earhart mentioned and nothing about any bones. Kilts heard about bones, but apparently was told nothing about an airplane, in the spring of 1946. Remember that Kilts was not part of the Loran unit stationed on the island but came along after it was de-activated to store it away. Some of the Coasties did come upon the "Seven" site in about September of 1944 but had no idea what it was. When they asked the locals about it nobody seemed to know anything. So the telling of the bones or the airplane story to outsiders was apparently very selective and no outsider (that we know of), including Gallagher, was told both stories. Bauro Tikana, Gallagher's clerk and interpreter, knew a vague version of the bones story but not the airplane story. The same is true of second-generation former-residents in the Solomon Islands. And yet both Emily in Fiji and Tapania in Funafuti knew both stories and connected them as part of the same story. Interesting, to say the least. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:00:17 EDT From: Phil Tanner Subject: Re: Computer modeling Bob Brandenburg writes: >Sorry if this post is too long and boring boring. When I started it, I planned >to limit it to a few lines, but the thing took on a life of its own. Not at all. As a scientific novice, I find such posts from Bob and others one of the very best things about the Forum. And that's high praise, believe me. LTM (who dropped physics at age 16 and couldn't wait to do so) Phil Tanner, 2276 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:12:16 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: ABCNEWS.com : French Writer's Plane Discovered I thought the Saint Exupery riddle had been solved some time ago. It was an accepted fact that the famous French pilot-author was shot down in 1944 while on a recconnaisance flight over the Mediterranean in a Lockheed P-38 Lightning. I believe even the name of the German pilot who scored the kill is know. I remember it was found by comparing dates and Luftwaffe archives covering action in the area. The P-38 wreck was found fairly recently (a couple of years ago) by fishermen who found parts of an airplane wreck in their nets. Next a guy dived to it, checked it and recovered a wristwatch which was then identified by the family. I take it this would be sufficient proof ? As far as I remember, the location being known, the family has requested to leave the wreck alone and let the author rest in peace. ************************************************************************** From Ric It was a bracelet, not a wristwatch, and it was engraved. Smells like a smoking gun to me. ************************************************************************** From Ross Devitt The moral to this? Don't fly over the ocean in a Lockheed..... ************************************************************************ From Ric Earhart Kingsford-Smith St. Exupery Then again: Wiley Post and Harold Gatty flew a Lockheed around the world So did Howard Hughes Charles and Anne Lindbergh crossed both the Atlantic and the Pacific in a Lockheed Merrill and Lambie flew a Lockheed 10 almost identical to Earhart's across the Atlantic and back. The P-38s that flew the Yamamoto assassination mission made an incredibly long and precise over-water flight. I'd say, on balance, Lockheed comes out on the plus side ( I know, I know. You were only joking.) LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:14:05 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: Post-loss signals Hue Miller wrote: > --You mean like totally unpredictable, or variable within bounds? Within bounds, but are all variables known? >> I suspect as time goes on some of principles use in understanding HF, >> could change in years to come (there already has been a theory challenging >> the principle that the radio signals bounce off the Ionosphere, but instead >> may follow the circumference of the Earth and increase in signal strength >> after it crosses the equator). > > --Change in understanding okay; would that effect a change in observations > also? Think about an analogy in other fields of science. The answer to that is yes, if it changes the variables, and as to other fields of science, the medical field may sometimes be an example. However I would not bet on the transmission heard in U.S being credible, the odds our against it, but they are not a sure thing against it either. > BTW, in one of the clippings posted in that "EA Museum" referenced > here recently, there was stated that were heard the call letters of > AE's plane. I wonder how did EA or FN learn morse that quickly? The upside to looking at newspaper clippings is that you are looking at information close to the event. The downside to any news report is that you are confined to what they report, in another words you have to rely on the accuracy of the report (not something the press is always reliable at). Regards. Warren Lambing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:24:49 EDT From: Dave Porter Subject: AE & Murphy's Law I think we kicked Murphy's Law around a bit on the forum awhile back, and I was thinking recently that if the hypothesis as it now stands is eventually proved, that the AE disappearance could well be a case study of Murphy's Law. (Whatever can go wrong will) Consider the following: (all speculation at this point) 1. DF antenna lost on Lae takeoff prevents AE/FN from finding Howland. 2. Itasca searches northwest instead of following AE's reported LOP to closest alternate landing site. (Gardner, Baker, Hull) 3. NR16020 obscured or destroyed by surf during Lambrecht flyover of Gardner. 4. AE/FN unable to signal aircraft during Lambrecht flyover. 5. No land searches of Phoenix islands by Colorado. 6. Bevington party doesn't recognize airplane debris in their own photo. 7. Bevington party doesn't investigate "signs of recent habitation." 8. Earhart unaware of Bevington party on Gardner. 9. Earhart dies just prior to PISS colonists arrival. 10. Gallagher dies before he has a chance to press the issue of the bones discovery. 11. Bones and Kanawa wood box, and other artifacts found by Gallagher lost during WW II. 12. Mim's aircraft cable fishing line leader not investigated. 13. Source of aluminum inlays on native items from area outside of WW II areas of operation not investigated. 14. Kilts dies before he can do more research on bones story. 15. PISS colony disbanded and colonists relocated, those with first hand knowledge of Gardner aircraft wreck grow old, and die before anyone else (enter TIGHAR) gets ahold of, and starts investigating Gardner/Niku link to AE disappearance. If just one, any one of the above items had gone differently, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion today. Maybe instead of Murphy's Law, it should be called Earhart's Law. LTM, the most she had go wrong was me Dave Porter, 2288 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:32:14 EDT From: Ellie Ellis Subject: Re: ABCNEWS.com : French Writer's Plane Discovered I thought the description of what the plane looks like now might be something to take into consideration if anything like that turns up around the area where Amelia's plane might have crashed in he ocean. Ellie Ellis ************************************************************************* From Ric Well, we have lots and lots of examples of what airplanes look like that crash into the ocean and they range from almost no damage in a well-executed ditching to crumpled tin-foil in an outright crash. Assuming for the moment that the Electra did go down at sea and remained essentially intact, the odds of finding it with existing technology are about as close to zip as it's possible to get. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:33:51 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Lockheed Electra flights I couldn't wait flying a Lockheed 10 so I contacted Linda Hutson and this is the reply I got : > Herman, > > Our flights in Toronto are sold out for June 22-25, 2000 and I am taking > requests for 2001 which will be approx. the same dates, weekend after > Father's Day. Tickets are $100. > > There are other flights in other cities in Canada where Air Canada has > Dreams Take Flight chapters but you would have to inquire directly. This > is the webb site for contacts. " www.dreamstakeflight.ca/ > > I'll get back to you when we know the exact dates for 2001. > > Linda Hutson > 416 447-5246 > ******* I found her studying the Air Canada website (www.aircanada.ca). Air Canada's "Dreams Take Flight" program offers Electra flights from Toronto but also from a number of other Canadian cities (see their website). However, the exact dates are not known yet but, as Linda Hutson suggests, you can contact these locations directly. Anyway, that excludes an Electra flight for me this year. Anyone wanting to queue for a flight from Toronto can contact Linda Hutson but remember there are no seats available before 2001! I'll have to change holiday plans this year... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:37:04 EDT From: Michael Lowery Subject: Re: The Bushnell A brief history of the Bushnell/Sumner is available at http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/auxil/as2.htm The source is the Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, the standard official work on the subject. Michael Lowrey ************************************************************************** From Ric Yup. That history makes it clear that in 1939 Bushnell was working for the Hydrographic Office. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:43:46 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: windows in NR16020 > On NR16020 it was initially solved by installing a big flat glass > window on the starboard side of the cabin back in what was, on the airline > version, the lavatory. A flat glass window was also installed in the cabin > door on the port side. Sometime between when the airplane came out of the > repair shop in Burbank on May 19, 1937 and the time it departed Miami on June > 1st, the big window on the starboard side was skinned over with aluminum. Does that mean there were originally FOUR windows in the rear of the Electra? One in the Port Fuselage, one in the Starboard Fuselage, directly opposite the Port one, and one in the Port Door... Th' WOMBAT ************************************************************************* From Ric That is correct, depending upon what you mean by "originally." As delivered in July 1936, the airplane had only two windows in the cabin. These were the aftmost standard airline windows and were directly opposite each other. Then in January of 1937 a window was installed in the cabin door on the port side and a larger-than-standard window was installed on the staboard side. this last window is the one that was later skinned over in Miami. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:48:57 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Post landing signals > Also, my semi-uninformed suspicion is that > when AE's rdf could not null on the HF > channel from the Itasca, she was well > more than 100 miles, contrary to what she > may have thought - so the signal arrived via > skywave reflection, and not direct wave - > i believe the skywave scattering is what > disturbs and makes unusable HF-DF with > a simple directional loop antenna. I seem to recall the Chater Report confirming AE's inability to get a null reading when she was testing the equipment at Lae - so it would also appear possible she was VERY close to Itasca. Th' WOMBAT ************************************************************************* From Ric It is usually assumed that Earhart's failure to get a null on the Itasca's signal was due to the signal being transmitted (at her request) on a frequency far higher (7500 kcs) than her DF could respond to - but you make an interesting point. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:01:04 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Floyd Kilts story/Authenticity of >Remember that Kilts was not part of the Loran unit stationed >on the island but came along after it was de-activated to store it away. That's a bit confusing, actually, or confused. The newspaper story says he was involved in dismantling the station, but the Unit 92 log reports Kilts and his team arriving awhile before the station was actually closed, and remaining until everyone went home. Powrzanis, the only other member of the team we've found alive, told me that they were deactivated immediately after the Gardner work. And the log says they were there to make repairs, not to dismantle. Since it was so late in the game, the repairs may well have had to do with mothballing the facility, I imagine, but the point is that Kilts' time there does seem to have overlapped at least with that of some regular station personnel. TK *************************************************************************** From Ric I somehow had it in my head that Unit 92 ceased operations in December 1945 but, reviewing the paperwork, it looks like it may have stayed operational until it was designated as on "Caretaker Status and Secured" in May of 1946. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:57:59 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Kilts Ric -- Following are excerpts from the notes I took when Chuck Boyle and I went through the Loran Station log. Most of the log entries are HIGHLY repetitive, so what I did was note those days when something happened, and provide an example of a typical day's entry. Note the relationship between the arrival of Kilts and the closedown of the station. TK 8 Feb. 46 Basswood arrives 1545, departs 1830, delivers new weapons carrier, supplies, new personnel, stores, etc. 15 Feb PBY from Canton, movies, etc. Arrives 0615, departs 0645 26 Feb. Basswood arrives "Following men reported for temporary duty for replacing vertical radiator: Kilts, Lloyd C, (3056-052), CCM, USCGR in charge, Harris, "I""W" (697-567), MOMM 3/C USCGR, Powrzanas, John F. (695-565), CM 3/c USCGR, Neal, John J (624-110), MOMM 3/c USCGR, Downing, John F (593-488) F2/c USCGR, Menard, Joseph W (558-816) S1/c USCGR, Portheo, Lucien L. (798-157) S1/c USCGR. ----------------------------- March 46 2 March: Peterson relieves Finn 21 March: Captain's Mast; Punishment to Barnes 677-254 for 2 hours AWOL, Berman 670-837 for misapp. Govt' prop and awol, Carr and Dionne for misapp. Govt. prop. Also received 110 drums diesel oil from Basswood, 3 bags mail. Pay 22 March: Finn departs, presum. On Basswood. 23 March: 1330-1600 Liberty to village. Sat. 30 March 1330-1630 Liberty to village. --------- April 46 -- 24 enlisted on duty 6 April Liberty to village usual times 11 April transfers, must be ship in. 13 April liberty to village 14 April transfer Forrest Harmon for medical aid -- plane? 20 April CO Mast 3 men sleeping on watch 22 April secured transmitting, commenced caretaker status 27 April Basswood in, launched boat for return Canton, liberty to village 1330-1530 28 April Basswood sails. ---------------------- Typical: -730 Chow down, 0800 colors, 0815 turn to, 1130 Chow down, 1430 turn to, 1730 chow down, 1900 colors, 2200 lights out. These under "record of miscellaneous events of the day" Weather, clouds, wind, barometer, etc. also covered. Complement 1 off, 16 enl. Sat. 5 May 1330 Liberty to village, back 1630 5/10: Everyone departs, placed in caretaker status. ************************************************************************** From Ric Pretty interesting. I note that Kilts arrives aboard Basswood for temporary duty on February 26 and is not listed as departing. I wonder if he stayed there right up until the shut-down in May or left and came back? In the San Diego Union article he says he heard the bone story in March of 1946. I'm just wondering how much time he spent on the island. One name above popped out at me. "Govt' prop and awol, Carr and Dionne for misapp. Govt. prop." I corresponded a bit with Joe Dionne back in 1993 and he sent some photos. I didn't pursue his recollections very much because at that time we were focused on events early in the unit's stay on Gardner when Dick Evans and Herb Moffitt saw the "water collection device" which we now know to be the water tank at the "Seven" site. Joe Dionne, of course, was there at the end and may remember Floyd Kilts. I just tried his phone number and got his answering machine, so he's apparently still kicking. I'll try him again later. I wonder what government property he and Carr misappropriated when they went awol. What do you wanna bet they stole the new weapons carrier? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:21:16 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Earhart and HF/DF >From Ric > >It is usually assumed that Earhart's failure to get a null on the Itasca's >signal was due to the signal being transmitted (at her request) on a >frequency far higher (7500 kcs) than her DF could respond to - but you make >an interesting point. Cam Warren has recently enjoyed some success in learning more about the RDF equipment. This equipment tuned up thru 8000 kc/s and was part of intense Navy experimenting in these years to determine how HF-DF on aircraft could be made workable. Unfortunately, it could not be made reliably, simply, repeatably effective, and the experiment was eventually canned, somewhere in the same pre-war time span. Unfortunately, AE seems to have taken part in that experiment, by becoming a user of this equipment and it's troublesome feature, even if she didn't quite realize it. Cam & I have read a Navy document dated 1936 on the RDF unit and the problems associated with using it. It's pretty interesting reading, and explains the theoretical problems without math, but, it is many paragraphs and pages long, and probably would put to sleep anyone without a burning interest in the problem. I am positive AE would not have wanted to wade thru this text, maybe she would have even tuned out a lecture on the same topic - IF it were offered. As for FN, who knows if he was ever made aware of the problem? Hue Miller ************************************************************************** From Ric Cam Warren has provided me with a description of his position on this subject and expressed his willingness for it to be passed along, provided it is properly credited. I will post Cam's paper "Hypothesis - Earhart's Secret Mission" as a separate posting for the forum's consideration. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:25:17 EDT From: Ric Subject: Cam Warren's HYPOTHESIS As promised, here is Cameron Warren's paper. I will give others a chance to respond before I make any comment. ************************************** HYPOTHESIS - EARHART'S SECRET MISSION by Cam Warren Contrary to widely held beliefs, Earhart's ELECTRA was fitted with a Bendix High Frequency Direction Finder system intended to locate Howland Island. Until recently, there was little or no information to support this statement. >That has now changed. Government documented facts: The US Coast Guard, originally the Revenue Service, a part of the Treasury Department, was using HF/DF in it's pursuit of "rum runners" in the early 1930s. Improved equipment was a high priority. With the Japanese becoming increasingly belligerent on the West Coast of the United States, HF/DF was enlisted to monitor their activities. In Germany and England similar equipment was on the market. With war in the Pacific increasingly likely, our Navy began fitting radio direction finding gear in its PBY patrol aircraft. It was built by Radio Research Labs (acquired by Bendix in early 1937). The earliest Bendix gear was designated "RDF-1". In mid-1937, an advanced model, the RDF-2, was being delivered and installed on a "Rush" basis. (Note that radar was still on the drawing board). Top secret Naval Intelligence reports revealed the Japanese seaplane tenders (specifically the KAMOI) were using HF/DF as a "homing device" for their aircraft. Frequencies being used were in the 40-meter (wavelength) band. Related information: According to contemporary news stories, one of the justifications for the Purdue University financing of Earhart's "Flying Laboratory" was that it would be utilized to develop aircraft direction finders for commercial use. Vincent Bendix was one of the financial backers of the project. Flushed with the success of his automotive products, Bendix was seeking other fields to conquer, and his personal interest in aviation (the Bendix Air Races) led him to avionics. He formed Bendix Radio in January 1937, and simultaneously acquired Radio Products Co. (Dayton, Ohio) and Radio Research Labs of Washington, D.C. Both companies were building DF equipment, the first for the US Army, the second for the US Navy. Brilliant engineer Frederick Hooven was the founder (?) of the first firm. One of his products (actually a LF automatic DF, later called the "radio compass") was first installed on the Electra, but was replaced by the more sensitive and selective Navy gear, which was capable of HF use and better suited to long range operation in the Pacific. A photograph of the Loop Coupler for the RDF-1(? or prototype) show a five-band frequency selector switch, the RDF-2 Coupler had a six-position switch. This establishes that both systems provided coverage above 4,000 kilocycles; certainly to 7,500 kc, the frequency Earhart requested be broadcast from the ITASCA. (7500 was just above the amateur 40 meter band, where the hams had been getting remarkable long distance communication results.) Technician Joseph Gurr has testified he installed a "multi-band" receiver in the Electra prior to the aborted first leg of the round-the-world flight (Oakland to Hawaii). It was delivered in a crate marked "US Navy". A publicity photograph shot in late February (1937) at Burbank shows Bendix engineer Cyril Remmlein and Amelia displaying the Bendix Coupler and Loop. Remmlein later flew to Oakland with Amelia to check out the installation. In her posthumously published book "Last Flight" Earhart refers to her Western Electric receiver as being installed "under the co-pilot's seat" and also refers to her "Bendix Direction Finder". Undocumented modifications to the radio antenna(s) and DF gear were made in Miami by "moon-lighting" Pan Am technicians. Pan-Am's offer to track the plane over the Pacific was turned down. A portable HF/DF system (tuned to 3105 kc) was installed on Howland Island. Reliable testimony from two different sources establishes that this came from the Naval Intelligence listening station at Heiea, Hawaii. The Navy wanted to send one of their own operators to run it; a plan vetoed by Comdr. Thompson of the ITASCA, who borrowed a radioman (Cipriani) from another CG ship. He was unfamiliar with the gear and never obtained a useful "fix" on the Electra. The Bendix RDF system was classified (originally "Secret") and little (if any) information was released to the press. Former Pan-Am employee and Earhart researcher Paul Rafford tells of a new loop being installed in Miami. It's possible this was part of the latest RDF "upgrade". Earhart's communications receiver (the Western Electric) was inoperable in the vicinity of Howland. Reasonable Conclusions: Putnam negotiated a "deal" with Vincent Bendix; a convincing demonstration of the Bendix HF/DF (if the R-T-W flight was the success he hoped for) in exchange for the use of the equipment and (probably) a substantial cash donation. The Earhart participation was "hush-hush" and not to be mentioned in insecure communications. This quite likely led to patently false information supplied to the ITASCA and elsewhere, concerning the frequency coverage of the Bendix equipment. The original Western Electric communications system WAS retained in the Electra for that specific purpose. The Bendix receiver (RA-1?), which was part of the RDF installation COULD have been utilized as a communications receiver, but was not. In order to simplify operation, the RA-1 (and coupler) was probably pre-tuned to 7,500 kc, since that was to be the "homing" frequency. (This explains why the ONLY signal heard by Earhart was that transmitted by the ITASCA on 7,500 kc.) The admitted retuning of Amelia's W.E. receiver (to 6,540 kc) by the Lae radio operator (Harry Balfour) was responsible for her subsequent failure to tune in signals from the ITASCA on 3,105 kc. (Note: the ship had NO radiotelephone transmitting capability on 6,210 kc.) Treasury Secretary Morgenthau's curious remark (in a telephone conversation with Eleanor Roosevelt's secretary) regarding Earhart's "disregard of orders" may well have been in reference to Amelia's perceived breach of security. (She had mentioned "7500" in a telegram over an open commercial radio channel.) Amelia's indifference to thoroughly learning radio and DF operating techniques (or carrying a trained radio operator aboard) was the greatest single contributor to her subsequent loss. And a further factor was her apparent refusal to allow Fred to operate the equipment. (Ego perhaps, or orders from Putnam, who wanted the flight to be an all-Amelia show). CREDITS: The majority of research on this subject was done by Fred Goerner, subsequent to his well-known book, THE SEARCH FOR AMELIA EARHART (1966). Follow-up work performed by Cam Warren, who verified Goerner's contributions and uncovered certain other rare government documents, never before introduced. Q.E.D. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:28:50 EDT From: Frank Westlake Subject: Photos of Bushnell This page has several pictures of the Bushnell but it doesn't otherwise appear to offer any help. Frank Westlake ************************************************************************** From Ric Good photos though. She really looks like a ship out of a Jules Verne novel. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:30:11 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Coasties 1. Ric said: "I wonder what government property he and Carr misappropriated when they went awol." Wherever they went, they didn't go far! 2. Ric said: "Typical: -730 Chow down, 0800 colors, 0815 turn to, 1130 Chow down, 1430 turn to, 1730 chow down, 1900 colors, 2200 lights out." I like that 3-hour lunch "hour" from 1130 to 1430. I always suspected those Coasties had an easy time of it! LTM, who values punctuality Dennis O. McGee #0149