Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:54:25 EDT From: Jim Tierney Subject: Re: A Ukrainian Opinion Interesting letter from our Ukranian correspondent..... It will be interesting to see if he gets any mail responses... I hope we hear from him again...... He must feel strongly about his thoughts because he had go out and find the Public Computer facility and pay probably a high price for the time online The rest of us just fall out of bed and cross the room and flip on the switch without changing out of our skivvies/jammies/whatever........ It is amazing the hold that this mystery has on people from all over the globe... Jim Tierney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:57:57 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: AE as entertainment Ric wrote, >>The Earhart mystery at the turn of the milennium is basically what the >>Earhart World Flight was in 1937 - entertainment. And as you well know, Ric, just "wait" and see how entertaining things get if and when an identifiable artifact from NR16020 ever turns up. LTM (who got her kicks) william #2243 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:16:48 EDT From: Margot Still Subject: E! Ric, you really came off well last night on E!. How can we get a snappy shirt like you were wearing (and looking like a real babe)? LTM (who likes her children looking their best) MStill **************************************************************** From Ric Welllll I've been called a lot of things on this Forum and I have to admit that I prefer "real babe" to some of the others. Let me tell you about the shirts. Back prior to Niku III in 1997 a clothing company called Willis & Geiger Outfitters offered to outfit the expedition with their really high-end, over-engineered (and over-priced) expedition gear. We, of course, accepted their offer with great glee and had some of their very nifty shirts embroidered with the TIGHAR logo. They looked so good that the company decided to market them to their mail order customers and we were featured in their catalog. The shirts sold out practically overnight at $75 each but before Willis & Geiger could restock they went out of business. We should probably find another supplier and maybe produce a whole line of TIGHAR-tested outdoor clothing. Anybody have any connections at Lands End, Patagonia, Eddie Bauer, etc., etc.? LTM Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:23:51 EDT From: Robbie Subject: AE near Lae? Did your researcher did some survey in Papua New Guinea (particularly Lae)? Think about it. Today Lae is completely change and the old airstrip where Amelia took off is no longer there. But there is a mountain some miles away from the airstrip and if you fly over that mountain you'll be able to see some islands out in the sea. So I guessed the plane didn't fly out of Lae it might have take off but with Amelia didn't have enough expirence about Papua New Guinea terrain and mountain she must have climb up and because that mountain the top is always covered with clouds she must have seen those islands and she did the last contact saying that she can see some islands and moment later she crash into the mountain top. I believe the plane is in that particular mountain in Lae.. Hope for more feedback Regards Robbie ***************************************************************** From Ric I'm afraid that's not much of a possibility. Amelia did not say anything about seeing some islands and we know that she was very close to Howland Island (about 2,500 miles from Lae) with only a few hours of fuel left when contact was lost. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:34:13 EDT From: Chuck Boyle Subject: Re: Question for Loran vets I have a copy of a report written by the UCCG shortly after the Phoenix Loran Stations were built which includes Gardner Island. I obtained it from the NW United States Coast Guard Museum located in Seattle, WA several years ago. It is a 26-page report and gives details of the work done at the four Stations. Statements made in the building of the Gardner Island Station are listed below which may help in preparing your report. "Work on the equipment hut and the power hut went on simultaneously, while a pole gang erected the radiator and the six 75-foot poles." (Used for antennas.) "Two storage huts, a galley and a mess hall, the crew's quarters and the officers' quarters and a tower of creosoted piling 20 feet long, for two 3000-gallon wood storage tanks was erected as a water supply system." If I remember correctly, we were served meal on regular dinnerware (not metal trays). To verify Ric's statement from time to time as he mentions the Tighar Team, on the trips to Gardner Island, because of the heat and humidity how difficult and exhausting it is to perform their work. This report tells, "The men (Young Coast Guardsman) could not stand up under the terrific tropical sun. Gardner is only four degrees from the equator. These men, who were picked for their physical stamina, found themselves exhausted after a few hours in the jungle." Thank you Ric and your team for what you go through on these trips so we can know more of what happen to AE and FN. Ric, I was told at the Coast Guard Reunion that a Tighar Track was sent out in the last two months. Is that correct? Lee (Chuck) Boyle 2060 *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Chuck. Yes, we have a copy of that report but I hadn't remembered that it was so detailed. One of the problems with a research project that spans more than a decade is that you don't always remember what information you already have. No issue of TIGHAR Tracks was sent out recently. We have a big double issue in the works right now and hope to have it ready to mail by the end of the month. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:36:03 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Native recollections One specific in response to Don's query about finding more people who might have been involved in the Emily-alleged bones/airplane discovery: We've got a lead on the son of Koata, the magistrate, who according to Emily was in charge when the discovery was made, and who according to Gallagher had the Benedictine bottle. His son was apparently working on Ocean Island in the early 1950s, though not yet married, which suggests he was ten or so when the bones were found. We don't know if he was on the island, or involved in the bones recovery, but there's a reasonable chance. Lonnie Schorer is trying to contact a Norwegian anthropologist who worked with him and may know where he is. Beyond this, we're pretty much shooting in the dark, but one thing we hope to do on Tarawa if we get there in 2000 is to look for more ex-colonists. LTM Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:19:56 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: A Ukrainian Opinion Alexandr is absolutely right. Aviation being what it was in the Thirties, there is no reason to believe today that Amelia Earhart was a worse pilot than anyone else. Today everybody remembers Louis Blériot for having being the first man to cross the English Channel in an airplane, not for the way he crashed it when landing near Dover. History tells us that Alcock and Brown were the first men to cross the Atlantic non stop in an airplane in 1919, but the picture of their Vickers Vimy standing on its nose after their arrival in Ireland reminds us they actually crashed in a bog. Maybe that is how the expression saw light that "any landing you can walk away from is a good landing". AE may have been involved in a number of incidents, never in an accident. As for flipping a Vega on its back, well, with the kind of taildraggers they flew in those days it could happen to anyone. There are even reports of experienced airline pilots flying scheduled services flipping a DC-3 on its back in the Thirties. And those were "experienced" pilots, probably more experienced than AE. The fact of the matter is that accidents will happen. Thankfully they are few these days. But back in the Thirties airplanes did not have the degree of safety and reliability we take for granted today. To beginwith pilots could not rely on all that modern equipment airplanes carry today. Radar did not exist. Neither did GPS. Radio beacons had yet to be invented. With all the wonderful equipment pilots rely on today one wonders how pilots in the Thirties even found their destinations by using only a compass, a stopwatch and a map. And in the case of AE/FN by watching the sun. That's why people like AE and FN should be remembered as daring pioneers. And all the myth spinning about AE being "a poor pilot" or FN being "not the good navigator he was said to be" has to be considered backbiting and slander. Herman **************************************************************** From Ric I think it's interesting to note that in the past 24 hours we've had input from the Ukraine with a supporting opinion from Belgium and a new suggestion from Papua New Guinea. Maybe TIGHAR is the New World Order everyone is worried about. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:50:56 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: NWO Ric said: "Maybe TIGHAR is the New World Order everyone is worried about." And our uniforms will be Willis & Geiger shirts; pith helmets; walking shorts; riding crops; web belt with canteen, machete, compass, whistle, GPS/Comm unit; and a pair of "stout" walking boots with calf-high wool socks. All in shades of tan and olive drab. Are we going to be snappy, or what?! LTM, who's ready to safari right now! Dennis McGee #0149CE **************************************************************** From Ric I can see that this thread is going to get me in trouble (again). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:30:25 EDT From: Van Hunn Subject: AE program Next week there's a two-hour program(rerun) on the History Channel, "Mysteries of Amelia Earhart." Program description is "The aviator's rise to fame, achievements and mysterious disappearance." In the central time zone it's on Friday 8 Oct 7 PM & 11 PM, also Saturday 9 Oct 3 AM. Van ************************************************************************** From Ric It's a rebroadcast of the show they aired last December. Must be Amelia Earhart season again. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:34:24 EDT From: Bob Subject: AE Question As a new member to this forum, I have a great interest in the AE mystery. Just out of curiosity, I understand that there are accounts of Amelia being taken prisoner and executed by the Japanese as a spy. Has anyone ever uncovered any Japanese documents that support or deny this claim? Please excuse me if I am covering old ground. Bob ************************************************************************** From Ric Very old ground, but easy to cover. No documents to support. Lots of documents to deny. The "Captured by the Japanese" myth is a very interesting subject which, unfortunately, we don't have time to get into here. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 08:39:26 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: AE near Lae? Robbie wrote: << Today Lae is completely change and the old airstrip where Amelia took off is no longer there.>> The current Lae airport is in exactly the same position as the original aerodrome/airport, based upon contemporary maps, both then and now. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 08:44:21 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: TV Guide On the History Channel next week: Friday -- 10/08/1999 8:00/5:00 The Mysteries of Amelia Earhart. July 2, 1937--Amelia Earhart vanishes somewhere over the Pacific, and her final whereabouts remain one of the world's great mysteries. This 2-hour special chronicles her rise to fame, details the last flight, and examines views on her disappearance from a variety of experts and authors, which range from crash at sea to alien abduction. (cc) [TV G] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:00:31 EDT From: Dick Pingrey Subject: TIGHAR Shirts and Stuff As a member of the Board of Directors for a new and struggling aviation museum we have been looking at ways to make money for the museum. Our visits to other aviation museums has revealed that early on these institutions kept their heads above water financially through membership drives and sales in their museum store, mainly t-shirts, caps, etc. with the museum logo. I would think that an online store selling TIGHAR items might generate a fair amount of income. You might explore the idea if it hasn't already been looked at. I know where you can get a truck load of nearly new surplus army uniforms. A few alterations and a TIGHAR patch and you are all set to start selling with little cost for the items to be sold. I don't even want a finder's fee. Dick Pingrey 0908 ************************************************************************** From Ric In our experience, the biggest drawbacks to selling wearables are the cost of stocking inventory in a variety of sizes and the time it takes to fill orders. I'd much rather cut a licensing deal with a company that is already in that business (like we had with now-defunct Willis & Geiger). A few years ago an firm called The Eastwood Company produced a line of die-cast metal models of various old airplanes. One of the models they produced was a Lockheed Vega that was paited silver and carried the TIGHAR logo on the fuselage. We got a small piece of the action from each sale. It was a pretty good deal for us. It brought in several thousand dollars with virtually no associated cost other than the time it took to help get the design set up. We also did a special version of the plane for TIGHAR members only where we put the individual's member number on the wing as a registration number. Now those airplanes are real collector's items and are showing up in flea markets and shows at inflated prices. Thanks but we'll pass on the nearly new uniforms. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:09:32 EDT From: Carole R. Subject: Wreck photo update I have looked all over the website for the info on why the wreck photo has seemingly been discredited, but cannot find anything? Where should I look, or has this info not been posted yet? ltm, who never liked coconuts anyway, Carol R. ************************************************************************* From Ric We haven't posted anything specific on the website by way of a Wreck Photo update, but we probably should. The logic is pretty straightforward. You can't have both Emily's account of bare-bones wreckage way out on the reef and the Wreck Photo showing a beat-up but largely intact wreck up in the woods. Emily's story appears to have some photographic corroboration while the Wreck Photo still stands alone as nothing but a photo of unknown origin. I gotta go with Emily. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:12:03 EDT From: Phil Tanner Subject: Landlubbers ahoy I'm not trying to re-open the radio debate, and apologies to navigators out there to whom this is as simple a matter as a description of how to tie a pair of shoes, but I found this brief idiot's guide to radio direction-finding in a report at the site of the Placerdome mining company, originators and finders of the Chater Report. http://www.placerdome.com/shared/dialogue/historical/earhart.html I found it helpful as a technophobe layman landlubber. LTM Phil 2276 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:20:16 EDT From: Christian Subject: Alexandr's Posting and follow-ups Alexandrs and Hermans postings show how good it is to take a walk aruond the block before you sit down and type a letter or mail to the forum. We could have avoided a lot of noise here if many answers were thought about and not "fall out of bed and cross the room and flip on the switch" as Jim described. Re. Papua New Guinea: Robbie suggested, AE had to fly over a mountain after take-off but I seem to remember a quotation which said that the Electra flew very low (ground effect) after take-off until it was out of sight due to the heavy load. My understanding was, to fly in ground-effect you have to be very low over an even surface like the sea but not over hills or even mountains. Please enlighten me. Christian ************************************************************************** From Ric Enlightenment R Us. There was no mountain in the way. Earhart's takeoff from Lae took her out over the Huon Gulf. There was about a ten foot embankment at the end of the runway that dropped steeply down to the shoreline. This has become an enormous cliff in various accounts of the takeoff. (You can see film of the actual takeoff on the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org.) Apparently, after the takeoff the plane settled down to just above the surface of the water in "ground effect" for a time until enough fuel had been burned off to permit a slow climb. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:38:21 EDT From: Don Neumannn Subject: Japanese author >From Bob >As a new member to this forum, I have a great interest in the AE >mystery. Just out of curiosity, I understand that there are accounts of >Amelia being taken prisoner and executed by the Japanese as a spy. Has >anyone ever uncovered any Japanese documents that support or deny this >claim? In her book..."East to the Dawn"..., Susan Butler quoted from an article & book written by Fukiko Aoki..."Was Amelia Earhart Executed"..., which were written & published in Japanese & contained interviews with Japanese personnel that had lived in the Mandates throughout the 1930's. All those interviewed denied any knowledge of or infomation about the AE/FN flight or its alleged landing somewhere in the Japanese mandated islands. The article was written in the April 1983 issue of the Japanese magazine..."Bungie Shunju"... & a subsequent book of the same title was written & published in 1984. Unfortunately, neither the article nor the book were ever published in the English language. I corresponded with the author (now Fkiko Aoki Hamill) earlier this year & she informed me that no English translation of her work has ever been published, although she did state that Susan Butler had arranged to have a "rough" translation of her magazine article for Butler's book; However, the translation was of very poor quality & Butler had her check over the book ("East to the Dawn") Butler had written before it was published, to correct any mistakes in that segment dealing with Aoki's article. I've written to Susan Butler requesting where I could obtain a copy of the article, but to date I've never received any response (I imagine she suspects I'm some conspiracy theorist writing my own book). I tried to question Aoki-Hamill about the sources of her interviews, however she never has directly responded to such inquiry & merely referred me to Susan Butler for any additional info about her writings. She was apparently a Japanese freelance journalist at the time her article & book were published. Don Neumann ************************************************************************** From Ric Yes, Fukiko Aoki was a freelance journalist living in New York when she wrote her book. Much of her research was taken from back issues of TIGHAR Tracks we sent her and from telephone interviews with this office. The whole problem with the Japanese capture thing (and I really don't want to relaunch that old dead thread) is that it is impossible to prove a negative hypothesis so, until somebody comes up with irrefutable proof that something else happened to Amelia, nobody can prove that she wasn't "captured" by the Japanese (or the Serbs, or the Iraqis, or whoever are regarded as the current bad guys). All you can do is demonstrate the absence of any evidence that it happened - and that has been done ad nauseum. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:45:51 EDT From: Jaume Balaguer Subject: Spain!! You have forgotten the AE club of "fans" from Spain !!!!! Greetings from Spain to all members of this fantastic forum, I'm proud to partcipate in it! LTM ************************************************************************* From Ric By all means, let us not forget our Spanish contingent. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:51:15 EDT From: Bill Moffett Subject: Re. Antiques Roadshow Hello again, back with my weekly AR report: I watched/taped 4 of 5 half-hour programs & one 1-hour one. (VCR fouled up Tues.) As before the short ones were from the UK, long one from US, Hartford CT this week. None had a chronometer nor a numbered box. Stay tuned: WHYY has 3 hours of AR sched next Fri & 1 hr Sat. I'll try to watch/tape. If anyone can get South Jersey PBS-TV, Ch. 23, check their sched for AR on Tues. & Sat., Oct. 5 & 9. LTM (who has an attic full of this stuff) Bill Moffet #2156 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:53:39 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: AE & FN abilities Whatever the previous shortcomigs of AE & FN as pilot/navigator, the fact remains they had reached Lae with no reports of any serious mishaps related to either AE's piloting skills or FN's navigating abilities & whatever occurred on the leg of the flight from Lae to Howland, probably happened during the last 600-700 miles of a 2000+ mile journey to reach Howland, an elevated "sandbar" in the middle of the Pacific, almost invisable until you are right on top of the island! Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:57:04 EDT From: Phil Tanner Subject: Tarawa I don't know when exactly TIGHAR hopes to visit Tarawa, but Kiribati is due to host the annual South Pacific Forum summit next year. I believe it's always in or around October - this year's is about to kick off in Palau. I imagine there'll be a whole load of things to keep government officials fully stretched in the lead-up and during the meeting. That said, wouldn't it be great to do something else to catapult the country into the media spotlight during its big year? LTM, Phil 2276 ************************************************************************** From Ric At this time the TIGHAR rersearch trip to Tarawa is scheduled for January. We'll have more on this soon. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:02:08 EDT From: Bob Subject: Re: AE Question Actually, I found a web site that discusses the Japanese Kempeitai Secret military police, and Japanese military personnel who discuss AE and the documents surrounding their involvement . Thanks for the response Ric! Bob ************************************************************************** From Ric Got a URL for that? If there are actually contemporaneous documents that discuss AE's involvment with Japanese military or police authorities they would be extremely important and the first real evidence that any such involvement ever happened. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:22:32 EDT From: Joe Subject: Re: AE program Any chance of someone like Cdr Robert Ballard at Woods Hole, searching the area off the reef like he did for the Titanic? Joe W3HNK ************************************************************************** From Ric As far as I know Ballard is not a Cdr but a Dr (PhD-type). We're not yet sure that the area off the reef is a good place to look but if we decide it is there are plenty of good underwater search contractors we can work with. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:08:15 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Forensic Imaging Update Thank you. Contributions from the Forum and the TIGHAR membership have now made it possible for us to pay the $2,300 retainer to Photek which will get the forensic imaging work started on the historical photos of the reef and the wreckage. We're going to owe another $5,000 or so before it's over so we still need your support. Jeff Glickman at Photoek is getting right to work on the images we have and we've begun the process of getting our hands on good copies of the images we don't have. A request has been sent to the Rhodes Library at Oxford University in England asking that we be permitted to borrow the original print of Eric Bevington's 1937 photo of the reef (see The Carpenter's Daughter at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/bulletin.html) Likewise, the New Zealand Archive is now processing a request of copy-negatives of five photos. Forum subscriber Caroline Marx in Alabama is working with the USAF Historical Center at Maxwell AFB to find and obtain a copy-neg of a 1942 photo in their collection. The game's afoot. Just as with any "expedition," we won't know what we can find until we "get there" but the forensic imaging of photos which might just trace the fate of NR16020 certainly seems "worth the trip." And like any expedition, it can't happen without funding. Anyone who contributes $100 toward this forensic Imaging project will receive an 8 x 10 print of whatever turns out to be the best (possibly historic?) image Photek can come up with. A contribution of $200 gets you access to a private web page where we'll mount high-resolution images of all the photos being examined. You can send you check, payable to TIGHAR, to: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 Or can fax you credit card info to: (302) 994-7945 or phone it in to: (302) 994-4410 LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:37:13 EDT From: Mary Jane Subject: FBI files I know that this must be old hat to you but for someone new to the forum I found the following site interesting on the now historical letters held by the FBI and released under the Freedom of Information ACT on AE and her disappearence. The FBI home page www.fbi.gov/ has a section titled FOIA. Under Historical Interests was AE's name, which took me to the documents that they released under the Freedom of Information Act. Section 1, first letter was a letter from TIGHAR in 1990 and at the bottom a note for them not to take part in any press conference with TIGHAR. Also a letter from POW regarding his recollections during the war of AE being held in a prison and other such information which I am sure you are aware of. I wonder if TIGHAR has ever spoken to any of these people who wrote letters to the FBI? Is this where some of the early theories on her disappearence came from? ************************************************************************** From Ric A lot of those letters, as I recall, were generated by Fred Goerner's investigations in the 1960s. The history of Secret Agent Amelia is really pretty interesting and goes waaay back to at least 1942. I have a file about two inches thick labled "Japanee-Man-Take-Ladyflier-Saipan" with nothing but various servicemen's recollections about stories they heard and wreckage they saw and photos and log books and briefcases they found, etc., etc. The only thing missing is the evidence. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:39:31 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Ballard titles > As far as I know Ballard is not a Cdr but a Dr (PhD-type). You're both right. Dr. Robert D. Ballard: Commissioned, U.S. Army Intelligence (I haven't been able to find out his rank). Commander U.S. Naval Reserve. B.S. University of California, Santa Barbara, 1965, Chemistry/Geology. Ph.D. University of Rhode Island, 1974, Marine Geology/Geophysics. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:50:40 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: AE Question > From Ric > > Got a URL for that? If there are actually contemporaneous documents that > discuss AE's involvment with Japanese military or police authorities they > would be extremely important and the first real evidence that any such > involvement ever happened. I don't have a URL on the Japanese Military police or anything like it. But I have a real humorous misleading URL concerning the find of the bones which mentions your name. http://caller-times.com/autoconv/newsworld99/newsworld102.html I find it hard to believe it is an AP article and of course no name for the author, but it is good fiction :-). Regards. Warren Lambing ************************************************************************** From Ric Nice to know that we're so entrenched in popular culture. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:38:07 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: AE Question >From Warren Lambing >But I have a real humorous misleading URL concerning the >find of the bones which mentions your name. Unfortunately, this is the legit website of a Scripps Howard local newspaper, the Corpus Christi Caller Times, and the article appears to have been published in February, sloppily and somewhat sarcastically re-written from some AP wire copy. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:39:37 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Sextants Below is the reply I got from Capt. Clark regarding sextants used by Delta lines, where Noonan last worked before joining PanAm in Miami. "Delta Line did place instruments on board all ships, but in practice every deck officer had his own sextant. Usually they attached small brass plaque on case for identification. These were, of course, marine sextants. I still have three marine sextants and one air bubble sextant, none of which had numbers on the exterior of boxes, only engraved on the sextants. As info, the bubble sextant box measures 9" x 9" x 5 1/4" and marine sextant boxes about double that. Hope this info useful. Regards, Jay Clark" Looks like they didn't number the outside of the boxes, only the sextants themselves. Blue skies, -jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:02:51 EDT From: Bob Subject: Japanese Secret Police Don, Thanks for the info. In my haste to post my message about the Japanese Kempeitai Secret military police, I forgot to include the link to the web site. Perhaps it's old ground - and I apologize in advance to forum members for being redundant. Anyway, for what it's worth, here's the link. http://pages.hotbot.com/advice/merrill_t/Saipan4.html ************************************************************************** From Ric Well, the website referenced (which seems to be part of a psychic something-or-other), just has a bunch of messages by one Merrill See who quotes various secondary sources to rather exhaustively belabor the point that the alleged Japanese build-up in the Marshall Islands in the 1930s is myth. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:49:45 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: numbers on boxes Jerry Hamilton writes: >Below is the reply I got from Capt. Clark regarding sextants used by >Delta lines, where Noonan last worked before joining PanAm in Miami. >"Delta Line did place instruments on board all ships, but in >practice every deck officer had his own sextant. >none of which had numbers on the exterior of boxes, only >engraved on the sextants. >Looks like they didn't number the outside of the boxes, only the sextants >themselves. What were the numbers on the instruments themselves? Do they correspond to the numbers on the boxes? Would someone who owned several have placed the corresponding serial number on the box that held that particular instrument? LTM Dave Bush ************************************************************************* From Ric I can't imagine that Capt. Clark would now know the numbers that were on sextants belonging to individual captains. The answer to any question about whether or not someone would do something is, "maybe." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:52:40 EDT From: Mary Jane Subject: Re: FBI files Agree, evidence is the missing ingredient, however, it was still interesting to see those 1937 letters and telegrams written directly to the FBI by John Q. Public with most of their names and addresses blacked out. mjc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:52:52 EDT From: Michael Real Subject: AZIMUTH CIRCLE/SEXTANT BOXES To VERN, In a previous post 1999-07-19 , you requested information on AZIMUTH CIRCLES , which could indirectly relate to the search for the mysterious sextant box numbering system. You wrote: "I've seen photos of azimuth circles but I'm not sure what they are or how they are used.........Does anyone know exactly what these things are and how they are used? I have plenty of photographs which i can scan for you of different types used over the centuries, but as you have probably seen a modern version attached to naval warships, i can furnish you with the following explanation of how they are used: An azimuth circle is usually a term applied to a sighting arrangement which is fitted to a magnetic compass to enable bearings to be taken on distant objects. Its purposes were to obtain a bearing of a fixed point for navigation purposes, or to check the reading of the compass against a known bearing in order to find the magnetic variation, or to measure the relative bearing of another ship for station-keeping purposes. The sighting arrangements in some versions allowed bearings of stars to be taken. An azimuth compass would have such a sighting arrangement incorporated in it. In other types, a navigational compass might be supplied with an azimuth ring for use when required. With respect to the sextant box mystery: in light of the 2 surveys undertaken by the NEW ZEALANDERS , as well as the scientific expeditions launched by the BRITISH and the U.S.A. for the solar eclipse observations during this period , there must be a possibility that the mysterious box could have been incorrectly identified as a sextant box , rather than a survey instrument box used for levels or theodolites or an azimuth circle/compass. Survey instruments of many types were almost universally stored in similar wooden boxes of a similar size up until the 1970's , particularly levels. Could Gallagher and others have made a fundamental identification error?- although the PENSACOLA box with a similar numbering system could suggest otherwise . For the record , our faculty at the UNIVERSITY OF TASMANIA has two sextants of a GERMAN manufacture, C. PLATH of HAMBURG 39 , (1972) , box dimensions of 310 millimetres x 310 millimetres x 200 millimetres. They differ from the PENSACOLA box by having a "skinny lid" rather than the box being split - in - half by the lid. If you require images of various azimuth circle types, please don't hesitate to comntact me. REGARDS, MICHAEL REAL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:55:46 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re. Antiques Roadshow for Bill Moffet Keep up the good work, Bill! I'm taping the 1-1/2 hours of AR being aired here each week. It continues to be all british - 3 half-hour segments. The VCR is programmed to record them so I don't forget and miss it. Then I fast-forward through them stopping for anything that looks interesting. Incidently, the AR people did respond by e-mail and confirmed what we already knew - Cincinnati, #203, Season 2. Maybe someone will get lucky and get it recorded eventually, and save me spending $20 for us to get a 1st-hand look and to hear exactly what was said about the chronometer. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:16:51 EDT From: Robert Klaus Subject: Sea Classics The current issue of Sea Classics (Sept 99) has an article on AE which promises dramatic revelations. Nothing new here really, just a rehash of the Morgenthau conspiracy theory. There are a couple of standard photos of AE and NR-16020, plus (what makes it worth the price) some good pictures of the USS Colorado, the O-3U3s and (I think) the USCGC Itasca. The last mentioned is uncaptioned, but it is in a sidebar that mentions the Itasca. The last line of the sidebar mentions the Tighar Website, expect a lot of hits. LTM (who loves seeing her picture in the magazines) Robert Klaus ************************************************************************* From Ric Sea Classics is published by Challenge Publications which also publishes Air Classics (aka Air Comics). They frequently recycle articles. The one you describe sounds like Rolly Reineck's "Captive of the Japanese" article in the June issue of AC. By the way, anyone who wants to see and hear the estimable Col. Reineck (ret.) can see him do his thing on the History Channel documentary "The Mysteries of Amelia Earhart" which will air tomorrow (Fri.) evening. Check your local listings. Oh - you'll also get to see and hear Lt. Gillespie (ret.). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:41:29 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Recycled stories Ric said: "Sea Classics is published by Challenge Publications which also publishes Air Classics (aka Air Comics). They frequently recycle articles. The one you describe sounds like Rolly Reineck's "Captive of the Japanese" article in the June issue of AC." I read Col. Rollin "Rockin' & Rollin'" Reineck's piece about AE in June's Air Classics. Normally I'd bomb the piece saying it was all smoke and mirrors, but in this case it is mostly just smoke. The story consists of occasional facts stitched together with a thread of fantasy. Air Classics is hardly a literary magazine, and has the editorial integrity of a London tabloid. Most of us buy it for the same reason we bought Playboy in our youth -- for the photos, not the articles. LTM, A2/C, USAF (ret.) Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:20:33 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Call for volunteers This summer's field work on Nikumaroro and in Fiji has enabled us to refine our hypothesis that the Electra was landed safely on the reef at Niku, sent radio distress calls for two to three days, and was then destroyed by the surf leaving its crew quite literally "marooned on a desert island." Emily Sikuli may have given us the crucial missing piece of the puzzle - the exact spot where the Earhart/Noonan world flight ended. The forensic imaging work now underway at Photek could replace anecdote with contemporaneous photographic evidence of aircraft wreckage on the reef at Niku at a time when only one aircraft was unaccounted for in the Central Pacific. (see "The Carpenter's Daughter at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/bulletin.html) With increased suspicion that at least some of the alleged post-loss radio signals may have been genuine, it has become apparent that we need to take another look at what was reportedly heard. No in-depth analysis of the various reports has been done since Randy Jacobson's excellent compilation of all of the official message traffic was made available on CD (see http://www.tighar.org/Projects/CDad.html). Most of the suspected post-loss transmissions were passed along to the searchers and thus are among the 3,000 and some messages cataloged on the CD, but they've never been systematically dug out and categorized so that a full evaluation can be made. We'll also need to seek out messages reported in other sources (such as period newspaper accounts) that may not have made it into the official record. This is a call for volunteers for a TIGHAR research project the end product of which will be a documented chronology of all reported transmissions received in the days following the disappearance that were alleged or suspected of emanating from the lost aircraft. If you would like to volunteer for this project you need to be: - a member of TIGHAR (or willing to become a member). - willing to equip yourself with the necessary research material if you don't already have them. (The CD is $100). - willing to work with other volunteers to establish a format for the chronology and a division of labor for the research. I'll appoint a team leader from among those who volunteer and periodically pass along research results and needs to the forum. Who would like to help? LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:17:43 EDT From: Richard Johnson Subject: William Stewart and AE Ric, I was reading an article written by William Stewart who claims that Fred Noonan, in a reply to Navy Lt. Commander P.V.H. Weems on May 11, 1935, wrote about certain equipment for the planned flight. Noonan stated, " for reasons which I am certain you understand, we are not permitted to discuss the particulars of the flight for dissemination among the general public." Stewart uses this as a basis for his espionage theory. Are you familiar with this letter and exactly what is it in reference to? Why would Noonan write Weems in the first place? I realize this is a bit off topic but if anyone would know the truth here it would be you. Thanks for your time! Richard Johnson ************************************************************************* From Ric Well, similarly thin threads have been used to support spy theories. (For example: the Morgenthau transcript and the "love to mother" telegram). The letter appeared as an article in the the May 1938 issue of Popular Aviation under the title "A Letter From Fred Noonan to Lieut.-Comm. P.V.H Weems" with the introduction: "Lieutenant-Commander Weems was a personal friend of the late Fred Noonan. It was at the Weems navigation school that Noonan gained much of the knowledge that later was to be responsible for the many colorful transoceanic flights in which he participated." The statement seems rather odd given Fred's long career as a master mariner. I don't think we've ever seen any paper that indicates that Fred actually attended Weems' school but it would not be surprising if Phil Weems and Fred Noonan were acquainted. First of all, in the 1935 letter Fred is talking about the Pan Am survey flight to Hawaii, not the Earhart flight. (He wasn't even involved with Earhart until March of 1937.) His comment about not being permitted to discuss the particulars of the flight is perfectly in line with Pan American's corporate policies at that time. Transoceanic commercial aviation was in its infancy and was the subject of intense competition for international routes and landing rights. Pan Am was extremely proprietary about the techniques and procedures it had developed. LTM Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:20:20 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: William Stewart and AE Boy, is this ever an example of somebody stretching the facts beyond reason! Ric is correct about the PanAm context. Noonan wrote Weems on May 11, 1935. In mid-April the first exploratory Clipper flight to Hawaii and back was completed. Understand that this was a trial of the first leg of what was to become the Clipper Manila service which eventually went Alameda(an island in the San Francisco Bay) to Hawaii to Midway to Wake to Guam to Manila. The Clipper and crew, including FN, had only arrived on the West Coast from Miami at the end of March. So this was an historical undertaking. Noonan wrote Weems in reply to a "congratulatory letter" he had received from Weems on April 1. One assumes the congratulations was for being the lead navigator for the new Pan American Clipper west coast operation. Noonan says in the letter introduction that he considers Weems, "...the foremost authority on the subject of aerial navigation,..." and that he knows he would be interested in the recently completed Hawaiian flight. He then goes on to describe in considerable detail the navigation equipment and methods used for the flight. He concludes the letter by saying he, "...would appreciate further communication with you upon any navigation matters which might be of mutual interest." Noonan uses the general disclaimer quoted by Stewart at the very beginning of the letter. He is writing only a week after the Hawaiian exploratory flight. The first Manila flight will not take place until November. As an employee of a company just beginning development of the first transPacific air service, with some risk involved, it makes sense that he make a cautionary statement to Weems. The fact that he goes into chapter and verse about the navigation aspects of the flight indicate he is not hiding anything. We have not been able to document that Noonan attended the Weems Navigation Academy. It is very clear, however, that they were in professional contact and, probably, friends. We do know that later in the same year Noonan received further correspondence and books from Weems. How anything in Noonan's letter to Weems can be turned into a conspiracy is way beyond my poor little pea brain. blue skies, -jerry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:14:30 EDT From: Phil Tanner Subject: Inquests Big news here in the UK is the London train crash. I live five minutes' walk from the station which was the last stop for the bigger of the two trains. It struck me that to get to the bottom of it the authorities will have to apply exactly the same thought processes as the Earhart Project. Of more relevance: Any death in unexplained circumstances here is formally considered at a coroner's inquest, which returns a verdict of death by accident, natural causes, unlawful killing or misadventure (which implies that the victim didn't take all the steps s/he should to ensure personal safety), or an open verdict if no cause is clear. The great majority are formalities and bigger cases are dealt with by a jury. Inquests are also held when UK citizens die abroad in unexplained circumstances, so if I went to Niku and impaled myself on a piece of aircraft wreckage the inquest would be held here in Reading, and I believe they also serve the purpose of pronouncing people dead who have been missing for a certain number of years. My question is: Does the US have an equivalent system (or do individual states), and if so were inquests held on Earhart or Noonan? And if they were, what documentation did they turn up? LTM, Phil Tanner 2276 ************************************************************************* From Ric An excellent question. Here's what Mary Lovell (The Sound of Wings, pages 307 and 308) has to say on the subject: "In Septermber 1938 .... George (Putnam) made it clear that he intended to try to establish proof of Amelia's death in order to have the will probated and to administrate the Estate in the manner in which Amelia had wished. To establish the necessary proof for the court, he wrote to Admiral Leahy who had commanded the search for Amelia, and through him obtained a sworn affidavit from Leigh Noyes, captain of the U.S.S. Lexington, on the scope and results of the search. It ended, 'No trace of either the Amelia Earhart plane or of its occupants was found.'...Armed with the necessary statements from Richard B. Black and Captain Leigh Noyes...and in the company of his employee Charles 'Cap' Palmer, George went to Los Angeles city hall to file evidence - all, it seemed likely, that there ever would be - of Amelia's death. it was accepted by the court and the will was duly probated." I imagine that Fred's widow went through a similar procedure, but it seems apparent that no in-depth investigation was carried out in either case. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:44:19 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: William Stewart and AE Does anybody know who William Stewart is? There was a guy of that name who worked for the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands when I worked there in the late 1970s; he did some historical stuff for the Dept. of Education, as I recall, and as I remember it it was pretty superficial. Wonder if it's the same guy. TKing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:23:57 EDT From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: William Stewart and AE >From Tom King > Does anybody know who William Stewart is? Evidently William Stewart is a Military Historical Cartographer. This is how he identifies himself in the article concerning AE. I discovered the article on the web. The address is www.cnmi-guide.com/history/ww2/amelia/index.htm. Richard Johnson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:04:51 EDT From: George Myers Subject: Mrs. E. Roosevelt Tonight, on the History Channel was the "Amelia Earhart Mysteries," (10/8/99 in the Bronx, NYC) The "Scud Stud" (former reporter Kent) announced between the sections of the show that Mrs. Roosevelt had planned to fly with Amelia Earhart and never did get the chance. This led me to relive the section of the "Tuskegee Airman" show, hosted by Tony Brown, which had a report that Mrs. Roosevelt flew with one of the airmen there for about 45 minutes and really enjoyed it, though it drove her watchers crazy in that she was taking a chance. The effect was that Mrs. Roosevelt never flew again, and I thought here's a place for my two cents. Ironically, the man who made millions on aircraft sales and leases, who just endowed the Smithsonian's large artifact museum on the Dulles airfield, Washington, DC, made his first sale of a used Lockheed Electra. I thoroughly enjoyed the report. George J. Myers, Jr. ************************************************************************* From Ric Actually, Eleanor did fly with Amelia . In April 1933, while AE was visiting the White House after her transatlantic flight the year before, the First Lady mentioned that the lights of Washington must be beautiful from the air at night. Amelia made arrangements with Eastern airlines to take them for a ride and the two women, dressed in evening clothes, toured the city by air. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:12:16 EDT From: Michael Real Subject: WEEMS SCHOOL OF NAVIGATION/GATTY/NONAN With respect to the Weems School of Navigation, i have the following information which may be of interest, and involves the Pioneer Instrument Company which has been previously discussed in connection with the type of sextant boxes PAN AM used. Gatty opened his own school of navigation in LOS ANGELES in 1928, and in the process, secured an agency for the PIONEER company, which could possibly account for PAN AM AIRWAYS being supplied with this brand of sextant. ( I have located GATTY's personal sextant in FIJI, and will offer more details on this and the NOONAN relationship as soon as the information can be disseminated and authenticated). GATTY attended a lesson at the WEEMS school to compare his methods with those of WEEMS', and in the process was offered a job as an instructor with the school. GATTY collaborated closely with WEEMS on a number of breakthroughs in air navigation methods and equipment, for which WEEMS acknowledged in his text-book , "WEEMS SYSTEM OF AIR NAVIGATION". GATTY was responsible for the invention of the octant or air sextant , the aerochronometer, and the drift sight , amongst others. GATTY took over as manager of the WEEMS franchise in SAN DIEGO before navigating for ROSCOE TURNER'S attempt on the absolute U.S. transcontinental record in 1929 in the Lockheed Sirius. Although the absolute record was not broken due to severe headwinds, the commercial record was broken , the Sirius carrying 3 passengers. This first test of his navigation skills is interesting when his discussion of his reactions on landing after the flight of 19 hours and 51 minutes is compared to the NOONAN flight from LAE of a similar duration, in the context of the frequent appraisals from FORUM members of what NOONAN's condition could have been when arriving in the vicinity of HOWLAND : ************************************************************************** In 1957 he wrote: "Most of us have experienced that confused, bewildered and unpleasant feeling of uncertainty which accompanies an illusion of orientation in a strange city. Everything seems reversed and you begin to lose all confidence in your ability to find your way. In 1929 i accompanied Roscoe Turner on his attempt to break the air record between Los Angeles and New York. It was my first flight to Long Island , and after a long and trying nineteen hours' flying , we landed at Roosevelt Field in very bad weather. It was in the middle of the night. I was overtired and when I oriented myself on leaving the airfield I established the wrong directions. I kept feeling that I knew my directions perfectly and kept finding that i was absolutely wrong. What is more , on subsequent visits I carried my capacity for illusion with me. Everything seemed reversed. I made mistakes so consistently that I began to lose confidence in my ability to find my way. For years after that , when I was in the region of Roosevelt Field , I always felt that North should be South and that West should be East; and even though I knew perfectly well that these directions were wrong, I somehow could not rid myself of them and had to translate them correctly in my mind with an act of conscious will each time I visited the area ." What is also interesting when contemplating whether A.E. could have landed on that reef 'wheels-down', is TURNER's physical state at the end of that flight and his landing attempts: After 20 hours of flying, Turner's judgement was frayed. Weather was bad over the city ,and the runway was poorly lit. On the first attempt to land, he overshot the field and accelerated quickly to gain height. Circling , he tried again. Twice more, he threatened to overshoot and had to give her the gun to pull away in time. On the fourth attempt , he brought her in for a bouncing landing. landing. *************************************************************************** Gatty was a supremely modest man, and of course his next famous flight with BROMLEY(the flight of the TACOMA) proved just how good he was in returning to the starting point after flying blind for 21 hours in a slowly disintegrating aeroplane filled with choking exhaust fumes . Although this pinpoint accuracy was as a result of his dead-reckoning skills combined with the WEEMS system and his abilities in taking quick accurate sextant readings, he still confided later that it was luck and good fortune and maybe instinct that brought them safely home. He further added " From my experience in those twenty five and a half hours out over the Pacific, when I found that my research work in navigation had stood me in good stead and saved my life, I had learned some of the technical obstacles to long -distance flights." REGARDS MICHAEL REAL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 10:59:19 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: WEEMS SCHOOL OF NAVIGATION/GATTY/NONAN Michael -- Is it through Gatty's son in Fiji that you've located his personal sextant? We learned of Ray Gatty's existence while we were there, and got his phone number, but unless Kris Tague followed up on it after I left, we didn't get to phoning him. I'd been thinking about pursuing this, since the questions have arisen about Gatty-Noonan connections, but don't want to get too many cooks into the same broth, as it were. LTM (who likes her broth without cooks) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:11:03 EDT From: Bill Moffett Subject: Re. Antiques Roadshow Hello, again. I'm back with another weekly AR report: Saw all WHYY-Phila had to offer Oct. 3 - 9. No chronometers or boxes. The good news is - Vern, pls note - WHYY has 3 AR segments scheduled for the coming week: Fri, 10/15, 19:30 - 20:00; same date 21:00 - 22:00 which is billed as the Cincinnati, OH show and Sat, 10/16, Noon - 13:00. Hopefully the Cinti. show is the one we've been looking for. I'll tape it & advise. As info, southern New Jersey PBS, Ch. 23, (which I cannot receive) has AR scheduled Tues, Oct. 12, 20:00 - 21:00 (Inverness/Basingstoke) and Sat, Oct 16, 14:00 - 15:00 (place not specified). - Ric, the tag-end of WHYY's AR segment last Fri. came from Bridlington, Yorkshire, which was Amy Johnson's home, showed articles from a museum there which included a mannequin in flying suit which Amy designed and wore, a model of the Gypsy Moth biplane which she flew solo from England to Australia in 1930. It wound up with the statement that she disappeared in 1941 while ferrying a plane for the RAF. Her flight bag, shown, was recovered from the Thames estuary. Unknown whether she was "shot down, ran out of fuel or got lost". I've got this on tape. Are you interested? LTM Bill Moffet #2156 ************************************************************************* From Ric Thanks Bill but I've got my hands full (so to speak) with this other missing woman flier. I wonder if Amy was captured by the Japanese? They were everywhere you know. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:14:14 EDT From: Michael Real Subject: GATTY SEXTANT TOM, In response to your enquiry below: >From Tom King > >Michael -- Is it through Gatty's son in Fiji that you've located his personal >sextant? We learned of Ray Gatty's existence while we were there, and got >his phone number, but unless Kris Tague followed up on it after I left, we >didn't get to phoning him. I'd been thinking about pursuing this, since the >questions have arisen about Gatty-Noonan connections, but don't want to get >too many cooks into the same broth, as it were. I agree with your sentiments about cooks. The only reason why i was pursuing the GATTY SEXTANT was for the purposes of using it as the jewel-in-the-crown centrespiece for a memorial display dedicated to Harold Gatty which i hope to establish in TASMANIA in order to alert the AUSTRALIAN populace to his monumental achievements, thereby hopefully encouraging due recognition . In the process of my research on the disappearance of the Lockheed Altair of Charles Kingsford Smith in the Andaman Sea in 1935, and the reasons why Gatty was not used on any of his long-distance oceanic flights, I discovered that the TIGHAR Forum and its quest for the Amelia Earhart/Fred Noonan wreckage had similar threads of interesting research interwovan with mine on a number of issues, but especially with regards to the Noonan connections. I have therefore released any pertinent information that I have to assist your quest whenever possible, and I can assure you that I shall happily divulge all the relevant information that I manage to obtain on the mysterious sextant box , the GATTY sextant and the Noonan connection as soon as they come to hand and can be verified, including photographs , etc. All that i ask is that you send me a group photograph of you all wearing that inevitable wide smile on all of your faces around a campfire somewhere on a lonely Phoenix island, with the sun just peeping over the horizon on a warm , partly cloudy, JULY morning , when the A.E. mystery is solved. I am currently at a sensitive point in the negotiations to have the sextant gifted to this planned memorial, and i am sure that you will respect the fact that any competition for it could jeopardise this quest to bring it 'home' , especially when considering the fact that it is the only known remnant of his personal effects which has not been donated to some museum or library in the U.S.A.,; we need this fountain of his wonderful navigation achievements brought to Tasmania. Therefore i am sure you can understand and respect my wish that its whereabouts are not divulged until i have secured it . To answer your guestion about RAY GATTY :- I do not know of any GATTY of this name, and the sextant is not with this person. All three of Gatty's sons are living in the U.S.A. as citizens of that country, and if there is a RAY GATTY, it could be a nephew that i am unaware of . BEST REGARDS MICHAEL REAL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:22:14 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re. Antiques Roadshow I'm not an expert at aviation histroy, but as far as I know from reading on the subject, Amy Johnson got lost in fog while delivering an Avro Anson twin engine, I believe. Thecurrent story is that she got lost in fog, got lost over the North Sea and crashed. Some of her things were indeed recovered from the Thames estuary. Herman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:59:14 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: GATTY SEXTANT Thanks, Michael. No problem at this end. Let's all cooperate. When we were in Fiji we were assured that Ray Gatty was Harold's son, and a major plantation owner near Suva. He was in the phone book, but we never got around to following up with him. He may well be a nephew. Even if he's not connected with the Gattys you're negotiating with, I reckon it's best for us not to contact him till you give us the go-ahead. Thanks Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:15:41 EDT From: Mike Meunich Subject: Tidal Data Here I go again, with apoligies. I noted in reading, (actually catching up), one of Mr. Gillespie's responses to reef wreckage, that the Navy photo taken at the time of the search, shows a "high" tide on the reef. I presume that we know or can find out Lambrect's time of departure, route and return to Colorado, and by calculation his approximate time or range of time over the reef. Would any of this be useful in working tidal times backwards to July 3? ************************************************************************** From Ric Establishing the time of what we have come to call "The Lambrecht Photo" is trickier than it would seem. The planes were catapulted from the COLORADO at 07:00 on July 9, 1937 and flew first to McKean Island before proceeding to Gardner. After spending an unspecified amount of time over Gardner they continued on to Carondelet Reef and then returned to the ship where they were hoisted aboard around 10:00. However, in returning to the ship their route ma y have taken them back over Gardner, so we don't whether the photo was taken during the initial inspection or on the way back to the COLORADO. That make as much as an hour and a half's difference in the time of the photo. All we can say with any certainty is that between, say, 08:15 and 09:45 there was high water on the reef at Gardner, but we don't know whether the tide pictured in the photo was at peak high water or on its way in or on its way out. One of the things this investigation has taught me is that it's just as important to realize and accept what you DON'T and probably CAN'T know as it is to understand what you DO and CAN know. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:42:03 EDT From: Kabumpo Subject: Re: Antiques Roadshow For Bill Moffet: Kudos to you for watching all those Antique Roadshows. I saw the Cincinnati one (and reported same) a couple of weeks ago. The chronometer shown was numbered 8070 and made by an A. Johanson of London. What more should I have noted? Kabumpo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:43:06 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Contact needed TIGHAR member George Jones wrote to me: <> Anybody got an email address for Mr. Kristofferson? Okay, okay. So how do we find out who his agent is? LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:30:33 EDT From: Velina Subject: Kristofferson Ric wrote: <> The only web page that I found that maybe useful to you is at this address: http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/usr/h92/h9225291/kris/inter.html This web page contains a chat room and guest book. I'll keep searching for information. Velina ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:20:29 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Tidal Data I believe the Lambrecht photo was taken just before landing back on the Colorado. The photo was taken from high elevation from the SE. This position corresponds nicely with the reconstructed track of the planes with their return back from Carondelet Reef. If it was during their approach to Gardner, they would be at lower elevation and closer to the island, and not from the SE, as McKean is to the NE. If they were leaving Gardner to Carondelet, they also would have been at lower elevation, and would show a picture from the W. The only reasonable scenario for being S or SE of Gardner at elevation and distance is on the return to Colorado. It also makes sense that on the return flight back to the ship that personnel would have time to get the camera out and take a picture; otherwise their eyeballs would be concentrating on finding wreckage. While not proof, this scenario makes an awful lot of sense. ************************************************************************ From Ric (Randy and I have hassled about this before.) Plotting this out on a chart of the Phoenix Group and using the COLORADO deck logs, I can't make it work. I don't see how a photo taken upon departure from Gardner for Carondelet would show the island from the west. Carondelet is southeast of Gardner. if you leave Gardner to head for Carondelet Reef you depart the island from just east of the island's southeastern tip - just where the Lambrecht photo was taken from. The photo shows no part of the airplane in the frame. The only way to do that with an 03U-3 is to shoot looking toward the 4 to 5 o'clock or from the 7 to 8 o'clock position. The angle of the Lambrecht photo is consistent with a departing shot taken toward the 4 to 5 o'clock position. The altitude looks to be ballpark 1,200 feet - no big deal to climb there from a search that, according to Lambrecht, didn't go lower than 400 feet. Drawing a line back from Carondelet Reef past the point where the photo was taken misses the COLORADO's track entirely. (Randy will be here for a planning conference later this month and we'll have a chance to draw lines on maps, pound on desks and throw coffee cups at each other.) LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:24:18 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Kristofferson For what it's worth, I believe there is some sort of association of actors/singers, etc. called ASCAP. I don't know what the letters stand for, but it may show up in a web word search. Also, I believe that all actors (if you call Kristofferson that) need to belong to the actor's union called "Equity", and there is a publication dedicated to actors/actresses called "Variety". Lastly, you might try a blind call to the Morris Talent Agency in L.A. This is one of the largest talent agencies around, and perhaps they will have good leads---actually, I hope that they do, as otherwise a lot of this information comes from my mother, who did some stage acting awhile back (her big moment was starring as the distraught wife of Pontius Pilate in what I suspect was a pretty ghastly play; I don't remember, as she was pregnant at the time with me). --Chris Kennedy ************************************************************************** From Bill Carter I will have the name and phone number for Kristoffersen's agent for you today or tomorrow. I have some connections to the entertainment industry. -Bill Carter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:36:53 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Caroline comes through Forum subscriber (and new TIGHAR member) Caroline Marx has successfully sought out and copy-photoed one of the images we need for the forensic imaging project. It's a January 1942 U.S. Army Air Corps photo showing the section of reef where earlier photos show objects consistent with the airplane wreckage described by Emily Sikuli (see "The Carpenter's Daughter" at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/ArchivedBulletins.html) Previously we had only had a photocopy of this photo but Caroline has now gotten us a photographic copy plus a scanned image. These will be essential to the study being done by Jeff Glickman at Photek in trying to ascertain what was there and where it went. A sincere Thank You to Caroline for a job well done. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:49:27 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: The Last Tidal Data Posting From today's posts it looks like we might have a starting point to narrow the possiblities on the tides. It looks from Mr. Gillespie's response to my post that we have a range of 08:15 and 09:45 for the time of the photo. Is there enough detail in the photo, (shadows), given it's known position relative to the island, to determine the angle of the sun and thus the time of day? We don't know whether the tide was ebb or flood, but appears to be higher than would allow a plane to land. Using those assumptions, is there enough to determine a range of possiblities during the "time window" for AE to land. Since the tidal flow cycles approximately every 12 hours, it would appear that some form of high tide was in place between 08:15 and 09:45 on July 3rd. I would be a lot more comfortable with TIGHAR'S current theory about the landing north of Norwich if we didn't have what appears to be a "wet" reef during the projected range of time for arrival. ************************************************************************** From Ric Who says we have a wet reef during the projected time of arrival? You're grossly oversimplifying the tidal situation. Just because there was some flavor of highish tide between 08:15 and 09:45 on July 9th you can not extrapolate that the same condition existed at that time of day a week earlier (Earhart disappeared on the July 2nd, not July 3rd). I'll say it one last time. We've looked into this with expert help and there just are not sufficient data available to determine the tidal state at Nikumaroro late in the morning of July 2, 1937 with sufficient certainty. The thread is dead. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:05:26 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: media matters This morning I did a short (6 minute) live television interview for the Fox Cable News network. It was a fairly routine interview (What's the latest on the search for Amelia Earhart?) except for a couple of interesting subtleties: - in the intro to the interview the search was described as being conducted by the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery. I was introduced as the group's Executive Director. In the past, the tendency has been to describe the search as something that I was doing and TIGHAR often did not get mentioned at all except as "Gillespie's group." This is a big improvement. - there was no mention of any other theory, even though I know that the show's producer had a review copy of Elgen Long's new book in front of her when she called me on the phone to set up the interview. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 08:54:45 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re. Antiques Roadshow Bill Moffet wrote: <> Great! I think we're in luck! I doubt there was more than one show done in Cincinnati. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 08:59:56 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Antiques roadshow >Kudos to you for watching all those Antique Roadshows. I saw the >Cincinnati one (and reported same) a couple of weeks ago. The chronometer >shown was numbered 8070 and made by an A. Johanson of London. What more >should I have noted? Since I'm sort of in the middle of this Antiques Roadshow/Chronometer thing, perhaps I should say something in response to the posting below. Indeed we remember your reporting on the Cincinnati show. My own wishful thinking is something like this... IF the presence of a 4-digit number on the box has any relationship to the 4-digit numbers on the two sextant boxes we know of, then it's worth pursuing as far as we can. That may well not be very far! I believe it was originally reported that the number was stencilled on the Chronometer box. That makes it all the more interesting. Gallagher said the 4-digit number (3500) was stencilled on the Gardner Island sextant box. I would like us to have a video record of what the number looked like on the Chronometer box. And I would like us to know exactly what was said about the origin of the Chronometer and box. For us, the interest is essentially the question, who stencilled the number on the box? Was it possibly the same party who stencilled a number on the Gardner Island sextant box? And does this relate to the similar 4-digit number handwritten on the Pensacola sextant box known to have once been in the possession of Fred Noonan? That brings us to the really hard part that may well prove to be a deadend. What was said on the AR Roadshow program will probably be of little help. So, we'll be confronted with the task of trying to find and make contact with the current owner of the Chronometer and box. Then we hope more is known about its origin than was said on the show. Yes, it's a very, very long shot but I feel we must pursue it to the bitter end. There are precious few navigational instrument boxes around with numbers stencilled, or handwritten, on them. I think we have to chase any one that does surface. It may prove to be one of those things Ric just spoke of - a thing we have to recognize we can never know, and let it go. Vern ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:27:42 EDT From: Roger Kelley Subject: Re: Caroline comes through Is there any sign of debris on the reef in the photos Caroline Marx obtained? Roger Kelley #2112 *********************************************************************** From Ric With the "naked eye" I can't see any sign of the same stuff that can be seen in the 1937 and 1938 photos but Jeff Glickman may be able to see more. It is also apparent that sometime between those photos and this one (1942) the island got hit with a big enough storm to break the entire aft end off the Norwich City. Most of the stern sank out of sight off the edge of the reef but some debris was also scattered shoreward. The wreck has a similar appearance in photos taken in June of 1941. My suspicion is that the storm that did the deed was the whopper that Gallagher described hitting the island in December 1940. Any event strong enough to rip that freighter apart should certainly be enough to move whatever we see in the 1937 and 1938 photos. Whether that debris is, in 1942, mingled with the fresher wreckage from the ship is another question. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:31:53 EDT From: Bill Zorn Subject: Re: Contact needed go searching down the wierd wall of the web world, Ric, see if he has what is refered to somethimes as an offical site. You'd be surprized at the people who are out there (here?) And how many will actually answer. ************************************************************************** From Ric No argument. What could be weirder, or more fascinating, than this forum? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:58:02 EDT From: Skeet Gifford Subject: Space Imaging On local TV news last night and in the paper this morning was the report of Space Imaging, Inc., of Thornton (Denver metro area), Colorado. Their satellite pictures are "spy-level" resolution. One report stated 3-meter accuracy; another said that objects as small as one meter could be identified. Oblique and vertical images are available. Price for map-quality pictures is quoted at $200-$300 per square mile. Interpretation would be another matter. Skeet Gifford 0001CBE ************************************************************************** From Ric That is certainly better resolution than has been previously available to non-spooks. To be useful to us they would first have to have imagery of Niku available (which, in our experience, is pretty unusual) and second, have it in a spectrum that would permit foliage penetration (even more unusual). But there's no harm in asking. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:36:23 EDT From: Dave Porter Subject: time traveling Tighar team? I'm guessing that this is merely fallout from your Fox News interview of a few days past. Fox 2 News here in Detroit reported tonight that a "team of amateur archeologists" was in Fiji searching for a wooden box thought to contain the bones of Amelia Earhart, and that said team was currently being stymied in it's efforts because the Prime Minister wasn't letting them search his official residence, where the team suspects the box is. I gave them a quick phone call to correct their timeline. LTM, Dave Porter, 2288 ************************************************************************* From Ric Amazing. We didn't talk about any of that in my interview and the story was badly distorted when it was current back in July. Tom King will be thrilled to know that he's an amateur archaeologist. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:33:30 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Time travelling <> Oh well, wasn't the original meaning of "amateur" one who does things for the love of doing them? I can live with that. LTM (who's in it for the love of it, too) Tom King ************************************************************************* From Ric I've gotten a couple of phone calls about that same old news story. Apparently it went out on the wire yesterday. Weird. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:38:21 EDT From: Jim Thompson Subject: Lambrecht photo vantage point and tidal data Re-reading Lambrecht's report of the flight to Gardner and back leads me to believe that aspects of both Randy's scenario and Ric's scenario seem plausible. Lambrecht states that the planes did "repeated circling and zooming". If they circled anti-clockwise, the island would be to their left; clockwise circling would put it to the right.Would Ric's "4 to 5 o'clock position" taken during departure from a clockwise circling yield the same results as Randy's "picture from the W" if they had been circling anti-clockwise? And would this also be the same as Ric's "7 to 8 o'clock position" given anti-clockwise circling? Similarly, based on the "pickup" time (1030) listed by Lambrecht, the position of the Colorado at this time (174.40 W, 4.50S), and the position of the SE tip of the island (174.49W, 4.70S), the difference in distance between a "direct" flight path back from Carondelet Reef to the pickup point vs. a "detour" via the island appears to be on the order of less than 15nm. If this wouldn't take much additional time, the fliers could have returned to "take one last look", taking Randy's picture from the SE in the process. Clearly more speculation! I suppose it would be expecting too much to see well defined shadows somewhere in the image! Sources: Lambrecht report 07/16/1937 posted on TIGHAR website Colorado.pdf (record 167) from TIGHAR Research CD USS Bushnell Survey (Sheet 9) via Randy Jacobson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:44:17 EDT From: Kathy Gire Subject: Antiques Roadshow To Vern: Thanks for your explanation about the chronometer. I wish I had paid more attention at the time, but we had company and I only got the number and maker into my feeble brain. My impression is that the number was NOT stenciled or handprinted, but you should be able to solve that when you see the tape. I hope such diligence is rewarded...for all of us! Kathy Gire ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:15:14 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Lambrecht photo vantage point and tidal data I apparently relied upon memory, by assuming Carondelet Reef was SW of Gardner: it is really SSE. Nevertheless, the flight path back from Carondelet to the USS Colorado places the planes relatively close to Gardner, and the view would have been to the pilot's left. If the photo was taken upon departure from Gardner, the prevailing view would have been directly behind the pilot's seat. I think the most reasonable time of the photo being taken would be just prior to landing in the lee of the Colorado. ************************************************************************** From Ric According to the deck log, COLORADO sighted Gardner Island "bearing 179.5 degrees (True), distance about 15 miles" at 09:45. They "sighted a wrecked ship a little to right of island bearing 180 degrees (True)." That places the ship about 15 miles directly north of the island on a heading of 150 degrees True and a speed of 13 knots 35 minutes before they changed course to create a lee for the first plane to land at 10:20. That puts them about 12 miles northeast of the island when the planes are recovered. In order to take the photo on the way back to the ship the flight would have to deviate 8 miles west from a direct course from Carondelet reef. There is no mention in any of the reports (Capt. Friedell's offcial report, Lambrecht's article for the Weekly Newsletter, or Short's letter to his father) of two flights being made over Gardner Island. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:23:46 EDT From: Pat Gaston Subject: Flight manifest Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the manifest or inventory listing all items aboard the Electra when it left Florida? I know I've seen it, I just don't remember where. I need to ascertain whether Fred was packing a bottle of B&B or just plain Benedictine, a much inferior concoction. You know what a drinker he was... Okay, I'm kidding about the last part. But would appreciate a copy of the manifest, or directions on where to find it. ************************************************************************* From Ric I'm aware of no such manifest. Sure wish there was one, but I suspect that you're thinking of the inventory of the plane that was done by the Army Air Corps following the Luke Field accident that ended the first world flight attempt. In her usual style, Earhart walked away from the wreck and went home that same day leaving the Army to clean up the mess and ship the plane back to California. A young lieutenant (bless his shavetailed heart) made an obsessively detailed inventory of the contents of the plane as part of that process. We'll put up on the TIGHAR website as a Document of the Week very soon. It's fascinating, informative and contains some items that we can't even identify (what, dare we ask, is a Vibracorder?). LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:46:03 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: flight manifest (what, dare we ask, is a Vibracorder?). TRY AN EARLY FORM OF "TAPE RECORDER" LTM -- Blue Skies, Dave Bush ************************************************************************* From Ric Is that a guess or do you know for sure? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:55:29 EDT From: Harry Poole Subject: Vibracorder I cannot guarantee it, but I believe it might be a recorder of some type using a vibrator power supply. Power supplies from generators at that time often used a vibrating reed relay to convert the DC power to AC for transformers. These were described as vibrator power supplies. LTM Harry #2300 ************************************************************************* From Dennis McGee OK, I know Ric put this up here just for me, so I'll bite . . . an early form of a tape recorder, right? You know, "vibra" as in vibrate as in vocal cords . . . . I'm gonna stop right there and not go ANY further. LTM, (nope, not gonna say it!) Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ************************************************************************* From Ric Thank you Dennis. The complete entry is - Vibracorder "Ohmer-Kienzle" - which, I presume, must be the manufacturer. I didn't think that the magnetic tape recorder had been invented yet in 1937. I know there were "wire recorders" that came first. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:30:09 EDT From: Bob Cullinan Subject: Vibracorders I found this definition on the web: "Vibracorders are specially designed clocks with chart recorders that measure movement." I'm not sure what AE &FN would use this for, but at least we know what it is. Bob Cullinan ************************************************************************** From Ric Hmmmm. I know that a "barograph" is a device that combines a clock with a barometer (altimeter) and records readings over time on a graph on a revolving drum. They're used to verify record flights. ************************************************************************** From Tońo Hello good people of Tighar. I found this searching yahoo. GRAZING BEHAVIOR OF MARES AND STEERS ON ORCHARDGRASS AND MARES ON COMMON BERMUDAGRASS To evaluate the differences in grazing behavior, three Quarter horse mares and three yearling steers were grazed together on a .75 hectare (ha) orchardgrass pasture. Grazing behavior was measured using a vibracorder attached to the halter of each animal. Vibracorders are specially designed clocks with chart recorders that measure movement. During grazing, the movement of the head marks the chart and grazing activity can be determined. ... Atentamente Antonio (Tońo) Gómez Abraham ************************************************************************** From Ric Sounds like there was some weird stuff going on in the back of that airplane. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:35:01 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Lambrecht photo vantage point and tidal data Graphical analysis of the bearings made indicate the Colorado was at 4degrees, 33'S, 174degrees, 26.5'W, and from Carondelet, the flight path was primarily northerly. They would pass Niku at the photo angle at about a range of 2.5-3 miles, which looks about right. ************************************************************************** From Ric Graphical schmaphical. The bearings were made at 09:45 and the planes weren't recovered until 10:20 by which time COLORADO had gone another 8 miles. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:44:03 EDT From: Tońo Subject: Canton Engine Hello good and valiant people of Tighar. I would like to ask about the Canton engine. It does not get mentioned in the three Expedition Reports I have seen from the admirable Niku IIIIP journey. Is it still of the same interest? I'm a Canton engine go-person. Please tell us about it as much as is available. thank you. Faithfully yours Antonio (Tońo) Gomez A. *************************************************************************** From Ric We're still very interested in the Canton Engine but we did not go to Canton to do any further on-site investigation during Niku IIIIP. We're trying to find witnesses and, ideally, written records which can corroborate Bruce Yoho's recollections and possiblt help us determine where the engine was found. So far, we have not been able to find anyone who was there that remembers the engine being recovered although some have a recollection of an old engine being around the maintenance shop on Canton. We're still trying to track down some of the pilots. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:52:00 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Vibracorders galore To my knowledge, there was never an audio recording device called a "vibracorder". Wire recorders were VERY primitive (read: "not very useful") and expensive in 1937. People generally used transcription discs, which sounded fairly good by then, for really important stuff. By 1940, wire recorders were being successfully marketed to the US business community as dictation devices. Their bandwidth was very narrow, distortion and dropouts were high, and they were barely able to handle the reproduction of a slow, clearly enunciated voice. The magnetic tape recorder was slowly developed in Germany through the late 30s-early 40s and was essentially unknown outside of Germany until 1945. That year, allied intelligence types had become mystified how Germany could afford to assemble full, high quality symphony orchestras to play Beethoven and Wagner live at 3AM in the waning days of the war. The mystery was solved when the Reichrundfunk studios in Hamburg were overrun: The place had several new magnetic tape machines and reels of celluloid tape coated with red iron oxide containing recordings of orchestral music. The two big, early American tape recorder manufacturerers, Ranger (named after the elite army unit) and Ampex, inherited their original technology directly from machines looted by US army personnel from German radio studios and smuggled privately back to the states. This formed the basis of audio recording technology in the US and Europe for the next 35 years. william 2243 ************************************************************************** From Ric Is this a cool Forum or what? ************************************************************************** From Tom King Well, it WAS the "Flying Laboratory," after all. Do you suppose they were trying to quantify variation in vibration under different flight conditions, or something? Or maybe they had horses. On pingpong balls. LTMares Tom King ************************************************************************** From Ty Sundstrom Many early aircraft used vibrator type time recorders that would show flight hours, as recording type tachometers were not in vogue until after W.W.II and were seldom seen on light aircraft (Taylorcraft, Luscombe, Aeronca, etc.) as standard equipment until even later. The more expensive light aircraft or slightly larger (Cessna 195, Beech 35, etc.) ones, often were the first to have recording tachs as standard issue equipment. They (vibrating recorders)often were secured from tampering via a key lock built into the recorder box. Sort of like an early flight data recorder in its simplest form. Ty Sundstrom ************************************************************************* From Ric Mystery solved. Thanks Ty. ************************************************************************* From Natko I found this at http://www.kienzle.net/new-e.htm. I should be very mistaken if this is not the same Kienzle who made AE's vibracorder. <> I took the liberty to make an online enquiry about the Ohmer - Kienzle vibracorder. I'll keep the Forum posted on the answers. Natko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:57:52 EDT From: Barb Norris Subject: Re: media matters I guess we're on the fringes of some major media blundering. So what else is new..? A friend just called to say she heard on the radio today that, "a group of archeologists from the U.S. were CURRENTLY searching the Fiji Islands for a box of bones they believe contain the remains of Amelia Earhart. Seems the group is facing serious opposition from the President of Fiji who is unwilling to let them search his premises. Sounds like he has something to hide." Good grief. Barb Norris ************************************************************************** From Ric I was answering phone calls about this all day yesterday. Apparently some pea brain resurrected a three month old story that was woefully inaccurate in the first place and threw it out onto the wire as current news. Lord protect us from slow news days. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:11:19 EDT From: Dean Alexander Subject: Re: Canton Engine I was wondering same about he engine. In reading back thru past postings etc., the engine is mentioned several times but it doesn't seem that anyone has made an attempt, if its actually known where it is located, to go check it out, and see if it is from the Electra or not. This, even if it could not be determined exactly where it came from, would confirm that at least one of the engines was dismembered from the aircraft we are seeking at some point. Also, has anyone attempted to dive around the reef or just beyond it, if thats even possible, to see if any debris can be spotted underwater possibly wedged in the coral? With the newest revelation from our witness on Fiji, Emily, it seems that water exploration in the area of the "Steel Frames" might be fruitful. Just from reading all of the many great posts, and looking at the map and seeing where everything was found, it seems that the plane, or a plane, found itself at the northwest end of the island/atoll just northwest of where the SS. Norwich City wreck is. It most likely ended up close to or maybe on the reef, and in all likelyhood damaged. Soon afterward a storm came in from the west, northwest and ravaged it into pieces. Its easy to see a throwing pattern from the west northwest to south southeast of debris. I can't help but think some careful underwater exploration, especially in the area where that "beam" is seen in those photos, would be fruitful indeed. In any event, I am a novice with some raw observations, and gut feelings, who finds this all facinating. Great work so far to all. This is one of the last unresolved great mysteries of our time. Take care....DA ************************************************************************** From Ric That's a pretty good test. If we've got this thing right it should be obvious to a novice from raw observation. If you'll read the articles about the Canton engine on the TIGHAR website (http://www.tighar.org/Projects/AEArts.html) you'll see that we've been to Canton and found that the dump in which the engine is said to have been placed has been buried. We have not yet figured out a way to economically excavate several tons of coral rubble. A whole lot of scuba diving was done in by the Niku I expedition in 1989 but not right in that area. What we really need to figure out is whether the heavy stuff Emily saw on the reef in 1940 (and apparently shown in the photos taken in 1937 and 1938) went seaward or shoreward. We're hoping that the forensic imaging project will give us some clues. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:21:07 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Photos Up All ten photos that are being examined by the Forensic Imaging Project are now up on the TIGHAR website at: http://www.tighar.org/Projects/bulletin.html You guys are gonna LOVE this research bulletin. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:22:41 EDT From: Jim Thompson Subject: Space Imaging In the past, I've used the search engines of a few Satellite Image providers to look for images of Niku. Usually it's a matter of just typing in lat/long and indicating the desired imagery. Typically the matter of "cloud cover" enters into the matter. Using the "I'll take anything you've got" criterion has always yielded "No Results". Too bad. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:38:25 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Lambrecht photo vantage point and tidal data Excuse me, Ric, but graphical analysis of the bearings made by the Colorado, between 1000 and 1050 local time, a total of ten separate bearings, of both the north and south tip of Gardner simultaneously is a much better navigational method than extrapolation from star sights at 0600 and the log entry at 0800. The reconstructed navigation of the Colorado using reported fixes (excluding the bearings) is quite similar to that of the bearings, including the turn into the wind of the Colorado just before recovery. This indicates two separate, contemporaneous documents which agree to precisely locate where the Colorado was just prior to and after recovery of the aircraft. There is no other similar quality of navigational fixes anywhere for any ship during the entire search. If you are not interested in tried and true methods of scientific methodologies to determine what went on, why are we all here? I deplore your sneering attitude towards this analysis. ************************************************************************** From Ric Ahhh Jeez...I'm in trouble again. You apparently have access to information I was not aware of, in which case I owe you an apology. Where are you finding these ten bearings? I have a copy of the COLORADO deck logs and the only bearings I see are the two at 0945 which have the island at 179.5 True and the shipwreck at 180 True. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:52:44 EDT From: Ignacio Subject: Crash Site Picture Rick, I have just learned about this forum in the last couple of months; I have attempted to read most of of the FAQ, latest postings to the forum, the TIGHAR tracks, and the reports from the expeditions. One item that I am still not clear in my mind is based on the following events: 1 - Friday July 2, 1937 - AE crashes somewhere on or near Niku 2 - Week July 3 through July 8, 1937 - AE's Electra 10E possibly destroyed/hidden by rough surf waves 3 - Friday July 9, 1937 - Airplane search launched from USS Colorado, reports of no airplane crash visible, but 'recent habitation'. If the crash site picture, 99.99% (appx) identified to AE's Electra 10E was taken, looks like it would have to have been taken during #2 above, or the plane was hidden out of site (underwater ?).... 4 - Then perhaps if the plane was submerged, later on was brought back out to the reef/beach, by a subsequent surf wave action ? 5 - OR perhaps the picture was taken elsewhere ? If the picture was taken during the week of July3-July 8th, seems to me like this would have been a very newsworthy and famous event, so it can almost be ruled out ? Then we are left with the plane 'was hidden from view' during the search of July 9, 1937, and was brought back out, almost intact after that search, the picture was then taken, and then the airplane was either totally destroyed by the surf or hidden back under water. Then the TIGHAR expedition finds a 99.99% certainty piece (of Plexiglas) window that most likely came from AE's Electra on Niku, Are these the sequence of events as it is now thought to have happened ? I'm struggling with #4 and #5 above; does anyone have more insight or ideas as to what happened in #3 and #4 above ? Regards, Ignacio ************************************************************************** From Ric I can't resolve the Wreck Photo with Emily's recollections and the photographs that seem to corroborate them. I agree that the Wreck Photo shows a big-engined Lockheed 10 (a C or an E) but there is nothig in the photo that is unique to NR16020. forced to choose between the Wreck Photo (of unknown provenance) and the "Wreckage Photos" of known provenance, i have to go with the latter. I don't know where the Wreck Photo was taken or what airplane it shows, but I don't think it was taken on Niku and I don't think it's Earhart's plane. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:57:54 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Norwich City/Reef Debris In several posts over the past month, we've made much about the seeming paradox of the native islanders seeing wreckage that they perceived to be from an aircraft & european persons visiting the island, who never recorded ever seeing such wreckage. It has occurred to me (being an avid fisherperson) that if many of the islanders spent much of their time fishing on &/or off the reef, they would probably have spent a great deal of that time around the immediate area of the Norwich wreck, because the wreck itself & it's debris field would prove to be an excellent artificial structure serving as a relatively safe haven for forage fish seeking to flee from the jaws of larger, predator fish foraging for food on or around the reef. Thus these islanders, spending considerable time, in reasonably close proximity to the wreck & having a fairly intimate familiarity with the reef & it's environs, on a frequent basis, would certainly have far greater perception of the debris/wreckage that existed on the reef than visitors lacking that same perspective. Also, the question was raised as to why would AE/FN leave the immediate area of the Norwich City for any other location on the island. We might recall that AE/FN had no knowledge that the US Navy was about to launch such a broad based _aerial_ search & probably concluded their only hope of rescue was the Itaska, which had been unable to home in on their radio signals; Therefore, since the Norwich City could only be seen on one side of the island (from sea level), it would seem prudent to explore the island (at least along the open beaches) to establish (if possible) more than one visable site from which they could look for the approaching Itaska, before their strength, water & any provisions they had available, ran out. My only problem with such scenario, is why they didn't try to leave some sort of signal or sign as to which direction they headed. (Of course maybe they did but the transient nature of the signals or signs they left were quickly obliterated by the hostile environment of the island.) Unfortunately, 62 years later, it's almost impossible to reconstruct the factual scenario they were acutally faced with (one or both injured or ill, shortage &/or lack of fresh water & food, the aircraft badly damaged upon landing or destroyed by high/rough surf shortly thereafter), so the best we can do is speculate what they _might_ have done under various circumstances_we_might envision, with no degree of certainty that is what they actually_did_ & of course we keep on looking for the remains of the plane & the crew. (Certainly a tantalizing combination of fascination & frustration!) Don Neumann *************************************************************************** From Ric I really really like your point about why you go fishing near the Norwich City. Not being a "fishperson" myself I hadn't thought of that. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:02:34 EDT From: John Subject: Canton Engine & Tree Trunk I landed on Canton Feb.13 1942. I observed A tree trunk on the beach It must have been 3 1/2 to 4 ft across by 35 to 40 ft. long. It was washed up on the beachby a storm There were no trees on CANTON , only one coconut tree on the north side. Maybe the same storm that carried the tree trunk to CANTON washed the electra off the reef. Just a thought. CANTON & GUADALCANAL JOHN ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:09:28 EDT From: Mark Turner Subject: More vibracorders I believe that the Ohmer-Kienzle Vibracorder is now similar to the Mannesman VDO Kienzle Tachograph. It could have been used to show that the airplane had not landed prematurely during a World Flight attempt, or the non-stop flight from Hawaii to California. See this Web page http://www.vdokienzle.com/comvehic/2111.htm Historical data on Kienzle. A heritage of innovation in precision instrumentation. The tachograph was invented in 1921 by Kienzle Apparate GmbH, a German company which was the original parent of VDO Instruments. Today VDO Instruments, VDO Instruments and Kienzle are part of Mannesmann AG, a multinational corporation with annual revenues of over $18-billion. Mannesmann is a leading supplier of high technology products, with a major emphasis in vehicular and process control instrumentation. This commitment to innovation and precision in instrumentation is a valuable resource to VDO as it strives to meet the high expectations of North American companies and public agencies for advanced fleet operation information systems. Mark L. Turner ************************************************************************** From Ric Earhart was scheduled to make many, many stops during the world flight attempt. Nobody cared how many stops she made. From what Ty Sundsrtrom says it seems most likely that the vibracorder was aboard simply to keep track of engine time in the absence of recording tachometers. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:11:09 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Space Imaging I have contacted Space Imaging for advice/guidance with respect to a separate project I am working on in the Middle East. I will let the Forum know what I find out, but I am told by Space Imaging that, as of now, only photos "in inventory" are available. Apparently, the group has launched their own satellite, which will begin taking pictures to order in late December or early in the new year. Their web site is www.spaceimaging.com. They have several sample photos. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:02:08 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Lambrecht photo vantage point and tidal data Capt. Friedell wrote a letter to the Naval Hydrographic Office documenting the mislocation of Gardner Island. Included in that letter were all of the bearings, times, and a chart of the Colorado track from prior to 6AM, IIRC. I do remember that the 6AM star sight fix had at least 6 star fixes to constrain the location very tightly. I will bring you a copy of the letter next weekend. ************************************************************************* From Ric I was not aware of that. This information could help us georeference the island to the GPS data we collected in 1997. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:08:40 EDT From: Ignacio Subject: DF on Howland In Wilhelm Friedell's (Captain of the U.S.S. Colorado) report, the portion of the paragraph quoted below states that at Howland Island there were weather observers with a direction finder; was there ever a report filed by these people, stating where the last known AE's radio signals were coming from ? "On Howland Island there are four weather observers, from Honolulu equipped with a direction finder for this flight, and a radio for communication with the Honolulu Radio Station, and the Coast Guard Cutter ITASCA." Ignacio ************************************************************************** From Ric The direction finder on Howland was a high frequency unit brought there aboard the ITASCA. No directional bearings were obtained on Earhart's inflight transmissions but a dubious "NW/SE" bearing was taken one of the alleged post-loss signals. The activities of the DF on Howland are documented in a log kept by the operator. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:25:54 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: Norwich City/Reef Debris << I really really like your [Don Neumann] point about why you go fishing near the Norwich City. Not being a "fishperson" myself I hadn't thought of that. >> This is a very interesting idea about good fishing near debris. I'd have to say that the sharks of Niku agree with Don's observation. I spent a good deal of time on the reef during our past trip. In the Norwich City wreckage and out along the Westen edge (where there are large chunks of coral rubble thrown strewn about the surface) I could see at least half a dozen sharks at any one time chasing their next meal. The smooth areas remained relatively quiet. LTM, Russ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:34:19 EDT From: Jim Subject: Photo #5 I saw the list post on the photos. Interesting work. Maybe good photo analysis will turn something up...even after all these years. Regarding photo #5. A comment. Although the photos may have been taken by PBY, the outline of the "aircraft" in the photo does not at all resemble a PBY. It looks more like a Curtiss Helldiver (don't ask me the BU number!). They are very big. Helldivers have a thick body and a very distinctive large rudder. Wings, mounted low on fuselage, may not be visible if A/C is moving right to left and in a right hand bank so you only see a silhouette. As low as it is it would be a dicy maneuver. But, back then risks were relative. A PBY has a pylon mounted high wing and twin engines. Although it has a large rudder the body is slim and under hangs the wings. Even if the plane was banking to the right you should see the necelles the pylon and maybe parts of the wings since they are high and not buried in the shadow of the fuselage. Lastly, the object appears to be nearly on the same plane, or on the same plane, as the tidal flats. Although the shape is not close to a Lockheed, damage, shapes and shadows can play tricks on the eye. How interesting! Regards, Jim ************************************************************************* From Ric I know what you mean. When I first saw the profile I too immediately thought of an SB2C but it's too big for a Helldiver and the type didn't go into production until a year after the photo was taken. What's throwing you off, I think, is that the PBYs that were flying this mission were not the PBY 5s and 5As we're used to seeing but the earlier version with the more rounded vertical tail. (We have good photos of them in other pictures from the same mission.) But I agree with you that he must be right down on the deck. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:16:08 EDT From: jvanzanten Subject: Re: Photo #5 I was beginning to wonder why there is no shadow if it is "on the deck". I suppose it could be overcast, but I also got wondering if the image is the shadow of the aircraft from which the photo was taken. Is this possible? ************************************************************************* From Ric I don't think so. If you saw the whole frame you'd see that the camera plane is way too far away to cast such a well-defined shadow. Good question though. If the shape is a plane flying low over the reef where is its shadow? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:19:02 EDT From: Dick Evans Subject: Howland For those interested in Howland Island here is a very nice web page: http://geography.miningco.com/education/scilife/geography/library/cia/blchowland.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:20:27 EDT From: Bill Stout Subject: VIBRACORDER I remember a FBO in the Chicago area that had trouble with folks turning off the hobbs meters (via master switch)and cheating on the amount of time (rent)they paid for. A recording tach would be lower if flown with a low rpm. He cured the problem by mounting these big ugly recording clocks over the hat shelf on all of his fleet. They were activated (you guessed it) by vibration. I was told at the time that these devices were commonly used by off-road machinery and trucks to record engine time, since they were virtually impossibe to foil. LTM (who is off subject) Bill Stout ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:37:06 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: media matters Ric wrote: <> Hoo, boy, that could do wonders for our relations with the Government of Fiji. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:40:55 EDT From: Jim Tierney Subject: Re: Photos Up Ric---Nice photos....... I am sure that when you get a better view of #5- it will be easier to determine the a/c in the picture.......... Even I cant do much with what is shown.......I guess that most likely it is a PBY.. Makes sense based on the facts you have......... LTM---- Jim Tierney ************************************************************************* From Ric Yeah, I'm a lot more interested in the stuff on the reef in Photos 1 and 3 and whether we can find it in Photos 2 and 4. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:46:32 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Norwich City/Reef Debris If I recall correctly (I'm on the road without the necessary reference), in "Of Islands and Men" Harry Maude mentions shooting sharks with pistols off the wreck of the Norwich City. Sharks, especially of the common garden variety, wouldn't deter a skillful Gilbertese fisherman, however, especially fishing on a rising or falling tide on the reef edge -- a VERY productive habitat, especially around the wreck. LTM (who doesn't personally approve of shooting sharks) Tom King ************************************************************************** From Ric The Gilbertese are not at all intimidated by ol' Bakoa (pronounced BAKwa). The consider it great fun to grab a shark by the tail and lop it off with a machete. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:52:23 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: Norwich City/Reef Debris > From Don Neumann > > Unfortunately, 62 years later, it's almost impossible to reconstruct the > factual scenario they were acutally faced with (one or both injured or > ill, shortage &/or lack of fresh water & food, the aircraft badly > damaged upon landing or destroyed by high/rough surf shortly > thereafter), so the best we can do is speculate what they _might_ have > done under various circumstances_we_might envision, with no degree of > certainty that is what they actually_did_ & of course we keep on looking > for the remains of the plane & the crew. (Certainly a tantalizing > combination of fascination & frustration!) I have wondering this for a while (and it is an unanswerable question), what physical condition they were in, at the time Lt. Lambrecht flew over. As you said it is an unknown factor, but it could explain why they were not visible on the fly over. Thanks for the fishing information, I have learn a lot of useful information on this list, I consider that among it. Regards. Warren Lambing ************************************************************************** From Ric As we know from personal experience, you don't have to be incapacitated to miss an airplane flying over Niku. If you're back in the bush at all you can't see the sky and the ambient noise of wind and surf masks the sound until the plane is very close. Then it can easily take ten or fifteen minutes to fight your way out to the beach even if you're in a hurry. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:45:44 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Photos I notice debris from the Norwich City on the reef in one of the photos. Will you elaborate a little more on what type of debris this is. Where did it come from on the ship? Were there big, or heavy items up on the shoreline in the trees? Was there a specific pattern to the debris field? Was any ship debris found anywhere else on the island? Now far to Starboard and Port was debris found? I think you mentioned something about this in the last expedition report. I also think one team member said he explored the wreck in detail on the last trip. Thanks, Don J. ************************************************************************** From Ric There is now, right at the edge of the beach probably an eighth of a mile southeast of the ship, a section of iron hull plating about 15 feet long by maybe 6 feet wide that must weigh at least a ton. The biggest pieces of debris I've seen actually up in the treeline weigh, I would guess, on the order of several hundred pounds. The pieces of debris you can see on the reef in Photo #5, #6, and #7 could easily weigh a ton or more each. Exactly where on the ship they came from is hard to tell untill we get a better look at them forensically. Look at Photo #2 and think of the ship as if it was sitting on the edge of a table with the stern hanging off the edge. The edge of the "table" is signified by the line of breakers. As you see, the ship is about half up on the reef and half off. As you can see from Photo #1, #2, and #4, there is little or no ship debris on the reef prior to Photo #5 which was taken in June 1941 after the stern had broken off the Norwich City. The pattern of wreckage distribution is especially apparent in Photo #5, #6, and #7. If we consider the bow of the ship to be 12 o'clock, you'll see that the wreckage is distributed shoreward almost exclusively between, say, 11:30 and 2 o'clock. This is entirely consistent with the storms out of the northwest and west between November and April (been there, done that). What is interesting is that there seems to be one anomalous object visible as a black dot in Photo #6 (June 1941) at about 10 o'clock which may have moved shoreward some by Photo #7 (January 1942). I wonder if it may be part of the stuff we see a little closer to the reef edge in Photo #1 (October 1937) and Photo #3 (December-February 1938). LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:27:04 EDT From: Shirley Subject: Post-Loss Radio Project & Skin Diver Can't wait to get started on the post-loss messages chronology. Nice cover on November Skin Diver mag. Article isn't too bad either. I'll bet there are some really neat things to see on/under the reef. LTM Shirley 2299 *************************************************************************** From Ric Shirley and four other TIGHAR members: Jon Greenberg 2047 , Rob Hammet 2319S, and Bill Moffet 2156; with Jim Thompson 2185 as Team Leader are about to get started on a project that will pull all of the reported post-loss radio signals out from among the 3,000+ official government radio messages contained on the Research CD. We'll then database them here so that they can be examined and evaluated for patterns that may not have been previously apparent. In a separate project Bob Brandenburg 2286 is evaluating both the inflight and post-loss transmissions from the aircraft using computer modeling of the radio system and environmental factors. As Shirley mentioned, the cover article in the November issue of Skin Diver magazine is a very well-written account of our 1997 expedition by "Cat" Holloway who is on the Nai'a crew and is also TIGHAR member 2043. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:31:48 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Wire Recorders, one more time. Maybe the forum can stand one more off-topic post on this subject, just for the curiosity of it. In 1943 I was maintaining a bunch of wire recorders that were actually pretty good. Thinking we might not have much good old big-band stuff to listen to in Europe, we had some of it recorded. The quality was very nearly as good as the 78 RPM records of the day. If I remember correctly, these things were built by Western Electric. They were not exactly experimental units, but units that were ready to go into field service, which they did. They bounced around in half-tracks all over Europe. An interesting aspect of these things is that they were "cassette recorders and players." The "cassettes" weighed about 6 pounds each and were pretty big. But they were smaller than a bread-box! There was a splined drive shaft to couple to the motor in the record/playback unit and mating electrical connectors for the audio signal. The cassette contained two wire spools about 2 inches in diameter and, maybe 3 inches tall, and a level-winding mechanism - like a fishing reel. The record/playback head was part of the level-winder - the wire-guide slot with the magnetic gap to sense magnetic fluz induced by the wire. Of course, the wire was magnetized in a longitudinal direction - twist didn't matter. The wire did break occassionally. If you could avoid getting the wire all snarled up in hopeless fashion, it was very small and springy, you could repair the break. You would heat the ends with a match or lighter flame to anneal the hardened steel wire. Then you would tie a square knot and trim the ends close. It usually worked well. The knot would rotate to a favorable orientation and go right through the guide in the level-winder! Some of those repaired cassettes continued in service for many hours of running time. As mentioned here, we eventually found that the germans had some pretty good wire recorders too. I never saw evidence of magnetic tape recording anywhere I got to. The first magnetic tape recording I was aware of was experimental work at the MIT Radiation Lab. shortly after WWII. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:19:03 EDT From: Monty Subject: Photos and Emily interview It has been a long time since I have been on the Forum, so please excuse me if I print some things that have already been covered. But I find the recent photos and the Emily interview very interesting. The witness accounts of aircraft wreckage on the northwest side of the island near the ship wreck, leads me to believe that they contain some truth. I believe that location is where Earhart and Noonan would want to be,mainly because north or northwest is where they would expect ships searching for them to come from. Now that the wreckage has been placed near the reef and breakers a good distance from the beech, it helps to clear up some doubts I had about the search planes not seeing it. I believe it is several little things that add up to not sighting the aircraft by the planes from the USS Colorado. First, evidently it was hightide. when the search was conducted. Their eyes would be mostly on the beech. Lambrecht's report seemed to imply that he thought most likely if Earhart landed on this island it would be in the lagoon. Plus the white breakers could contribute to making it hard to see the wreckage. Also the search planes themselves, You have to look over the side to look down, the lower wing blocks some of the view especially for the man in front, Even sight of the shipwreck could of distracted their eyes to contribute to over seeing the visiable parts of the aircraft, and at hightide I don't think they would expect to see any airplane out near the reef anyway. I do have a few questions about finding aircraft pieces today, after over 60 years. I understand that the reef is a coral reef , coral would cover things up some. Is there a lot of sand out on the Island side of the reef where pieces could be buried? Just one more question, I noticed in one of the photos that the reefflat seemed to slope down from the beech to the reef at what looked like a pretty good angle. Could this slope have made landing an airpllane more difficult? Thank you Monty 2224 ************************************************************************** From Ric There is little or no new coral growth on the reef flat. Norwich City debris is not coral encrusted. There is no noticable slope to the reef flat from the beach to the ocean. The primary factor in whether a landing a could be made would be the surface of the reef itself. in some places, particulary in toward shore, it is very rough and pitted. Any attempted landing there would end in disaster. Out near the breakers there are stretches that dry at low tide and are sufficiently smooth and free of depressions to allow a safe landing in an airplane with big tires like the Electra. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:37:39 EDT From: Dustmiss Subject: Re: News from the University of Wyoming It was suggested that Amelia might have told Gene Vidal in a letter of a "Plan B" she would use in case she did not find Howland Island. And it was suggested by Jerry Hamilton in connection with the Nooan Project that I get in touch with the University of Wyoming because they have a collection of Gene Vidal's papers and the letters and the "Plan B" letter might be located in Box 19. I got in touch with Dan in the Collections Department at the University of Wyoming and requested letters between Gene and Amelia and Gene and George Putnam. Dan and the University folks have been nothing but wonderful in their help with this and it is I who have been very slow in getting it together and getting it to the FORUM. However, as it turns out that none of the 15 pieces of correspondence I got mentioned any thing about a "plan b", There is one letter in box 19 that Dan from the University told me is missing from the collection - but he did not know the contents of the missing letter and as it turns out was written to Gene in June of 1936 which might be too soon for Amelia to be thinking about a "Plan B", since she did not receive the Electra until July of 1936 In order of the date, I will give a short description of each correspondence. 1 - Undated - A handwritten letter from Amelia to Gene thanking him for a present and wanting to know if Gene was going to pay her a visit any time soon. 2 - Undated - A handwritten letter from Amelia to Gene saying how happy she was to speak to Gene but sorry he did not let her wish him a happy birthday. 3 - Undated - A handwritten letter from Amelia to Gene from the Biochemical Laboratories in Los Angeles telling Gene she was leaving L.A. on the 21st. 4 - Date 11/28/30 - Memo to Amelia from Gene regarding an information update regarding the Airline Transcontinental Air Transport. 5 - Date 02/01/31 - Memo to Amelia from Gene detailing duties of the personnel of Transcontinental Air Transport, stating Amelia's duties as V.P. of Public Relations. 6 - Date 05/25/35 - Telegram - Western Union - to Gene from the Mexican Consul expressing happiness that Gene will be at a dinner for Amelia. 7 & 8 - 06/02/35 - Two N.Y. newspaper articles about Amelia being the first woman to jump from a parachute training device jump platform. 9 - Date - 05/08/36 - Letter from Amelia to Gene - Its contents have been cited in a few Earhart Biographies - It is regarding Amelia recommending pilot Blanche Noyes as a possible employee for the Air Marking Program. 10 - Date - 06/01/36 - Letter from Gene to Amelia regarding the feasability of having hangars for large airplanes and his asking her when her plane will be ready (presumably the Electra). 11 - Date - 07/28/36 - Day Letter from George Putnam to Gene stating that they have contacted Blanche Noyes about taking the job but have not heard anything yet. 12 - Date - 08/03/36 - Letter from George to Gene. George asks him if hard surface runways are being installed in the Navy Field at Honolulu. George asks Gene for the exact description of the new runways, total length of pavement, extra runways and the nature of the approaches and what the condition of the runways will be as of February. George says he hopes Gene will be able to get this information from the Navy Department. 13 - Date - 08/11/36 - Letter from George to Gene saying that he had a pleasant meeting with Bendix on 08/10/36 and a had a meeting with mutual friend Harvard lawyer, George Leisure. 14 - Date - 10/08/36 - Day Letter from George to Gene "Colonel Johnson asked me tell you that reply is being held up for Mulligan's return. He is due back today. Admiral Cook visit satisfactory for 14th. He is leaving town after that." 15 - Date - 11/04/36 - Letter from George to Gene - Letter stating that Amelia and he will be in Newark next week to meet with Admiral Sellers. I will be contacting the University of Wyoming again and get another batch of letters - this time I think I will ask for the correspondane from Gene to any of his relatives. Cheerio - and LTM - (who would send her children to the University of Wyoming, if she could and never leaves home without a Plan B) *************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks. Very interesting. It has often been alleged (mostly by Vidal's insufferable son Gore) that Gene and Amelia were lovers. It's off-topic for our investigation and, even if true, perfectly within the bounds of AE's prenuptial agreement (more like a notification) with Putnam, but the letters you mention don't sound like anything more than a friendship. What was your impression from reading the letters? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:56:05 EDT From: Bill Moffett Subject: Re. Antiques Roadshow Think AR last Friday nite here showed the chronometer-in-its-box we've been looking for. The box is rosewood, brass bound, a cube of about 6 inches on each side. The lid, perhaps 3/4" deep, lifts up to reveal the clock face. With the lid up, 2 boxes remain. A key must be used to open the uppermost section which when lifted reveals the clock mounted in gimbals (to keep it level as the ship pitches & rolls). This mounting can be secured for transporting or released for use aboard ship. With both the lid and the upper section open, the clock expert/appraiser, Gordon Converse, placed one hand over the clock face & with the other inverted it, allowing the case to be lifted off the clock. Presumably this would only be done to service the clock. The ship captain/navigator would keep it in its gimbal mounting, opening only the lid and upper section. As to marks: the upper section bears a round plate, probably brass and perhaps with an enameled face (hard to tell) about 1-1/2 inch in diameter upon which is engraved "A. Johannsen, London", which is attached with screws at 12 and 6 o'clock positions on the plate. Mr. Converse stated Johannsen was the maker and it was made "for the Admiralty" between 1860 and 1890, but probably after 1870. The lower section also has a round brass plate about an inch in diameter engraved "1570". The two plates appear to be similar and were likely placed there by the manufacturer. [One could speculate :-) that this was the fifteenth chronometer produced by Johannsen in 1870.] There were no other noticeable marks or numbers on the box as shown. The owner was simply addressed as "Cathy" and her statement of provenance said the clock was purchased at auction locally, presumably Cincinnati, around 1970 by an uncle, now deceased, and had been in her husband's possession since. Not much help to us even if we could obtain her name and address from AR. - I will contact Mr. Converse again to ask if Johannsen is still in business (Quite unlikely, I fear.) Vern, if you'll Email your address, I'll send you the tape. One thing bothers me: Kabumpo's earlier postings list the number as 8070. This is not what I see. Wonder if there were two chronometers at AR in Cinti.? As I said earlier Mr. Converse told me he puts no particular significance to numbers on such boxes. LTM Bill Moffet #2156 *************************************************************************** From Ric Good work Bill! Perseverance pays off. This is really quite interesting, not for the chronometer, (I agree with Bill. It's of little interest to us.) but for the anecdotal process that brought it to our attention. Charlie Sivert saw it first and remembered a stenciled "3400" or "3100" on the case, which launched our search for the show. Then Kabumpo saw the show and said that the number stenciled on the case was "8070." As it turns out, there is no number stenciled on the case but a "1570" engraved on a brass plate. Now - I know Charlie Sivert and he is a sharp guy with a good eye for detail. I have no reason to think that Kabumpo is any less attentive. And yet....... LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:12:01 EDT From: Dave Porter Subject: photos Great job on the Forensic Imaging Report. In photo 4 though, I can't even seem to find the Norwich City. I can see the small dip in the shoreline, and the area where the shoreline falls away into the lagoon passage, and I know that the ship is between those two features, but I can't see it in photo 4. Am I doing something wrong? (From Ric You've got to hold your mouth just right. The Norwich City is that very narrow white slash running across the surf line. I know that it looks too narrow, but that's it. What's really neat is, if you have a dense scan of this photo and you "emboss" the reef area in Adobe Photoshop 5.0, you get what looks like a fan-shaped debris field running southeastward over the reef from a point near the breaker line just north of the shipwreck. I'm hoping that Jeff Glickman at Photoek will be able to tell us whether that's just an illusion or not.) Also, where on the website is the "Lambrecht photo"--maybe that isn't the name-- the aerial shot of Gardner with the incorrect directional arrow? Typing "Gardner Island Lambrecht Photo" into the search engine didn't bring it up. (From Ric It's a Document of the Week. Go to http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Documents/Documents_index.html) I've gone back to the Niku map on the website, and I think I'm up on my Niku geography, so is the following correct? 1. The Norwich City wreck is across the lagoon passage (and NW) from the P.I.S.S village. 2. The Norwich City debris field runs (SSE)across the reef flat towards the lagoon passage, and roughly towards the village. 3. The area in question currently is on the opposite side (N) of the Norwich from the village. (From Ric That is correct.) Finally, did the Norwich City memorial plaque get installed on the recent expedition? (From Ric No, there wasn't time to get it made before the trip. Next time.) Thanks, and LTM, Dave Porter, 2288 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:53:10 EDT From: Michael Real Subject: NOONAN'S NAVIGATION METHODS There has been constant speculation over the last few months, about the methods that NOONAN might have set-up on his PAN AM flights in order to establish a system that he might have used on the A.E. flight. TOM VAN HARE mentioned that he was investigating this aspect by utilising PAN AM archives and interviews with PAN AM personnel ; but , TOM, I am confused as to what you are in fact pursuing and what is required by the FORUM, when, in a response to some inputs , you questioned whether we were heading for another interminable discussion on NOONAN'S techniques .To advance the search we should examine all avenues within the guidelines set-up recently by management and this includes the evaluation of any sound alternative hypothesis. The request for information on GATTY to clarify the NOONAN link , was obviously also made in order to identify navigation techniques as well as understand his behavioural patterns , his employment details at PAN AM and how he was introduced to A.E., and as well as trying to solve the sextant problem. Therefore , by corollary, the navigation techniques should be open for debate. To this end , I offer the following aditional information which has so far not been quoted : In his book ," FLYING THE OCEANS: a Pilot's story of PAN AM 1935-1955 " by Horace Brock , he describes that the WAKE leg of the CHINA CLIPPER run was the most difficult, especially when considering the fact that radio direction finding was notoriously unreliable. Noonan navigated in earnest on this leg, putting into practice the techniques that he had set up after conferring with GATTY. One of the methods GATTY introduced was the 'THEORY OF DELIBERATE ERROR " which CHICHESTER had developed for his TRANS-TASMAN flights. (If you'd like a map showing CHICHESTER's method that he used for his aerial crossing of the TASMAN SEA in 1931 contact Michael Real directly at mreal@postoffice.sandybay.utas.edu.au) This was a standby procedure used to locate WAKE ISLAND , and BROCK goes on to say: ************************************************** " If we had serious doubts about our position, we would get a sunline when the sun was low in the sky in the late afternoon, as we were nearing WAKE, and then advance the line to have it run through WAKE on the chart. Then we would make a definite turn to the north or south and dead reckon up to the line , so to be reasonably sure we were either north or south of WAKE. Then we would turn to fly down the line till we made landfall. It was sometimes nerve-wracking. Radio bearings would have made it all so easy - had good ones been obtainable. Oten they were not. " ******************************************* ...........MUSICK and Captain R.O.D. SULLIVAN (FIRST OFFICER) followed PAN AM routine of sticking to the course that NOONAN had clipped to the instrument panel .(these instructions on small pieces of paper approximately 40 millimetres x 60 millimetres square can be clearly seen clasped in a clip between the gyro compass and the artificial horizon in a NASM photograph. No matter what changes in the sea colour or shadows they might observe, the rules were explicit not to deviate from the compass heading until someone made a positive identification of the objective in sight. *************************************************** On that first CHINA CLIPPER flight to MANILA, NOONAN took seven celestial observations and the radio log recorded forty-one radio direction bearings taken on that first leg to HONOLULU; it is clear from the evidence that NOONAN did in fact have a contingency plan on these flights should he fail to locate the destination with radio aids. As has been previously discussed, NOONAN used this offset method only when required on these PAN AM flights, and the radio logs from the A.E. flight can be interpreted with more than a reasonable amount of certainty that he did not use this method on that last fateful morning. Until the wreckage is found , we can only examine all the current available information on their particular methods of flying and navigating and marry this to an examination of their mental characteristics when placed in such a stressful predicament to allow us to arrive at the best fitting scenario as to whether they circled for a lengthy period or whether they decisively headed for the PHOENIX ISLANDS immediately on establishing that they were lost. I can see no reason why the "CIRCLING" scenario married to the later "running NORTH/SOUTH "is not acceptable as a sound interpretation of their radio transmissions, and of what probably happened when they arrived in the vicinity of HOWLAND: realising that they were near but unable to locate the island, most pilots would circle in ever increasing box patterns, searching for the island while attempting to obtain a radio fix , and , failing this, having arrived at HOWLAND without an offset, would logically turn NORTH and follow the position line for a reasonable time , then turn left for a reasonable time before turning south and following the 157 BEARING .(They knew that by keeping West of the position line through HOWLAND would give them a better chance of locating one of the PHOENIX islands if their fuel lasted the distance) Their contingency plan for an emergency landing in the PHOENIX ISLANDS would only have been considered as just that, a last resort to head for when all else failed , regardless of remaining fuel, as they had not located HOWLAND, and would have had serious doubts about locating the spread - out PHOENIX ISLANDS; they knew that at least they had a ship in close proximity which would search for, and hopefully locate them if they did ditch after failing to obtain a radio fix . They also knew that BAKER ISLAND was close by , which they must have searched for as well on their way south . Given these facts, most pilots would have hung about in the vicinity of HOWLAND and BAKER hoping to succeed with radio information for as long as they dared , and we also have to definitely consider seriously the more likely ' safe option ' decision that a woman pilot would exercise given the circumstances. I am certain that NOONAN was well aware that KINGSFORD SMITH used the Phoenix Islands as an emergency landing area for both of his TRANS -PACIFIC flights , and succeeded in locating them on each occasion, flying directly over ENDERBURY ISLAND at night as planned on the first EAST-WEST CROSSING as witnessed by the Navy ship , SOMONA, in 1928 , and easily locating CANTON island on his 1934 WEST-EAST crossing in the single-engined Lockheed Altair. ******************************* During the HOAX discussions by FORUM members, people have wondered about the profusion and proliferation of hoax calls and about the apparent dearth of emergency radio calls as well as radio calls from A.E. devoid of any urgency. I have wondered why these particular scenarios seem to be unique to this particular flight, and do not seem to exist for any of the other flights which ended in similar circumstances during that period. I have so far been unable to locate references of any kind pertaining to hoax calls or to inadequate radio messages (when aeroplanes were fitted with radios that were functional ) appearing in the accounts of four major disappearances: (a) KINGSFORD SMITH and ULM lost for 13 days in the outback of Western Australia in 1929 on their way to ENGLAND , which resulted in the disappearance and death of his previous partner , ANDERSON in the TANAMI DESERT who was searching for him; (b) The DOLE race of 1927 to Hawaii in which four aeroplanes and their crews were never seen again ; (c) The loss of ULM and his crew between Oakland and Hawaii in the Airspeed Envoy in 1934 on their way to AUSTRALIA ; while unable to apparently receive, they transmitted a constant stream of radio messages as to their position , their headings, and fuel status right up to the point of impact. They were never seen again after a massive, failed air and sea search of a similar size to the one launched to find A.E. - 23 ships including submarines and minelayers searched with 18 aircraft an area of 10O OOO SQUARE MILES . This particular disappearance is interesting when comparing the last radio transmissions with those of the A.E.flight, and with respect to TOM VAN HARE'S posting in response to RC0941'S (rcsherm@worldnet.att.net) enquiry of January12, 1999 when discussing A. E.' s last transmissions. (d) The disappearance of KINGSFORD SMITH in 1935 in the ANDAMAN SEA. I have not been able to locate any newspaper reports or books describing hoax messages of any description for any of these other disappearances. The only messages which were transmitted and received was from ULM'S last flight. In his previous disappearance off the WEST AUSTRALIAN COAST they were able to receive but not transmit messages from their stranding on an isolated river mouth on a desolate coastline. In those days of radio infancy, how many people other than military or merchant navy personnel , would have had access to radios; how many would have been tuning in to the disaster; and then how many of these people would be inclined to partake in this ridiculous charade? And why did they not participate in a similar fashion when the other disappearances occurred? This aspect has been dealt with before on the forum when the reply to this sort of question was answered with comparisons of the 'UNI BOMBER" , etc. These comparisons are interesting and puzzling at the same time, and the authenticity of any hoax calls and the quantity of them must be considered in a similar manner to U.F.O. sightings and can only be wondered at. We all look forward with great anticipation to the new evaluation of these post-flight transmissions headed by Jim Thompson as posted today. REGARDS MICHAEL REAL *************************************************************************** From Ric I think that you raise some very good, and new to us, references to support your conclusion (which I share) that Noonan almost certainly did not use offset navigation on the Lae/Howland flight. The reason that, at least in my opinion, "CIRCLING" and "running NORTH/SOUTH " are not acceptable as sound interpretations of the radio transmissions is that a close inspection of copies of the original logs makes it clear that, unlike the rest of the messages, neither entry was a real-time notation of what was said but, rather, an after-the-fact attempted reconstruction of what was said. Whether or not either phrase makes sense or is what a given pilot "would do" is firmly in the realm of speculation. Your point about the lack of hoax messages associated with other famous disappearances is well taken and, again, new to our discussion. If I were going to defend the allegation that at least some of the post-loss Earhart messages were deliberate hoaxes I would point out that amateur radio transmitters were far more common in the U.S. of 1937 than you seem to think and that Amelia Earhart was far more famous among the American public than were Kingsford-Smith or Ulm. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:56:40 EDT From: George Nelson Subject: Re: Norwich City/Reef Debris When the A6 Intruder was taken out of service by the Navy there were many aircraft undergoing modification at the Grumman St Augustine plant. Rather than pay to move these aircraft to AZ they were loaded on a barge and taken off shore where they were dumped to form an artificial reef. George Nelson 0580 ************************************************************************* From Ric It's now fairly common to sink ships to create habitat for fish. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:00:27 EDT From: Art Carty Subject: Tides Since there have been definitive statements from folks who should know, I'll take it as a given that there is no way to determine the timing of high tides. There is a second component to the tide discussion that it should be possible to identify. The value of high and low tides varies over a three month period. The high tide where I live (coastal Maine) varies within a range of 7.1 feet to over 10.1 feet, with correspondine low tide values of -.7 feet to 2.0 feet, just in the month of September. In other months, the high tide value has been as high as 13 feet. There are no local geographic features which would influence these ranges and these ranges are before any storm action. It might be interesting to know the values of high and low tides from 7/1 through 7/5 since the high tide value could change by as much as 2 feet in four days. Would this be significant given the locatation of the "dot dash" figures in the photograph and the testimony that the wreckage was within the tidal range boundaries (covered by high tide and visible at low tide)? Would 2 feet be enough to cause whomever survived the landing to have to abandon the wreck, especially with even minimal wave action? I think the variations in tide values might be much more important than the actual timing of high tide. Anyone know how to compute this? LTM ( who hates getting her feet wet) Art Carty ************************************************************************** From Ric That would be interesting to know. We saw considerable variation in the height of the tides while we were there in July. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:49:12 EDT From: Art Carty Subject: Re: Tides Found some tide prediction software at http://www.stormy.ca/tides/html. Of course, Nikumaroro ain't there but Funafuti is (8 degrees 32 minutes S, 179 degrees 12 minutes E). Quite a ways off but, since I'm not real interested in the time of high tide but rather on their level, it may help. Short version: the value of high tide was increasing from 7/1 through 7/10, with the peak values on the afternoon of 7/9 and 7/10. On the morning of 7/9 (the day of the Lambrecht overflight), the tides were at or close to their maximum height. Please keep in mind that the low tides were at their lowest on the same days. Times and values for Funafuti are as follows: 7/1 4.2 feet @ 0910 local (GMT +12) 7/1 4.6 feet @ 2136 7/2 4.1 feet @ 1059 7/2 4.6 feet @ 2351 7/3 4.1 feet @ 1226 7/4 4.9 feet @ 0107 7/4 4.3 feet @ 1344 7/5 5.4 feet @ 0212 7/5 4.6 feet @ 1448 7/6 5.8 feet @ 0307 7/6 5.0 feet @ 1543 7/7 5.4 feet @ 0331 7/7 5.3 feet @ 1556 7/8 5.5 feet @ 0408 7/8 5.5 feet @ 1628 7/9 5.5 feet @ 0441 7/9 5.6 feet @ 1658 7/10 5.4 feet @ 0513 7/10 5.6 feet @ 1727 7/11 5.2 feet @ 0543 7/11 5.4 feet @ 1756 7/12 4.9 feet @ 0612 7/12 5.2 feet @ 1824 ************************************************************************** From Ric That pretty well matches our experience at Niku this past summer but how valid would it be for 1937? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:51:42 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Forensic imaging at Pearl Harbor This isn't really pertinent to Amelia and Fred, but since we have been talking about forensic imaging and seaplanes, I thought I would direct y'all to the latest (December 99) issue of "Naval History" magazine. One article is about a fella who did some forensic imaging on one of the most reproduced images of the Pearl Harbor attack, a photo taken from one of the Japanese aircraft during the torpedo attacks on battleship row. We've all seen this photo, dozens of times. But through image enhancement the fella has determined that the photo shows, in addition to aerial torpedoes in the water, a midget sub conning tower, and the wakes of two torpedoes it had just fired. For those of you not conversant in the PH attack, it has always been a point of controversy as to whether or not midget subs ever got into position to attack. Apparently this puzzle has been solved. The article explains fairly well the process of forensic imaging and computer enhancement. Quite interesting. Another article in the same mag is a brief photo-essay of various Navy ship-borne seaplanes of the 30s and 40s. Pictured are the Vought O2U-2 Corsair, Vought OS2U Kingfisher, and Curtiss SC Seahawk. Regards, Tom #2179 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:04:02 EDT From: Jim Kellen Subject: Sextant Boxes Has anyone gone through the Richter Library collection of Pan Am archives to see if there are any sextant boxes (perhaps numbered) appearing in the background in photographs taken in the 30's or any equipment numbering systems described in technical reports or equipment inventories? LTM, Jim Kellen ************************************************************************* From Ric The Pan Am collection has been looked at but not exhaustively. It's huge. We have one photo of somebody who looks an awful lot like Fred from the back working at the navigator's table aboard an M130 Clipper. On the table is what appears to be a case for a bubble octant but there is no number visible on the box. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:06:18 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: NOONAN'S NAVIGATION METHODS You make a good point. What little I have read on the history of radio in the U.S. (before Westinghouse tried to start a commercial radio station KDKA Pittsburgh in 1920 I know some will argue if that was the first commercial radio station) it was only Amateur radio broadcasters (and military), and as you say there were a lot in the 1930's, however how many hoax broadcast have you heard of in the early years of radio involving a search and rescue operation? As Ric said Amelia Earhart, was very well known and popular, for that matter she did tours, my mother who was born in 1915, (I am the youngest in case anyone takes a shot at my age, you will get fooled) remembers Amelia coming to her school in Pittsburgh Pa., so she was well known and liked. It is a good point, in the 1990's the odds are better (but still not great) that a hoax radio operator would try to get a kick out of messing up a search and rescue, but what would the odds be in a different time like the 1930's? Regards. Warren Lambing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:07:54 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: Comment on RDF Michael Real had a 'real' thought provoking analysis a couple hours ago. In it was a typical mention of 'trouble with and the unrealiability of RDF'. [radio direction finding] in aircraft. Lest it cast doubt on one of the greatest nav aids from the 1920's up to the era of GPS, some perspective is necessary. Radio receivers can usually receive stations at a far greater distance than the loop is able to discriminate an accurate, reliable direction. It is not uncommon at night to hear a 50kw broadcast station 1500 miles distant. The bearing, if it is at all reliable, will point to the great circle course [that is the path the radio waves took] and that can be 15 degrees away from what one might expect. Also reflected signals from a slightly different direction can affect a null. Distance often causes fades [just as one thought they had the bearing nailed down]. In a nut shell airborne RDF was an 'area nav aid'. Get in the area and the bird dog will get you to the airport, holding fix, or whatever, every time. Indispensible to precisely locate an island, a drop zone, or whatever, when one got within range; 25 to 200 miles depending on the power of the 'station'. RC 941 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:18:07 EDT From: Jerry Ross Subject: Radar Images of Nikumaroro(Gardner) One thing that might assist in "seeing" what is hidden by the vegetation on Nikumaroro is a radar scan of the area. As has been suggested before. I have done the web research to find the source for the images. You start here: http://edcimswww.cr.usgs.gov/pub/imswelcome/popup.html As a guest or registered user (it's free) you can set up a query for radar images of Nikumaroro (by Lat/Long for instance). My search generated many hits. I would love to follow up and do the necessary work to produce useable images for this group but I already have too many irons in the fire. Take the information for what it's worth and procede accordingly.. Jerry Ross *************************************************************************** From Ric Would somebody like to look into this and see if it's a promising avenue of investigation? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:40:10 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Inventory up The Luke Field inventory of the Electra is now up on the website as the latest Document of the Week at: http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Documents/Luke_Field.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:58:03 EDT From: Dustymiss Subject: Re: News from the University of Wyoming Do you mean was there any overt signs that Gene and Amelia were lovers in those letters? No. Did the letters imply a close friendship? Yes, I think so. Could there have been more to it given the content and feeling in the letters? Yes. However, if there was, either George had no jealous bones in his body (despite his agreeing to the prenup letter) or Amelia and Gene were real good at hiding their feelings, (which seems to go against the open and honest marriage she requested in the prenup. ) The reason I say these things is that in the last line of the August 3, 1936 letter from George to Gene, George says "Come out again and we will try more tennis" And in the letter dated August 11, 1936 from George to Gene says "When are you coming up for some more tennis?" And in the November 4, 1936 letter, George tells Gene they will be in Washington soon and George says "We hope you will be around to see us." Perhaps Gene and Amelia's relationship (if there was one) had cooled off by then. It appears that if they still were having a relationship in 1936, as I said, either George was truly okey with it or he was oblivious to it. Or is there a third choice? In none of the letters from George to Gene is there the least hint of animosity. Although strangely enough in George's book "Soaring Wings" she calls Gene "her friend Gene Vidal" not our friend Gene Vidal. So, just like so many other parts of Amelia's life the more answers you get the more questions there are to ask. Love to Mother (who is on Gore's side - and believes there was a love affair between Gene and Amelia. ) *************************************************************************** From Ric I guess part of the price of celebrity is having your love life debated. From our perspective it's off-topic except for assessing whether or not there may have been anything going on between AE and Fred (which there almost certainly was NOT). Just the same, it's an interesting aspect of Earhart's personality and one that's very difficult to get a handle on. About all you can say is that AE did anything she felt like doing and if you didn't like it - tough. Talk about off-topic -- have you considered that if the current Vice President's parents had shared Gene Vidal's taste in childrens' names we could now be talking about Gore Gore's chances as a presidential candidate? LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:49:47 EDT From: W3HNK Subject: Gore Gore And if Kitty Carlisle ever married Conway Twitty her name would have been: Kitty Twitty! ************************************************************************** From Ric I'll post three more of these and then we'll move on - so make 'em good. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:51:44 EDT From: Bob Brandenburg Subject: Electra Inventory Too bad Lt. Tites didn't inventory the installed radio and DF equipment. LTM, Bob ************************************************************************** From Ric No sh--. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:06:03 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Gore Gore Just a real quick one . . . If Rep. John Dingle (D. MI) died and his widow Debbie married the former mayor of Washington DC, Marion Berry, would she be known as Debbie Dingle-Berry? LTM, who is splitting a gut . . . Dennis McGee #0149CE ************************************************************************* From Ric I knew we could count on Dennis. Just two more before I shut this off. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:36:34 EDT From: Bill Moffet Subject: Re. Antiques Roadshow Hope this is my swan song on AR. Replay of the AR Cinti tape shows the number 8070 painted or printed on the face of the chronometer just above the second hand--nothing wrong with Kabumpo's eyes! Phone call to Gordon Converse determines his belief that A. Johannsen, London (England) is no longer in business. One of our British members might want to check further, but as AJ's numbering system does not seem to bear any relation to our sextant-box numbers, believe we can "close the door" on this one. LTM Bill Moffet #2156 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 15:42:43 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re. Antiques Roadshow (and Gore Gore) Before we completely close the door on the Antiques Roadshow box, it seems to me that at least it's indicated that people who made, purveyed, or owned instruments like sextants put 4-digit numbers on them, and maybe somewhere there's some indication of what kinds of numbering systems were used. Even if we can't get close to the particular number series that includes the box found on Niku, having an idea of the system of communication within which the numbers were put on the box could be helpful. Is there anything to be done with the AR chronometer that might take us toward an understanding of this system? LTM (whose clock is stopped) Tom King (who did not name his son Kong) ************************************************************************** From Ric That counts. I'm using it. One to go. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 07:26:31 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Nauru I seem to remember, but can't find data about arrangements for AE to fly towards Nauru Island, that they would keep the phospate mine lights on, and that some radio messages or some sort of confirmation was made that she passed in the vicinity with a position report or "lights in sight" report. Have searched FAQ's and Forum reports without luck. Help! ************************************************************************** From Ric Some years ago, a retired Pan Am employee named Paul Rafford noticed that, while in Lae, Earhart had received a message from Nauru in response to a request for weather reports from Nauru, Tarawa, and Rabaul. The message from Nauru read: NEW NARAU (sic) FIXED LIGHT LAT 0.32 S LONG 16.5 EAST FIVE THOUSAND CANDLEPOWER 5600 FEET ABOVE SEA LEVEL VISIBLE FROM SHIPS TO NAKED EYE AT 34 MILES STOP ALSO THERE WILL BE BRIGHT LIGHTING ALL NIGHT ON ISLAND FROM PHOSPHATE FIELD WORKINGS STOP WEATHER 8 AM BARO. 29.908 THERM 84 WIND SE 3 FINE BUT CLOUDY SEA SMOOTH TO MODERATE STOP PLEASE ADVISE TIME DEPARTURE AND ANY INFORMATION RE RADIO TRANSMISSION WITH TIMES. For some reason, Rafford took this to be conclusive evidence that Earhart intended to fly over Nauru. His brilliant deduction was first quoted in "Amelia Earhart: The Final Story" by Vince Loomis and Jeff Ethell (Random House, 1985) and has subsequently become part of the conspiracy folklore. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 07:44:36 EDT From: CRM Subject: would Noonan know the Norwich City This may have been asked in the past, and if so- sorry, but I was wondering if in fact Amelia and Fred were able to bring the plane down in sight of the Norwich City wreck, and Noonan was unhurt and functioning, would he have know what it was? Ie: "That's the ship that went aground in '29," and if so, would he have know he was off Gardner, (if he was unsure of their exact position) because of the wreckage? Thank you and LTM, CRM ************************************************************************** From Ric Good question. Lots of ships go aground every year. For Noonan to have recognized the name Norwich City (which was still visible on the bow at that time) he would have had to remember newspaper stories about the incident from 8 years before. I suppose it's possible but it doesn't seem very likely. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 07:52:19 EDT From: Monty Fowler Subject: Aluminum Debris Photos I know everyone's starting to get excited about photos showing what may or may not be in the water near the Norwich City wreck, but hasn't TIGHAR gone over that area with photo analysis in the past? In "The Castaway of Gardner Island," July 1997, there is some discussion about photo analysis of part of the shoreline and a debris field, by the redoubtable Jeff Glickman. Is that the same place. Monty Fowler, #2189 ************************************************************************ From Ric Not exactly. Glickman found evidence of what may be a few pieces (four, to be exact) of aluminum debris on the reef farther down toward Tatiman Passage. The area we're talking about now has never been subjected to forensic imaging examination. The scattered anomalies found farther "downstream" from the supposed site of the original wreck fit quite nicely with the current hypothesis. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:05:36 EDT From: Ty Sundstrom Subject: Re: Inventory up Document of the week- item#40 aircraft tie down kit., item #4 Pesco engine driven fuel pump, obviously a spare, all of the Pratt&Whitney Aircraft tools will be in the engine overhaul/parts manuals and most all other items can be found in an old "Air Associates" catalog of the correct vintage. Ty N.Sundstrom ************************************************************************* From Ric Yeah, I figured that #40 was a tie down kit of some kind. I was mostly curious about what a "driving rod" and what "mooring arrows" were. I got a fax from somebody with an ad off the web for a "resistance bulb" which seems to be a "resistance temperature detector." I assume that means electrical reisistance, but I still don't know what you'd use the thing for. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:16:00 EDT From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Collyrium I looked at the Electra Inventory page...A quick search of Collyrium on the Internet shows it is used as an eyewash... Two reference pages are: http://www.quick-aid.com/pages/eyewash.html http://www.rxmed.com/monographs/colly.html Patrick N. Robinson (# 2239) ************************************************************************** From Richard Johnson Collyrium is a trade name for " tetrahydrozoline hydrochloride". Other trade names are Malazine, Murine Plus, Optigene, Soothe, Tyzine, and Visine. It is used for minor eye irratation and allergies and for nasopharyngeal congestion of allergic of inflamatory origin. What we have is a bottle of eye drops. Richard Johnson ************************************************************************** From Ric Interesting. Eyedrops, sunglasses, "Air Traveller's" chewing gum, but no stomach soothers. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:27:54 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re. Antiques Roadshow Bill Moffet... Your diligence paid off! A very good job and an excellent description of what was to be seen. Although the chronometer seems to have no bearing on our quest to discover who was stencilling or handwriting 4-digit numbers on navigational instrument boxes, we had to check it out. Now we know there is no need to devote any effort to tracking down the owner of the chronometer. Our thanks to all who saw the show and were alert to notice that it was a navigational instrument with a 4-digit number and bring it to attention. It might have been important to our research. It may be of interest to some to mention that, according to my very limited reading on the subject, a chronometer is differentiated from a garden variety clock in that it is considerably more accurate because it has a variable lever device and a temperature compensated balance wheel. The variable lever regulates the power transmitted by the mainspring so that it remains essentially uniform as it unwinds. I was surprised to note, in Fred Noonan's writings, that chronometers came in wristwatch size in the 1930s and perhaps earlier. Rather a far cry from the elaborate gimbal mounted ship's chronometer seen on Antiques Roadshow! ************************************************************************** From Ric Good research. Perseverance paid off again. Negative results are still results. (We know. We've got lots of 'em.) Re chronometers: in the elaborate "navigator's station" originally set up in the Electra's cabin by Harry Manning and Paul Mantz there were reportedly three chronometers shock-mounted in the navigator's table. Francis "Fuzz" Furman who spent time with Noonan in Bandoeng, Java told me that Fred always carried his chronometer (singular) with him in his pocket and was obssesive about checking it's accuracy at any opportunity. In Chater's report of events in Lae he makes reference to Noonan's difficulty in getting an accurate time check for "the machine chronometer" (singular). LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:37:31 EDT From: Dave Porter Subject: Re: Gore Gore If female olympic skier Picabo Street made a sizable donation to a hospital, and they named the Intensive Care Unit in her honor, it would be the Picabo I.C.U. LTM, Dave Porter, 2288 ************************************************************************ From Ric Excellent! The polls are now officially closed on this ridiculous thread for whom I have no one to blame but myself. In order of appearance, our guests were: Gore Gore (by me) Kitty Twitty (by W3HNK) Rep. Dingle-Berry (by Dennis McGee) Kong King (by Tom of that ilk) and last but far from least, the Picabo I.C.U. (by Dave Porter) LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:40:43 EDT From: Michael Real Subject: CHICHESTER'S DELIBERATE ERROR METHOD In response to TOM VAN HARE's posting about the critical aspect of wind in THE DELIBERATE ERROR METHOD , as well as the constant speculation or reports about the person responsible for its adaption for aerial navigation , and its relevance to NOONAN'S last flight , I have an excerpt that will clarify its use and give people some idea of the true degree of difficulty involved : Chichester had made up his mind to be the first man to fly solo around the world, and his first leg was to fly the TASMAN SEA from NEW ZEALAND to AUSTRALIA. However, his MOTH did not have the range, so he decided to use a circuitous route via the tiny islands of NORFOLK and LORD HOWE . Though most aviation historians ignored CHICHESTER'S subsequent flight, this flight was to have a great bearing on future aerial navigation techniques. He was faced with the the huge problem of locating these microscopic islands after flying more than 500 miles over open sea . With no radio aids he was faced with flying a precomputed heading that allowed for the forecast wind. These reports were notoriously unreliable ,pilots being fortunate to maintain an accurate heading to within 2 degrees , and he estimated that an overall track error of 10 degrees was to be expected ,resulting in missing the islands fatally by at least 80 miles. His experiments with a marine sextant to teach himself navigation in a motor car driven at 50 miles an hour over bumpy roads to emulate flight , were unsuccessful until he came across a BRITISH naval textbook published in 1840 which gave him the clue to a new system of astronavigation from which he evolved a system of flying a curved path , based on the sun's position, to a point on the chart 80 miles abeam his destination. On arriving at the false point, having deliberately aimed well to one side of the island, he knew which way to turn down the precomputed position line joining the sun-shot, abeam(false)point and the island . This procedure was dubbed CHICHESTER'S THEORY OF DELIBERATE ERROR, and became a standard navigational technique . The flight was a formidable task in an aeroplane that cruised at 70 mph, and he reports his moments of terror: ***************************************** "I felt desperate at thinking of all the blunders of this kind I could make . However, I recovered; the work required extraordinary concentration .It had been easy enough in a car driven at 50 mph by someone else; in a seaplane it was at first difficult to concentrate enough while attending to the five instrument readings, maintaining a compass course , reducing the sun sight, and solving the spherical triangle involved. The 100 mph wind of the propeller slip-stream , which struck the top of my head above the windshield, made concentrating difficult; so did the pulsating roar from the open exhausts." ***************************************** Although he failed in his bid to solo first around the world in an aeroplane, he achieved being the first solo yachtsman to circumnavigate the globe at the age of 77 in 1967. During the war he was the head of the EMPIRE NAVIGATION SCHOOL in GREAT BTITAIN. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:49:00 EDT From: Dave Leuter Subject: Re: would Noonan know the Norwich City along that same line I wonder why the name "Norwich City" was never mentioned in any of the post loss radio messages? I would've, on the hopes that someone listening would recognize it and know something of the wreck and its location. Just two cents worth LTM (Who always saver her pennies) Dave Leuter ************************************************************************** From Ric Bear in mind that the vast majority of the alleged post-loss signals had no intelligible content but were merely "carrier wave" signals on Earhart's freqency. The voice messages reported by Hams which contain complete phrases are of very dubious origin. AE and Fred may have been sending out messages that said, "We're at Gardner island sitting right here on the reef just north of the grounded freighter Norwich City." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:50:54 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: AE, GP, & Gene Given GP's reputation (well earned) as being the consumate promoter & Gene Vidal's involvement with the Interior Department, along with his interest in promoting commercial aviation, would seem reason enough for Mr. Putnam to put any personal feelings aside to curry favor with Mr. Vidal. I also seem to remember, that at one point, the Roosevelt Administration was planning on dropping Mr. Vidal from the..."team"... & that Mrs. Putnam (AE) wrote an impassioned letter to the President..."demanding"... that Mr. Vidal be retained. Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:53:08 EDT From: Barb Norris Subject: Re: Collyrium For what it's worth, Collyrium was(is?) manufactured by Wyeth Labs. LTM (who says never put anything in your eye), Barb Norris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:54:40 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: COLLYRIUM Regarding the post crash inventory after Hawaii "ground-loop" incident, Collyrium is an eyewash: COLLYRIUM -- Charton Tetrahydrozoline - Glycerin Ophthalmic Astringent Supplied: Each mL of eye drops contains: tetrahydrozoline HCl 0.05% w/v and glycerin 1.25% w/v. Nonmedicinal ingredients: benzalkonium chloride, boric acid, edetate disodium and sodium borate. Plastic squeeze bottles of 15 mL. Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:14:08 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re. Antiques Roadshow Just as a matter of interest, we have the remains of what is almost certainly a nautical chronometer from village site on Niku (Artifact #s 2-4-V-17A&B); circular brass case with a plate on it identifying it as being made by Negretti & Zambra of London (They're still in existence, by the way). Presumably from the Norwich City, pretty big and clunky for aviation use. Full description will be in the 8th edition. LTM (who says keep track of the time) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:16:11 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Luke Field inventory: Fire extinguishers Anyone have any thoughts about the two Pyrene fire extinguishers on the Luke Field inventory? We found two fire extinguishers in the Niku village, brought one back (Artifact 2-4-V-100). I've cleaned it up and find it to be a rather handsome brass job; no sign of a serial number. Presumably from the Loran station, but the Pyrene Company still exists (but doesn't seem to have a web site), so I'm trying to track down information on what the extinguishers on the Electra might have looked like. Anybody know of an Extinguisher History Society? I'd be surprised if there wasn't one someplace. LTM (who says keep your chemicals dry) Tom King ************************************************************************** From Ric I wonder if a Pyrene fire extinguisher would float? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:19:49 EDT From: Phil Tanner Subject: Carrier waves Ric writes: >Bear in mind that the vast majority of the alleged post-loss signals had no >intelligible content but were merely "carrier wave" signals on Earhart's >freqency. Could a radio expert give a brief explanation for laypersons: Was Earhart's frequency widely published and was it for arranged use for individuals only, or could anyone say "I'll be broadcasting on frequency X" and go right ahead? Would the authorities look to boot unauthorized users off a particular frequency, as they might today with a pirate FM broadcaster? Does the repeated presence of a carrier wave imply an unsuccessful attempt to transmit something more meaningful? If so, does a high preponderance of carrier-wave-only observations tend to suggest a user in distress or at least with technical difficulties? LTM Phil Tanner 2276 ************************************************************************** From Ric Excellent questions, for which I'm sure we'll have some excellent answers. What say ye, radio gurus? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:40:18 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: The Mystery Solved About 4 p.m. yesterday I received, via UPS from Simon & Schuster publishers, a review copy of "Amelia Earhart - The Mystery Solved" by Elgen and Marie Long. Although not officially due for release until November 4, at least one TIGHAR member has ordred it from Amazon.com and has received confirmation that the book has been shipped. In the tiny world of Ameliana, this is an important book. Elgen Long and his wife Marie have long been the principal and most widely respected proponents of the theory that the Earhart/Noonan flight ran out of gas and crashed at sea in the general vicinity of Howland Island shortly after the last radio transmission heard by the Itasca at 08:43 local time. Unlike other recent books which are essentially biographies of Amelia and deal with the disappearance in one chapter at the end, the Long's book spends very little time on biographical issues and is primarily a study of the last flight. Although TIGHAR is investigating a different hypothesis, we need to pay close attention to "Amelia Earhart - The Mystery Solved" if only because it is the first published compilation of the information the Longs have assembled in 25 years of painstaking research. As the title suggests, the authors do not present their work as evidence in support of a theory. They assert, instead, that they have solved the mystery. All that remains to be done is to go out and pluck the virtually intact Electra from the ocean bottom. If anyone can present a convincing argument for crashed-and-sank and, in so doing, show that landed-at-Niku is an impossibility, the Long's should be able to do it. If, on the other hand, their work does not stand up to respectful, but careful, scrutiny - then the landed-at-Niku hypothesis remains viable (as does crashed-and sank). We therefore need to take a close look at the case presented by the Longs to see whether we should stop wasting our time and all go look for Jimmy Hoffa. Of course, I have not yet had time to read the entire book, but I have read the section in which the Longs present their proof that the aircraft ran out of fuel shortly after 08:43. I'll paraphrase their case in a separate posting for the forum's consideration, but I do recommend that you buy the book. We obviously can not put long direct quotations from the book up on our website and I'm sure we will be discussing various points of evidence in the weeks to come. Besides, Elgen and Marie have worked hard at this. I hope their book sells well. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:42:52 EDT From: Peter Boor Subject: forensic imaging I've lost track of my contacts, but if you ever get in touch with Dr. Paul MacCready here on the coast (about sponsorships) you might ask him for contacts within Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in the Image Processing Lab. JPL has done extensive work in this area to enhance lousy images from spacecraft (like finding Elvis on the moon), and has been used by the FBI for forensic work. I think the Lab Director is Ed Stone. I'm getting ready to retire, and if I ever get some names and numbers, I'll pass them on. They would be a good second opinion to Jeff. PMB. ************************************************************************** From Ric Good idea. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:00:41 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: The Smoking Gun Document From the press release accompanying "Amelia Earhart- The Mystery Solved." "The crucial piece of evidence at the heart of the Longs' investigation is a report written in 1937 by the general manager of Guinea Airways on Lae who observed the Lockheed Electra's last takeoff. This 'smoking gun' document - which was authenticated in 1995 and which had been missing for fifty years - corrects the flight data used to analyze the final, fatal leg of Earhart's round-the-world journey." From "Amelia Earhart - the Mystery Solved", page 232. "Until recently it wasn't possible to say conclusively why she ran out of gas. But now we know, thanks to Mr. Hugh Leggat, manager of communications for Placer Dome Inc....The report was found in 1992 by Mr. Leggat. It supplies the information needed to determine Earhart's airspeed during the flight, and thus, her fuel consumption." From "From Lae Into The Blue" an article by Hugh Leggat in Prospect, the corporate magazine of Placer Dome Inc., Volume 4, Number 2, June 1992. "The original letter, neatly typed on Guinea Airways Limited note paper, has been found, with the telegrams that requested it.....Today, foremost among the researchers is The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery (TIGHAR).... Placer Dome contacted TIGHAR in December 1991 about the the Earhart file in the company's storage...." It's not clear what is meant by the Chater report being "authenticated in 1995." We announced its discovery in TIGHAR Tracks Vol. 8, Nos. 1 &2 on March 12, 1992. The entire report is, of course, on the TIGHAR website at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Documents/Chater_Report.html According to the Longs, the crucial phrase in the Chater report is in a paragraph on page 8, the last page, where three progress reports from the aircraft, heard by the Lae radio operator, are described. This is how the paragraph reads: <> The Longs say: "Earhart reported, ar 0418 GCT, that she was flying at 140 knots (161.1 mph). An average of the forecast winds and actual reported winds aloft over the route was 26.5 mph. Earhart reported at 0718 GCT that the wind was 23 knots (26.5 mph). The distance from Lae to Howland Island, via the route they actually flew, was approximately 2, 573 miles and they took 19 hours and 12 minutes. Her average ground speed was 134 miles per hour. When the 26.5 mph headwind is added to the ground speed, her average true airspeed calculates to be 160.5 mph. According to data in the Lockheed 10 Flight Manual, with a headwind of 26.5 mph the correct true airspeed for maximum range is 160.5 mph. This is very close to the speed confirmed with her 0418 GCT message." The Longs say that, because the aircraft was fueled the day before and sat around in the sun all day on July 1st, "the 1,100 gallons on board were reduced by expansion and venting to an equivalent 1,092 gallons." They further say that, using Kelly Johnson's figures, those 1,092 gallons would have lasted 22 hours and 29 minutes had Earhart flown at the recommended 150 mph, but because she flew at 160.5 mph (thus increasing her ground speed against the 26.5 mph headwind 8.5 percent from 123.5 mph to 134 mph) she ran out of fuel 20 hours and 34 minutes into the flight because "it is a mathematical certainty that an 8.5 pecent increase in ground speed will result in an 8.5 percent increase in hourly fuel consumption." So that's the proof. Earhart ran out of gas because headwinds forced her to carry higher power settings which depleted her fuel more rapidly than anticipated. Points to consider: 1. Earhart's 0418 GCT report of "HEIGHT 7000 FEET SPEED 140 KNOTS" does not specify whether she means indicated airspeed (as the Longs allege), true airpseed, or ground speed. Indicated airspeed is read from the airspeed indicator. Earhart's instrument was a Pioneeer Model 354 (according to the original specs for c/n 1055) calbrated in miles per hour, not knots. True airspeed is indicated airspeed corrected for temperature and altitude. Neither figure is terribly useful in a position report. The meaningful figure is ground speed which, in this case, would almost certainly be calculated by Noonan in knots. So - the question is, did Earhart read 160 mph off her airspeed indicator and convert it to knots before sending her radio message or was she relaying ground speed information in knots given to her by Noonan? I don't know of any way to be sure. 2. The Longs conclusions rely upon the presence of an average headwind for the entire flight of 26.5 mph (23 knots), but Earhart never said she had a headwind of 26.5 mph. Three hours after she reported her "speed" as 140 knots she said "WIND 23 KNOTS" but said nothing about its direction. The Longs say that: "An average of the forecast winds and actual reported winds aloft over the route was 26.5 mph." Is that correct? There was one tentative forecast of surface winds along her route and one observation of winds aloft (see Chater Report, page 7). A forecast from Fleet Air Base, Pearl Harbor received in Lae just as the airplane was taking off and too late to reach the crew said: ACCURATE FORECAST DIFFICULT ACCOUNT LACK OF REPORTS YOUR VICINITY PERIOD CONDITIONS APPEAR GENERALLY AVERAGE OVER ROUTE NO MAJOR STORM APPARENTLY PARTLY CLOUDY WITH DANGEROUS LOCAL RAIN SQUALLS ABOUT 300 MILES EAST OF LAE AND SCATTERED HEAVY SHOWERS REMAINDER OF ROUTE PERIOD WINDS EAST SOUTH EAST ABOUT TWENTY FIVE KNOTS TO ONTARIO THEN EAST TO EAST NORTH EAST ABOUT 20 KNOTS TO HOWLAND and another report apparently from Nauru: BARO 29.898 THEMO 83 WIND EASTERLY 3 CLOUDY BUT FINE CLOUDS CI CI STR CU CUMI MOVING FROM EASTERLY DIRECTION SEA SMOOTH. . NARU 8 AM UPPER AIR OBSERVATION 2000 FEET NINETY DEGREES 14 MPH 4000 FEET NINETY DEGREES 12 MPH 7500 FEET NINETY DEGREES 24 MPH By the time Earhart got anywhere near Nauru that observation was about 12 hours old. I see no reliable way to determine what winds the flight actually encountered. From what I can see at this early stage in our assessment of the Longs' work, they have an interesting theory but it's based upon supposition and interpretation rather than hard facts. There is much, much more in the book that we'll need to consider. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:04:18 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Carrier waves >From Phil Tanner > >Ric writes: >>Bear in mind that the vast majority of the alleged post-loss signals had no >>intelligible content but were merely "carrier wave" signals on Earhart's >>freqency. Also, could the continuous carrier wave signals be accounted for this way: When more than one person is attempting to transmit on the same frequency at the same time they "jamb" each other. No transmission comes thru, only a "tone". So were a lot of the hams all trying to contact Amelia at the same time, hoping to be the first to contact her, thus jambing the airwaves, but accomplishing nothing, except to PREVENT Amelia from sending her position information? LTM -- Blue Skies, Dave Bush ************************************************************************* From Ric I can't think of any way to establish whether that may have happened except to note an absence of reports in the official record complaining of amateurs trying to contact Earhart. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:08:47 EDT From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Luke Field inventory: Fire extinguishers The brass fire extinguisher sounds like a soda-acid type (your old elementary school probably had several) Look for a little lead bottle near the top. ************************************************************************ From Tom King Ric says... I wonder if a Pyrene fire extinguisher would float? Maybe if filled with ping pong balls. For what it's worth, #2-4-V-100 is pretty heavy. I've now got a phone number for Pyrene... LTM (who doesn't think she'd float, either) Tom ************************************************************************* From Jerry Ross If you go to this URL: http://www.kidde.com/commsist.htm You will see that there are references to them being a subsidiary of Pyrene. And further investigation produces: Pyrene Corp 905-940-8080 130 Esna Park Dr Markham, ON Jerry Ross *********************************************************************** From cfjwe Pyrene is a trade name for carbon tetrachloride but I believe its use in fire extinguishers has been discontinued. The density of carbon tet is 1.594 g/cc, fresh water is 1.0, and sea water 1.?. Whether or not an extinguusher would float would depend upon how full of carbon tet it was, so it might float or it might not. I can't help any past this point. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:11:03 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: RESISTANCE BULB One possibility: A 'resistance bulb' in the exaust stack or collector ring, was part of the sensor(s) to operate the exaust gas analyzer that was used for setting the mixture control. Believe at one time, at least, she had that system installed. Such a gage would surely be important to insure the leanest safe mixture; best economy without damaging the engine. A spare sensor would be a small part well worth the effort to have. Being in the hot exaust is a rough enviroment. RC ************************************************************************** From Ric She did use a Cambridge Exahust Gas Analyzer to set mixture. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:12:51 EDT From: T Talbott Subject: Re Inventory - mooring kit >From Ric > > Yeah, I figured that #40 was a tie down kit of some kind. I was mostly > curious about what a "driving rod" and what "mooring arrows" were. The kits that i have used have a 4 foot cable attached to the arrow head. The driving rod is then attached to the end of the arrow head and driven about 3 feet in to the ground. The rod is then removed and the end of the cable is used to attach your tie-downs to secure your aircraft. The rod is then used over and over again while the arrow heads remain part of the landscape. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:54:07 EDT From: Jerry Ross Subject: Re: Luke Field inventory: Fire extinguishers And if my memory serves me correctly: Carbon tet on a hot cast-iron engine block produces phosgene gas(used in WWI). It killed a few people off before someone figured out what was happening. And therefore it is no longer used in fire extinguishers. Jerry Ross *************************************************************************** From Ric Uh oh. I see another what-really-happneded-to-Earhart theory coming. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:58:37 EDT From: Joe W3HNK Subject: Re: Carrier waves Any amateur to operate on those frequencies would be half out of his mind! They are not and were not in the range of frequencies allotted to "hams". Today I believe it would happen because of the changes of morality worldwide! Joe W3HNK ************************************************************************** From Ric Interesting thought, but generational moral comparisons are a bit beyond the scope of this forum. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:59:55 EDT From: Dennis Mcgee Subject: Team players You guys and gals amaze! I read the inventory of AE's 10E after the Luke AFB crash and, like you, wondered what some of that stuff was. That was yesterday. Today I learn Collyrium is eye wash; I now know what mooring rods, arrows etc are for; the secret of "resistor bulbs" is solved; and Pyrene fire extinguishers are no longer a mystery. Damn! I'm tossing out my World Book encyclopedia and staying tuned to good old T-I-G-H-A-R, 6210kcs on your radio dial (3105kcs at night, of course). Nice work. Really, nice work everyone! LTM, who's agog with wonder Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:08:38 EDT From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Luke Field inventory: Fire extinguishers Yes, carbon tetrachloride is toxic to the liver. I believe it was used in fire extinguishers to put out gasoline or grease fires (handy to have on an airplane). If you find the lead bottle, or a label saying "soda-acid" on the brass one, it isn't a Pyrene (carbon tet) extinguisher. Dan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:10:46 EDT From: Ty Sundstrom Subject: Mooring kit The driving rod is used to insert the mooring arrows into the ground. The driving rod would be screwed into the mooring arrows. The mooring arrows are actually steel wedges pointed on one end that would spread after they are driven into the ground which would provide the means of anchor. They work using the same principle as the points on an arrow head, which prevent removal via the opposite direction of entry i.e.; mooring"arrows". They remain in the ground after use and the mooring kit would usually contain several mooring arrows. Ty N. Sundstrom ************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Ty. Interesting system. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:16:51 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Radio waves I keep reading about "Earhart's frequencies" on various posts. It makes it sound like their was a frequency assigned to the Earhart plane. I could be wrong, but I don't think that was the case. I have read many World War II era crash reports, and I have discovered that there were a lot of common frequencies used. Some of the more common frequencies used were, 500 Kilocycles (kc), 3105 Kc, 6210 Kc, 4220 Kc and 7500 Kc. I'm sure there were a lot more. 500 Kc was an emergency frequency, much like 121.5 and 243.0 are today. To think that Earhart was the only one to use these frequencies would be a mistake. I believe any ship or airplane with a radio would have and use these same frequencies along with all the amateurs out there. With about three thousand messages heard on the "Earhart frequency" it's easy to believe that the plane had to be on land to transmit. Like today, they probably assigned certain frequencies for different purposes. Like 121.5 is emergency, or 121.7 is ground control and 121.0 is tower. They were not assigned to a specific aircraft, but rather to a specific situation. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans, but I think it would be better to say, instead of "Earhart's frequency", the frequency she was using at the time. And, understand that a lot of people could have been on that frequency at the same time. Now a question. Why was Earhart using eye drops? Did she have eye problems? Don J. ************************************************************************* From Ric I think some of our radio gurus can elucidate on frequency assignnment better than I can. I am not aware of any eye problem Earhart was experiencing. Remember that for the Hawaii/Howland flight there were two other people aboard the airplane. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:22:10 EDT From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Nautical antiques dealers Ric - I found this searching for a friend's web page - Lighthouse Marine & SOS in the USVI. The dealers listed might be a resource finding info on the sextant box. http://members.aol.com/nbrass/ezine.htm ************************************************************************** From Ric Yeah. Looks like a whole bunch of links to dealers in nautical memorabilia. Anybody want to see if any of these guys ever heard of stencilled numbers like 3500 on a sextant box? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:24:06 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Team players Yeah, we all learn a lot from Mother, don't we? All the tips re. Pyrene have led me to an e-mail address, and I hope to have good data on the kinds of extinguishers Earhart carried, soon. LTshe who knows all Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:03:02 EDT From: David Subject: Pyrene Corporation of Canada. Markham, Ontario you say? That's about a 45 minute drive north of Toronto. (Toronto, incidentally, is where our gal Amelia served as a nurse during WWI.) As luck would have it, I'll be driving right by Markham this weekend while enroute to visit some relatives. I doubt that the folks at the Pyrene Corp would be there on a Saturday, but if you'd like me to drop in for a visit to try to learn something for the forum, just say the words! (Perhaps a phone call first would also be helpful.) LTM, (who always checks her fire extinguishers) David :-) ************************************************************************** From Ric I think Tom King already has a line on Pyrene but if you have time and there's anyone around - what the heck. Generally speaking, current company employees have little or no knowledge of a company's history and former products, but you never know. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:21:24 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Inventory OK guys, the plot thickens. . . Somewhere, in some post about a year ago, there was a mention of a Box Kite. I don't remember in what context. It might have been a radio signal, or information we thought to be a hoax at the time. But, there was talk of some kind about a Box Kite. I think at the time of the posts, it was thought of as ridiculous, and nobody could figure out why they would have a kit on the Electra. And now we see the inventory and guess what is listed as item 28? I sure would like to know what was said about it back then. I'll bet it won't take long before someone on this forum finds that reference. Don J. (Waiting in eager anticipation) ************************************************************************** From Ric The best way to find former forum discussions is to review the Forum Highlights archive on the TIGHAR website at http://www.tighar.org/forum/ArchivedHighlights.html Highlights are edited but anything substantive should be there. If you want to review an unedited version, any forum suscriber can retreive and read the archived logs of previous forum postings as follows: The archives are kept as a monthly digest by LSoft (the list provider). The last several moinths are available. First, send an email to: listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com with the command: INDex earhartforum (that's all you have to put in the body of the message) You'll get back a list of all the archive files available. It will look like this: EARHARTFORUM LOG9905 LOG OWN 559,494 1999-05-31 08:34:51 EARHARTFORUM LOG9906 LOG OWN 279,902 1999-06-17 13:19:59 (Obviously, LOG9905 is the log for May 1999) Choose the one you want and send another email to listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com with the command: GET EARHARTFORUM LOG[whichever one you wanted] so if you wanted the log for May, your message would read: GET EARHARTFORUM LOG9905 Within a few minutes you'll get back a confirmation message, and a separate file with the log you wanted. They'll come as downloadable text files, too large for most email software. They'll open in any word processor. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:36:53 EDT From: Mike Everette Subject: Carrier Waves An easy explanation for the reason an alleged "post loss" radio signal may have been an unmodulated carrier wave is, the microphone cable may have failed. From much experience in two-way mobile radio communications, I can tell you that any kind of cable or cordage in a system is one of the first things to give trouble. Mic cords are among the most common failures, due to constant handling of the mic, yanking on the cord when it gets tangled with anything, or simply on account of loose connections in plugs (or broken plugs). Mic cables in those days were commonly made from stuff called "tinsel wire," which is almost like the consistency of aluminum foil. The advantage of this type wire is its flexibility. The disadvantages are (1) it is fragile, and (2) the stuff is very difficult to make a connection to, when repairing it... tinsel wire does not take solder well at all. Special crimp-type lugs must be used to repair this sort of cable. If these lugs are not used, the repair will not last long. If the lugs are improperly crimped, or the wrong tool used to make the crimp, the repair will fail soon. Suppose the audio wire in the mic cord was open, but the lead to the push-to-talk button was OK... the radio would still key up, but no voice modulation. This is a very likely scenario. I have seen it occur time and again in public-safety radio equipment. Perhaps AE and FN, IF they sent these signals, may not have known the transmitter wasn't modulating. And as for repairing mic cords: been there, done that, got the shirt in every style and color. Another possibility which would cause an unmodulated carrier: bad modulator tube (one type 6L6) in the transmitter; or a failed component in the audio circuit. And I agree with the gentleman who observed that a 1930s ham operator would be out of his mind to try operating on 3105/6210. These freqs are (and were then) well outside the ham radio bands. Amateur radio operators in the 30s had an extremely healthy respect for the FCC, which would have come down like an anvil on any ham who tried this... indeed, people of those times seem to have had a healthier respect for the law in general. While, thanks to Riley Hollingsworth, the FCC of today has once more acquired some enforcement teeth, its job is much more difficult due to the cynical, scofflaw attitude of our society. I'll get off my soapbox now. 73 88 to M (who always keeps her nose clean) Mike #2194 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:46:44 EDT From: Tom Subject: Re: Inventory - resistance bulb Ric wrote >I got a fax from somebody with an ad off the web for a "resistance bulb" >which seems to be a "resistance temperature detector." I assume that means >electrical reisistance, but I still don't know what you'd use the thing for. Resistance wire is used in your household toaster. When you apply voltage to the wire, it heats up and toasts your bread. The same type of wire can be used in a probe to measure temperature, but in this case, a constant current is passed through the wire, creating a contant voltage drop. Any change in ambient temperature adjacent to the probe will cause a concomitant change in voltage drop across the probe. This variation in voltage is measured by precision circuitry and displayed on a meter. If the circuit and the meter are calibrated correctly, an accurate indication of ambient temperature adjacent to the probe can be determined. Yes, this probe could have been part of the exhaust gas analyzer equipment, and I suspect this is what it was. A probe subjected to exhaust gas heat could be prone to failure, so a spare would be a good thing to have along. Just like the thermocouple in your gas water heater, it's bound to fail in time, after constant exposure to high heat. It could also have been simply an ambient temperature probe to measure air temp outside the aircraft. Did the 10E have an ambient temperature indicator? LTM (who was one cool cookie) Tom #2179 ************************************************************************** From Ric As far as I know it only had an OAT (Outside Air Temp.) gauge. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:50:40 EDT From: George Myers Subject: Chronometer or Barometer? >From Tom King > >Just as a matter of interest, we have the remains of what is almost certainly >a nautical chronometer from village site on Niku (Artifact #s 2-4-V-17A&B); >circular brass case with a plate on it identifying it as being made by >Negretti & Zambra of London (They're still in existence, by the way). >Presumably from the Norwich City, pretty big and clunky for aviation use. >Full description will be in the 8th edition. For a History of Negretti and Zambra see "Nineteenth Century Scientific Instruments" by Gerard L'E. Turner, University of California Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles, CA, 1983. The firm was responsible for the publication in 1868 of the important manual "A Treatise on Meteorological Instruments, Explanatory of Their Scientific Principles, Method of Construction and Practical Utility." Enrico Negretti came to England in 1830, aged 12, and was later apprenticed to an instrument maker. Later he took a partner, J. W. Zambra. In the Great Exhibition of 1851, the firm took the only Prize Medal for meteorological instruments as a group, according to Turner. Interestingly, in my research, a Guiseppe Tagliabue, prior to 1851, is in the South Street Seaport District of NYC, also in the business of barometers. Him and his family reside in the Woodlawn Cemetery, located in the Bronx, NY, where a likeness of his head with beard is preserved on an obelisk. George J. Myers, Jr. ************************************************************************** From Ric So you're saying that Negretti & Zambra made barometers but not chronometers? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:51:55 EDT From: Michael Real Subject: LUKE INVENTORY -ALUMINIUM DIRECTION BOMBS IT is interesting to note that she did carry a quantity of 7 of these bombs to be used for determining drift in daylight hours on this first flight , and as thought to be a possibility on her second flight as per an earlier posting. Three parachute flares, as well , were carried on this first flight. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:21:18 EDT From: Ron Reuther Subject: The Longs on TV Elgen and Marie Long will be on the TV show "Today" on the morning of November 3. They will make a presentation about their book and its conclusions at the Western Aerospace Museum, Oakland Airport on Saturday, November 6, 1999. Lunch is $15 for WAM members, $20 for non-members, and the program only is $10. Admission to the museum is included.Oakland was Amelia Earhart's departure point on her last flight and the Museum has a Lockheed 10-A on display. RSVP to the Museum at 510-638-7100, FAX 510-638-6539, oakairmuseum@juno.com. Ron Reuther ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:23:21 EDT From: Natko Katicic Subject: AEs eye problem Ric writes: >I am not aware of any eye problem Earhart was experiencing. Remember that >for the Hawaii/Howland flight there were two other people aboard the airplane. The interior of an unpressurized plane can be a pretty draughty evironment. The draught and staring at instruments or through the windshield looking for landmarks can well account for minor eye irritations or even a mild case of conjunctivitis in an otherwise healthy eye. Collyrium would bring instant relief in any case. LTM (who sometimes damns her contact lenses) natko. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:46:27 EDT From: Christian Subject: vibracorder mystery I made an online-request at the mannesmann-kienzle company as well, without knowing, other friends would do the same. Here is the answer, I received today. Ursprüngliche Nachricht: > Sehr geehrter Herr Böhnke, > eine kurze Recherche bei einem ehemaligen Mitarbeiter hat folgendes ergeben: > Die Firma Kienzle Apparate hat in der fraglichen Zeit einen Rüttelrekorder > für Flugzeuge entwickelt, aber nie gefertigt. Weder der Firmenname > "Ohmer-Kienzle" noch die Produktbezeichnung "Vibracorder" sind hier bekannt. > Wenn Sie über weitere Informationen verfügen (Abbildungen, techniches > Details etc.), könnten wir prüfen, ob es sich um ein Produkt der Firma > Kienzle handelt. Gerne stellen wir dann den Kontakt zu unserem > "Spezialisten" her. > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen > Mannesmann VDO AG > IC43LÖDrazenka Snajder > Tel.: 07721/67-2617 > Fax: 07721/67-2618 > e-mail: drazenka.snajder@de1.vdogrp.de Translated in short: The public relations office made a request to former employees which resulted in: The company Kienzle Apparate developed in those years a 'Ruettelrekorder' for planes, but it didn't go into production. Neither a Company named Ohmer-Kienzle nor a Product Vibracorder is known. If we would have further informations, they would invest further time into investigation. I thanked for their effords and forwarded our internet adress, so anyone interested might have a look. LTM, who knows how good it is to keep in touch with the retired employees Christian *************************************************************************** From Ric Oooookay, so how did a vibracorder that never went into production end up in NR16020? Is Ohmer-Kienzle perhaps a different company entirely? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:14:52 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: Carrier waves <> In case the way I worded this gets me into trouble (if it makes the list at all), I am referring (or meant to refer to the Spectrum) Shortwave in the 49 and 41 meter bands, hams in the 41 and 40 meter band. Here is a question to the group. I know today on AM on the commercial AM band you get more punch for you power on the lower end of the spectrum ( in another words you put out more distance for less power) Would that have apply with propagation at night for AE and FN (considering they are using AM mode), better range for less power on the lower frequency? Regards. Warren Lambing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:26:39 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: "Carrier Waves" Mike Everette wrote: >> And I agree with the gentleman who observed that a 1930s ham operator would be out of his mind to try operating on 3105/6210. These freqs are (and were then) well outside the ham radio bands. Amateur radio operators in the 30s had an extremely healthy respect for the FCC, which would have come down like an anvil on any ham who tried this... indeed, people of those times seem to have had a healthier respect for the law in general. While, thanks to Riley Hollingsworth, the FCC of today has once more acquired some enforcement teeth, its job is much more difficult due to the cynical, scofflaw attitude of our society.>> Which brings us back to the question, would some operator deliberately broadcast hoax messages to a search and rescue operation. I agree with these gentlemen, they had a healthy respect for the law and I believe they may have monitor the frequencies, but I doubt they would have broadcast false information. Regards. Warren ************************************************************************** From Ric Like I said, I really don't want to get into a discussion about the relative morality of various generations but anyone who thinks that the 1930s were a kinder, gentler, more "moral" time in American history should read up on the Lindbergh trial, Prohibition, the Ku Klux Klan, etc., etc. In the days, months and years following Earhart's disappearance George Putnam was frequently beset by people trying to perpetrate frauds and hoaxs. The good old days exist only in our mercifullly selective memory. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:31:15 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Pyrene Corporation of Canada. If I get anything from Pyrene today, I'll pass it on, and maybe David can follow up. I'll be more or less off-line for the next few days, consorting with some wierd organization up in Wilmington. Meanwhile, I'll look for that lead thing.... LTM Tom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:34:20 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: vibracorder mystery >>Ric wrote... Oooookay, so how did a vibracorder that never went into production end up in NR16020? Is Ohmer-Kienzle perhaps a different company entirely?>> An early test model, placed on board a high profile round-the-world flight and lost when the airplane disappeared? LTM (who knows that lost aircraft may not bode well for the prototype products they carry) william 2243 *************************************************************************** From Ric A previously undiscovered connection between Earhart and experimental projects of the budding Luftwaffe? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:52:46 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: Box kite Don Jordan writes: << Somewhere, in some post about a year ago, there was a mention of a Box Kite.>> As I recall, it was part of a discussion about how to rig a new radio antenna. LTM, Russ ************************************************************************* From Ric New York Herald Tribune, March 7, 1937 article entitled "Complete Navigation Room Ready to Guide Miss Earhart" Excerpt: (describing emergency equipment) "Likewise a Very pistol for firing distress signals, flares that ignite on the surface of the water, and, as she says, 'a very orange orange kite. 'If we sit down somewhere in the Pacific and stay afloat, I'd like to be noticed', says Miss Earhart." No emergency transmitter. No antenna wire. I wonder if the "flares that ignite on the surface of the water" are the "aircraft water lights" (Item 30) in the inventory? LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:54:10 EDT From: Mark Turner Subject: Pyrene Fire Extinguisher Pyrene was one of several companies that produced Liquid Carbon Tetrachloride fire extinguishers. They typically were a brass cylinder 3 to 3.5 inches in diameter, and 12 to 15 inches long overall. One end had a nozzle and the other end had a "T" handle connected to an internal piston pump and a valve that sealed the nozzle when the unit was in its bracket. This end also had a Hex shaped screw plug for filling the unit with liquid carbon tetrachloride. To use it you would turn the "T" handle 90 degrees to un-lock it from its stored position, withdraw the handle to the rear to fill the pump with liquid, then aim the nozzle at the base of the fire, and squirt the liquid at the fire. Repeat the pumping action until the fire was successfully extinguished, or the unit was empty. These units typically had an embossed brass plate on the side of the barrel that gave the manufacturers name, address, and essentially the same instructions detailed here. This type of extinguisher was also used by the US military in both aircraft and armored vehicles. They were eventually removed from service and obsoleted because Carbon Tetrachloride vapors are toxic by themselves, and when they are vaporized in a flame, can generate small amounts of Phosgene gas. People were injured by these units if they became trapped in high concentrations of the "breakdown product". I have and old empty unit somewhere at home and I will attempt to locate it and photograph it for reference purposes. Note that Carbon Tetrachloride is a Halogen compound and this type of vaporizing liquid extinguishent was replaced by Halon 1211 and Halon 1301, which have much lower toxicity. These Halogen compounds have now been replaced by new materials (FM200, and FE241) because of their detrimental effect on the Ozone layer. I am under the impression that I have seen a picture of the inside of the Electra 10E with this type of extinguisher mounted to a bulkhead. Mark Turner ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:11:56 EDT From: Mark Prange Subject: The Smoking Gun Document >"it is a mathematical certainty that an 8.5 pecent increase in ground speed >will result in an 8.5 percent increase in hourly fuel consumption." Rather, a percent increase in hourly fuel consumption would be about proportional to a percent increase in TRUE AIRSPEED. So, if the TAS were 160.5 mph instead of 150 mph, the increase in hourly fuel consumption would be about 7% = (160.5/150), regardless of the percent change in groundspeed. Ground speed is, however, relevant to calcuLation of miles per gallon and range. *************************************************************************** From Ric That bothered me too. Although it's a mathematical certainty that any time I try to do anything mathematical I'll screw it up, it just didn't seem right that there would be a direct one to one correlation between those two values. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:14:06 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: "Carrier Waves" Regarding carrier waves and AE post-loss messages: as far as I have been able to determine, there was only one message at 3105 ( or 6210, for that matter) kHz that had any useful information: the 281 North Howland message. Most other messages either do not state a frequency or were tracked to completely different frequencies from what AE was able to use. When people were listening, particularly at night, to 3105 and 6210 kHz, I suspect many of them were listening to either frequencies close to those or from far-away stations that may have propagated well beyond normal limits due to atmospheric skipping. Since 3105 kHz at the time was the international aviation broadcast "distress" frequency, long-distance skips could account for a lot of what was "heard", particularly as carrier waves. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:18:46 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Pyrene Fire Extinguisher That's great, Mark, and your description pretty precisely describes Artifact # 2-4-V-100. Of course, I imagine the Loran Station was equipped with this kind of extinguisher. In any event, I'll take it to TIGHAR Central tomorrow and maybe we can put a picture of it up on the web site. LTM (who loves a good, clear description) Tom King ************************************************************************** From Ric Well, well, well....Just being wildly optimistic for a moment, mightn't the Loran station have been equipped with larger units than an airplane? Do any of our Loran veterans rememeber anything about the fire extinguishers they had? Would a Coast Guard fire extinguisher look just like a commerical unit or would it have gummint markings? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:23:55 EDT From: Geoffrey Noles Subject: Radio Hoax, AE song, Hires pic request >It is a good point, in the 1990's the odds are better (but >still not great) that a hoax radio operator would try to get a kick out of >messing up a search and rescue, but what would the odds be in a different >time like the 1930's? >Regards. > >Warren Lambing Actually, I think that it would be more likely that radio shenanigans would occur back in radio's early days. The decline of modern society notwithstanding, there are more rules governing radio than there once were and it is difficult to obtain a transmitter capable of interfering with modern emergency frequencies, with the possible exception of Marine Band radios. Many years ago, transmitters using frequencies as used by the military and "emergency workers" could be built in one's kitchen from old Model T parts. It is documented that there were many false reports and "radio hoaxes" by American Amateur Radio Operators immediately after it was known that the H.M.S. Titanic was sinking/had sunk way back in 1912. I have posted the song "Amelia Earhart" (D. McHenry) as performed by Freakwater (Feels Like The Third Time, Thrill Jockey, 1993). A beautiful rendition with sweet harmonies. The file is about 1.5MB, in MP3 format, and ZIPPED, at the following URL: http://members.iglou.com/ae4rv/aesong.zip Get it while it's there... Request: Is there a really Hi-Res copy of the Carrington "Wreck Photo" available on the Internet, or would someone email to me a copy? The only ones I can find are rather small. The Research Bulletin dated 10/10/98 has some blow-ups but I would like a LARGE copy of the entire photograph if possible. 73 es 88 Geoffrey Noles, AE4RV (nice call, eh?) ************************************************************************** From Ric We haven't put a hi res version of the Carrington Wreck Photo up on the website because of its size (my "killer" scan is 80 meg). but I think Simon Ellwood has a hi res scan he can make available (is that right Simon?). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:25:03 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Chronometer or Barometer? My data indicate that barometers were N&Z's forte, but they were rated generally as Instrument Makers to the Queen, and the antique instrument dealer who advised me seemed to think what we had was a chronometer. I'll pursue this.... LTM (who's keeping a weather eye out) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:19:58 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: Box kite I remember a letter more about the kite story, but I haven't been able to find it yet. I think it was a radio message or a newspaper article. I think it said, "Tell Amelia to fly the kite". At the time we thought it was a sarcastic remark telling someone to "go fly a kite". It might not be anything, but there was something about that kite. Don J. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:23:02 EDT From: Mark Prange Subject: The Smoking Gun Document From the press release accompanying "Amelia Earhart- The Mystery Solved." [A] report was received at 3.19 pm......"HEIGHT 10000 FEET POSITION 150.7 EAST 7.3 SOUTH......" The next report received at 5.18 p.m. "POSITION 4.33 SOUTH 159.7 EAST HEIGHT 8000 FEET ......." Am I missing something, or is the Electra crossing 9 degrees of longitude in about 2 hours? Isn't the distance between those reported fixes 566 nautical miles? The ground speed appears to be something like 286 knots; (maybe somewhat slower if the first fix were crossed some time before 3:19). I am somewhat taken aback. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:25:48 EDT From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: The Smoking Gun Document Ric, unless I am reading the press release wrong there is some confusion about the position reports. I am sure the correct reports are on the TIGHAR web page but I did not find them. Could you point me in the right direction? I was coming up with ground speeds close to what Amelia reported using the Lae to 5:18 report. At least I would assume she was giving ground speed straight from Fred's report to her. I don't think indicated or true would have any meaning as you pointed out. The "wind 23 Knots" at 5:18 would be a head or tail component as anything else would mean nothing and again would be from Fred's computations. I can't come up with the Long's results. The 134 MPH ground speed is speculation since only the starting point is known not the point or time they reached Howland. The Longs don't know what altitudes they used except for a few points. Nor do they know what the winds and temperatures aloft were. I also cannot find any reason to discount Fred using an offset nav leg to destination but then I find no evidence of it either. I would guess he did as it would be the only way he could have known which way to turn at his final lop UNLESS he was simply confident of picking up Howland, the Itasca or a radio or smoke and just flew "straight" in. I'm not sure any of all this matters as we know he made it to the vicinity of Howland but didn't find it. Knowing whether they flew offset or how fast they flew wouldn't tell us much more. How much fuel they had will always be mere speculation. They either flew around Howland for a while and ditched or went to Hull which seems to make far more sense but then I suppose that's the main theory any way isn't it. At my nice lunch with Muriel in 1976 it was clear she thought ditching at sea was most likely although she gave no reason. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:31:16 EDT From: Bill Stout Subject: Resistance Bulbs THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME CONFUSION OVER WHAT A RESISTANCE BULB IS AND WHAT IT IS USED FOR. THE DESCRIPTION GIVEN BY ANOTHER MEMBER, THAT IS, A WIRE THAT CHANGES RESISTANCE, IS CORRECT. A RESISTANCE BULB IS A PROBE LIKE AFFAIR THAT IS USED TO MEASURE TEMPERATURE AND IS CONNECTED TO A GAUGE THAT READS VOLTAGE. THE VOLTAGE READ BY THE GAUGE IS THE AIRCRAFT POWER SOURCE VOLTS, 28 VOLTS, AS REDUCED BY THE RESISTANCE IN THE BULB. THERE IS A FAMILY OF THESE PROBES UNDER "AN" AND "MS" NUMBERS, NO DOUBT ESTABLISHED IN WWII. THESE PROBES MEASURE TEMPERATURES IN THE MINUS 70 TO PLUS 300 DEGREES C RANGE, AND ARE MOST OFTEN USED FOR CARBURETOR TEMPERATURE, OIL TEMPERATURE AND OUTSIDE AIR TEMPERATURE (IN THAT ORDER). I DON'T PRETEND TO KNOW WHAT IT WAS ON THE LOCKHEED, BUT WOULD GUESS THAT IT WAS THE CARB TEMP, MOUNTED IN THE AIR INLET BOX JUST FORWARD OF THE CARB. THERE IS A SMALL VERSION CALLED A B-5 PROBE THAT FITS INTO A SCREW HOLE IN THE TYPICAL GENERAL AVIATION CARB OF THE LAST 5O YEARS. YOU HAVE PROBABLY USED ON YOURSELF. EXHAUST GASSES AND CYLINDER HEAD TEMPERATURES ARE MEASURED BY THE USE OF THERMOCOUPLES, DEVICES THAT ACTUALLY CREATE THEIR OWN VOLTAGE FROM THE JUNCTION OF TWO DIFFERENT METALS. THESE DEVICES CAN HANDLE THE HIGH TEMPS, THE RESISTANCE BULBS CAN NOT. LTM (WHO TRYS TO KEEP RESISTANCE UP AND TEMPERATURE COOL) BILL STOUT MEMBER ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:35:32 EDT From: R. Johnson Subject: Expansion/Venting I was reading the press release of Mr. Longs' new book on the forum and I have a question. How do you lose 8 liquid gallons of fuel in a 24 hour period by expansion and venting. I know nothing about aircraft so forgive my questions if they seem simple. I do know when I put away my lawn mower at the end of summer, and it has gas in it, it will probably be gone by means of evaporation several months later. Is this what Long is referring to ( evaporation )? What exactly is expansion and venting? R. Johnson LTM ( who rarely cuts her own lawn) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:35:57 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: Box kite I didn't mean to suggest that the box kite was actually intended for use with a radio transmitter - only that I believe it was first discussed on the Forum in that context. LTM, Russ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:36:56 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Vibracorder mystery > From Ric > > A previously undiscovered connection between Earhart and experimental > projects of the budding Luftwaffe? Perhaps, but if true, I wouldn't necessarily read any fascist politics into it. In 1936-37, Germany was arguably the most technologically advanced country in the world and Nazism's evil banality had eroded but not yet destroyed the reputation of German engineering firms. Of course, the idea of a German commercial firm (which may have also been a Luftwaffe subcontractor) field testing a prototype on NR16020 inevitably leads me to thoughts of Charles Lindbergh, who during this same historical period naively allowed himself, as an aviation celebrity, to be drawn into direct contacts with Goering's technologically advanced Luftwaffe, only to see his reputation damaged beyond repair. Wait a moment-- oh my! Yes! It makes sense now! It was all a Nazi plot! The Vibracorder (whatever it was, it sure sounds like an evil 1930s era technology applicable to bombing runs over London and New York) magnificently proved itself in the early stages of the flight, and the Nazis, loathe to see it subsequently fall into the hands of Roosevelt when the plane reached US territory, arranged with the Japanese to scramble the radio transmissions around Howland and shoot the plane down when it appeared in the area. This must be true, since Earhart was an attractive woman and hence perfect for the role of a romantic victim, conned by Nazi agents into carrying the "Vibracorder" on her flight only to be tragically sabotaged (and who with her uncanny resemblance to Lindbergh was obviously his twin in a previous life). Finally there is Noonan, who as the brilliant but alcoholic navigator was a perfect dupe to test the device and then reliably and unknowingly guide the plane into a Japanese ambush. Mystery solved. Gee, I love this empirical research stuff! LTM (who hesitates to acknowledge appreciation for the full range of linguistic amusement available in the term "Vibracorder") william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:37:49 EDT From: Natko Katicic Subject: Re: Vibracorder mystery Christian and Ric write: "The company Kienzle Apparate developed in those years a 'Ruettelrekorder' for planes, but it didn't go into production. Neither a company named Ohmer-Kienzle nor a Product Vibracorder is known." > From Ric > > "Oooookay, so how did a vibracorder that never went into production >end up in NR16020? Is Ohmer-Kienzle perhaps a different company entirely?" Very unlikely that we are dealing with a different Ohmer-Kienzle although it is a little puzzling that nobody's heard of Ohmer. I have had the same experience talking on the phone to a gentleman that goes back 30 years with Kienzle. He doesn't know of Ohmer either. Maybe Ohmer was an American distributor of Kienzle products? Anyway, my source said that Kienzle was producing vibracorders (Ruettelschreiber) until the last one was sold about four years ago (blueprints, licenses and all) to a company named GBO (Geraetebau Odenwald) which took over all of Kienzle's instrument business after the merger with Mannesman VDO in 1981. He says that these instruments were not intended for aviation use but he thought that they could well be used to track engine time in a noisy vibration intensive airplane of the 1930es. He has no knowledge of a model development for airplane use. Maybe they were developing a version that could be mounted in the instrument panel but were overtaken by the advent of the engine-clock? When were these introduced? Unfortunately all archives, documentation, samples etc. were junked during the merger. LTM (who never throws anything out) natko. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:39:55 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: Re: Elgen's book >...these 8 or 10 gallons of gas that have vented out onto the ground... > ..she would top off the morning of the takeoff. Venting of fuel on the ground is so slow that it would be soaked up with hardly a notice. But certainly she & the others knew that. The morning top off was beyond question what would have been done ... unless the plane was refueled the night before & rolled into a hangar. In either event the warm fuel is the case for less weight, not dependant on actual volumetric loss from any further expansion. If that did happen it would of course be an additional loss, but that is doubtful. Now writing My prelim. results. Will send to you with a couple graphs. Roger on the GS, IAS, TAS, etc. Will comment when book arrives. RC PS: OAT's up to the end of the war for many planes was a dial guage with a stem thru the windshield at/near a corner into the slipstream or same dial on the panel with a thin cable exiting the plane somewhere. A mechanical system that operated on the expansion/contraction of a liquid, often alcohol. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:40:38 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Carrier Waves By the early 1930s the FCC was in strict control of the transmitting practices of amateur radio broadcasters in the States. In addition, Ham radio operators have traditionally tended to be disciplined and generally in compliance with the law. This behavior enhances their "franchise" on the radio frequencies allotted to them and historically there has been significant peer pressure among them to avoid behavior that might jeopardize their interests. In addition, the license tests have long required significant study and effort, which confers a certain level of pride and "belonging" among those who get them. For these reasons I too suspect that it is unlikely that any significant traffic originated from this group (on unauthorized frequencies) during the Earhart/Noonan disappearance. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:09:40 EDT From: Mark Turner Subject: Aircraft Water Lights Ric asks, >I wonder if the "flares that >ignite on the surface of the water" are the "aircraft water lights" (Item 30) >in the inventory? Aircraft water lights were indeed water activated flares. These were used by both allied and axis anti-submarine aircraft to mark the location of a surfaced or submerging sub durring a "first pass" bombing or strafing run at night. The aircraft could then make a turn for a second pass, and line up for a depth charge run using the flares dropped previously. Mark Turner ************************************************************************** From Ric Apparently they were in use before the war for less belligent purposes. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:11:27 EDT From: Mark Prange Subject: Expansion/venting Randy Jacobson asked: >How do you lose 8 liquid gallons of fuel in a 24 hour >period by expansion and venting.......What exactly is expansion and >venting? Some fuel tanks have vent tubes to the outside air. This allows air to enter the tank as fuel fluel flows out. Gas expands when heated. If the tank is filled, and the gas is heated by the plane's sitting in the sun for a good while, then the gas will expand. It can then flow out the air vent tube. This tube is sometimes routed to the underside of the wing, where its dripping can be seen. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:15:05 EDT From: Michael Real Subject: Aircraft water lights You wrote: <> I would think that item 125 , PARACHUTE FLARES , the most likely item matching that description stated by A.E., probably of similar manufacture and purpose to my previous posting describing the type of flares KINGSFORD SMITH used for nightime drift observations, or to light up a landing area preparatory to landing. I am guessing that WATER LIGHTS item 30 , would probably be waterproof lights of some description to be used in an emergency ditching at night, handheld and battery operated . ************************************************************************ From Ric Not if they're the same devices used during the war. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:21:06 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Flight planning Having read the recent postings on the new book and a number of the recent commentaries I always seem to be a day late and a dollar short. I have been working for several weeks on the various routes for AE out of Lae using the two contemporaneous reports made by the witness on Lae, a GPS and my trusty E6-B calculator. That was the reason for my recent posting questioning AE and any reports about Nauru Island. The were a total of three position reports made by AE and monitored by Lae. The first was not clear, without a position report, the only clear portion being a reference to Lae, the second reported approximately 150 East, and the third and final approximately 157 East. The error appears to be in the second report. Assuming Lae at 147 East, (I have confirmed all Lat/Long-Pos 1, Pos 2, Nauru, Howland, and Niku from various sources, but can't find anything on Lae), the time, distance, speed calcs show the Electra below stalling speed to the first reported postion and nearly 300 knots for the second postion. I am in the process of plotting 5 routes, times and distances for each for the following: Lae direct Howland; Lae-Postiion 1-Position 2- Howland; Lae-Position 1-Position 2-Nauru-Howland; Lae-Position 1-Position 2-Nauru-Howland-Niku; and ; Lae-Position 1-Position 2-Howland-Niku. Will post the data next week, but the preliminary routings, headings, times and speed raise severel interesting questions. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:26:44 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: The Smoking Gun Document >>"it is a mathematical certainty that an 8.5 percent increase in ground speed >>will result in an 8.5 percent increase in hourly fuel consumption." As someone else noted here, the correlation is certainly not one-to-one, and any correlation should be related to true air speed, not ground speed. But it becomes much more complicated-- the fluid dynamics involved with the airframe (that is, air resistance increasing at a rate far greater than 1:1 with airspeed) and the effect on engine performance of different airflows into the manifold make precise fuel consumption calculations so fraught with variables that I'd be uncomfortable extrapolating too much precision over long distances without actual fuel consumption tables produced from real-world testing with the airframe and engines involved. Add to this the unknown wind conditions and cruising altitudes for the majority of the flight and we have lots of uncertainty. In any event, the flawed understanding and "math" quoted above utterly ruins the authors' credibility concerning any conclusion they may have drawn about the Electra having run short of fuel. Regarding the "expansion and venting" of fuel, the idea that the Electra left several gallons short may turn out to be pure speculation. LTM (who played by the numbers) william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:31:27 EDT From: Robert Klaus Subject: 8.5 Percent You may take the statement in the book "it is a mathematical certainty that an 8.5 percent increase in ground speed will result in an 8.5 percent increase in hourly fuel consumption" as proof that these people know nothing about aircraft performance. Not only is there not a one-to-one relationship, there is no direct relationship. Hourly fuel consumption is purely a function of fuel flow rate. Ground speed is a function of true airspeed and drift. Fuel flow rate does affect airspeed, but even that is not on a one-to-one basis. Doubling the fuel flow does not result in doubling the speed (if it did there would be no reason to go slower to save fuel, just double the speed and you get there in half the time on the same amount of fuel). For any particular aircraft, configuration, and set of atmospheric conditions there is a particular airspeed which results in the greatest number of air miles per gallon of fuel (the C-130 I crewed used the term ANMMP "Air Nautical Miles per Thousand Pounds"). The function is a normal curve. The aircrew tries to keep the airspeed at the calculated peak of the curve (ATC frequently disagrees). Deviations above or below the calculated airspeed result in fewer air miles per gallon of fuel. The airspeed charts Kelly Johnson worked out were apparently tabular data of this calculation for predicted conditions. This, by the way, is one of the flaws in the conspiracy theories based on the idea that NR-16020 had "secret high power military engines" which allowed a course deviation over Japanese Mandate territory. Higher power engines would allow you to go faster, not farther. A high speed off course run would have reduced range. Only if higher power engines were used to pull a heavier airplane off the ground with more fuel would greater range be achieved. I haven't heard any of the conspiracy nuts assert there were more fuel tanks installed. Getting back to the point, I think the inaccuracy in the quote from the book also derives from a confusion of range and endurance. Drift does not affect endurance, it does affect range. They seem to have taken a factor affecting range (wind speed) and applied it to a calculation of endurance to decide when the aircraft would run out of fuel. Finally, does anyone have the performance manual for 16020 or the basic Lockheed model 10E? It would be nice to run calculations and determine what was possible. LTM Robert Klaus *************************************************************************** From Ric We unfortunately do not have a performance manual for the Model 10E. We have lots of other specs and literature, and even a parts manual, but not a flight manual. We'd dearly love to have one. Anybody got one kicking around? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:39:30 EDT From: Richard Johnson Subject: The Mystery Solved: Got my copy of the new book today at Barnes and Noble. Seems all you have to do is not question Mr. Longs' idea that headwinds were 26.5 mph from the minute they took of from Lae all the way to Howland and you to can be a believer. That's not proof to me, but more of guess. Ok Mr. Long, show me beyond a reasonable doubt that these were indeed headwinds of 26.5mph for the entire trip. How can an intelligent man make such a claim. He must know there is know way of knowing the exact direction and speed of winds for the entire trip to Howland. Yet he assumes it to be true. Does he not realize this assumption of 26.5mph headwinds for the entire trip has a good chance of being wrong. Therefore his fuel consumption estimates good be wrong. This guy has lost all credibility with me, not because I disagree with his theory, but to base the entire book on something like 26.5mph headwinds when there is no way to know that. This is his entire theory. I tell ya what, there is one more great mystery to be solved, why did I contribute 25 bucks to this guys' cause!!! Richard Johnson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:42:30 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Hi-res pic request Ric wrote:- <> Yes indeed. The web site that I set up some time ago with images of the Wreck Photo, AE's L10E and various shots of the Ki-54 for comparison is still active at:- http://www.cv990.demon.co.uk/wreck It contains a small image of the wreck - if you click on this you'll get a fairly large one. One forum subscriber (whose email address I've unforunately now lost) offered to host on the Web a very large image of the Wreck Photo, and I did send him a copy. Anyone know if it's available on the Web? Any news on the availability of hires scans of the "Niku wreckage" photo's ? I appreciate you don't have good copies of them all yet. LTM (who loves looking at hires scans) Simon #2120 ************************************************************************* From Ric We'll get what we have up soon. Thanks for your patience. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:43:41 EDT From: Joe Bachus Subject: Luke Field Inventory I unfortunately have not been able to come up with any hard evidence but I have thought on two items in the inventory that might spark some one else to confirm. Cambridge Wools - I think this might be the same stuff that I knew of as Rock Wool, a high temperature insulation that was either fiberglass or asbestos (Flash - Earhart Died of Asbestosis) that would be used to protect the wires of the resistance bulbs or to pack them firmly into place. I used it around heat treat ovens to plug holes for wires and heat leaks. Can-o-lites - Is this simply generic name for Sterno cans? These are the small cans seen heating chafing dishes on buffet lines. Does any of our WW II vets remember what they were called in C-rations? They would be good survival gear to cook food and to keep warm. Hope it might help Joe Bachus ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:44:35 EDT From: Tommy Love Subject: Carbon Tetrachloride fire extinguishers I am responding to a posting on the Forum concerning Carbon Tetrachloride fire extinguishers. These were used on Air Force cargo aircraft (and the early B-52s) up into the early '70s. As I recall, they came in two sizes; 1) about the size of a 'grease gun', 2) about the size of a small coffee can. The appeared to be made out of a heavy guage brass material. For what its worth-Tommy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:47:16 EDT From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Kites I was the one asking about the kite some time ago...It was in reference to a picture I saw of AE standing with a kite...Don't remember the details but I'll dig up the book as reference and give the page number of the picture... LTM (who liked to fly kites as a girl) Patrick N. Robinson (22XX) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:48:11 EDT From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: The Smoking Gun Document Ric, my comment about Hull Island was a lapse of sanity. I meant Gardner. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:52:57 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: EARHART ON CNN The program "Celebrate the Century", broadcast by CNN in Europe today, mention was made of the AE/FN round the world flight of 1937. Amelia Earhart was seen standing in the cockpit of her Lockheed Vega after having flown across the Atlantic alone, followed by the welcome parade in New York. Her main contribution to history, CNN says, was her attempt to be first to fly around the world following the Equator. She was seen and heard talking with her husband, the latter asking whether she would take him with her on the flight. She replied she'd rather take 154 pound of fuel than 154 pound of husband on board. The film then showed her standing before her Lockheed 10E (some good shots of the engine less cowling), AE sitting in the cockpit, AE putting on glasses, AE looking back from the co-pilot's seat towards the rear of the cabin. Noonan is shown plotting a course on his navigator's table in the rear of the cabin. The aircraft is then seen taking off from a wet field, mowing from right of the screen to left, and was then seen flying above clouds. CNN concludes AE and FN failed to find Howland Island throught the failure of making radio contact. Mention was made of the existence of several scenarios but CNN safely concludes AE "disappeared in the sky". ************************************************************************* From Ric The wet field takeoff was a flight from Oakland on March 16, 1937 that was originally supposed to be the departure of the first wolrd flight attempt. The weather was not favorable so they postponed for a day, but rather than disappoint the press they made a local flight for the cameras. This takeoff is usually shown as the departure of the first attempt. It ain't. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 06:50:05 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: Kites I still don't think this was the reference I remembered. A reference to a Kite was in a newspaper article or a message. I'm sure of it! And the event was not long after the loss. It was during the search phase. I'm still reviewing the archives. Don J. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 06:54:04 EDT From: Tom Subject: Re: EARHART ON CNN Herman wrote: >CNN concludes AE and FN failed to find Howland Island throught the >failure of making radio contact. Mention was made of the existence of several >scenarios but CNN safely concludes AE "disappeared in the sky". That's it!! They were snatched in mid-air by the Antarians (you know, the folks who came back to get their pods in "Cocoon"). How could we have been so blind? (slap to forehead with palm). Noonan thought he was taking sun sights, but it was the light from the Antarian shuttle, comin' to get 'em! And the letter to Putnam in 1945 wasn't from China, it was sent from Antares! (...loads to tell. Love to Mother...) Well, at least we now know that Fred and Amelia are still alive, and look just like they did 62 years ago. Thank God that's settled. Now, Ric, let's get after that Roswell UFO business. I have some theories on that. Now, first off... but I guess I should wait until the Roswell Forum is established. LTM (who loves imortality) Tom #2179 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:53:50 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Remote Sensing Options An interesting website to look at some remotely sensed data from IKONOS satellite is: http://www.spaceimaging.com/ One-meter data Mike Ruiz/2088 The No Land Club* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:59:48 EDT From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Fuel used vs range of the 10E I fully agree with the postings by Robert Klaus and William Webster-Garman. For the transport aircraft on which I have been a crew member Long Range Cruise Airspeed, the best range with the least fuel burn, involves a gradual increase in altitude as fuel is burned and the airplane become lighter and a gradual reduction of airspeed. There are far too many variables that can not be known to predict fuel consumption. We can be certain that Amelia and Fred understood the best way to fly the airplane to get the maximum range for the given conditions and it would be hard to believe that they would not be very concerned with obtaining that maximum range. There are probably as many variable for the venting of fuel while the airplane sits on the ground as there are for fuel consumption in flight. Certainly the major factor is the temperature of the fuel when it is put into the tanks vs the temperature it will reach sitting in those tanks. Do the Longs tell us if the fuel came from underground storage or above ground tanks? How do they know the tanks were not "topped off" prior to the flight? Dick Pingrey 0908C ************************************************************************** From Ric The fuel was almost certainly from barrels, not underground storage. We do not know that the tanks were not topped off prior to the flight. That would seem to be a no-brainer but chater doesn't mention it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:06:13 EDT From: Jerry Ross Subject: Incorrect Location of Howland Does anyone know the "incorrect" lat/long of Howland Island that Fred Noonan may have used? I have searched the archives but can only find references stating that it was misplaced by 4 to 6 nm on some charts. Thank you. Jerry Ross ************************************************************************** From Ric The Howland Lat/Long coordinates on the charts Clarence Williams prepared for the first attempt were .49N/176.43W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:31:04 EDT From: Jim Tweedle Subject: Re: Hi-res pic request Just send an e-mail to me with "SEND BIGWRECK" in the subject line, and I'll send you a couple of pictures, the largest being about 1.2 Meg. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:42:20 EDT From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Mystery Solved The Longs' ideas fail because their data is not supportable. They don't know the actual flight path, the actual distance at "19 hours and 12 minutes." Nor do they know the winds and temperatures aloft. They could not have computed the fuel used or remaining. They (along with us) haven't a clue where the plane was or what it did during the last few hours. I think the Longs need to rethink their theory and book passage to Nikumaroro. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:49:18 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Flight Manual (POH) Don't one of the current owners (operators) of the restored Electra(s) currently flying have a POH, or in the alternative, can't some flight tests be run to develop the necessary fuel consumption, power settings, climb rates etc? ************************************************************************** From Ric The only manual that will do us any good is one for a Model 10E. Bear in mind that there were only 15 10Es built and only one of them survives (Grace McGuire's airplane under rebuild in NJ). Linda Finch's aircraft is a modified 10A. McGuire and Finch each probably have manuals but neither has shown any willingness to share information. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:28:37 EDT From: David Subject: "Ghost Electra" circling Niku? I just picked up the November issue of Skin Diver, since another forum member mentioned it earlier. Although I was merely expecting a summary of the facts that us forum addicts already know by heart, I found one paragraph (on page 61) very new and even more interesting: "On our first day here, each of us - including the crew remaining aboard the ship - heard a twin engine prop plane fly over the atoll. Yet, none of us actually saw it. Team members also spotted unexplained lights at night emanating from the uninhabited atoll. Later, five researchers were stranded on shore while swells rose so full and high that we could not safely retrieve them from the landing for two nights. They returned unscathed but somewhat traumatized by the impromptu camping trip. However, we could not convince them to reveal what had happened there." Well, how about it Ric! Is Niku on a major twin engine prop plane corridor, or is there some supernatural force at work here. What about those lights? Are Fred and Amelia's ghosts trying to keep their camp fire burning to spur you on to give them a decent burial? Now's your big chance to explain away these occurrences, before the National Enquirer starts making headlines like: "The love child of Amelia Earhart and her drunken navigator is finally relased from the Japanese, and is now orbiting a remote island in an invisible airplane!" Say it ain't so Ric! LTM, (Who only flies in aircraft she can see!) David :-) ************************************************************************ From Ric l The article was written by Catherine "Cat" Holoway who was and is part of the Nai'a crew and is also a TIGHAR member. All I can do is give you my own account of the events she describes. The lights seen on the island at night were the flashlights of the four team members who stayed ashore. Some of the crew saw the lights apparently without understanding that there were people ashore and the story got started. The four people ashore were Tom King, John Clauss, Gary Quigg and Lonnie Schorer. They volunteered to stay ashore because we knew that the seas were likely to get too rough to get people on and off the island for a couple of days and it was better to get some work done than to just sit aboard the boat waiting for the weather to improve. As far as I could tell they were not the least bit "traumatized" by the experience. In fact, they thoroughly enjoyed themselves and styled themselves "The Sand People." To this day, they jealously guard the rituals of their secret society. The story about hearing the airplane is true. I heard it myself. Radial engines. No doubt about it. Low. Maybe a thousand feet. I was back in the bush so it's not suprising that I couldn't see it, but nobody saw it, even the crew aboard ship. Not everyone on the island heard it, as I recall. Niku is not on any ferry or commercial air route. We almost never see so much as a contrail. The only airplanes out there down low are RNZAF Orion patrol aircraft and on two occasions we've seen them swing by Niku. Pretty hard to mistake the sound of big turboprop engines for radials. Ghost Electra? My mind doesn't easily accept such notions. But it happened. I heard it. A bunch of us in different places heard it. It's in the field notes. I can't explain it. "There are more things in heaven and earth Horatio than are dreamt of in your philosophy" (Hamlet, Act I, scene v) LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:30:56 EDT From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Kites The question I had about a year ago about kites concerned a picture in G. Carrington's book "Amelia Earhart, What Really Happened at Howland". I don't remember my exact question but there is a picture on page 106 of the book that shows AE and GP standing in front of her aircraft with the kites... The caption reads, "Earhart to carry kites as distress signals, Los Angeles, California, March 6, 1937. Should she be forced down during her projected flight around the world, Amelia Earhart plans to fly these kites as distress signals to aid searchers in finding her. Miss Earhart and her husband, George Palmer Putnam, are shown displaying the kites in front of her aircraft." The picture is notated, "Wide World Photographs, 3/6/1937." LTM (who always carried kites in case she was forced down) Patrick N. Robinson (2239) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 07:25:45 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Reviews of Mystery Solved If you have read "Amelia Earhart - The Mystery Solved" and would like to post your review on amazon.com go to http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684860058/o/qid=940952138/sr=8-1/002-6780187-6208202 At this writing there is one review on the page written by something called "Kirkus Reviews." It's a fairly inaccurate of what the Longs contend and ends with the statement " The Longs' extensive research, coupled with their mastery of technical detail, should make this the definitive study of its subject." I would recommend that if you wish to write a review for posting on amazon.com - keep it short - don't be nasty - address issues of fact - briefly list your qualifications on the issues you address LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:08:17 EDT From: David Subject: Re: "Ghost Electra" circling Niku? On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Richard E. Gillespie wrote: > The story about hearing the airplane is true. I heard it myself. Radial > engines. No doubt about it. Low. Maybe a thousand feet. I was back in the > bush so it's not suprising that I couldn't see it, but nobody saw it, even > the crew aboard ship. Not everyone on the island heard it, as I recall. > > Ghost Electra? My mind doesn't easily accept such notions. But it happened. > I heard it. A bunch of us in different places heard it. It's in the field > notes. I can't explain it. Since my mind doesn't easily accept such notions either, (although this story does rather put the hair up on the back of my neck) there must be some way to discover who might possibly have been flying a twin radial- engined aircraft over Niku at the time your team heard it. Since it didn't land at Niku, (you don't think it did a touch and go at low tide by any chance) it must have flown to/from another island(s) either in the Phoenix group, or does Howland have a runway still? Unless it was a drug smuggling plane (which begs the question of why they'd be out there), they must have had to file a flight plan, and likely IFR at that. Assuming the sound you heard came from 1997 and not 1937, hopefully it wouldn't be too difficult to find out who still operated such aircraft in that region two years ago, and which one's flight route might have fit the observations you made of it. Presumably the Flight Service Stations out there would still have old flight plans on file somewhere? Incidentally, did anyone note the direction the sound went to/from, (north to south, or whatever) and did it circle once or more, or did it just make a straight pass overhead and then vanish? Also, was it loudest over the lagoon/Norwich City area, or could anyone tell? Perhaps Amelia was trying to tell you something from beyond... This story gets better all the time! LTM, (who runs the mile-high clairvoyance club) David :-) ************************************************************************* From Ric There is still an excellent runway at Canton but the only avgas there is a few drums left over from Finch's world flight. There are no landing facilities anywhere else in the Phoenix Group or the Tokelaus. Nikumaroro is about as remote a place as there is, except maybe some parts of Antarctica. You can't get there from here. Given the interest in this, I went back and checked my field notes. For Friday Feb 28, 1997 I have the following entry: "Jemasa and Rusi (crew members) say they saw lights on the island last night as if someone was signaling. They are the most religious of the crew and the least likely to invent such a story. Mo (Moses) says this is a known phenomenon It is a portent that something will happen (not bad). On Tuesday we heard an airplane, twin-engine, not radial, over island." So my recollection of the incidents was flawed (surprise, surprise). The lights on shore were seen long before the night the team members stayed ashore. My impression at the time was that engines were NOT radials. I remain quite sure that they were not turboprop either. I don't think anyone determined a direction of flight and I don't recall any imprssion that it circled. I was working in the abandoned village that day but people on the lagoon shore and aboard ship also heard it. Nobody saw it. We haven't expended time and energy trying to check flight plans to figure out who it might have been. It's just one more wierd thing that happened on Niku. It's a wierd place. LTM, Ric ************************************************************************** From Hugh Graham Ric wrote: > Niku is not on any ferry or commercial air route. We almost never see so > much as a contrail. The only airplanes out there down low are RNZAF Orion > patrol aircraft and on two occasions we've seen them swing by Niku. -----But isn't the Orion the military patrol version of the second incarnatiion of the Lockheed "Electra"(not the L10E), and so you could say, quite rightly, that an Electra was seen over Niku. Ooooooo. LTM,(who flew on Electras, hoping the pilot didn't use full throttle) HAG 2201. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:03:17 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Elgen's Book It's good to have a friend working at Borders Books. Just got my copy of Elgin Long's book. Haven't read thoroughly, but skimmed looking for Noonan insights. No biggies, although a couple of things of note: - he cites an FAA letter indicating Noonan started his flying career in mid-1930 at NY Rio & Buenos Aire Line, which was apparently taken over by PAA. - he cites an interview with Callopy indicating that Fred got wobbly drunk and fell, literally, into bed disturbing AE in the next room on the night of June 30. - he cites Callopy as saying Noonan refused a drink the next day with him, saying he, "had had quite enough the night before." - he was fortunate enough to interview Mary Bea before her death and uses info from a number of letters Noonan wrote to her during the flight. - in one of the letters (6/8/37) Noonan says the RDF was useless and not functioning going into Africa. Elgin has an appendix exhibit showing the Electra's time aloft would be 22 hours and 29 minutes. This chart is modified from information Kelly Johnson sent to AE for the Hawaii flight, apparently providing gph at 150mph at various times into the flight. Do we have this Kelly Johnson data?? Also, do we have any documentation of the appropriate indicated airspeeds for max range and max endurance for AE's Lockheed?? blue skies, -jerry ************************************************************************** From Ric The numbers Kelly Johnson provided were: TIME ALTITUDE MANIFOLD PRESS. RPM GALLONS/HR 1 hr. 0 - 8,000 28.5 in. Hg 2,050 100 3 hrs. 8,000 28 in. Hg 1,900 60 3 hrs. 8,000 26.5 in. Hg 1,800 51 3 hrs. 8,000 25 in. Hg 1,700 43 Rest 10,000 24 in. Hg 1,600 38 If you apply those numbers to 1,100 gallons you get: Segment Time Gallons. Fuel Total Fuel Aloft /hr this segment Used 1 hr. 1 hr. 100 100 100 3 hrs. 4 hrs. 60 180 280 3 hrs. 8 hrs. 51 153 433 3 hrs. 12 hrs. 43 129 562 14 h.9m. 24 h.9m. 38 538 1100 Long says that Johnson's numbers were developed specifically for the Oakland/Honolulu flight for which he recommended a fuel load of 900 gallons (Earhart actually carried 947 gallons for that flight). For the Lae/Howland flight the fuel load was greater so Long says that Johnson's numbers must be adjusted to reflect the heavier weight. But how much heavier? Long says that the airplane at Lae, minus gas, was "approximately 342 pounds" lighter than the airplane was for the Oakland/Honolulu flight (two crew instead of four, no trailing wire antenna, etc., etc.). He also says that the 1,100 gallon fuel load was reduced 8 gallons by expansion and venting to 1,092. Based upon these allegations he presents the following table: TIME ALOFT FUEL USED GAL./HR 1 hr. 100 100 3 hr. 5 min. 235 65 6 hr. 5 min. 415 60 9 hr. 5 min 568 51 12 hr. 5 min. 697 43 22 hr. 29 min. 1092 38 In other words, Long says that if Earhart had flown at the recommended 150 mph (130 knots) she would have had 1 hour and 40 minutes less fuel than indicated by a straight application of Johnson's numbers. Earhart was last known to be in the air at 20 hours and 13 minutes into the flight. Accepting (for the moment) Long's calculations, she would have still had 2 hours and 16 minutes of fuel aboard when last heard from. At 130 knots she can go 292 nautical miles. If, at the time of her last transmission, she's far enough south on the line of position to not see Baker Island, she can still reach Gardner Island within the fuel constraints Long suggests. But Long's calculations depend entirely upon his statement of the weight difference between the Oakland/Honolulu airplane and the Lae/Howland airplane ("approximately 342 pounds"). How did he arrive at that figure? The available paperwork on the airplane is lamentably lacking in weight data and Long cites no newly discovered records. Nobody knows what the airplane weighed when it came out of repairs at Lockheed, what it weighed when it left Miami, much less what it weighed when it left Lae. Of course, Long cannot have the airplane continue to fly for 2 hours and 16 minutes after the last radio transmission. In his scenario, the engines must stop at the very moment she is changing frequencies as she said she would do ("Will repeat this on 6210.") in the last message. He gets rid of those pesky extra hours and minutes by declaring there to have been a 23 knot headwind over the entire route from Lae to Howland which, he says, prompted Earhart to abandon Johnson's figures entirely. Long say that the putative headwind is "An average of the forecast winds and actual reported winds aloft over the route.." As his source he cites the Chater Report but the source does not support the allegation. The farther I get into this book the more interesting it gets. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:24:13 EDT From: Mark Cameron Subject: An apology Looking back at my last contribution? to the forum (a few months ago) I now realise some members may have been offended by my off-handed remark about other postings. I sincerely apologise to anyone who was, as I would have been offended myself if roles were reversed. My only excuse was a great deal of personal stress at that time and no sleep for almost 48 hours. Thankfully I wasn't trying to find a small island in the middle of a big ocean. LTM (who knew about jet lag long before we gave it a name) Mark Cameron #2301 ************************************************************************** From Ric Whatever it was you said that was so horrible, we forgive you. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:28:12 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Pyrene Fire Extinguisher Thanks to the wonders of the Forum, I'm now in touch with the Pyrene Corporation, and they've kindly sent me engineering drawings of what they feel are the types of extinguishers represented in the Luke Field inventory. They don't very closely resemble the one we found on Niku, but they also don't very closely resemble the extinguisher we think we can see in a photo of Amelia and Fred loading the Electra in Burbank, and the extinguisher in that photo DOES resemble the one we found on Niku. Next step will be to send a picture of the Niku extinguisher to Pyrene and see what they think about it. There's no reason to think that the one we found is anything but a Loran station artifact, but we shouldn't leave a slab of coral unturned. LTM (who says to wash hands after playing with CTC fire extinguishers) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:46:20 EDT From: Birch Matthews Subject: Two Cents Worth To: Ric Gillespie As a new forum member, I find many of the comments interesting and informative. I also sense some confusion regarding critical fuel factors associated with Earhart's last flight. Some thoughts follow: Most people tend to discuss the number of gallons onboard the Electra when Amelia departed Lae. The important issue, however, is not how many gallons were in the tanks, but how many pounds of fuel were in the tanks. The reason is that engine mixture ratio refers to the weight ratio of fuel and air delivered to the engines. Three temperature dependent factors impact how much fuel weight there was at takeoff: fuel evaporation, overboard venting (due to thermal expansion during the heat of the day), and the gasoline density (specific weight, pounds per cubic foot). One suspects there may have been a bit of evaporation and possibly overboard venting, but the most significant factor was the fuel density. It can be stated with reasonable certainty that the fuel was at an elevated temperature (compared to standard temperature) due to the equatorial heat. Therefore, the fuel weight in total pounds was diminished over what it would have been at say 60 degrees F. To give you an example of what this can mean, the late Paul Mantz used fuel density to his advantage during the 1946 Bendix Trophy Race. The fuel he loaded into his wet wing P-51 Mustang racer was chilled to get a more dense liquid. This was done by lowering buckets of dry ice into the tanker truck from which Mantz would draw his fuel. In addition, the wings of his racer were covered to insulate against the sun's rays. The insulating blankets were removed shortly before takeoff and thus Mantz was able to takeoff with an inte rnal fuel load of well over 5,000 pounds of fuel. Amelia's situation was just the opposite, of course. The volumetric capacity of the fuel tanks remained constant, but the fuel weight was reduced because of the elevated temperature. A second critical factor was mixture ratio control. Assuming Amelia utilized good fuel management (she was aloft over 20 hours), one must also consider variables associated with the Cambridge Fuel Analyzer instrumentation aboard the airplane. This instrument utilized a Wheatstone bridge as the measuring element around which flowed a sample of the exhaust gases. Resistance in the bridge wires vary as exhaust gas thermal conductivity changes. The resulting thermal conductivity can be related to the input mixture ratio producing these gas mixtures. Kelly Johnson relied upon this instrument while establishing a generic long distance flight profile and corresponding engine power settings prior to the first world flight attempt. Note than even marginal fuel rich off-mixture ratio engine operation will become significant during a 20 hour flight -- when every pound of fuel becomes precious. If an off-ratio condition existed, it could have been pilot error or instrumentation error, even a little of both. Incidentally, it is quite feasible to estimate a realistic fuel consumption for Amelia's last flight by analyzing each element of the flight. There will be an error band associated with the calculations, but I believe it will be within say 5 percent. This is certainly within the range of most estimates and speculations about Amelia's fate. Birch Matthews ************************************************************************** From Ric That's worth considerably more than two cents. It does sound like you have some expertise in the field. The problem with analyzing each element of the flight is the paucity of reliable data. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:27:04 EDT From: Bill Zorn Subject: Kites Could you not also use the line from a kite as a lead to take up an antenna line? Sort of a trailing wire effect? *********************************************************************** From Ric Sure, if you had a radio and antenna designed to be used like that. Earhart didn't as far as we know. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:42:29 EDT From: Patrick Gaston Subject: Wreck photo Back on October 15, Ric wrote: "I agree that the Wreck Photo shows a big-engined Lockheed 10 (a C or an E) but there is nothing in the photo that is unique to NR16020. Forced to choose between the Wreck Photo (of unknown provenance) and the "Wreckage Photos" of known provenance, I have to go with the latter." Hmmmm. Seems to me that the Wreck Photo which generated so much excitement a couple years back has been rather unceremoniously dumped in favor of the current crash-near-the-shipwreck hypothesis. Are we being premature here, and is it absolutely necessary that only one hypothesis be "active" at any one time? What we have is a photograph that, pedigree or no pedigree, appears to depict a big-engined Lockheed which has crashed in a tropical setting. According to TIGHAR's 11/21/97 research bulletin ("Photographic Proof or Wishful Thinking?" ) only "[e]ight 10Cs and 15 10Es were built. In addition, one 10A and one 10B were later given the larger engine. (The converted 10A was eventually rebuilt as an approximation of Earhart's and flown around the world in 1997. The converted 10B was ditched off Cape Cod in 1967.) Of the 23 remaining candidates, the disposition of 14 is known. If the logic is sound, the airplane in the wreck photo must be one of the remaining nine. Four of the nine were in tropical locations at last report - three in Central America and one (guess which one) was in the Central Pacific. We may be able to hone it down further." Since one of the remaining nine Electras was Earhart's, it means there were really only eight 10C's/10E's whose fates were unknown as of November 1997. I'm wondering whether you ever were able to narrow the list further, or if those efforts have been discontinued in light of the most recent expedition. Obviously, the more big-engined Electras that can be accounted for, the more significant the Wreck Photo becomes. I would be happy to assist in this project if I had the foggiest idea where to start. I confess I don't understand the apparent contention that one MUST choose which of two apparently-conflicting hypotheses to pursue. Can't both be investigated simultaneously, as long as both remain plausible? Several weeks ago on this Forum, Ric accused me of setting up theoretical straw men so I could knock them down. Guess I could reply, "If the blucher oxford fits..." in the sense that nothing and no one is forcing a choice between the Wreck Photo and the Wreckage Photos. At present, either could depict the ultimate fate of NR16020. I'm just hoping that all efforts to trace the eight remaining Electras have not been abandoned, and would greatly appreciate an update on the subject. Patrick Gaston ************************************************************************* From Ric I have nothing against multiple hypotheses - we probably have a half dozen cooking at any one time - but with limited resources we have to focus on the most promising leads. If someone would like to chase the fate of big-engined Lockheeds I'm all for it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:47:52 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: AE Radios Elgin Long, in his new book, has some details on the radio setup. He says, "The loop coupler control box had been custom-made to electronically adapt the standard Navy RDF-1-B direction-finder loop to the new Bendix RA-1 receiver. Five frequency-band numbers (labeled 1-5) were shown on the face of Earhart's loop coupler, but the Navy model had six bands...the radio direction-finder loop was designed to take bearings only on frequencies between 200 and 1430 kilocycles, whereas the receiver could receive...up to 10,000 kilocycles...If Earhart or Manning tried to take a bearing on a high-frequency signal using the Bendix receiver's upper bands, the resonance of the loop would be so far out of tune they probably could not get a minimum signal." He further states that, "In addition, the five frequency bands of the Bendix receiver were not related to the five band numbers printed on the face of the loop coupler...the five direction-finder loop bands could easily be misinterpreted to be the same as the Bendix receiver's five bands...It would frustrate every attempt Earhart made to use the Bendix direction-finder loop on her last flight." (pg. 63) Much of this came from Long's interviews with Al Hemphill of Bendix and Joe Gurr. I've not been following the detailed radio Forum discussions closely enough to know if this jives with our data. blue skies, -jerry ************************************************************************* From Ric Anecdotes. Maybe they're true. Maybe they're not. I'll make Elgen a deal. I'll accept his if he'll accept ours. From what I've seen, Elgen presents no documentation to support most of his allegations about the Bendix DF and he completely neglects to mention the earlier Hooven/Bendix Radio Compass that was installed and later removed. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:55:34 EDT From: Mike Everette Subject: The Ghost Electra Did the engines on the aircraft sound like they were synchronized, or not? If they weren't, it might have been a Japanese "Mavis" flying boat out of the Marshall Islands... or the ghost of "Washing Machine Charlie" from Guadalcanal, a bit off course... If not, perhaps the PAA Clipper that disappeared without a trace, and recently returned from Antares? Just trying to get a positive ID on this bird. Maybe it's time to lay these ghosts to rest... but, INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW. LTN (who gets her news from CNN) Mike E. #2194 ************************************************************************** From Ric I used to know a guy who ferried light twins from the U.S. to Australia. It's utterly insane but those guys are out there. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:58:55 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Reviews of Mystery Solved > At this writing there is one review on the page written by something called > "Kirkus Reviews." A search turns up: Kirkus Reviews. ("Jim Kobak's Kirkus Reviews"). The Kirkus Service (New York, NY). Twice monthly, 1st and 15th. Critical reviews of adult fiction and nonfiction; also includes books for children and young adults and: Kirkus Reviews 200 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10003 US Phone:212-777-4554 FAX:212-979-1352 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:00:45 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Chronometer Boxes While checking out the latest issue of "Naval History" concerning the forensic photos of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I noticed that a picture of a chronometer box in an ad placed by an apparent chronometer dealer showed that the box was numbered 3767. Once again, four numbers show up on these instrument boxes! It may be a good idea for one of the people involved in the Antiques Roadshow search and most familiar with this quandary to call the dealer to see if there is some sort of signifigance to this four number numbering scheme on these sorts of boxes. The ad appears on page 71 of the issue (December 1999), and the name of the company is J.P. Connor & Co. of Devon, Pennsylvania. Their phone number is 610/644-1474, and their fax is 610/993-0760. If I can help, please let me know. --Chris Kennedy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:03:07 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: "Ghost Electra" circling Niku? A couple of notes on this. First, though the initial "lights" sighting was before we spent our lovely nights on the island, a second occurred during our stay there,and was almost certainly occasioned by our diddling about with flashlights on the beach. Second, back in '89 there was, as I recall, a request from the Kiribati government that we stop in at Hull (I think) to look into a reported drug operation there. Ric declined, being pretty hard-up for weaponry in the event the druggies didn't surrender at the very sight of the TIGHAR flag, so we don't know what was going on there (if anything), but apparently the possibility of drug operations in the area, perhaps involving a (sea?)plane, is not out of the question. LTMotors Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:05:37 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Ghost Electra There is no mistaking the sound of pre-WWII radial engines, we have several local owners of old military trainers & bi-planes who periodically fly them over our neighborhood & you can hear them a mile away, in plenty of time to come out of the house & enjoy their flyby. Sounds like some sort of physic phenomenon or else the TIGHAR organization has just entered the Twilight Zone. Now you've opened up a whole new area of investigation, which will no doubt lead into a new generation of publications on the subject of phychic encounters with AE & FN! Don Neumann ************************************************************************* From Ric <> and now I'm closing it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:08:45 EDT From: Paul Chattey Subject: LONG Gallagherish post There's not been much about "Irish" recently, so here's something from the historic research side of the house that is either marginally off subject or tangentially on. I was struck, while reading "Farewell the Trumpets, An Imperial Retreat", by James Morries, by what could have been a description of "our" man. The following is a long analysis of the personalities of the British colonial administrators, how they arrived in their positions in the 1920s and 30s, and the man who put them there. It caught my attention as a concise summary of the times in which Gerald Gallagher lived, and may partially explain this honorable, eminently likeable gentleman whose congenial and fair administration is apparently still remembered. LTM Who prefers exquisite manners to bombast Paul Page 308, Chapter 15, Section 5 India was a loss anyway, and the imperialists were more concerned now with the Crown Colonies, once the poor relations of Empire, now its chief hope. None of them enjoyed any real responsibility, and most of them seemed likely to remain within the Empire for ever an ever. The dependent colonies were expected to pay their own way-the total British expenditure on them in 1930 was only ?3 million, and the tropical possessions were mostly in an appalling state of dereliction: but they seemed to represent the imperial structure of the future. 'the Empire is Still in Building', said the Empire Marketing Board in one of its neo-Biblical slogans, and the allegorical figures likely to appear now in the imperial propaganda were smiling Negroes of Jamaica or West Africa, garlanded Fijians, resolute Malays or diligent junk-men of Hong Kong. Since it seemed likely to last longer, the colonial administrative service now offered more coveted careers than India. Three was in fact no Colonial Service as such. Some colonies chose their men by competitive examination, but most recruits were selected by patronage. Officially the patron was the Colonial Secretary: unofficially, throughout the 1920s, it was one of his private secretaries, Major Ralph Furse, and it was Furse more than any other man who set the tone of the imperial services in the post-war years. He was a conservative of the complicated sort. The son of a crippled agnostic-'he taught me to ride a horse, to tell the truth, to love my country and to honour soldiers'-Furse was a member of Pop, the ruling society of Eton, and he remained a very responsible schoolboy all his life. He liked to call his seniors 'Sir', and had a sensible weakness for the great and famous: 'I bowed as we shook hands,' he recorded of his first meting with Milner, 'then on an instinctive impulse, I drew myself up to my full height and looked him straight in the eye. He gave a perceptible start....' Though he had an unexpected passion for ballet, he stood for manly values, straight, prefectorial values: during his service on the western front he took a cold bath every morning, often in the open air, and there was a seven-year engagement before he married the daughter of Sir Henry Newbolt. Furse was not a brilliant man, but he had many of the traditional qualities of the Englishman: courage, patience, fitness, and good humor. * *Though not, to judge from his memoirs, Aucuparius (London 1962), modesty. Fir thirty eight years this man chose the rulers of the colonial Empire. He like to call his method 'one of the arcana imperii', for it was altogether unwritten, instinctive and customary. He worked like a mole, he said, burrowing, tunneling, establishing private contacts with headmasters and university tutors, so that likely men were sometimes unwittingly shunted, by one means or another, along the corridors of the establishment to his office in Westminster. A new genre of imperial service had come into being during the past half century, since the acquisition of Britain's vast African empire. Those ragbag black territories, it was thought, strewn across a continent without culture, without history-those bold and earthy possessions did not require intellectuals, but all-round men of practical skills. The men they needed, said Frederick Lugard, Governor of Nigeria, were plain English gentlemen, ' with an almost passionate conception of fair play, of protection of the weak, and of playing the game'. These were Furse's men, not especially clever, not particularly ambitious, but healthy, and brave, and cheerful. In the 1920s and 1930s, as the Indian Empire faltered, they gave to the colonial empire a new cohesion. They were not zealots. They had principles but not beliefs, says a character in one of the novels of Elspeth Huxley, herself and Anglo-Kenyan, and if they were seldom gifted men, and perhaps unlikely to rise to great office at home in England, still they were seldom prigs or bigots either. The African empire did not require ideologies in the field. A recruit for the Nigerian service in 1930 spent a year at Cambridge learning the rudiments of law, tropical medicine and Nigerian languages, but learnt no local history at all, not even imperial history, and indeed went out to the colony without even having heard of its founder the Rhodes of West Africa, George Goldie. Furse had got a third at Oxford, and it was the game man with the third-class degree that he favoured for the Empire. He recruited thousands, for after the war there was a great expansion in the service. Most of them were ex-servicemen, most of them public school boys-'the public school spirit', it was said, 'is greatly valued in the colonial service, and it is a matter of conscious policy to ensure that the supplies of it shall be constantly replenished.' For the most part the new recruits had no lofty sense of mission. They generally assumed the colonial empire would last indefinitely, and took the job because it offered them honourable responsibilities, excused them the drab British grindstone, sounded fun, and promised a pension. They were very decent men. ...'Never since the heroic days of Greece has the wold had such a sweet, just, boyish master', wrote the American philosopher George Santayana, in one of the most widely quoted of imperial compliments, and he was thinking of Furse's men. They were often very close to their subjects, closer by far than the administrators of India, for the colonial officials were less hamstrung by tradition or convention, and were also, not infrequently, very fond of their charges. Relations with chiefs and potentates were often easy and friendly, and the concept of Indirect Rule-allowing the native peoples to run their own affairs, by their own cultures-meant that racial prejudice was never extreme. Settlers might talk of damned niggers, or mock the customs of the indigenes: Furse's men would think it, by and large, hardly cricket. Here is part of a minute circulated by a Governor of the Gold Coast among his staff. 'I wish all officers to remember that a very high standard of work and conduct is expected from members of the service. We must always remember that we are Civil Servants-servants of the public. We are in this country to help the African and to serve him. We derive our salaries from the Colony and it is our duty to give full value for what it pays is. I attach considerable importance to good manners, especially towards the African. Those people who consider themselves so superior to the Africans that they feel justified in despising them and insulting them are quite unfitted for responsible positions in the colony. They are, in my opinion, inferior to those whom they affect to despise, and often betray, by their arrogance and bad manners, the inferiority of which they are secretly ashamed...' It was a resurgence of the trusteeship ideal, but it was weakness too. Furse's colonial service was perfect for the imperial decline-not too aggressive, not too dogmatic, not even too sure of itself. These post-war imperialists were, without doubt, the nicest rulers the Empire ever sent abroad, but they were not the strongest. They saw the other side too generously, and if it ever came to My Empire Right or Wrong, one did not need to be a medicine-man to prophesy their resignation. 'In such dangerous things as war,' Clausewitz had said-and Empire was essentially a risky business-'the worst errors are caused bya spirit of benevolence.' ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:09:42 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: "Ghost Electra" circling Niku? Around 1997 one of the owners of DHL (I forget which) disappeared over the Pacific while flying a seaplane. I remember I contacted DHL to find out what type of airplane he was flying but polite as they are they didn't bother answering my question. Seaplanes with that kind of range have radial engines (possibly an old PBY or anisland hopping Grumman Mallard ?). I'm not saying the airplane the TIGHAR members heard was the guy from DHL. But It proves that there were blokes still flying props across the ocean around that time, probably on private business. Herman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:12:44 EDT From: Mark Prange Subject: Re: An apology >From Mark Cameron > >Looking back at my last contribution? to the forum (a few months ago) I now >realise some members may have been offended by my off-handed remark about >other postings. I can't remember that far back. It must've been a good one--what was said? ************************************************************************* From Ric I have no idea. Must have been awful. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:14:31 EDT From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Pyrene Fire Extinguisher I suppose that the fire extinguisher does not have a serial number, or you would have mentioned it already. Any word from the Loran people about what types of fire extinguishers they had? Dan Postellon#2263 ************************************************************************** From Ric No serial number or any other marking in evidence. No word yet from any Coast Guard vets. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:22:21 EDT From: JVZ Subject: Re: Two Cents Worth I am confused as to why the number of gallons should be analyzed so carefully, when the other half of the equation (the wind) will always be an unknown. Is there something I'm missing? JVZ ************************************************************************* From Ric I tend to agree with you. We can get a general idea of what the aircraft could and could not do given some fairly wide parameters, but we ultimately (to borrow a friend's favorite expression) "measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:51:22 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: The 60s -- AGAIN! Let's see, we got AE allegedly sleeping with What'shisface Gore and possible drug activity near Niku during the latest trip . . . . drugs, sex, and rock 'n roll? Wait . . . wait . . . wait . . . I'm having a flashback . . . . its beautiful, man, puffy orange clouds with an elephant sleeping on a green Toyota, man, its great, dude, really. I'm disappointed no one saw Elvis. LTM, who formally also partied hardy Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ************************************************************************* From Ric We didn't tell you about Elvis? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:52:28 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: The Ghost Electra Ric says: <> So did I. He vanished without a trace in about 1974, assumed to have crashed and sank, but..... LTM (who needs a good navigator) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:53:55 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Ghost Electra This twin engine plane is really a CIA transport, helping Kiribati revolutionaries training on Hull Island. Shhhh! ************************************************************************* From Ric It's so handy having somebody with a high security clearance on board. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:55:15 EDT From: Tom King Subject: TIGHARs Needed TIGHAR Fundraising Committee At its October 25 biennial meeting, TIGHAR's Board of Directors concluded that the organization -- and its obligations -- have grown enough that it can no longer rely on the largely unassisted efforts of Ric and Pat to raise the funds on which it lives. So the Board decided to organize a fundraising committee, and I agreed to coordinate its organization. We will be organizing the committee over the next few months, and want to invite Forum participants to consider taking part. TIGHAR NEEDS YOU! The Committee has as its central purpose the development of an endowment fund in the amount of US$3 million; this will be adequate to fund basic TIGHAR operations using only interest on the fund. The Committee may also become involved in special-purpose fundraising, for expeditions, publications, and the like. Although the committee itself will establish its priorities in consultation with the Board of Directors and Executive Director, the Board has discussed some general directions. We think that major emphasis should be given, as it has in the past, to individual and corporate donations and sponsorships. We think there may be opportunities for fruitful cooperative ventures with educational, historical, historic preservation, and aviation organizations, with the tourism industry and with the corporate world in general. Although opportunities will be explored for marketing TIGHAR services, products, and information in a manner consistent with the organization's purposes, the organization is not in a position to spend large amounts of money up front to develop inventory or to organize service activities. The committee will include members of the Board of Directors, but we want to draw on TIGHAR's entire membership. TIGHAR cannot continue to do what it does -- let alone do other interesting things -- without a broad base of financial support, and that requires a broad base of member support. If you are interested in assisting with this badly needed activity, please let me know at tfking106@aol.com. Thanks, and Love to Mother, who's not feeling very flush right now. Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:04:32 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: "Ghost Electra" circling Niku? I can't resist jumping in on this one. With 6 billion people, lots of good, mass produced maps and so many thousands of privately owned airplanes in the world, given Niku's generally unattended status, combined with its habitability (however marginal) it would be surprising if the island *wasn't* being visited by several undocumented/unpublished flights each year. The fact that people onboard a TIGHAR ship spotted some unexplained lights on the island only enhances this probability. To my knowledge, Easter Island (Rapa Nui) in the southeastern pacific is the most geographically remote island on the planet. But since it has regular commercial airliner service at this time in history, I would have to agree that in practical terms Niku could be a candidate for "most remote island". This could actually make it attractive to all sorts of people, some of whom wouldn't necessarily have any seriously ominous or conspiratorial motivations for their visits. LTM (who gets around) william 2243 ************************************************************************** From Ric I think we can say with a high degree of confidence that Niku is not being visited by airplanes that land there. There are only a handful of aircraft in the world that have the capability to go fly that far and land on water (a few PBYs and Albatrosses). None are based anywhere nearby and anyone who who just popped in would be out of their mind. Bump one coral head in the lagoon and it's Amelia Earhart all over again. The lights on the island seen by the crew were not yachties visiting the island unless they snuck in from the other side. Yachties undoubtedly do visit the place on occasion but those occasions sem to be rather rare. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:19:50 EDT From: Mark Cameron Subject: Re: An apology To Mark Prange and anyone else -- The remark is not worth repeating but was about the boredom of the HF/DF and LOP threads, I forgot that some Forum members are highly interested and experienced in those matters; after all, we're supposed to be here to learn, not to critisize. LTM (who is feeling much better these days) Mark Cameron #2301 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 07:47:37 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Chronometer Boxes Well, I couldn't wait, so called Mr. Connor, the person who placed the ad I discuss, below. Believe it or not, he had heard of us and was full of questions. He said that both sextants and chronometers have a plate attached which gives the sequential production number of the instrument (for example, "3767" is the 3,767th chronometer produced by this particular manufacturer). This number is also recorded on the box which contains the instrument. There is no "code"--i.e., 3501 does NOT equal 1935, unit number 1. Interestingly, if we were talking strictly about chronometers, he felt that there was a chance we could obtain records giving the exact date of manufacture. With respect to sextants, there are so many manufacturers that it would be almost impossible to trace. Still, he said he would put his thinking cap on for ideas, and I promised to call him back. Does anyone have any suggestions?? ************************************************************************** From Ric In our experience (which, by now, is fairly considerable) most sextants carry a serial number either engraved into the metal or on a plate, but the number is not necessarily a straight chronological enumeration. Each manufacturer has its own system. Some sextant boxes carry numbers on plates or plagues. Others don't. I think we should focus on what seems to be the unique feature of the box found on Gardner - a stencilled 3500. If we're going to identify where that box came from we have to find other boxes or photos of other boxes or documents describing other boxes which are similarly marked. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 08:12:28 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Wreck Photo My perspective: Could the photo have been taken by the New Zealand survey crew - would the AE disappearance have been on their minds when they were on the island or would they have been under the belief that she "disappeared" too far north? Even if they thought about the possibility, could have time and distance have dissuaded them from it or caused them to forget about it until the photo surfaced later (and then at a time that they had many other thoughts (WWII). Is it possible that the aircraft was in the vegetation line at that time, but blown back out to sea in later storms? Just food for thought. LTM Dave Bush ************************************************************************* From Ric It's almost inconceivable that a survey party that was there specifically to assess the island for aircraft operations would fail to mention a wrecked airplane or include a snapshot of it among the 78 photos they did take of everything from the shipwreck to frigate birds. When we were trying to fit the Wreck Photo into the whole hypothetical scenario we had to assume that somehow the survey party just missed it. I'm a lot more comfortable with the survey party not realizing that a few scraps of debris out on the reef near the shipwreck were really from an airplane than I am with them missing a largely-intact airplane sitting in the bushes. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 08:35:40 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: "Ghost Electra" circling Niku? Ric wrote, > There are only a handful of aircraft > in the world that have the capability to go fly that far and > land on water... > The lights on the island seen by the crew were not yachties visiting the > island unless they snuck in from the other side. Yachties undoubtedly do > visit the place on occasion but those occasions sem to be rather rare. For the sake of discussion only, the point I was trying to make, really, was that if you guys heard an airplane and saw lights, one way or another, that's evidence that people were in the area-- possibly even an unrelated flyover. Anyone there on an undocumented visit (that is, without the permission of Kiritabi authorities), could easily have been alarmed and slipped away from the opposite side of the island some time after the TIGHAR ship, of unknown identity to them, appeared in the distance. From even a reasonably cautious perspective, the TIGHAR vessel could have potentially been an official Kiritabi patrol boat, or worse, Malay pirates, drug smugglers, "special forces" types from any number of countries on some obscure mission or training exercise-- anyone. I don't want to sound unduly extreme or cynical, but at places like that, where there is no 911, no settlers, and no immediate rule of law, things can quickly degenerate into violence if criminals, rogues, adventurers, or even dubious "military" types unexpectedly run across a small group of people who are exploitable or whose interests run counter to their own. Many small pacific islands have documented episodes of this sort of thing happening over the past 150 years-- and I suspect that there have been dozens more unreported or forgotten incidents when people on the wrong little island at the wrong time simply disappeared without a trace (this is in no way a reference to Earhart's disappearance, even if she did land on Gardner). Whatever, it sounds like TIGHAR personnel visiting Niku have had a relatively close brush with at least one group of people who weren't anxious to trade business cards LTM (who doesn't answer strange knocks on her door in the middle of the night) william 2243 *************************************************************************** From Ric Enroute back to Hawaii from Niku II in 1991 we were up near the equator, a million miles from nowhere, when a blip appeared on the radar dead ahead. We hadn't seen another soul for the entire trip so this was very unusual. When the ship came into visual range it appeared to be a fishing vessel of perhaps 180 feet, slightly larger than our research vessel ACANIA. It was holding position by making a figure 8 pattern, showing no colors, had no nets in the water or fishing gear visible on deck, and would not respond on the radio. Our captain made a large detour to starboard but when we came abreast of the other vessel she began to parallel our course and shadowed us about a mile off our port side for several hours. At this point we were becoming more than a little concerned. At one point we brought one of the sonar "fish" up on deck (looks just like a rocket) and carried it around on our shoulders for a while. Toward evening the other vessel slowed and dropped behind. We watched it on the radar until it dropped off the radar horizon, all the while wondering if they were just waiting until dark to make their run in and board us. But they didn't (obviously). Were they pirates who had mistaken ACANIA for a pleasure yacht but changed their minds when they saw the research gear or were scared off by the "rocket"? Or was it just a fishing boat that was acting strange. Just as with the "Ghost Electra", we'll never know. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 08:39:15 EDT From: Ted Subject: Hauntings Halloween is only another 4 days away - Let's just hope that this "Ghost Electra" stays where it is and doesn't do a fly-over around your house this Sunday night. Discussions about this and those lights on the island could not have been brought up at a better time of year. Hauntingly, Ted ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:29:14 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Invalid assumptions In "Amelia Earhart - The Mystery Solved", Elgen and Marie Long base much of their case for the airplane running out of gas at a specific moment (immediately after the 08:43 last message heard by Itasca) upon its weight at takeoff from Lae and upon how that wieght effected the power management recommendations provide by Kelly Johnson. They do not claim to know the airplane's actual weight, but they do claim to know the difference between the weight upon which Johnson's figures were based and the actual takeoff weight. (They say the airplane was 810 pounds heavier at Lae.) The point is, the airplane's weight and the full text of Johnson's recommendations are important factors. The power management recommendations provided by Kelly Johnson were, according to the authors, based upon a suggested 900 gallon fuel load for the Oakland/Honolulu leg that began the first world flight attempt. The Longs attribute these recommendations to a telegram Johnson sent to Amelia on March 11, 1937. On page 194 of Carol Osborne's book "Amelia My Courageous Sister" two telegrams from Johnson are reproduced. Unfortunately, they are shown folded so the complete text can not be read. Neither Osborne nor Long have shared these vital documents with other researchers. We have never seen the full text of either telegram but have had to rely upon secondary sources for their contents. From what can be gleaned from the reproductions in Osborne's book, the first telegram was sent by Johnson to "A. H. Marshall, Pratt & Whitney Aircraft Co., Hartford, Conn." and begins: COMPLET. FUEL CONSUMPTION TESTS ON EARHART ELECTRA AT FIVE THOUSAND FEET ALTITUDE WITH TWENTY TO THIRTY DEGREES HEAD TEMPERATURE RISE GIVE FOLLOWING STOP NINETEEN HUNDRED RPM (and then the fold hides further text). At the end it says, ...FORTY THREE GALLONS STOP AFTER NINE HOURS FLY AT SIXTEEN HUNDRED RPM TWENTY FOUR INCHES OR FULL THROTTLE TEN THOUSAND FEET AT ZERO SEVEN TWO AT THIRTY EIGHT GALLONS PER HOUR STOP AWAIT YOUR COMMENTS BY WIRE TODAY FOR ADVISING EARHART At the bottom of the telegram is the notation "1100A" apparently indicating the time it was sent. The second telegram has the notation "1200P" and is from Johnson to "Amelia Earhart, Municipal Airport, Oakland, Calif." and begins: I AM ADVISING MARSHALL AS FOLLOWS QUOTE and then repeats the text of the telegram to Marshal which, again, is obscured by the fold. At the end it says: ADVISING EARHART UNQUOTE WILL ADVISE YOU MORE FULLY TONIGHT STOP PLEASE SEND RESULTS OF YOUR TEST HOP OVER OCEAN ON WAY TO OAKLAND AT ONCE There is more to this story than we had at first realized and more than the Longs are saying in the book. Everybody's been using these telegrams as a source as if they're the final word, and clearly they're not. Johnson has not yet heard back from the engine manufacturer and he doesn't have the results of the flight to Oakland. Also on March 11th it may or may not be known yet that Noonan and Mantz will be aboard (Noonan doesn't show up until the 13th and Mantz's decision to ride along was a last minute call). Their weight alone will affect the aiplane's load by at least 300 pounds, probably more. The Longs says that Johnson recommended 900 gallons for the Oakland/Honolulu leg, but Earhart took off with 947 gallons so it seems pretty obvious that some changes were made. The real question is: What was the airplane's predicted performance for the fuel load and weight on the Lae/Howland leg? At this point, the answer is: No one knows. Not the Longs. Not TIGHAR. Not nobody. We need to get our hands on those telegrams and find out if there are any later messages that might document the actual situation for the Oakland/Honolulu leg. That would at least give us a starting point for trying to estimate the situation on July 2nd. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:34:09 EDT From: Tom Van Hare Subject: Re: Chronometer Boxes Ric wrote: > Some sextant boxes carry numbers on plates or plagues. Finally, the mystery is solved. While Noonan took a sunshot, AE commented, "Will repeat this on 6210," then it happened. They got the black plague from their sextant! Let's all sing together now, "Ring around the rosie, pocket full of posey...". Thomas Van Hare ************************************************************************* From Ric For new forum subscribers: In case you hadn't noticed, The Earhart Forum uses the "No Prisoners" approach to peer review. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:39:27 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: No Forum on Halloween The company that services the Forum list has notified us of a "scheduled service interuption" on Sunday, Oct. 31. (They're moving their offices.) So there will be no Forum on Halloween but any postings sent in will (we're told) be stored and given to us on Monday. Urgent messages may be sent by private email or dropped from the Ghost Electra. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:52:13 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Chronometer Boxes I think Chris has unearthed a good piece of information here. Maybe the 3500 stencilled on the box matched a 3500 engraved on the sextant it originally contained, so if we could identify who owned sextant #3500 according to whoever the sextant's manufacturer was, this could be real helpful. But there are all these sextant manufacturers, each numbering its sextants the same way. BUT if we could find The Box, there might be something about it that would indicate what kind of sextant it contained. Heretofore I've been thinking of the sextant box as something that would be very interesting to find, but that probably wouldn't by itself tell us much. Maybe there's more to it than I, at least, thought. Tom King ************************************************************************* From Ric The possibility that one of the numbers on the outside of the box (the stencilled 3500 or the presumably not-stencilled 1542) was the serial number of the sextant inside has always been a hypothesis, but it is unfortunately not the case that all sextants are numbered the same way. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:22:08 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: More secrets I find it intriguing that both the Longs and Carol Osborne choose to not reveal the entire contents of the telegrams they cite as evidence for their hypotheses. 1. Is Osborne really AE's sister? 2. Does Osborne have the originals of these telegrams? How freely has she shared other correspondence with other researchers? 3. Do we assume the Longs have seen the complete text of the telegrams? 4. If so, what is the assumed motive for Osborne/Long for revealing only a portion of them? 5. I had assumed the Longs were respected researchers, albeit with a favorite hypothesis. Surely they understand that selective use of evidence only diminishes their hypothesis. Or do they? 6. Can TIGHAR shed some light on the overall situation on the Osborne/Long relationship -- without being libelous, of course. LTM, who learned to share in Kindergarten Dennis O. McGee #0149CE *************************************************************************** From Ric Thou hast hit upon the crux of the problem that has kept AE lost for 62 years. Those who have sought the answer to the riddle have been, for the most part, individuals who either do not understand or do not accept the basic precepts of scientific method and peer review. They jealously guard their sources and share their data with only a few close associates until they finally publish their work. Then they're shocked, hurt and embarrassed by the errors that could have been so easily avoided. To answer your questions: <<1. Is Osborne really AE's sister?>> "Amelia My Courageous Sister" is co-authored by Carol Osborne and Muriel Morrissey who is (was) Earhart's sister. <<2. Does Osborne have the originals of these telegrams? How freely has she shared other correspondence with other researchers?>> I assume she does because they are reproduced in her book. Osborne has an extensive collection of Earhart paperwork but has, in the past, asked for many thousands of dollars in compensation before she would permit access to it. To my knowledge, no one has yet paid for the privilege of reviewing her collection and the it remains closely held. <<3. Do we assume the Longs have seen the complete text of the telegrams?>> Seems like a safe assumption. Osborne has long been a supporter of Long's theory. <<4. If so, what is the assumed motive for Osborne/Long for revealing only a portion of them?>> I feel certain that Osborne's reproduction of them as folded documents is not an attempt to withhold information. In the same book she reproduces lots of other documents in their entirety. She just doesn't understand the importance and was saving page space. Elgen and Marie Long do not reproduce the documents in their book because they don't reproduce any documents in their book. <<5. I had assumed the Longs were respected researchers, albeit with a favorite hypothesis. Surely they understand that selective use of evidence only diminishes their hypothesis. Or do they?>> If they don't now they soon will. <<6. Can TIGHAR shed some light on the overall situation on the Osborne/Long relationship -- without being libelous, of course.>> We really don't have any information - libelous or otherwise - on that relationship. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:35:31 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: "Ghost Electra" circling Niku? Looks like a good idea to charter a frigate or a destroyer next time or at least hoist a US Navy flag to make your boat look more war-like (joke). It might pay to have somebody watch out for black flags flying showing the skull-and- bones (another joke). Seriously Ric, on missions like that I'd take a couple of rifles with me. No hand guns lest somebody gets hurt. They may be handy for hunting on the islands and bring some change to the ship's company's diet. . In the 18th century European discoverers sailing the Pacific used to be killed by inhabitants on some Pacific islands. They may not do that any more but I wouldn't be surprised that some people make money smuggling things between the islands, a trade as old as mankind. There are even still pirates operating in those exotic waters. ************************************************************************** From Ric If the ship that shadowed us was a pirate and if they had decided to take us, a few rifles would have done us no good (the captain of the ACANIA actually did have an AR15, semi-automatic version of the M16). Modern pirates are usually equipped with a deck mounted 20mm that could end the discussion very quickly. TIGHAR's expedition policy has always been no firearms of any kind, ever. If we can't go there safely without guns we shoudn't go there. There is no aviation mystery or historic aircraft that is worth a fire fight. For minor disagreements there is always cold steel - and some of us are pretty good with a bush knife. But enough of the Indiana Jones stuff. The truth is that field work in the Pacific is probably safer than a walk in most parks. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:09:57 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: Invalid assumptions Re: telegrams - According to the notes section of EL's book, the telegrams Kelly Johnson sent on both March 11 and March 13 regarding power settings for Hawaii are in the Purdue collection. blue skies, -jerry ************************************************************************** From Ric That's pretty puzzling. We've looked at the Purdue collection several times. We'll look again. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:52:10 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: "Ghost Electra" circling Niku? > But enough of the Indiana Jones stuff. The truth is that > field work in the > Pacific is probably safer than a walk in most parks. Probably true. For reasons that I mentioned before, it seems to me that for the occasional person(s) "lurking" around Niku without permission to be there, nefariously or not, the arrival a TIGHAR research vessel would frequently be a motivation to quietly and quickly leave. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:01:37 EDT From: Bill Moffet Subject: Chronometer Boxes For Chris Kennedy, Yours 27th. Talked with J.P.Connor today and learned the chronometer in "Naval History" was a stock photo, not of a clock on hand, and sadly enough he has no idea what the number might stand for and supposes only the manufacturer or owner might know. Looks like another thin thread has snapped. LTM Bill Moffet #2156 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:06:21 EDT From: Monty Subject: Island Debris Nikumaroro Island was inhabited not long after the disappearance of the Earhart flight. It seems that if they did land there, that there would be plenty of things to find on the reefflat and the beach by the early inhabitants. Much of it ending up back at the Village area . The people lived on Niku many years, and I would think that over a period of time that they would accumulate lots of things from the outside would, like the aircraft pieces they got from other islands. So in time they would have things that were usful to them and things that were, or became of no use, therefore trash, junk, garbage, to dispose of somehow. I was wondering what they would do with their disposables thru out the years. Could be they buried them, near the village? If there is something like a garbage pit covered up, It might be another good place to look. Monty 2224 ************************************************************************* From Ric Of course, trash dumps are traditional targets for archaeological work but we have never been able to identify anything you would call a dump on Niku. Perhaps Dr. King could comment further. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:10:07 EDT From: Chuck Boyle Subject: Re: Pyrene Fire Extinguisher Several days ago I emailed a copy of your letter about Tom King having a pyrene fire extinguisher that was found on Gardner Island to those Coast Guard stationed on the Islands in the Canton Chain. I suggested they send to me or directly to the Tighar forum any information they may have. To date I have not had a reply. I do not remember any fire extinguishers, but feel sure we must have had them. We had all kinds of electrical equipment including stoves to cook on, refrigerators and also gasoline and diesel engines to operate a truck, a bulldozer, a boat and to make electricity, etc. Chuck Boyle 2060 ************************************************************************** From Ric If the fire exinguisher continues to look interesting we'll ultimatley need specs on the kind of extinguishers provided to the military as opposed to those availble to civilians. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:46:18 EDT From: Birch Matthews Subject: A New Analysis These thoughts are in response to Ric Gillespie's comments on my notes concerning fuel loss through evaporation, overboard venting and reduced fuel density. Also perhaps to partially respond to JVZ's concerns about emphasis on fuel consumption over that of headwinds. I agree that there is not a tremendous amount of surviving data with which to analyze Amelia's last flight. There is enough, however, to make a reasonable estimates of her flight profile, fuel consumption rates and probable headwinds encountered. 1. Her radio transmissions provide enough information to establish a reasonable facsimile of her flight profile as a function of time. 2. Breaking down the flight profile elements allows us to calculate reasonably accurate fuel consumption rates for each element of the flight from engine warm up at Lae, to a final lean cruise power setting near Howland. 3. The amount of data still available is not insignificant. It includes Pratt & Whitney power curves for her specific engine model; P&W operating recommendations for manifold air pressure / engine rpm values under different operating conditions; Kelly Johnson's recommended cruise power settings and flight profile; a reasonable Lae takeoff weight estimate based upon a Lockheed weight statement for the airplane; and Lockheed polar curve data for the Electra Model 10 airplane. The combination of these data allows one to calculate performance for each element of the flight. 4. There is not an abundance of upper air weather data available, but there is some. We know reported data which includes an indication of velocity and direction over segments of the route to Howland. This permits calculation of headwind components with respect to the direction of flight. This is different from Elgin Long's reliance on a 26.5 mph headwind (apparently) for most of the flight. Incidentally, quoting a wind velocity to the nearest half mile per hour implies an accuracy that surely is not there. Analyzing the wind data permits an assessment of ground speed. I want to emphasize that the above approach cannot yield a precise description of fuel consumption, ground speed, etc., but the resulting answers have to be within the ball park due to the engineering relationships that prevail. To carry the metaphor further in deference to you Yankee fans, the results should be within the infield and probably between home base and the pitcher's mound. Put another way, calculated engineering estimates should be within say + or - 5 percent of the actual situation. A lot depends upon the reasonableness of the assumptions used. The purpose of these exercises is twofold. First, it shows where Amelia could not have gone due to range limitations thereby eliminating some of the more exotic speculations. Second, if the results from analyzing different aspects of the flight are internally consistent (the answer from one analysis is not at odds with that from another), you gain confidence in the overall conclusion. Hope I haven't put anyone to sleep or impaired their eyesight . . . ************************************************************************* From Ric No, you have not. To my knowledge, the kind of analysis you decribe has never been done in an open, peer reviewed manner. I would like to suggest that we assemble a small team of qualified people to undertake such an analysis. Recently we've had several forum postings (like this one) on the subject of aircraft and engine performance which imply that the poster has some genuine credentials in the field. I'd like to request that any forum subscriber who would like to work on this project email me privately with a brief summary of their education and experience. There is an opportunity here to do something really worthwhile - and let me say up front that if a thorough analysis results in a supportable conclusion that the airplane could not realistically have reached Nikumaroro TIGHAR will have to seriously reconsider its hypothesis. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:52:16 EDT From: Birch Matthews Subject: Kelly Johnson telegrams I have Xerox copies of three telegrams written by Kelly Johnson, two dated March 11, 1937, and the third dated March 13, 1937. All three are addressed to Amelia Earhart at the Oakland Municipal Airport. Copies of these documents were obtained from Lockheed archives during my research for the book "Beyond the Horizons" written by Walter J. Boyne. I am quite willing to share these. Give me an address and I will send copies. The first telegram does two things. First, it gives details of the fuel consumption flight tests on the Earhart Electra. Second, it tells Amelia that he (Kelly) is advising Marshall at Pratt & Whitney of his flight profile and corresponding power setting recommendations. Although these may have been specifically for the Oakland - Honolulu flight, they also represented a generic long distance flight plan (which would include the initial leg to Honolulu). This first telegram recommends a (multiple) step climb to altitude. The second telegram (same day) informs Amelia that Pratt & Whitney confirmed his power setting recommendations. It also requests fuel consumption data be sent back to Lockheed so that Kelly can recheck his fuel consumption data and recommendations for the next leg to Howland. And finally, the third telegram on March 13 gave Amelia revised instructions on power setting for the first six hours of the flight to Honolulu. ************************************************************************* From Ric Thank you. If you'll send copies to: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 we'll put all three telegrams up on the TIGHAR website as the new Document of the Week. I had already called Purdue and asked them to search the files for the telegrams but I'll tell them not to bother. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:03:05 EDT From: Bill Zorn Subject: Re: No Forum on Halloween (i think I'll apologize for this one in advance) ( I can see this thread unraveling, fast and furious) A ghost Electra? What an interesting idea for a Halloween costume! ************************************************************************* From Ric I tried it one year but the aluminum was real uncomfortable and the wings wouldn't fit through the door so I couldn't go trick-or-treating. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:09:32 EDT From: Dave Porter Subject: TIGHAR vs. the pirates So, all we have to do is get Operation Sepulchre moving, so we can recover a German "88" to mount on the deck of the Nai'a. LTM, who had vays off makingk us talk Dave Porter, 2288 ************************************************************************* From Ric I suppose we could also arm the ultralight. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:13:24 EDT From: Tom Cook Subject: Wreck Photo Replying to Patrick Gaston's post regarding the "wreck photo". Back when it was a hot topic, I seem to recall that Ric said that there were two sizes of oil tanks and that the "wreck photo" shows the firewall mounting holes only for the optional larger tank, so this would further reduce the number of of possible candidates for the "plane in the picture" I sure hate to give up on this picture, despite it's lack of verifiable pedigree, it sure LOOKS like it could be AE's A/C. TC 2127 ************************************************************************* From Ric I don't think we should give up on any lead until it has been played out to the end, but we seemed to have reached something of a stalemate on the Wreck Photo and the new scenario needs attention so that's where we're putting our effort. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:33:13 EDT From: Dave Porter Subject: Video delayed The more I read here on the forum about Niku, the more I want to see it. Is there an anticipated production date/mailing date for that expedition video that was promised to those of us that forked over $100 for last summer's expedition? LTM, who always taught me to be patient Dave Porter, 2288 P.S. maybe the mystery lights were lost trick-or-treaters looking for the european style house ************************************************************************** From Ric Patience is indeed a virtue. Our production of the Niku video has been set back some by the very disappointing loss of most of the tape we had shot on the island. Here's what happened. Upon leaving Fiji to fly back to the States the videotape and the exposed film of the still photography was packed in a bag with the cameras and checked as luggage so that it wouldn't be x-rayed. When we got to LAX we discovered that four containers of bags had been left behind in Fiji in order to lighten the aircraft sufficiently for takeoff. When the bag with the tape and film finally caught up with us a week later, the box containing 10 of the 15 exposed tapes was missing. The five other tapes, the exposed film and the cameras were intact. Our best guess is that there was a mix up when the bags were inspected by Customs at LAX and we have been trying desperately to locate the tapes ever since. At his point, however, it don't look good. We'll still produce the video. We have lots of video of the island from previous trips and some from this trip and, of course, thousands of stills. Realistically however, it'll be after the first of the year before we will be able to really devote our attention to that project. We feel really bad about this and we'll cheerfully send a full refund to anyone who bought a video and would rather not wait for it. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:18:51 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Kelly Johnson telegrams If it's not too much trouble for them to look (maybe they have an index, or stuff is chronological, or they just happen to know where such telegrams are) it might be beneficial to have copies of the other side of the conversation - Johnson to P&W - to fully flesh it out. Just a thought. ltm jon 2266 *************************************************************************** From Ric Looks like Birch Matthews will be able to help us out with the copies of the three telegrams in the short run. We'll want to have another hard look at the entire Purdue collection and we already have a TIGHAR expedition team member (Gary Quigg) set up to do that. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:20:09 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Fire Extinguishers Ric said: "If the fire extinguisher continues to look interesting we'll ultimately need specs on the kind of extinguishers provided to the military as opposed to those available to civilians." During my brief and fractious Air Force career in the 60s we were the recipient of a lot of 40s- and 50s-era hand-me-down equipment at our intercept sites, such as R-390 and SP-600 receivers; old ammo, barracks, desks, etc. I remember well the fire extinguishers at our site in Greece, which had tons and tons of electrical equipment. The extinguishers were of two types: One was the old fashioned soda-water type that you had to hold upside down to make it work, and the other was a bit more high tech -- a bucket of sand, which everyone used as a butt can. (The soda-water model was drawn from existing stock and the butt can was probably a field modification of the venerable Mark II, 5-gallon oil bucket.) LTM, who took early "retirement" Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:44:16 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: A New Analysis I would be interested to know how a qualified analysis of engine performance and fuel flow for the purpose of determining actual fuel consumption can cope with at least two missing variables: These are 1) The true performance of that particular airframe and propellers while moving through the air and 2) The accurate weight of the aircraft. The unknowns in these combined factors, combined with the gaps in what is known about the cumulative headwinds, appear to me to be capable of introducing a margin of error in a range of 10-20% if calculating fuel consumption for a 20 hour flight. On the other hand, a thorough analysis would probably definitively reveal the existence of that sort of unacceptable error margin, which would probably be of sufficient size to debunk any claims (favorable to any theory) to solving the mystery based on fuel consumption. william 2243 ************************************************************************* From Ric Off the top of my head I'd say that Kelly Johnson's figures, which were the result of actual flight tests in NR16020, provide at least a starting place for calculating the performance of the same machine (after extensive repairs and modifications) with the same engines (but different prop blades) on July 2nd. The big bugaboo, I suspect, is going to be the airplane's weight at Lae. We should be able to work out the fuel load in pounds within fairly reasonable constraints but the rest of the airplane is a huge question mark. None of the paperwork I've seen so far provides an empty weight for the machine when it came out of repairs on May 19, 1937 but we know that several siginificant structural changes were made. Removals or installations of equipment, if any, in Miami are undocumented. There is no inventory of what was carried in the cabin for the Lae/Howland flight. Unless we can find records that we don't have right now we have no way of knowing for sure whether the Lae airplane weighed more, less, or the same as the Oakland airplane. As you say, the exercise will at the very least help us define the boundaries of what can and can not be said about the airplane's endurance - broad though those boundaries may be. (But I don't think we'll be able able to match Elgen Long's precision in establishing the precise moment of engine falilure.) LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:40:23 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Draft Review of Mystery Solved Here's the first draft of a review of "Amelia Earhart - The Mystery Solved" that we plan to mount on the TIGHAR website and publish in TIGHAR Tracks. Before we do, I wanted the Forum to have a chance to look at it and offer any corrections or suggestions. Please check my work. LTM, Ric ************************************************************************ AMELIA EARHART - The Mystery Solved By Elgen M. Long and Marie K. Long Simon & Schuster, 1999 (320 pages, $25.00) Elgen Long has a problem. For twenty five years he has been trying to convince people that Amelia Earhart ran out of gas and crashed into the sea, and yet debate continues to rage about the fate of history's most famous woman flyer. Now, having finally presented his case in writing, his problem is bound to get worse. Many readers will skim over the convoluted calculations Long uses to prove that Earhart ran out of fuel at a specific moment reasoning that, as a retired airline pilot and record-setting flyer in his own right, he must know what he's talking about. But any pilot's eyebrows are sure to rise with the realization that Long's conclusion hinges upon an undocumented "26.5 mph" headwind that remains constant over a distance of more than 2,500 miles. Some will also question his remarkable decision that Earhart's statement "speed 140 knots" is an airspeed read from an indicator calbrated in miles per hour rather than a ground speed calculated by Noonan. Any engineer will notice that virtually every critical aspect of the aircraft's performance (amount of fuel, airspeed, rate of fuel consumption, weight) has been altered based upon the author's own assumptions. Any navigator is sure to wonder at Long's selective interpretation of ambiguous position reports to make them fit his narrow scenario. And any historian will see the book's thumping tone of unqualified pronouncement as amateurish and incredible. Contradictions abound. Early in the book a map is presented showing the direct route from Lae, New Guinea to Howland Island and Earhart's "actual route" based upon position reports contained in the Chater Report (which is touted as the document which makes it possible to "say conclusively why she ran out of gas"). The map of the "actual route" shows deviations from the direct route which add at least 50 miles to the distance flown and yet later in the book Long shows that his calculations are based upon an "actual distance" flown of 2, 753 miles - only 17 miles longer than the 2, 556 miles of the direct route. He can't have it both ways. It also does not help that Long's arithmetic is based upon a false assumption. In explaining his fuel calculations he states that "If the maximum range remains constant, it is a mathematical certainty that an 8.5 percent increase in groundspeed will result in an 8.5 percent increase in hourly fuel consumption." (page 233) This absolute equating of apples and oranges is simply not true. That Elgen and Marie Long chose to solve the mystery rather than present their evidence is deeply regretable. The volume of information they have acquired over the years is truly impressive and, because his investigations began 25 years ago, Elgen has collected anecdotal recollections from key players in the Earhart drama who are now long dead. Sadly, the Longs' admitted decision to "inject poetic license" into the narrative in order to "aid the flow of factual material" makes it difficult and often impossible to know how much of the scene's described are of the authors' invention. No footnotes are provided. To know what is cited and what is not the discerning reader must check the notes at the back of the book for each page of text. Earhart and Noonan may have run out of gas and gone down at sea but any credible argument for that hypothesis needs to establish, according to accepted standards of historical investigation, not only that it was impossible for the aircraft to reach land but must also provide credible alternative explanations for the abundant documentary, photographic and artifactual evidence which suggests that it did reach land at Gardner Island (Nikumaroro). The Longs' have done neither. Their attempt to settle the argument by declaration will only damage their credibility among all but the most gullible readers. ************************************************************************* Notes to the forum: Long's map shows two deviations from the direct route to Howland - a dogleg southeast from Lae to 150.7 East/7.3 South then a return to a point on the direct route at 159.7 East/4.33 South (near the Nikumanu Islands) followed by a deviation north of the direct route to the estimated position of the SS Myrtlebank which was "80 miles southward of Nauru." My statement, "The map of the "actual route" shows deviations from the direct route which add at least 50 miles to the distance flown and yet Long's calculations are based upon an "actual distance" flown of 2, 753 miles - only 17 miles longer than the 2, 556 miles of the direct route." is based upon a straight line distance from Lae to the Nikumanu Islands of 735 nm and a distance to that point, via the dogleg, of 770 nm ( a difference of 35 nm) plus a very conservative estimate of 12 nm for the Myrtlebank dogleg for a total added distance of 47 nm. "At least 50 (statute) miles" seems like a safe estimate. Double check me on "If the maximum range remains constant, it is a mathematical certainty that an 8.5 percent increase in groundspeed will result in an 8.5 percent increase in hourly fuel consumption." When I first put this statement out to the forum I neglected to include the qualifier ""If the maximum range remains constant...". It still looks bogus to me but I want to be sure I'm not missing something. I have not mentioned anything about the Chater Report being found as a direct result of TIGHAR's work and published fully four years before he says it was "authenticated." In truth, it doesn't matter how the report came to light. Comments? Suggestions? I want to put up the final draft on the website not later than Monday. We can include a map showing the distance discrepancies. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:43:38 EST From: Mark Prange Subject: New Earhart/Long website http://www.discoveramelia.com/html/index.html ************************************************************************ From Ric Well, actually the site has nothing to do with the Longs except that it promotes their conclusion tha she went down at sea. It's an effort by a company called OceanWorkers, Inc. to raise the capital to go recover the Electra from the ocean floor. The website speaks for itself. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:16:04 EST From: Robert Klaus Subject: Re: A New Analysis William 2243 (is that the Boston 2243s?) raises several good points about the limits to a flight performance analysis. The three biggest areas of indeterminacy are actual, as oppossed to calculated aircraft performance, winds, and weight. The first of these can be reduced to a significant degree by performing the same calculations for the earlier legs of the mission, then comparing the results to what is known of the real flights. This should result in a differential between calculated and actual performance. On modern aircraft performance charts this included based on the lowest performance of the fleet, most aircraft performing better than the charts predict. When calculated for an individual aircraft this is sometimes called a 'finagle factor'. That's defined as the number you should have added, subtracted, multiplied or divided by the answer you got to get the answer you needed. For weight, it should be possible to narrow down the possible range of values. The same for winds. Taken all together this will give an upper and lower limit of possible values. Any theory with a fuel exhaustion falling outside those limits is excluded. Any theory constrained by those limits is still as possible as it ever was. I didn't mention one other factor, largely because I don't know how to evaluate it. That is, Crew Performance. How closely did the crew stick to the plan? Running off speed or altitude, or with the mixture rich or prop settings wrong for any time can have a dramatic affect on fuel consumption. I've done 20 hour crew days, I can tell you that suggesting that mistakes might have been made is not an insult to Earhart or Noonan. LTM (who allways goes to bed on time) Robert Klaus *************************************************************************** From Ric This is going to be fun. <> No, the Los Angeles 2243s. Came west around 1880. They were orignally the 2278s but an immigration official at Ellis Island couldn't pronounce it so he changed the name to 2243. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:57:51 EST From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Island Debris Ric, I think there are still some folks here who don't really understand the geography of Nikumaroro. Let me see if I do... The highest point of land is what, 7 feet above sea level, is that correct? And any time a big ocean swell of 8 feet or more (from a nearby typhoon or undersea earthquake) comes along, the island is underwater, right? And when the odd typhoon comes close, pushing along a storm surge of 10-20 feet, the island gets scrubbed pretty clean, I would think. Do I have a fair understanding of the situation, or am I all wet? LTM (who hates it when her Bluchers get wet) Tom #2179 ************************************************************************** From Ric Better grab a snorkel. Storm surges do a lot of damage to the western end of the island but we see no evidence that the place ever gets overwashed except for a few flats near the lagoon passages. Generally speaking, the surrounding reef does a great job of protecting the shoreline and the force of any wave that does make it ashore is quickly absorbed by the dense vegetation just beyond the beach (much to the detriment of the vegetation). The dynamics of the water flow during "westerly" events is something we have just come to realize may have had a great deal to do with wreckage distribution. Stay tuned. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:27:05 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Draft critiques From Russ Matthews (#0509CE) << The map of the "actual route" shows deviations from the direct route which add at least 50 miles to the distance flown and yet later in the book Long shows that his calculations are based upon an "actual distance" flown of 2, 753 miles - only 17 miles longer than the 2, 556 miles of the direct route. He can't have it both ways. >> Actually, based on those figures, you're both wrong. 2,753 - 2,556 = 197. Could you have flip-flopped the 7 and 5? An additional 17 miles added to the direct route would be 2, 573 miles. LTM (Learn The Math), Russ ************************************************************************** From Ric I did transpose the numbers, thanks. Elgen's number is 2,573. ************************************************************************** From E. G. Kindley Only a small suggestion, but it occurs at the outset of your very nice analysis. For purposes of tone and to suggest impartiality from the beginning (so a reader won't say, "Oh, this guy's gonna' be critical and stop reading.") I suggest you change "Elgen Long has a problem." to something more neutral, like "Elgen Long faces a dilemma," then, continue as you have, to show the issues point-by-point. At the end, you can conclude that his dilemma IS a problem or something along those lines that brings the analysis full circle. I know this is a (very) small point, and not the kind of input you were thinking about, but, nonetheless, for what it's worth... Also, I think your choice about the Chater Report and TIGHAR is correct, again, for reasons of tone and neutrality. Balance simply increases the analysis' credibility Best, E.G. Kindley *************************************************************************** From Ric This is exactly the kind of feedback I need. You're right. The tone needs to be less belligerent. ************************************************************************** From Bill Zorn Not that I'm any sort of writer, or editor or expert on writing, (Just ask my old English teachers) Think I would start the whole text steam out with the fifth pargarph."That Elgen and Marie Long chose to solve the mystery rather than present their evidence is deeply regrettable......" By doing that, you start out on a bit more positive note, and do give the Longs some (apparent) credit, before you jump into specific issues and criticisms. I think you are more likely to keep and attract readers to your text and points that way. If you start out kind of angry and gruff, and it does set a tone, and fairly or unfairly, the reader judges you and your presentation from that. Couple of other things, forum wise re: the ghost Electra Halloween costume. Wasn't the most recent Halloween past before this incident, or do I have my dates mixed up, or haven't been paying attention again? So, then how did you have the idea for a ghost Electra costume beforehand? And where did you put the props? (rimshot) Also, I thought, back when there was the discussion about modifying the forum, a concessus was reached where, if the writer of the post wanted their E-mail address posted along with their text, all they had to do was include it in the main body of text. I realize there are issues and dangers there, (arr.... here be monsters.. and pirates..arrr) liability wise. Have you reversed that policy again? No biggie. LTM, who needs time off to trick or treat. Bill ************************************************************************** From Ric I like your idea about how to start the review. Second draft coming up. The Ghost Electra was heard on February 26, 1997. Where I put the props is my business. As for including email addresses in forum postings: Our object is to include it if you want it included and not include it if you don't. Some people use an email program that automatically adds a signature line that includes the email address. That makes it hard to decide whether to include it or not. Putting the address in the body of the text if you want it included in the forum posting seems to be the best solution. ************************************************************************* From Birch Matthews Ric, In response to your call for comments on the Long book review, I offer the following thoughts concerning the "8.5 percent" statement on page 233: "If the maximum range remains constant . . ." portion of this sentence really isn't applicable to the situation Long is describing. The aircraft will have a theoretical maximum range in still air at standard atmospheric conditions and optimum cruise. But we are not dealing here with a theoretical case. There were variables precluding a constant maximum range. The 8.5 percent equivalency statement that follows in that sentence is overly simplistic. For instance, an increase or decrease in headwind without altering the engine power setting will change the ground speed without changing fuel consumption. *************************************************************************** From Jim Tireny Ric---Have just read your preliminary draft of review on ELs book---- 1-Be a little stronger in your wording of the negatives in your review of his book.....Dont trash him/her completely but bring it up to the next level of criticism.... 2-Stress his lack of footnotes and sources. 3-Put in your maps and your cogent analysis of his theory and where he has gone wrong......... Good Luck----I dont think I will be buying his bookfor various reasons but then I wont be purchasing 'Dutch' either......... Jim Tierney PS- Life is too short and I dont have enough years left to read all the drivel that is out there... JT ************************************************************************** From Ric "O pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth That I am meek and gentle with these butchers." (Julius Caesar, Act III, Scene 1) ************************************************************************* From Tom King Well, frankly, I think the tone is too argumentative and aggressive. I think a more dispassionate, factual review would be stronger. On the other hand, I'm surprised you don't use Randy's rationale for rejecting the position reports that would require the Electra to have bone impossibly slowly on the first leg and impossibly fast on the second -- did something turn out to be wrong with these? I just think you'd make the case better by not making it so aggressively, and by being more specific about errors and opinions masquerading as facts. The only SPECIFIC problem I have, though, is with: any credible argument for that hypothesis needs to establish, according to accepted standards of historical investigation, not only that it was impossible for the aircraft to reach land but must also provide credible alternative explanations for the abundant documentary, photographic and artifactual evidence which suggests that it did reach land at Gardner Island (Nikumaroro). That's just not true. A CREDIBLE argument can be made without showing that it was IMPOSSIBLE for the plane to reach land; it can simply show that it's less plausible that the plane reached land than that it didn't. As for accounting for the Niku evidence, I agree with you, but I think that putting that argument forward weakens the appearance of objectivity in your review. It would be better, I think, to stick to the evidence the Longs have presented, and explain what's wrong with it, rather than insisting that they account for OUR evidence. They should, of course, but I think you should remain above the insistence that they do so. LTM (who, you may think, is feeling a bit bitchy today) TK ************************************************************************** From Ric That's why I called it a draft. I appreciate the input and I see your point. The problem of the Chater position reports is an interesting one. The position Earhart gives at 0519 GCT (5 hours and 19 minutes into the flight) is only 186 nm from Lae. If it is a current position then her groundspeed has been 35 knots. ("Houston, we have a problem.") Her next position report comes two hours later at 0718 GCT and puts her some 584 nm from the position she reported at 0519 GCT. Taken at face value, her groundspeed for the past two hours has been 292 knots. ("Never mind.") Elgen Long acknowledges that something is amiss. He can't question the accuracy of the wireless operator's transcription of the transmission because he has built up the Chater Report as the all-important key to the mystery. Instead, he says that the positions are old when they are transmitted. That's not unreasonable. Studies of Earhart's postion reports on the Oakland/Honolulu flight show that her position reports do not reflect where she is right now. It takes time for Noonan to plot a fix and Earhart is transmitting on a set schedule. But Long says that the 0519 GCT report probably reflects the aircraft's position at local noon (3 hours and 19 minutes earlier) because "it was standard practice for ships at sea to give their position at noon every day." He doesn't explain why she didn't give this report in the message she sent an hour earlier. He does, however, say that the 0718 GCT position report was one hour old when broadcast. The only reason he gives is that it fits his scenario. A more logical way to explain the discrepancies in the Chater position reports might be to note that the 0519 GCT report places the aircraft not only way too close to Lae but significantly off course to the south. It was received on 6210 kcs, the frequency that the Lae wireless operator described as "very rough" when checking Earhart's transmitter. The 0718 GCT report has the airplane back on course and on schedule. It seems more likely that the operator simply misunderstood the coordinates given in the 0519 report. ************************************************************************* From William 3 items relating to your review, which I enjoyed reading: "If the maximum range remains constant...". It still looks bogus to me but I want to be sure I'm not missing something. No matter, this doesn't change the reality that the relationship between fuel consumption and groundspeed are in no way 1:1. In fact, there is no relationship between fuel consumption and groundspeed at all. The Longs' position collapses right there. With prop planes specifically, fuel consumption has some relationship to airpseed, but it is complex and not 1:1. Fuel consumption increases on a curve at a faster rate than airspeed as airspeed increases, due to engine performance factors and more importantly, to the aerodynamics of the props and airframe. Indeed, there is an upper limit (I don't know what it was for the Electra) of speed at which the curve becomes a vertical line and propellers simply can't move enough air to increase the airspeed of the aircraft. The "mathematical certainty" statement by the Longs is simply wrong and ruins their scientific credibility. Earhart might have crashed into the sea, but the Longs' case is empirically irrelevant to that possibility. Regarding your remark, > but must also provide credible > alternative explanations for the abundant documentary, photographic and > artifactual evidence which suggests that it did reach land at > Gardner Island I can imagine a proof of an alternate solution that has nothing to do with Gardner, that is so overwhelmingly convincing that it would make the Gardner scenario moot and unnecessary to even mention, much less refute (as an extreme example, an absolutely genuine photograph, with accompanying documents, found in Moscow, of AE on Baker standing in front of the Electra taken shortly before she was kidnapped by Nazis , that sort of thing). Nobody has any responsibility to directly refute the possibility of the landing on Gardner, or to disprove that Earhart crashed into the ocean. The responsibility is to find positive proof of what did happen, not to refute something that could have happened but didn't. I probably understand why you inserted the reference to the Gardner theory, but with all due respect, I believe that your review would be more scholarly and objective without it. Proofreading error spotted: > "aid the flow of factual material" makes it difficult and often impossible to > know how much of the scene's described are of the authors' invention. "scene's" uses a possessive apostrophe but the word is used in a plural context. The apostrophe should be removed, "scenes" is correct in this sentence. LTM (who was possessive about her plurality) william 2243 *************************************************************************** From Harry Poole For what its worth, I would take a slightly different tack. The book has a lot of good points in it, and is much better than other far out ideas. Thus, I would recommend that you start with some legitimate praise, where it is warranted, to try to balance the review. After pointing out some good items, then raise some of the concerns you mentioned. As it is, by being only a negative review, it would give the general public that it is only sour grapes from TIGHAR. The book deserves some credit, and it should be first. LTM (who always looks for the best in people first) Harry #2300 ************************************************************************* From Alan Caldwell The map of the "actual route" shows deviations from the direct route which add at least 50 miles to the distance flown and yet Long's calculations are based upon an "actual distance" flown of 2, 753 miles - only 17 miles longer than the 2, 556 miles of the direct route." How does Long know the actual route? I only know of Lae to an incorrect position report (at least the time was wrong) to one that is probably correct to "pass(ing) overhead" of a freighter "putting into port at Nauru (whatever position that is) then "200 miles out" and finally "we must be on you." That's the only route I am aware of which seems a bit imprecise. << "If the maximum range remains constant, it is a mathematical certainty that an 8.5 percent increase in groundspeed will result in an 8.5 percent increase in hourly fuel consumption." >> That's totally incorrect. The two do not necessarily have anything to do with each other. The fuel consumption is a function of throttle and prop setting. If the headwind dropped off 8.5% there would be an increase in ground speed with NO effect on hourly fuel consumption although the plane would cover more distance in that hour. If the groundspeed increases how do we know whether it is because of lighter head winds or increased throttle? See, that's why Long won't use ground speed. Having flown for nearly 45 years I can honestly say I have never encountered a constant wind of any significant distance let alone 2500 miles. That's absurd. Wind also changes with altitude and we don't know all the altitudes flown for the entire distance and neither do the Longs. Their work almost does not deserve comment. Alan ************************************************************************* From Ric It is not at all certain that the "ship in sight ahead" was the Myrtlebank and, even if it was, nobody knows just where the Myrtlebank was at that time. I agree that Longs' work almost does not deserve comment but it is sure to receive widespread attention and silence implies assent. *************************************************************************** From Ric I have a question and a suggestion. A question concerning the following sentence: << Any engineer will notice that virtually every critical aspect of the aircraft's performance (amount of fuel, airspeed, rate of fuel consumption, weight) has been altered based upon the author's own assumptions. > have all the aspects been "altered" implying that they truly exist and were changed, or have the Longs made unverifiable and unreliable assumptions regarding the aspects of performance? My suggestion - - since both the Longs are listed as the authors it would be more accurate throughout the review to use the plural whenever one is referring to the authors of the book. In the first four paragraphs you use the singular Long and the masculine pronoun he. Thanks for the opportunity to critique your fine review. Best regards, Suzanne #2084 ************************************************************************* From Ric <> Uh huh. 26.5 mph headwind. 140 knot airpeed. 342 lb wieght difference. The soon-to-be-famous 8.5% mathematical certainty. And on and on. You're probably right about references to the authors. They chose to put both names on the cover although only Elgen's credentials are listed in the book. The flyleaf says that Marie is a former public relations consultant and helped establish the Western Aerospace Museum in Oakland. *************************************************************************** From Phil Tanner [I have not mentioned anything about the Chater Report being found as a direct result of TIGHAR's work and published fully four years before he says it was "authenticated." In truth, it doesn't matter how the report came to light.] I have a copy of the book on order so can't comment much, but I can't see any harm at all in making these points, even if briefly and gently. It goes to the picture of the author's credibility across the board, Your Honour. If the report was found solely through others' efforts, it's intellectually dishonest not to acknowledge this. If the authenticity of a document has never been in doubt, it takes a cod-historian to suggest otherwise. (This reminds me of the practice in the UK national lottery, where an hour or so after the numbers have been drawn a solemn announcement is made that "today's numbers have been confirmed as..." There is never any need for "confirmation", of course - it's just an attempt to add a pseudo-legal sheen and aggrandize an essentially tacky process.) LTM, Phil Tanner 2276 ************************************************************************* From Ric We can't take credit for finding the Chater Report but it is accurate to say that it wouldn't have been found if it weren't for TIGHAR. I know that sounds a bit contrdictory but here's what happened. Back in December of 1991 we were getting tons of press in the wake of Niku II. Hugh Leggat, Manager of Corprate Communications at Placer Dome in Vancouver, B.C. was digging through the old company files researching an article on gold mining in New Guinea which he was writing for the company magazine "Prospect". He stumbled across a folder labeled "Earhart" and remembered that he had seen an article in the newspaper within the past day or two with something about a search for Amelia Earhart. He found the article and called me, explaining that he had this old file and wondered if it might be of any interest to us. He described the contents of the file and when I regained consciousness I asked if he would send us copies of everything. He not only did that but sent us one of the original "flimsies" (carbon copies) of the eight-page Chater letter. I then worked with Hugh in preparing his article for the company magazine. The whole experience was a researcher's fondest dream come true. It smarts a bit to have Elgen not mention how his supposed "smoking-gun document" came to light and his statement that it wasn't "autheniticated" until 1995 is an insult, but I don't think we can talk about any of this unless asked without looking petty. ************************************************************************** All of this feedback is great. Thanks. Back to the drawing board. Ltm, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:01:10 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Island Debris Ric's exactly right; we've never found anything resembling a dump. For that matter, I can't recall seeing anything resembling a dump, per se, in any Micronesian village, though stuff often sort of accumulates in gullies and other low spots. The people of Karaka Village, by all accounts, prided themselves on keeping the place tidy, so they must have put trash somewhere. On the other hand, we now find a lot of stuff scattered about the house sites -- including, of course, lots of airplane parts. I suspect that most non-recyclable, non-biodegradable, non-burnable trash got buried, probably in each individual mwenga or house site. But it's a good question to keep in mind when we interview village veterans. LTM (who says: Keep it clean) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:24:47 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Calculating the fuel Can we turn this fuel consumption problem inside out by getting away from the predicted performance and go with some actual consumption / endurance figures of any of the long legs of her flight? Are there any records of how much fuel was consumed for any of these legs vs the distance, time, wind, and estimated weight? My guess is there was a max weight AE was trying to stay under, or at least near. Why else would she send stuff home in favor of more gas. Assuming that, and I know assumptions can lead us astray, it might be construed that she was at or near her max weight for most of the flight. Is there a leg that we know she was heavy, with known distance, time, and fuel consumption? What about the flight from Calif to Miami at the start of the second attempt. I believe she had a third person aboard, and, like most expeditions, the initial start probably had the maximum amount of equipment aboard. The Atlantic leg from Brazil to Africa might be a good one to examine if the fuel consumed info is available. Just seems like the results from actual flight legs would be a good cross check with the KJ performance figures and other estimates, and would give us some indight to how well AE was actually managing her fuel. LTM (who always strives to manage her fuel consumption) Andrew McKenna #1045 *************************************************************************** From Ric Yes, that would seem to be a good way to approach it. I'm not sure how much data are available but we can look. Here's something else that occurs to me along these same lines. Back before the Chater Report pretty much put an end to the debate about how many gallons of gas Earhart at least thought she had aboard, somebody (and I can't remember who) did some elaborate calculations and arrived at a max weight for a 10E to get off the ground in under 3,000 feet given the supposed elevation, temperature, humidity, wind, at Lae that morning. Their conclusion, as I recall, (Caution: human memory at work) was that the fuel load could not have been over 950 gallons. I have to wonder if their work was, in fact, legitimate but they had the airplane-minus-gas weight wrong. It the airplane was lightened enough between March and July, the Lae takeoff weight might be virtually the same as it was for Oakland takeoff. Anybody remember who it was that was making the argument that it was physically impossible to get the airplane off the ground in that distance with more than X gallons aboard? LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:59:06 EST From: Chuck Boyle Subject: Re: Pyrene Fire Extinguisher I am planning on going to the Washington National Records Center in Suitland, MD, along with Tom King on November 18, 1999, to look at the CG Loran records for Units 90, 91, 92, 93 & 94. Unit 92 is Gardner Island. Hopefully we will find inventories and other records that may be of interest to the Tighar Group. We are presently waiting for a confirmation from the Center for this date. We have been given permission to review these records from the United States Coast Guard. We will keep you informed. Chuck Boyle. 2060 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:32:25 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: GPP I was recently perusing my Grandparents library, and came across a copy of Fred Goerner's 1966 book "The Search for Amelia Earhart". Quite interesting. One of the tidbits that he states was that during WWII George P. Putnam "served in the China-Burma-India theater as an Army Air Corps major," What do we know about GPP's service in China-Burma-India? Seems to me that there might be some link between his service and the " Love to Mother" message. Awile back, I raised the possibility that the message would make sense if it had been sent by his son, David B Putnam. Do we really know that David never followed GPP's footsteps over to China ? Andrew McKenna #1045 ************************************************************************** From Ric David died a few years ago. His daughter, Sally Putnam Chapman, is a TIGHAR member and is, I'm sure, familiar with the allegations made about the Love to Mother telegram. If it, in fact, was sent by her father it seems like she would have mentioned it. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:59:55 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Pyrene Fire Extinguisher I've sent Pyrene a photo of the Niku extinguisher, and am waiting to hear back.