Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:09:03 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Article in new magazine

From Ric

Check your newsstands for the premiere issue of a new magazine called Discovering Archaeology.  You'll recognize it by the headline "Amelia Earhart Found?" and the picture on the cover of the face of "Otzi the IceMan" (there's also an article about him).

The feature Earhart article was written by none other than our own dogmatic camp follower and mindless automaton Dr. Tom King, Senior Archeologist for The Earhart Project.  Accurate, informative and well-written text with lots of pitchers of Niku and hard working TIGHARs (and, for once, not one photo of your chest-beating moderator).

I have no idea how widely distributed it will be.  This is their first issue. I'd be interested to know if it's easy or hard to find.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 16:50:37 EST
From:         Carol Dow
Subject:      Re: Questions and Answers

How does one become an Earhart Scholar? One way of doing it is to go to the Public Library and look at World Atlas books and meaure the distance between Howland Island and Gardner Island. You're going to find the distance is over 600 miles. Next.... check to see if that is statute miles or nautical miles. If Earhart's Electra had a cruising speend of 130 MPH (statute miles), Earhart would have 4-5 hours flying time to make it to Gardner Island. The length of time it woud take is prohibitive....repeat prohibitive! Consider the fact those Wasp engines of hers must have been on econony power settings which would stretch the time factor out even further. Now, scholars, I want to ask you how could a tired and probably very scared pilot and navigator take off on another adventure trying to find a second "pea-sized island in the Pacific over 600 miles from Howland? Now does that make sense to you? The first attempt obviously failed so what is the incentive to try another wild "goose" chase? I happen to be a Bonanza Pilot and have some time behind the controls, and I well know what it is to have sweat on your face and a look of fear in you fear in your eyes. Any pilot who was in the predicament AE was in would  have doubled back and headed for the island chain they just flew over. They must have known there was an airstrip at Tarawa. My best guess is that is exactly what they did.

Instead of chasing after fantasies on Gardner Island, if I was looking for Earhart's Electra I would be searching the Tarawa chain of Islands....and search, and search, and search. If nothing could be found I would assume she went down at sea. However, I can't believe Earhart went down at sea, she was too good of a pilot to loose her airplane in the ocean. Earhart, earlier in the flight, made a U-turn when they ran into bad weather and she probably did the same thing once it became apparent they weren't going to find Howland. In "hangar talk" it's called a 180 degree turn.

Enroute Earhart flew over the Gilbert Islands (Kiribati) on course and on time on the way to Howland. Now I refuse to accept the fact they didn't head for those Islands once they knew they were in trouble. Nobody, repeat nobody wants to ditch at sea. I have a cousin who is an F-18 pilot on the Abraham Lincoln. His "fly-by-wire" system went out and his squadron leader told him to bail out. The plane went completely unstable. He refused to able and flew the plane back to dry land. Nobody, nobody wants to ditch at sea, I don't care who it is. If there is dry land close by....go for it.

Also, what was wrong with Earhart's radios with all that static they encountered? VHF frequencies are static free. I have my suspicions someone was trying to jam her transmissions...like maybe the Japanese who probably would have given anything to get their hands on that airplane of hers. Earhart's Electra was all metal. The Japanese did not have an all metal twin engine plane....they were fabric. It's not so easy puting metal on ariplanes...ask the engineers at Boeing. Each rivet, each cut in the metal is critical.

OK scholars, let check this out. Carol Dow ....Beardov@AOL.com (lady pilot with a few hours). If I was looking for Earhart's electra I believe I would do it with a metal detector and search, search the Gilberts. Replies anyone?

***************************************************************

From Ric

First I want to advise the Forum that Ms. Dow sent a similar message to me as a private email to which I replied that I was glad she had everything figured out, but that her facts were wrong, and that in 30 years of flying I had learned never to argue with a 500 hour pilot.

Now she has joined the forum and submitted the above message for posting.  The purpose of the forum is not only to further our research, but also to inform and educate those who share our interest but may not be aware of what we have learned so far.  Ms. Dow's approach to the Earhart mystery is, unfortunately, not unusual and her posting, while perhaps a bit strident, is not overtly rude or abusive.   So I will reply and hope that my comments are taken as they are intended - not to embarrass or humiliate, but to inform and educate.

In order to engage in intelligent speculation about what Earhart might have done upon failing to find Howland Island, I'm sure you'd agree that it is important to have an accurate picture of the situation with which she was faced.  In other words, you can't draw valid conclusions from invalid information.

We know that AE left Lae with 1,100 U.S. gallons of fuel and that, according to the power and fuel management profiles prepared for her by Lockheed's Kelly Johnson, that should have given her a total endurance of 24 hours and 10 minutes.  The flight to Howland was expected to take 19 hours, thus giving her the 20%  (5 hour) reserve which was standard for long-distance flights.

With that information in mind, the message received by the Itasca at 07:42 local time (19 hours and 12 minutes into the flight) makes perfect sense: "We must be on you but cannot see you but gas is running low.  Been unable to reach you by radio.  We are flying at 1,000 feet." To paraphrase, "We have come to the place where our navigation says Howland should be but we can't see the island and we have begun to burn our fuel reserve."  The reason for flying at 1,000 is almost certainly to get below the base of the scattered clouds.

An hour later, at 08:43 local time (20 hours and 13 minutes into the flight) Itasca hears the last message it will receive:

"We are on the line 157 337.  Will repeat message.  We will repeat this on 6210 Kcs.  Wait.  We are running on north and south line."

This rather clearly describes a course of action other than turning back for the Gilberts (what you call "the Tarawa chain of islands"), but would that have been a prudent course of action?  Let's look at Earhart's options at that moment.  Here are the facts she has to deal with:

1.  As you have so correctly stated, the absolute last thing she wants to do is put this airplane in the water.

2.  She has just shy of 4 hours of fuel remaining in which to find land.  With that, she can cover, depending on the winds, roughly 520 nautical miles at her best economical cruising speed of 130 knots.

3.  She knows that the closest island of the Gilberts (an atoll called Arorae) is 500 nautical miles away .  She would have to hit it precisely starting from an unknown point.  Tarawa, by the way, is 750 nautical miles and there is no airfield there or anywhwere else in the Gilberts in 1937.  The only advantage to heading for the Gilberts would be that the islands were densely populated and she would be sure to be found. (Incidentally, the Gilberts were subsequently searched as part of the Navy's effort to find Earhart.)

4.  She does not know where she is, but she is not totally lost either.  She (well, actually Noonan) knows that they are somewhere along a line which runs 337 degrees to the northwest and 157 degrees to the southeast and passes, at some point, through Howland Island.  But because they don't know where they are on the line, they don't know which way to fly along the line to reach Howland.

5.  She and Noonan know that there are three other islands along that same line stretching southeastward from Howland.  Baker (40 nautical miles), McKean (290 nautical miles) and Gardner, now known as Nikumaroro, which is 350 nautical miles (403 statute miles) as measured on a World Aeronautical Chart (WAC).  By proceeeding southeastward along the 157 337 line (the one she said she was  flying on in her last transmission) they have four opportunities (Howland, Baker Mckean and Gardner) to reach land before they run out of fuel. What would you do?

Your questions about radio static are puzzling.  I'm not aware of any evidence that she was troubled by static any more than is normal on HF frequencies.  I can't imagine where you got the impression that she was using VHF.  Maybe it's the same place where you heard that all Japanese twin engine planes at that time were fabric and that the Japanese would have given anything to get their hands on her Electra.  Not only did Japan have several all-metal twins in production in 1937, but they had also purchased an Electra from Lockheed the year before on the open market.

If you need further references or sources for the information provided above just let me know.  I hope you enjoy the forum.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 16:54:02 EST
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      Re: NOONAN'S SEAT

Ric---Regarding FJN and his radio/DF skills...

There was a certain amount of crosstraining between all the crew members of the Clippers. This was done by command of Andre Priester,etc.

FJN probably had some basic indoctrination in the skills of the radio operator regarding communications and BASIC  DF. He would have done this in his first years with PAA. How current he was or how far his skills had deteriorated thru lack of use is unknown. The crosstraining was normally only used in emergencies as when someone became ill or unable to complete the flight. They could go on to the next Main base and get a replacement. Whether this ever happened on an FJN flight-  I dont know--It is safe to assume that his skills were minimal at best by July 37

Jim Tierney

****************************************************************

From Ric

And remember, the DFing role of the air crew in the Pan Am system was passive. It was the people on the ground who took the bearing.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:00:01 EST
From:         Russ Cherry
Subject:      Scott Berg's Book "Lindbergh"

Hi Ric:  I received this book for Christmas and am about half done reading it.  I find it to be very analytic and personal with respect to his character and values.  I recommend it all in the TIGHAR forum and others interested in this aviation pioneer and visionary.

Russ Cherry

**************************************************************

From Ric

I too am reading Berg's book and enjoying it.  The only fault I can find is in the author obvious lack of familiarity with aviation - referring to a takeoff run as "taxiing" and references to Lindbergh's "bombing missions" in the Pacific.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:04:46 EST
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: Sextants, Reprise

From Ric, "If they do, it will be a pretty good indicator that the sextant box found on Niku with the bones in 1940 was once U.S. Navy property. What, I wonder, will that tell us?"

I am under the weather hosting a flu bug, but my foggy recollection says we have reports that Fred borrowed an octant from the Navy in San Diego before the first attempt. If the stenciling tracks to a SD Navy base in 1937, we have a connection. Although I don't know if there is other info documenting the actual equipment he had along for the second attempt which would support or contradict this.

And thanks for cutting Sactodave off. The Forum was starting to become call-in radio (you know, where people yell unsubstantiated pontifications at one another amid fervent name calling). Please be quicker with the knife in the future.

Happy New Year to all on the Forum!

blue skies, -jerry

***************************************************************

From Ric

Sorry to hear you're socked in.  You're correct about the bubble octant borrowed from the Navy.  It came from North Island and the serial number was 12-36.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:06:38 EST
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: Historic preservation

Ric's right about the grease!

That hair pomade was called "Macassar." It meant "bear oil." That's why the little doilies that people used to put on sofa and cloth chair tops (where the head made contact) were called "Antimacassars." Their job was to soak up Macassar. I learned that piece of trivia in 1974 from my English 101 professor, the Rev. Richard Wirsing, who went on to become the archivist for Duquesne University, my alma mater.

Happy New Year!
Gene Dangelo #2211
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:09:49 EST
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      Re: QUESTIONS & ANSWERS, etc

Oh NO 
Spare me!!!!
'I enjoy being a churl? Please!!

Jim Tierney

*************************************************************

From Ric

Sorry about the vomit on the keyboard. We could probably work up the complete lyrics if you like. Happy New Year to ALL!
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:18:14 EST
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Re: NOONAN'S SEAT

Maybe a floor plan of AE's Electra could be published in a future isssue of TIGHAR TRACKS ?

I'd be interested to see the lay out.

Thanks,
Roger Kelley #2112

*************************************************************

From Ric

So would I.  We have the cabin fuel tank configuration and, of course, the cockpit lay out, but we really don't know what the aft end of the cabin looked like after the repairs were made following the Luke Field crash.  All the snazzy cut-away drawings you've seen in books and magazines are based upon descriptions and photos made prior to the first world flight attempt.  As a representation of what the cabin looked like for the second attempt it's totally bogus.  We can see enough through the open cabin door in some photos to know that here were no instruments mounted by the cabin windows, no chronometers shock-mounted in the navigator's table, and maybe no navigator's table.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:27:57 EST
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Re: Why we search.

THREE CHEERS FOR GOOD OLD RIC !!!!

This has got to be one of the best, if not the best posting yet !!

Yeesss!!

Roger Kelley #2112
**************************************************************
From Ric
(scuff foot, look at ground, smile churlishly, blush)

=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:36:47 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Gerald Gallagher's father

TIGHAR FLASH, 12/8/98 reports that Gerald Gallagher's father was a doctor in the West African Medical Service.  What is the source of that information and is anything else known of the father?  Name, where he may have lived in Great Britain, anything that might lead to finding living family members?

***************************************************************
From Ric

Yeah, we have enough to do a search.  Just a matter of finding the time.  His name was Gerald Hugh Gallagher ("Irish" was Gerald Bernard Gallagher).  We don't know where the Gallagher's came from in England but we do know that young Gerald attended Stonyhurst College and their records can probably give us what town he came from.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:39:42 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Niku sextant box

Again, TIGHAR FLASH 12/8/98:  Commander Nasmyth said: "As the sextant box has no distinguishing marks..."  No stencilled 3500?  No 1542, possibly handwritten? Was he looking at the same sextant box Gallagher described?
*************************************************************

From Ric

Yes, almost certainly.  It seems apparent that Nasmyth did not consider the numbers to be "distinguishing marks."  Curious indeed.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:43:53 EST
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: Noonan and the radio

In those days, was the use of radio (particularly the aviation bands) regulated and licenced ?

I can't speak for the US, but over here in the UK when you're learning to fly you have to obtain a radio licence before the instructor can send you off solo, and when you eventually earn your pilot's licence the radio licence forms an integral part of it.

My point here is that - building on what Ric has said about navigators of that era - Earhart may have had a radio licence as she was a pilot, but not Noonan since his job didn't require him to use the radio ? Perhaps Mike our resident radio historian could tell us ?   Just speculation.

Happy new year to everone.
Simon #2120
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:46:37 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Travels of a mindless automaton

In case any Forum Follower is interested, TIGHAR's mindless automaton archeologist plans to be in the following cities on the following dates, and would be happy to talk with groups or just plain folks about the Earhart Project.  I have slides, handouts, etc. etc.  Two warnings, though:

1. I'm just a dumb archeologist, and don't know about all that airplane and radio stuff.
2. My travels are contingent on my classes filling (I teach short courses in federal historic preservation requirements), and they don't always, whereupon I don't have enough of Other People's Money to travel).

But assuming a sufficiency of OPM, I'll be in the following places on the following dates, and if anybody wants a talk to their local Rotary Club, or just wants to have dinner and talk about the project, I'm willing.

Tom King
Earhart Project Archeologist

Schedule

Feb. 3-10  Atlanta, GA
Feb. 24-26:  Window Rock, AZ
March 15-17:  Reno, NV
April 6-16:  Honolulu, HI
April 19-22:  Sacramento, CA
April 28-May 5: San Francisco, CA
May 18-20:  Fort Hood, TX
June 7-9:  Phoenix, AZ
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:52:39 EST
From:         Mike
Subject:      Lincoln chair

> You have a common misconception about the Lincoln chair. That's not dried
> blood.  It's the grease men used to put on their hair.

Ric, my wife and I wouldn't have even noticed it but for the sign pointing it out. (Or it was in one of their pamphlets - we only looked for it after reading about it.) Anyway, if there's a misconception it's on the part of the museum - we just believed what we were told.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Now we have a mystery on our hands.  Several years ago we taught an Aviation Archeaology & Historic Preservation Course at the Henry Ford Museum.  At that time, I'm quite sure that the information about the stain being grease, not blood, was on the placard in front of the exhibit.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:57:33 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Sextants, Reprise

Jon didn't actually intend this as a forum posting but I'm sure he won't mind. The sextant box in question is just an example of what an old nautical sextant box looks like.  we have been puzzling over whether or not it has dovetailed corners (like the box found on Niku and the Pensacola box that belonged to Freddie).  Hard to tell from the photo.

LTM
Ric
************************************************************
Ric,

I can't believe we haven't communicated since last year...

The sextant box picture is at:

http://www.seajunk.com/nautical/clistpg1.htm in case you want to view it directly.  Below is the description which accompanies it.

Vintage Navigation Sextant...Marked "Hezzanith Observatory" this vintage WW2 Hezzamith sextant is numbered P.987 and is in pristine condition. Correction document attached to inside lid is dated Jan.1, 1946. Instrument is rare as it has four sighting scopes and all filters and mirrors are perfect. Box is the orignal. Brass hardware is intact, one brass clip is missing thumb press holder, and box has lock, but no key. Originally sold by Heath & Co of London......$450.00...Photo <sextant.jpg>...Sold...!

Caught the last 1/3 of the History special - enough to get all of your part.  Looked good to me.  Casually mentioned to my wife "I correspond regularly with that guy on email..." - she seemed sort of surprised and somewhat impressed.

Best of the new year to all the tighars. LTM
jon
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:02:05 EST
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Why we search.

Publicity Stunt?  Yes.  Chris Columbus did one of those, too.  Had to have the press - a real press hound.  Admiral Byrd, Edmund Hillary, Wiley Post, Lewis & Clark, press hounds and publicity stunts abounding.  Or were they adventure junkies?  Or did they truly want to push the boundaries of knowledge and make a contribution to mankind?  Probably all of the above and other more personal reasons.  Who can understand or fathom everything that motivates one person. Read about T.E. Lawrence (ie Lawrence of Arabia) in the latest National Geographic.  Another press hound, for sure, and still getting it.

Well this dogmatic camp follower is ready to load his backpack and follow you wherever.

Love To Mother,
Dave Bush
#2200

**************************************************************

From Ric

Come to think of it, if the real point of what we're doing is to draw attention to something we feel is important then The Earhart Project is - ta da! - a publicity stunt.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:39:01 EST
From:         Jack
Subject:      T Tracks back issues

As a follow-up to Jack J's queries, Is there a list of Tighar Tracks back issues anywhere that will also summarize whats in the issue? I would be interested in knowing about issues prior to Vol. 14, No. 1 (May 15, 1998).

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

Dog Six King.
Regards,
Jack, # 2157
****************************************************************

From Ric

We could mount a master list on the website with the contents of each issue all the way back to Vol 1, No.1 (1985).  The early issues, back when it was more of a newsletter than a magazine, are available only as part of compilations of several years worth, but at least the list would let members see what has been published and what they might like to order.

Anybody else think that this would be a good idea?  It would take a little time and hassle to set up, but if the interest is there we're happy to do it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:41:37 EST
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: QUESTIONS & ANSWERS, et

Let me know if you need me....

Gene Dangelo #2211
Composer-In-Residence:)

*************************************************************
From Ric

Oh I will.  I will.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:58:27 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Gerald Gallagher's father

You didn't answer the question as to the source of the information...

**************************************************************

From Ric

Terribly sorry.  One of the files we copied in England was Gallagher's 3 volume "Personal File" which catalogs his entire career with the Colonial Service.  The very first document lists who his father is and describes his education.  The are also references to his father in correspondence at the time of Gerald's death.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:01:23 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: NOONAN'S SEAT

Have you seen any pictures looking aft from the cabin door, either before or after the Luke Field incident?  I sure haven't, but you have a better collection than I.  I've heard stories that there was a bathrooom way in the back...

*************************************************************
From Ric

No stills, but there are a couple of quick movie shots looking aft at the time of the first attempt.  I haven't seen anything that dates from after Luke Field.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:04:26 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: NOONAN'S SEAT

Oh yeah, and about the bathroom...

Normally the lavatory in the Model 10 was behind a partition which was just aft of the cabin door.  Earhart's ship had that partition and the "can" was almost certainly in the usual place.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:09:53 EST
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Saipan Island..........

Unfortunately, Bob Cole's opinion is lacking in historical accuracy. Bob stated, when referring to Saipan, "the Marines were not there."

Not so. The Marine Corps was responsible for the capture of Saipan, with the assistance of the US Army.

On June 15, 1944, under the command of Lieutenant General Holland M. Smith, USMC, the 2nd Marine Division, the 4th Marine Division and the 27th Infantry Division, US Army, conducted an amphibious assault on the island of Saipan.  The invasion force totaled 71,000 men.  The island was secured on July 9, 1944, after the 27th Division sustained approximately 4,000 causalities and the two Marine divisions suffered approximately 12,000 casualties.

After Saipan was secured, U.S. Navy Seabees constructed the huge airfields from which the B-29 Superforts bombed Japan.  When the airfields were operational, the Army Air Forces were given control of Saipan and the strikes against Japan commenced.

As a matter of fact, the 27th Division, U.S. Army, after lacking in performance during the invasions of Makin and Eniwetok, was again lacking in it's performance under fire, and in the assault, on Saipan. Their lack of military performance forced Lieutenant General Holland M. Smith to relieve the 27th Division commander, Major General Ralph C. Smith, U.S. Army, of his command on June 24.

The performance of the 27th Division was personified in the memoirs of Major General L. R. Jones, U.S.M.C, as related in Allan R. Millett's book, Semper Fidelis, The History of the United States Marine Corps. General Jones stated in his memoirs, "When one Army Colonel complained to the Marine counterpart on his flank that his men were being hit with friendly fire, the Marine's response was typical: "Goddam you, in order to shoot at you, I'd have to reverse every weapon 180 degrees, and you'd still be out of range!!"

Bob Cole's father without doubt arrived on Saipan after the assault and after the assault forces were withdrawn.

The Marines were on Saipan.  If anyone found AE's Electra during or after the assault on Aslito airfield, (a prime objective) or what someone said they found, that's another story.

I agree with TIGHAR.   No one found the Electra on Saipan.  AE and FN landed on, and perished on Nikumaroro Island.

Love to mother,
Roger Kelley, #2112
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:11:47 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Niku sextant box

Re: Following quotes...

Yes, worrisome.  I would think he would have mentioned the numbers in such a statement.  But you must be right.  Not considered "distinguishing marks."

>Again, TIGHAR FLASH 12/8/98:  Commander Nasmyth said: "As the sextant box
>has no distinguishing marks..."  No stencilled 3500?  No 1542, possibly
>handwritten?  Was he looking at the same sextant box Gallagher described?
>*************************************************************
>>From Ric
>
>Yes, almost certainly.  It seems apparent that Nasmyth did not consider the
>numbers to be "distinguishing marks."  Curious indeed.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:39:01 EST
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Reply to Cam Warren

Cameron Warren writes:

>Skimming through the pile of TIGHARMAIL accumulated over the holidays, I
>noticed a certain amount of fairly reasonable potshots taken at The
>Royal Churl himself (Ric, for those of you who are more loyal than
>perceptive). And a lot of heart-warming support reminiscent of the Beany
>Baby crowd. (Impressive! They didn't teach Charisma 101 when I went to
>school - I think it was a '60s thing, like bombing the university
>physics lab in the interests of World Peace).

Hey Cam, you could do us all a favor by not being so condescending to the rest of us who give TIGHAR our support.  We are not all part of the "Beany Baby crowd", nor are we mindless brainwashed followers.  Rather, most of us are intelligent, educated, and logically thinking folks who have concluded, based upon the scientific approach and the evidence (such as it is) presented by TIGHAR, that there is a good possibility the TIGHAR scenario could be lead to solving the AE mystery.  Have you got a better scenario?  The uncalled for and unsubstantiated attacks not only demean TIGHAR and it's membership, they demean yourself.

You wrote:

>Not to be ungrateful - Ric DOES share information willingly when asked
>politely, although ACCEPTING anything not conforming to his Earhart
>scenario is a different matter - but sactodave has a point or two.

This is an interesting point you make.  TIGHAR has and will continue to share our information with not only the members, but the public at large.  To date, I cannot remember much, beyond the WInslow Reef expedition, that you, Sactodave, Strippel, and other critics of the TIGHAR scenario have shared with TIGHAR and the Forum.  All of you may have significant research results, but none of it seems to have been offered up to the Forum for our consideration.

If you, Sactodave, or anyone else has something significant to offer, other than sarcasm and condescending remarks, then please by all means post it up to the Forum.  If you guys have some hard evidence that points in a different direction than that presented by TIGHAR to date, you will be surprised at how fast TIGHAR and the rest of us will change our tune.  The only criteria is that any evidence must be credible and be able to pass the test of scientific scrutiny.  In fact, we change our tune all the time as new information comes in, and we freely admit when part of our theory no longer passes the test.

It is not productive for you, Strippel, and sactodave to simply sit on the sidelines taking electronic potshots at TIGHAR without providing a basis for your actions.  You state that some of these potshot are "fairly reasonable" but this is not the case if they are not backed up, and this is the part that few of the potshotters are willing to do.  You, Strippel, and sactodave all smugly make like the TIGHAR members are being led like lambs to slaughter, yet you fail to offer up any alternative information, choosing only to say vague things like (and I do not mean for these to be direct quotes) 'a lot of researchers have uncovered evidence that TIGHAR ignores', and 'a lot of people who know more about AE than you do' etc. without any specifics.  If you guys were less combative, and had something to offer in terms of furthering the search for AE, you will win us over far faster than by calling us all a bunch of nincompoops.

You tout the following as having contributed to the search for AE:

>Rollin Reineck has been mentioned, deservedly. Joe Gervais is still
>collecting every scrap of info about Earhart. Your nemesis Bill Prymak
>doesn't quit either, nor does Dick Strippel. All these, and many more,
>have contributed in varying degrees - they just don't beat their chests
>as loudly as the leader of the T-Gang.

No doubt these folks have worked hard at solving the mystery, but the only arena some of them beat their chests vigorously is in the venomous attacks against TIGHAR.  I am not sure what we did to deserve such bile, but as far as I can see it is unwarranted.  If our only sin has been being able to beat our chests louder than the rest, we stand guilty, and their attacks are only sour grapes.

If, however, there are other sins which deserve the venom you guys spew, then please let me and the rest of the TIGHAR membership know what they are, in detail, and let us decide if Ric is the devil incarnate.  In any case, please stop implying that the TIGHAR membership a bunch of boobs.  We are not.  If the members find Ric guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors, we will unseat him by abandoning the organization, or perhaps put you in his place to run the show.  I think you would find out that the flock is not so docile and Ric's seat is more like a crucible.

Again, you wrote:

>I'd be delighted if you could announce (truthfully this time) "The Mystery
>Is Solved!".

Thanks for reminding us of what TIGHAR said in 1992.  Perhaps the statement was a bit premature, but Ric felt confident saying it at the time, and it has nothing to do with being truthful or untruthful.  A lot of research has gone under the bridge since then, and I am pretty sure that Ric admits that he would not say the same thing today in exactly the same way.  However, nothing has come to light during the intervening years that would render that statement false,  Quite the contrary, in fact, as I believe what we have uncovered during the last 6 years works strongly in favor of our theory. Granted, no smoking gun yet, but has anyone got something better?  If so, bring it to light on the Forum.

If your statement is really true, then I suggest that you take a more positive attitude toward TIGHAR and what we are doing.  If you contribute meaningfully, TIGHAR will respond.

And lastly you wrote:

>Meanwhile, cut us poor, under-financed and un-loved grubbers a little
>slack.

Besides the fact that you, sactodave, and strippel have gotten considerable slack from the Forum moderator, I want you to know that what you wrote sounds like a pretty good description of the average TIGHAR member.  It has only been through banding together into an organization that we have been able to achieve any results, followed by stature, media attention, funding, and then further results.  Yes, it is a self amplifying circuit driven by a healthy membership and strict adherence to scientific principles.  If you really feel that dispossessed, stop fighting against us and join our effort.

LTM
Andrew McKenna  #1045C
*************************************************************

From Ric

In reading Andrew's posting I was struck by the uncanny similarity of a portion of it to another "posting" written long ago.

In 1320, in a place called Arbroath, Andrew's ancestors (and mine) drew up a document to be sent to the Pope explaining how they felt about their leader King Robert Bruce.  It says, in part:
 
"To him we are bound... by his merits, that our freedom may be still maintained, and by him, come what may, we mean to stand. Yet if he should give up what he has begun...we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our king."

Not that I would ever compare myself to The Bruce, but I think that Andrew is expressing the same principle - that any real leader of free people is, in fact, the humblest of servants.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:41:25 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Gerald Gallagher's father

The search for Gerald Gallagher's family and, hopefully, living members, is in progress... one phase of it at any rate.  The new information you've provided will be a great help.  Naturally, I'll pass along anything we learn

>***************************************************************
>>From Ric
>
>Yeah, we have enough to do a search.  Just a matter of finding the time.  His
>name was Gerald Hugh Gallagher ("Irish" was Gerald Bernard Gallagher).  We
>don't know where the Gallagher's came from in England but we do know that
>young Gerald attended Stonyhurst College and their records can probably give
>us what town he came from.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:09:33 EST
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Gerald Gallagher - Stonyhurst College

Ref: Vern's email about extra Gallagher info. and your response, Stonyhurst College is in Lancashire - not a million miles from me.

If you haven't already seen it, the college has a web page at:- www.stonyhurst.ac.uk

In your experience, do academic establishments such as this allow access to their student records ?  What tact should I take ?

Simon #2120

***************************************************************

From Ric

I would urge that you and Vern coordinate your efforts so that we don't look as disorganized as we are.  I have no idea whether the college will release the information we're looking for.  All we can do is ask.   Fortunately, we got a ton of good press in England recently about the files Kenton and I found at Hanslope, so that can't hurt.  Here are the specifics we have:

Gerald Bernard Gallagher (born July 6, 1912) attended Stonyhurst College from July 1924 to July 1930.  His achievements there are listed as -
School Certificate
Matriculation
Gymnastics Team
Corporal O.T.C.

From there he went on to Cambridge University (Downing College) from October 1930 to June 1934.  Achievements -
College 1st Crew 1933, 1934
Henley Crews 1933 and 1934
1st M.B.  Dec. 1932
2nd M.B. Part 1, June 1933
He received a B.A. (3rd Class) Ordinary Degree in June 1933.

From there he went to St. Bartholomew's Hospital Medical School from January to June 1935 but apparently dropped out abruptly and, in September 1935 began "Studying agriculture on farm with Mr. G. Butler, Maiden Hall, Bennets Bridge, Co. Kilkenny, Ireland"

The next summer he was accepted by the Colonial Service and went back to Cambridge for three semesters of special training for a posting to the Western Pacific High Commission.  He sailed for the Pacific in June 1937.

His mother was Edith Annie Clancy Gallagher.  At the time of his death she was living in London doing war work.  She had two children, Gerald and a younger son Hugh.  Gerald died on Gardner and Hugh was killed in a wartime bombing raid on Malta.  Edith had a sister, known to us only as "Miss Clancy" who lived at Clanmere, Graham Road, Malvern, Worcs., England.  Miss Clancy was to be the recipient of Gerald's personal effects when they were shipped home. These were to include a photo album found with his things on Gardner Island. It would be nice to find that album.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:32:32 EST
From:         Bob
Subject:      Re: Noonan And The Radio

I have a vague recollection of something on the forum, a couple of months ago, about a Noonan radio license.  I believe I recall that someone said he had an FCC Radiotelegraph Second Class License.  If this were true, that means besides the radio theory he would have needed to know to pass the test, he would also have needed to pass a 15 words per minute CW (Morse Code) test, both sending and receiving.  In the 30s all Pan Am pilots were required to get that license.  I don't think the Navigators or Flight Engineers were.  If Noonan had that license, he got it on his own.

In later years, I know the FCC only required a Third Class Restricted Permit to operate an aircraft radio on voice.  Filling out a form was all that was required to get that Permit.  I don't know what year that requirement went into effect.

LTM,
Bob
***************************************************************
From Ric

An FCC Radiotelegraph Second Class License?  Do we know that?  JHam?  How say you?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:06:05 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Sextants, Reprise

>The sextant box in question is just an example of what an old nautical sextant
>box looks like.  we have been puzzling over whether or not it has dovetailed
>corners (like the box found on Niku and the Pensacola box that belonged to
>Freddie).  Hard to tell from the photo.

I think you will find that most wood boxes of this sort have dovetailed corners. It's about the only way to make a nice, sturdy corner and easy to do once you have the proper equipment.  I've seen, in years past, very ordinary boxes made with dovetailed corners -- even boxes to ship smoked and/or salted fish!  These boxes, made of very low-grade wood, even had a sliding lid fitted into grooved side pieces.

***************************************************************
From Ric

The only thing that makes me think that the dovetailing was unusual is Commander Nasmyth's comment on August 11, 1941:

"...all I have been able to find out is that the make of the box - that is - the dovetailing of the corners - makes it appear to be of French origin.

This is the same guy who doesn't consider the numbers on the box to be distinguishing features.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:16:36 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      The Gallaghers

I just realized that you had not indicated the source of the information related to our Gallagher's father.  I presume it was something found during the recent mission to England.

What about the personal effects found on Niku after Gallagher's death? Again, I presume there was some record of these items being found in Gallagher's house on Niku.  And, I presume, that the sextant, pilot's license, log book, and other items were not found at Hanslope Park.

Was there indication of what had been done with the personal effects?  I expect they were delivered to some family member.  Do we know who and where that person was at the time?

Searching for Gallaghers

John Thompson <JMGThompson@compuserve.com> lives in Derry in N/W Ireland. He says Gallagher is a surname peculiar to Derry and Donegal.  Donegal is just three miles from Derry.  John has indicated a definite interest in attempting to track down the Gallaghers -- both our "Gallagher-of-Niku" and That "Gallagher-of-the-field" where Amelia landed after her solo crossing of the Atlantic.  Any information we have on any of the Gallaghers will help John in his search.

We hope a Gallagher search may lead to some new insight into where the bones were found on Niku in 1940.  It will also be interesting to discover whether there is a relatively close connection between "Gallagher-of-Niku" and the "Gallagher-of-the-field."  If so, it is a really amazing coincidence!

**************************************************************

From Ric

I think my earlier posting answered most of these questions.  Let me know if you have more.

No artifacts are kept at Hanslope Park.  Nothing there but paper.  Only a very few of Gerald's personal effects were sent home after his death.  Most of his stuff was auctioned off to settle his debts.  However, there was a photo album which supposedly came home and was probably sent to his mother's sister's address, as I mentioned in my posting.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:34:25 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Itasca's Smoke

"The Mysteries of Amelia Earhart," on "The History Channel" cleared up a very minor point that had bothered me for some time.  We know AE and Fred were close to Howland on the morning of July 2, 1937.  The island is small, low and difficult to see.  But why did they not see that column of black smoke rising above the Itasca?

The film clip shows that it was NOT that way at all.  There was no column of black smoke rising high above the Itasca!  The smoke was blowing horizontally across the ocean and scarcely rising above the stack.  From a distance, it would have looked like another bit of cloud on the horizon.

I wonder if the various bits of black & white film included in the program were all for real?  Of course, we recognize some of it, including the Lae boarding and takeoff scenes.  And there were media people on Howland.  Some were in the Itasca radio room and recognized Amelia's voice.  Whether or not the scene of Itasca billowing black smoke is for real, we know there was a wind of about 25 knots.  The smoke would have blown horizontally as shown.

****************************************************************

From Ric

No Vern.  Not 25 knots.  Observations taken at Howland that morning were:

Surface - ESE at 16 knts
1,000 ft - ESE at 15 knts
2,000 ft - E at 17 knts

The sky was five-tenths obscured by cumulus clouds whose bases were at 2,650 feet.

These observations were reported by Richard Black, the Dept. of Interior representative.

As for the authenticity of the photo, it was obtained by TIGHAR from Frank Stewart who was the Quartermaster aboard Itasca.  It seems to have been taken at Howland.  At least the handwritten notation on the reverse of the original print says "Servicing Howland", but there is some question as to when the photo was taken.  Itasca serviced Howland several times in those years and without a date on the photo it's hard to be sure that it was taken on that particular trip.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:44:18 EST
From:         Dustoff
Subject:      Characters

As a no talent, but aspiring novelist, I note with interest the variety of rich and intriguing characters that occasionally pop-up on the forum, cause a stir, and fade to obscurity and/or discredit.  They are terrifically entertaining, and knowing how well you write, well, I was just wondering: Do you make these guys up?  Will we see them in the movie version, perhaps played by you in various forms of disguise?  Are there really SactoDaves, and Stripples, and Cams, etc,etc. out there???  Really?   Come on now, you'll feel better if you confess.

Best, Dustoff1  2131

*************************************************************

From Ric

Lord, I wish I was that creative.  I could just sit here and write novels instead of bashing about the Pacific.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:42:54 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Sextants, Reprise

After this, I'm going to leave this sextant thing alone, BUT, at http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/advert/da246.htm there is a nice picture of a German sextant, with box (described below) (emphasis added).  It doesn't specify age or era...  How does it compare with the known FN sextant box?

German-made for the American market, the sextant is marked only "Eugenes Fabricat". A paper trade label inside the box lid reads "Negus Nautical Instruments, 69 Pearl Street, New York". 3 ring frame with shaped wooden handle, silvered scale and vernier with 6" radius. The short telescope has a 1 1/8" objective and draw tube focus; the long telescope is 7 1/2" long, with drawtube focus; the sighting tube is 3 1/4" long. A screw-on sun filter fits all three tubes. The mirrors are fine and the movements are smooth, but all the filters have been removed. The black finish on the brass is poor. The rectangular fitted box has dovetailed joints and is fully equipped with adjustment tool, sun filter, the two telescopes and sighting tube.

There's another one (English - WWII vintage) at
http://www.chronometer.net/nav.htm

W.W. II Merchant Marine English Sextant. W.W. II era navigation sextant by Henry Hughes & Son Ltd.. 6 inch Radius with several scopes, oil, miniature screwdriver and sundry accessories. Appears to be complete and in good condition (The arm is somewhat stiff but moves back and forth accurately). Complete with original Rating Certificate dated 2/28/45 is framed inside top lid. Box with brass hardware is stamped "WARTIME CASE". Nautical retailer's decal from London on inside. There is a place for batteries and light that illuminate the scale. It also has provenance. The sextant comes with what appears to be original owner's paperwork consisting of invoice dated 3/28/45 made out to M.C. Klein, 3rd Officer of "SS George Dewey". There is also a customs form dated 4/16/45 to the same person whose address is listed as W. 20th St., NYC and indicating he had sailed from Whales (sic).

LTM, jon

***************************************************************

From Ric

Very interesting.  Although only a corner of the box is visible, the box pictured with the German sextant looks identical to the Pensacola box, right down to the little closure hooks.  The sextant in the Pensacola box is also German but from a different manufacturer (Ludolf rather than Eugenes). Questions, questions.  I wonder if there are any numbers written on the Eugenes Fabricat box?  I wonder if that is the original box or whether the box may have been provided by the New York importer?  If Negus Nautical Instruments routinely supplied boxes for their imported German sextants (from various manufacturers) we could have our source for the Pensacola box.  Is Negus still in business?  Can we get somebody to give us more info and maybe some more photos of the Eugenes box? Somebody want to run with this?  It's worth chasing.

I couldn't get the URL for the British sextant to work.

Good work Jon.
LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:44:34 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: T Tracks back issues

Ric asked

>Anybody else think that this would be a good idea?  It would take a little
>time and hassle to set up, but if the interest is there we're happy to do it.

Yes!. Go for it!

Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:50:16 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: NOONAN'S SEAT

Ric wrote

>No stills, but there are a couple of quick movie shots looking aft at the time
>of the first attempt.  I haven't seen anything that dates from after Luke
>Field.

Of course not. The gummint didn't allow any photography of all that top-secret equipment back there!

Duh, Ric!
;)
****************************************************************
From Ric

(smacking forehead)  Of course!  Only Admiral Nimitz would have those photos! He probably took them with him to his grave.   That's why he told Fred Goerner that he was on the right track and should "keep digging for the truth."  Okay, now, how do we get a court order to exhume?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:57:10 EST
From:         Jon
Subject:      Re: Saipan Island...1957-1960

Ric; there is a great historic and geographic map of saipan, tinian, threw the marianas visitors bureau, p.o. box 861,saipan, m.p.96950 also very interesting 21 min. movie "an island called saipan" (american memorial park) some good pre ww2 vintage pacific footage. as for the record I bought a 1942 gen. staff car for 25.00, that was the gen holland smiths command car also carried many of the components to the" A" bomb from aslto airstrip to tanapag harbor,than 3 miles to tinian is. On the 4 and 5th of aug,1944, many marines, and seabees on saipan during and after the war, we were starting to build b-52 air strips threw out the pacific,
    thanks for your time
    jon
    luck, tx.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:12:48 EST
From:         Swal
Subject:      Re: T Tracks back issues

As regards this back issues - I would be very interested as a new subscriber. I have had an immense interest in this issue for a number of years.   Didn't really know there was an org.    Just got my computer about 3 months ago.

**************************************************************

From Ric

I hear ya.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:00:47 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Close Call

I've got to share this.  I just had the bejesus scared out of me by an email that came in via the website.  To whit:
----------------
You may be interested in the following.

Late in 1943 virtually an entire Marine Corps squadron of new F4U Corsair fighters of VMF-422 squadron went down during a 700-mile Pacific Ocean flight from Betio in the Tarawa Atoll to Funafuti, which was to be the staging area for the squadron's participation in the forthcoming attack on the Marshall Islands.  The 23 planes, flying in formation, were the victims of series of miscalculations in the preparations for the flight, one of which was a  failure to access an up-to-date weather report and forecast for the route.  The latter resulted in the planes unexpectedly encountering and being scattered by an intense storm.

Some of the pilots were never seen again, some were forced to ditch when they ran out of fuel, one crash landed on an intermediate island and at least one ditched deliberately in an effort to save another pilot who had ditched previously.

Although 22 of the Corsairs have been resting at the bottom of the Pacific since the disaster, seventeen of the pilots managed to survive after experiences involving much danger, hardship and heroism.  Nine of those survivors, now in their 70s and 80s, are still present as members of the VMF-422 veterans association.   I have given you here just the bare bones of the story of this disaster, which is little-known for several reasons.

If TIGHAR is interested in obtaining more and detailed information about the event, please contact me by E-mail at 71554.175@compuserve.com or by phone at (818) 342-9972.  I am in close contact with a member of the squadron association.

Sincerely, Daniel L. Bagott
-----------------------------------

Immediately I thought, "Wait a minute.  Old Pulekai on Funafuti told us that he had some notion that the wreckage he saw on Gardner was from the war, that it was a small plane, and that the pilot had been rescued.  Late 1943 was before the Coasties arrived at Gardner.  Only the Gilbertese colonists were there.  It's way, way off course but is there any chance that one of those Corsairs made it Gardner?  Could that be the source of Pulekai's story?"

I called Mr. Baggot and asked if any of the Corsairs had crash landed on an island.  He said, " Yes, as a matter of fact, one did.  The pilot was slightly injured but the natives treated him like a god and he was later rescued by a destroyer."  (At this point my stomach is not feeling so good.) "Do you know the name of the island?" I asked, trying to sound nonchalant. "No, but if you can hold on for a minute I'll go look it up."

After one of the longest minutes of my life he came back with, "It was called Niutao.  One other guy bailed out over an island called Nui but he drowned in the surf.  One pilot actually made it to Funafuti.  The rest apparently went down at sea."

Niutao and Nui are both in the Ellice Group (now the nation of Tuvalu) and lie directly north of Funafuti.  Whatever weather put them there would probably not put any of the flight 500 nautical miles to the northeast on Gardner.

Whew!  We have always been quite sure that no wartime aircraft were ever lost at Gardner/Nikumaroro because the island was inhabited during the entire period and no mention of an airplane loss has ever turned up in the island's records.  Still, for that period between Gallagher's death in September 1941 and the arrival of the Coast Guard in July of 1944 the colonists were pretty much on their own with only occasional visits from the authorities (such as the USS Swan's visits in 1942).  The wartime records we've been able to find show several aircraft missing and presumed lost at sea, but none lost on any island except Sydney where the C-47 went down in 1943.

But you can't prove a negative hypothesis.  We can't prove that there was not a wartime loss at Gardner.  We can only prove that we can't find any record of one.  It's hard to aggressively go after information which you hope isn't there, but that's what you have to do.  Sometimes it can be pretty scary.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:40:01 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Itasca's Smoke

OK, a breeze of 16 knots.  That's enough.  I'm satisfied that I now understand why AE and Fred did not see the Itasca's smoke.  An obvious possibility that had not occurred to me until I saw the picture.  The smoke was as futile as many other things done both in the air and on the surface.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:44:02 EST
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: T Tracks back issues

I too would be pleased with the availability of back issues!

Gene Dangelo #2211
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:46:04 EST
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: Noonan And The Radio

I have no record of any radio license. Ron Dawson checked with the FCC last year and got the following reply.

In a message dated 5/26/98 6:40:40 AM EST, LWOODS@fcc.gov writes:
Subj:    Re: radio license archives
Date:   5/26/98 6:40:40 AM EST
From:   LWOODS@fcc.gov (Laurel WOODS)
To:    Ron Dawson

The FCC does not maintain on-line historical information about licenses beyond the time that such information is needed for regulatory purposes. The issuance and expiration dates of the current license are all that is required to determine if a license is valid.  The FCC does maintain some records on microfiche, but these only go back in some cases to the 1970's.

Blue skies, -jerry
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:57:00 EST
From:         Craig Fuller
Subject:      Re: Close Call

The date of the VMF-422 F4U ferrying fiasco was 25 JAN 44. Sorry I didn't send that report to you, but felt is was so far away from Gardner that is was not important. What worries me is the several aircraft missing from Canton to Funafuti. The USN reports lack detailed information, but if the wreckage was later found on an island I would have expected the crew members to be no longer listed as missing.

Craig Fuller
TIGHAR # 1589C
Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research
***************************************************************
From Ric

As far as I know, everything that went missing between Canton and Funafuti was big (B-24, PBM. etc.).  Lots of wreckage, lots of people.  As with the Sydney Island crash, while the official record may take a while to find (thanks again Craig), an event that like that on a populated island lives in the folklore. We heard about a wreck on Sydney as soon as we started asking questions about the Phoenix Group.

There are also stories about a wreck on Gardner.  Not nearly as many, and nobody claims to have been there when the wreck happened.  All of the stories involve someone finding pieces from a plane which had arrived there at some some unknown time in the past.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:20:40 EST
From:         Jack J.
Subject:      Re: Saipan Island..........

Hurry!!! Say something nice about the Marines. Personally, I like the Marines. I did some work with the Marine Recon, and they are top notch combat infantry. Semper Fi, Mr. Kelley. Ric, jump in here quick, or grab your steel pot and pull it down around your ankles. Don't get in front of any fans, because there is a S--- storm brewing!!!!!!!
Jack J.  Semper Fi to all you mothers.

My favorite expression comes courtesy of the Marines, and it goes like this. To err is human, to forgive divine, NEITHER of which is Marine Corps policy. You gotta love em!

**************************************************************

From Ric

Let me get this straight.  You're asking a former Army officer to say something nice about the Marines.  Okay, anything for the cause. I'll give it a shot.

Whenever there's a need for a frontal assault, thank God for the Marines.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:37:38 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      The Gallagher Quest

I've E-mailed both Simon, in England, and John Thompson, in Ireland and made sure they had all the latest information on the Gallaghers -- and the Clancys. I included the information from your recent posting.

A geographical division of effort seems reasonable with each of them working their own side of the Irish Sea.  I expect that we will start with Stonyhurst college, in England, then try Cambridge.  Ireland is clearly the place to look for Gallaghers, in general, and probably Clancys as well. It's interesting to see that our Gallagher spent at least some time in Ireland on a farm!  I wonder where we'll find he was born?

I'm rather encouraged by the finding of our Gallagher's aunt, "Miss, Clancy" and an address for her, in the 1940s.  Both of Edith Gallagher's sons died in the 1940s.  Unless Hugh Gallagher already had children, that's the end of the line. But "Miss. Clancy" appears to have been an unmarried woman at the time.  If she was considerably younger than Edith, she just might still be living. And she may have later married and had children. Those children would still be around and might have that photo album.  There might also be that bundle of letters I keep hoping for!  A bunch of stuff related to the cousin they never knew who died somewhere in the South Pacific during the war. (During the war for England)

It's curious that the personal effects were sent to Miss. Clancy.  Had Gallagher's mother died?  And what of his father?  Somewhere in Africa, better to send the stuff to England.

I wonder when and where our Gallagher learned to fly?  And I wonder if his pilot's license, log book, etc. were among the things sent back to Miss. Clancy? Do we know when those things were sent back to England?  In 1941, I presume but there may have been a considerable delay.  That might have some bearing on when the address stated for Miss. Clancy was valid.

**************************************************************

From Ric

Gallagher's effects did not get shipped home to England until after the war. A memorandum dated 7 August 1945 from the Secretary of the WPHC directs "Messrs. W.R. Carpenter & Co. (Fiji) Ltd." to "collect four tin trunks from this office and forward them to the following address" (that being Miss Clancy's).

I would suppose that Edith asked that the stuff be sent to her sister because her own wartime address in London was liable to change.  We have no information about when Edith may have died.  I expect that the logbooks and any personal papers were included in the material sent home.  Best guess about where he learned to fly would be somewhere around Cambridge, perhaps associated with a university flying club.

The settlement of Gerald's estate was complicated by the fact that he had made his brother Hugh executor of his will.  Hugh was unavailable, being in the military and serving in Malta and subsequentally getting killed.  Ultimately, it was Harry Maude who obtained a power of attorney and got the mess cleared up.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:43:51 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Sextant boxes, prop hubs & Back Issues

1.  I now have a Ball Recording Sextant, Mark 1, Mod. O, U.S.Navy, BuShips, No. 4828, 1944, in a wooden box with dovetailed corners and brass hdwe. Don't know how it can help in the FN matter, but if you want details, dimensions, etc., just say so.  I will bring it down if  you'd care to look at it.  Can't find mirrors on it & haven't yet found out how the "ball recorder" works.

2.  Just read most of Roessler & Gomez "AE-Case Closed".  It's pretty awful as I expect you know, but did set me to wondering about the props on NR 16020.  Did repairs after the Luke Field accident include full feathering props with hubs over the bosses?  Pics in the History Ch. epic were so mixed up it's hard to tell.  R&G make quite an issue of how AE left props in low pitch when parked, causing pitch shaft exposure to elements with subsequent rust and galling.  Don't recall it was an issue in the WWII planes I flew. Think we always left 'em in low pitch on the ground.  Comment?

3.  Yes, I too would like back issues of T. Tracks

LTM

Bill Moffet #2156.

**************************************************************
From Ric

At your convenience, I'd like to see the box just for my own edification.

No, NR16020 never had full-feathering props.  Linda Finch's bogus 10E does.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:58:10 EST
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Winds

Observations taken at Howland that morning were:

Surface - ESE at 16 knts

1,000 ft - ESE at 15 knts

2,000 ft - E at 17 knts

Applying these winds to AE flightplan, what effect would we expect on AE's flight path to Howland?  Would she end up farther WNW than expected, or have I got it wrong?

Were these winds factored into the statistical analysis of most likely ending locations that was presented to us at the AE Symposium in Delaware a couple of years ago?

Just curious.

AMCK  1045C

***************************************************************

From Ric

We need to remember that these were the winds at Howland on the morning of July 2nd.  They may or may not resemble the winds encountered hundreds of miles to the west during the preceding night.  Also, whatever the winds, there is no reason to think that they blew the flight off course.  That's what a navigator does - keep the flight on course by adjusting the heading to compensate for winds.  There is no reason to think that Noonan was not able to assess the flight's progress by means of star sightings during the night.

The Monte Carlo projections done by Wagner Associates took all of the known factors into account but there were way to many unknown factors to permit a high degree of probability for any location.  The best they came up with was that the flight probably ended up south of Howland and perhaps a bit short of the line of position passing through Howland. (Do I have that right Randy?)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:13:31 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Sextants, Reprise

I guess I won't leave this alone just yet.

Interestingly, the British box has very similar hooks except that they point in the opposite direction from the German box.  Now, upon further examination of the first picture, I think there are essentially the same type hooks on the front of that box as well - what originally threw me off (besides the fact that you're looking straight down on it) was the locking mechanism which is clearly visible at the center of the front of the original picture.  However, at least one of the other boxes also has this feature in conjunction with the hooks, so apparently the box would not be kept locked all the time.  I will relocate the url for the Brit box and repost it - I must have copied it down wrong.

Thus far I haven't dug up anything on Negus, except that Negus seems to have been a distributor more than a manufacturer.  I'll root around and let you know what more I find.
LTM
jon

**************************************************************

From Ric

So the British box is similar too?  "Mr. Gatty" thought that the box found on Niku was probably British.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:25:04 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Goerner, Nimitz

Your reply to a posting on 1/3/99 was;

***********************************************

>From Ric
>
>(smacking forehead) Of course! Only Admiral Nimitz would have those
>photos! He probably took them with him to his grave. That's why he
>told Fred Goerner that he was on the right track and should "keep
>digging for the truth." Okay, now, how do we get a court order to
>exhume?

Since you brought it up, I have always wondered about Admiral Nimitz's quote in Goerner's book.

I hope I paraphrase it accurately:

"Now that you're going to Washington, Fred," he said, " I want to tell you Earhart and her navigator did go down in the Marshalls and were picked up by the Japanese."

When a person reads this, they can take it at face value or discount it as false.

If false, then;

1. Fred Goerner committed journalistic suicide by misquoting a famous person like Admiral Nimitz about such a famous disappearance as AE. If Goerner did misquote him, was it just to further his thesis on what happened to AE? If it was an intentional misquote, why would the Nimitz Museum house Goerner's papers?

2. If Fred Goerner's quote is correct then Admiral Nimitz lied. What would have been his motive to make a false statement like that?

3. If both Goerner and Nimitz were truthful, did someone intentionally give false information to Admiral Nimitz? Before Pearl Harbor Admiral Nimitz was chief of naval personnel, a position that you would not think he would have access to Ultra information from Safford's OP-20-G. When he took command of the Pacific Fleet in Dec. 1941 he did have access to Ultra ( code-breaking ) information. To make that statement truthfully, Admiral Nimitz would have had to rely on intelligence that someone gave him.

Is there more to this story that I haven't heard?

To maybe add a little to Howland island's history. The airfield and communications facility was judged destroyed by Japanese Naval Air Force raid on DEC. 9, 1941. That was followed up on DEC. 11 by boats from the 33rd Submarine Div. shelling the remaining installations.

Daryll
***************************************************************

From Ric

If you'll go back and read the entire account of Goerner's dealings with Admiral Nimitz the most logical explanation seems to be that Nimitz didn't really know any more than Goerner did.  Goerner had managed to convince Nimitz that Earhart had ended up in the Marshalls, etc. and the admiral was trying to direct Goerner to people whom he thought could provide the proof Fred needed. Nimitz succeeded in getting the doors opened for Goerner and Fred had high hopes that the Marines would finally come clean about what happened to Amelia. However, when push came to shove, nobody had any information.

Nimitz seems to have been as frustrated as Goerner and actually tried to talk some of his old comrades into telling Fred what happened.  They insisted, however, that they didn't know anything.  Do you really think that a five-star admiral would urge his fellow officers to disclose classified information to a newsman? If Nimitz knew the real story, why didn't he tell Goerner himself?

I have a little bit of (anecdotal) inside knowledge of this situation.  Back when he was Senior Curator of the USAF Museum, Jack Hilliard was a good friend of mine.  Odd as it seems, Jack was a Marine and in the 1960s had taken the brunt of Goerner's badgering about secret Earhart files.  We talked about it at length in his office at Wright-Patterson.  He went on and on about the frustration of trying to convince Goerner that the Marine Corps wasn't hiding anything because there was nothing to hide.

The best evidence, however, that Goerner himself ultimately did not believe that Admiral Nimitz knew what he was talking about is the fact that, after further research following the publication of his 1966 book, Goerner himself rejected the notion that Earhart had come down in the Marshalls.

Goerner, and Nimitz, became tangled in a web of anecdote that led to nothing but frustration.  Historical investigations like this almost always start with stories.   If they're true, or even partly true, good detective work will turn up documentation (as we have repeatedly demonstrated).  If they're not, all that turns up are more allegations and stories which have to be accommodated by an ever more complicated hypothesis.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:34:16 EST
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: Winds

Andrew McKenna wrote:-

>Applying these winds to AE flight plan, what effect would we expect on AE's
>flight path to Howland?  Would she end up farther WNW than expected, or have
>I got it wrong?
>Were these winds factored into the statistical analysis of most likely
>ending locations that was presented to us at the AE Symposium in Delaware a
>couple of years ago?

And part of Ric's response was:-

>Also, whatever the winds, there is no reason to think that they blew the
>flight off course.  That's what a navigator does - keep the flight on course
>by adjusting the heading to compensate for winds.  There is no reason to
>think that Noonan was not able to assess the flight's progress by means of
>star sightings during the night.

If I remember correctly from a Tracks article, I think we've established beyond reasonable doubt from radio signal strength / skip characteristics that the flight made it to quite close proximity to Howland (50 miles ?) - Fred seems to have done his wind compensation bit quite well. The flight seems to have fallen apart at the end in not being able to visually identify Howland.

One other question ref. the Itasca's smoke - would the ship necessarily have been producing smoke at the time ?  Wasn't she anchored at Howland ?

LTM
Simon #2120

***************************************************************
From Ric

Yes, it does seem that they got very close to Howland.  Probably within a 100 miles.  Maybe closer. The real problem, in my estimation, was that their failure to obtain a DF bearing on the Itasca (or vice versa) left them not knowing which way to turn on the line of position.

There's little doubt that the Itasca was indeed intentionally making smoke as an aid to Earhart.  Also, you can't anchor at Howland (or at Niku for that matter).  The reef drops away too steeply.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:59:50 EST
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Saipan Invasion and Search

A good friend of mine, Dick Hanna, was part of the Marine Corp force that invaded the island of Saipan during World War II.  He was a combat photographer and took part in the invasion and subsequent search of the island for captured American aircraft, etc.  I asked Dick about that search and he said he remembered it very clearly as he was asked to take picture of various sites, etc.  He is positive that no American aircraft of any type were found during that search.  He also told me that a group of civilian dressed experts were brought in by the Navy to look at human remains, etc.  He helped transport some of these people in the jeep that had been assigned to him.  He said they told him that the human bones they looked at were most likely those of natives due to their short stature.

Dick said that the Marine Division Commander was John C. Smith, not Holland M. Smith.  Holland Smith was the over all Commander.  He also said that the army participation was indeed very poorly lead and that eventually Marine noncommissioned troops, Sargents, etc. were assigned to lead the army forces because the army was failing so badly to meet their objectives.

While Dick Hanna is getting up in years he has one of the clearest memories of any person I know.  There is no doubt in my mind that what he remembers is correct.  If there are specific questions about the Saipan invasion and later search that the Forum members would like me to ask Dick I will be glad to do so.

Dick Pingrey 908C

***************************************************************

From Ric

I wonder if there were any reports written about the search for American airplanes, etc.?  That's the only way to get past the War of the Anecdotes.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:18:34 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Sextants, Reprise

I double checked the url for the British sextant, and it's:

http://www.chronometer.net/nav.htm

The page is mostly watches and such, but scroll down and you should find it. If you still can't get hooked up to it, try http://www.chronometer.net/
and then follow the lead to navigational items.

This sextant box is very clearly dovetailed, has the hooks, and it also has the lock assembly in the center.  Looks pretty close.  Do you by any chance have a picture of FN's sextant box?  If so, could you scan it and email me a copy?  Thanks!
ltm
jon

***************************************************************
From Ric

Okay, that works.  Tell you what we'll do.  We'll mount a new Research Bulletin on the website with photos of the Pensacola box and also images of other sextant boxes we've come across (such as this British one).  We should be able to get that done in the the next day or so.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:20:23 EST
From:         George Nelson
Subject:      Re: Saipan Island..........

Ashlito airfield was captured by units of the 2nd Battalion, 165th RCT on June 18, 1944 while the Army troops were capturing the southern portion of the island.  The 25th Marines of the 4th Division were on the northern flank of this Army unit.  It was only when the Army troops were driving north alongside the Marines that General Smith was relieved by Holland Smith.  The source of this information is United States Army in WW II, The War in the Pacific, Campaign in the Marianas, by Philip A. Crowl, Library of Congress Catalog Card No. 60-60000.

George 0580
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:05:08 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Winds

OK, let's get the real story straight.  Here are the speeds and directions the Itasca radiomen sent out to AE (time GMT, date July 2)

0858   NE@12
0929   NE@13
0959   NE@13
1029   ENE@12
1058   E@11
1129   E@11
1158   E@10
1228   ENE@6
1258   E@9
1400   E@8
1433   E@8
1533   E@6
1600   E@6

Speeds are in knots.  To convert to local time, subtract 11.5 hrs.  So 1600GMT = 0430 local time.

AT 0100GMT/2, Itasca reported ENE 14 at the surface, 18ENE at 1000', 19ENE at 2000', 24 ENE at 3000', 26ENE at 4000', 25 ENE at 5000', 30 knots ENE at 6000', 30 knots ENE at 7000', and 31 ENE at 9000.

The Itasca bridge logs indicate 11 knots E from 1100 to 1700 local time July 2, then ESE at 11 knots from 1800 - 2400 local time.  To convert to GMT time, add 11.5 hours.

I have no idea where the citing of the weather report below was obtained; perhaps the provider could shed some light on it.  A quick perursal through my records does not find a corresponding date/time.

As for the computer projections based upon the winds, AE most likely ended up SW of Howland, on the order of 100 miles or so, based upon the assumption of all dead reckoning navigation.  The calculations only go to the time that AE says "I must be on you but cannot see you", as there is no further information available anywhere to indicate what the plane directions were.  This time is about 1.5 hours prior to her last transmission, if I remember correctly.

**************************************************************
From Ric

The numbers I quoted

> Surface - ESE at 16 knts
>
> 1,000 ft - ESE at 15 knts
>
> 2,000 ft - E at 17 knts

are from Richard Black's report of observations he took on Howland on July 2nd.  As I recall the observations were taken at noon (but I can't double check that right now because my copy of Black's report is loaned out).

I think that it's important that we understand exactly what's going on here and what bearing these various observations may have on the Earhart flight. Itasca only knows what the wind is doing at Howland, so when it reports winds at the surface to Earhart during the middle of the night when she is still hundreds of miles to the west, that information may or may not resemble what is actually happening at her location and at her altitude.

In order to get winds aloft information, somebody has to release a weather balloon and track its progress optically.  For that you need daylight and a relatively clear sky.  The 0100 GMT July 2nd observation would have been taken at 13:30 local time on July 1st (subtracting 11.5 hours).  At that time Earhart had been in the air for only an hour and was about 2,400 miles away. Not a terribly relevant report.

Black's observations are more useful but stop at 2,000 feet because the cloud base was at 2,650 feet and, of course, he lost sight of the balloon.  The Itasca deck log observations don't quite agree with Black's (E at 11 knts versus ESE at 16 knts).   I don't know how to resolve that discrepancy.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:37:35 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Noonan and Radio

In response to speculation regarding Fred Noonan possibly having a radio license:

I am not an expert, by any means, on Bureau of Air Commerce/CAA regulations from this period... however, I do not believe Noonan would have had such a license.

Reasons:  The exam for the Second Class Radiotelegraph is a very tough one (I know, because I took it and passed it; I have the license) which focuses on a lot of technical matters and radio theory, with lots of formulas and math problems of a theoretical nature (and presented in a manner which will drive you out of your mind, because those who designed the test figured out every mistake you can make to get a wrong answer -- and four of the five choices are WRONG) which an airman simply does not need to know.  It also focuses, in another part of the exam (one of the Elements) on international communications practices such as the charge rate per word for radiograms, schedules of priority for message traffic, etc.etc.

In short, this license is the document which is required of shipboard radio officers.  For aircraft radio operators, aboard commercial aircraft, not only was the license required, but also an "Aircraft Radiotelegraph Endorsement."  This exam (which I studied for and could have easily passed, but due to a bureaucratic screw-up by the FCC I was not given the opportunity to take it) focuses on radio procedures aboard aircraft.... but it also contains a great many questions dealing with aerial navigation, particularly involving electronic nav-aids like the radio compass, Loran, radar, VOR, etc.

Now mind you, I took my exam many, many, many years after the period we are dealing with in the AE matter... but I suspect the character of the basic (no-aviation) Radiotelegraph exams was not much different.  I simply cannot imagine a pilot or even an aerial navigator taking such a test.  Recall that in the 1930s, radio aids to navigation were pretty much in their infancy.

I could perhaps see a navigator needing a Third-class Radiotelegraph license.  Much less technical stuff... plus, a much lower code speed requirement.

The third-class test has a requirement -- send and receive -- of 10 words per minute.  The Second class has a 20-wpm requirement (a quantum leap, I assure you...) and the aircraft radiotelegraph endorsement carries an additional morse proficiency requirement of 25-wpm (that's "shaggin' along," folks...).

What about a First-class?  That is only available to the holder of the Second, who has at least a six-months' service record aboard a seagoing vessel, plus the additional code requirement of 25-wpm send and receive. Without reading up on the rules a bit, I am not even sure there is any service history in aviation which qualifies one for the First Class.

There are not many Aircraft Radiotelegraph operators any more.  Most communication (almost all) is by single-sideband voice, and the radios are actually about 90% computer, which means there is no need for a technician to "tune" them any more... plus, you couldn't repair them in flight, today, if you wanted to.

In response to another recent posting asking why "quieter" VHF radio frequencies were not used on this flight:

There was no VHF aircraft radio in 1937.

VHF was largely developed by the British, for air combat purposes.  In fact, when the USAAF arrived in England in 1942, NO American plane carried VHF radios.  Once we discovered how superior the British crystal-controlled, fixed-channel VHF gear was to the "coffee grinder" high-frequency gear we had, the USAAF adopted the British radios outright... even had contracts let to duplicate them in the USA.  This was the famous SCR-522 radio... and, if you get the chance to actually touch one (they are getting to be rare antiques) you will note that the radios carry dual nomenclature tags:  US Army Signal Corps (black), and British Air Ministry (red). 

For whatever that is worth....

Any more questions?  I'll try to answer 'em.

73
Mike E.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:42:08 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Sextants, Reprise

A thought about a search for sextant boxes or other navigational instrument boxes -- maybe with numbers on them.  We might try a scatter-gun approach with a mailing and/or E-mail contact with everyone we found who might encounter such things:  Dealers, museums, etc.  Everything we can identify and continuing with others as we find them.  Someone may already have something.

A mailing or an E-mail, if an E-mail address is known, might be something
like:

                    *************************
                            BE ALERT!

for navigational instrument boxes with stencilled or handwritten numbers.
                  Especially numbers similar to 3500.

You may have the key to the mystery of what happened to Amelia Earhart
and her navigator, Fred Noonan, when they vanished in the South Pacific
in 1937.
                   **************************


If we can come up with a TIGHAR approved message, I'll do it.

***************************************************************

From Ric

You just did.  Go for it.  You might add, "For more information see the latest Earhart Research Bulletin on the TIGHAR website at http://www.tighar.org"

I'll get something mounted by tomorrow.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:51:57 EST
From:         Dave Kelly
Subject:      Winds aloft

Pilots and navigators are trained to cope with winds aloft. Yet, the wind velocitites may be stronger than originally forecast (been there..done that!)  I would imagine that a thin overcast, or some substantial cumulus clouds, with their associated turbulence and complete sky obscuration, would hamper a celestial navigation effort. There was little radio contact during the night hours, and Fred could have been, well, incapacitated, or asleep. At some time in the morning, there was a sun line calculated that provided the LOP.  It was at this time that navigational errors, unforecast winds, sky conditions, a low fuel state, and fatigue combined to create the mystery we now labor to solve.

**************************************************************

From Ric

Whether by good navigation or plain dumb luck ( I prefer the former explanation) the flight appears to have reached the general vicinity of Howland pretty much on schedule.   We have no evidence that cloud cover interfered with celestial observations during the night.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:56:27 EST
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      MISC

Ric wrote:

>Come to think of it, if the real point of what we're doing is to draw
>attention to something we feel is important then The Earhart Project is -
>ta da! - a publicity stunt.

Those on the home front also serve.  Put me down to also serve... on the home front that is...

Bare with me on that.   Do you suppose she was a poor speller on purpose.....?   That could be a crucial point.   Regards,  RC

***************************************************************

From Ric

You mean AE?  If AE ever spelled something incorrectly I'd bet that it was on purpose.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:23:52 EST
From:         Jack J.
Subject:      Re: Saipan Island

I intended that you, as the moderator and a gentleman, would smooth over the slight to the Marines in the posting that erroneously stated that the Marines were not present on Saipan. They did indeed make the very kind of frontal assault you mention in your "compliment." They are a sensitive bunch, and I think you may have stirred the cauldron rather than extinguish the flames. As long as you don't mind the controversy this old ARMY Sgt. (three hard stripes) will add his two bit worth.

As Paul Harvey says, "And heres the rest of the story."  The women on Saipan were told by their Japanese "protectors" that the US Marines would rape and brutalize them if they successfully invaded and took Saipan. Many of the women on Saipan went to the cliffs and threw themselves onto the rocks, and the sea below, rather than be captured by the invading US forces. The women of Saipan chose death over the possibility of going to bed with a Marine. And that's the truth!!!!

Getting back to AE. There was a story in the Cleveland Plain Dealer back in the early 1980s about a Marine Corps Intelligence Officer who directed two Marines to dig up two bodies on Saipan, after it was emancipated. When one of the Marines asked what the deal was, the officer purportedly asked the Marine if he had ever heard of AE. The officer concluded the conversation with "that is all I can say." Again, I am not now, nor have I ever been a conspiracy type. I will send you a copy of the story for your files if you so desire, sir. There is a little more to the story you may at least find interesting. If I remember correctly, there is a big sign at the front gate of Fort Benning that says "Follow Me." Well, sir, you can take the "point" in re "Marines on Saipan"---or NOT!!!!!!

Garonamo! (Was that the name of that Indian?) LTM
Jack J.

***************************************************************

From Ric

I trust that it has been made clear through several learned posts to the forum that the Marines were not only on Saipan but that the Army did not particularly distinguish itself in that action. On the other hand, I share the sentiments of the women of Saipan.

As a graduate of the Benning School For Boys I well remember the motto of "Follow Me!"  There was another lesser-known motto for the Officer Candidate School which was taken from scripture "And a little child shall lead them."

That Indian's name was Geronimo (the Spanish form of Jerome) and, as I'm sure you know, he seems to be the patron saint of the airborne but I, for one, do not jump out of perfectly good airplanes.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:12:10 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Shoes and such

One of the most intriguing elements of the artifacts found on Niku is the "Cat's Paw" heel and other shoe parts.

Was brainstorming with myself tonight about the shoe parts, and who could have left them there if Amelia did not, trying to shoot down any other theory that might result in American-made shoe parts being found on that island.

It occurs to me that a Japanese or other Asian person might wear shoes of a size that we of the Anglo race might consider to be that of a woman.

Question 1) Do we know if ANY Asians were on Niku in the 1930s? Not only Japanese military, but fishermen, adventurers, explorers, merchant marine, etc.

Question 2) Do we know if the company that made the "Cat's Paw" shoe heel exported their products to any Asian countries?

You can see where I'm headed here... a Chinese merchant mariner got his shoes fixed in Hong Kong (with "Cat's Paw" heels) then later fell overboard near Niku.

Or, a Japanese submarine put a small patrol on Niku to examine the island. The sub sailed off, had an accident and sank, and the patrol was marooned.

Yes, the brain is working overtime tonight. The prime question is, was the "Cat's Paw" heel exported to the Orient in the 1930s? Was it even exported to Hawaii or Australia?

LTM,
Tom #2179
***************************************************************
From Ric

The shoe was judged by the Biltrite Company to be a woman's shoe because of the tightness of the stitching holes in the sole and the small diameter of the brass shoelace eyelet.

We don't know whether or not Cat's Paw heels were exported but if we're going to construct hypothetical scenarios for which there is no evidence whatsoever we can have an American woman stowaway who becomes despondent jump overboard from a passing ship only to wash up on the shores of Nikumaroro and die there.

That is only marginally more fantastic than the Japanese patrol from a submarine  marooned on Nikumaroro, one of whom happens to being wearing an American woman's shoes.

Some time ago when we were first trying to evaluate the bones and artifacts found by Gallagher I constructed a tongue-in-cheek scenario which attributed the material to the wreck of the Norwich City.  It's pretty silly but it does illustrate the lengths can go to to find alternative explanations.

The Story of Cecil

Cecil was fed up.  For months he had endured the jibes of his fellow sailors. Although of short, stocky, muscular build, he preferred to wear women's blucher-oxford style shoes.  What business was it of theirs? Cecil loved those shoes. He had even had the heels replaced last year when he was in the States. The only thing he loved more was his sextant, which he carried with him everywhere.

Then came that terrible night when the ship went aground at Gardner Island. Crashing seas and fire and panic all around.  But Cecil saw this as his big chance.  Grabbing his blucher-oxfords, his beloved sextant, a Benedictine bottle, a spare pair of shoes, and a can of food - he leapt into the pounding surf.  Reaching the beach, he hid in the bushes while the other 24 survivors searched high and low for anyone else who might have made it ashore. Finally, they accepted that poor Cecil must have been among the eleven crew members who drowned.  Over the next five days Cecil remained hidden and was careful not to be spotted by the two ships which arrived to rescue his shipmates.

When they finally left, Cecil was at last at peace.  He lived among the crabs and the Boobies, prancing about the island in his blucher-oxfords and playing with his sextant until that horrible day out at the reef edge when he slipped  nd dropped the sextant into the ocean.  Life just wasn't worth living.  The empty box was a constant reminder of his heartache.  The end came peacefully, witnessed only by his pet turtle Stanley who also died of a broken heart.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:16:13 EST
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Re: Saipan Island.....

Ric wrote:

> Let me get this straight.  You're asking a former Army officer to say
> something nice about the Marines.  Okay, anything for the cause. I'll give it
> a shot.
>
> Whenever there's a need for a frontal assault, thank God for the Marines.

Oh man! (As I stomp my foot on the ground.)  Now don't get me started....

Let's find Amelia, copy that??

Roger Kelley, #2112

**************************************************************
From Ric

(uh oh)  Just kidding - uh - Semper Fi - uh - Halls of Montezuma - uh - A Few Good Men.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:18:39 EST
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Winds at Destination

It would appear that the winds observed near the expected time of AEs arrival were shifting from out of the southeast toward the northwest as you went higher in altitude.  If most of the latter portion of the flight was at or about 10,000 ft the wind could have been out of the northwest or even the north.  This might well put the airplane south of the intended track.

Dick Pingrey 908C

**************************************************************

From Ric

I'll buy that.  (I just love knowledgable speculation that fits our hypothesis.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:22:49 EST
From:         Jim Tweedle
Subject:      Re: Editing

Suzanne Tamiesie wrote:

>I heartily endorse G. Kastner's suggestion and Pat's inclination to more
>vigorously edit the forum to eliminate those postings which have no scientific
>basis.
>**************************************************************
>From Ric
>Yes Ma'am.

From Jim,

Why??

Don't  most of us have enough sense to edit for ourselves?

The primary benefit of free speech is that it reveals the character of the speaker.

LTM, Jim
**************************************************************

From Ric

Exactly.  And once the character of some speakers has been revealed it becomes apparent that the best thing to do, in the interest of getting the important work done, is to edit them.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:49 EST
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Winds
ou wrote:



Ric wrote:

>The real problem, in my estimation, was that their failure to obtain a
>DF bearing on the Itasca (or vice versa) left them not knowing which way
>to turn on the line of position.

Makes all the more compelling the argument that Noonan would have suggested that A.E. turn South on the LOP.

Simply looking at his charts & calculating the distances involved, against estimates as to amount of fuel remaining & rate of fuel consumption, together with the difficulty anticipated in navigating a course back to the Gilberts (since he did not have any way of accurately determining exactly where they were), the most simple & direct course would be to follow the Sun Line he had charted to the SE (the only accurate information that he could presume to rely upon) which, even if they were already South of Howland, would lead them into the Phoenix Islands showing on his charts, giving them their best (& only) chance of any landfall, if in fact they had already "missed" Howland!

Turning North on that Sun Line, if they were already North of Howland, would have provided only open ocean, with the Marshalls too far to the NW & out of their fuel range to even hope for any alternate landfall in that direction.

One other question, if in fact the winds they encountered during the night, west of Howland, were blowing towrd the WNW, wouldn't Noonan have calculated a "bias" toward approaching Howland from South of the island rather than from North of the island?

Don Neumann
***************************************************************
From Ric

Many people have postulated that Noonan would have offset his intersection with the advanced Line of Position so that he would know for sure which way to turn on the line.  There is, of course, no way to know whether or not he did that.  But the plan was to use DF to provide the final fine-tuning of the navigation.  By the time it became apparent that they would get no help from DF they were already at the line.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:43:55 EST
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Dem Bones

Seems to me that tracing the bones in the kanawa box ought to be high on the to-do list at this point, given the info turned up in England recently and the anthropological analysis. What's happening and is anything needed to help move things along?

blue skies, -jerry

**************************************************************

From Ric

Much is happening and much help is needed.  I've just completed a detailed synopsis of the work planned for the coming year, complete with dates, team composition, and costs.  within a couple of days, after some final tweeking, I'll be posting it to the forum, mounting it on the website, and hiring a dozen T-6s to write it in the sky over major cities.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:48:08 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Sextants, Reprise

I've captured images of most of the sextants I've looked at, in case some are gone from the auction sites, so after you get the section set up I'll email you any that you might not have.  I think you've got or seen most of the really good ones.  Also, I've been looking into Negus, and apparently he started in New York making a "log" device (counter with a spinner on the end of the line) during the 1900's.  I've found a few references to such things, but have nothing yet on the company itself.

Likewise with Ludolph, I've found a couple of British/English auction houses on line with Ludolph sextants for sale (alas no pictures), but one which described: "A W.Ludolph brass lattice frame sextant/German, 1920's/Signed by W. Ludolph A.G. Bremerhaven, Welag XXII 301, with silvered scale from 0 - 165, [...], with accessories in a fitted mahogany case with certificate dated 2/7/23."  Another site referenced Ludolph in Hamburg, but no time frame on the instrument.  Ludolphs do seem to be well regarded though, the Ludolphs were running about a hundred pounds (sterling) more than the English sextants at the same auction houses.

LTM,
jon

***************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks Jon.  So far I have the British box, the other German box, and Bill Moffet stopped by today with his USN WWII box which we photographed.  And of course we have photos of the Pensacola box.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:55:13 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      winds aloft

Are we spending too much time on this winds aloft problem? While it is a good exercise in applying the lessons of a disciplined thought process, I'm not too sure it will push us any farther toward a solution of the AE/FN mystery.

I would think the winds aloft issue is moot -- AE and FN didn't make it to Howland.  It is certainly a good sidebar to the overall story and important when the tale is told chronologically.  But in the end, whether the winds aloft were 11 or 14 knots from the east-northeast or from due northeast is academic.  If  TIGHAR eventually proves its AE/FN-Niku theory, are the exact winds aloft that important, especially since AE/FN may have wandered around for up to 4-5 hours before they put the Electra down?

Determining the winds aloft would be essential if you were trying to determine a likely landing spot for the aircraft, but we already have one.  So, what are you getting at?

LTM, who is confused about winds aloft

Dennis McGee #0149
****************************************************************

From Ric

I think we tend to chew on things like the winds aloft and what happened and didn't happen on Saipan because we're constantly reviewing and re-examining the scant available evidence to make sure that we haven't missed something. Also, the forum is a beast that must feed.  Sometime we have new information to chew on and digest.  When we don't we tend to regurgitate old stuff and chew it some more.  (Sorry about the imagery.  It just sort of came out that way.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:56:55 EST
From:         Duncan MacKinney
Subject:      OT: Amy Johnson

OK, I know this is off-topic but I couldn't resistasking  such a knowledgeable forum.

Recently in its daily  history segment, my local paper mentioned that pioneer aviatrix Amy Johnson had been lost on that day in 1941. A quick search of the WWW revealed only the following reference:
http://www.things.org/music/al_stewart/history/flying_sorcery.html.

Can your readership point me to a more comprehensive history (either WWW or
print)?

By the way, a quick look at the Purdue University archives suggests that AE
knew Johnson - but I guess you already knew that.

Duncan
Wollongong, Australia
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:07:59 EST
From:         Yancy Qualls
Subject:      Re: Saipan Island

"I, for one, do not jump out of perfectly good airplanes."

When was the last time you saw a perfectly good airplane?

Yancy Qualls
Lockheed Martin

***************************************************************
From ric

Why do I do this to myself?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:06:02 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Geronimo II

Ric said:

>That Indian's name was Geronimo (the Spanish form of Jerome)
>and, as I'm sure you know, he seems to be the patron saint of the airborne but
>I, for one, do not jump out of perfectly good airplanes.

I did . . .once.  Fortunately I did not blow chow at about 5,000 feet, which is a common practice I'm told. But I did see AE's profile in a corn field below as I screamed through 10,000 feet, shook hands with FN while plummeting past the 6,000-foot level and passed a errant sextant box just before I pulled the ripcord.  The jump plane was a Beech King Air, N16020.  What a trip, huh?

LTM, who also refuses to jump from perfectly good airplanes
Dennis McGee #0149
***************************************************************
From Ric

I get this awful feeling that I've started another off topic thread.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:40:44 EST
From:         Pamela
Subject:      Re: Geronimo II

Our ancestor Geronimo beleived that nothing could touch him as far as harm.  He had a vision in his vison quest to that effect.  Bullets seemed to bounce off this great warrior.

That's why when we jump etc. we yell Geronimo.

This is for whoever cares.

Love to Mother
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:48:44 EST
From:         Tom van Hare
Subject:      Re: Sextants, Reprise

Ric wrote:

> Moffet stopped by today with his USN WWII box which we photographed.

Quick question: are there any numbers stenciled on the outside of the USN box and what year was it issued/produced?

Thomas Van Hare
***************************************************************
From Ric

Nope.  No markings of any kind except a brass plaque attached to the front with model number, serial, USN, etc. engraved on it.  The instrument and box (serial number of sextant was on the plaque on the box) were manufactured in 1944.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:52:50 EST
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: Sextants, Reprise

You might find this interesting and/or even useful. Today at my school, a fellow teacher (who was also, by coincidence, a former Navy Radioman) gave me an unusual catalog of former Soviet and other Military artifacts, called the "Sovietski Collection," which may be purchased from the catalog. One of the the items is a new sextant, which comes in a dovetailed-cornered wooden box. It costs a few hundred dollars. However, with it is listed a separate book, called "The Sextant Handbook," which deals with sextants of the past and their operation. The book costs only sixteen dollars. If this is by any means new information and you'd like more, let me know, and I'll gladly post it!

Never a dull moment!
Best Regards,
Gene Dangelo #2211  :)

***************************************************************

From Ric

Sounds like the same book that Bill Moffet has (right Bill?).  Interesting book.  It mentions that it was definitely cool to have a German sextant.  You might occasionally use a Japanese or an English instrument but you wouldn't let your friends catch you doing it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:56:51 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Noonan and Radio

Mike Everette wrote:

> if you get the chance to actually touch one (they are getting
> to be rare antiques) you will note that the radios carry dual
> nomenclature tags:  US Army Signal Corps (black), and British
> Air Ministry (red).

Remember when I was talking about interservice procurement? Someone discounted it out of hand, pointing out the interservice rivalries between USA and USN. Admittedly, wartime changed a lot of things, but civilian contractors were civilian contractors -- they produced equipment and sometimes both services bought it. Sometimes, even complete airplanes were marketed to both services and were dual designated.

Thomas Van Hare
**************************************************************

From Ric

PB4Y-1 and B-24
SBD and A-24
R4D and C-47
etc., etc
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:03:25 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Shoes and such

Ric, Well, having just read this (The Story of Cecil), I'm glad to know that the mystery is finally solved, and we can get on about other things.  Too bad about Stanley, though...

LTM,
jon
**************************************************************
From Ric

Yeah.  Bummer.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:14:42 EST
From:         ply1
Subject:      AE's spelling

Ric wrote:

>If AE ever spelled incorrectly I'd bet that it was on
>purpose.

Yes, she had a unique shorthand version of writing and spelling that began early on, such as this paragraph from her school girl days:

          Your letter was scrummy  So long and joysome.  I'll
          send you the translation of your Cicero.  I'm a shark.
          ...Your letter was very funny.  I lawffed ex'cessively.

And this example from her wedding day:

          Dear GP,
            There are some things which should be writ before
          we are married. Things we have talked over before,_
          most of them.

**************************************************************

From Ric

We actually got onto this somewhat off-topic subject by accident because Jim's original posting was a reference to the female person who made reference to our making cold winter nights "bareable."

However,  you're right about AE.  Whatever her faults she was certainly literate.  Her Shakespearian "Denmark's a prison" remark about being stuck in Lae is another example.  You can't even find that one in Bartlett's.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:18:32 EST
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Hooks

>Interestingly, the British box has very similar hooks except that they
>point in the opposite direction from the German box.

Are you sure that the photo isn't just reversed?

amck

***************************************************************

From Ric

That wouldn't make any difference.  If the hooks point out, they point out.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:24:08 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Trivia

I am sure this will in no way help in the quest, but I found something which the group may find interesting (if you haven't already discovered it on your own).

It seems, during the 1930's there was a lady named Nellie Simmons Meier who was a palmist.  She published a book, Lions' Paws: The Story of Famous Hands.  Among those whose hands she examined was AE.  Upon completion of the book, Ms. Meier donated her notes and the original palm prints to the Library of Congress.  At http://memory.loc.gov/ enter "Earhart" in the simple search box, and it will take you to a screen where you can access the file.  When you get to the synopsis, click on the graphic of the report page, and follow the leads.  I selected the "higher resolution jpeg" format, and saved the two pages of original typewritten report, and two pages of hand prints to my hard drive.  Like I said, not going to solve the mystery, but a real treat to see.  Who knows it might have saved Mrs. Bolan (was that her name?) a lot of grief!
ltm
jon
***************************************************************

From Ric

Irene Bolam wouldn't permit herself to be fingerprinted to disprove Gervais' allegations.  She refused to dignify them by submitting to that.

Amelia did dabble in the occult.  She and Jackie Cochran thought they had ESP and  AE's departure date from Miami may have been influenced by her horoscope. It's not hard to imagine her going to a palmist.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:29:29 EST
From:         Bob
Subject:      Re: Noonan and Radio

To: Mike E.

In the 30s, all Pan Am Captains were required to possess a Radiotelegraph Second Class License.  The company had training classes to prepare them for the tests.

The research done here on Noonan shows that he was a very intelligent man.  He went from school drop out to Merchant Marine Captain without any formal training.  I think he would have also been able to obtain the license.

I have known several that obtained that license when they were teenagers.

Pan Am Flight Radio Officers (FRO), had the Radiotelegraph Second Class license.  The FCC would not give them credit for time/experience, on that license, for a Radiotelegraph First Class license because they were not sending telegrams for the passengers like the Radio Officers on ships did. This was always a sore spot with the FROs.

LTM

Bob
****************************************************************

From Ric

But is it believable that a guy who once had the expertise to get that license could, within just a couple of years, be able to only "recognize an individual letter sent several times" (as Chater says)?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:30:55 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Winds at Destination

Actually, what is important to winds aloft to a pilot is the relative position of the true winds to that which he is expecting, assuming he has only dead reckoning to rely upon.  If he thought the winds were even more from the north, and accounting for that, he would have ended up to the north if the winds were more easterly or southerly.  The oppositie is true.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:33:48 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Winds

A bit of winds clarifications.  Wind aloft info was taken at noon (local time) at Howland, which was at +10.5 time zone, the same as Honolulu.  The report provided below at 0100GMT was the radio time, and the reported time of observations was at 0000GMT.  Itasca bridge log winds were recorded as force levels, and conversion factors work out to 11 and 16 knots, which was the finest resolution available from USCG vessels.  Thanks for the info on the Black report.  I found the original radio report in the radio logs of the Itasca: Surface 16 knots ESE, 15 knots ESE at 1000', and 17 knots E at 2000 feet, max height is 2650.  Observations were made at 11AM local time.

The purpose of the wind reports was to indicate what the effect of the Itasca's smoking would be.  Unfortunately, we do not seem to have much data after 6AM local time until 10 AM local time that is meaningful.  However, the trend is for the wind to die down late in the pre-dawn hours, slowly spinning up after dawn.  General directions are from the ESE.  Based upon this information and knowledge of where the Itasca lays off Howland in the picture (showing her smoking), the smoke is going in the right general direction almost immediately from the stack and does not rise rapidly up to elevation.  This is consistent with approx. 10 knot winds.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:38:34 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Good Airplanes

>When was the last time you saw a perfectly good airplane?
>Yancy Qualls, Lockheed Martin

That's about the most incredible question I could ever imagine coming from the keyboard of a LockMart employee!

The answer, of course, is "The last time I saw a C-130!"

Tom #2179

      -|-
--x-x-(o)-x-x-- Herks Forever!

Tom Robison
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:40:34 EST
From:         Hugh Graham
Subject:      Re: OT: Amy Johnson

> Recently in its daily history segment, my local paper mentioned that
> pioneer aviatrix Amy Johnson had been lost on that day in 1941. A quick
> search of the WWW revealed only the following reference:
> http://www.things.org/music/al_stewart/history/flying_sorcery.html.
>
> Can your readership point me to a more comprehensive history (either WWW or
> print)?

Try Amy Johnson papers at http://libnet.wright.edu/staff/dunbar/arch/ms177.htm
Hope this helps.  HAGraham 2201.

****************************************************************

From Ric

The Earhart Forum knows all, tells all.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:49:41 EST
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Geronimo II

> LTM, who also refuses to jump from perfectly good airplanes
> Dennis McGee #0149
>
> ***************************************************************
>
> From Ric
>
> I get this awful feeling that I've started another off topic thread.

Ric:  You hit it on the head.  My first jump was at 300 feet out of a C-141 Starlifter (4 engine jet belonging to the Air Force) and I was in the Officer's Club the night before the jump and saw how much alcohol the pilots were putting away.  Being a pilot, I figured it was better to jump out of a perfectly good airplane than put myself at the mercy of one of their landings!  Fortunately, no one was hurt anyway and we all had good landings.  Though I am sure the pilots landings were at least as rocky as mine!  Well, on to more important things. Did AE/FN carry parachutes along?  Would have made good rescue panels.

Love To Mother,
Dave Bush
#2200
**************************************************************

From Ric

Nice save.  Back on topic.

"Last Flight" says that they left their parachutes in Darwin, Australia - but local newspaper articles clearly describe the two Irvin parachutes that had been sent to Darwin for Earhart to pick up when she got there, and a photo taken in Darwin shows AE and Fred standing by the cabin door with a pile of stuff that includes two 'chutes.  On loading or off loading?  No way to be sure.

Even if they picked up parachutes in Darwin, there's no way to know whether they kept them on board for the Lae/ Howland leg.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:56:31 EST
From:         Laura Hall
Subject:      Discovering Archaeology

Below is the URL for the new publication,  Discovering Archaeology
with a feature story on Amelia.

http://www.discoveringarchaeology.com/

LTM,
Laura Hall

****************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Laura.  I didn't know it was available on line.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:03:41 EST
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Geronimo II

Myths and legends.  Per an article I read about Geronimo, he built a myth about the bullets bouncing off.  As a child, the Indian children played a game similar to cops and robbers, using play arrows dipped in dye and blunted to prevent serious injury they would shoot each other.  Geronimo would "paint" his body with animal grease and if he was hit, would rub in the paint quickly to make it appear he hadn't been hit. The reason that I heard for yelling Geronimo is that two people were arguing over the level of fear experienced in the jump and one told the other that he would be too scared to think straight. So they made a bet and at the moment the person was going to jump, the other one would ask him a question and he had to answer it to prove he wasn't so scared that he couldn't think.  The question was asked and the correct answer came back Geronimooooooooooooooo"!  I added the extra O's (maybe) for emphasis!

Love to Geronimo's Mother,
Dave Bush
#2200
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:14:29 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Trivia

First, I can't blame her.  What a nuisance.  I recently discovered that I have a copy of Klass' book, which was given to me a number of years ago by a family friend.  Shelved and forgotten.

I knew of AE's ESP interest with Jackie Cochran, but in this case, my take on the handprints is that AE was sought out to participate in the book, not the other way around.
ltm
jon
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:56:30 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Re: Noonan and Radio

I have known several that obtained that license when they were teenagers.

I obtained my 1st Class Radiotelephone License when I was 18.  By that time, I also held an Advanced Class Amateur radio license (which required a code speed of 13 wpm - I could copy about 15 wpm solid).  None of those tests (except the code test <g>) were really THAT hard.  It just took some good studying.  I might have gotten the Commercial ticket sooner, if I'd had a good teacher in electronics class and hadn't had to study 'on my own'.

Ric wrote:

>But is it believable that a guy who once had the expertise to get that license
>could, within just a couple of years, be able to only "recognize an individual
>letter sent several times" (as Chater says)?

Not at all likely.  I hadn't copied hardly any CW (code) for at least 8 years, and sat down and was up to around 18 wpm solid (from about 15 wpm solid, 8 years previous) after spending a few hours on it.  Once learned, most people do not 'forget' Morse code.  Anyone who was able to pass a 20 wpm test could EASILY copy at 10 to 15 wpm, MANY years later, with very little 'refreshing' of their memory, in my opinion.  I would guess that within just a few hours, they would probably be back up to 20 wpm or so - depending, of course, upon the individual.

If it's true that Noonan could only "recognize an individual letter sent several times", then I don't believe that he ever really 'learned' code and I don't believe that he ever held a 1st or 2nd Class Commercial Radiotelegraph license.  Just my opinion.

   John Rayfield, Jr.
   Springfield, Missouri
***************************************************************

From Ric

That has also been my gut feeling.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:26:29 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Noonan and radio license

Thanks to Bob for setting me right, re the Pan Am requirements for their captains. Did the same extend to navigators?  As a curiosity, when if ever was this requirement done away with?

This puts some interesting light on the subject of Noonan and Radio... and raises some more interesting questions regarding Noonan and the AE flight.

As one who has "been there and done that" with respect to the Second Class Radiotelegraph license, I do not -- repeat, do not -- agree with any assessment of someone who held that level of license as being so non-proficient in morse code that he/she "could only recognize an individual letter sent several times."  The FCC commercial radiotelegraph exam consisted of both a sending and receiving test.  One had to send at 20 words per minute.  Sending code is not that hard (unless we may be excused for sending with such antirhythm that it sounds like bovine byproducts hitting a flat rock, or with such "creative" rhythm that one has a "fist" with a "Banana-Boat Swing").  Receiving Morse at 20 words per minute is quite another matter.  It is not for the faint of heart, or for those with any questionable ability.  One had to copy perfect Morse for at least one minute. The examination not only included plain-language words or text, but also numbers, punctuation marks, and -- and -- "coded groups" such as XJSRT QMFXL WYGWB etc etc.... in other words, no way to "anticipate" the next letter in a word or group.

Try it some time.

One doesn't simply study for this type of test, to get good enough to pass it. Morse proficiency is a skill which must be cultivated.  It is a lot like learning to speak and think in another language.  And 20 wpm is difficult.

The theory part of this exam is an experts' level test.

I agree, that anyone who took this exam and passed it had to be intelligent (and yes, that would include Fred Noonan -- and myself, thanks very much). If Fred Noonan had such a license, attesting to his radio expertise,  what does that say about all the radio problems AE seems to have had?

I believe AE originally wanted to have a third crew member, a radio operator -- Harry Manning.  When Manning backed out of the second attempt, why could Noonan not double up as radio operator?  And why did AE leave her CW key behind?  Noonan would have surely known how to use it.  He also would have surely known that 500 KHz was a frequency on which CW (morse) emission was employed, not voice.  That knowledge is basic to a Third class license, let alone a Second.

What I have always wondered, is this:

If AE had Noonan aboard, an ex-Pan Am navigator who pioneered the Pacific, and who undoubtedly knew the workings and capabilities of the PAA Pacific DF net, why in the bloody blue blazes did her radio not have even one single Pan Am frequency installed?

Can someone enlighten me whether either 3105 or 6210 was one of the freqs PAA used?  (I bet it was not.)  If it was, why did they never ask for a bearing from PAA?

Let's not stop with the PAA frequency question.  Why did she not have a frequency used by the Royal Navy, the French Navy, or the USN (or perhaps, the Imperial Japanese Navy -- we were not at war with Japan then), if she was to be over water -- especially in parts of the world which were not "American" skies?   Well, sure, they all guarded 500 KHz... and, if Noonan was indeed radio-proficient, he could surely have established communication -- if, if, if, the aircraft had carried the proper antenna for 500, which it did not.

The Western Electric transmitter she used was available in a five-frequency model, in addition to the three-frequency one she had.  Those extra radio frequencies might have made a lot of difference.

There are a lot of things which do not add up.  Yet.

73
Mike E.

****************************************************************
From Ric

Indeed, things do not add up if Noonan held a Radiotelegraph License and had both theoretical and practical expertise in radio.  However, we have no evidence that he had any of those things and considerable evidence that he did not. If Noonan was an experienced sailor and a crackerjack navigator who was hired by Pan am for his navigational, not his radio ability; and if his experience at Pan Am did not provide him with an in depth familiarity with the technical aspects of the Pan Am DF system; and if Earhart's world flight was never intended to rely heavily upon radio navigation; and if whatever DFing there was to be done was primarily AE's responsibility; and if no part of the world flight route except Miami to Brazil and later Hawaii to Oakland was over Pan Am territory;  then things add up pretty well.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:28:47 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Thoughts on Radio, Interservice Equipment etc

Some of this may be a little off topic, and may sound like a "rant," but I had to say it.

Some further thoughts on the matter of interservice equipment and/or aircraft procurement:

During the war a lot of things changed.  Expediency became the word.  Until then, however, there was next to no commonality in contracts or equipment specifications.

For example:  It was only with the greatest reluctance, and eating of much crow, that the US Army Air Corps was forced to buy a Navy design radio for its aircraft in 1940-41 (the SCR-274N, which was a repaint of the Navy ATA/ARA) and did so only after dropping much money into a bad developmental hole when their new "advanced technology" crystal-controlled high-frequency radio (SCR-240) proved a total failure.

Sure, both USAAF and USN shared a number of aircraft types... but it was mainly wartime requirements that forced them to come to an accomodation. The Navy never had land-based patrol bombers before the antisubmarine needs of WW2 forced them, more or less, to adopt the B-24 as the PB4Y -- and, actually, they took over a large number of B-24s directly from Army antisub units when it was decided that sub hunting was "properly" a Navy Job.

The Navy attracted interest from the Air Corps in 1939-40 when the XF4U Corsair proved the world's fastest "pursuit" plane; but the Army did not follow up.  Politically, it was committed to the in-line liquid-cooled engine, and had ruined a great airplane (the P-36) by removing its radial engine and turning it into the P-40, with the Allison... and lots of problems. (Yeah, yeah, I know... the '40 proved to be quite a bird later... but it wasn't the best choice by a long shot).

And yes, I too know people who took the Second Radiotelegraph exam when teenagers.  I know one really well....

And once one learns the "language" of Morse, they don't ever really forget it.

73
Mike E.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:30:15 EST
From:         Bob
Subject:      Re: Noonan And Radio

Yes, I can see Noonan forgetting his CW.  If a person has no real interest in CW, but wants the license and learns just enough to get past the test, then never uses it again, he could very well forget most of what he has learned of it.  I have known many who have.

LTM
Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:42:42 EST
From:         Cam Warren
Subject:      Earhart, Noonan & Morse

Well, it's time to step in with one of those unsolicited, badly documented corrections to set the record straight.

C. B. Allen, the NY Herald Trib aviation correspondent, quoted AE as saying both she and Fred knew Morse code, but only about 10 words/minute.  (You could look it up, it's in the NASM/Earhart files). She went on to say they hesitated to use a key, since all the pro operators would make fun of their slowness.

And, I think, in the same interview and/or story, Allen also says there WAS a 32 caliber pistol in the Electra's emergency package. Thus lending some credibility to Balfour's story re AE giving him a pistol at Lae. (Up 'til I read CB's piece, I didn't believe it either!).

Cam Warren
***************************************************************
From Ric

So with regard to AE and Fred's morse capability we have conflicting comtemporaneous sources.  A newspaper reporter in Miami (Allen) and an airline manager in Lae (Chater).  I guess you have to choose which you consider to be the most accurate and credible.  It could also be that both were accurately and credibly reporting what AE said at the time.  The question then becomes, in which case is she saying what sounds good and in which case is she worried about her butt.

As for the pistol, there is a photo of her holding a flare pistol prior to the first attempt.  There would seem to be room for confusion there.  I can't imagine why she'd want a handgun aboard the plane.  I've never heard anything about AE knowing anything about guns and it certainly runs counter to her pacifist convictions.

A word about newspaper reporters - even the good ones get it wrong.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:44:58 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Sextants, reprise

Re: Gene DeAngelo's post 1/6:

I have "The Sextant Handbook", Adjustment, Repair, Use & History, by Cmdr. Bruce A. Bauer, USN (ret.), 1986, Azimuth Press, Annapolis, MD, ISBN 0-913179-09-4.  Borrowed it at my local library.  Cmdr Bauer also said, "British instruments (are) serviceable but quaint -- really suitable mainly for people who think cold showers before breakfast are character uilding."  - He wrote an interesting and very informative text, but I fear that modern communications & GPS have made the sextants we're talking about obsolete.  Incidentally he says that "the lower accuracy of which the aircraft bubble instrument is capable may be good enough for a machine going 500 knots, but is inadequate for one going 5 knots."  Maybe that tells us why Fred carried his "preventer".

LTM
Bill Moffet #2156
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:46:37 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Noonan and Radio

I learned Morse in the AAF (Class of 44-D) - probably had to pass 10 wpm - don't recall exactly.  Have hardly used the skill since but can still copy most of a W1AW code practice transmission at 5 wpm.  Sort of like riding a bike; you don't forget how.  Also there's a a rhythm to it & musicians are reported to attain higher speeds faster than the rest of us.  If Chater is correct, I doubt Fred had the Radioteleghaph license.  Wonder if any old PAA types have an anecdote about Fred using Morse?

LTM
Bill Moffet #2156
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:53:41 EST
From:         Tom Cook
Subject:      Ric's favorite Airplane?

"The army toasts their Skytrain now
in lousy Scotch and Soda,
The Tommies raise their tankards 'igh
to cheer their old Dakota,
Some claim the C Four Sevens best
or the gallent R4D,
Forget that claim, they're all the same
THE NOBLE  DC3."

TC 2127

***************************************************************
From Ric

Cute.  I think that it's hard not to have a soft spot for any airplane that consistently forgives your most suicidal mistakes (but the Gooney is not unique in that virtue).  Ironically, you also develop a perverse affection for types that try to kill you for the slightest excuse.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:16:12 EST
From:         Cameron Warren
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on Radio, Interservice Equipment etc

So far, nobody has mentioned the "JAN" spec (Joint-Army Navy) used during WWII, although it may have applied only to electronic bits and pieces.

Cam Warren
ex-Navy Electronic Technician
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:19:46 EST
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on Radio, Interservice Equipment etc

Discrepancies between equipment used by the various services still survives.  If you'll remember the invasion of Granada, one of the Army or Marine types had to use his cell phone to call back to the U.S. and contact the other service as to their aircraft which were making bombing runs (or was it Naval bombardment?) and ask them to pull off because they were receiving friendly fire or something of that nature.

However, I recently read that the services are working together for the next generation aircraft to have interchangeable parts (carrier stuff would still have beefier frames, etc, but essentially the same aircraft) so as to reduce the purchase price and maintenance costs.  HALLELLUJAH!!!

Love to Mother,
Dave Bush
#2200
***************************************************************

From Ric

It's an old song.  Remember the McDonnell F-4?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:21:24 EST
From:         David Hall
Subject:      AE's FBI File

If anyone doesn't already have a copy! On the below website, they have AE's FBI file for downloading under the "The G-Files" section.

     http://www.apbonline.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:34:44 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Plan & Budget for 1999

As promised, here's the plan and budget for 1999.  We'll be mounting this on the website in the next day or so but I wanted to give the forum a sneak-preview.

Niku IIII, TIGHAR's next major search expedition to Nikumaroro is planned for the spring of 2000 but the shape of that trip will be determined by what happens this year. The following synopsis outlines two research trips we want to conduct in 1999.  The purpose, team make-up, and an itemized budget are provided for each trip.

It is important to realize that in addition to the direct costs of these activities, TIGHAR must somehow each month raise the difference between our routine operating expenses of $15,000 and the roughly $5,000 our too-small membership base brings in monthly through renewals, donations and sales.  We have to find that other $10,000 per month through special contributions and donations. When we can't (which is frequently the case) it severely inhibits our efforts to move the project and the organization forward. Naturally, therefore, our first need is to find a way to more reliably cover the shortfall in our operating expenses.  That alone would greatly increase our efficiency.

The two research trips needed in 1999 are:

Trip 1 - Fiji and Tarawa

We want to fly a six-person team to Fiji for two weeks in late March/early April.  Two team members will search for the bones and artifacts brought to Fiji in 1941 while the other four continue on to Tarawa to search the Kiribati National Archives for additional documents, interview former residents of Nikumaroro, discuss the proposed engine excavation on Kanton Island, and reach an agreement with the government of Kiribati about a course of action should conclusively identifiable aircraft wreckage and/or human remains be found on Kanton and/or Nikumaroro.

The search for bones and artifacts in Fiji is our most economical course of action which might produce conclusively identifiable objects (i.e. bones for DNA matching).  The Tarawa trip, in addition to possibly uncovering important new evidence, is essential for concluding an agreement with the government of Kiribati before major discoveries are made within their national borders.

The team that will stay in Fiji to search for bones and artifacts will be:

Kristin Tague - Kris, who works professionally with archives and research collections, is a veteran of two expeditions to Nikumaroro.  She has been our principal point of contact with officials of the Central Medical School in Fiji where the bones were last known to be stored.

Dr. Karen Burns - Dr. Burns is the project's forensic anthroplogist.  She performed the re-evaluation of the bone measurements and presented our findings at the American Anthropological Assoc. meeting in Philadelphia in December.  She has extensive field experience in locating human remains and dealing with foreign bureaucracies.

*******************************
Cost
Airfare - 2 researchers r/t L.A. to Fiji @ $1,400   -  $2,800
Accommodations in Fiji, - $100  x 14 nights (1 room, double occ.)  -  $1,400
Meals - 2 researchers @ $50 x 14 days - $1,400
Rental car  - $600
Incidentals - $500

Total  $6,700
****************************************
The team that will continue on to Tarawa will be made up of:

Kenton Spading - Kenton was responsible for the discovery of the files in England and has acquired the detailed knowledge of the British colonial record-keeping systems necessary for locating long-lost documents.

Dr. Tom King -  Dr. King, the project's archeologist, is an expert in Micronesian cultures and in the history of Nikumaroro's colonial period.  He will be responsible for interviewing former residents of the island who now reside in Tarawa.

John Clauss - John is an authority on toxic waste disposal, which is a major concern on Kanton Island.  We would like to incorporate a clean-up of some of the more dangerous sites left behind by the USAF operations there in the 1970s with our excavation for the engine.

Richard Gillespie - As TIGHAR's executive director I have the authority to enter into agreements between the organization and the government of Kiribati.

Each of these team members is a veteran of TIGHARs work on Nikumaroro.
*****************************************
Cost

Airfare - 4 researchers r/t L.A. to Fiji  @ $1,400    -  $5,600
Airfare - 4 researchers r/t Fiji to Tarawa @ $1,000 - $4,000
Accommodations $100  x 14 nights (2 rooms, double occ.)  -  $2,800
Meals  4 researchers @ $50 x 14 days - $2,800
Local transportation  - $600
Incidentals - $2,000

Total  $17,800
***********************************************

Total cost of Trip 1 - $24,500

**********************************************

Trip 2 - Kanton and Nikumaroro

From July 5 to July 26 we want to send a six-person team by ship from Fiji to Kanton to excavate for the engine. If the engine Bruce Yoho recovered in 1971 is buried in the dump on Kanton, and if that engine is one of Earhart's, it is worth excavating the dump to try to find it. Plans currently call for bringing a backhoe that is compatible with an existing Kubota tractor on Kanton.

On our return from Kanton, the ship will stop at Nikumaroro for some reconnaissance in preparation for the Niku IIII expedition in 2000.  The new information developed since the Niku III trip in 1997 means that the Niku IIII expedition will be searching some parts of the island where we have previously spent very little time and about which we have no detailed knowledge.  The Recon Team will assess the sites to be searched in 2000 so that we can make sure that the major search operation is properly equipped and prepared to conduct an efficient and thorough search.  That search will have two major objectives:

Bones

Only a partial skeleton was recovered in 1940.  At least some, and perhaps many, of the 100 or so bones that Gallagher did not find should still be there.  We do not, however, know for certain where Gallagher's discovery was made.  At present, we have three separate candidate sites - Kanawa Point (the one place where we know that kanawa trees once grew), Aukaraime (where we found the shoes in 1991), and the Southeast End (where we know there was some unexplained activity 1940/41). Performing a thorough search of these sites will be an extremely labor-intensive process requiring meticulous clearing and hands-and-knees searching and sifting by a trained team.  The Recon Team will assess the specific problems of dealing with the vegetation and ground composition at each site so that the Niku IIII expedition can be properly equipped for the work to be done.

Aircraft Wreckage

The search for the main body of airplane wreckage is, in some ways, the mirror image of the bone search.  We have anecdotal descriptions of where the wreckage was and the location seems to be corroborated by forensic imaging of old aerial photography - so we know in general where to look.  What we don't know, of course, is whether or not the anecdotes are true.  We have spent little or no time in the areas along the Nutiran and Taraia shorelines where  wreckage was reportedly seen in the late 1950s.  We know that the vegetation in those areas is very dense but we need to get a better handle on just how much time and what kind of equipment we'll need to do a thorough search.

We, of course, recognize that in the process of this much-needed reconnaissance there is the possibility that we could get lucky and come across important  material but the primary objective of this relatively short visit is to prepare for Niku IIII.

***************************************************************
The team for the 1999 Kanton/Niku expedition would be:

Richard Gillespie
Dr. Tom King
Kenton Spading
John Clauss
Russell Matthews
Gary Quigg

Each of these individuals has extensive experience in the field with TIGHAR and is familiar with the island.
**************************************************************
Cost
Airfare - 6 researchers r/t L.A. to Fiji  @ $1,400    -  $8,400
Transportation in Fiji - $300
Ship charter, 21 days @ $5,000/day  -  $105,000
Backhoe rental - $5,000
Incidentals - $2,000

Total  $120,700
**************************************************************

To summarize:

We'll need to raise $120,000 in 1999 ($10,000 per month) in special contributions for operating expenses.

Trip 1,  Fiji and Tarawa - $24,500
- Conduct a thorough search for the bones and artifacts in Fiji.
- Search the Kiribati National Archives for further important documents.
- Interview former residents of Nikumaroro for more information about
   where to search on the island.
- Coordinate with the Kiribati government on essential issues.

Trip 2,  Kanton and Nikumaroro - $120,700
- Excavate for the engine on Kanton.
- Reconnoiter the areas on Nikumaroro to be searched in 2000.

So to cover our operating expenses and do both trips in 1999 we need to raise at least $265,200.

***************************************************************
Corporate Sponsorship

Several large corporations such as FedEx, Air Pacific (Fiji's national airline), Trimble Navigation,  Willis & Geiger Outfitters, and ScubaPro have been generous in donating services and products, but as yet we don't have a major corporate financial sponsor.   We'd sure like to have one and would be willing to work with the company's advertising, marketing, public relations or employee relations department to insure the best possible return in exposure and recognition.

*************************************************************

Sponsor/team member participation

We generally do not link financial support of the project with participation in the expeditions but we have made cautious exceptions in the past and it has worked out well.  If this is something that interests you and you're in a position to make a major financial contribution to the project we're happy to talk about it.

***********************************
There you have it.  I'm braced for your responses and comments (not really, but I thought I might as well say that).  Fire away.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:43:13 EST
From:         Hugh Graham
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on Interservice Equipment.

> Politically, it was committed to the in-line liquid-cooled
> engine, and had ruined a great airplane (the P-36) by removing its radial
> engine and turning it into the P-40, with the Allison... and lots of
> problems.

But even the P-51 Mustang was a failure with the Allison.  Replacing it with the Merlin produced, arguably, the finest fighter of WW2.  How could the USAAF have known that Generous Motors would produce a poor V12 aircraft engine?    HAGraham  2201.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:46:22 EST
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: Noonan and Radio

Bill's right! Being a musician, I remember that the rhythm and pitch elements of the morse code just seemed to "fall into place" when I took the CW test for my Ham license.  In fact, the day of our test, I was the only one in our radio class to pass the code test.

As an aside, one of my college music professors at Duquesne University was a man named Sam Yahres, who, prior to being a music teacher and college music professor, had flown a B-17 during World War II. Prior to that, he had been a organist at an ice skating rink. He told us in class once that organists were sought during the draft for the Air Corps to be pilots, because of the four-extremity fine motor coordination, since organists need to play not only the manual keyboards, but also the footpedal notes as well. (As an organist, I can identify with the concept.) I thought that you might find that to be interesting trivia!

Have a good day, all!
Gene Dangelo #2211 :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:49:16 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on Radio, Interservice Equipment etc

Dave Bush wrote:

> If you'll remember the invasion of Granada, one of the Army or
> Marine types had to use his cell phone to call back to the U.S.
> and contact  the other service as to their aircraft which were
> making bombing runs (or was it Naval bombardment?) and ask them
> to pull off because they were receiving friendly fire....

Sorry that this is so off-topic.... As I recall it, a US Army officer on the scene used a local telephone and his credit card to call the NMCC in the Pentagon, which in turn passed the message to the USN regarding a request for air support. I wasn't involved with the White House/Pentagon at that point, so I don't recall for sure, but I'm pretty sure that was how it happened.

Similarly, the US airstrike against Libya during this same period revealed extensive interservice communications and electronics conflicts. A study after the fact pointed out several thousand incompatible systems and frequency conflicts -- F-111 gear stepping on USN freqs, F-14s unable to communicate with the F-111 strike package, incompatible COMSEC gear, etc.

By the time Panama came around, much of this was sorted out and very few comm problems resulted. Finally, the Gulf War proved that we really did have it right, though from time to time errors were made (for example, a friend of mine found himself flying through the upward path of an artillery barrage).

All in all, though, despite the fact that it is an interesting topic, none of this would mean that a sextant wouldn't have been built by a vendor for two services or nations back in the 1930s.

Thomas Van Hare
**************************************************************

From Ric

The real lesson here is that AE should have brought along a cell phone.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:51:49 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on Radio, Interservice Equipment etc

For Cam Warren:

The JAN system was formulated in early to mid 1942.

Most Army and Navy gear continued to bear separate designations until 1943. Some equipment which was never adopted by both services continued to carry non-JAN nomenclatures: example, the Navy TCS and TBW series radios; the Army BC-375 aircraft transmitter, etc.  although the Army and Navy doubtlessly inherited some of each other's equipment when they swapped airplanes, such as the B-24s which became PB4Ys, PBY Catalinas which became USAAF OA-10s and the A-24 dive bombers which were handed over to the Navy to re-morph into SBDs (most if not all of that batch were used as trainers, stateside).  Lord only knows what they did for spare parts procurement.

To get back onto topic:  Any reference to JAN specs, the AN-system, etc. and any components so nomenclatured in connection with the 30s and AE, is bogus. Neither system existed at that time.

73
Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:53:15 EST
From:         Mark
Subject:      Re: Noonan and Radio

Just a note on Morse code - my own father was a USN Radioman Second Class in WW2 from 1943 to 46, served with the 7th Fleet in the Pacific on a PC and a Carrier for all 3 years. He never used code after that, but when I was studying for my license in the mid 80's (40 years later) he rehearsed with me and easily surpassed my snails pace of 8 wpm. I agree - you never lose it - 

Mark
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:54:41 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on Radio, Interservice Equipment etc

Regarding interservice specifications, the Army and Navy shared a joint radio operator's shorthand code, the "Z" codes, which was different from the Navy/USCG internal use.  This was long before WWII.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:56:49 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Earhart, Noonan & Morse

For AE to get permission to fly over several foreign countries, she had to state that she did not carry firearms nor use a camera in flight.  I do not believe that she would be that foolhardy to carry a pistol in an emergency kit.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:06:54 EST
From:         Bob
Subject:      Re: Noonan and Radio

To:  All the forum's radio experts

I do have some CW skills myself.  I have been a Radio Amateur for 44 years.  I did pass a 25 wpm coded groups CW test in the Navy so I do understand what its like.  I remember, about 20 years ago, I went through a period of two years where I was inactive on CW.  When I got back into it again, I found I was having trouble remembering several of the letters.  It took me a month or so to do a lot of relearning and get back up to speed.  But of course I realize I am not quite as bright as some on this forum.

Which brings up another question.  Wouldn't one think that Noonan, some where along the line, on his way up the ladder to his Captain ratings in the Merchant Marines, would have learned the code?  Maybe even have gotten his Radiotelegraph License at that time.  At least, I am sure, he would have learned the code so he could send messages on a signal light.  They did use radio and signal lights on ships at that time, you know.

In the 1930s, every Boy Scout in the USA new the code.  Wouldn't you think that a ships Captain would also have learned it?

LTM

Bob
**************************************************************

From Ric

Well friends, the problem we have to deal with is that a credible source (Chater) in a contemporaneous document (the Chater Report) says that at the time of the Lae/Howland flight both Earhart and Noonan represented themselves as not having any significant ability with morse code.  Whether either or both of them once had the ability and lost it or never had it at all is immaterial. We either believe Chater or we don't, and so far I haven't seen any reason to doubt him.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:44:57 EST
From:         John Larrabee
Subject:      Wreck photo mystery -- a solution?

As a newbie whose only credentials for this forum are a passionate interest in TIGHAR's efforts, please pardon me if those more knowledgeable than I have already discussed this matter.  During my many hours perusing the TIGHAR website, I believe I've connected a few pieces of information to form a plausible hypothesis -- one which passes the test of making logical conclusions based on available evidence, without adding assumptions or creative interpretations (I hope).

From various pages around the site, I have learned the following:

-The mysterious wreck photo shows a plane with panels of bulkhead missing from the fuselage.  The shapes of these panels, especially the symmetry of those four panels on the left, do not match the known shape of panels found on a Lockheed Electra.

-Pieces of stressed aluminum have been discovered, some of which may well have come from AE's Electra, some of which also show signs of having been cut with metal shears.

-Inhabitants of the islands were known to collect and hoard anything that might be of value.

You probably see where I'm leading.  Could we be looking at a photo of the plane after it has been scavenged?  An islander discovers the wreck and, thinking a bit of sheet metal might come in handy, attacks the plane with a knife or shears capable of cutting metal to just the size needed -- a much easier task, it would seem, than popping rivets to get the entire panel.   The missing panels themselves also seem to be sloppily cut and rounded at the edges, which would also argue against entire sharp-edged riveted panels having been ripped away.

Please shoot me down in flames if I'm way off the mark here...

John Larrabee
***************************************************************

From Ric

No guns.  I agree entirely.  I have always figured that those dark rectangular places on the nose are sections of skin that have been cut out.

If the wreck is NR16020 and the location is Niku, then the photo had to have been taken after the island was settled.  Earhart disappeared in July of 1937. The island was first settled in December 1938, so that's only 19 months.  It's apparent from the photo that vegetation has had time to grow up around and through the wreck.  The photo is said to have been taken around 1948 and the amount of growth might well be consistent with that length of time.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:24:02 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Questions for the Forum

I have a couple of questions that I have been thinking about that I think either Ric, Randy or the Forum could set me straight on.

1. I think Ric said that AE's Electra cost about $80,000 in 1937. The Electra was considered the state of the art twin engine all metal airplane wasn't it?  What would be the cost in 1999 dollars? I'm just trying to get a feel of the magnitude of Purdue's gift to AE.

From Ric:

The Electra was a current production airliner.  By no means cutting edge technology (first flight was in 1934) but a good airplane.  I don't know what $80,000 in 1936 equates to today.  We're talking about the height of the Great Depression.  It was significant amount of money.

2. What was the location of the USS Swan on July 2, 1937, how many miles from Howland would that be? Was it suppose to be the plane guard between Howland and Hawaii? Would it's location be on a Great Circle Route between Howland and Hawaii? When AE turned up missing, where did the Swan head for, does the log give a compass heading or any indication what actions the Swan took ? Did the Swan hear any of AE's transmissions?

From Ric:

Swan's deck log shows that she was at 11 degrees, 25 minutes North Lat.;  167 degrees, 15 minutes West Long. on July 2nd.  When Earhart went missing Swan was ordered to head for Howland.  The heading was 222 degrees True.

3. Randy, in your post to the Forum about the HF/DF on Howland, you stated that Safford said it was the same rig AE had in her plane. Did that info come from Safford's manuscript about the search for AE? Was that a quote?

From Ric:

Randy?

4. Ric, since Safford held a command position in the Navy and has written works on file at N.A.R.A what status does TIGHAR give his manuscript " Amelia Earhart's Last Flight: A Tragedy Of Errors", primary source, secondary source etc. ?

From Ric:

My copy of Safford's manuscript was revised on 23 june 1971 and is entitled "Flight Into Yesterday."  (He seems to have changed the title at least once.) My impression is that it is a generally good, although not scholarly, work based on what primary sources were available to him at the time.  He makes the same error that most authors make who have no training as historians, he states opinons as facts and then uses those "facts" for form further opinions, and so forth.

5. Who introduced Manning and Noonan to AE and George Putnam.?

From Ric:

Harry Manning was the captain of the ocean liner that brought AE home from Europe. They became good friends.  I don't know how AE and GP connected with Noonan.

I just want to say thanks in advance for your response.
Daryll
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:27:44 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Gallagher research

Do we know anything more of Gallagher's father other that he was a doctor and in Africa at some point in time?  Was he living at the time of Gerald's death? After the war?

Do we know what Gallagher's BA and MA degrees were in -- his major subject?

***************************************************************

From Ric

As far as I know, the documents we have do not give us any of that information.  However, if Gerald got into St. Bart's it seems like he must have been in a pre-med program at Cambridge.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:41:42 EST
From:         Paul Chattey
Subject:      FW: Earhart, Noonan & Morse

I wonder if what she agreed to do and what she really did could be two very different things?  Do we know that there were requirements regarding firearms and use of a camera in flight?  I have boyhood memories of a couple of pilots carrying pistols and using cameras in small US planes going through Bolivia and Peru in the late '50s-early '60s.  Granted, South America wasn't on her route, but I'd have felt naked without a hogleg in some of the places she went. Thoughts?

Paul

***************************************************************

From Ric

I think Randy has the paperwork on the no guns, no cameras requirement. South America certainly was on her route, but at the risk of incurring a visit from Chuck Heston, I'll point out that feelings of insecurity when not packing a pistol were not, and are not, universal.  TIGHAR has run expeditions in some pretty hairy neighborhoods (Papua New Guinea, southern Delaware, etc.) and we absolutely prohibit firearms of any description.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:44:25 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      radio stuff

Mike Everette wrote:

>There are a lot of things which do not add up.  Yet.

regarding radio usage by AE/FN.

I kind of agree and disagree with Mike E. on his statement.

Part of my personal interpretation of the "chaos theory" is that any given random event -- scrutinized, inspected, dissected often enough over a prolonged period of time by different investigators will reveal many anomalies regarding the behavior of the individuals and objects involved.  In short, any event has one or more unexplained answers.

Trying to explain ever minute detail of any event will lead to total frustration.  There will always be more questions than answers.

The stuff of science starts with speculation, i.e. "what if ...?", followed by investigation, interpretation, experimentation, etc. While "what if...?" is fun to play around the stove on long wintry nights (and so are OTHER things!) let us not forget that "what if" is speculation.

While there appear to be gaps regarding AE/FN's radio knowledge and abilities, let's not stray too far from the known facts least we end up the conspiracy groups that believe less knowledge equals more proof.

Also, remember that this was 1937 and that AE was doing this thing on a shoestring budget.  Early electronic equipment was suspect and often poorly understood, and other corners were cut and compromises made that a better financed and more deliberately planned venture may have avoided.

Planes crash for the same reason cars crash: the operator makes a mistake.

LTM, who really doesn't know everything
Dennis McGee #0149
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:50:05 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Interservice Radio Jargon

Regarding the "sharing" of Z-Signals by the different US military services:

There were a few of these which were shared; but many more were not.  Army Signal Corps Field Manuals from the period up to and including WW2 do not list large blocks of the Z-signals, and 98% of the ones they do list are quite Army-specific.  I have not found any signal books which list the complete Z-code, which were issued by the military services, until late in WW2.  And, the military signal books do not list the Z-signals employed on the civil airways, or in seagoing commerce.

The USN and USCG probably shared mostly the same communications procedures and signal lists.  But the Army might as well have been from the planet Krypton, as far as they were concerned... as to the Army, the Navy was an alien life form.

As for civilians... they didn't matter.

73
Mike E. #2194
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:53:14 EST
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Remembering morse

In 1956 I spent several months at the Intermediate Speed Radio School at Ft. Jackson, S.C., some eight hours a day in the code rooms, listening to tapes of code played over & over again, at ever increasing speeds, alternating with practicing our 'skills' at sending code with our keys. To 'graduate', you needed a minimum of 13 gpm (groups per minute), which I was able to attain by the barest of margins. Typical of the army's infinite wisdom, when assigned overseas, I never had occasion to use CW code again.

Today, I can recall only one signal: I-M-I, better known as: 'ditti-dum-dum-ditti', which if my fading memory serves me correctly meant:"say again", a phrase I used almost constantly, to the complete consternation of the senders at the other end!

We sent coded groups, rather than words, & were taught to develop a 'rhythm' in sending code & we quickly learned to recognize similar 'rhyhm' in receiving code, as there was no 'word' recognition in the coded groups we were transmitting.

Like anything else we are taught, it requires regular 'use' in order to stick within our memories;  however I'm sure learning 'civilian' morse code was somewhat different that the military "by-the-numbers" routines & anyone attaining up to 20 wpm for licensing purposes had a great deal more motivation to retain such skills than a two year military draftee!

Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:55:05 EST
From:         George Kastner
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on Interservice Equipment.

The A-36 was a "failure"?  Tell that to the 527th Sqdrn. of the 86th Fighter-Bomber.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:08:21 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Morse code

Don Neuman wrote:

>Today, I can recall only one signal: I-M-I, better known as:
>'ditti-dum-dum-ditti', which if my fading memory serves me correctly
>meant:"say again", a phrase I used almost constantly, to the complete
>consternation of the senders at the other end!"

I always thought IMI was a question mark, an interrogative. I ( dit dit) M (dah dah) I (dit dit).

"Say again" was the letter R (dit-dah-dit), for "repeat."

How say the code guys and gals out there?

LTM, who doesn't know Morse Code
Dennis McGee #0149
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:10:43 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Just Sing'in

There she was just a walkin down the street singin
<'ditti-dum-dum-ditti',>
  There IS Music in Morse Code !!!!

**************************************************************

From Ric

Jeez Daryll. If I'm gonna post this stuff you could at least join TIGHAR.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:23:07 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Army-Navy Tension

I just wanted to pass along something anecdotal about this tension between the Army and the Navy.

From the book:

"SECRET MISSIONS, THE STORY OF AN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER" by Capt. Ellis M. Zacharias." ..........we recieved from one of our confidential informants in Detroit still another clue revealing particular subjects in which the Japanese showed intense interest. An exhibition of military aircraft was arranged in Detroit by an Army Air Corps group from Wright Field Dayton Ohio, displaying among others a radio direction finder which was high on the Navy classified list of secret devices. The Army had an adaptation of it, and though Naval Intelligence had worked long and hard to keep it secure, it was suddenly open to public view by courtesy of a few overzealous public relations officers.

The attention of our confidential agent was attracted to the instrument when he watched a single Japanese who displayed unusual curiosity, then left immediately to put in a long-distance call to "inspector" of the Japanese Naval Purchasing Office in New York. Next morning our man was not surprised by the sudden appearance of several other Japanese visitors showing unconcealed interest in the exhibition. They were armed with cameras, notebooks, and blueprints. Our man in Detroit did not, of course, know the particular secrets of the device, but he was satisfied that when a Japanese displayed such an obvious interest, it must be of great importance indeed. Accordingly he phoned us in Washington and told his story. We got in touch with Army Intelligence and requested withdrawal of the instrument from the show. This was done immediately; and when the officials of the Japanese Purchasing and Intelligence Bureaus in New York arrived by plane in Detroit the next day, July 26, 1935, in response to the sumons of their local agent, this particular secret commodity had disappeared from the open market. So great was the significance of the device to them that the Japanese officers had flown to Detroit in a chartered plane; and when the big boss, Captain Sakurai, arrived from New York and found only the empty spot where the instrument had been, he was so violently indignant that he began to use abusive language to one of the guards when the instrument could not be located."

Daryll
***************************************************************

From Ric

Interesting but waaaaay off topic.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:49:20 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Morse code

When I worked COMSEC in the mid-1980s, my immediate superior was a "speedkey" from the US Navy. He used to call these meetings where he would talk for hours on end to all the staff. As the time would drone by, I would take to tapping out code with my fingertips quietly on the desk:

      "Di Dah Dah Dit, Di Dah Dit, Dah Dah Dah"
      (I think that was it, but I was never too good with code)

Somehow, subconsciously he would pick this out (signing off, signing off, signing off....), and within a few minutes he would suddenly end the meeting and we'd all get back to work. Nice guy, but he did have his weaknesses. I never did figure out how to tap out "four day weekend, four day weekend...".

Ultimately, I would have to say that morse code becomes quite second-nature after a time until you begin to see the sounds as letters in your head and spell words automatically. Once you hit that point, it is sort of like forgetting the alphabet -- you may not have sung the song or recited your ABCs since grade school, but you can do it at the drop of a hat.

Thomas Van Hare
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:53:05 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Morse code

> I always thought IMI was a question mark, an in an
> interrogative. I ( dit dit) M (dah dah) I (dit dit).
>
>         "Say again" was the letter R (dit-dah-dit), for "repeat."
>
>         How say the code guys and gals out there?

R is shorthand for "Received."  It also is a "prosign" or abbreviation for an affirmative, and means "yes," or "I copy."  Its use implies that you received the entire message.  Very bad form on-the-air is to say, "R R R but wud u please repeat..."

Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194

****************************************************************

From Ric

Is this horse dead yet?
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:57:31 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Re: Morse code

Tom Van Hare wrote:

>Ultimately, I would have to say that morse code becomes quite
>second-nature after a time until you begin to see the sounds as letters
>in your head and spell words automatically. Once you hit that point, it
>is sort of like forgetting the alphabet -- you may not have sung the
>song or recited your ABCs since grade school, but you can do it at the
>drop of a hat.

Actually, once a person gets to around 20 to 25 wpm solid, they start hearing words, not letters.  And you are right about not forgetting it, once you get to that point.

John Rayfield, Jr.
WB0NZM

**************************************************************

From Ric

What amazing instruments are the human ear and mind.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:22:10 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Questions for the Forum

1. A rough estimate of 1937 prices relative to todays is about 1:10, based upon the Consumer's Price Index for wages. Materials, I suspect, is a little higher. Think of the Electra costing about $1M, give or take.

2. Swan did not hear AE at all.  However, we do have evidence that the Ontario did hear AE.  The Ontario was located halfway between Lae and Howland.

3. Re Stafford's claim that the HF/DF on Howland was the same as the rig as AE had: that is what I remember from reading his manuscript (a couple of years ago).  I was surprised that he offered no basis for that "fact", other than "he knew everything about what was available for HF/DF in the Navy at the time, and it must have been that kind of unit".  These are not direct quotes, but paraphrases, again, based upon memory.  I would not venture he meant exactly the same rig, but based upon the same design: a breadboard designed to emulate the capabilities of AE's unit.

5. One of the great unsolved mysteries is exactly how Fred Noonan was introduced: who did it, and how did he get involved.  Based upon the extant record, he just sort of appears one day.  Perhaps he was a planted alien so that the abduction for the Voyager Star Trek episode could take place.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:23:26 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Interservice Radio Jargon

For Mike E:

The Army Historical Center in DC has the manuals and complete listings of their Z codes prior to WWII.  Let me know by e-mail if you want the exact reference.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:42:11 EST
From:         Dave Kelly
Subject:      Re: Morse code

I suppose this Morse code business is going somewhere, but I sure cannot tell where. In one of AE's transmissions, she acknowledged receipt of the Morse signals sent by Itasca.  She also told them that she wanted a voice transmission instead of coded messages.  This was a significant acknowledgement from her, being proof that her receiver was working. The emphasis on DF inoperability is not warranted, because the mere fact that her signal strength indicated close proximity to Itasca proved that Noonan's navigational accuracy was sufficient to locate Howland, though it would have been "nice" to have that extra bit of directional guidance. Monday morning quarterbacks abound in this mystery, and like belly buttons, everyone has their own opinion on what played the most crucial role in the accident.  The difference betweenTIGHAR's scenario and the scenarios of others are as varied as they are plausible. Proof is difficult to come by! For some scenarios, it is virtually impossible to produce the evidence. For others, an exhaustive, financially risky venture would ensue, with no guarantee of finding the aircraft.  Just for those reasons, I am confident that the mystery of AE will remain unsolved well after the millenium.

***************************************************************
From Ric

While I agree with much of the above (including that the morse code horse is dead) I do think that it is rather self evident that Noonan's ability was NOT sufficient to find Howland without the aid of DF, at least within the flights fuel constraints.  And, as you would expect, I'm not so sure that the mystery will remain unsolved well after the millennium (two ns).
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:49:40 EST
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Webphone

This might be a little off topic, but  might speed up information exchange on the Web.  I just discovered a computer program called "Webphone".  It allows you to talk anywhere in the world, for as long as you want with no long distance charges.

It sends Video,TXT, and audio all at the same time over  the computer in real time.  As I was searching the listing tonight, I found several listing on  South Pacific islands.  You just click "Call" and you are talking to a real person in some far off land.

I thought this information might help Forum members and researchers get more information faster.  If anybody is interested, they can contact me and I would be happy to tell them how it works.

I don't mean this to be a "Plug" for Webphone, but I think the possibilities for it's use are endless!
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:13:49 EST
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      Kanton and Palmyra

Regarding the attached blurb from Pacific Islands Report, I'm wondering what would tourists look at on Kanton?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pacific Islands Development Program/East-West Center

Center for Pacific Islands Studies/University of Hawai'i at Manoa

------------------------------------------------------------------------

FANNING ISLAND CRUISE STOP GIVES KIRIBATI A TOURISM BOOST

TARAWA, Kiribati (September 28, 1998 - PACNEWS/Amy)---Fanning Island (Tabuaeran) in Kiribati's Northern Line Islands Group has become the Pacific's newest tourist destination with the arrival last week of the cruise liner Norwegian Dynasty.

The ship is scheduled to visit Fanning Island and its untouched environmental beauty three times monthly during October, November and December.

Each cruise originates in Honolulu, sails to Kiritimati (Christmas Island) and Fanning Island, with occasional stops at Kanton Island and Palmyra Atoll, before voyaging back to Hawaii.

The new cruise itinerary, a significant boost to Kiribati's visitor industry, will enable more than 600 tourists per trip to explore the remote Micronesian area south of Hawaii.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Kanton might be interesting to WWII vets who were once stationed there, but the place is a wreck. It is, however, verrry interesting that the cruise line is venturing as far south as the Phoenix Group.  We need to have a little chat with these folks.

Thanks for the tip.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:59:28 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Signal Strength

Dave Kelly wrote:

>because the mere fact that her signal strength indicated close proximity to
>Itasca

Not necessarily.

Everyone (or at least, almost everyone) seems to hold to the idea that, because the radio signals were strong, that AE MUST have been close to Howland at that point. This simply isn't necessarily true at all.  If 'skip' conditions were in effect (which is VERY possible, considering the frequencies used and the time of day), then she could easily have been 200 to 300 miles away (or further), and the signals could still have been VERY strong (as if she was "right on top" of them).  Right now, it's 9:50 am local time, and I'm listening to a VERY strong station from Eclectic, Alabama (I'm in Springfield, Missouri) - about 520 miles apart - on 14 mhz. Of course, skip conditions change with the time of day (and year), so late this afternoon or later tonight, I might hear South American stations with similar signal strengths (VERY strong), as the skip 'lengthens out'. Considering the frequency that AE was using, and considering the time of day (early morning, local time), the skip conditions could have provided for VERY strong signals in the 200 to 300 mile (or possibly a little further) range.

My point is this - it is NOT a 'fact' that AE's strong signals indicated that she was close to Howland - FAR from a 'fact'.

I have a question - am I remembering correctly that she was heard, with a fairly good signal, and then was heard again, a little bit later, with a VERY strong signal, and then not long after the VERY strong signal, wasn't heard from again (as if she 'disappeared' from off the frequency)?  Am I remembering this  sequence correctly?  If not, can someone please refresh my memory?

   John Rayfield, Jr.
   WB0NZM
***************************************************************

From Ric

In the report submitted by Air Corps Lt. Daniel Cooper on 27 July 1937 there is a summary of the strength of transmissions received from Earhart on the morning of 2 July.  All times are local.

0345 --- very faint---S1 ("Will listen on hour and half on 3105...")
0445 --- faint --- S2 (not confirmed by log)
0600 --- fair --- S3 ("Two hundred miles out..." actually rec'd at 06:15)
0646 --- good --- S4 ("About 100 miles out.."
0741 --- very loud --- S5 ("We must be on you but can not see you...")
0750 --- very loud --- S5 ("We are listening(?) but can not hear you...")
0758 --- very loud --- S5 ("We rec'd your signals but unable to get a minimum.")
0843 --- very loud --- S5 ("We are on the line 157 337...")

"The radio operator reported that from 0741 on, her signal strength was at a maximum and judging from her volume, she was practically over Howland.  All this seems to indicate that she passed close to Howland, probably within 50 miles."

I'm not a radio guru, but this doesn't sound like skip to me.  This sounds like a steadily strengthening signal over a period of five hours.  It's also pretty apparent that the radio operators who were there did not feel that the signal strength was a function of skip.

The event which seems to have occasioned Itasca's abrupt failure to hear any further transmissions from Earhart was her change of frequency to 6210, which is what she said she was doing in the last transmission they heard (0843 local).

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:05:32 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Why Daryll won't join

Thanks Randy for your response to my questions.

***********************************************
>From Ric
>Jeez Daryll. If I'm gonna post this stuff you could at least join
>TIGHAR.
***********************************************

With all due respect;

1. I am poor. Yes, it is odd during these economic times in America.

2. I am part of the Forum that has been labeled "conspirator", because I believe AE/FN were working with the US Navy in the development and use of HF/DF technology that OP-20-G needed for their radio intelligence program before WWII. The most direct evidence of this is in AE's last radio transmissions where she requests a bearing be taken on her on 3105 kcs ( from the HF/DF radio on Howland ) and her own attempts to take a bearing on the Itasca on 7500 kcs, ( with her own HF/DF radio in the plane ). These requests are in the high frequency band. It is what Henery Morgenthau meant when he said, ".....absolutely disregarded all orders,......", because AE made indirect reference to the HF/DF equipment over the radio while there were newspaper people in the radio room on the Itasca, it doesn't appear they picked up on it though. The development and use of this HF/DF equipment helped the U.S. military win WWII, I don't know how AE could be more of a heroine than that.  I feel that TIGHAR with it's organization and drive has dropped the ball with this aspect of the Earhart mystery, because of some previous prejudice. I know the standards the Forum has for proof, I am familiar with your quote from the History channel, " If Amelia was working as a spy, it is the best kept secret in U.S. history." From a research standpoint, where you rely so much on the written word, it is most difficult to find the smoking gun. If I were conducting a class on KEEPING SECRETS 101;  rule #1 would be; DO NOT leave a paper trail, use personal contact as much as possible, do not keep personal records.

I have to admit that the Forum, fractionalized as it is,  has been most helpful with some of my thoughts on the subject.

Wouldn't it be most ironic if the TIGHAR EARHART FORUM was instrumental in defining the AE/FN - U.S. Navy connection.

Daryll
*****************************************************************
From Ric

Well, I can't do much about you being poor.  There'a lot of that going around. But I can assure you that we make no requirement that TIGHAR members agree with TIGHAR's theories.  If anything should be obvious from this forum it's that we encourage open discussion and (responsible) debate.

Believe it or not, none other than the Konspiracy King himself, Bill Prymak, the president of the Amelia Earhart Society of Researchers (who has published accusations about me that would be actionable if they came from anyone but Bill) is a dues-paying member of TIGHAR.  I'm sure that he considers it merely "intelligence gathering" but I'm all in favor of him doing anything he can to gather some intelligence.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:09:44 EST
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: signal Strength

I wonder if, using computers and the sunspot/rf propagation data available going back year by year to 1937, if we could at least tentatively reconstruct radio propagation conditions for that part of the globe at that time. Combined with bearings to stations from her approximate position, and their reception reports not only of her, but of anything, the two types of data, correlated, may shed some light on what was going on in the airwaves and how it may have affected both her and those trying to hear her.

Anything's worth a try!
Gene Dangelo, N3XKS,  #2211  :)
****************************************************************

From Ric

Certainly outside my pay grade, but I doubt that we have enough solid information to account for all the variable and come up with anything more than a guess.

I think we already have some pretty goods leads that may produce some hard results.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:15:57 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Radios & Cables - again

About 34 minutes into the History Channel pgm AE is shown holding a loop antenna.  A man with her (GPP?) holds what appears to be a piece of radio gear, rectangular with 2 concentric circles on the exposed side.  Goniometer guts??  Can this picture be dated?  Wonder if Mike has seen it, might identify it as part of the "second receiver" he suspected was aboard NR16020.  By the way check the cable on the loop - I think it's too large to be Artifact 2-3-V-1 but if you haven't already compared them, it might be worth a look.

LTM
Bill Moffet #2156

*****************************************************************
From Ric

The photo dates from the first week of march 1937 when the Bendix loop (we think it's an MN-5) was installed on the aircraft.  That's not GP.  He's a technician.  The box is a Bendix converter unit (as I recall).  Mike Everette, have you looked at his photo?  I can't remember.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:26:18 EST
From:         Dave Kelly
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

"Skip" conditions are, to my knowledge, a night or early morning phenomenom. A skip signal would be of variable strength, and cyclic. The readings recorded by Itasca denoted increasing increasing signal strength over time. This is not characteristic of "Skip"
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:53:49 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Ric wrote:

>I'm not a radio guru, but this doesn't sound like skip to me.  This sounds
>like a steadily strengthening signal over a period of five hours.  It's also
>pretty apparent that the radio operators who were there did not feel that the
>signal strength was a function of skip.

Well, I don't know everything about radio (that's what makes it so interesting - there's always something new to learn <g>), but I do hold a 1st Class Commerical Radiotelephone license and an Extra Class Amateur Radio license.  I've been a licensed 'ham' for over 24 years, and have worked in commercial 2-way communications for over 20 years (including some work with shortwave marine equipment).

MUCH has been learned about radio propagation over the last 50 years.  Just because radio operators THEN didn't believe this to be skip wouldn't necessarily mean that it wasn't skip.  I can see why a person would think that the signals could not have been 'skipping', due to the way that the signals improved in strength over a long time period (5 hours), but I do not believe that this can be ruled out entirely.  Maybe some further 'investigation' is in order?

>The event which seems to have occasioned Itasca's abrupt failure to hear any
>further transmissions from Earhart was her change of frequency to 6210, which
>is what she said she was doing in the last transmission they heard (0843
>local).

Key word - "seems".  This is an assumption, that may not be true.

If the strength of the signal was due to skip propagation (oh, and by the way, there are SEVERAL different 'forms' of skip propagation, not just one, all caused by different conditions), then this could also explain why a shift to a different frequency (especially a shift from around 3.5 to 6.2 mhz.) caused a loss of communications (even if she DID know what she was doing, and had changed to 6210 correctly).  MANY times, I have had excellent propagation on one frequency band, and have had NO propagation with the same station, on another one.  This is very common, since the things that effect radio propagation, effect different frequency bands in different ways and at different times of the day and year.

P.S. - Thanks for changing the Subject - I thought of this after I'd sent my last post. <g>

 John Rayfield, Jr.
 WB0NZM
******************************************************************
From Ric

If the phenomena which created the impression that the flight was steadily approaching Howland were, in fact, an illusion created by skip, then the flight could have, in reality, been anywhere in the Central Pacific (for example: taking photos over Truk).  Of course, we have absolutely no evidence (I am aware of) that the flight was not steadily approaching Howland. Worrying about this is like worrying about whether someone has broken into your home and replaced all your furniture with exact duplicates.

In 1994 Randy Jacobson found skip distance diagrams published by the Navy in 1937.  These charts attempted to predict blank spots for various frequencies at various distances from the transmitter.  According to this information, if the flight was between about 40 and 120 miles from Howland at 0843 in the morning, a switch from 3105 to 6210 would result in silence.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:58:36 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Re: signal Strength

Gene Dangelo wrote:

>I wonder if, using computers and the sunspot/rf propagation data
>available going back year by year to 1937, if we could at least
>tentatively reconstruct radio propagation conditions for that part of
>the globe at that time. Combined with bearings to stations from her
>approximate position, and their reception reports not only of her, but
>of anything, the two types of data,
>correlated, may shed some light on what was going on in the airwaves and
>how it may have affected both her and those trying to hear her.

I think that's a good idea.  There are numerous computer programs (even some free ones, available via the internet) for doing HF propagation studies and HF radio signal coverage analysis studies.  Problem is, IS there any sunspot/rf propagation data going back that far (the detailed kind, that would be needed for such an analysis)?  Did they understand enough of it at that time to keep any such information?  How far back did QST compile and print such information?

   John Rayfield, Jr.
   WB0NZM
*****************************************************************

From Ric

If somebody wants to take this on as a project, I say, fine.  Go for it.  But I think its an example of the kind of theoretical exercise that, while perhaps interesting, can't really move the search forward.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:54:02 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

I tried to get programs to do the sunspot/radio propagation codes from my Navy colleagues at NRaD (now SPAWAR) in San Diego, but I never got the code.  The biggest problem was that the propagation varies rapidly during the transition from night to dawn, so there would be alot of uncertainties.  Programs do exist out there; if anyone has a good lead, let me know.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:17:35 EST
From:         Jack
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Response to John Rayfields comments.

The comments John made regarding signal strength and skip are right on. If we were dealing with skip signals there is the possibility that AE/FN could have been further from Howland than they thought. In fact, (and this is purely hypothetical), the skip signal could have been getting stronger the FURTHER AWAY they were getting from Howland. However, having faith in the navigational skills of FN getting AE in the Howland area, I think we would be dealing with the surface wave componant of ground wave. There is also a space wave. On the plus side, the surface travels travels much further over water and would get progressively stronger as they closed on Howland. This fits nicely with the Itasca log signal strength readings. There is another componant however that may have had some affect on the radio signals and thats Grayline Propagation. I'll let the extra class licensee's handle that. He he he. Were there signal strength reports/logs available from the other monitoring stations i.e., USS Ontario, USS Swan, British cruiser Archilles and other land radio stations? It would be interesting to compare those logs with Itasca.

If AE did switch to 6210Kcs., she could have selected a freq. that skipped over Howland. But could that signal skip over all the other stations at varing distances listening for her. I would find that hard to believe. I feel something else happened on that airplane, in that cockpit. It could have been radio equipment or something that got AE's total attention. Funny, there was no "mayday."

Additional Comments:

It takes a very skilled radio operator to distinguish between a skip signal and a local or close signal and he/she will not be right every time. Certain sounds with the signal such as flutter and a signal that has a slight echo are clues to a local signal. These same characteristics sometimes are part of what is called a long path signal where you are receiving a multi-hop signal that has traveled completely around the globe.

Regards,
Dog six king,
Jack, W2BID, #2157
*****************************************************************

From Ric

Neither Swan nor Ontario nor Achilles seem to have copied any of Earhart's inflight transmissions to Itasca.  Nauru radio heard her as she passed nearby during the night.  There is one unconfirmed report that Nauru also heard the same voice on 6210 late the next morning say " Land in sight ahead."  There is also a documented report that Nauru heard an unintellible voice transmission on 6210 that evening which sounded like the same voice "but without the hum of the plane in the background."
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:26:49 EST
From:         Scott Zaden
Subject:      Lae runway info

Below you will read but a single paragraph from the United States Military Intelligence Operatives' report on the condition of Lae Runaway on 7/1/37.

----------------
The runway extends in a general east to west configuration with the wind there being almost constantly out of the west to the east or in rare cases, east to west. The runway is actually built up on one end so that it extends outward toward what appears to be a sudden drop off over water. I would also add that I get a strong sense this is a very primitive runway, as it is completely enclosed with jungle. The jungle trees have been pushed back quite a way, perhaps six hundred feet from the runway. But, many of these trees are still quite high (some in excess of 100 feet tall), which makes this a very hazardous runway to land on from any direction other than coming in dead-on, or centered on either end. The seaplane facility seems to be in disrepair or is no longer used, having been replaced by this runway.
----------------

This information is not available today as that old runway is vastly different. This paragraph nonetheless provides an example of the kind of detail available. We probably should talk again as I have the ability to save Tighar a lot of time and money.

Best regards,
Scott Zaden

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Talk away.  A "United States Military Intelligence Operative" at Lae on 7/1/37?  What, pray tell, is the source of this information?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:33:21 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Radios & Cables - again

If this is the photo I think it is, then it was part of the research report Ric loaned me which dealt with NR16020 and radios and antennas (and which I used as a starting point for my own Technical Analysis of the radios on the AE plane).  Therefore, I have seen that one.  The cable is definitely too large to be that artifact.  Indeed, the one in the photo appeared to be about an inch or more in diameter (very much like the later loop-to-receiver cables used in the WW2 vintage SCR-269 and AN/ARN-7 radio compasses) and also covered with a light outer jacket, perhaps even a braided metal shield.

The aritfact is a small cable, about 1/4 inch diameter, and is single conductor with a shield.  It has a black rubber outer jacket.

73
Mike E.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:35:33 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Skip conditions are not merely a night or early morning phenomenon.  Skip does vary with frequency and time of day, as the ionospheric layers change in response to sunlight.  Higher frequencies skip quite well in daylight, and lower ones do better at night.  This is a complex subject but that's a simple overview.

I can certainly envision skip phenomena on 6210 in daylight  Skip on 3105 would tend to diminish as the sun came up.  Again this is a very simplified view.  If you want a better one, look at the chapter dealing with radio wave propagation in any edition of the Radio Amateur's Handbook, published by the American Radio Relay League, Newington, CT.  If that is not enough to satisfy, I can recommend any one of several dozen weighty engineering tomes.

73
Mike E.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:40:04 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: signal Strength

I am pretty certain that sunspot records exist back at least 100 years, from observations made at (among other places) the Naval Observatory.  I think this would be an excellent line of research.  Someone with more familiarity than myself, with this form of investigation, should pursue it however.

This might well answer a number of vexing questions or give us some needed new insight.

73
Mike E.

****************************************************************

From Ric

Been there.  Done that.  1937 was a peak year in the 11 year cycle.  Lots of skip was possible.  You can use that fact to make all kinds of speculation about the transmissions heard by Itasca and have even more fun with the post-loss transmissions allegedly heard in places like Wyoming and even Maine.  But at the end of the exercise it's still all speculation.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:45:12 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Dave Kelly wrote:

>"Skip" conditions are, to my knowledge, a night or early morning
>phenomenom. A skip signal would be of variable strength, and cyclic. The
>readings recorded by Itasca denoted increasing increasing signal
>strength over time. This is not characteristic of "Skip"

"Skip" is MOST definitely not limited to night or early morning.  It occurs at ALL times of the day and night, throughout the year, depending upon frequency used.  And it can increase, or decrease, at a consistent rate, in some cases.

   John Rayfield, Jr.
   WB0NZM
*****************************************************************

From Ric

This "skip" horse is starting to look just like the "morse" horse did just before the vet had to put him down.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:25:36 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Ric wrote:

>If the phenomena which created the impression that the flight was steadily
>approaching Howland were, in fact, an illusion created by skip, then the
>flight could have, in reality, been anywhere in the Central Pacific (for
>example: taking photos over Truk).

The 'skip zone' (from Howland to the West) would have been getting shorter and shorter, as the sun came up over Howland.  Of course she was also traveling East, so as the skip zone shortened, she would have been getting closer and closer to Howland.  This could easily have been the reason for the gradual increase in signal strength, finally resulting in a very strong signal, if she was traveling slightly faster than the skip zone was shortening.  However, at that time of day, she still could possibly have been much further from Howland than what she thought, and the signal strength could still have been very strong.

This all may sound like 'black magic' - totally unpredictable - but is IS VERY predictable, at times -  "Been there, done that", as they say.

>Of course, we have absolutely no evidence (I am aware of) that the flight
>was not steadily approaching Howland.
>Worrying about this is like worrying about whether someone has broken into
>your home and replaced all your furniture with exact duplicates.

Yes, but the assumption has been that she was within 50 miles of Howland, at the point of maximum signal strength, which is an assumption that is NOT necessarily supported by facts.  Skip conditions could have produced this same effect.  IF the Itasca was hearing her via 'skip', then that means that she was not where everyone has assumed that she was, at that time.

>In 1994 Randy Jacobson found skip distance diagrams published by the Navy in
>1937.  These charts attempted to predict blank spots for various frequencies
>at various distances from the transmitter.  According to this information, if
>the flight was between about 40 and 120 miles from Howland at 0843 in the
>morning, a switch from 3105 to 6210 would result in silence.

The same could possibly be said if she was further from Howland, at this time of day, and switched from 3105 to 6210.  That's where better analysis of this subject comes into the picture - to determine if she could have, in fact, been further from Howland than what has been thought.

   John Rayfield, Jr.
   WB0NZM
*****************************************************************

From Ric

I'm not opposed, in principle, to an analysis of radio propagation characteristics in the Central Pacific at the time of the Earhart disappearance.  I can not, however, expend scarce resources on lines of inquiry which do not offer the possibility of materially advancing the investigation. In this case, does anyone imagine that enough of the variables can be eliminated to permit a conclusion that would amount to more than speculation? Let's say that somehow we could determine with some degree of certainty that two scenarios were possible:

1.  Earhart and Noonan were pretty much on course but not close enough to find Howland without assistance from radio.  Skip did not play a significant role in the events.
2.  Earhart and Noonan were significantly off course but skip created the illusion that they were much closer to Howland than they were.

Should this alternative scenario prove possible or even probable would it alter our search plans?  Would it negate any of the evidence that has caused us to focus our search on Nikumaroro?

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:28:56 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on Radio, Interservice Equipment etc

Dave wrote:

>However, I recently read that the services are working together for the next
>generation aircraft to have interchangeable parts (carrier stuff would still
>have beefier frames, etc, but essentially the same aircraft) so as to reduce
>the purchase price and maintenance costs.  HALLELLUJAH!!!

Dave, don't bet any money on it until you see the finished product, which
is still several years away.

>From Ric
>It's an old song.  Remember the McDonnell F-4?

Remember the F-111?

Tom
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:31:20 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Re: signal Strength

Ric wrote:

>If somebody wants to take this on as a project, I say, fine.  Go for it.  But
>I think its an example of the kind of theoretical exercise that, while perhaps
>interesting, can't really move the search forward.

I think some people may have the mistaken idea that skip propagation is totally unpredictable.  This simply isn't the case - it's often VERY predictable.  For example, at certain times of the year, I can depend upon skip conditions on 7 mhz. to allow me to visit with a friends of mine in Arkansas and Dallas, Texas, every Sunday afternoon at 5:00 pm to 6:00 pm., with signal levels that sound like they're sitting in the same room with me. It's very dependable.   And the military depends upon such skip propagation all the time, for HF (shortwave) communications around the world.

I'm somewhat limited on the amount of time that I have to spend on this, but if someone else wants to help me dig up some propagation information for 1937, I'll see what I can find in the way of analysis software.

   John Rayfield, Jr.
   WB0NZM
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:56:44 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Pan Am HF/DF

The following is a cut and paste from a Pan Am website. I found it interesting for a couple of things.

1. It is from someone who worked at Pan Am who might have been in some of the same conditions AE/FN found themselves in.

2.  Mr. Peacock talks of a " ....long curving approach....". Is this a characteristic of HF/DF?

I would ask the Forum to recall AE's crossing of the Atlantic between South America and Africa. I believe they were off course when they reached the coast of Africa. Could this be the result of HF/DF homing? Could AE have homing on Itasca's weather broadcasts??

******************************************************
Re: Early Pan Am Flight Navigators

Posted by Dick Peacock on November 23, 1998 at 03:01:23:
In Reply to: Re: Early Pan Am Flight Navigators posted by Maurice Wachtel on November 11, 1998 at 21:09:06:

1941 Boeing 314 Flying Boats, as Radio Operator we did lots of manual DF work, using BC stations near the US coast, VRT (BDA) and CTH Horta on 333 and 1638 kc on approaches. On BDA to Azores leg, there were some HF (3285 and 5165 kc) Adcock bearings passed to us from Nova Scotia and Newfoundland stations, but they were not very accurate. We also took bearings on the USCG weather ships at mid-Atlantic stations. We also did some transmitting for the BDA and Horta stations to take bearing on us. Seems we always ended the long legs quite a bit off the track and made a long curving approach as the DF results improved. Way out from the station, the audible null could be very wide, like 50 degrees, and also swinging a lot. Wow, what a difference from later facilities, and GPS! Check for more info with Bob Norloff who was FRO with PAA and ARAMCO same time frame.

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Fortunately, we don't have to rely on 58 year-old recollections of procedures which were in use 4 years after the Earhart/Noonan flight.  Fred himself wrote about the techniques he used and the extent to which he did, and did not, rely upon DF while surveying the Pacific routes for Pan Am in 1935/36.  Randy Jacobson has made quite a study of Noonan's navigational methods based on Fred's writngs and the notations on the maps he used.

In my experience (and I, of course, invite comment from those with more time juggling ADF approaches than I have), "long curving approaches" sounds like the natural result of any DFing process which has to deal with gradually increasing accuracy as you approach the station.

No HF/DF homing, or any other kind of homing was used on the South Atlantic crossing.  According to Noonan's letter to Gene Palette, written immediately after that flight (another never-before-seen document uncovered by TIGHAR, thanks to the efforts of Don Jordan 2109), .."our radio was out of order - it would be in such a jam."

Was Earhart DFing on the Itasca's weather broadcasts?  I can't find any indication in anything she said or did that would suggest that she was.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:22:25 EST
From:         Bob
Subject:      Radio Operator Noonan

I am quoting the following from an article, you sent me sometime back," Amelia Didn't Know Radio," by Captain Almon A. Gray, USNR Retired.  It was published in the United States Naval Institute Publication of Naval History, November/December 1993, page 49:

QUOTE  Fredrick J. Noonan: From personal observation, the writer knows that as of late 1935 Noonan could send and receive plain language at slow speeds, around eight to ten words per minute.  Recent research by Noonan Biographer Michael A. Lang has revealed that circa 1931 Noonan held a Second Class Commercial Radio operator license issued by the Radio Division of the U.S. Department of  Commerce.  The license, which was valid for two years, certified that the holder was capable of: "Transmitting and sound reading at a speed of not less than sixteen words a minute Continental Morse in code groups and twenty words a minute in plain language."  UNQUOTE.

For those on the forum not familiar, Captain Almond A. Gray was, in the 1930s, Assistant Superintendent of Communications for the Pacific Division of Pan American Airways, based at San Francisco.  He is now deceased.

LTM

Bob
*****************************************************************

From Ric

A classic case of how much credence should be given an anecdotal allegation? Gray is saying in 1993 that 58 years earlier "from personal observation" he knows that Noonan could send and receive around eight to ten words per minute.

I've never heard of "Noonan Biographer Michael A. Lang" and Gray doesn't say how Lang knows that "circa 1931 Noonan held a Second Class Commercial Radio operator license issued by the Radio Division of the U.S. Department of Commerce."

Everything Gray says may be true, or not.  He gives us no way to tell. So far, the only hard evidence we have is  Earhart's pre-flight instructions to Itasca to send only voice, and Chater's post-loss report that neither AE or Fred had any meaningful ability with morse at the time of the lae/Howland flight. Whether that was because they never had any, or had forgotten it, seems immaterial.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:37:20 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Brains Wanted

I'd like everyone to pay special attention to the following call for assistance from our Development Director for Education, Barb Norris.  The educational aspect of the Earhart Project is the most important part of what we do and the National Science Foundation grant we're going after could be the key to realizing the project's eduactional potential.  Barb is not asking for your dollars.  She's asking for your brains. (I'M the one who is after your dollars.)  If you have the qualifications and the desire to help out, please respond directly to her at Airheart1@aol.com.

Thanks and Love to mother,
Ric
*****************************************************************

From Barbara Norris 2175 (Airheart1@aol.com)
TIGHAR Development Director for Education

As everyone reading the forum knows, fundraising for all of TIGHAR's research is ongoing.  In late February, we have the opportunity to submit a grant proposal to the National Science Foundation (NSF) for possible funding.  If we are fortunate enough to be awarded a grant, it could provide us with a substantial amount of money that will allow the development of educational/instructional materials to be used in conjunction with the Niku IIII expedition.  The NSF is known to grant generous sums but it has rigid and specific guidelines that must be adhered to.  As you'd guess from their name, the major focus of their interests lie in areas of Science, Math and Technology (SMT).

While I'm knowledgeable in the field of education, my expertise is primarily in Language Arts, Social Studies and across-the-curriculum unit development. There are hundreds of interdisciplinary applications, and while the NSF is happy to hear about them, the emphasis is on SMT.  So here's where you might be of help.  Given the subject matter of the Earhart Project, it's necessary to the grant application content that we provide examples of how Science, Math and Technology can be applied.  If any of you are teachers and/or have had experience writing curricula, it would be beneficial (and greatly appreciated) to have your suggestions and input about ways that the AE research can be incorporated into teaching SMT.  For example, navigation can be directly correlated to aspects of measurement and trigonometry.  The proposal would need to state specifically what that would look like in terms of teaching a middle or high school math class.  Get the idea?

Our overall approach so far has been that any aspect of the research can be adapted, adjusted and modified to meet the needs of students from third grade to high school.  Consideration needs to be given to curriculum and material development, as well as assessment.  So all you educators reading the forum, put on your thinkin' caps and see what you can come up with for the good of the cause.

In hopeful anticipation,
Barbara Norris, TIGHAR Development Director for Education
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:38:57 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Ric wrote:

>Worrying about this is like worrying about whether someone has broken into
>your home and replaced all your furniture with exact duplicates.

Ooh, I hate it when that happens...

Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:41:04 EST
From:         Ted Whitmore
Subject:      R-4360 Engines

Been catching up a whole bunch of forum digests:  To correct an error in one of the Christmas time issues about the HK-1:

R-4360 engines were 4,000 hp.  We flew them on the C/F model C-119 (C model with F model engines) with 4 paddle blade props, 16' 8" diameter.  With water injection, at 62 1/2 inches of manifold pressure turned up 4,215 hp and would pull the 119 off of the runway after about 130 - 150 yds of take-off run.

Best new year wishes to all,  Ted Whitmore #2169  <\\\><
And yes, USCG on Atafu Island, 1945.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:46:42 EST
From:         Chuck Jackson
Subject:      skip software

Sept and Oct '96 QST  "Heavy Duty HF Propagation/Analysis Software".

by the by----there are many more factors beside sunspots that affect radio wave propagation.  "SKIP" is a crude generalization of what happens.  As early as 1935 a phenom. named "ducting" was discussed in the literature.  I'll find it. 73's.

Regards,  chuck,  N6SPA & former
artillery comm.chief.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:04:06 EST
From:         Fred G
Subject:      Gerald's brother

Terrance Hugh Gallagher 6207239, 2nd Bn Royal Irish Fusilliers, one of four killed by a fire in a store at Ta' Qali airfield on 21 March 1942, buried at Pembroke Cemetery, info from Commonwealth War Graves Commission.  His parents from Kensington, London.

****************************************************************

From Ric

Excellent info.  Questions:

Is (was) Ta' Qali airfield on Malta?

Where is Pembroke Cemetery?

I wonder if the Gallagher's Kensington address was a wartime convenience of if they were, in fact, city folk.

The Irish Fusiliers.  What does this tell us about the family?  Could anyone join the unit or did you have to, for example, be a British subject living in Ireland?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:41:30 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      What Nauru heard

Ric wrote:

>Neither Swan nor Ontario nor Achilles seem to have copied any of Earhart's
>inflight transmissions to Itasca.  Nauru radio heard her as she passed nearby
>during the night.  There is one unconfirmed report that Nauru also heard the
>same voice on 6210 late the next morning say " Land in sight ahead."  There is
>also a documented report that Nauru heard an unintellible voice transmission
>on 6210 that evening which sounded like the same voice "but without the hum of
>the plane in the background."

What time of evening was it, when that signal was heard on Nauru?

   John
   WB0NZM
*****************************************************************

From Ric

The following telegram, now in the National Archives, was stamped received by the U.S. State Department on July 8th 1937 from Sydney, Australia via Tutuilla, Samoa via Nauru.   It was apparently originally received in Australia at 2:42 p.m. on July 3rd, 1937 and was sent back out to the U.S. at 10 p.m. the same day.  (I don't know why it didn't get logged in at State until the 8th.)

*************

Amalgamated Wireless state information received that report from Nauru was sent to Bolinas radio " at 6.31, 6.43, and 6.54 p.m. Sydney time today on 48.31 meters, fairly strong signals, speech not intelligible, no hum of plane in background but voice similar that emitted from plane in flight last night between 4.30 and 9.30 p.m."

Message from plane when at least 60 miles south of Nauru received 8.30 p.m., Sydney time, July second saying "a ship in sight ahead".  Since identified as steamer MYRTLEBANK which arived Nauru daybreak today.  Reported no contact between Itasca and Nauru radio.  Continuous watch being maintained by Nauru radio and suva radio.

****************************

Today, Nauru time is one hour earlier than Sydney, so the transmissions would have been received at 5.31, 5.43, and 5.54 p.m. Nikumaroro is another hour (or hour and a half depending on what system you're using) earlier.  In any event, these transmissions were heard during hours of daylight.  As I understand it, 48.31 meters is 6210 Kcs.  Whoever is sending these transmissions appears to be sending more or less on the half hour, three-quarter hour, and on the hour.

This is one of the more credible of the alleged post-loss calls from the Electra.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:45:14 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Secrets 101

Daryll wrote:

>If I were conducting a class on
>KEEPING SECRETS 101; rule #1 would be; DO NOT leave a paper trail, use
>personal contact as much as possible, do not keep personal records.

There has already been plenty written on Keeping Secrets 101, most of it produced by the CIA, NSA, FBI and a few others, and Rule One is: "The Need to Know" (usually written in bold face, ALL CAPS with a branding iron.)  What it means is to tell no one any thing unless they are cleared for the material and have a demonstrated need to know the information.

Sorry to truncate your writing career, Daryll, but there are always plenty of openings for coaches in the NFL.

LTM, who never tells a secret
Dennis McGee #0149
*****************************************************************

From Ric

There are other rules for keeping secrets but I'm not at liberty to discuss them.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:02:15 EST
From:         Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Beldon Cable

Whatever happened to the Beldon Cable effort to identify the cable?  I've tried to keep up with the postings and I don't recall seeing anything about it.  jerry ellis  #2113

***************************************************************

From Ric

The best Beldon could do was consult with a former-employee who "knew everything."  Not exactly rocket science and, so far, we've heard nothing. Our own esteemed Radio Historian, Mike Everette , has done considerable research on the subject.  He has already established that the cable is from the right time period.  Now he's trying to determine if it might be associated with the Loran station.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:04:50 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

>Should this alternative scenario prove possible or even probable would it
>alter our search plans?  Would it negate any of the evidence that has caused
>us to focus our search on Nikumaroro?

I suspect that it might add more evidence to that existing already, that they likely went down on, or near, Nikumaroro.

   John
   WB0NZM
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:08:14 EST
From:         Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Earhart song

As you requested, a copy of the song "Courage," Earhart's poem put to music will be in the mail today.  jerry ellis #2113

*****************************************************************

From Ric,

Thanks Jerry.  I look forward to it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:12:53 EST
From:         Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

I understand skip and agree that the signal level "could" be strong yet place the origin of the transmission far away.

I don't know anything about navigation but if FN were confident he was "flying north and south along the line" wouldn't that put them close to Howland and negate any skip arguments?  jerry ellis  #2113

****************************************************************

From Ric

Well, I've always thought so but once you give a bunch of radio guys an excuse to argue propagation theory all you can do is stand back and hold on to something.

I always thought that Skip was the name of George Bush's evil twin. =========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:55:22 EST
From:         Terri
Subject:      Re: Why Nikumaroro

After watching the History Channel presentation of Amelia Earhart - I'm curious - why aren't you also searching Saipan as so many facts (from seemingly creditable people) point to her having been taken there?

Thanks,
Terri
*****************************************************************
From Ric

Because you can't get facts "from seemingly creditable people."  What you can get from seemingly credible people are stories which then can be investigated to determine whether there are any facts (as established by contemporaneous documents, datable photographs, or identifiable artifacts) to back them up. None of the Saipan stories check out.  Some of the Nikumaroro stories do. That's why we're searching on Nikumaroro and not Saipan.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:23:11 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Nauru

1. Am I correct in saying that fuel exhaustion should have been around 12:45 p.m. Howland time ?

From Ric:

More like 12:39 if everything went perfectly according to Kelly Johnson's figures (which is not very likely).

2. Would the time that Nauru heard those transmissions be 4:31p.m., 4:43p.m., 4:54p.m. Howland time the same day?

From Ric:

1999 Howland time, yes.  1937 U.S. Navy time it would be 4:01, 4:13, and 4:24.

3. Can the position of the steamer MYRTLEBANK be established for 8:30 p.m. the night before when AE was supposed to have passed overhead or nearby ( ship in sight transmission )?

From Ric:

Randy Jacobson has done a lot of work on this question.  Randy?

3a. I know Nauru was about midway between Lae and Howland, and I think a British possession. I believe that AE was briefed on how Nauru should appear at night with the lights from the phosphate mine, which was Japan's source for phosphate during WWII.

From Ric:

Roughly halfway but considerably north of course.  Yes, a British possesion. AE was not "briefed" about Nauru.  A weather report gratuitously included a comment about a new light at Nauru. Who was Nauru radio? government, civilian ?

From Ric:

Not sure.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:55:14 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Brains Wanted

My God!  Almost all of my research on AE revolves around mathematics and technology!  Navigation, time zones, how radio works, effects of wind and weather on aircraft; weather reports and how to interpret them, bad/inaccurate maps; determining what people knew at the time; forensics, logic, deduction and induction theory, geometry, spherical geometry (ugh!)..it goes on and on!  If you want me for classroom teaching (I taught graduate school!), let me know.

****************************************************************

From Ric

There you go Barb.  Sounds like a resource to me.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:58:23 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Coordinates of Nikumaroro

Can someone give the Lat and Long for Nikumaroro?

   John Rayfield, Jr.
   WB0NZM
****************************************************************
From Ric

4 degrees, 40 minutes South Lat., 174 degrees, 32 minutes West Long.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:10:27 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Nauru

The Myrtlebank was running from New Zealand to Nauru that night, and was expected the following morning at Nauru.  Because of the poor pier facilities at Nauru, they had to wait until dawn, and slowed down the night before, according to correspondence from the 3rd mate.  I can guestimate their position well E/W, but poorly N/S.  By the way, the 3rd mate, who was on watch from 8-12 PM that night, distinctly heard a plane go overhead.

Hmm.  Was it the ship that AE saw?  Computer runs indicate AE should have been half-way between Ontario and Myrtlebank at 1030GMT, so it is anybody's guess.  If AE gave her postion report at 0720 GMT based upon a actual position determination prior to 30 minutes or more, then the Myrtlebank would be it; of less, Ontario was more likely.

Nauru radio was an Amalgamated Wireless commercial station.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:36:38 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Time Zones 101

I think I'm confused about the time. If it is say 6:00 p.m. in Sydney wouldn't it be 7:00 p.m. in Nauru and 8:00 p.m. in Howland?? If we take Howland and move it to New York where it is 9:00 p.m. and move Sydney to L.A. it should be 6:00 p.m. right???

 Barb,     Add this to your list.
Help students to tell time in different zones ! !

Daryll

******************************************************************

From Ric

You're not confused.  I am.  You're right.  6:31p.m., 6:43p.m., 6:54p.m. in Sydney would be an hour later on Nauru and still another hour later at Howland (or hour and a half if you're talking Navy time).
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:42:38 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Pan Am HF/DF

Ric wrote:

> In my experience (and I, of course, invite comment from those with more time
> juggling ADF approaches than I have), "long curving approaches" sounds like
> the natural result of any DFing process which has to deal with gradually
> increasing accuracy as you approach the station.

I seem to remember that a "long curving approach" is one where you fly and take several bearings, horizontally displaced from the direct line to the station, thus giving you a couple of lines that cross, a crude distance measuring strategy. Someone who is more familiar with older radio navigation techniques can correct this, but I believe that this is right. Otherwise, you are talking about "tracking" vs. "homing", which is taught in ADF navigation (or really used to be, since ADF is now going by the wayside - thankfully).

Thomas Van Hare
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:26:41 EST
From:         Dave Kelly
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Actually, there was a "Mayday" of sorts. She did indicate that fuel was running low. She may not have expected the tanks to run dry when they did.  Being at a low altitude, and unable to raise Itasca, she may have had time to broadcast a quick mayday before the crash.  A similar accident occurred near JFK when a foreign airliner notified the approach controllers;  "We're running out of fuel, sir" This was to convey to the controllers that their fuel state was critical. The controller gave them a "New York Priority Handling" vector (15 miles from the marker, instead of the usual 16) acknowledging the fuel problem in the form of a query "Is that okay with your fuel problem?"  "I guess so" was the reply. Two minutes later, the 707s turbines quit colder than a mackerel, and the airplane crashed into a neighborhood.  If the pilot had just declared an emergency, the controllers would have given the flight clearance for the approach at the unheard of distance of FOURTEEN miles from the marker!!! Pilots generally don't want to whine about things to controllers, but when the chips are down, they suddenly embrace a religious belief that someone on the ground can solve all their problems. AE was not at that stage when she transmitted the final LOP course. Perhaps her last dying breath was broadcast to the wind and waves.
****************************************************************
From Ric

Earhart's sceduled broadcast times were at quarter past and quarter to the hour.

At 07:42 local time (19 hours and 12 minutes into the flight) Earhart is reported to have said:

"We must be on you but cannot see you, but gas is running low.  Been unable to reach you by radio.  We are flying at 1000 feet."

The timing of this message corresponds with when she should have been starting to burn her 20% (5 hour) fuel reserve.  Hence, "gas is running low."

Around 08:00 there was an exchange about the signals on 7500 kcs.

At 08:15 there may have been a transmission from the airplane but Itasca could not have heard it because they were transmitting on 3105 at that time.

At 08:43 Earhart transmitted again, on schedule, describing what she was doing to try to find land and saying that she was changing frequencies.  While her voice reportedly sounded hurried and anxious she was not frantic or panicky.

Pilots are, indeed, frequently guilty of understating the seriousness of the situation (been there, done that)  but Earhart's transmissions, as you seem to acknwledge, sound like a concerned pilot trying to resolve a communications and navigational dilemma.  Of course, at some time following the last transmission received by Itasca, something totally unexpected could have happened (fuel exhaustion, fire, alien abduction, etc.) and her last dying breath could have been broadcast to the wind and waves.  There is just no evidence that anything like that happened and considerable evidence to indicate that something else happened.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:35:11 EST
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Gallagher's brother

Ric wrote:

>Excellent info. Questions:
>Is (was) Ta' Qali airfield on Malta?
>Where is Pembroke Cemetery?
>I wonder if the Gallagher's Kensington address was a wartime convenience
>if they were, in fact, city folk.
>The Irish Fusiliers. What does this tell us about the family? Could
>anyone join the unit or did you have to, for example,
>be a British subject living inIreland?

Yes - I believe Ta'Qali  airfield is in Malta and was one of the wartime bases. Pembroke Cemetery is presumably in Pembroke town in south west Wales.  This is quite a long way from other known addresses / places we can link the Gallagher family to. I'll see if I can find any other "Pembrokes".

Ref: the Kensington address - this is the first I've heard of this address. Could this be the London address that Gerald's mother was doing "war work" from at the time he died on Gardner ?   What's the address ?

LTM
Simon #2120

*****************************************************************

From Ric

I don't see a Kensington address in the file.  Edith had her mail sent c/o Barclay's Bank in Southwark.  Is Kensington near Southwark?

Wales?  Swell.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:45:36 EST
From:         Scott Zaden
Subject:      Re: Lae runway info

Surprised to end up on the forum. The source of the information is included in the first sentence. No, there was never a former intelligence operative physically at Lae Island in 1937. That does not impact the fact a report was generated. The reason I forwarded that paragraph was so that you would have a chance to judge the authenticity of the information. It may be the last word in the condition of the runway at Lae and I hope enthusiasts enjoy it.

Let me go to the reason I wrote. I am attempting to get a look at the latest maps of Nikurmoraro but have been stymied. Do you consider the maps you have to be available to researchers or strictly proprietary?

Best regards,

Scott
*****************************************************************
From Ric

Your first sentence reads:

>Below you will read but a single paragraph from the United States Military
>Intelligence Operatives' report on the condition of Lae Runaway on 7/1/37.

That does not give us the source.  Where is this supposed report archived?  Do you have a copy of the document? What branch of the military gathered this information? Who was this supposed "intelligence operative?"  Where did he get his information?

I can't possibly judge the authenticity of the information until I know where it came from.

And, by the way, Lae isn't an island.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:39:41 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Lae takeoff info

Sorry.  I forgot to answer Scott's question about maps.

There's nothing proprietary about maps of Nikumaroro.  They're readily available from any reputable map store, although you'll proably have to order them.  Ask for British Admiralty Chart 184, Pacific Ocean, Plans of the Phoenix Islands.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:08:39 EST
From:         Hugh Graham
Subject:      Re: Radio Operator Noonan

Ric wrote:

>  So far, the only hard evidence we have is Earhart's pre-flight
>  instructions to Itasca to send only voice, and Chater's post-loss
>  report that neither AE nor Fred had any meaningful ability with
>  morse at the time of the Lae/Howland flight.  Whether that was
>  because they never had any, or had forgotten it, seems immaterial.

AE asks for voice-only and then uses 3105Khz and 6210Khz on her receiver, after having been told by the Coast Guard that Itasca can't transmit HF voice?  What is your opinion on this paradox?

Also, even though Eric Chater wrote in 1937 that "neither AE nor Fred had any meaningful ability with morse" doesn't make it true. That could have been his assumption.  He never heard morse from the L10E because AE left the morse key in Miami.

After reading on the forum many times from many sources, anecdotal accounts of Fred's abilities, odds are that Fred could do morse, but that AE never gave Fred the opportunity.  Its anecdotal, but it makes sense.  I think we incorrectly assume that AE's pronouncements apply to Fred also.

Where do we read "Amelia Didn't Know Radio" by Capt. Gray?  Seems to strike at the truth.  Thanks in advance.  LTM.  Regards, HAGraham 2201.

****************************************************************

From Ric

Where did you get the idea that AE was told that Itasca could not transmit voice?  She wasn't, they certainly could, and they certainly did.  There is no paradox.

Chater's statement was that "On enquiry Miss Earhart and Captain Noonan advised that they entirely depended on radio telephone reception as neither of them were able to read morse at any speed but could recognise an individual letter sent several times."  I don't know how he could be much clearer than that.  Of course, him saying so doesn't not make it true, but in the absence of any evidence to the contrary we have no choice but to accept it as truth - unless, of course, we're more interested in  advancing our own personal agenda than in finding the truth.  So far, despite all the discussion about morse, I have not seen one piece of evidence to contradict Chater's statement.

Almon Gray's article appeared in the November/December 1993 issue of Naval History, published by the United States Naval Institute.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:11:44 EST
From:         Frederick Galea
Subject:      Re: Gerald's brother

Both Ta' Qali airfield and Pembroke cemetery are at Malta.  The Royal Irish Fusiliers were predominantly Catholic.

Regards,
Frederick Galea

****************************************************************

From Ric

Ah HA!  Thank you.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:16:43 EST
From:         Skeet Gifford
Subject:      R-4360 Engines

This is WAY off topic and probably not worthy of dissemination, but in the interest of accuracy, I must offer a few corrections to Ted Whitmore's recollection of the R4360 engine and the C-119 C/F.

The Pratt & Whitney R-4360-20WA (Four thousand three hundred sixty cubic inches!) as installed in the C-119B, C and CF was rated at 3,500 horsepower with water/alcohol injection at 2,700 rpm and 61.5 inHg, providing it was fueled with 115/145 aviation gas (no longer available). It was rated at 3,250 hp dry. Rated hp with fuel available today (100/130) is significantly lower.

The "water" was actually a mixture of 50 percent alcohol. The airplane was serviced with 56 gallons which could provide both engines for 7-8 minutes.

The difference between the C and CF were the flaps and gear, not the engines. The C had the troublesome electric gear and flaps (gear up and everything goes black!) while the CF had the hydraulically actuated gear and flaps of the F, G and J. The F, G and J models were equipped with the Wright R-3350-89A which, thanks to power recovery turbines, developed the same horsepower as the 4360.

The above information is taken from USAF Flight Handbook (T.O. 1C-119B-1CP, or in contemporary vernacular, Dash One). Also, I "survived" 2,500 hours in the C-119C, CF, G and J. My last flight in the $1.19 was 34 years ago last Sunday.

Skeet Gifford 1371C
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:23:25 EST
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Gallagher's brother

>From Ric
>I don't see a Kensington address in the file. Edith had her mail sent
>c/oBarclay's Bank in Southwark. Is Kensington near Southwark?
>Wales? Swell.

So what's the Kensington address you refered to earlier ?

Yes - Southwark and Kensington are both central London.

LTM
Simon #2120
*****************************************************************
From Ric

Hey, don't look at me.  The reference to a Kensington addrerss came from

Fred. G.

Terrance Hugh Gallagher 6207239, 2nd Bn Royal Irish Fusilliers, one of four killed by a fire in a store at Ta' Qali airfield on 21 March 1942, buried at Pembroke Cemetery, info from Commonwealth War Graves Commission.  His parents from Kensington, London.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:41:02 EST
From:         Bob Lee
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

I would like to know what would AE done had she made voice contact with Itasca? How would that have altered her situation?  If she could not see the Itasca and they could not see her, how would voice have helped to guide her to Howland?

Thanks Bob Lee
****************************************************************
From Ric

Very interesting question.  Any answer would be purely speculative but I would guess that the conversation may have gone something like this:

"KHAQQ calling Itasca.  We heard your signals on 7500 kcs but unable to get a minimim."

"Itasca to KHAQQ.  Let's try something else.  We'll transmit on 400 kcs.  Tune your receiver to that frequency and see if you can get a minimum."

"KHAQQ calling Itasca.  Okay, that worked.  The bearing indicates that you are north of us.  Proceeding on heading of 337 degrees true."

Now I have a question for you.  Did you really think that Pickett's Charge had any chance of succeeding?

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:47:42 EST
From:         Bob Sherman 
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Dave Kelly wrote:

>...  A similar
> accident occurred near JFK when a foreign airliner notified the approach
> controllers;  "We're running out of fuel, sir" This was to convey to the
> controllers that their fuel state was critical. The controller gave them
> a "New York Priority Handling" vector (15 miles from the marker, instead
> of the usual 16) acknowledging the fuel problem in the form of a query
> "Is that okay with your fuel problem?"  "I guess so" was the reply

I'm not sure the above quotes are exact, but I do know that the controller replied to the first call of low fuel with, "Are you declaring an emergency?"  They said, "No".   At that time there was still enough fuel for an approach.  Some believe atc gave them an ultimatum causing them to back down, a sort of either its serious or it isn't.  They did not want to say the dreaded words that would result in an investigation of their poor fuel mgmt. (staying in a holding pattern well beyond the 'fuel deadline") and probable discipline.

What would AE have accomplished by declaring an emergency? I think all parties were trying their best with what they had, and what they did NOT know about each others equip. and capabilities. RC 941
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:08:08 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Bob Sherman wrote:

> What would AE have accomplished by declaring a (fuel) emergency?

I think the answer to that one is obvious: she should have known that a bunch of people 60 years later would have been working feverishly to solve the mystery. She should have said, "We have 8.2 gallons of fuel left, our current fuel burn is 43 gph, it 43 minutes past the hour, we are heading south on the line and have been doing so for the past 18 minutes; we are at 1000 feet just under the cloud cover; Fred estimates winds here to be 340 at 17; skip doesn't appear to be a problem with our radio transmissions today, and, by the way, I had new Biltrite Corporation Cat's Paw heels fit onto my shoes before I left". (My apologies: all of this sort of falls into the same category as Ric's seaman with his secret pair of woman's shoes and prized sextant.)

So, in short, what I meant to say was.... Although the subject of what would have happened had she declared an emergency is generally interesting as a discussion, it doesn't help us much to solve the real mystery here. No matter how much you might wish for it, we probably have all we're going to get in radio logs. The rest is idle chat and pointless "what ifs".

The purpose of a "what if" argument is really to try to generate new approaches and directions that might uncover new evidence. Discussing what might have happened if she had declared a fuel emergency doesn't really help in that regard.

Thomas Van Hare
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:14:06 EST
From:         Dave Kelly
Subject:      Re: Pan Am HF/DF

They are called NDB Approaches. As for the "Curved"  aspect of a non-precision approach, the NDB approach is flown in two ways; First, you correct for wind with the ADF needle deflection to compensate or second, you fly away from or towards the NDB on the final approach course heading, let the needle drift, then turn towards the needle and fly a heading that puts the needle opposite of that drift, then turn back to the approach course and see if the needle is straight up. The latter is the way I've flown NDB approaches, and it works well. The former never seems to work because of variable winds as you descend to the MDA, plus your DG must be deadly accurate (a rarity in the planes I've flown)  This is the only "curve" that is apparent during an NDB approach..

******************************************************************

From Ric

Where I come from NDB approaches are published approaches with set procedures and are generally, if not exclusively, flown with an Automatic Direction Finder (ADF).  I can't see much relevance to anything Earhart didn't get a chance to do in the middle of the Pacific 62 years ago.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:20:29 EST
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Re: Pan Am HF/DF

I'm not really up on this ADF navigation, but would like to make a comment. When I was using ADF to navigate, which was really rare,  I would just put the needle on the nose and Home in on the station.  If I didn't correct for wind (before I learned how to) I would approach the station in a long curving approach and if the wind was strong enough, I would end up approaching from down wind the last mile or two.  Mostly I just did it to listen to the music!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:05:49 EST
From:         Dave Kelly
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

The airline accident was reported in Flying's "Aftermath" column. Air/Ground transcripts are provided, and did include that exchange early in the conversation, but before the first failed approach (along with the Captain's frantic plea, shouted in Spanish to the copilot,  to declare an emergency! The copilot did not express the phrase to the controller, but merely repeated  "We're running out of fuel, sir" Approach had their hands full with other traffic, and the need for the copilot to relate the proper terminology was emphasized by the controller. In the end, the blame was primarily confined to the crew. AE would have benefitted from the same phrase,  because that is what "turns the screws" of rescue efforts. The fuel state she indicated was not an emergency fuel state, just as Itasca was not concerned with the figures. The declaring of an emergency would instantly perk the ears of all stations, and a more concerted effort to determine her position would be warranted. These days, specific frequencies (121.5 and 243.0) are "guarded" by towers, flight service stations, ARTCCs, and the RCC at Scott AFB, IL to aid in responding to broadcasts from distressed aircraft quickly.  I'm not sure if the same system was utilized in the days of HF radios, though there is an HF "Guard" frequency, but it couldn't have hurt to have some triangulation provided.

***************************************************************
From Ric

A better familiarity with the facts of the case might enable you to make a more reasonable statement.

There were no other stations within receiving range whose ears might be perked by a declared emergency and the only rescue screws there were to be turned were aboard Itasca.  All of the many official reports which describe the events of that morning confirm that Earhart had the rapt attention and gravest concern of the men aboard that ship throughout her approach.  The communication problems became apparent early on and the Itasca's captain was painfully aware that the most famous flight of America's favorite lady pilot was going to Hell in handbasket on his watch.  The Coast Guard seems to have been more in a panic than AE was.

The international emergency frequency at that time was 500 kcs which was guarded by all ships.  Earhart could transmit on that frequency, although without a trailing wire antenna the range would be very limited.  There is no evidence that she tried.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:10:22 EST
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Re: Nauru

I wonder if a person on a moving ship can really hear an airplane go over at ten thousand feet.  I have a 22 ft cruiser on the lake.  This lake is also home to a few Ultra lights on pontoons.  When I am moving, even at slow speed, I can't hear those loud engines until they are right on top of me.  There is too much wind noise in my ears.  Maybe on a big ship you can.  Comments?

*****************************************************************
From Ric

You make a good point.  I think it would make a lot of difference where you were on the ship.  Some places are really noisy and windy.  Others aren't.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:24:24 EST
From:         David Hall
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

I have a question in regards to the last comment by Tom Van Hare, He stated a message that AE should have used when she was attempting to contact the ship and find the island. I was wonder, not being old enough to have been around back then. Was the professionalism of any pilot or should I say training, not just AE, not that good enough to come up with a complete status report as suggested by Tom. My father was a pilot in the very early days of aviation and he always descibed flying back then as of "seat of pants".
*****************************************************************
From Ric

In Earhart's time, just as today, there were specific examinations which had to be passed in order for a pilot to obtain licenses and exercise privileges. The Bureau of Air Commerce (forerunner of the CAA/FAA) required Earhart to have an Instrument Rating and a Radio Navigation Rating (which no longer exists) before she was allowed to attempt her world flight.  She passed the Instrument Rating flight test (just barely) but begged off on the Radio Navigation ride, saying that the extra flight time would force her to overhaul her engines at an inconvenient place on her world flight.  The BAC bought the excuse and AE never took the test.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:29:52 EST
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Time Zones 101

Daryll wrote:

>If we take Howland and move it to New York where it is 9:00 p.m. and
>move Sydney to L.A. it should be 6:00 p.m. right???

Ric:  It will take a very, very BIG ship to move those islands that far!

LTMinnow,
Dave Bush
#2200
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:31:50 EST
From:         Suzanne
Subject:      Skip it

Please, Please enough with the Skip!

Best regards,
Suzanne T. 2184
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:35:24 EST
From:         Bob Lee
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

To: Ric

Thanks for the reply

Actually Pickett was an idiot, he should never have been put in command.

Regards
***************************************************************
From Ric

And you're an awfully good sport.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:42:49 EST
From:         Chuck
Subject:      Wreck Photo hoax?

RIC----has it occurred to you that the wreck "photo" could be a composite constructed as a cruel hoax with PHOTOSHOP by a "talented" techie having access to many wreck photos??????????????????????  You fill in the blanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Yes, that occurred to us.  But if it's a hoax it wasn't done in PHOTOSHOP. The Wreck Photo was kicking around long before digital mischief was available. Jeff Glickman at Photek noticed a couple of features which could possibly be traces of an older, cruder type of illusion, but there's no way to be sure. The answer to your question is, yes, it is possible that the photo is a hoax. If so, it's a very clever one.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:44:20 EST
From:         Dave Kelly
Subject:      Re: Pan Am HF/DF

Yes, I doubt she was flying an NDB into Howland.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:49:14 EST
From:         Skeet Gifford
Subject:      Re: Nauru

I have never heard an L-10E in flight, but keep in mind that it has collector rings which are inherently quieter (God knows!) than short stacks.

Also, the rpm would have probably been 1600 (from Paul Mantz's cruise tables), well below, and much quieter than, the rated rpm of 2200.

Skeet Gifford 1371C

****************************************************************
From Ric

Think of a throttled back T-6 times two.  Not especially loud, but a very low frequency rumble. That kind of sound can sometimes carry really well.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:43:12 EST
From:         Scott Zaden
Subject:      Lae runway & maps

Thank-you for the information. Thought I would send you at little more about the runway at Lae - on July 1 - as I believe it is an area in which very little history has been generated. From this you will be able to surmise the kind of detail available about the flight.

"There is essentially nothing here except for village huts and what appears to be a seaplane facility connected to a newly constructed dirt airfield. Well, dirt isn't exactly correct. The runway is covered with what appears to be crushed coral, shells, and some kind of a sand and dirt mix. Very hard pack, but having a ruggedness about it. The parking area is constructed of concrete squares, approximately three by three feet, and about six inches thick. Think this airport facility is probably good for older planes with larger wheels and light cargo."

I was not so much concerned with the British Admiralty Chart you mentioned as I was with the recent geo-tracking maps. My inquiry concerns attempting to making a final determination as to who would know the answer to these questions.

I wanted to confirm if these maps are public, proprietary or for sale. I also wanted to confirm when your next trip to the Phoenix Islands would be and if you will have fax capability while in the field. I may be wrong, but I am assuming this is all information available to the public. Any information you can supply would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,

Scott Zaden
****************************************************************
From Ric

Excuse me Scott, but it sounds like you want to play games.

I asked you to provide the source for this alleged information about the runway at Lae on July 1, 1937.  Instead, you provide more alleged information from which I am supposed to "surmise the kind of detail available about the flight."  It sounds like you would like us to think that you have some wonderful, previously-unknown source of information.  Well, I'm calling your bluff.

The detail provided in your paragraph does not describe the runway as it appears in the film of AE's final takeoff.  The surface is clearly turf, not "crushed coral, shells, and some kind of a sand and dirt mix."  You claim that the report comes from an "a U.S. military intelligence operative" whom you admit was not actually at Lae.  And yet the paragraph above is clearly written as if the person is physically present at Lae ("There is essentially nothing here except for...).  No mention is made of the large Guinea Airways hangar, the airline's considerable maintenance facility, or the extensive traffic in support of gold mining operations.  I think your "intelligence report" is a fraud.  If it's not, you should be able to document where it came from.  Put up or shut up.

And what, pray tell, is a "geo-tracking" map?  The only maps we have are the old ones we have found in archives and the current ones that are available through map vendors.  We've drawn some maps ourselves showing where we have found various things on the island and we've sent such a map to all of our members with last May's issue of TIGHAR Tracks.

We're not interested in playing games.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:18:47 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Wreck Photo a hoax?

Ric wrote:

>The answer to your question is, yes, it is possible that the
>photo is a hoax. If so, it's a very clever one.

Most early (pre-1980s) doctored photos are fairly obvious, especially if the forger need to provide any detail in the finished product.  There are so many variables to deal with -- lighting angles/intensity, seasonal adjustments, subject-to-background angles, compatible focus, etc. etc.  Just check out some of the Cold War stuff from the USSR and China -- these guys had unlimited resources to do their jobs and usually came up with an obviously inferior product.  You know the ones -- where heads are transposed onto different bodies, American "spies' captured in Southeast Asia wearing cold weather gear etc.

Photos are always suspect until you can view the actual negative, that is where the rubber meets the road.  But with today's digital stuff . . .all bets are off.  It's just too damned good.  The new technology has removed some of the mystery out of life.  Yeah, it's fun to play with but with today's more skeptical world doctored photos -- i.e., "Forest Gump" -- anything is possible.

(In case our readers didn't know, a lot of the "Forest Gump" scenes were done digitally.  "Apollo 13" -- same thing, all of the shots of the Saturn V rocket (and others) were done on computer.  Director Ron Howard even bragged that they didn't use a single frame of stock NASA footage for the film.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:14:52 EST
From:         Jack J.
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Hi Tom,

You covered everything but the bones.

Regards,
Jack, #2157
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:37:06 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re Signal Strength

Jack J. wrote:

> You covered everything but the bones.

Gosh, she should have done that, you're right. Probably an oversight.... She never was too good on the radio, you know.

At the risk of sounding too morbid (my earlier joke has gone a bit too far perhaps), I'll add that if she had mentioned the bones for us, it wouldn't have probably been on the radio, but more likely in the letter for GP to open if she didn't return. It might have gone something like this: "If I perish in the attempt, look for my bones in the shade of the kanawa trees not far from Kanawa Point. The crabs will guide you."

My apologies to the ghosts of history,

Thomas Van Hare
*****************************************************************

From Ric

Never fails.  As soon as somebody gets a TIGHAR member number they turn into a smartass.  (I know. I know.  Who am I to talk?)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:18:22 EST
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Forum-isms

> you covered everything but the bones.

And thus, a new Forum expression (Forum-ism) is born.

"Love to Mother", "Spin my prop", "Go suck scaevola..." I'd say we've "covered everything but the bones."

  LTM,
  Russ
*****************************************************************

From Ric

Who said "Go suck scaevola"?  I must have been out of town.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:24:42 EST
From:         Jack
Subject:      Re: Re Signal Strength

Keep it coming. Thats great. We need a little trenchant wit.. Ric will not look kindly on me for encouraging you.

Regards,
Jack #2157
****************************************************************

From Ric

Au contraire.  I encourage wit.  I welcome wit. I delight in wit.  I have only one rule about wit.  I will not engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:36:22 EST
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Re: Lae runway & maps

>I think your "intelligence report" is a fraud.  If it's not, you should be
>able to document where it came from.  Put up or shut up.

Ata boy Ric, lock and load, time for frontal assault.

Roger Kelley, #2112
****************************************************************

From Ric

As we used to say in my old outfit "Garry Owen!"
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:48:52 EST
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Eugene Pallette

Just wanted to give you an update on a research project I have been doing.  I am still trying to find the connection between Eugene Pallette and Fred Noonan.  I haven't been able to find out very much because of time constraints, but this is a start.  Maybe someone else on the Forum can help out in the Oregon and Los Angeles area.

 I have found and talked to three distant cousins of Eugene. Surprisingly one of them, Drew Pallette is an archeologist in southern California.  He read the article in "Discovering Archaeology" by Tom King.  He says he met Tom several years ago and is interested in the Earhart mystery.  He is arranging for me to talk to his brother who is suppose to have more information.

 A distant cousin in May, Texas said his parents spoke of Eugene often. He also told me that Eugene had two daughters and that both of them lived in the Los Angeles area.  He thinks one of them never married and goes by the name Pallette.  She was in the movies also and he thinks she was with MGM.

 The May, Texas cousin also had a cousin in Oklahoma City who went to Los Angeles and met the daughters at some point. His name is Raymond Pallette.  I could not find him in the directory however.

 I have sent E-mail to several more people with the last name of Pallette, asking for general information.  There has been no response yet.

 Then, thanks to Ron Dawson who sent a large article to me in the mail, I have found out that Eugene Pallette owned a very large ranch in the north eastern corner of Oregon.  The towns mentioned in the article as being very close to the ranch are Enterprise and Imnaha which are in Wallowa county.  Thanks Ron!

 The goal of this research is to find out if anymore letters exist that were written by Fred on the world flight and sent to Eugene Pallette. Also, what is the connection between Fred and Eugene?  And last, how did letters written by Fred Noonan on the world flight and addressed to Eugene Pallette end up in this small California town.

 I wish I knew of a faster way to track down the daughters in Los Angeles.  Anyone want to help?

****************************************************************
From Ric

Eugene Pallette, for those of you who may not be old movie buffs, was a popular character actor throughout the 1930s.  Short, very round, and with a gruff, raspy voice, he is best remembered today for his role as Friar Tuck in the Errol Flynn "Adventures of Robin Hood."  Pallette was, by all accounts, a bit odd.  The large ranch in Oregon mentioned above was, in fact, a huge self-sufficient compound where Pallette planned to hold out when the world economy collapsed and society descended into chaos.  Perhaps significantly (and perhaps not) Pallette bought the place in August of 1937 on the heels of the Earhart/Noonan disappearance.

Here's some background for anyone who may have missed the earlier episodes of this rather bizarre footnote to the Earhart saga.

Some time ago, Don was able to obtain a copy of a previously unknown letter written by Fred Noonan on June 9, 1937 from Dakar, Senegal, French West Africa (he and AE had just completed their flight across the South Atlanitic from Brazil).  The letter, which was sent "par avion", is addressed to:

"Mr. Eugene Pallette
Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel
Hollywood, California
Etas-Unis"

The letter reads:

Dear Gene,

Having trouble sending messages such as I promised you but I am doing the best I can.  Facilities are not always available, and therefore I am sending one message when possible, naming stop made since the previous message.  Tried to get one off last night but some trouble developed at the cable station.  As I had sent the cablegram to the cable office by messenger I have not yet ascertained the cause of the delay in transmission - but will do so later to-day.

So far we have had a pleasant and uneventful trip. With few exceptions the weather has been splendid.  The flight from Natal, Brazil to Africa produced the worst weather we have experienced - heavy rain and dense cloud formations necessitated blind flying for ten of the thirteen hours we were in flight.  To add to our woes the African coast was enveloped in thick haze, rendering objects invisible at distances over a half mile, when we made landfall.

And our radio was out of order - it would be in such a jam.  However - with our usual good luck, if not good guidance, we barged through okay.  We anticipate taking-off for Niamey, French Niger, Central Africa, to-morrow morning, then to Kharthoum, Egypt, and Aden, Arabia.

With kindest personal regards, and looking forward to a highball together in the not too distant future - I am

Sincerely
Fred Noonan

This is not a casual note to a friend.  Why had Fred promised to send Pallette regular and expensive telegram messages about how the flight was going?  The messages are clearly important because Fred spends the first half of the letter explaining why he hasn't been able to send them.  An air mail letter from Africa to California in 1937 is also expensive.  What's going on here? Earhart had an exclusive deal with the Herald Tribune for the story of the flight, but Pallette was not a journalist and no accounts of the flight seem to have appeared in the press based upon such communications with the navigator.  Pallette's connection was with Hollywood.  Were he and Fred trying to peddle the rights to a film about Fred's flight around the world with Amelia?  Did AE know anything this?  Perhaps more to the point, did GP know about it? Fascinating stuff.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:51:04 EST
From:         Chuck
Subject:      AE NEWSGROUPS?

does anyone know of any newsgroups on the web dedicated to: A. E., mid 1930s radio, or southwest pacific islands prior to WWII?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:59:58 EST
From:         Chuck
Subject:      Re: Wreck photo hoax?

specifically, what were the "features" that Jeff noticed in the wreck photo?

****************************************************************

From Ric

I was afraid someone would ask that.  Not being a forensic imaging expert I'm not competent to explain the particulars. As I understood it at the time, Jeff saw some possible inconsistencies in shading and shadows in some parts of the photo.  It was all pretty subtle stuff and he was not at all sure that what he was seeing was an indication of a hoax.  That's about the best I can do.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:21:36 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Forum-isms

Ric asked:
>
> Who said "Go suck scaevola"?  I must have been out of town.

Such language!  I thought this was a family forum.

LTM, who avoids double entendres
Dennis McGee #0149
*****************************************************************

From Ric

Hey, in a country where the Congress publishes better pornography than Larry Flynt I think we're pretty safe with "go suck scaevola."
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:31:20 EST
From:         Natko Katicic
Subject:      Pensacola Box

The caption of the third picture in the 1/13/99 Research Bulletin reads:

>The only markings on the box, which
>features dovetailed corners, are the
>number 116 handwritten on the
>front.

Couldn't  the  >II6<  [sic] be an inverted >9II<          ???

Love To Mother
Natko.

****************************************************************

From Ric

I don't think so, based upon the appearance of the 6.  It looks to me like the box was stored standing with the handle up, perhaps with a bunch of other similar boxes, and the 116 was written there so that the box could be selected from among the others.  Just a theory, but if it's correct it means that this box was once part of a whole batch of boxes (such as one might have in a school for navigators).
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:40:50 EST
From:         Bill Carter
Subject:      Re: Eugene Pallette

Though not yet an official member of TIGHAR, I am interested in assisting in the AE search.  I live in Boise, Idaho.  The area in Northeastern Oregon where the Pallette Ranch is located is about a 2 and 1/2 hour drive from here.  I would be happy to pay a visit to the place, take a few pictures, and ask some questions but does anyone know if the ranch is still owned by the Pallette family?  Also understand that we have our share of folks who live in those areas for one simple reason - they want to be left alone. Lastly, if the  world economy is going to collapse, I may just stay up at the ranch though I doubt my disappearance would generate as much interest as AE's.  Hell, my wife would celebrate for a month before a real search would begin.

Bill Carter, attorney, Boise, Idaho.
******************************************************************
From Ric

Well Bill, you show real promise as a TIGHAR member.  I can't say that a visit to the Pallette Ranch is likely to result in a breakthrough in the search for Earhart but as Fats Waller used to say " One never knows, do one?"

Anybody know if Pallette's hideout is still in the family?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:37:40 EST
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: Forum-isms

Then again, Ric, I'm beginning to think that Congress doesn't know Flynt from Scaevola, anyway!

Sorry,
Gene Dangelo #2211 :)

*****************************************************************

From Ric

We've run this forum for over a year now and have somehow managed to say almost nothing about The National Disgrace (however you may care to define that).  I'm doing my best to keep it that way, but it's tough.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:41:18 EST
From:         Bill Carter
Subject:      Re: Eugene Pallette

I agree that we probably won't find the plane, bones, or a match for the shoe sole at the Pallette Ranch but if it's still owned by the Pallettes and there were other letters. . . . hmm.  I'm originally from Cleveland but I've found that on rural ranches which have no access to trash haul service (not unusual today and especially not uncommon in the west in the 30's and 40's) and the like, your disposal options are limited.  One either keeps everything (which could be great for us), reuses it somewhere else (i.e. Noonan letters wall papering the kitchen), or burns it (not so good for us). If no one in the forum knows about the current ownership status of the ranch, there are ways of finding out.

*****************************************************************

From Ric

It's worth a shot. The ranch may be remote but it's a lot closer than Fiji and Niku.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:45:20 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Electra Model update

Last August we announced that TIGHAR had made arrangements with a company that produces molded-resin scale models of classic aircraft for the creation of a 1/48th scale model of the Lockheed Model 10E Special in which Earhart disappeared.  (A 1/48th scale rendition of the Electra results in an airplane with a roughly 14 inch wingspan.)

The company had been selling a model which they marketed as a replica of Earhart's aircraft, but once we had examined an example it became apparent that many corrections would be needed before we could offer it to our members and to the public.  TIGHAR will only endorse a model that is as correct as possible to NR16020 as it was at the time it disappeared.

We prepared detailed specifications and sent them to the model manufacturer. At the same time we began accepting orders for two versions of the new models which will be available only through TIGHAR.

Limited Edition

This molded resin model of Earhart's Electra will come with a polished black acrylic stand with the TIGHAR logo and the inscription "Amelia Earhart's Lockheed 10E Special NR16020".   The price is $395.  A $100 deposit will hold a place in the production run.  The balance will be payable immediately prior to delivery.

Collector's Edition

This version of the model will be identical to the Limited Edition except that it will carry a constructors number (c/n) modeled on Lockheed's original system.  Earhart's airplane was c/n 1055 (the 55th Model 10 built). Collector's Edition Electras will begin with c/n 1055-1.  Each Collector's Edition aircraft will come on an individualized stand which will include the TIGHAR logo, the contributor's name and the model's c/n.  These aircraft will be awarded in appreciation of a $1,000 contribution toward the Earhart Project. A deposit of $250 holds the next available c/n number with the balance payable immediately prior to delivery.

To date we have twelve orders for aircraft, five of which are Collector's Edition models (the next available is c/n 1055-6).  Those orders turned out to be very useful when (no surprise to us) the manufacturer recently called to say that in order to meet our exacting specifications, it would be necessary to create an entirely new mold.  The existing orders were convincing evidence that there is a sufficient market for a truly accurate model of NR16020 to justify the expense of starting from scratch.

The manufacturer is now creating a master model from which the new mold will be made.  The unpainted master model will be sent here to TIGHAR for approval before the mold is cast.  When it arrives (estimate 4 weeks) we'll note any needed changes, photograph it, and return it.  We'll mount the photos of the prototype on the TIGHAR website.  Once the prototype is approved, delivery of the finished models should follow in 4 to 6 weeks.

Like finding Amelia, the process of producing a really topnotch model of her airplane is proving to be quite a task, but surely worth the effort.  We'll soon be mounting an ad on the TIGHAR website and, of course, we're hoping for a good response.  If you would like to reserve your spot on the assembly line with a deposit for either a Limited or Collector's Edition aircraft just let us know.  You can either send me an email saying the check is in the mail (as you know, I'm terminally gullible), or phone or fax with your Visa or Mastercard info.  The phone number is (302) 994-4410.  Fax is (302) 994-7945.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:49:55 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Lae runway & maps

Ouch, stretch my memory, but wasn't Garry Owen the marching song for the 7th Cav?

LTM
jon
****************************************************************

From Ric

Yup, and later adopted by the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile).
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:58:44 EST
From:         Tom Klute
Subject:      Re: Wreck photo hoax?

My name is Tom Klute and I ran the photography section at the Office of the Medical Examiner of Cook County in Chicago from 1980 to 1985.  I've seen the photo and I don't think there's any monkey business going on here at all.

How do I join ? Do you take credit cards ?  By the way, Ric, I think you're a bloody prince for being so patient and really humorous in your responses.

KLUTE

*****************************************************************

From Ric

You betcha we take credit cards.  Visa or Mastercard.  Call on the phone (302) 994-4410 or send a fax (302) 994-7945.  Fix ya right up.  Member number and everything.

I'd like to hear more about your impressions of the photo as a photo.

Love to mother,
The Bloody Prince
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:05:46 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Aviation disaster

This just in:

The largest single accident in civil aviation history occurred this morning when a Cessna 152 crashed into a cemetery just outside Wilmington, Delaware. Rescue workers have so far recovered 472 bodies and fear there are more to come.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:56:33 EST
From:         Ted Valenti
Subject:      Responsibility

I am new to the forum.  From what I have read so far it appears to me that the primary reason AE and FN did not make contact with the Itaska, and therefore land where they were supposed to, was because they were not well versed enough in how to operate the radio equipment on board, and the equipment was not totally functional.  Is this correct?  I don't understand why AE was allowed to travel around the world without having adequate instruction on the radio, or why she herself didn't understand the importance of that. Also, if my second premise is correct, why didn't someone take the responsibility to see that the equipment was functioning properly?  In addition, why did AE change the frequency when she was trying to communicate with the Itaska?

Thanks.
Ted Valenti
*****************************************************************

You raise some interesting questions Ted.  It does appear that a lack of familiarity with the limitations of their radio equipment was a factor - perhaps a major factor - in the flight's failure to reach its intended destination.  It is also apparent that a mechanical failure of some kind - either in a relay or in an antenna - prevented them from receiving voice transmissions.

A case can be made for the mechanical failure having occurred during or at some time following the takeoff from Lae, in which case the crew can only be faulted for not detecting the problem and aborting the mission while it was still possible to return to Lae.

The larger question you raise is one of responsibility.  Whose job was it to make sure that Earhart was competent to make the trip?  She was certainly a highly experienced and successful long distance aviator - indeed, one of the most famous of her day.  There were licensing requirements set, and in one case waived, by the federal government.  (Have you ever asked for a waiver, or an easement, or an exception to some government regulation?) Ultimately, though, it was AE and Fred who decided that the Lae/Howland flight was a reasonable undertaking.  If the voice reception problem was the result of an unforeseen and difficult to detect mechanical failure that happened enroute, then Earhart and Noonan died because they did not have sufficient skill to overcome their bad luck.  That's a balancing act that all pilots face from time to time.  There's an old saying - "An explemplary pilot's exemplary judgement keeps him out of situations requiring his exemplary skill." I suspect that the other airplane drivers on the forum will agree with me that final responsibility for the safety of any flight has to reside with the person in the left seat.  After all, the pilot is always the first one on the scene of the accident.

Earhart changed frequencies because she wasn't getting any response on the one she had been using.  I've done the same thing countless times. In her case, she had been transmitting on 3105 Kcs which was regarded as her "nighttime" frequency because it propagates best during the hours of darkness.  She switched to 6210 kcs, her "daytime" frequency at 08:43 local time when the sun was well up.

I think that it's easy, from a 1999 perspective, to see the Lae/Howland flight as wildly risky, perhaps even irresponsible and almost suicidal- but I don't think it was.  I think that Earhart and Noonan both realized that there was not a lot of margin for error if the flight was going to turn out as planned, but I think that they also knew that the chances of being able to end the flight on land were quite good.  I think that they thought of themsleves as lucky, and not without reason given the narrow scrapes and close calls they had successfully negotiated thus far.  And I don't think that their luck completely ran out on July 2nd.  I think the well was finally dry on July 9th when the Navy search planes departed Gardner Island.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:20:11 EST
From:         Mark Cameron
Subject:      Fuel Consumption

I have a thought on AE's fuel predicament but I need some info, please. You mentioned in the forum a fuel profile(?) given to her by another member of her team for the hop to Howland, would you please repeat it? And would you outline TIGHAR's conclusions on her fuel consumption and the facts that support that conclusion? This is probably info that you have given before and it may not lead to anything significant but I have a nagging thought that I can't shake, I just don't want to propose anything until I have the details.

Thanks and LTM
Mark Cameron

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Earhart left Lae with 1,100 U.S. gallons of fuel.

The power management profile worked out for her by Lockheed's Kelly Johnson was:

TIME       ALT.               MAN. PRESSURE        RPM          GAL./HR.
1 hour     0-8,000 ft.       28.5 inches           2,050          100
3 hours    8,000 ft.         28 inches             1,900           60
3 hours    8,000 ft.         26.5 inches           1,800           51
3 hours    8,000 ft.         25 inches             1,700           43
Rest      10,000 ft.         24 inches             1,600           38

That should yield a maximum of 24 hours and 9 minutes of endurance.

At the time of her last transmission heard by Itasca at 08:43 local time, July 2nd, she had been in the air for 20 hours and 13 minutes.  She could have had as much as 3 hours and 56 minutes of flight time remaining.  Of course, that assumes that she stayed at 10,000 feet which we know she did not.  She descended to 1,000 feet at some time prior to 07:42 (19 hours and 12 minutes into the flight) and we have no information about what power setting she used from then on except to say that it seems reasonable to assume that she was not being profligate.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:34:06 EST
From:         Bill Carter
Subject:      Re: Aviation disaster

Boy, it's sure amazing how many people they can fit in one of those small Cessnas these days.  Of course, with a Cessna that size, the debris field must be acres and acres.  I sure hope none of the graves were disturbed. Ric, you missed your calling.  TIGHAR should be raising funds on the comedy circuit.

*****************************************************************

From Ric

I thought this WAS the comedy circuit.  All humor is disguised tragedy.  Don't laugh.  Throw money.

****************************************************************
From Dennis McGee

I'll bet this is a former ethnic joke that's been PC'd for the forum.  Right?

LTM
Dennis McGee #0149

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Right.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:37:54 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Lae runway & maps

I thought Garry Owen was the announcer on "Laugh In" -- the guy who kept his hand to his ear when he talked.  I'm glad you cleared that up for me . . .

LTM, who is always humming
Dennis McGee #0149

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Is nothing sacred?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:01:58 EST
From:         Clyde Miller
Subject:      Re: Garry Owen

Just a little more off topic information.

The reason that "Garry Owen" was adopted as the regimental song, as the story goes - one of the Irish "melting pot" troopers of the 7th Cavalry, under the influence of "spirits", was singing the song. By chance Custer heard the melody, liked the cadence, and soon began to hum the tune himself. The tune has a lively beat, that accentuates the cadence of marching horses. Soon the tune was played so often that the 7th Cavalry became known as the "Garry Owen" Regiment. "Garry Owen" eventually became the official song of the 1st Cavalry Division at Fort Hood, Texas in 1981.

P.S.

Does this mean we will soon be "hearing"  Garry Owen as the new official TIGHAR theme song?

Clyde
*****************************************************************

From Ric

We could do worse (and probably will), but a caution and a correction are in order.

The story of the song's adoption by Custer is probably apochryphal and distressingly resembles a scene from a really terrible Errol Flynn movie about Custer called "They Died With Their Boots On" (in which Gene Pallette did not play Crazy Horse).

The tune, which is indeed an old traditional Irish ditty, matches the cadence of cantering, not marching, horses.  The equine walk, or march,is a four-beat gait.  The canter, like the song, is three-beat (ONE-two-three, ONE-two-three, ONE-two-three, etc.)

And while it may have been officially adopted by the 1st Cavalry in 1981, we were cantering to it in the mounted troop at Ft. Hood in 1972. (Yes, we had a horse cavalry unit at Hood for PR purposes.  What a hoot. )

And to get terminally off topic, here are the excruciatingly obscure and almost never sung words to Garry Owen:

Let Bacchus' sons be not dismayed,
And join with me each jovial blade.
Come booze and sing and lend your aid,
and help me with the chorus.

Instead of wine we'll drink down ale,
And take the reck'ning on the nail.
No man for debt shall go to jail
From Garry Owen in glory.

I have no idea what any of that means.

Love to Autie,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:59:40 EST
From:         Clyde Miller
Subject:      Re: Garry Owen

Which brings us to the "Really" off topic subject of just what did happen to the members of "E" Company...The grey horse company when they were last seen riding off into a ravine.  Another mystery!

Clyde

****************************************************************

From Ric

Which, alas, will have to await the attention of the E Company Search Forum.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:19:27 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      On the website

By the way, the Sextant Box Mystery research bulletin is now up on the TIGHAR website with photos of various sextant boxes for your amusement and amazement.

We've also mounted the ad for the Electra models along with the cool three views (actually there are four views) of the airplane which were sent to TIGHAR members as a pull-out with the recent issue of TIGHAR Tracks and now surely grace refrigerator doors worldwide, held in place by Love to Mother magnets.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:19:25 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Sucking Scaevola

I was, I think, the originator of "go suck scaevola."  Somebody had asked if AE and FN might have gotten enough fluid to survive by sucking scaevola.  I said I doubted it, but put the question to Bio-daughter Rachel, who replied that scaevola was actually probably a pretty good source of moisture.  She suggested first-hand experimentation, of course, so...

****************************************************************

From Ric

Looking back over some of my early correspondence with Harry Maude, he wrote in 1991:

"What baffles me is why Amelia Earhart and her companion should have died. There was plenty of food on the atoll, any amount of fish on the reef and in the lagoon, and coconuts to drink or eat on the ground or on the trees.  The succulent leaves of the boi (Portulaca) make a very nutritious vegetable salad and can be sucked for moisture."

Apparently there is more to suck than just scaevola.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:29:24 EST
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Re: Eugene Pallette

I still have the article that Ron Dawson sent to me.  It describes the ranch to a "T".  I suppose it is possible there might still be something up that canyon.  It would be nice.  Just remember,  what we are looking for is a connection to Fred Noonan.  Being from that area, you might be able to track down who bought the ranch from Eugene and if there are any children.  I know of two daughter in Los Angeles, but that's about all I know at this point.  I certainly could use the help!
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:44:31 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Fuel Consumption

Ric, the note from Mark Cameron regarding the fuel profile for the Lae-Howland leg leads me to believe that perhaps Mark does not recognize the name of Kelly Johnson. I wonder if there are others here who are equally unaware of this Johnson fella.

In order to establish Mr. Johnson's bonafides, perhaps a brief listing of his accomplishments would be in order?

Tom #2179
****************************************************************

From Ric

I'm certainly not up to the task of writing Kelly Johnson's resume, but for starters:

In 1934, before he even officially went to work for Lockheed, Clarence L. "Kelly" Johnson designed key aspects of their new Model 10 design .  (That twin tail was his idea.)

In early 1937 he flew with Earhart in NR16020 to develop the power management profiles which would result in the best range for her aircraft.

He went on to not only oversee the evolution of the basic Model 10 design into the Hudson, Lodestar, Ventura, Harpoon, and ultimately the Constellation, but also design such aircraft as the P-38 Lightning, the P-80 Shooting Star, F-104 Starfighter, U-2, and SR-71 Blackbird (among others).

Kelly Johnson was arguably the single greatest aeronautical engineer in history (with the possible exception of a couple of brothers from Ohio).

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:53:18 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Garry Owen/Garryowen

The title of the tune "Garryowen" is actually one word.

Ref: Touched by Fire by Louise Barnett.

Not that anyone gives a rats.

Marty 724C
*****************************************************************

From Ric

Actually, I sort of give a rats...   This is just the sort of mindless esoterica that I find irresistible (like the Earhart Project). Is "Touched by Fire" about Custer?  The lyrics of the song suggest that Garryowen might be a place.  I wonder if it is, by any chance, a town in Ireland? ( But I can't find it in an atlas.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:48:57 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Noonan/Pallette letter

This,  I believe, is the first time that I've seen the letter. It is interesting and it raises some questions for me.

1. Who wrote the script (story) for " Flight to Freedom"?  I could understand the propaganda value that was achieved in 1943, but I have always wondered who sat down and used their imagination to come up with the story line. The little things like someone comparing "Gull island" in the movie to Hull island in the Phoenix Group, one of those coincidences. It has been my belief that this movie  "Flight to Freedom " was the origin for all of the so called "conspiracy theories" that were to follow. Were there any "conspiracy theories" that pre-dated the movie?

 2. The letter was addressed as follows:
> to: "Mr. Eugene Pallette
>Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel
>Hollywood, California
>Etas-Unis"
 Any idea what Etas-Unis is ?

Fred wrote:

>The flight from Natal, Brazil to Africa produced the worst weather we
>have experienced - heavy rain and dense cloud formations necessitated
>blind flying for ten of the thirteen hours we were in flight. To add to
>our woes the African coast was enveloped in thick haze, rendering
>objects invisible at distances over a half mile, when we made landfall.

3. IFR conditions for 10 hrs out of 13 hrs. Where did Fred get his fixes? Dead reckoning?

>And our radio was out of order - it would be in such a jam. However -
>with our usual good luck, if not good guidance, we barged through okay.

4.  What does Fred mean "out of order", not working period ? Does he mean the communication radio or the DF? When he uses words like " it would be in such a jam" it seems to imply, working sometimes, sometimes not. Could this be a water (rain) related problem?

When the Forum was debating if Fred could understand Morse code or not, I was thinking, here was a man who worked for Pan Am as navigator, pioneering new routes, who thought about starting a navigator school, could he not see that navigation and radio were going to be combined one day? Having a radio license would have meant more job security for him.  It's like an aircraft mechanic only having an "A"  or a "P" rating, even though you could do the work in both areas, you always seemed to end up looking for an "A+P" to sign something off.

Daryll

*****************************************************************

From Ric

1. According to Mary Lovell's book "The Sound of Wings" (page 321):

"In the spring of 1942, RKO accepted a screenplay from scriptwriter Horace McCoy entitled "Stand by to Die." (footnote; McCoy wrote many other screenplays and also wrote the novel "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?")  He had written it after speaking to one of the amateur radio operators who claimed to have heard Amelia's radio signals after she had officially disappeared. Although essentially a piece of fiction, the story contained elements based on some of Amelia's experiences."

George Putnam had been trying unsuccessfully to promote a more factual screenplay he had written entitled "Lady With Wings: The Life Story of My Wife Amelia Earhart."  He accepted $7,500 for the rights for RKO to make the fictional film.  They changed the title to Flight for Freedom.  Propaganda, in an official government sense, had nothing to do with it. It was just Hollywood capitalizing on the country's patriotic and anti-Japanese mood.  The amateur radio operator Lovell refers to was Walter McMennamy who, along with a buddy named Karl Pearson, had claimed to receive distress calls from AE.  McMennamy later claimed that McCoy stole the "Stand By To Die" script from him.  In an audio tape made in the 1950s, McMennamy makes a whole series of loony claims about his involvement with the Earhart flight and how the Navy had tried to silence him.

The only conspiracy claims that pre-dated the movie were allegations by the Australian newspaper "Smith's Weekly" that the U.S. Navy had used Earhart's disappearance as an excuse to overfly the Marshall Islands.  No claim was made that Earhart was in on the plot.  About the time that "Flight for Freedom" came out,  M. L. Brittain, a Georgia Tech department head who had been aboard the Colorado during the 1937 search, suddenly remembered that he had gotten the feeling that Earhart was somehow in cahoots with the Navy.  His statements to the press seemed to lend credence to the film's fictional premise and Secret Agent Amelia was born.

2.  Etas-Unis was the name of the French Secret Communications Directorate, or it's just French for  "United States", I forget which.

3.  Ten hours of IFR was ten hours of holding a pre-calculated series of compass headings.  As you say - dead reckoning.  That was the way most long distance flights were done back then.  I've done it myself for only about three hours, IFR, in an airplane with no radios at all.  Let's call it an interesting experience.

4.  I think that when Fred says the radio was "out of order" he means that it wasn't working.  When he says "-it would be in such a jam" I think he's merely expressing Murphy's Law.

You're not alone in deciding that Fred knew morse code despite the evidence to the contrary.  There seem to be two ways of arriving at historical truth.  One way is to gather and assess the available evidence.  The other way is to just decide what it seems to you that the truth should be.  We kind of lean toward the first way.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:09:07 EST
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: Forum-isms

>Who said "Go suck scaevola"?  I must have been out of town.

  A few months ago there was a detailed exchange that covered everything but the bones relating to our favorite plant - including debate as to whether or not someone could extract moisture from it in order to survive (hence the above recommendation).

  You're all going to make me document this, aren't you?

  LTM,
  Russ

****************************************************************

From Ric

Actually, the phrase is not new.  Gaius Mucius Scaevola was a legendary Roman hero who lived circa 509 b.c. The suggestion (translated above from the Latin) was reportedly popular among those who sought his favor, but the precise meaning is not clear.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:20:38 EST
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Re: Garry Owen

Ric, you amaze me!  How do you lay your hand on this information so fast.  You had to have done research to know Custer's nick name.  I bet if I asked you what the note said that Curley took back to Benteen. . . you could quote that too.  You are amazing!

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Hate to disappoint you, but I'm not that amazing.

Let me guess.   "We must be on you but cannot see you."
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:32:09 EST
From:         Bill Carter
Subject:      Re: Eugene Pallette

Don - Be glad to render assistance.  I can visit the Wallowa county recorder's office and go from there.  If you are willing to fax the article referred to in your message, it may be of some use.  Call me directly at 208-395-5707 and I will give you my fax number.  Wallowa County is a secluded area.  You may have heard of Hell's Canyon which is situated there along the border with Idaho.  The area is very mountainous and picturesque.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:37:03 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Garry Owen/Garryowen

> Garryowen might be a place.  I wonder if it is, by any chance, a town in
> Ireland? ( But I can't find it in an atlas.)

Actually, Garryowen is a suburb of Limerick, Ireland. It is also known as "Owen's Garden".

Thomas Van Hare
*****************************************************************

From Ric

Well that took all of 20 minutes.  The Earhart Forum knows all, tells all. Thanks Tom.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:46:52 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Garry Owen/Garryowen

Here is the tune:
   http://ingeb.org/songs/letbacch.mid

Thomas Van Hare
**************************************************************

From Ric

Talk about amazing.

*****************************************************************
From Dennis McGee

As long we're off-topic . . . if Garry Owen is in fact Garryown, then it may also be pronounced with a "J" not a "G", in gerrymander. Wow, like way cool, dude!

LTM, who is not an etymologist
Dennis McGee #0149
****************************************************************
From Ric

I don't think so.  The sound of the name has been passed down much more than its origin.
*****************************************************************
From Gene Dangelo

Garry Owen was also the name of the announcer for Rowan and Martin's "Laugh-In." I wonder if he selected that name on purpose, due to its historical significance, or if it's just his real name by coincidence!

Very Interesting,
Gene Dangelo #2211
*****************************************************************

From Ric

Dennis McGee brought that up yesterday.  My recollection though is that he called himself "Gary Owens" but it was almost certainly a takeoff on the song title.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:06:42 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Garry Owen

Seriously:  The note read something to the effect:  "Come quickly, large number of Indians.  Bring the packs!"  In this case, "the packs" referred to the supplies on the mule train, which included a lot of Custer's ammo.

Not seriously:  Even lesser known was Benteen's reply: "Go suck scaevola, you idiot!"

***************************************************************

From Ric

Don Jordan will now provide the verbatim text of Custer's note to Captain Benteen.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:37:38 EST
From:         Ted Valenti
Subject:      Re: Sucking Scaevola

I would like this issue addressed.  Why couldn't they have survived if what Tom is saying is true?

Thanks.
Ted Valenti

****************************************************************
From Ric

They certainly could have, and probably did, survive for a time.  For exactly how long is a more difficult question.

There is plenty of food on Nikumaroro.  Water is the big problem.  There is no fresh water on the island (that would be accessible to a castaway) except what falls from the sky, and rainfall can be very sporadic. It may be possible to survive entirely from coconuts and sucking on plants, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to count on it.  In severe drought conditions (such as occurred in the Phoenix Islands in late 1937 and most of 1938) the cocos and plants would most likely dry up also.  There's also the point that in order to take advantage of sucking scaevola you have to know enough to do it.  Sure never occurred to us in four visits and I don't have any reason to believe that AE or Fred had any experience in surviving on desert islands.

Just for fun, go down to the supermarket and buy yourself a coconut (shake it first to be sure there's milk inside).  Now pretend you're AE or Fred on Niku and you have found this thing and have somehow gotten it free of its husk. Your goal is to get the milk out in such a way that you'll be able to drink it.  For tools you have only a small hand ax (listed in the Luke Field inventory) and, let's say, a pocket knife.  I think you'll find that the shell will tend to crack allowing the milk to escape before you can catch it in anything or even hold it over your open mouth.  The Gilbertese hold a green coco in the palm of one hand and, using a very sharp bush knife (machete) held in the other hand, whack away the end of the husk (without amputating their thumb) and then use the point of the blade to dig out a hole so that the whole affair can be drunk from like a jug.  They make it look easy, but I am (in all humility) pretty good with a bush knife and I can't do it. And even if Fred and AE are able to solve the food and water probelm, the island has plenty of other little surprises to make survival interesting.  The sun is a constant enemy (think Lawrence of Arabia with fish).  Any cut or scratch tends to get infected faster than you can say septicemia. Go out on the reef-flat to catch some supper, slip and fall on the coral (very easy to do) and you now have a cut inhabited by living organisms.  Oh, and that fish you caught may well be extremely toxic to eat. Gilligan's Island this ain't.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:55:52 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Custer's remarks

According to the Midwest Archeological Center (www.mwac.nps.gov), Custer's message to Capt. Frederick Benteen during the height of Custer's part of the battle was,

"Benteen, Come on. Big village, be quick, bring packs.  P.S. Bring pacs [sic]"

The runner was Custer's bugler  John Martin, who was the last person to see Custer alive.  it wasn't until two days later when all of the Indians had left the area that Benteen and Reno learned of the loss of Custer and the 200 or so men under his command.  The sole survivor from Custer's command was one of his officers' horse, which had been seriously wounded.

Hope this clears up any problems.

LTM, who also liked a good scrap
Dennis McGee #0149
*****************************************************************
From Ric

Correction.  The last person to see Custer alive was probably the guy who killed him.

The survivor's name was Commanche (Capt. Myles Keogh's mount), a 15.1 hand bay who survived to become the regimental mascot for many years. He was never ridden again.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:59:22 EST
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: Garry Owen/Garryowen

>Actually, I sort of give a rats...This is just the sort of mindless
>esoterica that I find irresistible

Hey Ric, it's a good thing you're moderating this forum - or we might have wandered off-topic into a non rat-worthy area, like what was the last message sent from the Titanic?

LTM,
Russ

P.S. Anybody ever wonder what happened to Amelia Earhart?

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Amelia who?  Sorry.  You're right.  Back to work.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:03:10 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Garry Owen Tune

I used to be able to play that on my harmonica until the dag-nab-it Indians took it.

Curly "E" company 7th Cav
*****************************************************************

From Ric

Or maybe it was captured by the Japanese.

Break's over guys.  Let's get back on topic.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:05:51 EST
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      Re: Eugene Pallette

I am converting the Pallette article to text. If anyone wants a copy, email me at upper14@*******.

Smooth Sailing,
Ron Dawson 2126

******************************************************************

From Ric

Whew, that's big article.  Thanks Ron.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:10:25 EST
From:         Pamela
Subject:      Re: Sucking Scaevola

That is if they weren't seriously injured in the crash and died soon after crash from those injuries.

****************************************************************
From Ric

Except that the available information (post-loss radio signals, debris on the reef flat and possibly in the treeline, castaways' campsite, etc.) suggests that there wasn't a crash at all, but rather a successful landing with the airplane being destroyed by surf action some time later.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:19:01 EST
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Re: Garry Owen

Actually I was wrong about who carried the last note.  It wasn't Curley, it was Trumpeter John Martini.  And it was signed not by Custer, but by his Adjutant, W. W. Cook.  It read:

    Benteen.
    Come on. Big village
    Be quick. Bring packs.
    P.S. Bring packs.

W. W. Cook

    But Benteen's  reply, "Go suck scaevola" is correct!

******************************************************************

From Ric

In a desperate last attempt to find some on-topic relevancy to this whole digression, I'll point out that we have here a classic example of how historical events become simplified, distorted, and mythologized through repeated retellings.  We see this time and again in the Earhart saga. (Well, I tried anyway.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:25:58 EST
From:         Dean Andrea
Subject:      Re: Sucking Scaevola

> Looking back over some of my early correspondence with Harry Maude, he wrote
> in 1991:
> "What baffles me is why Amelia Earhart and her companion should have died.
> There was plenty of food on the atoll, any amount of fish on the reef and in
> the lagoon, and coconuts to drink or eat on the ground or on the trees.  The
> succulent leaves of the boi (Portulaca) make a very nutritious vegetable salad
> and can be sucked for moisture."

When we originally discussed the use of coconuts as a food/moisture source it was mentioned that they  had a laxative effect negating any beneficial effects to sustain life. I ran across an article from the Kenosha News on 1-9-99 which stated that coconuts appear to have just the opposite effect. The juice and the fruit are supposed to have a binding effect . To me, this might mean that they could indeed sustain life for a period of time.

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Sounds like we need to do some experimental research.  Ideally, we need women of German/English descent and men of Irish/English descent to drink exclusively coconut milk for several days and report its effect on their digestive system. Volunteers?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:39:33 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Garryowen last gasp.

I just couldn't resist this last tidbit found by pamelaFromOH@webtv.net at
http://www.discovery.com/area/missinglink/missinglink980119/answerlite.html

The tune Garryowen dates from around 1800 and was used by several Irish regiments.  There is some thought that it was suggested to Custer as the regimental march for the 7th Cavalry by Irish-born Captain Myles Keogh (whose horse Commanche was the only survivor of the fight at the Little Big Horn). Ain't history neat?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:53:44 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Noonan/Pallette letter

I found an article today on the first non-stop trans-Pacific flight. See
http://thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/1998/1198_text.htm

Lots of interesting articles on the HistoryNet pages. Poke around in there a little bit...

Tom #2179

***************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Tom.  That really provides some interesting perspective on what AE and Fred were attempting six years later.  What Pangborn and Herndon did makes the Earhart/Noonan flight from Lae to Howland look like a walk in the park.  It's also interesting to have a real life example of what the Japanese authorities did about  two American's suspected of aeronautical spying.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:05:12 EST
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Electra model

Last summer when the idea for a model of AE's Electra was approved, I wrote and said that I would buy one in a heart beat.  I'm clutching my chest.

Give a mailing address to which I can send my money and it's on the way.

Thanks,
Roger Kelley, #2112
*****************************************************************
From Ric

The mailing address to which you can send your money is:
TIGHAR
2812 Fawkes Drive
Wilmingtin, DE  19808

The model information is on the TIGHAR website at:
http://www.tighar.org/airplane.html

You'll also find a printable order form at:
http://www.tighar.org/airplaneorder.html

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:17:42 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Fred Noonan's writings

Can anyone tell me where Fred Noonan's writings on navigation can be found? And reports such as cited below?  All I have seen to date are his "Making the Landfall" and his letter reproduced in Weems' book, "Air Navigation.
                        **************************
From Daryll Bollinger

Quoting a communication from Tim Coyle

"...All flights by S-42 Pan American Clipper Navigator Noonan used DF bearings also on the first survey flight Oakland/Honolulu April 16-23 1935. Noonan makes reference to 'our' (meaning PAA) DF station at Kaneohe Bay in his report of that flight, so presumably PAA installed that one too. He would also have used a station in the SFO/OAK area..."

*****************************************************************

From Ric

We have a 3-page Pan American internal memorandum dated April 29, 1935 to Operations Manager, Pacific Division, Alameda, Calif., from Navigator, Pan American Clipper, Operations, Alameda, Calif.  Subject:  Hawaiian flight of NR823-M, April 16-17, 1935, Navigation.  It is signed F.J. Noonan.

It's very good.  I'll get Pat to run an OCR on it and put it up as a forum posting (it's not too long).
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:35:46 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Gallagher Papers

Simon Ellwood is currently attempting to find whatever records may exist at Cambridge that might lead us to Gallagher's origins and possible relatives. He will also see what can be found at Stonyhurst.

John Thompson is working on the Gallaghers from the Irish end.  He may be able to do something with the Clancys too... sounds like a good Irish name to me!

The "Miss Clancy," for whom we have an address in Malvern, seems a good line to follow up on.  Unfortunately, Malvern, actually a cluster of several Malverns, is an out of the way place for Simon to check out.  However, I expect to be able to enlist the help of a resident of Malvern to see if that address, or any sort of records that may exist, will lead to living relatives.

The Malvern hills and the several Malvern villages turn out to be a most interesting place in many respects.  One of those being that it's the birthplace of radar!  Malvern is the site of The Royal Signals and Radar Establishment, as it was known during WWII, where radar was perfected on the playing fields of Malvern College.

A lot of high-powered scientists and engineers were brought to Malvern during the war.  And it's likely that a lot of the natives of the region were also employed there.  One of those may have been our Miss. Clancy. That establishment, now called the "Defense Evaluation and Research Agency," may be a source of information on Miss. Clancy.  If I'm real lucky, I may find a contact who is on the inside there!

****************************************************************

From Ric

Go get 'em TIGHAR
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:48:47 EST
From:         Harold Mendelson
Subject:      Coconut milk

Having served in the South Pacific during WWII for 2 1/2 years, I can attest from personal experience that coconut milk has a very definite laxative effect!  Take my word for it.

Harold Mendelson
#2082

*****************************************************************
From Ric

That has also been our experience, but not everyone seems to be affected the same way. 'Scuse me - gotta run.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:52:12 EST
From:         Paul Chattey
Subject:      How to open a coconut

Probably several people will rush to point this out but I'll add the following anyway.

Glad you mentioned a small hatchet, a useful tool for removing the outer husk from a coconut.  As far as I know the Swiss Army does not have any pocket knives with coconut attachments.  They're not needed. A pocket knife alone is sufficient to elegantly open any coconut once you remove the husk. The shell (what we see in the supermarkets) is divided into three sections--kind of like a stubby football with a leather cover.  Each of the sections has an "eye" near the stem that you can very easily puncture with an awl, corkscrew, can opener, tweezers or blade.  The inner meat is very thin at that point.  So, while everyone else is flailing about and not cutting their thumbs off with the bolos, you've upended the coconut for a refreshing drink and are on your second by the time they've started their first.

Of course, it depends if you've got a European coconut or an African coconut.

Paul

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Like so many things - easy once you know how.

Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:43:32 EST
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Garry Owen/Garryowen

> Hey Ric, it's a good thing you're moderating this forum - or we might have
> wandered off-topic into a non rat-worthy area, like what was the last mesage
> sent from the Titanic?

Assuming you mean via wireless.

The last "transmission" was the letter "V" signaled twice at 2:10 AM.

The last "message" (to the Carpathia) was "Come quick; our engine room is filling up to the boilers."

I'm beginning to think SOMEONE on this forum will have the (or at least "an") answer to any question we might post.

    - Bill
*****************************************************************

From Ric

No - no,no,no,no - nobody here knows ANYTHING about the Titanic.  Sorry, can't help you.  Suggest you contact Dr. Ballard.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:54:52 EST
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: Fred Noonan's writings

Ric, you also have the May 11, 1935 letter to Weems which appeared in Popular Aviation in 1938. At least I think I sent it to you. I don't know if it is the same as any of those cited below. I would like to get in touch with Tim Coyle to ask him about his sources for his statment. Can anyone put me in contact with him? Thanks.

>Can anyone tell me where Fred Noonan's writings on navigation can be found?
>And reports such as cited below?  All I have seen to date are his "Making
>the Landfall" and his letter reproduced in Weems' book, "Air Navigation.

Blue skies, -jerry
*****************************************************************
From Ric

Jerry, I think I recall that you sent the Popular Aviation article as a pdf or jpg file but I can't seem to locate it.  Do you remember what you called it?

I don't know who Tim Coyle is.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:07:43 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: How to open a coconut

It dawns on me, a hatchet would likewise be a useful tool for hacking some fairly regularly sized and cleanly cut holes in the skin of an airplane (such as that depicted in the "wreck photo").  One thing that bothers me about the plane in that photo, though, is what appears to be a triangular shaped formation which appears to be behind and to our right of the starboard engine mount (behind the inboard leading edge hole).  The more I look at it, the more it looks like it could be a rudder, and if that's the case, it's the wrong shape for the Electra. On the other hand, and at the same time, almost directly behind the starboard engine mount (just outboard of the outer leading edge hole) is a less distinct circularly shaped object which certainly might be right for an Electra rudder.  Likewise, if one looks in the sort of washed out area above and behind the "nose" and "cockpit" areas, and if one squints just a little, it looks like there's a very similar circular shaped object back there.  I've tried tweaking the computer images of the picture to sharpen it up a little, but without much real success.

Regarding coconuts - I seem to recall having once read that they have been seen to migrate - floating from one island to another...and raw coconut always had an unpleasant effect on me, too!
LTM
jon
*****************************************************************

From Ric

The resolution of the Wreck Photo image mounted on the website is not sufficient to permit any productive tweaking.  There just isn't the room to mount a "killer scan" of the image.  I've played with that image at very high resolutions with the assistance of forensic imaging experts and I can tell you that there's nothing there that might realistically be a rudder - Lockheed 10 or otherwise.

Coconuts do indeed float from island to island.  It has also been theorized that they are carried by sparrows, on occasion as far as Britain.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:20:18 EST
From:         Chuck Boyle
Subject:      Re: Sucking Scaevola

I would like to reply in reference to the liquid available in coconuts.  I was stationed during WW11 with the United States Coast Guard Loran Unit on Atafu Island as part of the Loran Chain which also included Gardner Island.  There were some 500 natives on Atafu and of course many many coconut trees.  We learned from the natives there were three stages of the coconut.  The green stage which was mostly liquid inside and very easy to open.  The shell was green and very soft.  The size of all three stages was about the same.  The green stage was very tasteful and had a lot of fluid.  To drink it all you had to do was cut a one inch square opening at the top. Take out the cut section and you had a drink.  A pen knife would do the job.

The second stage inside was semi soft with a small amount of liquid.  This would be used for cooking, etc.  The third stage was solid and was used as a treat, like candy or sent to market as a topping for our coconut cakes.  The second and third stage were more difficult to remove.  The natives on Atafu and I believe as well on other Islands would have a metal or wooded stake about two to three feet long put in the ground on a slight angle with a sharp point on the top.  They would take the ripe coconut, jam it on to the pointed stake and the small outside section of husk would partly peel back.  They would pull the husk with their hand till it came off.  Jamming the coconut three more times and the nut was out of the husk.  They then took a dull knife 10 inches long, while holding the coconut nut in one hand and hitting it with the dull knife, the coconut nut would break in half.  The semi or hard coconut would be scraped out.  No big deal.  I have seen children four and five year old do this The coconut husk could then be used for cooking fires or for making crafts.  The natives also feed their chickens, pigs and other animal the solid coconut.  You would have to know if you were looking for water, that the green coconuts had liquid in them.

You may also be interested that the island land was divided and owned by individual natives.  Therefore the coconut trees, other plants and food on their property belonged to them as well.  Some of the land had better trees and crops than others.

Lee (Chuck Boyle)    2060

****************************************************************
From Ric

The hard dry coconut meat is called copra and is sold for processing into coconut oil which is used in many products, including soap.  One of the largest copra producing companies in the Pacific was Lever Bros. (sound familiar?).

In our experience, the green nuts are still way up on the tree and hard to get at if you can't climb a coconut tree.  (I can't.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:37:16 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Sucking Scaevola. etc.,etc.

So.. It seems that "go suck scaevola" may not be a useless admonition after all! I had only speculated about draining the juice out of it.

Way back then... I had supposed it might be a climbing sort of vine.  Since that is not the case, are there climbing vines on Niku?  These would be the kind of thing one might literly "drain" to get the juice.  Cut it near the ground than again as high up as you can and let the juice gravity out.  If it's not milky or bitter, it's probably safe.

A "solar still" might have been beyond Amelia and Fred.  That would have been easy if they had some of an airplane to work with.  Otherwise more difficult but not impossible.  They could have distilled pure water from sea water and/or from vegetation.  Make some use of that intense sun!  Of course, you could use a fire too, but why waste all that sunshine?

Coconuts...  Amelia and I grew up in similar environments, in the same local, and in not greatly different times.  A coconut was quite a novelty to a kid in that time.  It didn't take us long to figure out that those three soft spots were a likely point of attack.  After draining out the "milk," we would keep bashing it until we did get it open.  I'll bet Amelia knew about coconuts!  Fred probably did too.  How would one who had sailed and flew around in the South Pacific not know about coconuts?

Curiosity:  How do the crabs get into the coconuts??

Fish...  A fish with scales is probably alright to eat.  I think something in the western culture causes us to be disinclined to eat a fish that does not have scales.  That "conditioning" would probably have protected them from possibly toxic fish.  Of course, all crabs are edible, but they may not have known that.

It does appear that injury and infection would be the greatest peril.  They were not prepared to deal with that effectively.  The means did not exist.

This is just my own pet theory... They may have had more robust immune systems than are found in developed countries today.  They had not grown up on antibiotics. It's probably self-delusion but it is my experience.  I've never been exposed to antibiotics.  I wound myself regularily, typically in less than sanitary conditions, and my wounds do not become infected.  I'll clean a wound at the first opportunity and get rid of any tissue that can't possibly survive and that's it.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

I recall some climbing vines on Niku but they're very woody.

Most of Fred's nautical career seems to have been spent between the U.S. and South America.  Of course, his work with Pan Am took him to Hawaii, Midway, and Wake Island.  We can probably safely assume that he and AE had a layman's familiarity with coconuts.  But here's an interesting point - whatever the identity of the Castaway(s) of Gardner Island, the campsite where the bones were found was not near the only coconut trees on the island at that time, nor were coconut shells found at the campsite.

As for toxic fish - eating only fish with scales will not save you at Niku. Some of the toxic varieties have scales and, to make matters worse, are only toxic at certain times of the year.

Amelia's robust pre-antibiotic immume system was not robust enough to spare her terrible problems with sinus infections for which she ultimately had to have surgery.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:39:28 EST
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Pan Am Airman and Code knowledge

When I went to work for Pan Am in January of 1967 I was told that I would need to pass a code test.  It had been a requirement for all the cockpit positions including navigators and flight engineers.  The requirement was dropped before I finished my initial training and I never did have to demonstrate code knowledge.  I do think that prior to 1967 all Pan Am airmen had to know code although it was just the ability to recognize the letters and numbers, no words per minute requirement.  I don't know what it may have been at the time Fred Noonan was employed by Pan Am.

Dick Pingrey 908C
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:44:10 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Fred Noonan's writings

I'll certainly be interested to see Fred's memorandum on navigation on the Hawaiian flight.  I hope Pat has a lot better OCR than the several I tried to use something over 5 years ago!  The editing required was such a mess that it would have been easier to key it in in the first plsce.

For the past year, or so, I've been seeing things that suggest Fred Noonan wrote quite a bit on navigation.  Somewhere I've got the impression that he had written describing his own navigational methods, etc.  Are you aware of such writings?

****************************************************************

From Ric

Sure.  That's what he writes about in all the sources we've mentioned - the letter to Weems, the article in Popular Aviation, the Pan Am memo.

Sounds like we need to have a section on the website entitled "Fred Noonan On Navigation."
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:20:49 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Tim Coyle

I have already sent Jerry, Tim Coyle's e-mail address, and I thought I would pass it on to the Forum in case anyone else was interested.

twcoyle@****.com.au

Daryll

*****************************************************************

From Ric

But who is he?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:25:28 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      DF Frequencies

I have just recently finished reading a book by John Prados titled " Combined Fleet Decoded". The book examines the war in the Pacific (WWII), incorporating secret intelligence that has not, up until recently, been avialible to most historians. I found the book creditable, with an extensive bibliography.

I wanted to bring it to the attention of the Forum because of parallel events that were occuring the same time AE was in the news.

Some might say that this is off topic but I'm not so sure. We have discussed HF/DF on the Forum before and I wanted to pass along some notes from pg. 75 of this book.

1. D/F, radio direction finder, first invented in Europe in 1907.

2. US Navy began experimenting with them in 1912. First naval communication / DF station was at Bar Harbor Maine. By 1924 there were 24 US Navy direction-finder stations operating or under construction.

3. Radio technology progressed rapidly moving into High Frequency bands, that offered longer range and higher rates of transmission.

4. Coping with this technology required a whole new generation of direction-finding equipment, innovated at Washington's Naval Research Laboratory, where the first experimental antenna would be installed in Jan. 1931.

5. The equipment reached units after perfecting directional loop antenna on which patents were actually issued.

6.Guam and Cavite Navy Yard in the Philippines got HF/DF around May-July 1937.

7. By 1940 the Navy had a HF/DF net of sixteen stations with 65 operators, all under OP-20-G.

( forgoing from" Combined Fleet Decoded " pg. 75 by John Prados ).

The two types of DF antenna that I am aware of are the "Adcock" type and the "Loop" type. I would like to draw the attention of the Forum to note #5. This is the first time I have seen mention of a "loop" antenna in connection with HF high frequency and Mr. Prados mentions that "patents were issued". I think it would be interesting to review the patent ( for the date and who holds it etc.). That brings about another question. Patents are supposed to reveal everything, how can something that might be secret, at the same time be patented?

Along with this Forum posting I would like to include part of Ric's 8/17/98 Forum post titled AE's frequencies (long).

***********************************************

That same day Itasca receives this message from Coast Guard headquarters in San Francisco:

FOLLOWING INFORMATION FROM EARHART THIS DATE QUOTE HOMING DEVICE COVERS FROM 200 TO 1500 AND 2400 TO 48 KILOCYCLES ANY FREQUENCIES NOT REPEAT NOT NEAR ENDS OF BANDS SUITABLE UNQUOTE SUGGEST USING SUITABLE FREQUENCIES HAVING IN MIND UNCERTAIN CHARACTERISTICS OF HIGH FREQUENCIES PERIOD USE 333 KILOCYCLES OR FREQUENCY IN THAT VICINITY AND TRY 545 KILOCYCLES AFTER TESTS WITH STATIONS YOUR LOCALITY TO DETERMINE WHICH IS BEST PERIOD ADVISE IF IMPOSSIBLE TO PLACE TARE 10 TRANSMITTER ON 3105 KILOCYCLES PERIOD EARHART AT LAE VIA TUTUILA EXACT FREQUENCIES SELECTED AND ASSUME CONTINUOUS SIGNALS AFTER HER DIRECTION FINDER IN RANGE PERIOD SEE BROADCAST ON QUARTER AFTER AND QUARTER BEFORE HOUR ON 6210 AND 3105 KILOCYCLES PERIOD AM ADVISING EARHART THAT ITASCA WILL VOICE RADIO HER ON 3105 ON HOUR AND HALF HOUR AS SHE APPROACHES HOWLAND PERIOD REPAIRS MADE AND EARHART NOW AT SOURABAYA EXPECTS LEAVE DAWN THIS DATE FOR PORT DARWIN AND NEXT DAY FOR LAE PERIOD

ADVISE PRIORITY IF ADJUSTMENTS TARE TEN TRANSMITTER SATISFACTORY FOR USE ON 3105

***********************************************

Questions;

Besides me being confused on the frequencies and the uncertain characteristics of high frequencies, what is the TARE TEN TRANSMITTER?
Daryll

****************************************************************
From Ric

I'll have to let someone else answer your question about the "tare ten" transmiiter, but I think I can help clear up some confusion about the above message by breaking it down and paraphrasing it.

"FOLLOWING INFORMATION FROM EARHART THIS DATE QUOTE HOMING DEVICE COVERS FROM 200 TO 1500 AND 2400 TO 48 KILOCYCLES ANY FREQUENCIES NOT REPEAT NOT NEAR ENDS OF BANDS SUITABLE UNQUOTE "

Remember, this is CG headquarters in San Francisco advising Itasca of information they have received:

"Today we received this information from Earhart - 'Our homing device (DF) covers frequencies from 200 to 1500 kcs and 2400 to 4800 kcs.  You can transmit to us on any frequencies not, repeat not, near ends of bands.'

SUGGEST USING SUITABLE FREQUENCIES HAVING IN MIND UNCERTAIN CHARACTERISTICS OF HIGH FREQUENCIES PERIOD USE 333 KILOCYCLES OR FREQUENCY IN THAT VICINITY AND TRY 545 KILOCYCLES AFTER TESTS WITH STATIONS YOUR LOCALITY TO DETERMINE WHICH IS BEST PERIOD

"It sounds to us like Earhart may not understand that that it's a bad idea to try to DF on high frequencies  Check some lower frequencies and see what works best in your locality."

ADVISE IF IMPOSSIBLE TO PLACE TARE 10 TRANSMITTER ON 3105 KILOCYCLES PERIOD

self explanatory.

This next bit got garbled.  It should read:

ADVISE EARHART AT LAE VIA TUTUILA EXACT FREQUENCIES SELECTED AND ASSUME CONTINUOUS SIGNALS AFTER HER DIRECTION FINDER IN RANGE PERIOD

"Send a message to Earhart in Lae - via the radio station in Tutuila, Samoa - telling her the exact frequencies you have selected based on the tests recommended above.  Once her direction finder is in range, start sending out continuous signals on those frequencies."

SEE BROADCAST ON QUARTER AFTER AND QUARTER BEFORE HOUR ON 6210 AND 3105 KILOCYCLES PERIOD

Probably a mistake in reception.  Should read "She will broadcast on quarter hour..." etc.

AM ADVISING EARHART  THAT ITASCA WILL VOICE RADIO HER ON 3105 ON HOUR AND HALF HOUR AS SHE APPROACHES HOWLAND PERIOD

"San Francisco is advising Earhart that Itasca will send voice radio to her on 3105 on the hour and the half hour as she approaches Howland."

REPAIRS MADE AND EARHART NOW AT SOURABAYA EXPECTS LEAVE DAWN THIS DATE FOR PORT DARWIN AND NEXT DAY FOR LAE PERIOD

"The repairs being made in Bandoeng, Java were completed and Earhart has now flown to Sourabaya and expects to leave at dawn today for Port Darwin, Australia and the next day for Lae."

ADVISE PRIORITY IF ADJUSTMENTS TARE TEN TRANSMITTER SATISFACTORY FOR USE ON 3105

"We really want you to be able to use the tare ten transmitter to talk to Earhart on 3105. Be sure and let us know that you can do that."

It seems pretty clear from the above that there is no intention here to test any HF/DF with Earhart.  In fact, headquarters is specifically telling Itasca to find out what low frequencies work best and tell Earhart that Itasca will be using those frequencies.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:53:05 EST
From:         Bill Carter
Subject:      Re: Fred Noonan's writings

Ric - Do you have a mole at Pan Am that can search the company's archives? Perhaps a nicely worded letter to the right people over there and you may get someone to perform a search for anything  that sounds "Noonan" like. May be a long shot considering the amount of time that's elapsed but you never know.  I can tell you that the corporation I work for has a warehouse big enough for a fleet of C-5's and it was founded in 1939.  Pan Am is likely to have something similar and they probably have a web site with contact information.

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Pan American went bankrupt several years ago.  What records survive are archived at the University of Miami.  We (meaning Randy Jacobson) have already dug out what little there is on Noonan.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:59:08 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Re TIM COYLE

I came across Tim Coyle's name on the Pan Am web site, I believe Marty Joy who is a TIGHAR member is also familiar with the name. following is the posting to the Pan Am web site that I am familiar with.
*****************************************************
Early Pan Am Flight Navigators

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ Pan Am Historical Site General
Messages ] [ FAQ ]

Posted by Tim Coyle on October 19, 1998 at 04:36:55:

I am collecting material on the history of air navigation, looking at equipment, pioneer flights and individual Navigators and their companies which advanced the art of air navigation. The period of interest is 1919 to 1970 (when INS took over from the specialist navigator). I would particularly like to correspond with ex Pan Am crew members or dispatchers who could provide information on Pan Am company long range navigational techniques and procedures from 1935 to 1960.

I worked for QANTAS Airways for 26 years as a Flight Dispatcher and Instructor.
******************************************************

Daryll
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:56:37 EST
From:         John Rayfield
Subject:      Re: DF Frequencies

Daryll Bollinger wrote:

> That brings about another question. Patents are supposed to reveal
> everything, how can something that might be secret, at the same time be
> patented?

In some cases, a patent application does not have to reveal quite 'everything'.  For example, software patent applications must include a certain amount of the source code of the application for which a patent is being applied for, but the patent application does not have to include ALL of the source code.  Any parts that might reveal 'trade secrets' can often be left out.

   John Rayfield, Jr.
   Amateur Call: KR0Y
   Springfield, Missouri
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:19:53 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Out from the grave!

Well, I let the forum ride during my 16 days down under in New Zealand!! Over 300 forum entries for me read when I got home! Does that count as being "buried"! It took me four days to wade out from underneath but I'm very glad that I did. Here are my comments and questions from the interesting stuff.

1) Aircraft & Remains- If the L-10E is found, Please Recover It! If by chance the remains are inside, recover these also (with all dignity possible) and return to the families. The L-10E should be cleaned up and displayed as found. The Air and Space Museum in Wash. DC is the most visited museum in the world and the L-10E could either be placed in a special area and/or placed next to the other AE airplane that is already there. We bring home remains from Vietnam crash sites and I remember seeing a display of a crashed Hurricane in The RAF Museum. This would be a far too important aviation artifact to not display. If someone wants to see a replica of the L-10E, then buy one of the Tighar models!

2) Am I the only Forum member that thinks it possible that AE was responsible for the flight becoming lost? Everyone talks about how Fred did this and that to get them lost! Didn't AE overrule FN's direction as they approached the West coast of Africa? Because of that, didn't they end up going the wrong way? Does it really matter who was responsible for getting the flight lost? No, but it seems that the blame always ends up on Fred's shoulders.

3) How experienced was AE in her flying? How many hours did she have? I'm familiar with most of her long distance records but have never heard any mention of her total flying time.

4) Ric, you mentioned that the reef was very rugged and drops straight off. How does your "mother ship" anchor offshore? Concerning the "reef landing," could you explain how that might have been pulled off without enough damage to keep her from making the post-landing radio calls. Is the beach wide enough for a landing (gear up or down)?

5) Is there an accurate, buildable model of the L-10E?

6) While in NZ, I visited two used bookstores and was amazed at the books that are available from non-US sources. A lot of the books are probably impossible to find on-line or anywhere in the US. I would encourage anyone visiting any foreign countries (or those Forum members outside the US) to visit some used bookstores and see what you might be able to dig up concerning any of the regular subjects that we discuss here on the forum. I brought home 12 books that would be very hard or impossible to find anywhere in the US.

7) I still have the 2 hour AE television special on tape and if my friend Simon over in the UK would like, I would be willing to mail it to him. He can contact me at my e-mail address.

8) Does anyone know if or how much water/coffee/juice etc. was brought along on the flight? If they landed at Niku, then any drinks that they had would have been available to them.

Thanks for your patience this letter Ric, I wrote it with the idea of presenting you with as few targets as possible!! Thanks for the greatest web site on the Net! (A little sucking up there just to keep the electronic lashes to a minimum!).

LTM,
Gary Moline
******************************************************************
From Ric

Welcome home Gary.  I'll try to be gentle.

1.  No argument.  I particularly like the bit about buying TIGHAR models.

2.  The Pilot in Command is ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight so, yes, it's on AE's shoulders.  But don't take that story about what happened on the coast of Africa too seriously.  The notations on the maps used and Noonan's recently "discovered" letter of June 9th tell a rather different tale.  Randy Jacobson can fill you in.

3.  I've never been able to get a handle on AE's total time.  We do know that NR16020 had 181 hours on the airframe and engines on April 19, 1937 when repairs were completed.  Elgen Long has calculated the second world flight attempt to have involved 182 hours up to the loss of contact by Itasca, so that makes 363 total hours.  Earhart didn't fly all of the first 181 but she certainly flew the other 182.  She probably had ballpark 300 in type when she disappeared.

4.  We've never been able to anchor at Niku.  The ship stands offshore during the day and then we steam out a few miles and drift for the night.  At low tide the reef flat is dry in many places and some large areas are so smooth you could ride a bicycle.  The beach is not so attractive.  It's wide enough (100 to 150 feet on average) but the sand is quite soft and the beach is steeply sloped in many areas.

5.  The only buildable model of the 10E I know of is a plastic kit just recently offered by Williams Bros.  The scale is a wierd 1/53 and I understand that the accuracy is poor, but I've never seen the kit.  Reportedly, the kit provides decals for Earhart's airplane as well as for optional Navy XR20-1 and Coast Guard XR30-1 versions, with optional window and interior parts to make either the military or Earhart version.  The price is $27.50.  I understand it can be ordered from International Hobby Supplies at 818 886-3113.

8.  We have no information about how much drinkable fluid was carried on the Lae/Howland leg.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:22:08 EST
From:         Dick Evans
Subject:      Responsibility

You asked if anyone ever asked for an exception to a government regulation. The implication is that they are very difficult to get. You should have asked if anyone with a lot of money and influence ever asked for an exception to a government regulation. Easy

Dick Evans
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:24:05 EST
From:         Dick Evans
Subject:      Re: Sucking Scaevola

Can't climb a coconut tree? Good heavens. Just watch the natives. Take a couple of long leaves from the tree, tie them together, tie them around each foot, and go up the tree using the sling for support. We watched them do it all the time.

Chuck,

To open the coconuts, we found the easiest thing to use was a hack saw.

Love to your mother's brother.
Dick Evans
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:25:56 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: DF Frequencies

The 10 Tare Transmitter is one of the three transmitters aboard Itasca, and it is best suited for high frequency voice communications.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:36:09 EST
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Dead End

Just a short status report to let folks know that there are on-going efforts of one kind and another attempting to track down more information on the elusive Fred Noonan.

One of those projects just came to a dead end and did not yield anything. Bill Briska volunteered to contact the Aero Philatelic Federation Of The Americas in Elgin Illinois. Bill was following a lead which Ann Pellegreno gave us indicating this group might have some PAA files from the ex-head of PR. Bill spent about six months trying to turn up something from them but it didn't pan out. Many thanks to him for the effort, however. As they used to say at a place I once worked, "the wheel grinds slow, but the wheel grinds fine".

Blue skies, -jerry
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:39:53 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Immune systems

>Amelia's robust pre-antibiotic immume system was not robust enough to spare
>her terrible problems with sinus infections for which she ultimately had to
>have surgery.

That's the way you develope a robust immune system.  What doesn't kill you will make you tougher!

***************************************************************

From Ric

That's good to know.  I think my first wife probably made me immortal.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:43:59 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Sparrows vs swallows

Yes I am familiar with the name Tim Coyle, he is doing research on navigational techniques in the 30's, particularly as they pertain to the Pacific air routes.

Where did the "sparrow" thing come from? Are we not concerned with "swallows" and the airspeed velocity of an unladen one? and/or can they carry coconuts by latching on to the husk?

Marty 724C

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Sorry.  I meant swallows.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:48:23 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Coconut crabs

I'm still curious about how a crab gets into a coconut.  Has anyone had opportunity to observe how they do it?

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Actually, there seems to be some doubt that Birgus latro can actually pull that off, despite his reputation.  We've recently been reading up on the available literature and there is surprisingly little known about these guys.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:57:49 EST
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Electra in flight

My dear wife gave me a framed picture the other day of an Electra in flight over the Bay Bridge in San Fransisco.  The caption says "Amelia Earhart In Flight - Oakland to Honoluluy - March 17, 1937"

It is a very nice photo which no doubt was taken from another aircraft. However, with my limited knowlege of the geography of the Bay Bridge, I surmise that the aircraft is actually flying East and therefore presumably this photo was not taken during her actual flight to HI.  Artistic License, I think they call it.

Is this a well known photo of AE??  I suppose that since this was taken before the crash in Hawaii, it isn't much use to us, but let me know if you would like to see it.

Andrew McKenna  #1045C

*****************************************************************

From Ric

At last!  A mystery I can actually solve!  I've seen the shot you describe. Here's what happened:

AE, Manning, Mantz, and Noonan planned to depart from Oakland on March 16th but the weather turned out to be too bad to set off across the Pacific. Rather than disappoint the crowds and reporters that had gathetred to see them off, AE made a local flight as a photo-op.  Your picture was taken during that flight.

The next day, March 17th, they left for real and of course did not screw around flying over bridges or other pretty backdrops for photos.  The press used the photos they had shot the day before which, to this day, are often represented as having been taken during their departure for Hawaii.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:02:04 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Toxic fish

>As for toxic fish - eating only fish with scales will not save you at Niku.
>Some of the toxic varieties have scales and, to make matters worse, are only
>toxic at certain times of the year.

Are they toxic in July?

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Good question.  I don't know.  There was a monograph written by a Smithsonian icthyologist by the name of Schultz called "Poisonous Fishes of the Phoenix Islands."  I don't have a copy but I guess we should check it out.

Of course, we don't really know how long AE and FN may have survived.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:13:31 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Noonan Memo

By popular demand, here is Fred Noonan's memo on the navigation of the Clipper flight to Hawaii in 1935:

DATE:   April 29, 1935

TO:             Operations Manager
                Pacific Division
                Alameda, Calif.

FROM:   Navigator, Pan American Clipper
                Operations
                Alameda, Calif.

SUBJECT:        Hawaiian Flight of NR 823-M
                April 16-17 and 22-23, 1935

Navigation

Surface navigation is known, to the profession, as an inexact science. Frequent groundings of vessels equipped with the most modern navigational equipment, and manned by officers highly skilled in their profession, justifies this description of the art.

The factors which contribute to inaccuracies in surface navigation -  currents other than anticipated or estimated, lack of sights, inaccurate radio bearings, etc. - are all encountered in aerial navigation and commonly in intensified form. Hence is it impossible on an extended flight to obtain consistently accurate "fixes" by any single method, or by any combination of methods. But by an understanding of the weaknesses of each method, it should be possible to greatly minimize the errors inherent in all of them.

An analysis of the navigation of the NR 823-M during the flights from Alameda to  Honolulu and return reveals some interesting information. Pointing out, as it does, weaknesses of the different methods, and human errors possible, it can be of assistance in formulating navigational procedure tending to minimize both.

The inaccuracies of direction finding bearings can be very definitely cataloged: twilight effects, faint signals, wide splits of minima, and inaccurate calibration. The latter, being of a temporary nature, may be ignored. The error, due to twilight effects, may be negligible and again so erratic as to render the bearings valueless. This seems to be substantiated by bearings plotted on the two charts covering the flight. Reference to the westbound chart will show that bearings from Alameda during the evening twilight period were consistently steady. On the return trip, bearings from Kaneohe Peninsula during the twilight period were very erratic. Afterwards they steadied up considerably. Inasmuch as the ship was on approximately the same bearing at all times, the error would not seem to be due entirely to inaccurate calibration.

Under conditions such as existed when leaving Oahu; that is, bearings generally showing a large set off the track, no means of checking drift angle, and the only heavenly body visible affording no means of determining change of latitude, the navigator must rely upon his judgment. In the instance mentioned, after obtaining a line of position from the sun at 0340 G.C.T., a glance showed that if the 0328 bearing were advanced to cross the line of position the ship would be considerably ahead of her D.R. position for the short time out from land. Doubting the ship was making the drift and speed so indicated, the course was maintained.-Subsequent bearings and sights showed the ship to be to the southward, rather than the northward, of her required track.

With respect to faint signals and wide splits of minima, the plotted long range bearings straddled the ship's position fairly equally; hence, a mean of such bearings should give the navigator a fair bearing from the station.

Another condition which may cause the navigator to be doubtful of his exact position is such as existed during the return flight while between the 45th and 155th meridians. Sights consistently showed the ship to be to the southward of the original great circle track. Some few D.F. bearings agreed with the "fixes" so obtained, but the majority placed the ship varying distances to the northward. Due to the facts that the observations were made during slightly rough air conditions, and that the bearings, although generally placing the ship to the northward, were not uniform, it was at first difficult to definitely decide which method was more reliable. During this period, to minimize any divergence from the required track, it was assumed the ship was on a track approximating the mean of the two methods.

Subsequent observations were made under smoother flying conditions, and they, plus additional D.F. bearings and the courses and distances flown, showed the earlier "fixes" to have been approximately correct. By "approximately
correct", accuracy within ten to fifteen miles is implied. The writer's
experience has shown that a "fix" within that distance of the true position is about the average accuracy which can be expected in aerial navigation.

It is impossible to lay down hard and fast rules by which one may determine the reliability of observations. However, after some experience a navigator "senses" whether or not a sight is reliable. If the ship is noticeably in horizontal flight, differences in a run of altitudes and times are fairly uniform, and, if the "feel" of good sights exists, the resultant "fix" will in all probability be more accurate than a position determined by long range D.F. bearings. Successive "fixes" in agreement should definitely establish the ship's position, irrespective of other indications; such as, D.F. bearings, to the contrary.

If observations are not reliable, the fact should be readily discernible by the lack of agreement in "fixes".

Illustrative of the degree of error possible when sights are taken under adverse conditions is the 1124 G.C.T. "fix" on the eastbound chart, determined by observations of *Polaris and *Altair. These sights were obviously unreliable and consequently were discarded, but were plotted on the chart for demonstration purposes. During the hours between approximately 0900 and 1200 .C.T., it was difficult to obtain reliable sights due to the movement of the plane. Under such conditions a record of the ship's position must be obtained by a combination of dead reckoning and the mean bearing determined by any group of D.F. bearings.

In connection with the difficulty experienced in taking observations while the plane was not in smooth flight, it was interesting to note that much  more reliable observations were obtained while the ship was flown manually than was possible while the robot pilot was used. Also, that better results were obtained from observations of bodies nearly ahead or astern than from bodies abeam.

The human error, which is difficult to eliminate, and for which no "mean" can be determined, was also apparent. The first instance concerned the intercept for the observation of * Sirius at 0427 G.C.T. on the westbound flight. The observed altitude of this star was less than the computed altitude, hence the intercept should have been applied away from, or to the eastward of, the assumed position. By error it was applied to the westward. The position obtained by reason of this error confirmed the estimated ground speed. But for the error, the decrease in ground speed would have been apparent at that time and subsequent D.P. positions would have been more accurate.

A somewhat similar error was made by the Radio Operator. This consisted of incorrect application of the goniometer calibration correction to bearings taken on either or both of the steamships "Malolo" and "Monterey" at approximately 1200 G.C.T. during the westbound flight. The resulting incorrect bearings gave a position so obviously wrong they were discarded.

Although such errors are made under all conditions,, it is believed a reduction of paper work during flight would tend to reduce such errors. Such reduction of paper work could be obtained by shortening the position reports to a statement of latitude, longitude, track desired, and ground speed, and leaving the compilation of the log data (excepting cloud formations) to be completed on the ground after each flight. The information necessary to do this could be obtained from the flight engineer's report.

A very definite check on ground speed may be obtained by goniometer D.F. bearings of surface vessels when abeam or nearly so. Short distance bearing obtained by the goniometer proved to be very reliable, but distant bearings - for example, from Los Angeles - were not accurate.

An Analysis of the entire navigational data of the subject flights indicates that it is impossible to determine consistently accurate positions during extended over-water flight, but that a degree of accuracy which will insure safe navigation and reasonably direct tracks may be obtained by careful consideration of existing conditions when utilizing dead reckoning, radio direction finding, or celestial navigation. With respect to the errors in the D.F. bearings, if they can be kept within the limits of those appearing in the bearings received from Alameda during both stages of the flight, they may be considered as negligible. While the use of bearings will not insure extreme accuracy in navigation, they are nevertheless of inestimable value and will always serve as a dependable homing device.

F. J. Noonan
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:44:42 EST
From:         Dqryll Bollinger
Subject:      RE NOONAN'S MEMO

I don't understand the items in parentheses. Are these type-Os? Different things? Your mistake or Fred's?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
< Hence( is it) impossible on an extended flight to obtain consistently
accurate "fixes" by any single method,>

<position the ship would be considerably ahead of her (D.R.) position
for the short time out from land.>

<apparent at that time and subsequent (D.P.) positions would have been
more accurate.>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 Also does, <45th and 155th meridian> translate to Lat. & Long. ?

Daryll
******************************************************************
From Ric

I'll try to help you.

<<Hence( is it) impossible on an extended flight to obtain consistently accurate "fixes" by any single method,>>

This is correctly transcribed and is, at least to me, quite clear.  When Fred says "Hence is it impossible..." he is merely saying "Because of the the reasons I just gave, it is impossible...".

<<position the ship would be considerably ahead of her (D.R.) position
for the short time out from land.>>

D.R. is the standard abbreviation for Dead Reckoning.

<<apparent at that time and subsequent (D.P.) positions would have been
more accurate.>>

This is a typo on our part and should read D.R.

<<Also does, <45th and 155th meridian> translate to Lat. & Long. ?>>

Another typo. A meridian is a line of longitude.  It should read "145th and 155th meridians..."

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:00:28 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Crabs and Coconuts

Ric sez:

>Actually, there seems to be some doubt that Birgus latro can actually pull
>that off, despite his reputation.  We've recently been reading up on the
>available literature and there is surprisingly little known about these guys.

If they're climbing the tree to get them, maybe it's the unripe ones they're after.  We've been told these are easier.  The crabs do climb trees, huh? Has anyone seen them do that?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:01:50 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Whose fault?

Gary Moline wrote:

>2) Am I the only Forum member that thinks it possible that AE was responsible
>for the flight becoming lost? Everyone talks about how Fred did this and that
>to get them lost!
<snip>
>it seems that the blame always ends up on Fred's shoulders.

I've not felt the forum was inclined to blame Fred.  The consensus seems to be that he got them very close.  As close as could be reasonably expected. It just wasn't close enough for them to make visual contact with the tiny speck in the ocean.  So, Amelia had the responsibility, but where was the fault?  The fault was that she was not properly prepared.  She didn't know the radio well enough.

All I can make of it is that they were both overly confident.  Amelia in her seat-of-the-pants flying, and dumb luck, and fred in his navigation... almost good enough, but not quite.  Sometimes that will happen when you try to accomplish the very difficult.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:07:27 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Crabs and coconuts

Vern asks if the crabs climb trees.  Yes, with great agility, skinning rats as they go.  Quite remarkable critters.

LTM
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:04:20 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Re: Whose Fault?

Regarding the response from Vern Klein about my feeling that FN was being blamed for the flight getting lost, let me explain. After returning from New Zealand earlier this month I had the "joy" of wading thru over 300 messages on the forum. During the three days that I spent reading them (I couldn't stand to miss anything!) I got the impression that the general feeling amongst everyone was that it was FN's fault. I think that by reading over 100 messages a day versus reading them as they come along over a longer time period, I couldn't help but come up with that impression.

Vern, your point is well taken and very logical, thanks for the insight! We know so little about what happened inside that aircraft during that last flight that we are left with only speculation based on the few facts that we do have.

LTM,
Gary Moline
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:04:42 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Pan Am Pacific Bases (long)

After reading Fred Noonan's memo on the survey flight between Oakland/Honolulu that was posted on 1-19-99, I went to the Pan Am Historical website to look around. While Fred Noonan was conducting the navigation part of the survey flights, Pan Am and the Navy were busy building the seaplane bases on Hawaii, Midway, Wake, Guam and Manila.

While reading the following account, I noted that the Navy had sent along two observers and had sent a Survey Ship with a seaplane (sounds like a seaplane tender ) to Wake. I also noted that the Adcock Radio Direction Finding equipment sounds like the same radio equipment that the Navy's OP-20-G used for Radio Intelligence on Guam and Cavite. It is also interesting that the Pan Am people finished the seaplane station on Wake, and left the Navy to finish the station on Guam and Manila.


The Pacific Bases
John G. Borger
VP - Engineering (ret)
Pan American World Airways

On March 27, 1935, the S.S. North Haven embarked from San Francisco for Honolulu, Midway, Wake, Guam, and Manila, to prepare bases for Pan Am's flying boats to cross the Pacific. Aboard was a 21-year-old Junior Assistant Engineer, six months out of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In 1980, he retired as Pan Am's Vice President-Engineering. Here, 60 years later, are his recollections of the expedition.

The SS North Haven

What's amazing is that eight of us in the Chrysler Building in New York planned this expedition in two months. Captain L.L. Odell, Pan Am's Chief Airport Engineer, was in charge of planning, and Charles Russell in charge of the expedition. I was just out of college, and was chief clerk. I remember our Request for Capital Appropriation was over a million dollars, one of the biggest RCA's at the time; the Board okayed it immediately.  The North Haven was the perfect ship for the job. The 6,700 ton freighter had been taking cannery workers to Alaska, and its lower deck was a dormitory with double bunks, and we had 112 plus the ship's crew aboard. It had huge refrigerators, and we had to carry six months' worth of food for Midway and Wake. We had to plan to load it so the things we'd need to unload first were loaded last. Honolulu and Manila were cities, of course, and Guam had a Navy base, so we only needed to install radio navigation and communications equipment there. But we had to build bases from scratch on Midway and Wake. Midway was a relay station on the transpacific underwater cable, and 23 people manned the cable station, so we had pretty good information about Midway. It had a deep lagoon and water. But Wake was totally uninhabited; all we had on it were a hydrographic chart with no detail, and an article in National Geographic magazine. We needed Adcock direction finding stations at all the bases, and each station needed 16 antenna masts. I was told to order 35-foot poles for all the stations, and I did. They didn't tell me they meant 35 feet above the ground, plus another five feet in the ground. We got the 40-foot masts in San Francisco. My 35-foot masts later became stringers to reinforce the docks at Midway and Wake. The Adcock direction finder was phenomenal for its time. A radio operator in an airplane could hold down his transmitter key, and a ground operator could get a bearing within 1 degree at a range up to 1,500 miles. With bearings from two stations, the Clipper could fix its position with great accuracy. One perfect night a station in Alameda got a bearing from a Clipper between Guam and Manila, but that was exceptional.  We loaded into the ship 12 prefabricated buildings for Midway, and 12 for Wake. We loaded *for each base* two diesel engines to generate electricity; two windmills to pump water up and get water pressure; a Caterpillar tractor with interchangeable bulldozer blade and crane (Seabees later made great use of these); 4,000-gallon tanks for both aviation gas and water. We were supposed to load 5,000 55-gallon drums of aviation gas, but when they'd loaded 1,600 the loaders went on strike. The North Haven had to pick up more gas at Manila and drop it off on its return trip. On the deck we loaded two 38-foot power launches, one for Midway and one for Wake, and a 26-foot launch for Guam, intended for air-sea rescue; and six barges to tow the cargo ashore.  We had nearly 80 construction workers. Some reports say they were mostly college boys. But except for a few of us, they were all professional construction workers, carpenters, plumbers, electricians. Some had worked on the Boulder Dam. We also carried the 12 Pan Am employees who would man Midway, and the 12 who would man Wake. We had two Navy observers, two Pan Am radio engineers, and a journalist, Junius Wood, aboard.  In Honolulu we dropped the radio equipment at our base at Pearl City, across from Pearl Harbor, with our Station Manager J. Parker Van Zandt. The Navy had sent a survey ship with a seaplane to Wake, which took pictures that showed a break in the coral reef that surrounded Wake, so the ship could land the cargo on the shore. The pictures also showed that many coral heads had built up in the lagoon. We needed six feet of water to land an M-130, so we took on a ton of dynamite and picked up a powder man at Honolulu. We also picked up six cooks and waiters for each island, and Bill Mullahey, who was brought up in Hawaii, educated at Columbia, and whose father worked for the cable company. Bill was another of us "college boys."  At Midway we had to unload in the open sea. It was hairy. We loaded the cargo onto the barges, and the power launches towed then four or five miles through the reef to the beach. I watched one barge slide down a swell sideways. Strangely, we didn't lose a thing. One sailor injured his hand in the unloading, but we also had a doctor aboard. When we got to the shore, we loaded the cargo onto 4x20-foot sleds we'd designed, and the tractors towed them into place.  First we set up a temporary power plant; we had electricity the first night. Then we set up the food storage building, with a walk-in refrigerator and freezer, so the ship could leave. Then the construction workers started setting up the mess hall and kitchen; two crew buildings, one for base personnel and one for transiting aircrews (the hotel wasn't built till 1936); the Station Office with operations, the radio operator, and dispatch; buildings for the radio transmitter and the Adcock direction finder; a repair shop for the chief mechanic; the station manager's quarters, and a permanent power plant. We erected the windmills to pump water, and buried the 4,000-gallon tanks for gas and water, though not deeply.  The North Haven waited while all the construction workers unloaded the cargo and the food. Then we picked up 46 construction workers, leaving 23 to finish the base at Midway, and sailed for Wake. Wake is made up of three islands. It's true it was uninhabited* except for birds; we had to wear hats We'd planned to put the station on Wilkes Island, which is open to the sea, but the survey team found it was too low in the water. So was Wake Island. But Peale Island, on the far side of the lagoon, was okay. We unloaded the cargo into a storage yard on Wilkes Island, then built a 50-yard railroad (somebody by inspiration had brought light-gauge railroad track) to the lagoon. We put the small launch on a barge and, with the help of the tractor, we shoved it across the knee-deep channel between Wake and Wilkes. The launch towed the barges of cargo across the lagoon to Peale Island, where we did the same song and dance as at Midway. Wake depended on rainfall for water, so we rigged canvases on the roofs, drained them into underground tanks, then pumped the water up to the windmills. We had to clear the coral heads to provide a six-foot deep open landing area in the Wake lagoon for the M-130 to land. So we hung a length of a light-gauge railroad track six feet deep under a barge, and a launch towed the barge back and forth across the lagoon. When the track hit coral, it shook the barge, wakened the guy sleeping on it, and he threw a cork buoy with an anchor to mark the spot. Then Bill Mullahey and I, in a rowboat, rowed out to the buoys. Bill put on goggles he'd made out of bamboo, took a bamboo spear, and dove down and inspected the coral head. The spear was in case he saw any fish that looked good for dinner while he was inspecting. The snorkel had not been invented; he just held his breath. Bill surfaced and said, give me six, or eight, sticks of dynamite, dove back down and tied them to the coral. He resurfaced, I rowed us upwind as far as we could, and he pressed a magneto button and blew up the coral. We rowed back, picked up the fish the blast had killed, and brought them back for dinner. We did this till we cleared a pie-shaped landing area, with the point near the dock. We marked the area with empty 50-gallon diesel drums. We'd built a 400-foot dock, using my 35-foot antenna masts as stringers, and attached the barge to the end of it. The barge now had a more dignified name: it became the landing float.  The North Haven sailed on to Guam and Manila to deliver the radio equipment, leaving us and the construction party at Wake. It had to find a launch at Guam; we kept Guam's launch at Wake, figuring that the navy at Guam had boats.  Every day the wind blew from the southeast. Station Manager George Bicknell recorded it every day, and I recorded it every night. That was good, because it favored the length of the lagoon. The first day the wind blew from the southwest was the day Captains R.O.D. Sullivan and Jack Tilton (later Pacific Division Operations Manager) flew an S-42 in on the survey flight, which meant they had to land in the width of the lagoon, which Captain Sullivan discussed rather colorfully on arrival. The first China Clipper arrived in November, bringing us turkey for Thanksgiving, and continued to Manila. Eastbound on its way back, it picked up seven of us at Wake, another three or four at Midway, and took us to Honolulu, where got on a ship to San Francisco. The expedition was over. The China Clipper had crossed the Pacific. Air service to Asia had begun.

This story originally appeared in Issue 2 of "The Clipper", the newletter of The Pan Am Historical Foundation.


Daryll
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:04:27 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Fred Noonan's writings

>Sure.  That's what he writes about in all the sources we've mentioned - the
>letter to Weems, the article in Popular Aviation, the Pan Am memo.

The Pan Am memo is an interesting discussion of combined navigational methods and the strengths and weaknesses of each.  I keep hoping we'll find somethig more down to the bare metal... something that might have been used in teaching navigation.

In Fred's letter to Weems published in his book, he talks a lot obout equipment but not much about methods.  He does say he uses the Dreisonstok method for computations of observations.  I'll have to check into that.

I wonder if the letter included in the article in Popular Aviation is the same latter published in Weems' book?  My library let me down.  They have Popular Aviation up through the first half of 1937 but nothing in 1938 and picking up again some time later after a name change.

Do you know it to be a different letter or may it be the same one?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:14:27 EST
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: Fred Noonan's Writings

>I wonder if the letter included in the article in Popular Aviation is the
>same letter published in Weems' book?"

The answer is yes. I have been in contact with Tim Coyle about various Noonan  and navigation things. He has the Weems book and we compared the letter in it to the one I have from Popular Aviation. They are exactly the same, although the one in the book did not have Fred's address.

blue skies, -jerry
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:14:33 EST
From:         Suzanne T.
Subject:      Re: Whose fault?

I don't see the significance of discussing whose fault it may have been that AE and FN failed to reach Howland Island. If there is some value in this discussion which could possibly help us find them, I need to be enlightened.

Best regards,
Suzanne T.

**********************

Got a point there, Suzanne....

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:21:38 EST
From:         Hugh Graham
Subject:      Re: Whose Fault?

Gary Moline wrote:

> I got the impression that the general feeling amongst
> everyone was that it was FN's fault. I think that by reading over 100
> messages a day versus reading them as they come along over a
> longer time period, I couldn't help but come up with that impression.

Nope, I agree with Vern Klein.  It was Amelia's fault.  She was not prepared radio-wise.  She begs off taking her radio license test. She leaves her trailing wire antenna in Miami which drastically reduced her xmit signal strength on 500Khz after being told that Itasca couldn't radio direction find on high frequencies.  She apparently didn't test her radio & RDF after takeoff from Lae.  She continued to fly for 2,000 miles apparently not realizing that her radio wasn't receiving on 3,105 and 6,210Khz.  And then when she does hear something on 7,500Khz, she switches back to 6,210?  Her radio techie Joe Gurr referred to "cockpit trouble" as being the reason for previous radio "troubles" back in the USA.

And why is this discussion relevant?  Because the whole hypothesis of AE & FN having landed on or near Nikumaroro atoll is based on logic and good judgement, which attributes seemed in short supply.  LTM, HAG.

******************************************************************
From Ric

You sound like the House Managers - and your facts are about as good.

Yes, she did beg off taking her radio license test.

No, she did not leave her trailing wire in Miami. (Photos show it was never reinstalled after the Luke Field wreck.)

No, this did not happen after Earhart was told that Itasca couldn't radio direction find on high frequencies. (That communication occurred months later.)

Your next two statements - that she didn't test her radios and that she proceeded knowing that they were not functioning - are mutually exclusive. No, she did not switch back to 6210 after hearing the signal on 7500.  She switched back to 3105 because the signals on 7500 were in code and she needed to establish voice contact.  Itasca could not send voice on 7500. And as for Joe Gurr, he seems to have created more problems than he solved.

Suzanne is correct.  Laying blame doesn't help us find the airplane.  The available evidence suggests that the flight reached Nikumaroro.  Whether that was due to adept contingency planning or blind dumb luck is immaterial.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:26:30 EST
From:         Ted Whitmore
Subject:      Coconuts vs Coconuts

Amen to Chuck Boyle's info on coconuts on Jan 16.  While in Hawaii before going to the Phoenix Island Loran chain we went through sea/jungle survival school.  They taught that coconut trees could provide everything a person needs to survive indefinitly.

Good drinking water comes from green coconuts - they have a goodly supply of water with a dilute coconut flavor (very good) and at that stage the meat inside the nut is gelatinous and quite tasty as well as  nutritous. The heart bud of the trees is a great vegetable, eaten raw or cooked.  The trick is cutting the heart out of a live tree (killing it of course).

The meat of the ripe coconut is firm but moist, sweet and nutritous.  It is easily 'snapped' out of the shell with a knife blade or grated out with a hard coconut inner shell with some teeth cut into it.  BUT, too much of that treat will give you the potty trots.  Grated and twisted in a piece of cloth  or handful of fiber from coconut husks you can extract a delicious fluid 'creamy milk' and the dry gratings can be roasted and brewed into a tasty coffee like drink, creamed, of course with the 'creamy milk' extract.

Dried, the meat of the coconut is 'copra', a major export from many coconut rich areas of the tropics. Oil is pressed from the dried meat and is widely used in many food items and industrial applications.  Shredded coconut meat we are all familiar with in culinary uses but has gone somewhat out of favor because of cholesterol content and  we don't have a good substitute. Nor can you make coconut cream pie without grated coconut.

You should see a Polynesian man climb a coconut tree to harvest one or two nuts of the right degree of ripeness. sometimes climbing 40 to 60 ft. in a matter of  15 to 20 seconds.  The coconuts are twisted to break them loose from their stem in the cluster, then held upright, given a twist so they will fall straight to the ground to land on their blossom end and not break open when they hit.

Palm leaves are split from end to end (just grab the outer tip leaves and pull them apart) pieces are woven together and form the major wall coverings for thatched houses but are not as good for thatched roofing as the leaves of the pandanus which also grows abundantly on the islands.

As Chuck said, the hard inner shell is easily made into charcoal and is their primary fuel for cooking fires.  After a cook fire has done its job they just add dried shell to the fire, cover it with coral rocks to keep the fire from flaming and ola! charcoal when it's time to cook again.  The hard inner shells can be made into fishhooks, polished and made into costume jewelry, etc.

Excellent twine is made from fibers combed from the other husk of the coconuts and is used for everything from fishing lines to bindings for house construction and assembling outrigger canoes.

And yes, coconuts float great distances on the oceans and will sprout and grow a tree wherever the tides cast them up on land.   Ah yes, another good food item:  a sprouted coconut with just a couple of feet of frond showing when split open will be filled inside with a spong textured mass of what used to be the meat of the nut.  Very tasty, 'coconut bread'.

But getting coconuts down to the ground and getting the outer husk removed is a major problem unless you have a good sheath knife or hatchet or can fashion and figure out how to use the sharp stob the natives use so deftly to remove the inner nut in about 10 seconds.  You'll work long and hard before you learn to deftly extract the nuts.

Best wishes to all,  Ted Whitmore # 2169   <\\\><
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:39:13 EST
From:         Ted Whitmore
Subject:      An interesting web site

http://cliffie.nosc.mil/~NAWFB/factbook/map-gif/kr-150.gif

gives a map showing the relative location of a large portion of the central Pacific Ocean.

Niku is not named but Rawaki (Phoenix Islands) are identified.

There is a lot more information available from the basis URL for those interested in snooping through it.

Ted Whitmore  #2169   <\\\><

****************************************************************

From Ric

Rawaki huh?  That's a new one on me.  One problem with all such maps is that in order to show the islands so that they can be seen on the map they are represented by dots about 50 miles in diameter.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:21:16 EST
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Whose fault?

> I don't see the significance of discussing whose fault it may have been that
> AE and FN failed to reach Howland Island. If there is some value in this
> discussion which could possibly help us find them, I need to be enlightened.

The only point I might see is that it might make a difference in how to search.  Even at that, though, I wouldn't want to see it as "laying blame" but rather as an examination of human error.

As a wild example, if it were known that Fred always tended to err a particular way in navigation, then that could place the search area in one direction.  If it were alternatively known that Amilia tended to err a different way, then it might point in another direction.

As an example, my wife has had her car break down a few times over the years (twenty years, I know her fairly well).  I've learned, over time, that when I get direction to where she is and I compare them to the actual roads I'm driving that she tends to miscount low the number of side roads I'll pass looking for the one she's on and that the ones she misses are the smaller ones that look like driveways.  Thus, when I go looking for her, if I don't count the smaller roads I find her quicker than if I do.

What I'm driving at is if we assume a navigation error AND we know something about Fred we might conjecture a certain kind of error.  If we assume a piloting error, and we know something about Amelia, we might conjecture a different kind of error.

In all of this, of course, I assume that we're all still open minded enough to consider that they might not have made it to Gardner.  If we're not, then there is, indeed, no point at all in considering who or how any putative error occurred.

Bill  #2229

****************************************************************

From Ric

When we first decided to take a look at Niku we made that decision based upon the navigational logic of Niku and neighboring McKean being the most likely and that a competent navigator could reach (having failed to find Howland). Since then, our research has turned up abundant documentary, photographic, and artifactual evidence that something very unusual happened on Nikumaroro which seems best explained by the arrival and subsequent destruction of the Earhart Electra and the stranding and eventual demise of its crew. As you point out, patterns of previous behavior can be useful in speculation about what an individual might do.  Just as a detective studies the modus operandi of a suspect, we study the background and track record of Earhart and Noonan to try to develop reasonable hypotheses we can test. Assigning blame is not part of that exercise.

What the record seems to tell us is that Amelia is a risk taker who frequently  bites off more than she can chew but survives through sheer determination and level-headed courage.  Noonan is an old pro, highly competent in his field and no stranger to dicey situations.  Given those assessments, the known difficulties and theorized outcome of the Lae/Howland flight seem reasonable.

Of course, our minds are open to the possibility that the flight ended somewhere other than Niku but until we have some glimmer of evidence suggesting an alternative location, or have explained away the evidence which now points to Niku, we have to keep looking in the most likely place.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:27:19 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Coconuts vs Coconuts

Great list of the many uses of the coconut, Ted.  No doubt AE and FN could have survived for a long time on coconuts (and fish, crabs, and all the other goodies that Niku can supply), IF (a) there was a goodly supply of coconuts on a goodly supply of trees (not at all certain), and IF (b) they could get past the problem with which you conclude your note:

"But getting coconuts down to the ground and getting the outer husk removed is a major problem unless you have a good sheath knife or hatchet or can fashion and figure out how to use the sharp stob the natives use so deftly to remove the inner nut in about 10 seconds.  You'll work long and hard before you learn to deftly extract the nuts."

True, and you also need to be able to climb the tree, which I know from experience is no mean feat for someone who doesn't grow up doing it.  There were a couple of people on the '89 expedition who learned to do it, more or less, but only with instruction from our Fijian crew, and their progress was pretty terrifying to watch.  The injuries one could sustain trying to get and open coconuts are many and various, and as we all know, injuries (particularly those that break the skin) are a real serious problem on a tropical island without antibiotics.  It's not hard to imagine AE and FN GETTING coconuts to eat and drink from, but at the cost of life-ending injuries.

Tom King

*****************************************************************

From Ric

During the 1989 trip our Kiribati representative was distressed to receive a radio message from home that his brother had been paralyzed in a fall from a coconut tree (he recovered).
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:26:31 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      1921 licensing

From Ric

I'm working along on this blankety-blank Eighth Edition and I need some help.

From the available secondary sources (biographies) I'm trying to sort out AE's flying career and, specifically, her early training.  She starts taking lessons in Neta Snook's "Cannuck" in January 1921, buys her Kinner Airster that summer and continues taking instruction.  Despite 20 hours of dual (about 5 in the Curtiss and 15 in the Kinner) she refuses to solo until she has had instruction in "stunting."  She changes instructors and, after "several months" of additional training during which she learns to do loops, spins, and barrel rolls, she final consents to solo.  After that, the implication is that she is now a pilot and can carry passengers and fly around all over the place. No mention of actually obtaining a license.

Here's my question:  What were the licensing regulations in 1921?  Was there yet such a thing as a federally-issued pilot's license?  What did you have to do in 1921 to become "a pilot." I know that the National Aeronautic Association, the American arm of the Federation Aeronautique Internationale, was issuing pilot certificates.  Amelia was awarded Certificate Number 6017 on May 16, 1923.  What did that have to do with anything?

Also, can anyone actually pin down the date when AE finally soloed?

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:59:59 EST
From:         Jim Van Hare
Subject:      Re: 157-337 line of position

I've been lurking in the wings for some time now, and have the impression that AE's statement that they were on a line 157-337 has resulted in a general assumption that this was a valid navigational LOP (Line Of Position) obtained by FN with a celestial observation, perhaps on the sun.

If one draws a line from Lae to Howland Island and draws a perpendicular to that line through Howland, that perpendicular is 157-337 degrees. The statement she made might simply reflect that their DR (Dead Reckoning) position showed they should have been over Howland, and since they couldn't see Howland they were possibly north or south along that perpendicular to their planned true course line.

Just a thought . . .  Also, I wonder if anyone has managed to obtain the appropriate tables for that date to figure out what kind of Line Of Position one might obtain from shooting the sun (or the moon which is often visible in the morning).  My recollection is that the best time for a sun line was at noon, but I'd have to defer to any celestial navigators out there.  Celestial navigation was not my strong suit and the USAF in its wisdom put me into low-level weather recon.

Jim Van Hare

*****************************************************************

From Ric

What the tables show is that on July 2, 1937 in that part of the world, the sun rose at 67 degrees true.  A shot on the rising sun would yield an LOP of 337/157.  Advance that by DR through your intended destination (Howland) and when the time is up - bingo - you're there, or at least you're on the same line with Howland (and Baker, and Mckean, and Gardner).
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:43:43 EST
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      1921 pilot License Requirements

I don't have a documented answer to your question about the license requirements faced by Amelia in or around 1921 but we have a case situation here in my area that may help.  Recently our pioneer aviator, Charles McAllister, died at age 94.  He started a fixed base operation in 1926 having learned to fly in Portland, Oregon where Tex Rankin was his instructor in 1923 or 24 (I think).  His pilot certificate was issued by the International Pilot's Federation (or what ever it was called at that time) and it was signed by Orville Wright.  It wasn't until some time later that the CAA or what ever it was called in the late '20s or early '30s issued him a pilot license.

I suspect the only requirement for a pilot certificate in the early '20s was to safely solo an airplane.  I am also quite confident that all such pilots were grandfathered by the government and issued certificates without any test once the government got into the business.

It was not unusual to have student pilots with as little as three or four hours total time "hopping passengers" (carrying passengers for hire) back in the '20s.  Why waste an empty seat as long as the student was going to be out flying?

Dick Pingrey 908C
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:56:52 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Pan Am History

Randy wrote:

>Parenthetically, joint classified Navy/CG meetings on emergency use of
>HF/DF for search and rescue pointedly state that PAA's equipment was far
>superior to their own. As food for thought for the conspirators, perhaps
>PAA was part of the network!

I didn't respond to at the time because I, quite frankly, hadn't given it much thought. I knew at the time that the US government trusted Pan Am enough to carry classified (secret) material from Cavite, Guam and Hawaii back to US soil and vice versa. I realized also that the Pan Am HF/DF equipment happened to come into use about the same time that the Navy's radio intelligence HF/DF equipment appeared on the scene. This could have been argued as a "coincidence".

Juan Trippe, the founder of Pan Am, relied on the US Mail contracts to sustain Pan Am in the early years. I think he knew which side his bread was buttered on, if the government came to him for something, he was willing to co-operate. Pan Am also had other interests in China, besides flying passengers there, before WWII.
****************************************************************
From Ric

At the end of his submitted posting Daryll included a huge long section from the Pam Am historical website about the airline's covert involvement with the U.S. government in the years immediatley prior to, and in the first years of, WWII.  It's interesting aviation history but it's off topic for this forum. If anyone would like to see it I'm sure Daryll would be happy to provide the URL. His email address is DaryllB****

If anyone can demonstrate any connection between this information and the Earhart disappearance, please point it out and I'll be happy to post it.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:00:32 EST
From:         Forest Blair
Subject:      Rawaki

Have a National Geographic Magazine map which indicates Rawaki is the name for the separate island formerly known as Phoenix between Enderbury and Sydney (Manra) in the Phoenix Islands group.  The map names all the other islands including Nikumaroro.

Forest #2149

****************************************************************

From Ric

Aha!  Looks like somebody took the I-Kiribati name for Phoenix Island and mistakenly applied it to the entire archipelago.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:07:48 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      FN's relatives

Earlier there was some talk on the forum about finding living descendants of FN and AE to get DNA samples for a match in the event TIGHAR comes up with some unidentified bones in Kiribati or where ever. While AE has living family, FN apparently does not.

Well!  Here's your solution . . .based on the forum's "blaming exercise" that been going on for the past week or so.  Get some hotshot lawyer to file a class action (the "class" being FN's survivors) against AE's survivors, the U.S. Coast Guard, the FAA (old CAB), Lockheed (thank God they are still around), Pratt and Whitney, Hamilton-Standard, and a few others.  The charges would be willful misconduct, misrepresentation, defective equipment, malfeasance, incompetence yadda, yadda, yadda leading to the unlawful death of FN.  The claim would be for $250 million or so for pain and suffering, loss of affection, (more yaddas, here), and then we'll see who crawls out of the woodwork.

Hey, we may as well get some practical use out of time we spent trying to fix blame for this accident.

How about it, all you legal eagles, anybody up for a nice 10-15-year class action suit on contingency?

LTM, who has known survivors
Dennis McGee #0149

*****************************************************************
From Ric

At which point the Earhart family countersues under the hey-who-was-the-navigator? defense.  Let's just have both families sue the Japanese government which will force them to fund our finding of the airplane on Niku as their defense.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:54:45 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: FN's relatives

The way things have been going with the Japanese economy, they'd probably just declare bankruptcy.

But hey, to get out of it, maybe they'd just give the airplane back! (if that sounded garbled, it's because I have a hard time talking with my tongue stuck that far into my cheek...)
LTM
jon
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:56:34 EST
From:         Bill Carter
Subject:      Re: FN's relatives

Since my only client is a large corporation and moon lighting is prohibited (pro bono work is not), I am going to have to decline your offer to litigate.  Rest assured, that such a lawsuit will be in good company at the courthouse and I'm sure will get the attention it deserves.  One of my personal favorites was a lawsuit against "Satan and his minions" for causing the Plaintiff's economic ruin.  At first I thought the Plaintiff was referring to lawyers.  In its written opinion, the court dismissed the suit after carefully considering whether it had jurisdiction over the prince of darkness and how such a being would be served with a summons.

Perhaps though, I can offer a few suggestions:

1)  It's obvious to me that someone must be guilty of grave desecration if in fact the retrieved bones were AEs.  To the extent a culprit can't be found, the relatives of every person who ever lived or visited Nikumaroro may have to be named as defendants (present company excluded).

2)  The United States Navy bears some responsibility under a negligence theory for not conducting a more thorough search (although I guess in theory we're glad they didn't)

3)   Ric, I like your idea but the real cause of action against the Japanese government is for starting a war or creating a hostile environment which hampered and or delayed the search effort and led to the loss or destruction of evidence which would have solved this mystery years ago.

************************
From Pat

Well, let's see, I guess we can file in the World Court in Brussels.....Surely you'll take this on as a donation? for the sheer glory and grandeur of the experience?

Oh.

Well, I guess we'll have to give that idea up then <G>.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:57:02 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Re: Whose Fault?

I guess that I opened a can of worms when I started all of this "Who's fault is it?" To Vern and now Suzanne and others who have responded to my mentioning "fault", I would like to take you back to my original statement on 1/18/99. I said, quote, "Does it really matter who was responsible for getting the flight lost? NO, but it SEEMS that the blame always ends up on Fred's shoulders", unquote (highlites added). I mentioned this after reading over three hundred messages posted from 12/22 thru 1/10 over a three day period. There were a lot of people that were discussing how Fred did this and that and got the flight lost. I guess that the statement was my feeble attempt to help people realize that there were two people involved in the flight and any "fault" would surely be shared. I agree with Ric that they ended up close to Howland but probably ended up on Niku.

Anyone that thinks that this "fault" discussion is way off the subject probably hasn't been on the Forum for very long! There have been some really weird things talked about in the 4 months that I have been on it and when Ric (with his ultimate sense of timing!) decides we are off course, he'll let us know with the 'ol "electronic whip".
LTM
Gary Moline

*********************

Or <evil chuckle> Pat will, in her capacity as Forum Leader Pro Tem While Ric Writes the Eighth Edition.....

I guess TIGHAR's official position is that it takes a lot of people to screw up this bad. Everyone gets their fair share of fingers pointed, and in the end, it doesn't make a lot of difference.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:57:13 EST
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Whose Fault?

Blame, we don't need no blankety blank blame.  We had a very risky undertaking. Just the weather they would encounter around the world was hazardous enough and very likely to bring the flight down.  More thorough knowledge of the radio would have been a definite plus, but this type of radio was fairly new and those instructing Ms. Earhart could have given poor or inadequate instruction or?  Who knows.  She attempted a difficult undertaking, whether to advance science or for personal glory - who knows.  If they found the line from Howland to Niku, which our evidence seems to bear out, they did good - darn good.  They relied on the Coasties to find them, which would have been done very quickly if the Coasties and also followed the line of position and visited each of those islands immediately.  Not fly overs mind you, but putting shore parties in to physically search for them.

Just my 2 cents worth.

LTM
Dave Bush
#2200
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:57:21 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: PanAm history

Since PAA had the only airmail contract from the US to Manila and China, who else but PAA would carry classified mail in a hurry?  Sure, you could use ships to carry the mail, but that takes much longer.  PAA was slapped on the wrist a number of times by the Navy regarding allowing personnel and passengers to take photos at Honolulu, Wake, Midway, etc.  There were discussions between PAA, USCG, Navy, and others involved in coordinating search and rescue missions using joint radio surveillance.  These discussions were classified (restricted), but there was nothing more in them than that.  In fact, it seemed that there were several meetings over a couple of years, resulting in what is politely called "stonewalling".  Nothing seriously resulted during these meetings, of which minutes are available at the National Archives in San Bruno. CA.

******************

Thanks, Randy.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:57:31 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Whose Fault?

I regret that my recent comments have been interpreted to indicate that I believe the failure to reach Howland was Amelia's fault... That she was to blame.  This is not at all the case.  I'll not belabor the matter further. I see no relevance to solving the mystery.  Nor is it a very interesting subject for discussion.

******************

Well, I think we can all agree on that last statement.... This is The Last Post on this subject. I think we've worn it out.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:57:37 EST
From:         Suzanne
Subject:      Basic Navigation Information Request

I would like to understand the rudiments of navigation as practiced by pilots in the '30 so I can appreciate the many entries about same in the Forum. Would you or some other Forum member be able to suggest such a basic text for me?

Thank you in advance,
Best regards,
Suzanne T 2184

********************

Randy?  :-)

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:04:26 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Sweet Bobby Burns

Ah, now I know why the forum is so quiet today . . .Jan. 25th is the birthday of Robert "Sweet Bobby" Burns (1759-1796) poet laureate of Scotland.  Had he lived, he would have been 240 years old yesterday.

Undoubtedly, our esteemed executive director was attending a local "Burns Dinner" in his hero's honor.

See, everything has a logical answer in the world of chaos; there are no conspiracies.

LTM, who ate haggis, once!
Dennis Orin Michael McGee, #0149

**********************

Trust an Irishman..... It's Robbie, not Bobby, Dennis. <G>

Alas, what with flu and TIGHAR and so on and so on.... we had our drams at home. And NO haggis, thank you very much indeed. But Ric did play some bagpipe music on the CD player.

Pat, who on Burns Night rather wishes her parents had named her Elspeth or Morag.... but only on Burns Night.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:55:48 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Connections:

Ric said,

>If anyone can demonstrate any connection between this information and
>the Earhart disappearance, please point it out and I'll be happy to post
>it.

Yes, I would like to try.

First I would like the Forum members to know that I would be happy to forward the remainder of my posting to them, that's what is nice about the internet, no Cost no Waste.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. The Forum exists as an attempt to research the disappearance of AE/FN. If that is correct, then it is my belief that you must view the disappearance as a whole. Taking into consideration the Geo-political situtation at the time.

To research the disappearance, you must take want you are given. If you believe that you have not been given complete information due to other motives, then you must find other resources to verify a thesis.

This might appear off-topic, but recently on PBS's NOVA, there was a program titled, "Submarines, Secrets, and Spies". On that program they showed how the Navy was able to locate two lost subs. One was the Scorpion lost (in 1968?) in the Atlantic and the other was a Russian sub in the Pacific (1970's ?). These Subs were located in the vast ocean by triangulation of sonar signatures from underwater listening posts. Granted, that this is current technology, but simular technology existed in 1937, in the form of HF/DF.

The Army had a HF/DF R.I. station on Corregidor, the Navy had HF/DF R.I. stations in the Pacific ( Dutch Harbor, Hawaii, Guam, Cavite, Samoa, possiblely some mobile units that were ship based) and Pan Am had HF/DF navigational(?) stations in the Pacific, not to mention what the British and the Dutch had. The publicly acknowleged stations were Pan Am's (Oakland,Hawaii,Midway,Wake,Guam and Manila) stations. Pan Am's station on Midway, I understand, reported a "post lost" transmission with a bearing, Nauru Radio reported a "post lost" transmission with out a bearing. Were there any R.I. stations tracking AE/FN's flight? No bearings reported from the Howland Island HF/DF? I posted a secret Navy (1942) memo that stated that a survey of the R.I.(radio intelligence) network in the Pacific was conducted in 1937. Is this a case where the "message can not be revealed because it would reveal the messenger".

During WWII, Churchill would not let his field commanders, including Montgomery, use Ultra (radio intelligence) infomation with out developing a cover story to explain where the information came from. The same, I believe, would hold true for the practice in the U.S.

When I submit a posting to the Forum, it might reveal my thoughts on a certain thesis, I don't intend to convert anyone. I do hope that if someone else who is doing research that it might cause them to be more observant when they are looking for pieces to their puzzle.

I guess I've wasted enough of these precious ELECTRONIC words.

Your turn.

Daryll
*****************************************************************

From Ric

The electronic words are cheap - often way too cheap.  What is precious is the time of the subscribers to this forum.  I make the assumption that they are here to share in our investigation of the Earhart disappearance.  If they want to study the history of Pan American or the history of covert operations before and during the Second World War that's fine, but unless some connection can be shown to the Earhart disappearance these topics are off-topic and not appropriate for inclusion on this forum.

That the government of the United States has in the past, and still does, engage in secret operations is not in dispute.  If experiments were being conducted in HF/DF at the time Earhart disappeared, that does not make her part of those experiments.  Similarly, in June of 1937 the Air Corps was conducting flight tests on the XC-35, an experimental, pressurized version of the Lockheed 10.  That does not mean that Earhart's world flight was part of those tests.

Show me some connection - any connection - with Earhart and we'll be happy to follow this trail.  Otherwise, we won't.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:35:52 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Burns and pipes

This is my last off-topic missive today . . .  To set the record straight: bagpipes are Irish in origin, not Scottish.  But in the spirit of Celtic brotherhood, I am pleased to allow our cousins from The Lesser Island celebrate Robert Burns' birthday with bagpipes.  A dram for the piper, sir.

Perhaps had our friends Ms. Earhart and Mr. Noonan had a set that day in July of 1937 they may have had a proper chance of being heard at Howland -- even from Niku!

LTM, whose own pedigree is checkered
Dennis McGee #0149

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Actually, I think that it was somebody somewhere in the Middle East circa 2,000 B.C. who first figured out that you could sew up a sheep's stomach, attach a drone pipe and a chanter, inflate the thing, and make everyone's life misreable with endless renditions of Amazing Grace and Scotland The Brave.

And just to affirm that this is not off-topic:

It is a little known fact that the ONLY reason the storm-tossed Niku III expedition survived at all is because we sailed out of Suva harbor to the accompaniment of the only two pipers in Fiji. (They did NOT play either of the two above mentioned tunes.)

Luv tae mither,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:40:55 EST
From:         Bill Carter
Subject:      Re: Connections

Ric - I suspect that AE and perhaps FN, like many prominent Americans, has a file at the FBI.  Have you or any member of the Forum requested a copy under the Freedom of Information Act?  If so, were any documents withheld for "national security" or other reasons?

-Bill Carter, attorney
*****************************************************************

From Ric

As I recall, Earhart's FBI file was recently made available on line and a separate inquiry turned up no file on Fred.

If I remember correctly, Earhart's file contains mostly responses to allegations from the conspiracy crowd dating from the 1960s.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:52:14 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Shoe sizes

Okay gang, here's another question that has come up in the course of working on the 8th Edition of the Project Book.

The subject is quantifying shoe sizes.

What is the length - in centimeters - of an American woman's size:
6?
6 1/2?
7?
7 1/2?
8?
8 1/2?
9?

And here's the tricky part.  Have these measurements changed since 1937?  In other words, is a present day size 8 shoe the same length as a 1937 size 8 shoe?  Dig into Gramma's closet and see what you can find.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:49:47 EST
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: shoe sizes

Re: shoe sizes - Wouldn't the folks who ID'd the heel have that info, especially the 1930's part of it?

Blue skies, -jerry

**************************
The people at Biltrite didn't address that question, and we aren't still in touch with them. (Alas)

Don't the Armed Forces collect tons of data on sizes and measurements, the better to prepare uniforms that don't quite fit? Could someone pursue this?

LTM
Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:49:38 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Shoe sizes

Oh, Ric, you are a masochist.  Shoe sizes?  This I believe will be a frustrating search.  As most of us have learned the hard way, shoe sizes vary by manufacturer: personally, some times I take a 13 and other times a 12.5, and rarely a 12.

I suspect the best you'll get along these lines is a range, i.e. "Size 6," from X to Y centimeters in length.

Best of luck.

LTM, who wears only flats
Dennis McGee #0149
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:50:15 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Basic Navigation Information Request

Weems wrote a few monographs about aerial navigation.  Chichester did as well, and he was the one who posited the LOP gambit for finding an island.

For myself, I was trained in ship navigation (using old-fashioned satellites with large errors) and adapted that to aerial navigation after learning about how to do celestial fixes.  There is nothing magical to any of it, particularly after examining and reconstructing existing FN/AE navigational charts.

********************

Suzanne, if you live anywhere where this a university with a library that the public can use, try going there and checking under Weems for navigation texts. You might also check around and see if, perhaps, there are books on sailing for the layman--they might have basic navigational techniques as well.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:50:04 EST
From:         Dave G
Subject:      No Subject

I have some info on the shoe sizes you requested.

I have in my military shoe collection two pairs of W. A. C.  Blucher style service shoes that are representative of shoe construction of the late 30s and early 40's. Here are the dimensions you requested.

Size 7.5 AA : Heel to toe 27.5 centimeters. This shoe is new with a NU-Life heel
and rubber composite sole.

Size 8.5 C :  Heel to toe 28.5 centimeters. This shoe is used and has Good Year heel and all leather sole.

Hope this helps

Dave
*******************

Dave, this is great. Very very good stuff. One thing it tells us is that shoe sizing has not changed much in relationship to actual measurement. Thanks.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:50:31 EST
From:         Suzanne T.
Subject:      FBI File on AE

You're correct - one can view the Earhart file at www.fbi.gov. I did and there was nothing of significance.

LTM,
Suzanne T #2184
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:49:57 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: PanAm history

Randy Jacobson wrote:

> Since PAA had the only airmail contract from the US to Manila
> and China, who else but PAA would carry classified mail in a
> hurry?  Sure, you could use ships to carry the mail, but that
> takes much longer.

Today, very frequently, civilian aircraft are used to transport classified materials (an escort is on board). In fact, it was not uncommon for USAF personnel (usually single, non-family types) to volunteer to be listed as couriers (a short training program, etc.) for the potential travel opportunity. This way, the courier could combine the courier mission with a vacation at the other end. You could get to Frankfurt, for instance, without having to worry about the vagaries and unpredicted nature of Space A travel.

Now, I raise this to point out that just because classified information may travel on a commercial airliners from time to time or even frequently without any real involvement of the airline. I cannot say for sure if this was also the case in days past, but I cannot imagine that much has changed. In short, the US Dept of State doesn't have its own airline.

Now, to return you to the Earhart mystery, what I am trying to say is that just because Pan Am carried classified documents for the US Government doesn't mean that there is some sort of conspiracy. In fact, I would warrant a guess that probably almost every reputable US-based airline carried USG classified documents from time to time or even quite frequently.

To make the point, just because American Airlines carried classified USDS or DoD documents from time to time in 1960 and 1961 doesn't mean that they were involved in the Bay of Pigs planning and attempts to assassinate Fidel.

That is just how the system works today and, probably (and somebody may be able to provide conclusive information as I don't have it) -- probably, how it used to be as well. It doesn't require some sort of covert, clandestine agreement to serve in this regard, just some rather routine approvals and a review of the airline's books; then an approved courier can ride on the plane and carry... well, I can't tell you what they carry....

Thomas Van Hare
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:50:37 EST
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: Shoe sizes

Ric wrote:-

>Okay gang, here's another question that has come up in the course of
>working on the 8th Edition of the Project Book.
>The subject is quantifying shoe sizes.
>What is the length - in centimeters - of an American woman's size:

One thought that's just struck me - I can't remember what Gallagher said about the shoe pieces he found, but if he described a size, don't forget that he would be describing British shoe sizes, not U.S.


LTM
Simon #2120

*********************

Gallagher describes the shoes as women's shoes, and thought they were about size 10---which would be huge. You can't find women's shoes in size 10 at Marks and Sparks. However, Steenson (the Medical Officer for the Gilbert and Ellice Islands colony, who happened to be in Fiji and looked at the shoes) was quite sure that the shoe parts were one each from two pairs of shoes, a man's and a woman's, which could cause a person to get in a tangle over size.

I just bought a pair of clogs that are Danish, and they are sized very differently--I wear an 8, mostly <G> and these clogs are size 38. Ric and Kenton's impression in England, on checking all this, is that English sizes are different than American and that it is a continuum--instead of having separate sizing for men and women, it's a straight line.

American shoes are sized separately. A man's size 8 is about the same as a woman's size 10 in the U.S.

A UK size 8 is 27.7 cm (remember, this is unisex). A UK size 6 is 26.5 cm. That's the same as a Canadian size 7. My riding boots are 25.75 cm, and my clogs are 25.5. I put my foot into the tracings Ric did in England of the various sizes, and all of them were too big, even the size 6, which I was sure would be the case; my memory is that I wear about a size 5 in UK sizing, for all my size 8 hooves here.

All of which is largely irrelevant. What we have is the shoe parts we found on Niku, and the photo of Earhart standing on the airplane wing in Bandoeng. Both of these can be measured, and have been found to be the same.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:50:24 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: 1921 pilot License Requirements

Dick Pingrey wrote:

>His pilot certificate was issued by
>the International Pilot's Federation (or what ever it was called at that
>time) and it was signed by Orville Wright.

My God... I'd give my left... pinkie to have something, anything, that was signed by Orville Wright.

Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:02:11 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Shoe sizes

> I just bought a pair of clogs that are Danish, and they are sized very
> differently--I wear an 8, mostly <G> and these clogs are size 38.

All European (and many Middle Eastern and Asian) sizes are listed like that, not just English -- I wear something like a Size 42 European, which equates to something like a 10 1/2 American. The problem with this discussion is that I don't think any of us know when that standard went into effect.

Also, and I believe that everyone in this forum has had this experience, sometimes I fit into a size 10, sometimes into a size 11, but usually I am a 10 1/2. The standard varies between manufacturers, which is why you always have to try shoes on. Thus, when you say that Amelia wore a size 8 1/2 (was that the number?), that could be quite a range by today's measurement -- some companies 8 1/2 shoes may actually fit better on a woman's foot that is really size 9 1/2 (in women's shoes, they typically try to make the buyer think that their feet are smaller than they are for marketing reasons -- after all, who wants big feet? The same is true for dresses, as most women will tell you -- you might actually be a size 6, but when you try on the size 4 dress and it fits, you're more likely to buy it, even though you've been had).

Bottom line - I echo Pat's sentiments that the only thing that will matter will be the true measurements of the shoe itself, not its reported shoe size.

Thomas Van Hare
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:02:40 EST
From:         Barb Norris
Subject:      Name That Plane

Thought I'd share a bit of fun and educational airplane trivia that I recently found on the Discovery Channel website (www.discovery.com).  If you go to the site and select Mind Games, there is a section called Name That Plane.  Each week they display a small portion of an airplane that you are asked to identify.  Great way to get kids involved and/or test your own expertise.

In reference to kids and education, thanks to all of you who have generously offered your time and talents with the NSF grant proposal.  I'm still in the organizational stages and appreciate all of the feedback I've gotten so far.

Blue skies,
Barbara Norris
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:02:03 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Shoe sizing

There is a comparison chart of sizes at

http://www.classicpumps.com/sizes.com which compares womens' sizes in US, UK, European (metric), etc.  Also, there is a chart which compares American mens' and womens' sizes with metric at http://www.lookcyclesusa.com/look_siz.htm [note there is an underline _ between look and siz.htm (ie: /look_siz.htm)].  Also, I have an email out to the BATA Shoe Museum in Toronto (apparently the only shoe museum in captivity in North America) inquiring on whether or not sizes have changed between 1937 and now.  I'll report as soon as I hear anything.
LTM,
jon
ps - At last, my membership check is in the mail!

*************************

OK, everyone go have a look and tell us how much discrepancy there is <G>. I will too. Thanks Jon, this is just what we needed. Thanks for the membership, too!

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:02:46 EST
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Jimmie Angel

I know this is off (Earhart) topic, but it is aviation history related so I hope you'll all forgive me.  In any case, several years ago I was at a party where someone mentioned visiting the wreck of Jimmie Angel's (discoverer of Angel Falls) plane in the jungles of Venezuela.  Presumably this was the Flamingo he crash-landed and abandoned atop Auyantepui Mountain in 1937.  I think they said it was later recovered, but I'm not sure.  Anybody out there know the real story?

  Thanks and LTM
  Russ
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:02:52 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Shoe sizes

In the shoe-size for what it's worth department, shoe sizes are conventionally measured with a "Brannock Measuring Device", which, according to a couple internet sources, was patented in 1926; thus it would seem that sizes in 1937 should be the equivalent to today.
LTM,
jon
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:02:57 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: PanAm history

Tom Van Hare writes:

> Today, very frequently, civilian aircraft are used to transport
> classified materials (an escort is on board).....

Well stated!  I have even carried classified material on my official travels.  Don't tell anyone, however, or I might have to be killed (or disappear in a mysterious fashion!).
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:02:27 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Re: shoe sizes

Visited a local shoe store and used "The Brannock Device" into which women place a foot to get their shoe size.  Left and right are equal.  Basic: size 6 is 9 inches long, size 9 is 10 inches so each half size increases by 1/6-inch.  Converting to centimeters:

    Size            CM

    6              22.86
    6.5            23.283
    7              23.707
    7.5            24.13
    8              24.553
    8.5            24.976
    9              25.4

Store manager thinks U.S. sizes  have not changed since 1937.  I'll try to check further on this.

Looks like we're playing with itsy-bitsy differences!

LTM
Bill Moffet #2156
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:03:02 EST
From:         George Hussey
Subject:      Earhart's Last Transmission

I just read that NPR is broadcasting a series, starting friday, on the sounds of the century, including Amelia's last radio transmission. I did not know that her last transmission was recorded, did you?

*******************

It was not. Anything you hear will be a re-enactment. Ric advised them on some points concerning what it should sound like, should they care to hire an actress and do a re-enactment. If they don't make it clear that it's a re-enactment, they'll hear about it from us.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:02:34 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Re: shoe sizes

Ok, what The Brannock Device gives is inside measurements.   Outside will no doubt depend on the manufacturer.   I see that DaveGee5 gave outside measures on 2 sizes of Blucher-style oxfords within your range.  The outside length of size 7.5 is 3.37 cm over my inside length.  Diff on size 8.5 is 3.524 cm, pretty close.  Maybe close enuf (for 'gummint work?) to add +/- 3.45 cm to my numbers to come up with outside no's for all 6 sizes?  By the way,
http://home.nycap.rr.com/useless/brannock/brannock_device.html tells us that the Device was patented in 1927 by Chas. B. who worked in his dad's Syracuse shoe store.  Beyond a doubt his measuring device agreed with the sizes of that time and the implication is they have not changed since.  The site has data on men's sizes and the various widths and says, "Today, the Device is standard for the industry" and as I noted the scales are linear. 

LTM who may have worn Army shoes
Bill Moffet #2156
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:37:53 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      AE & HF/DF

>If experiments were being conducted in HF/DF at the time Earhart
>disappeared, that does not make her part of those experiments.

Ric I don't understand what you are saying here ?

1.  Are you saying HF/DF radio equipment was considered standard aircraft radio equipment in 1937 ?

OR

2. Are you saying AE did not have HF/DF radio equipment on board the aircraft ?

If No.2,  then there is evidence that she did by the messages sent before the take off from Lea, and her own in flight transmissions.

Itasca sent this to AE on or about 6/30/37

ITASCA WILL TRANSMIT LETTER A WITH CALL LETTERS REPEATED TWICE END EVERY MINUTE ON HALF HOUR AND HOUR ON 7.5 MEGACYCLES WILL BROADCAST VOICE ON 3105 KCS ON REQUEST OR START WHEN WITHIN RANGE PERIOD

The only reason I can think of to transmit the letter A with call letters is for a homing device, a DF direction finder. I believe 7.5 megacycles = 7500 kcs which is HF high frequency. Put them together and you have HF/DF.

Itasca Primary Radio Log entry for 07:58 a.m. July 2, 1937

KHAQQ CLNG ITASCA WE ARE CIRCLING BUT CANNOT HR U GA ON 7500 WID A LNG COUNT EITHER NOW OR ON THE SKD TIME ON 1/2 HOUR (KHAQQ S5 A3) 0758

KHAQQ CLNG ITASCA WE RECD WE UR SIGS BUT UNABLE TO GET A MINIMUM PSE TAKE BEARING ON US AND ANS 3105 WID VOICE / NRUI DE KHAQQ LNG DASHES ON 3105 -/ NRUI2 DE NRUI P AR 0800-3

Both of these transmissions from AE seem to confirm that she did have a HF/DF radio and that she heard the Itasca on 7500 kcs but could not get a minimum.

One last question.

I thought NRUI was used to identify the Itasca.

Can you explain: (2) following NRUI and the rest of the radio code that followed?

-/ NRUI2 DE NRUI P AR 0800-3

Thanks
Daryll
*****************************************************************

From Ric

There is no question that Earhart asked Itasca to send signals on 7500 upon which she intended to take DF bearings.  What is not known is whether this was a reasonable request goven the DF equipment she had aboard.  If her only receiver was the WE20B, then it was a major error for her request that frequency because, although it was within the bandwidth she could receive, it was far too high for DFing.  If she had another receiver aboard the aircraft with HF homing capability, it still seems very odd that she would ask for signals on such a high frequency.  Why not establish your position with a good, ol' reliable low frequency bearing before conducting tests on an experimental high frequency?  Heck of a place to conduct an experiment.  It is also apparent that she only tried to DF on Itasca after her attempt to get them to DF on her failed.  And if she did have an HF/DF capable of homing on 7500, as you suggest, why was she unable to get a minimum?

Everything points to Earhart's request for signals on 7500 being a gross misunderstanding on her part of the limitations of her equipment.

>Can you explain: (2) following NRUI and the rest of the radio code that
>followed?
>
>-/ NRUI2 DE NRUI P AR 0800-3

NRUI2 was the call sign for the HF/DF on Howland.
DE means "from"
NRUI is Itasca's call sign
P can mean "priority" but that doesn't make much sense in this context.
AR means "end of message"
800-3 means that the preceding message came in between 0800 and 0803

This seems to be a message from Itasca to Howland asking if he was getting these long dashes on 3105.

Immediately after this message, (at 0804) NRUI2 replied that he was receiving no signals on 3105 and that it was "impossible to work."

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:38:11 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      On-Topic Questions

Just watched the History Channel AE special again and it raised a few questions in my tiny little mind. (From Ric:  I'll answer Gary's questions as we go.)

1) In her message to GP just before leaving Lae, AE said something about "personnel unfitness" and most people assumed that meant that FN was hitting the bottle again. But, didn't AE have a stomach ailment that was bothering her? Could she have been talking about herself?

(We have no evidence of any ailment or "unfitness" of either AE or Fred while they were in Lae. AE had a couple of minor bouts of stomach trouble earlier in the flight - once due to gasoline fumes in the cabin and once due to spicy local food - but nothing in Lae.  What she meant by "personnel unfitness" is an unknown.)

2) What is your gripe with Linda Finch? When she made her flight, did she fly from Lae to Howland? What's on Howland now?

(I have no gripe with Linda Finch.  I've never met the woman and she never did anything to me or to TIGHAR.  As I understand it, Finch flew from Tarawa to Kanton and then backtracked to fly over Howland in a separate flight that returned to Kanton.  She then flew to Hawaii via Christmas Island.  She, or more accurately her crew, never flew any leg remotely approaching the lengths that Earhart and Noonan flew.

3) The TV special showed some interior shots that I suppose were the L-10. What was the cabin layout? Could they move from the cockpit to the aft section of the cabin? Did FN make his nav shots from the side windows only?

(We don't know what the cabin layout was for the second world flight attempt but it's clear that although crawling over the tops of the fuselage fuel tanks was a bit awkward, they could move freely about entire aircraft interior.  We don't have any direct evidence about where Fred took his sightings from, but according to Earhart's mechanic Bo McKneely, he took most of them form the copilot's seat where he usually rode.)

4) Is there a web site that has the radio transcripts on it?

(No.  There is a CD available from TIGHAR.)

5) What was GP's response to the LTM telegram? Did he know who it was from?

(His only response was to correct his mailing address and ask that he be informed of anything further.  There is no indication that he knew who it was from.)

6) Has Ty Sundstrom done any more research on the piece of wire that you all found on Niku?

(No.  Ty was not able to provide any helpful documentation on the cable.  Mike Everette has had much better success and is till working on it.)

7) How about the post flight radio messages that were supposedly heard days after the flight? Didn't one radio reception (Oakland?) have a bearing on the radio transmission but the others didn't? If it did have a bearing on it, does it cross Niku?

(I can't begin to address the issue of post-loss radio messages here.  It's a huge, complex, and ultimatley inconclusive avenue of investigation.  The 8th Edition of the project book will include a section on what is known but the bottom line is that Pan Am DF facilities on Oahu, Midway and Wake (not Oakland) took bearings on suspected signals, several of which appeared to intersect near Gardner Island.)

LTM
Gary Moline
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:50:15 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Shoe sizing

Well, it's a heal of a note that the BATA Shoe Museum is the sole shoe museum
in North America.  But I suppose one just has to take it in stride.

TKing
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:13:15 EST
From:         Cam Warren
Subject:      Jimmie Angel query

When I was living in Santa Barbara (1965-80) I recall that Angel's widow(?) also resided there and was interviewed by the SB News Press. You might try contacting them.

Cam Warren

**********************************************************

From Ric

Further responses to Russ's inquiry about Jimmie Angel can go directly to him at MatthewsRE@***
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:17:21 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Shoe sizing

Tom,
Oooh, I wish I'd said that...
LTM
jon

***************************************************************

From Gene Dangelo

Tom,
I'm had no idea that you're such a punster! When my eyes read your clever posting, in sole giddiness I had to bite my tongue! Did you by any chance study at Oxford? I thought that I'd heel over in stitches of laughter when I saw what you wrote. I have to admit, I really took a shine to it. I think, though, that you've just about laced up that topic; yes, you really polished it off. Well, I'd better march on out of here before I get the boot! I'd say that that just about sizes up what I had to say!

 Gene Dangelo   :)

***************************************************************

From Ric

Try spending a month locked up on a small boat with him.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:34:31 EST
From:         Daryll Bollinger
Subject:      Re AE&HF/DF

I was preparing to give my perspective to some of your questions in your response to my posting on this HF/DF thing. When I realized that I might be misunderstanding the research methods involved here.

Comparing your response today 1/28/99 and your response to me on 1/15/99 leaves me  bewildered. I thought I was gathering and assessing the available evidence.

Daryll

>You're not alone in deciding that Fred knew morse code despite the
>evidence to the contrary. There seem to be two ways of arriving at
>historical truth. One way is to gather and assess the available
>evidence. The other way is to just decide what it seems to you that the
>truth should be. We kind of lean toward the first way.  Love to mother,
>Ric

*****************************************************************

From Ric

I'm bewildered at your bewilderment.  The available evidence shows quite clearly that Earhart asked for signals on a frequency that was far higher than was commonly used for DFing at that time.  Neither of us knows for sure why she asked for signals on that frequency, so it becomes a matter of speculation.  You see it as evidence of a vast conspiracy.  I see it as a mistake.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:39:50 EST
From:         J. Burn
Subject:      Re: PanAm history

if  i  recall  clasified  material  is   sometimes sent as  regular  mail  in plain unmarked outer  envelope .

****************************************************************

From Ric

Actually, a special code phrase is used on the envelope.  It says "You May Have Already Won..."
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:44:39 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      New publication

Kenneth Feder, Forum subscriber and archeologist, has just published a new "Introductory Reader in Archaeology" entitled "Lessons from the Past."  It includes an article by Ric and me on The Quest (slightly dated, but I like it, anyway.  Other articles of possible interest to Forumers include one on Forensic Aviation Archaeology in the recovery of MIA remains in Viet Nam, and one on the archeological investigation of a woman chopped up in a wood chipper.  And we thought WE had problems!  Mayfield Publishing Co., Mountain View, CA, 1999.  Nice work, Kenny!

**************************************************************

From Ric

Wait a minute.  Wasn't that the rusted hulk of an old wood chipper we found in the village at Niku?
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:52:50 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      NY TIMES letter

On December 15, 1998 the New York times ran a half page article in its Science section entitled "Long-Lost Bones Offer Clues to Earhart Enthusiasts." On January 19, 1999 the paper published a letter from author Susan Butler ("East to the Dawn - the life of Amelia Earhart", 1997) in which she says, in part:

"Shortly after Amelia Earhart's plane disappeared into the blue (five days after, actually) the battleship Colorado "catapulted" from its deck to inspect Nikumaroro Island, McKean Island and Carondelet Reef.  They went there specifically because Amelia's husband, George Palmer Putnam, thought that these islands were a likely place for the plane to end up.  The pilots reported back that the only thing they saw were ruined guano works and the wreck of a tramp steamer.....

While as the author of "East to the Dawn - the life of Amelia Earhart" which came out last year, I welcome interest in the life of this extraordinarily brave human being, I find Richard Gillespie's claims less odd than the gravity with which they are taken.  I can only think that so many people are fascinated with Earhart that they will grasp at any straw to write finis to her life.

I do expect that someday the Electra will be found wherever it came to rest on the ocean floor...."

Ms. Butler's letter doesn't surprise me or bother me.  I mention it only as an illustration of what we've been talking about for a long time.  Here is someone who certainly should be an "Earhart expert" and yet says the Navy planes flew of Nikumaroro five days after Earhart disappeared (it was seven days) and that they searched there because Putnam thought it was a likely place (Putnam had nothing to do with the decision), and that all that was seen were "ruined guano works and the wreck of a tramp steamer" (the guano works were on McKean, the Norwich city was not a tramp steamer, and the Navy pilots saw "clear signs of recent habitation" at Nikumaroro). It is little wonder that Butler is puzzled by the gravity with which the public and the media regard TIGHAR's work.  This happens time and time again. We come out with news of a new piece of evidence.  The press reports on it but, always eager to provide "balance", they welcome the commentary of experts like Butler, or Tom Crouch, or Elgen Long or Rollin Reineck.  These people, of course, already have all the answers and pay little or no attention to any new information.  They are, however, happy to express their opinions.  And so it goes.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:22:50 EST
From:         EGK
Subject:      Re: NY TIMES letter

Good points ref. NY Times article.  Will you contact Ms. Butler with a polite note indicating her, uh... discrepancies?  Maybe you could convert her.
Best, EGK.
****************************************************************

From Ric

It's more likely that the Pope will embrace Presbyterianism. Butler's book endorses the official crashed-and-sank scenario and, in fact, writing the letter to the NYT got her a plug for the book.  She has too much at stake to be converted.

*****************************************************************
Ric - I agree.  Sloppy reporting.  Unfortunately, Butler's adopted an old Latin legal maxim:

"Presumtio ex eo quod plerumque fit" - Presumptions arise from what generally happens.

For purposes of solving this mystery, presumptions and generalizations just aren't good enough.  Objective scientific inquiry is the key to success.  -Bill Carter

******************************************************************

From Ric

It's kind of a shame because I rather like her book.  She provides more detail about Earhart's career than most biographers and much of it seems well documented.  She does tend to be easy on Amelia at times.  For example, in describing her 1932 flight to Ireland she claims that AE "made landfall exactly on the course Bernt Balchen had set for her." (page 270)  In truth, Balchen wanted her to come in over Dingle Bay on the southwest coast just as Lindbergh had done.  Earhart hit the extreme northwest coast at Donegal, some 200 miles off course.  Another fifty miles and she would have made landfall in Scotland.
But by and large, Butler's life of Earhart is not at all bad and ranks, in my
opinion, with Mary Lovell's "The Sound of Wings."

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:27:16 EST
From:         Ken Feder
Subject:      Re: New publication

Thanks Tom, for the kind words about my new book, Lessons From the Past, with an article by you and Ric on the AE quest.  Most of the folks on this forum know already know this but it bears repeating: Ric and Tom are enormously generous with their data and research. I did not know Ric and knew Tom only by reputation (used his cultural resource management book when I was in grad school [jeez, he must be old by now]. Nevertheless, I had but to ask if they might like to contribute to my book and they immediately agreed, putting together a wonderful piece that will now help turn on a cohort of university students both to archaeology and to the search for AE.

One more thing: Tom mentioned the woodchipper murder as one of the articles that might interest forum members [I assume because we are a perverse lot]. Actually, there is another reason: the murderer was a commercial pilot and the victim (his wife) was a flight attendant.

Thanks again, Tom.

Kenny Feder

****************************************************************

From Ric

Food for thought (and pets).
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:54:29 EST
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: NY TIMES letter

What I have found interesting, and disconcerting, is the amount of error in books and articles by so-called experts. Since I have started tracking Noonan, I've noted that many folks talk to three people, find a document, don't check out any of it, and call it the truth. My dad used to call that the "hit and a lick" approach. Hardly thorough. More interestingly, many have no interest in changing their inaccuracies and are also unwilling to help others further the investigation. I sent Ms. Butler a letter a year ago asking for any assistance in documenting Noonan's life. Of course, I never heard back. And I had even bought her book.

RE: Putnam and the Phoenix islands.

I don't know the degree to which he influenced the Navy search, but he certainly asked them to check the area. His telegram of July 6 (from COMSANFRANDIV. to COMHAWNSEC-ITASCA-COM14-COLORADO and COMDESRON2-COMDT USCG WASHN-COM12) reads in part:

"8006 Following from Putnam quote please note all radio bearings thus far obtained on Earhart plane approximately intersect in Phoenix Island region southeast of Howland island period Further line of position given by Noonan if based on Howland which apparently reasonable assumption also passes through islands period...Therefore suggested that planes from Colorado investigate Phoenix area as practicable unquote"

Blue skies, -jerry

*****************************************************************
From Ric

I know what you mean.  From the beginning of this project we have been astounded  at how much of the non-controversial, oft-repeated, accepted wisdom in the Earhart case is baloney.

It's probably not fair to say that Putnam had nothing to do with the decision to search the Phoenix Group. According to the official report written by the Colorado's captain, Wilhelm Friedell, the decision to search to the southeast of Howland was made the night July 2nd when various naval authorities met aboard the battleship in Honlulu and decided that stronger than normal winds had "probably carried the plane southeast of Howland."  By midnght on July 4th Friedell knew that the reported signals from the airplane meant that it had to be on land.  Putnam's request of July 6th is mentioned by Friedell and seems to have been one of many factors influencing the captain's decision to concentrate his search on the islands of the Phoenix Group, but it's clear from the report that the primary factor was the navigational logic of Earhart and Noonan having run down the line of position to find land.  The 157/337 line of position points like an arrow to Gardner Island.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:13 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Re AE&HF/DF

This posting may be too long.  If so, I apologize; but nevertheless, let's see if we can sort some things out.

What puzzles me, is the idea of AE asking for transmissions on HF upon which she -- aboard the aircraft -- could take a bearing.  Given the state of the art at the time, it was accepted practice in HF/DF for the aircraft to transmit, and the ground station to take a bearing.  The ground station, or stations in the case of a triangulated (criss-cross) bearing, would then transmit their results to the aircraft.  The navigator would plot his position based upon the reciprocal of the bearing(s) the station(s) gave him.

The Western Electric 20B receiver would, indeed, tune to 7500 KHz; but my analysis of the circuit does not indicate that this receiver could be used for DF on any of the high frequency bands (above 1500 KHz).  The radio had dual antenna input connections, one for the low frequency bands in the 180-1500 KHz range and the other for the high frequency bands from 1500 KHz and up.

It is conceivable that the low-frequency antenna input could have been connected to a loop antenna, or to a direction-finding adapter which itself might have the capability to switch from a loop (for DF) to a wire antenna for general LF reception.  The high-frequency antenna input would normally have been tied to a wire antenna, through the T/R relay in the transmitter.

Since the Western Electric transmitter was set up for 500 KHz, 3105 KHz and 6210 KHz, and the same antenna was used for all three frequencies, we must establish some possibilities about the antenna connections to the receiver:

1.  The low-and high- frequency antenna inputs to the WE 20B receiver may have been jumpered together, and then connected to the T/R relay in the transmitter, so that the same antenna -- the "dorsal Vee" -- was used for transmit and receive on all three frequencies.  This eliminates any possibility of using the 20B for direction finding;

                                         --OR --

2.  The high-frequency antenna input, only,  may have been tied to the "dorsal Vee" through the T/R relay, and the LF input tied directly to a second wire antenna on the belly of the aircraft.  This also eliminates any direction-finding use of the 20B;

                                        -- OR --

3.  The HF antenna input was as in (2), and the low-frequency antenna input of the 20B was permanently connected to a direction-finding loop antenna (rotatable type);

                                        -- OR --

4.  The HF input was as in (2), with the LF input tied to a DF adapter unit which was then connected to a loop.  If this is the case, a wire antenna on the belly would also be essential for DF purposes, to serve as a "sense" antenna which gives the DF adapter(or coupler) a reference signal to eliminate the "180-degree ambiguity" problem inherent with using a loop alone.  This wire "sense" antenna is also usable for general LF reception, when the loop is out of the circuit;

                                       -- OR --

5.  There was some other, unorthodox and nonstandard type of antenna-switching arrangement incorporated aboard this aircraft which, for some bizarre reason, would allow the HIGH-frequency antenna input to be connected to the same loop used for LF direction finding.

(Possibility #5 does not make good sense, because the possibility for confusion and error on the part of nontechnical operating personnel is very great.)

Notice that none of this gives the 20B any HF direction finding capability -- except some well-meaning but marginally-technically-literate soul might have thought that, by setting up (5), he might be able to include it.  From an engineering standpoint this does not make sense.

A loop antenna is not a very reliable device in an aircraft at high frequencies.  The reason is, that the metal structure and surface of the aircraft creates reflections of the incoming signal -- at ANY frequency -- which can and will create confusion about the exact direction of arrival of the signal.  At low frequencies this can be "compensated" for, mechanically and electrically.  This compensation consists of distorting the rate of rotation of the loop in certain parts of the compass circle, so that the APPARENT direction as displayed on the bearing indicator gives a more-or-less true heading even though, for instance, there may be a 10-degree error introduced by the wings or tail assembly.

At high frequencies the compensation problem of a loop becomes much more difficult because the actual physical size of the aircraft, in the case of something like a Lockheed 10E or larger, becomes a function of the wavelength of the signal.  A quarter-wavelength at 3105 KHz is about 75 feet; at 6210, about 38 feet; at 7500, about 30 feet (rough estimates; I did not take the time to compute actual lengths by formula).  The wingspan, the fuselage length, the length of the Vee antenna, all are nearly "resonant lengths" or some fraction thereof at these frequencies.  All will create reflections which introduce errors into a loop... MAJOR errors.  Given the state of the art in 1937, it does not seem logical to believe that such problems had been solved or at least minimized to a reasonable point... after all, even the LF radio compass was in its infancy, having made the scene in 1935 or so.  (Before this, "radio direction finding" in aircraft consisted of fixed loop antennas, so that keeping the aircraft pointed at the station caused a "null" in the pilot's headphones.  If the place you needed to fly to was right beside the station, that was fine; but if you needed to find a field located away from the station, there wasn't any way to fly a heading away from it to reach that point, maintaining a reference to the radio station.)

It also seems logical to assume that AE must have had two receivers: one for communications (probably the 20B), and another for navigation.  If you have only one receiver, and you are trying to listen for bearings on one frequency while talking to someone on another, you can't hear the answering communication.

What was the DF receiver she had?  Given the information at hand, it was most likely a Bendix RA-1.  This radio did not have any direction-finding capability in the HF bands.

If she was asking for signals on which to take bearings, on HIGH frequencies, one of several possibilities exists:

1. She did not know what she was doing;

2. She did not understand she couldn't get a bearing on these frequencies because she did not understand the limitations of her equipment;

3. She was actually asking for a bearing FROM the Itasca (i.e., that they take a bearing on her signal, and transmit the result back to her);

4. She was in a critical situation, and trying ANYTHING which might give her a result, even though the equipment was not designed to work in this manner;

5. She had some other equipment aboard the plane, about which we know nothing concrete but can only wildly speculate (not even reliably "deduce") at this point.

Based upon what I know or have seen evidence of, I do not believe AE had "the same DF setup as was on Howland" aboard her aircraft.  The antenna requirements alone rule that out completely and absolutely; and if the type of equipment on Howland was what I have seen evidence of, the stuff was way too user-unfriendly for operation aboard an aircraft in flight -- reliable or otherwise.

73
Mike E. #2194
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:09:19 EST
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Jimmie Angel's Airplane

Jimmie Angel's airplane was a St. Louis Metal Airplane Company airplane (I don't recall the model but could probably find it).  The airplane is kept at the Venezuela Airforce Museum about an hours drive from Caracas (I don't recall the name of the city).  I saw the airplane at the museum about 20 years ago when there on a Pan Am flight layover.  As I understand the story, Angel had to make a forced landing on the high mountain top near Angel Falls, the airplane was essentially undamaged but it could not be flown out.  It sat on the mountain top for many years (until the 1950s I think) when it was picked up by a large helicopter and brought to the museum where it is displayed, essentially as found.  It looks like you could get in, fire up the engine, and fly away.  The airplane is four place high wing cabin craft with a radial engine (probably a wright J-4 or J-5).

More information should be available from the Venezuelan Airforce Museum if any one wants to contact them.

Dick Pingrey 0908C
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:36:23 EST
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Followup to AE and HF/DF

The following is to answer DarrylB's questions in his January 26 posting, and to clarify points of my earlier message today.

Darryl asked Ric, if HF/DF radio equipment was considered standard aircraf radio equipment in 1937.

The answer to this is No.  HF/DF wasn't even carried in World War II aircraft, unless of course it was for some special purpose -- if even then, for I have never located any specifics on such gear for airborne use.  The standard type of airborne direction-finding navigation radio was the low- and medium-frequency radio range receiver, and the radio compass (automatic or manual), until VHF Omni Range (VOR) came into use during the late 40s or early 50s.

In fact, even the B-29 bomber force in the Pacific still relied greatly on 500 KHz as a distress frequency.  HF/DF was used in the Pacific theater, but without exception, the aircraft REQUESTED bearings FROM A GROUND STATION. The aircraft did not take bearings on a signal from a fixed transmitter.  (A good reference on this is the book, "How to Fly the B-29 Superfortress," subtitled "The Official Manual for the Plane that Bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki."  This is a reprint of the combat crew training manual used by the B-29 force in the Pacific -- not the pilot's manual.  The book was prefaced by Jeffrey Ethell.  It has a very complete and enlightening section covering the radio operator, his equipment, his duties, and much, much info on operating procedures including the operation of the Pacific DF Net.)

Darryl also asked if Ric was saying that AE did not have HF/DF equipment aboard her aircraft.

I can't answer for Ric; but I outlined in my previous message why I myself do not believe she did... at least, based upon knowledge of the state of the radio art in 1937, and the knowledge we can confirm about her aircraft and its equipment.

Darryl listed a number of excerpts from the Itasca radio log, which he believes point to her having such equipment.  He said, he could not think of a reason for Itasca to transmit a single morse letter followed by call sign, unless it was for purposes of AE taking a bearing on the signal.

I disagree.  A good reason for this form of transmission is to simply provide a readily recognizable, repeated signal which can easily be found by someone having to "hunt" for it -- that is, with a tunable (not fixed channel) radio receiver.

I do not agree (yet) that such a signal, plus 7500 KHz, equals HF/DF.

The only questionable point raised by Darryl's log excerpts is the one about "rec'd ur sigs but unable to get a minimum."  This does not absolutely say to us that AE was trying to get a minimum ("null" or a directional indication) on Seventy Five Hundred!  She might have been trying to listen on 400 KHx, for example, using her DF receiver (radio compass) for the Itasca to send her a signal to home in upon... and was unable to get a null on THAT frequency.

Yes, she may have known there was an HF/DF setup on Howland, and so asked Itasca to take a bearing on HER transmissions on 3105 or even 6210. The Itasca would have then given her their bearing on her signal.  AE would fly the reciprocal of that course to reach Howland.  Apparently, though, the HF/DF setup on the island had eaten its batteries by the time it was really needed, and they were unable to give her the info she needed.

Simply because the Itasca transmitted on 7500 KHz at one point does not necessarily mean that AE was trying to take a bearing upon that frequency.

Of course, there may be things we do not yet know about this whole affair. But that doesn't always mean conspiracy or government complicity.

Hope this helps.

73
Mike E.

****************************************************************

Mike,

Here are the Itasca log entries which seem to refer to DFing.  How do you interpret what's going on?

0614 local time
WANTS BEARING ON 3105 KCS // ON HOUR // WILL WHISTLE IN MIC
ABOUT TWO HUNDRED MILES OUT // APPX // WHISTLING // NW

(Note:  Earhart is using Greenwhich time and to her the time is 17:45, so when she says she wants a bearing ON HOUR she means in 16 minutes.  Itasca, using local time despite having asked and being told that Earhart would use Greenwich, thinks she doesn;t want the bearing for another three quarters of an hour.)

0645 local time
PSE TAKE BEARING ON US AND REPORT IN HALF HOUR --
I WILL MAKE NOISE IN MIC

(Note:  Earhart's procedure is to transmit at quarter to and quarter past the hour and listen for messages on the hour and half hour.  To Earhart the time is 18:15.  She wants the bearing ON the half hour in 15 minutes, not IN half hour at a time when she is scheduled to be transmitting, not listening.)

0758 local time
KHAQQ CLNG ITASCA  WE ARE (LISTENING?) BUT CANNOT HEAR U  GA ON 7500 WID A LNG
COUNT EITHER NW OR ON THE SKD TIME ON HALF HOUR

(Note: At this time Itasca begins sending As on 7500.)

0800 local time
KHAQQ CLNG ITASCA  WE RECD UR SIGS BUT UNABLE TO GET A MINIMUM  PSE TAKE
BEARING ON US AND ANS 3105 WID VOICE / NRUI DE KHAQQ LNG DASHES

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:31:36 EST
From:         Dave Kelly
Subject:      Re: NY TIMES letter

She was brave, and I think more intelligent than most would have thought she was. To fly an aircraft in those days was a pioneering effort. It took horse sense, and an intimate knowledge of weather, navigation, aircraft characteristics, and the many airports that you would need to refuel to aid your progress. Pilots were a hardy breed back then. Amelia's flight was risky in many ways, and she knew it. The leg between Lea and Howland was in all respects the most perilous. The sum of her skill and experience, and those of Fred Noonan, would be required to reach the tiny speck that lay in the vast South Pacific after hours of darkness, at the end of their fuel and personal endurance. If we never find that airplane, we would still know the great amount of courage it took for those two intrepid souls to view that unending horizon of water, and the unknown beyond, as they took off for the last time.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:35:36 EST
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      The last Jimmie Angel post

Thanks Dick.  Eyewitness testimony from someone who has seen the wreck to back up my vaguely remembered anecdote - and you all wondered what this had to do with Amelia (though I think I'll let the documentation slide on this one). The Forum truly does know all, tell all.

  LTM,
  Russ
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:42:42 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Followup to AE and HF/DF

Mike E. wrote:

> The answer to this is No.  HF/DF wasn't even carried in World War II
> aircraft, unless of course it was for some special purpose....

The terminology HF/DF is not so clear to me, probably because I am not a radio buff. I can state that by 1943, B-24 Liberators (and probably other bombers, though I would have to check this) carried radio compass ADF gear which they used to navigate the long flights across the Atlantic and Pacific (not just the Pacific). Crossing the Atlantic on the southern route out of Natal, Brazil (isn't that an earlier Earhart route?), they used ADF to track inbound to Ascension for rest and refueling before flying onward to Accra, Gold Coast (now Ghana).

Perhaps one of the radio buffs can tell me difference between HF/DF and radio compass ADF, but if they are the same device, then they were definitely in extensive use in WWII on heavy bombers, being standard gear. Before that, I don't know.

Thomas Van Hare

***************************************************************

From Ric

Let me try to spare you an answer from one of the radio gurus.

HF/DF stands for High Frequency Direction Finding.  ADF stands for Automatic Direction Finder.  The first refers to what frequencies you're using to for DFing.  The second refers to how the instrument itself works.  Not at all the same thing.  WWII planes routinely carried ADFs or Radio Compasses (as they were more commonly called back then) but they worked on low frequencies (LF).
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:44:32 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: NY TIMES letter

Bill Carter wrote:

>Sloppy reporting.  Unfortunately, Butler's adopted
>an old Latin legal maxim:
>
>"Presumtio ex eo quod plerumque fit" - Presumptions arise
>from what generally happens.

Which brings to mind another old Latin maxim:

"Illegitimati Non Carborundum"

It's good advice for all us Tigers...

LTM,
Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:46:50 EST
From:         Dick Evans
Subject:      Anchoring at Gardner

On question 4, you are absolutely correct. Nobody ties a ship up on Gardner. They must remain under power all the time they are in the area. This includes the ships that spent 3 or 4 days bringing us diesel fuel which was unloaded by tossing the barrels over the side and towing them onto the edge of the reef where we waited and pulled them ashore. Landings of heavier equipment were all made with landing barges (usually and LCM) and a coxswain had to be at the wheel with an engine runing all the time. If AE and FN did indeed land on Gardner with the right engine in operating condition, they would have had to do it on the coral reef - which was plenty smooth enough although there were plenty of lines of gaps dropping down into the coral for a couple of feet.

        Dick Evans
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Date:         Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:28:10 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re AE&HF/DF

Mike Everette wrote:

> Before this (1935), "radio direction finding" in aircraft
> consisted of fixed loop antennas, so that keeping the aircraft
> pointed at the station caused a "null" in the pilot's headphones.

OK, so let's imagine that after fiddling with the instrument for some time, you realized that no matter how much you spun the antenna, you couldn't get a null. Then, if you were someone familiar with pre-1935 DF procedures, you might try to eliminate aircraft-related interference by turning the antenna to a fixed forward null position. This way, you would turn the plane instead of the antenna until you found the null, which meant that you were flying either straight toward or straight away from the station.

All this is hypothetical, but the only way to find the station would be to circle slowly until you got the null, then fly that course, which would be, as earlier noted, either straight toward it or straight away from it. Hence, a possible, quite plausible explanation for this confusing radio transmission from Earhart (which includes a reference to taking a DF bearing):

Itasca Primary Radio Log entry for 07:58 a.m. July 2, 1937:

KHAQQ CLNG ITASCA WE ARE CIRCLING BUT CANNOT HR U GA ON 7500 WID A LNG COUNT EITHER NOW OR ON THE SKD TIME ON 1/2 HOUR      (KHAQQ S5 A3) 0758

Let's discuss. This probably cannot be solved, but it is worth considering.
Thomas Van Hare

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From Ric

Ahhh, you have hit upon one of the great myths of the Earhart legend. Let me recreate for you an historic moment which occurred in this humble office a year or so ago when Randy Jacobson and I were poring over that self same passage in the original Itasca radio log.

Randy:  I say, there is something odd about this entry.

Ric:  By Jove, you are correct!  See how the word CIRCLING is not aligned precisely with the other words.  This word was clearly added sometime later.

Randy:  Exactly.  And see too how the word that was originally in that position seems to have been erased.

Ric (turning to Pat):  If we scanned it and then, on the computer, removed all but the traces of the erased word, I wonder if we might be able to discern what it was?

Pat: Should be easy.  Give it here. (after a few moments)  Yes, it's quite clear.  The erased word was DRIFTING.

Randy:  So the radio operator at first thought that Earhart had said "WE ARE DRIFTING BUT CANNOT HEAR YOU."

Ric:  That didn't make any sense so he went back and changed it to something he thought did make sense.  Of course, CIRCLING doesn't make sense either.  My guess is that she really said WE ARE LISTENING BUT CANNOT HEAR YOU.  That's what makes sense.

For 60 some-odd years people have been puzzling over why Amelia was circling. She wasn't.

Love to mother,
Ric
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Date:         Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:30:13 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Chronometers

I have a question for the all-knowing, all-telling Forum:

What kinds of chronometers was Noonan packing, or if that's not known, what kinds of chronometers was he most LIKELY to be packing?

Thanks

LTM
Tom King
Project Archeologist