Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:15:57 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Goerner message claim >The only other alleged (and it is VERY shaky) inflight message was reported by >Fred Goerner as having been heard by Nauru on 6210 Kcs (the frequency she said >she was changing to) at about noon Howland time when she should have had about >a half hour of fuel left and could have been coming up on Gardner. The >message supoosedly was "Land in sight ahead." Goerner claimed that he saw >this in a government file in 1965 that was later changed. Do we know who on Nauru is supposed to have heard this message? I'd really rather not have to dig into Goerner's book! *************************************************************** From Ric You'll find the reference on page 318 of Goerner's book. It is April 6, 1965. Goerner is at the Office of Naval Information at the Pentagon in Washington to look at the U.S. Navy's classified (at that time) file on Earhart. Goerner has seen the file previously but he wants to see it again. With him is Ross Game, whom he describes earlier in the book (page 220) as "editor of the Napa (California) Register and secertary of the Associated Press." Goerner says: "At first, the report appeared the same. ... Further down in the file, however, some interesting bits of information had been added since our first perusal the year before. ... Near the bottom of the thick folder another piece of evidence had been added. a terse, U.S. Navy message with no heading stated, "At 10:30, the morning of the disappearance, Nauru Island radio station picked up Earhart on 6210 kcs saying, 'Land in sight ahead.' I blinked my eyes. Nearly two hours after Amelia had supposedly run out of gas, a radio station in the British-controlled Gilbert Islands (sic) had received her voice. Why was this message not included as part of the 1937 search? what had she sighted? Was that the extent of the message?" Fred Goerner provided more information in a letter to a TIGHAR member dated April 18, 1989: "Ross Game and I found that message in the CLASSIFIED U.S. Navy file which we were shown in 1965. We were not permitted to make photocopies of any of the material in the file, but we were permitted to make notes which were later cleared by the Navy. When the Freedom of Information Act took effect, the file we had been shown in 1965 was released to the public, but the message 'Land in sight ahead' was no longer part of the file. In other files we found that Nauru had received a message 'Ship in sight ahead' at 10:30 P.M. the evening before the disappearance. Captain Lawrence Frye Safford, USN (Ret.), who did considerable Earhart research in the late 1960s (and was writing a book on the matter at the time of his death) told me he believed the message Game and I saw was pulled by the Navy before the file was released in the belief that it had been corrupted from the message 'ship in sight ahead' and/or because I had made a point of the morning message in THE SEARCH FOR AMELIA EARHART. At this writing, I am unsure whether the morning message was bonafide or not. I am sure the message existed in the classified file we were shown, because both Ross Game and i have exactly the same wording in our notes." There you have it. On the one hand it seems incredible that the file would have been tampered with prior to its release, especially since the Navy had nothing to hide. On the other hand, I know that the officials who had to deal with Goerner and his allegations considered him to be a royal pain in the butt, and the temptation to let one slip of paper - a probably-erroneous message that only seemed to add fuel to the conspiracy fires - accidentally fall out of the file would be great. Especially if Fred's allegation is true that Ross Game's notes were identical to his own, it's hard for me to believe that the piece of paper was not there. Whether or not it was a genuine transmission by Earhart is another question. If it was, it just happens to fit very nicely into the Nikumaroro hypothesis. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:23:23 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Raiders of the Lost Lockheed Tom Robison writes: > What!!. Do you mean there AREN'T crates of historic stuff in musty old > warehouses in D.C., just waiting to be rediscovered? OK, it's a bit off-point, but: two stories. 1. A couple of years ago I was hired by a Naval research lab that was closing, to do a workshop for their people on the handling of historical documents. Why? Because they'd found piles and heaps of lab notebooks and similar stuff in old lockers, piled under lab benches, etc. Describing experimental weapons developments going back to WWII. And despite a COMNAVINST about the size of the D.C. yellow pages that directs Naval personnel in the handling of documents. 2. Last year, GSA was about to demolish an old building in downtown D.C. A demolition contractor's employee opened up a room and noticed pieces of paper sticking down through holes in the ceiling. He went up and looked, and found the crawl space full of papers and office supplies dating back to the Civil War, together with a sign that said "Missing Soldiers' Bureau: Miss Clara Barton. Enquire Room Six." When Clara moved her office at the end of the Unpleasantness, the government (or somebody) had just sealed up all her stuff in the attic and forgotten about it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail, and Noonan's sextant were all cohabiting in a government warehouse somewhere. Tom King ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:38:02 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Wreck Photo-op It sounds like we have another possible source for a photo of 2-engine wreck. However, it would appear pretty far removed from the Phoenix Island group. The Marshall Island vicinity fits better with "Captured by Japanese!" Several people will probably have posted that Ailinglapalap and Kwa are both in the Ralik Chain of the Marshall Islands (the western chain). I'm assuming that Kwa is short for "Kwajalein." John Bargerhuff posted: >Last fall Bob told us the story of witnessing a group of excited >servicemen returning from a boat "excursion" (Bob thought it was a day trip) >where they had seen twin engine plane wreckage on a "nearby island". So, what is the story here? Who is Bob Russell and who is "us?" And what the heck was Operation Sandstone? *************************************************************** From Ric Sandstone was one of the series of post-war nuclear tests in the Marshalls. Bob Russell was on Kwaj (Kwajelein) with the Army's Special Services (clubs, entertainment, etc.) unit. His story is purely anecdotal and very ephemeral, but it does describe some guys who come into a club all excited about the old wrecked airplane they saw on a deserted island. Russell's impression was that the wreck was seen somewhere in the Marshalls. We dithered around with it for a while but were never able to get any kind of handle on documenting the story. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:41:22 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Cables & Loran Station area For Bob... Yeah, I've been sorta pushing the idea that the cable is more a shielded cable than a coaxial cable, as we generally think of co-ax. What appears to be rubber insulation over a stranded center conductor and open braiding of the shield make me think: Designed for flexibility. A patch cord. Your response leads me to believe you're an electronics type. You probably were well acquainted with the electronic gear. So, do you remember the kind of connectors used on the equiment? Do you see connectors that would mate with the Howard P. Jones Series 101 plugs on the cable? We've tried real hard to find a place for the cable on an airplane with no success. I think it probably came from the Loran Station. I'm assuming it was once one cable. Not that it matters much for our purposes. Regarding the real estate... looking at the photo in TIGHAR Tracks for September 30, 1996, page 34, it looks like the Loran Station was sort of on the ocean shore of that southeastern tip of the island. But it does appear that it extended very nearly to the lagoon shore. There was probably, at least, good access to the lagoon. Some bush can be seen but it's hard to say how much of the lagoon shore might have been undisturbed. Gallagher said the partial skeleton, campfire site, sextant box, etc. were found on the southeast corner of the island about 100 feet above high water springs. I had thought we had indication that it was on the lagoon side rather than the ocean side but I can't find any statement of that sort by Gallagher. He did say there would be planting in the area and that more searching would be done in connection with that. We do see that the planting was done on the lagoon shore and well to the northwest of the Loran Station location on the tip of the island. Because of that planting, we tend to take that to be where Gallagher's people found all the stuff, but I don't feel confident that we've correctly identified the location. So, I keep worrying that Gallagher's "corner" of the island may have been the "tip" of the island where the Loran Station was located, and that anything we might have found there is long gone. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:57:44 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Kanawa Point (long) Over this past weekend Tom King and I developed a new hypothesis about where Gallagher found the castaway campsite (bones, shoe sole, sextant box, campfire, etc.). It seems to explain a lot of things that have been troubling us and we're pretty excited about it. We also know that a researcher with a new hypothesis is like a teenage boy with a new girlfriend. You have to get out of the back seat, take her to the dance and find out what she's like in public. So here she is. This is going to be a long post. Bear with me. Ever since the discovery of the Tarawa File (aka Gallagher Papers) in the late spring of 1997, we have thought that the site described by Gallagher was most likley the same site where we found the shoe parts in 1991 and the campfire (with label fragment) earlier in 1997. This did not require a great leap of faith. Gallagher said that the site was near the lagoon shore on the "southeastern corner" of the island. Depending upon how loosely you define "corner", our site fit that description. Gallagher said that it was an area scheduled for clearing. We know that our site was cleared about that time. Gallagher described finding part of the sole of a woman's "stoutish walking shoe." We found the same thing. Gallagher said there was a fire there. We found a fire. But if this was, indeed, the castaway campsite, why have we not found more artifacts or bones despite intensive searching? And if the fire turns out to be modern rather than old, as we now suspect, how does that fit? And isn't it perhaps just too much of a coincidence that we should originally stumble upon the campsite in the course of an investigation of a feature (the baby grave) which turns out to have nothing to do with anything? And what if Gallagher was speaking specifically instead of generally when he said "southeastern corner?" On August 29, 1998 Tom dropped me an email which launched one of those back-and-forth brainstorming sessions which can produce revelation or compost.Here's how it went. ************************************************************** From Tom King 8/29/98 I had a sudden thought in the night (I do, from time to time). Niku is an atoll of sorts, but it's an unusual atoll in that the land around the lagoon is almost continuous. Most atolls are made up of multiple small islands separated by more or less submerged reef, around the fringe of a subsided mountain. If one were thinking of Niku overall as an atoll, rather than as a single unitary island, then one would think of it as made up of two islands -- one comprising Nutiran, Taraia, Aukaraime north and south, and Ameriki; the other comprising Ritiati, Noriti, and Tekebeia. The southeast end of the latter would be Tekebeia, east of Baureke Passage. I wonder how Gallagher would have thought of it. And just to add interest, it's the promontory at the west end of Tekibeia that we think was the site of the "Ghost Maneaba," where Nei Manganibuka was allegedly sighted early in the colony's days. John, Veryl, LeRoy and I took a fairly close look at this promontory in '89, but we are unlikely to have detected anything as ephemeral as a campfire or bone scatter. Farther to the east, as I recall (though I'll have to dig out the maps), it was wall-to-wall Scaevola and we didn't look at it too closely. Food for thought.... LTM TK *************************************************************** Here I need to insert a little explanation about Nei Manganibuka. She is the Gilbertese ancestor/spirit who is the guardian of Nikumaroro. At some time soon after the island was first settled, the wife of Teng (Mr.) Koata, the Native Magistrate, had an encounter with the goddess. Here is how the event was described by Paul B. Laxton, the post-war District Commissioner who spent several months on Niku in 1949: "The wife of Teng Koata, the first island leader, had been walking one afternoon and saw a great and perfect maneaba, and sitting under its high thatched roof, Nei Manganibuka, a tall fair woman with long dark hair falling to the ground about her, with two children: she conversed with three ancients, talking of her island of Nikumaroro, and its happy future when it would surely grow to support thousands of inhabitiants." (A maneaba is a communal meeting house and is the central feature of a Gilbertese village.) *************************************************************** Ric to Tom 8/29/98 Well, you did it again. You got me thinking and looking into things and I found something kind of interesting. See what you think. ... What really strikes me after reading your theory that the Ghost Maneaba promontory at "the southeastern corner of the island" may be the spot Gallagher is talking about is that this feature appears on the New Zealand survey map as "Kanawa Point." This rather clearly implies that there was a Kanawa tree or trees at that location in late '38/early '39. Kanawa is rare and valuable wood. Gallagher, on 27 December 1940, says that the coffin built to convey the bones to Fiji "is made from a local wood known as 'kanawa' and the tree was, until a year ago, growing on the edge of the lagoon, not very far from the spot where the deceased was found." December of '39 sounds a bit early for clearing operations to be underway down on Aukaraime, but if Kanawa trees are rare and highly prized, that could draw people to that place. I think we need to re-examine Gallagher's description of the site with the Ghost Maneaba promontory in mind. Love to mother, Ric **************************************************************** Tom to Ric 8/29/98 My, my, my. Remember, too, Laxton's note about the fish pond close to the Ghost Maneaba. Maybe a good place to camp.....? And didn't Laxton also say that Kanawa was used to build the furniture in the Rest House? Ergo, people might have been visiting Kanawa Point during the Rest House construction, which was prior to Gallagher's arrival, no? Or about the time the skull was found and buried? I knew there was SOME reason I had a print made of that site, and have had it hanging on my wall all these years. Not that you can see anything but Level 2 Scaevola, but it's the symbolism, don't y'know? But -- do we have anything that would suggest whether Gallagher and the Gilbertese thought of Niku as one island or two? And of course, if Kanawa Point is the bones site, what the hell is Aukaraime South? LTM TK **************************************************************** Ric to Tom 8/29/98 Check out Laxton's description of the peninsula where Mrs. Koata saw the Ghost Maneaba (page 150 of his journal article). On either side are big pools where fish are trapped at low tide and frigates (or Gilbertese) come to get them. If you were marooned and needed easy to catch food, where would YOU camp? The question is, which peninsula is he talking about? The skinny little one that runs parallel to the shore line or the larger one just beyond which goes out into the lagoon? Which one did you visit in '89? The skinny one was part of the area partitioned in Laxton's land allotments. The larger one wasn't. I also suspect that the location of the Ghost Maneaba may also be "Niurabo," the place on the island where Managanibuka was said to live (according to Risasi on Funafuti). LTM, Ric **************************************************************** Tom to Ric 8/29/98 Great minds..... We were never sure which peninsula Laxton was referring to, but we figured it was probably the fat one, because it's the one that has pools (coves, really) on either side. That's where we went in the tinny, poking about in the western cove thinking there might be a nice pile of bones there. It was one of the last things we did on the island in '89, and was very much a disconsolate walkabout, hoping for serendipity. I don't recall that we could even distinguish the skinny one from the lagoon side, and the landward side was about Level 9 Scaevola -- that's where Bill, Jessica and I almost bought the farm and achieved videographic fame, trying to cut in from the other side. TK **************************************************************** Ric to Tom 8/30/98 Okay, we agree that the feature marked on the Kiwi map as Kanawa Point is probably the place where Mrs. Koata met Manganibuka at the Ghost Maneaba. It may also be the place called "Niurabo." We agree that Kanawa Point, because it is on the "South East corner of island" (if Niku is two islands), could fit Gallagher's description of the bone site. We note that the flanking fish ponds would make Kanawa Point a good place to camp. There is an obvious Kanawa Konnection between the Kiwi name for the feature and Gallagher's statement that there was a Kanawa tree on the lagoon shore near the bone site. How significant this is depends upon how common Kanawa trees really are (or were) on Niku. Maybe we should find out just what the hell a Kanawa tree is. We seem to have adequate reason to suggest that Gallagher's bone site, Kanawa Point, and the Ghost Maneaba site (Niurabo?) are all the same place. What is the chronology of these three encounters with this site? The Kiwi naming certainly came first. They left before the first women arrived. It seems logical to suggest that the presence of a Kanawa tree on the shore was unique enough to prompt that name for that point of land. We don't know just when Teng Koata's wife showed up, but because he was the island honcho it seems likely that she was one of the first wives to come to the island. At any rate, it seems safe to say that she was there well before Irish took up residence in September of 1940. That raises the possibility (if not probability) that the Ghost Maneaba incident happened prior to Gallagher's arrival. If so, what are the chances that the harvesting of the Kanawa tree from which the bone coffin was eventually made (circa December 1939), the discovery and burial of the skull (about the same time), and Mrs. Koata's close encounter of the third kind (date unknown), are completely unrelated? Right. Now we have to look closely at some hardcore folklore - the Ghost Maneaba incident. Laxton - "The wife of Teng Koata, the first island leader, had been walking one afternoon and saw a great and perfect maneaba, and sitting under it's high thatched roof, Nei Manganibuka, a tall fair woman with long dark hair falling to the ground about her, with two children: she conversed with three ancients, talking of her island of Nikumaroro, and its happy future when it would surely grow to support thousands of inhabitiants." Let's start from the assumption that something happened - that this woman did not simply fabricate this story out of whole cloth. Note that Mrs. Koata does not speak or interact directly in any way with Manganibuka. She is strictly an observer. I get the feeling that she's peeking through the bushes. She is "walking one afternoon" and comes upon something that probably scares the bejesus out of her. Reduced to it's most basic elements, removing as much interpretation as possible, she sees a female human figure sitting on the ground under a shelter. This is not a fellow islander because the person looks dramatically different from a Gilbertese (a tall fair woman with long dark hair falling to the ground about her). With her are two figures which Mrs. Koata interprets to be children. She is alive because she is conversing with "three ancients" (whatever the hell that means). Confronted by such an apparition, Mrs. Koata quite naturally puts it into a context that makes it understandable. But what did she really see? I've avoided this as long as I can. Here goes. Of all the creatures that Mrs. Koata could have seen, she describes something that could be a completely 'round-the-bend Amelia Earhart. She is female, tall, fair-skinned, with long dark hair. She sits on the ground under a make-shift shelter in a good camping spot and babbles. There, I've said it and I'm glad. LTM, Ric **************************************************************** Tom to Ric 8/31/98 Well, OK, let's say Mrs. Koata does see Amelia alive. What happens then? How do we get from there to the bones and the shoes? It's a great story, but ... One thing I'm noticing reading I Kiribati oral traditions is that there's a lot of shape-shifting that goes on, particularly between bones and folks. Somebody's killed and burned and his bones stuck in a clamshell (these are little people) and they come back to life and climb out and zap people with lightning. Stuff like that. I wonder If Mrs. Koata doesn't have her vision after Koata and Co. find the skull, as some way of accounting for the thing and making everybody feel better about having come on the bod. Not as romantic, but it's got its charm. And what about the fact that it's Koata who has the Benedictine bottle? We definitely need to find out about Kanawa. We also probably ought to find Grimble's story about Koata, that Maude mentioned. LTM TK **************************************************************** Ric to Tom 8/31/98 Last night I reviewed the videotape Dirk made in the Solomons. An old woman named Erenite Kiron told him a story about a ghost. ... Ms. Kiron does not speak English. Her comments are paraphrased by a barely-audible off-camera interpreter who doesn't speak much English either. My interpretration of what she's saying is based partly on the translator's paraphrasing, the gestures she makes, and names I think can pick out of her testimony. She says that there is a place on the island called Niurabo. When people go there they see the ghost of a fair-skinned woman who is wearing a grass skirt that comes up over her breasts. When you get close to this ghost her face goes blank. Ms. Kiron never saw this ghost herself but she heard about it from a woman who did. Her name was Koata. (If I'm correct about the names, she pronounces Niurabo as niuRABo, very much swallowing the final o. Koata comes out koaTA.) No mention of Manganibuka or a ghost maneaba, etc. On the other hand, she doesn't seem very enthusiastic about answering questions from this I-Matang and the interpreter edits out the name Koata. I wonder what else he edits out. I'd like to have this tape looked at by someone who is really fluent in Gilbertese. Your idea that Mrs. Koata's encounter was more of a vision to help explain the disturbing discoveries at that site, rather than an actual encounter, would sure simplify things. The fact that Koata had the bottle may or may not be significant. He was head man on the island and might naturally be expected to have custody of an important object. What is interesting, come to think of it, is that the bottle was apparently seen as worth saving even before Gallagher arrives on the scene. I can imagine these guys working on clearing and exploring this neat new island that even has kanawa trees, and then they find this damn skull. This is not good. At the very least it means there is a ghost loose on the island. They bury the skull (as damage control) but they stay the hell away from the place where it was found. Koata does, however, keep the bottle that was found at the same time. Once the skull is buried, the bottle serves as proof of this amazing and disturbing event. I can also imagine that everyone is less than thrilled when Gallagher insists that they go back and look for more stuff, and then the idiot wants to dig up the skull. (I'd like to have a transcript of THAT conversation.) It just occurred to me that Koata is not there when the bone search/skull exhumation is going on. He's in Tarawa (for whatever reason). I keep coming back to the question of chronology. Where does Mrs. Koata's encounter fit into the sequence of events? ************************************************************** Tom to Ric 8/31/98 I'll bet Koata kept the bottle because it was a neat bottle. Reminds me of Pat's Chuukese "father," Katin -- a guy very much like Koata in rank, knowledge, etc. -- who came to us after we'd excavated six bodies of his quite direct ancestors, buried in the '30s when he was a young man, and asked if he could have the nice knife sharpener we'd found with one of them. Everybody had been highly respectful of the dead, and the whole village was on edge about ghosts, but here was old Katin, the most powerful traditional knowledge bearer in much of the Lagoon, wanting to ghoul the whetstone. Island logic ain't our logic. Your scenario makes a lot of sense. I wonder if Koata's departure for Tarawa with the bottle triggered the recovery of the skull. "Koata sure is attached to that bottle," Gallagher comments to someone as the Nei Manganibuka takes the last load out to the ship. "Yes," the other guy says; "that's the one he found with that skull." "That WHAT?" asks Gallagher, and the game is afoot. You know, maybe this is why whatsisname, Gallagher's erstwhile assistant and translator, didn't know anything about the bones. Maybe he was on the same trip to Tarawa, and when he got back, mum was the word. That's always troubled me. *************************************************************** Ric to Tom 8/31/98 Looking more closely at the map produced from the Kiwi survey, I note that patches of vegetation are annotated as to their make-up -" Puka (sic) trees", scattered patches of Mao and Ren scrub". etc. In only one location on the entire island is their a notation mentioning Kanawa. It is on the "Kanawa Point" peninsula and it says "Kanawa trees (valuable hard wood)." The notation at our Aukaraime site is "Puka trees." Gallagher makes a big deal of the Kanawa wood coffin in his 27 December letter and in his 11 February concilatory wire to Isaac he offers (and then apparently changes his mind and crosses out the offer) to make him "a little tea table - we have a little seasoned timber left." Kanawa wood seems to be very rare and highly prized. When the Kiwis are there in late '38/early '39 there appears to be a grove of Kanawa on that peninsula. By February of '41 "we have a little seasoned timber left." Sounds like the Gilbertese really went after the stuff. I think that Gallagher's mention of the Kanawa tree is the key to this thing. The settlers arrive in early '39. They soon discover that there's a grove of Kanawa on the island and they start harvesting it. As Kilt's says, "They were about through" when the skull was found in late 1939. How and when Mrs. Koata's encounter with Manganibuka (and the consequent sanctification of the place as Niurabo) fit in, I don't know. But I'm beginning to think that we're really on to something here. We still, of course, have a very interesting shoe and a maybe old/maybe new campfire down on Aukaraime - and little else despite some pretty intense coverage of the immediate area. We've already postulated an exploratory expedition 'round the atoll by Fred and AE. Bevington has told of seeing a place on Aukaraime where someone had bivouacked for the night, but he didn't see any bones or sextant boxes. Maybe they stopped there for the night, left their shoes to dry by the fire (if it turns out to be an old fire) and woke up to discover that they had left the shoes too close to the fire. Good thing they have a second pair with them (we know Amelia had another pair on the trip). They continue along and find Kanawa Point, probably a gorgeous spot in those days. A grove of shady hardwood trees wafted by lagoon breezes, and easy fishing in the bordering tidal pools. Spins my prop. LTM, Ric ************************************************************** Tom to Ric 9/1/98 Spins mine, too. And if I can just lay my hands on the '78 Kiribati biological survey, I'll bet it identifies Kanawa. **************************************************************** Ric to Tom 9/1/98 Don't bet on it. I have a sneaking suspicion that Kanawa was completely eradicated through exploitation. The 1964 biological survey written by Roger Clapp (Niku Source Book, Section 2, Item 14) catalogs lots of different types of trees and plants, but nothing that sounds at all like Kanawa. **************************************************************** That's where we are at this point. Your comments are welcome. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:06:56 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: San Diego Help Needed We need a researcher in the San Diego area who would be willing to try to track down and interview surviving family of Coast Guard veteran Floyd Kilts. His 1960 newspaper interview was the first published account of bones being found on Gardner island. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:52:30 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Major Ed Dames TIGHAR member Paul Verde 1447 reports FLASH - FLASH - FLASH - FLASH - FLASH - FLASH - FLASH - FLASH On my way home tonight, I was listening to AM radio on a local station here in Atlanta. It was a nationally syndicated show hosted by Art Bell. His guest was a man named Major Ed Dames. Mr. Dames specialty was "techno remote data viewing". (Whatever that is.) Mr. Dames and his company called Sci-Tek(sp?), are planning a trip to Micronesia this Oct-Nov '98. He claims the Lockheed engines, other wreckage pieces, and Amelia's remains lay in 60 feet of water and he knows the location. Further, he claims she went down in a furious storm near, not on, an atoll and survived the crash only to promptly drown. No mention of Fred. I s w e a r I'm not making this up. That, my friends is all I heard. Well, he also mentioned that the U.S. economy will fail shortly and there will be mass hysteria and much gnashing of teeth around the world. But that was trivial compared with the REALLY BIG NEWS! *************************************************************** Mr. Dames is actually a subscriber to this forum, although he has never submitted a posting. I guess that's not surprising. He already knows where Amelia is and what we're all thinking. Is this a great country or what? ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:55:10 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Have Trowel Will travel One thing it might be nice to add to the Saga of Kanawa Point is that it was a forum posting -- was it from Vern? -- worrying about the "SE corner" business that got me started thinking about it, leading to my "two-island" speculation, and so forth. It's a nice example, I think, of the catalytic effect of the Forum. On another topic: my teaching schedule for the rest of this year and first half of next is more or less firmed up. Can never be sure, of course; some classes don't fly (props don't spin) and others get developed more or less on spurs of moments, but the following is what my travel looks like right now. If you'd like to share this with the Forum in the event anybody wants to put on a fund raiser or something while I'm in town, or just get together to talk, I'd be happy to try to accommodate. Have slides, etc. etc.... Travel Schedule Sept. 19-21: Salt Lake City, UT Sept. 22-24: Idaho Falls, ID Sept. 29-30: Atlanta, GA Nov. 10-12: Seattle, WA Dec. 1-3: Madison, WI Jan. 5-8: Dallas, TX Jan. 11-12: Salt Lake City, UT Feb. 3-10: Atlanta, GA Mar. 14-17: Reno, NV Mar. 22-27: Chicago, IL Apr. 11-15: Honolulu, HI Apr. 19-20: Sacramento, CA Apr. 28-May 5: San Francisco, CA June 7-9: Phoenix, AZ LTM TK ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:58:30 EDT From: Natko Katicic Subject: Re: Kanawa Point Ric, this sounds very plausible. I can offer only 2 comments that come to mind in a spontaneous, brainstorming fashion: 1) >Reduced to its most basic elements, removing as much >interpretation as possible, she see's a female human figure sitting on the >ground under a shelter. This is not a fellow islander because the person >looks dramatically different from a Gilbertese (a tall fair woman with long >dark hair falling to the ground about her). With her are two figures which >Mrs. Koata interprets to be children. No idea what the children might be >She is alive because she is conversing >with "three ancients" (whatever the hell that means). Well, does it mean she is alive? Is it possible that "ancients" means forefathers and talking with them is just an euphemism for being dead??? >Confronted by such an >apparition, Mrs. Koata quite naturally puts it into a context that makes it >understandable. But what did she really see? maybe she saw a female skeleton??? 2) a bit off topic but answers quite a bit of dispute (no land club...) on the forum lately: >>> "Yes," the other guy says; "that's the one he found with that skull." >>> "That WHAT?" asks Gallagher, and the game is afoot. So much about the eagerness of the Gilbertese to report found objects to the western 'authorities'. If the didn't report a skull, why would they report a plane wreck if found. LTM, Natko. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:02:11 EDT From: Al Hall Subject: Kanawa kanoe? The discussion about the Kanawa trees on Gardner may have helped me identify the wood in my model outrigger canoe. I traded some cigarettes to one of the Gilbertese on Canton (1946) for a handcrafted outrigger canoe about 15 inches long complete with paddle. It is a very attractive wood but I have never been able to identify it. Now I wonder if it is Kanawa...... Al Hall #2143 *************************************************************** From Ric Hang on to that canoe Al. I have a hunch we'll be finding out all kinds of things about Kanawa wood. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:37:04 EDT From: Antonio Gomez Subject: Thanks from a new subscriber Hello, my name is Antonio (Tio) Gomez, I live in Veracruz, Mexico. I don't want to take much of your most valuable time, I only want to say that since I read the LIFE article, I was drawn to this very serious and most interesting topic. I have been on your list for two days, and my emotions have been going like a yo-yo. I have given myself the homework of following Ms. Earhart's steps while she was in Mexico in 1935. Thank you good people of TIGHAR, if I can be of any help, I modestly am at your service. My job is MIS manager in a Nuclear Plant for the National Utility in Mexico. Your friend and admirer... Antonio (Tio) Gomez ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Tio. Welcome aboard. I hope you and other forum subscribers who find our work worthwhile will join TIGHAR. We need your support. You'll find a printable membership form on our website at www.tighar.org ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:19:47 EDT From: Ed Dames Subject: Re: Major Ed Dames Please refer to my original email letter to you. I plan upon meeting with both you and Tom King, in the near future. Respectfully, Ed Dames ************************************************************** From Ric Sorry, but I don't recall receiving an email letter from you. Perhaps you could re-send it. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:59:30 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Remote viewing "Remote Viewing" is apparently a process which the Air Force and Army actually had experts in, according to a "Sightings" episode which aired in the latter part of this summer on the Science Fiction Channel. There are actually several web sites available to investigate this psi-phenomenon, by simply doing a web search. Always interested in such thrilling topics as conspiracy theories, e.s.p, and u.f.o.s, I can't resist checking these kinds of things out. While some aspects of such phenomena defy explanation via conventional science at times, they are not excluded by it. If the sightings episode is accurate, there was (and is) a highly organized "Remote Viewing" project in operation using military personnel. If interested, check it out. The truth is out there. We now return control of your computer to you. Spinning at red line,--------Gene Dangelo :) *************************************************************** From Ric Yeah, the truth is out there. Due to the nature of TIGHAR's work (looking for lost stuff) it is hardly surprising that, over the years, we have attracted the proffered help of any number of psychics, astrologers, remote viewers, map dowsers, you name it. I have always tried to keep an open mind toward their claims and have, on numerous occasions, conducted tests in cooperation with these people to determine if there might be any semblance of merit to this whole field of alleged information access. My experience has been that, although interesting and sometimes even startling apparent correlations turn up, nothing of any real use exists which can be demonstrated in a controlled experiment. I am not in least bit impressed, although I am a bit miffed, that taxpayers' dollars have been spent on a supposed phenomenon that everything I have seen tells me is pure hogwash. I'm willing to be convinced but I'm a hard sell on this one. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:13:08 EDT From: Jack Subject: Photo of Gurr and AE Ref. Mike E's August 05, 1998 Radio Equip. Guys, I think I have found something Ric has not seen or read. Can that be possible? Is this a first? In the aforementioned message Ric's reply indicates Quote Joseph Gurr's name does not appear anywhere in any of the documentation or publicity I have seen concerning the aircraft or flight. I've never seen a photo that claims to show him with AE Unquote. I have a photo of Joe Gurr and AE at Burbank in 1937. AE signed the photo "To Joe Gurr with 500KCs of appreciation." Also have a picture of John Ray with pioneer aviator Bobbi Trout. Ray was the guy that took the trailing wire antenna out of AE's L10-E Along with the pictures is a very interesting article "Amelia didn't know Radio." by Al Gray former PAA FRO now deseased. OK Ric, do I have a scoop? Will mail copy to TIGHAR 1. LTM, Jack 2157 *************************************************************** From Ric That's a scoop. The photo appeared in the article you mention by Captain Almon Gray. "Amelia Didn't Know Radio" appeared in Naval History, Nov/Dec 1993. I had forgotten about it. Gray's article is full of conjecture stated as fact without documentation. Same old problem. Gray was a genuine authority on radio but he apparently didn't understand the first thing about historical investigation. He just takes everybody's word for everything. This John Ray business is a classic example. The photo of Ray with Bobbi Trout is clearly a recent photo (they're both old). John Ray telling an unsubstantiated story half-a-century after the vent does not make it so. I have photos taken May 20, 1937 which show that the trailing wire (or at least any external sign of it) was gone when the airplane came out of the repair shop in Burbank. That trumps any anecdote. But the Gurr photo is important. It seems to establish that Gurr did know AE during the time she had the Electra and that she was grateful to him in a radio context ("550 Kcs of appreciation"). Wiley Rollins 2090 has sent me Goerner's notes on Gurr from the Nimitiz Museum collection. Perhaps they will shed more light on Gurr's credibility. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:17:42 EDT From: Rob Williams Subject: Re: Major Ed Dames Here is the PSI Tech website, for those interested in a look: http://www.trv-psitech.com/about.htm There is nothing under the heading "Amelia Earhart's Lockheed Electra 10E - Pinpoint Location" other than "investigation in progress". But a tour of the site might give you an indication of what to expect. I'll say no more. Rob Williams ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:31:12 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Rickenbacker Incident (long) A brief (relatively) account of the Rickenbacker flight and ditching. Without a lot of the details, this is the essence of what I've learned from two books, each written by one of the people on the plane and in the rafts. One was in the raft that made it to Nukufetau. The books are essentially in agreement as to what happened. "We Thought We Heard the Angels sing," Lieut. James C. Whittaker, 1943 "Eddie Rickenbacker," Col. Hans Christian Adamson, 1946 Interestingly, this is another case of radio DF failure -- and of how hard it is to find a speck of dry land in the South Pacific. The flight started from Hickam Field, Honolulu. The first B-17 experienced a one-wheel brake lock-up and groundlooped at about 50 MPH. The navigator's octant slid across the table and slammed into the side of the aircraft. Upon examining it, he concluded that it did not appear to be damaged. Another B-17 was brought out and the same people took off in it. The destination was Canton Island. It was usual to stop at either Christmas or Johnston on this flight but Rickenbacker was under such pressure to get into MacArthur's realm that they topped off the fuel tanks and headed directly for Canton. Several hours into the flight, the navigator reported that he had made several good sightings and they were right on course. But when the ETA for Canton had passed, they realized that the octant had been knocked out of adjustment and they had passed Canton on one side or the other and had no idea where they were. They had also concluded somewhere along the way that the compass was not right. There was still the radio DF and they were able to raise Canton Radio. But bad luck had not let up. They couldn't rotate the loop to find a null. Try as they would, the handle could be turned only a few degrees -- mechanically bound up. The loop had been used to hear the tower at Hickam Field, and judged to be in operating condition. But there is no indication that the loop was ever rotated at that time. It may have been bound up from the start. They were still not greatly disturbed. They would set up the "lost plane" procedure. The ground station takes two bearings 15 minutes apart and figures out a course for the plane to fly to the station. But Canton reported that it was not yet equipped to do the "lost plane" procedure. **** There is some question whether it was Canton but, if not, it was an island near Canton. The radioman found another station that could do the "lost plane" thing, but it was about 1,000 miles away. They had enough fuel to get about three quarters of the way there. This radio contact tried to figure something to do but all the ideas were unworkable because the crew didn't know the direction of the station from wherever they were. It appears that all these radio contacts were by code. There is no reference to voice communication. And no indication of frequencies used. It was concluded that the only thing left to do was to try the "box procedure." A lost plane flys a course that describes a square. This enables the crew to scan a vast area lying inside and outside the box. They would fly 45 minutes on each leg of the box and have about an hour's fuel when finished. Canton was asked to begin firing anti-aircraft shells timed to explode at 8,000 feet. They would fly at 10,000 feet. Canton responded that firing would begin at once and planes would be sent out to look for them and lead them in. They saw nothing but ocean and scattered clouds. No shell bursts, no planes, and no islands. They would have to put it down in the water while there was still a little fuel left. They landed cross wind and lined up with a wave trough. It was probably the first time a 4-engine aircraft was landed in water without it being total disaster. Everyone was alive although there were some injuries. None were life threatening. They got three rafts in the water with some food and water. One person did die later from, thirst, starvation, and exposure. He was simply put over the side. The rafts were tied together for about two weeks. At about the beginning of the third week, they separated. The thinking of some was that if any raft was sighted, then they would know approximately where to search for the others. One of the rafts drifted in sight of what turned out to be Nukufetau, about 40 miles from Funafuti that had been taken by the Japanese only two weeks before. There was a native population and a radio facility let nearby American forces know they were there. It appears the other two rafts had already been found by Navy search planes. We have no answer to how far they drifted because we don't know where they went down. Somewhere near the Phoenix Islands? Maybe. Their course wouldn't have to be off very much to have got them into the open area between the Phoenix islands and Funafuti in the Tuvalu group. They would have sighted an island almost anywhere else! Vern's two-cents worth... Early in the game, they were in contact with Canton and pretty close. An estimate based on signal strength put them about 25 miles away. I think they could have DFed their way to Canton (or wherever the station was). It required some thinking "outside the box." They couldn't rotate the loop but they could turn the plane. Whatever the position of the loop, and with a compass known to be in error, I think it could be done. If they could get a null, they could resolve the 180 degree ambiguity and end up with a bearing on Canton with less flying around than they did in that search pattern. ************************************************************* From Ric I'm confused about what island the Japanese had taken just two weeks before. Surely not Funafuti, but if the Japanese held Nukufetau why weren;'t they captured? Also, can you post the dates they went down and when they were found? I'd like to see how that corresponds with Swan's wanderings. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:32:52 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Kanawa Point I'm glad to see a theory that tends to reconcile the coconut planting with Gallagher's southeast corner! And gets the campfire site away from where the Loran Station was. I was sure having a hard time seeing a "corner" anywhere along the southwest side of the island! It may be significant that it is the one of the two islands on which they elected to establish the village. Now if we could just find indication that Gallagher, or any of the others acquainted with Niku, thought of it as being two islands. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:43:17 EDT From: Ric and Tom Subject: Nei Manganibuka Just to give everyone an idea of who we're dealing with on this Nei Manganibuka business: From Tom King "One morning when her brothers and sisters were out, Nei Manganibuka sat alone -- thinking. She decided that she had learned all she could from her father and mother and that she should kill them before her brothers and sisters could acquire the same knowledge." "Nei Manganibuka the Mariner," in TRADITIONAL STORIES FROM THE NORTHERN GILBERTS, by Ten Tiroba of Baurike, Tarawa, translated by Reid Cowell. Institute of Pacific Studies, University of the South Pacific, 1989, pp. 15-16. Love to -- er -- Mother TK ************************************************************* From Ric Yup. That's our gal. What a sweetie. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:10:25 EDT From: Mike Everette Subject: Re: Kanawa Point Wow... When I read this yesterday it made my hair stand on end... for more than one reason. The most obvious reason, of course, is -- could AE have actually survived this long? And if she did, how long did she live after the "encounter"? The second is, the behavior described is eerily similar to that shown by some Alzheimer's Disease sufferers. I have seen such people take objects out of a garage -- for instance, a bale of yellow insulation -- and put them down outside; then, later, introduce visitors to "this lady in a yellow dress" or "this blonde lady, I'm sorry but I don't know her name, but I want you to meet my friend..." Perhaps, if this "ghost" was AE, she was suffering in a like manner. She may have even made crude statues of children, just to have someone to talk to! Yes, 42 years of age is way young to be afflicted with Alzheimer's, under normal circumstances... but this was hardly normal. Of course it may not have been Alzheimer's but a form of dementia... some of the symptoms are similar. Is there a history in AE's family of either disease? Might be interesting to know this. Oh, wow. Think on this. It may be less far fetched than one might first believe. 73 Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194 *************************************************************** From Ric This kind of thing is so tough to assess realistically. We're trying to interpret the accuracy of a tale arising out of a culture we know very little about that has already been interpreted by an outsider (Laxton). I've been re-reading Sir Arthur Grimble's papers, edited by Harry Maude and entitled "Tungaru Traditions." A couple points are worth noting. In the old days, it was not at all unusual for the Gilbertese to keep the skull of a dead relative around the house and talk to it as casually as they would to any other member of the family. On the other hand, Nei Koata is not reported to have had any direct discourse with this particular "anti" (pronounced "ahns") or ghost. Also, by the time of the settlement of the Phoenix Group, the London Missionary Society had done a rather thorough job of stamping out traditional Gilbertese customs and beliefs among the people of the southern Gilberts (where the first settlers on Gardner were from). This was somewhat less true in the northern Gilberts which were primarily Catholic, but at any rate - the reaction of the people who lived on Gardner in 1939/1940 to a heavy-duty spiritual event is not something we are equipped to say much about. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:41:25 EDT From: Chester Baird Subject: Re: remote viewing Ric wrote: >I am not in least bit impressed, although I am a bit miffed that taxpayers' >dollars have been spent on a supposed phenomenon that everything I have seen >tells me is pure hogwash. > >I'm willing to be convinced but I'm a hard sell on this one. Ric, you and I are in complete agreement on that point. LTM Chester ************************************************************* From Dave Bush Ric I, too, am usually pretty skeptical about esp type claims. however, I do believe that some incidents occur. I can name one that I personally experienced and even today have a hard time understanding it. I was driving home my usual route from work one afternoon and began to get a strong urgency, almost like a voice, telling me that when I reached a certain intersection, to look at the car that would be sitting there. I came to the intersection, a car was parked behind a construction barricade and I had to fight an overwhelming urge to go pop the trunk. Instead, I went home and called the police anonymously. The next night, on the news, I learned that the police had gone to the car and found a body in the trunk! Sometimes, I wonder if the person would still be alive if I had acted on my impulse. Also, I have experienced other direct phenomena for which there was no answer and would take to long to explain here. I don't claim to be psychic (psycho maybe) but based on my own experience, I cannot rule out that others might experience such phenomenon on a more intense scale. The problem comes in the interpretation of such things. The Bible is replete with such stories. Remember the handwriting on the wall? I wonder if the wife of the island bigwig experienced such a thing when she came upon AE's skeleton. Purely conjecture, but have heard of such things. She would actually have seen a "ghost", not some spirit of the island. Primitive people explain such "visions" away by making up spirits to explain them, since they don't know any other way. Well, so much for this subject. It makes a nice story, but as you said, doesn't add anything we can put our hands on. LTM, Dave Bush #2200 **************************************************************** From Ric >Primitive people explain such "visions" away by making up spirits to explain >them, since they don't know any other way.>> I'll go along with that if you strike out the word "primitive." The routine sightings of angels and Our Lady of Whatever are common occurrences in the first world as much as the third. We all want desperately for there to be such a thing as magic. Maybe there is. I'm a skeptic - but I've learned not to mess with Manginbuka. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:24:13 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Nei Manganibuka Is Nei Managanibuka the Gilbertese word for Lizzie Borden? SPM Dennis 0149 *************************************************************** From Ric Not exactly, although they seem to share an attitude. According to Gilbertese tradition, Nei (Ms.) Manganibuka (literally "branches of the buka tree") came to the Gilbert Islands long ago from a beautiful island covered with buka trees which lay far to the southeast and was called Nikumaroro. She taught the people the secrets of ocean navigation and expresses her displeasure (which is apparently rather easy to incur) by causing storms. When a delegation of Gilbertese elders first visited the Phoenix Islands in October of 1937 with Lands Commissioner Harry Maude and Cadet Officer Eric Bevington, the first island they evaluated for future settlement was Gardner. The elders took one look at this beautiful island to the southeast covered with buka trees and knew where they were and who lived here. Our own experiences merely confirm that those wise men were absolutely correct. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:27:57 EDT From: Ed Dames Subject: Re: remote viewing Got the message loud and clear, Ric. Best of luck to you and TIGHAR. Edward A. Dames President PSI TECH, Inc. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:43:27 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Kanawa Point Re. Vern's -- "Now if we could just find indication that Gallagher, or any of the others acquainted with Niku, thought of it as being two islands." Right, and thus far, I can't. I've been going through all of Maude's writings, figuring he'd be as likely as anyone to share Gallagher's idiom, and usually each whole atoll (Beru, Tarawa, etc. ) seems to be referred to as an island. Occasionally there will be references to "XXX in Tarawa," meaning an island in the Tarawa atoll, but I've yet to see such a thing referred to routinely as an island. "Islet" is the more frequently used term. But there's lots of reading to be done. Tom King ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:03:19 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Visions To Mike of the Radios -- I think there are a lot of better ways to account for what Koata's wife saw than to assume she saw Amelia. Native American medicine people of my acquaintance see little people and ghosts and all manner of supernatural things in places where, to my limited eye, there's nothing whatever to see. They're not making it up; they see something. What are they seeing? I have no idea, but I know that there doesn't necessarily have to be a visual cue that's recognizable to the jaundiced western eye to trigger such seeing. There's also a very liberal use of metaphor in traditional island discourse, and an easy sliding back and forth between the descriptive and the metaphoric. Nei Manganibuka talking with the ancients (communing with ancient and reputable spirit-sources of knowledge?) and taking care of the children while talking about how good things were going to be on the island may have been a metaphorical way of saying with authority and kindness that everything was really going to be all right, at a time when things weren't going particularly well for the colonists. Or, of course, it may have been something completely different; I don't think speculation is going to take us very far -- or rather, it can take us a long way, but we won't be anywhere when we get there. But it DOES rather raise the hairs on the back of the neck, doesn't it? LTM Tom King ************************************************************* From Ric A standing joke among the team members has been that one of these days we'll be met at the landing by an old hag who will say (hands on hips), "Well it's about goddamn time! (and shouting back over her shoulder) Fred! Put on your shoes. They're here." ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:38:08 EDT From: Roberta Woods Subject: dementia There is a condition that can seem like Alzheimer's in persons too young to actually be afflicted with the condition. A friend of mine related an astonishing story to me yesterday about her soon-to-be daughter-in-law who had to have brain surgery due to a pocket that had developed in her brain into which blood had pooled. Her symptoms were the same as Alzheimers patients report. Only her age--20s--convinced the doctors to look for something else. I didn't ask if this gal had had a head trauma that might have caused the condition, but if AE actually did survive the crash, perhaps this could explain such behavior. That is, if one goes so far as believing it to be literally true. All I'm saying is that it is possible to explain Alzheimer-type behavior with another, entirely plausible, condition. I think I'll contact my friend and ask if any head injury/trauma was in the gal's history. Roberta Woods **************************************************************** From Ric Believe me, you don't need to have suffered head trauma to be a bit barmy after a few weeks on Niku. It's not the implied dementia that makes the AE-alive-and -living-on-Niku scenario hard to swallow. I also don't have a problem with the notion of a reclusive, paranoid hermit avoiding human contact on the island. I think I could do it easily. The site Gallagher describes has clearly been abandoned for some time. There is no feeling in his reports that this is evidence of recent habitation. So if we're going to pursue a literal interpretation of Mrs. Koata's tale we'd have to say that she came upon AE very early on and, as a consequence, Amelia abandoned that campsite and moved deeper into the bush where she eventually died undiscovered. What really makes the Amelia-alive scenario hard to accept is not any practical problem that I can think of, but rather the very outrageousness of the notion. A gut feeling of, "Naw." The documented story is already better than any Hollywood screenwriter would dare suggest. The very idea of Amelia Earhart living out her days as some kind of female Ben Gunn is just too much. That, of course, is not a good reason to reject the possibility out of hand. The real problem is, as Tom says, that it's hard to see how we'd ever know. As a research topic it's a dead end. There's another reason not to get too wrapped up in this speculation. Can you imagine what would happen if the Weekly World News got hold of this? I don't think it would do much for our credibility. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:06:13 EDT From: Jim Tierney Subject: Swan/Rickenbacker time line According to Robert Serling's -From the Captain to the Colonel... EVR left SFO on 17 October 1942 and went to Hawaii for a brief visit to some local air bases then took off in the B-17 for Canton. Assume they left on 19 October. They were rescued on Nov 12 after having floated across the Date Line... That was my quickest reference available... Jim Tierney *************************************************************** From Ric Okay, Rickenbacker disappears around October 19, so by the time Swan leaves Hawaii for Canton on October 31, they've been missing for 12 days and we can assume that the search, such as it is, is in full swing. By the time Swan gets to Canton on November 7 and stops at Gardneron the 8th the flight is still missing but hope is probably fading. Swan arrives in Suva, Fiji on the 13th - the day after the survivors are found. All we can say with certainty at this point is that: A. Swan's stops at Gardner on the 8th (enroute to Suva) and on the 23rd (enroute back to Canton) are not explained by any order that was recorded in its deck log. B. The visit on the 8th occurred during a time when a VIP flight was missing in the region. If the story we heard on Funafuti about a government ship visiting Gardner to take pictures of airplane parts is true (whether or not the Wreck Photo is one of those pictures), the visits by Swan are is the best candidates I know of so far. To learn more we'll probably have to find someone who was aboard Swan at that time. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:11:06 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: FBI answer I was surprised to get a letter so soon from the FBI, although negative in content. It's basically a form letter with Subject: Noonan, Frederick J Request No. 437895. Reads as follows: "Based on the information furnished, a search of the indices to our central records system files at FBI Headquarters, both automated and manual, located no records responsive to your FOIPA request to indicate you or the subject(s) have ever been of investigatory interest to the FBI. In order to respond to our many requests in a timely manner, our focus is to identify responsive records that are indexed as main files. A main index record carries the names of subjects of FBI investigations. Although no main file records responsive to your FOIPA request were located in our indices, we are required to inform you that you are entitled to file an administrative appeal if you so desire" Then it goes on to describe the appeals process. Signed J. Kevin O'Brien, Chief, Freedom of Information- Privacy Acts Section, Office of Public and Congressional Affairs. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 *************************************************************** From Ric Good. I think we can consider that base covered. If Fred and his buddy Gene Pallette were Abwehr agents, the FBI wasn't on to them. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:13:32 EDT From: Walt Holm Subject: Re: Tom's travel schedule Tom: Given the number of TIGHARs in the San Francisco area, I'm sure we can put together some kind of shindig while you're in town. Just post a little reminder on the forum beforehand, or you can E-mail me if you like.... -Walt Holm ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:20:34 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Rickenbacker Retired crew chief recalls ordeal at sea by Capt. Andy Brunetto 514th Air Mobility Wing Public Affairs MCGUIRE AIR FORCE BASE, N.J. (AFNS) -- Private John Bartek had been floating on a life raft in the middle of the Pacific Ocean for six days. The sun was searing his skin, and all he could taste was the ocean's salt. Bartek and his seven crewmates from the ditched B-17C bomber were also starving. Caught between life and death, Bartek, a crew chief with the U.S. Army Air Force, opened his water-soaked New Testament Bible and found hope: "Therefore, take no thought, saying, what shall we eat? Or, what shall we drink? Or, wherewithal shall we be clothed?... for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things." That Scripture, from Matthew 6:31-34, Bartek believes, was God's assurance that they would survive. "Immediately after I whispered those words from my Testament," Bartek said, "our first meal in six days landed on Eddie's (Rickenbacker, former World War 1 ace) head." The crewmen killed the unlucky seagull, plucked and discarded the feathers, then divided it up between them, saving the intestines for fish bait. Bartek, now in his mid-70s, relived those harrowing three weeks in October 1942 when he received the Peter J. McCullough Memorial Award from the 732nd Airlift Squadron. The award is named in honor of a 732nd AS pilot who was killed in 1975 when the Eastern Airlines jet he was flying crashed at John F. Kennedy International Airport. An occasional award, the trophy is presented to individuals who create a positive impact on their community. "It was John's tremendous strength of spirit that attracted me to his story," says Lt. Col. Jim Nanfeldt, 732nd AS, flight examiner, who presented the award to Bartek. "He pulled them (the crew) together through the entire ordeal because of his faith in God." Bartek and the crew were eventually spotted by a U.S. Navy patrol plane and were picked up by Navy sailors. Though more than 40 years have passed, Bartek remembers the sun, the salt and the hunger like it was yesterday. With members of the 732nd as his audience, Bartek shared the detail of his struggle at sea. A day before the plane went down, Bartek, a flight engineer, was assigned to help transfer four B-17s to the United States from Hawaii so the aircraft could be used for training. Just before they were to leave, the aircraft pilot Capt. Bill Cherry told Bartek the mission had changed from a transfer to a secret one. "Capt. Cherry told me, 'You'll be happy to be on this mission,'" Bartek said. In the dim light of an October evening in Hawaii, Bartek saw a jeep pull up next to his B-17 and discharge two passengers -- one an Army colonel, the other a civilian using a cane and wearing a fedora -- who climbed into the bomber. The man with the cane was the renowned Capt. Eddie Rickenbacker. The colonel was Rickenbacker's old friend and aide, Col. Hans Adamson. The secret mission was to transport the two men to Port Moresby, New Guinea, to give a classified message to Gen. Douglas MacArthur, commander of the Pacific Forces. "The mission started poorly when the plane ground-looped at takeoff," Bartek said. "No one was injured and a spare aircraft was made available, finally taking off at 1:30 a.m." Because of low cloud cover, Cherry brought the bomber down low well before the scheduled arrival time. The crew kept an eye out for New Guinea, yet by the time they were supposed to land, no islands were sighted. When Cherry called the island's airfield to request assistance they announced the equipment needed to do this was not yet assembled. "With one hour of fuel left, Capt. Cherry decided to put the plane down into the trough of a wave," Bartek said. Making a quick choice between his personal photographs and his New Testament, Bartek remembered what his Mom once told him: "Someday you will have to depend on God for help and not man." Taking the book, Bartek climbed out of the plane and into a life raft. With all six crewmembers and the two passengers off the plane, three life rafts were lashed together. Adamson's back was injured in the landing and he lay in the bottom of the raft with Rickenbacker and Bartek. No fresh water was available and the only food salvaged from the B-17 was four oranges. By the time Bartek whispered the prophetic Scripture six days later, all the oranges were gone. After eating the uncooked flesh of the bird, Adamson, still in pain, asked Bartek for his Testament and again read the passage, this time, so all eight could hear it. A short time later, a rain shower suddenly passed over the survivors. Quickly, the men found anything they could use -- including their underwear -- to soak up the fresh water. They passed the soaked clothes to Rickenbacker who squeezed the water into two buckets. One week later another seagull landed on Rickenbacker. "Holding the bird in his hand, Eddie asked if we really needed to kill this one because we still had plenty of bait to fish with," Bartek said. In an act of incredible faith, eight men floating in the middle of the ocean with no guarantee of future meals, released the gull. On Day 12, the only fatality of the mission occurred. Sgt. Alexander Kaczmarczyk, a flight engineer who had been sick for several days prior to the mission and was recovering when the crash occurred, died. "The navigator said a prayer, and we slipped Kaczmarczyk's body overboard," Bartek said. "I kept the engineer's jacket to keep warm at night." While the days were scorching, at night the temperatures plummeted. At one point during their trial, Bartek was alone in the one small raft at the end of the line of three. He noticed the small one seemed to act like an anchor, pulling the whole caravan back as they passed over the waves. During the night, he cut himself loose from the rest, hoping they would make better time. "I can last at least five days," Bartek said he thought to himself. "By morning, though, I heard someone calling 'John!' and saw the other rafts only two city blocks away. Rickenbacker asked me to come back and join them, so I rowed back to the group and got in the raft with Eddie." The group untied the rafts and split up to increase their chances of rescue. "Eddie, I hear a plane," Bartek said with barely enough strength to lift his head and see two planes flying toward the raft he shared with Rickenbacker and the colonel. The planes flew directly over them, circled back and rocked their wings, telling the castaways they had been seen. Unfortunately, a rainstorm was coming and the planes couldn't land. The next day, a Navy patrol boat arrived. Cherry and the other three had already been picked up and taken to the closest island, Funa Futi. As Bartek and Rickenbacker got off the boat at Funa Futi, Rickenbacker handed Bartek his Bible that he had recovered from the raft when they were rescued. (Courtesy of Air Mobility Command News Service) Tom Robison ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:23:34 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Rickenbacker Incident >I'm confused about what island the Japanese had taken just two weeks before. >Surely not Funafuti, but if the Japanese held Nukufetau why weren;'t they >captured? > >Also, can you post the dates they went down and when they were found? I'd >like to see how that corresponds with Swan's wanderings. This is from the Adamson book. It's a little hard to sort out the accounts of what happened to the people in each of the three rafts. It's actually the pilot of the Navy Kingfisher that picked up Rickenbacker, Bartek, and Adamson himself who told them they were, (quoting the book) "some forty miles from Funafuti, which had been taken by the Japs only two weeks before." Now that you point it out, it seems unlikely that this is true. I don't think the Japs got further south than the Gilbert Islands. In essence they didn't get south of the equator. So much for what we read in books! And a book written by a guy who was in the plane with the Lieutenant Commander William F. Eadie who picked them up and is supposed to have said it! I guess Adamson would have said the Japs were on Funafuti but not on Nukufetau even though it was very near. But I don't think they were in either place. According to Adamson's book, they went down in the afternoon on Oct. 21, 1942. They were picked up on Nov. 13, 1942. Those dates seem right. The newspaper article saying thay had been found was dated Nov. 14th and it stated that they had gone down on Oct. 21st. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:28:13 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: dementia >Can you imagine what would happen if the Weekly World News got hold of >this? That's the lord's truth. I've already been averting my eyes in the supermarket check-out lines. LTM TK ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:18:12 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Financial Report as of 9/1/98 Back on July 19th we launched a campaign to raise $50,000 by August 31 "to get us out of the woods and on track towards Niku IIII." As incentives for contributions we offered: A "sale" on new memberships - two years for $70 (regularly $80). A "sale" on renewals - same deal New T-shirts - the forum Love to Mother shirt and the Noonan Project shirt New highly-detailed models of Earhart's Lockheed 10E Special. We also, of course, encourage outright charitable giving. TIGHAR is a recognized 501 (c)(3) Public Charity and contributions are tax deductible within the limits of the law. We did not reach our $50,000 goal. We did, however, raise $17,221.30 which at least alleviated the funding crisis we were facing earlier in the summer. Here's how the contributions broke down: We sold $4,396.25 in merchandise, the most significant item (dollarwise) being the Electra model. At present we have eleven orders which gives us the horsepower with the manufacturer to produce a really accurate airplane. I'll be putting out a separate posting on this exciting project. The membership and renewal sale was a big success. Twenty-six new memberships brought in $1,455 and renewals brought in another $5,215 for a total of $6,670. TIGHAR's total active membership as of September 1st was 710, up 25 from July 1st. In addition to the merchandise sales and membership revenue, TIGHAR received $6,085.05 in outright charitable contributions. These were not corporate of foundation grants. These were ordinary TIGHAR members making tax-deductible donations to a non-profit organization they believe is doing important work. The remaining $70 in the $17,221.30 total came from media fees (in this case, the use of TIGHAR photos in a chidren's TV show) Although the numbers are not as high as we want and need for them to be, the breakdown does provide some interesting information about where and why TIGHAR is funded. Our most important source of money is from membership, both new and renewal. It is the essence of the organization and must continue to grow if we are to realize our potential. If you enjoy this free forum and recognize that good, important work is being done here, you should join TIGHAR. We need you. It is also apparent that the TIGHAR membership does not see the organization as merely a place to buy neat stuff (although the sale of well-written and thoroughly-researched historical publications, commemorative collectables and unique wearables will always be an important aspect of servicing the membership). The level of charitable giving as compared to sales tells us that the members understand that their organization is not just researching history, but also making it. We must be doing something right. But we weren't kidding when we said we needed $50,000 to stay on track toward Niku IIII, the big 40-day expedition to Nikumaroro scheduled for the spring of 2000. Just today I received the quote for our ship charter for that trip. The cost will be $168,000 plus food and fuel. To hold our dates (April 29 to June 8, 2000) we need to put up a deposit of $8,400 as soon as possible. The deposit will be fully-refundable up until one year prior to departure, which should give us time to get our grant applications in and reviewed for the Voyage of Discovery educational program. But our first priority right now is to get that deposit covered. Fortunately, one of our Board members has come up with a very generous offer which, with your help, could make that possible. I'll tell you all about it in a separate posting very soon. Now, let's get back to work...... Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:36:53 EDT From: Chester Baird Subject: Re: FBI I am to believe that an endeavor as covered as the AE FN flight was with two American citizens aboard, that disappears with a trace and the FBI did not do an investigation. This is a bit hard to accept, but could be true. I am not a conspiracy buff, but the FBI at that time was fighting for an excuse to increase power, if my memory serves me correctly. The only reason in my mind that the FBI would not do an investigation is because they were told to keep hands off, or if another government investigative body were doing the investigation. I truly hope I am wrong. LTM Chester *************************************************************** From Ric Let me try to reassure you that you are wrong. Another government body was indeed doing the investigation. The United States Navy, assisted by the Coast Guard, devoted a remarkable amount of energy and assets (and ultimately took a lot of flak about the cost) to finding the missing flyers. The occurrence was never considered to be anything but an accident involving private citizens on a purely civilian, commercial venture. The country was not at war, nor was war considered to be imminent. Earhart disappeared in a region of the Pacific dominated by the U.S. and Great Britain. Even today, the FBI does not get involved in aircraft accidents unless there is some reason to suspect foul play. There wasn't and they didn't. No mystery. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:05:29 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: 2-2-V-1, etc. You were having a problem with the identification of the repairs to AE's plane vis Lockheed's written instructions vs photos. I learned to do sheetrock repairs from the pros. They will take a damaged piece of sheetrock and rather than replace a large segment (going from stud to stud) they will add a piece of wood behind a damaged section, attaching it to the existing sheetrock with screws. Then they will put a patch in the hole, attaching it to the wood with screws, then finish out the wall. It occurred to me that this might explain the inconsistencies between the photos and the plans. If I owned a nice plane like that, I would not want it to look patched. So let's say that they put the additional stringers and patch in according to plans, but recessed it just enough to accept a cover plate that would match the original skin in detail and hole pattern. This would account for the thinner metal used and the difference between the photos and the plans, at least in theory if not in actuality. Also, the unknown structure shown in the photo looks vaguely like a handle. Could they have make this some type o hatch? If so, what would be its purpose? I had another question, too. It seems to me that I read that AE's plane was originally a 10-A, but after the Hawaii crash, they upgraded it to the P&W Wasp Senior engines, thus making it a 10-E. If that is the case, are we sure that the cowlings were the correct 10-E cowlings? As to the trek to Niku. Considering the cost to transport so many folk to that part of the world, why not take a smaller team and hire the locals, transporting them from Kanton to Niku at a smaller cost. You would get a group of people more acclimated to the rigors of the island life and perhaps better equipped for some of the physical requirements. That is how most archeological digs that I am familiar with work. Also, for the water and gasoline supplies - couldn't you arrange with one of the charters in the area to drop off supplies over a period of time when other work takes them in the vicinity thus saving space on the last trip for items that have to be carried in then? They could drop off drums of water and gasoline, storing them inland in a relatively safe area where they would be available to the search team. Regarding the island guru's wife's remark about the "spirit" she saw conversing with "ancients". I jokingly remarked once that we wouldn't find AE because she had been taken aboard an alien "mother ship" along with Fred and the Lockheed. Now we have two things that tie this in. The "Love to Mother (ship)" and now "ancients". Many believe that the American Indians call "Anastazi" called a group of what was believed to be space aliens the "ancients". So we have AE conversing with space aliens "ancients" on the island several years after her initial disappearance. Wait til the tabloids get this one. NOT! But there are some crazies out there that would try to take this and run with it. Good laugh for those of us with a smidgeon of sanity left. Love to Mother, Dave Bush #2200 *************************************************************** From Ric About 2-2-V-1: I think that our licensed airplane mechanics on the forum will tell you that the sort of cosmetic repair techniques common in the sheetrock business are not used in aviation. About the cowlings: Earhart's plane was never a 10A. It was built as a 10E. You may be thinking of Linda Finch's Electra which was a converted 10A (despite her claims). About the trek to Niku: There are no ships already out there so you have to charter a ship big enough to safely travel across 1,000 miles of open ocean. A ship big enough to do that is big enough to take the team we need. The expertise we need is aviation and archaeology-oriented. The local folks don't have that. Other charters can not drop off supplies for us at Niku because, generally speaking, there are no other charters. Nobody goes to or even near Niku but us and an occasional Kiribati government survey (none scheduled that I know of). Our charter vessel of choice, Nai'a, is capable of carrying what we need. Aliens: Now that you mention it, 2-2-V-1 does exhibit damage typical of that caused by a photon torpedo. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:48:55 EDT From: Ted Subject: AE SURVIVAL - ABSURD We've already established the fact that drinkable water was not and is not available on Niku and survival without water is impossible. Coconuts provide the water needs of native populations on desert islands until rain supplements can be collected. They know how and are equipped to meet their needs. How can anyone even consider that the 'poor little rich girl' AE would have enough survival skill knowledge to last 30 days, much less 2 years, on such an equatorial island? *************************************************************** From Ric I argued both sides of this one. The great, and still not late, Harry Maude finds the notion of AE's demise on Nikumaroro incredible specifically because he can not imagine why anyone would have difficulty thriving on such a lovely island. It was Harry who, as Lands Commissioner for the Gilbert & Ellice Islands Colony, conceived and executed the Phoenix Islands Settlement Scheme in the late 1930s. He went on to become the pre-eminent authority on Micronesian culture. In my view it all comes down to rainfall and not getting hurt. There's plenty to eat and if it rains often enough, you should be okay unless you fall on the coral, get bitten by a shark, fall out of coconut tree, or eat a toxic fish. We do know that 1938 was a year of record-setting drought in the area. On the whole, I'd bet against anyone lasting two years marooned on Niku at that time, but I can't say it would be impossible. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:32:36 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: 2-2-V-1, etc Ric: Concerning the repairs to AE's plane, I didn't mean that they would use the exact methods used in sheetrock, only that if they had to add the stringers and a piece of new skin, why not do a little cosmetic work at the same time. The artifact is thinner than the rest of the aluminum used in the aircraft, but two sheets would actually be thicker. You are right about the experts being able to shed more light on it and I would like to hear their opinions. As to AE's plane being a 10-E, one of the conspiracy books that I read years ago had mentioned that her engines prior to the crash on Hawaii were Wasp Jr's and were replaced with Wasp Sr's. Ostensibly this was to increase the range and speed so she could over fly the Solomons for spy work. I had at least figured they would get the info correct about that, even if the rest was all off base. So much for expecting the truth from the conspiracy folks. I knew Finch's had been upgraded from the info on the forum. Its probably been mentioned that AE's was an original 10-E, but preconceived notions can drive out the facts. That is why I'm glad the forum is working so hard to disseminate the truth and use the empirical data of the scientific method. The truth is much more fun than fiction. It is always consistent. Love to Mother, Dave Bush #2200 ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 14:20:05 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Goerner's friend Game With the help of a forum subscriber I was able to phone Fred Goerner's former associate Ross Game. You may recall that Game was with Goener in 1965 when they reviewed then-classified Navy files which, according to Goerner, included a message from Earhart allegedly heard by Nauru at 10:30 a.m. on the morning of July 2nd saying, "Land in sight ahead." Goerner later said that when the file was declassified the message mysteriously disappeared. He said he was sure that the message was originally there because his notes and Games completely agreed about its content. My primary interest in talking to Ross Game was to confirm that these two contemporaneous written accounts of what was in the Navy file in 1965 indeed exist. I regret to report that Ross Game, who seems to be a very nice guy, is in poor health and was scheduled to go into the hospital for a biopsy on a brain tumor the day after I talked to him. He told me that he has been working on the Amelia Earhart mystery for 30 years and is convinced that she was held prisoner by the Japanese on Saipan and died there of dysentery. He is also certain that the government is holding back information. He says that he is sure that, while working with Goerner, he saw a great many documents relating to Earhart that have never been made public. I asked him if he ever saw any document which established a covert relationship between Earhart and the government. He said no, but there are just too many people on Saipan who remember seeing a woman who could only have been Amelia Earhart. I asked him whether he remembers seeing the "land in sight ahead" message and he said, "I could say yes but to tell you the honest truth I've talked about that so often with so many people that now I don't know whether I'm remembering the message or the story about seeing it." I asked if he had the notes that Goerner referred to. He said no. So "land in sight ahead", at this point, lives only in the realm of anecdote. Maybe Wiley Rollins can find Fred's notes from that visit at the Nimitz Museum. That would be something anyway. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:43:27 EDT From: Forest Blair Subject: Amelia's comment on Gurr's photo Amelia's "To Joe Gurr with 500KC's of appreciation" comment just before her fatal flight seems almost prophetic. Will need our resident radio historian's assist on this, but here goes. As a radio tech in the USCG at tailend of WW2, am almost certain our radio operators were required to constantly guard (listen to) the emergency (SOS, Mayday) frequency of 500KC's. If our radio expert confirms that use for that frequency, Amelia in effect said to Gurr something like, "thanks for saving my life" when she autographed that photo. A bit spooky! It also indicates she knew enough about radio to call for help if she could. Forest #2149 *************************************************************** From Ric As I understand it, at that time 500 Kc was the international distress frequency and was monitored by ships. Now that you mention it, the notation does seem to make sense in the context of Gurr's description of what he did for AE. He says he moved the dorsal mast forward, thus lengthening the V antenna enough to permit her to use it for 500 Kc transmissions and allowing her to dispense with the heavy and awkward trailing wire. My guess would be that her appreciation is for saving weight by letting get rid of that darn trailing wire. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:23:52 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Nei Manganibuka You know, in reading what I have of the traditional literature, I have yet to find the actual story of NM coming from Niku, etc. etc.. Is it in Grimble? I know Laxton quotes it, but I don't know where it actually comes from. One story I have run onto has the ancestral Gilbertese, on Samoa, going out to Nikumaroro and making war, catching folks, and eating them. In this story Nikumaroro is apparently a biggish island with lots of edible people. Not that it matters, just sort of interesting. **************************************************************** From Ric So far, I haven't found any mention of Nei Manganibuka in Grimble's "Tungaru Traditions." She's not in the lists of big league ancestors, but Grimble did most of his work in the northern Gilberts and the Niku gang were from the southern islands. I did find one reference to the term "mangan-i-buka" as describing a ritualistic object used in a ceremony. It means literally "branches of the buka tree." I also came across a mention of kanawa in a discussion of traditions associated with pregnancy. "When a woman was known to be pregnant her condition was kept secret, for fear of those who by sorcery might contrive the death of mother and child. The remains of all her food were retained, as was everything that touched her body. When it was visible to all that she was pregnant a piece of land was prepared for her on the ocean beach. To this she was taken for the ceremony called "eremao" (cutting of the mao scrub), with the incantations called eremao and marainai. She was given to wear a girdle made of the bark of the kanawa tree twisted into strands. This was when she was in her sixth month." The association of kanawa with women, pregnancy, and protection is interesting. It could be that Mrs. Koata's visit to the kanawa grove was occasioned by the need to cut some bark for her own or a friend's pregnancy. Kanawa is clearly not just a "valuable hardwood." It's powerful stuff. Here's another interesting tidbit from Grimble. As those of us who have spent time with the Gilbertese (now known as the I-Kiribati) know, we Europeans (bet you Americans didn't know that you are Europeans) are known as I-Matang. I just found out why. According to Gilbertese tradition, there is a land far to the west called Matang and the beautiful people who live there have red skin. Virtually every one of the Gilbert Islands has a district called Matang in honor of this legendary place. It's a big deal. When the first whites showed up they were assumed to be I-Matang because of their red skin (hey, when I'm out there I'm sure more red than white) and the name stuck. Ain't that neat? LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:28:32 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Rickenbacker Incident Given average current speeds (0.5 knots) and direction (to the NW) in the region south of the Equator, one can guesstimate where the plane went down relative to the island where the raft was sighted and how long they were in the water. It is not a great guesstimate, but better than pure speculation. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:34:49 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: Photo of Gurr and AE Well, I almost had a scoop. Since you had seen the Al Gray article, you gave me a break but I'm not done with you yet. I am getting a bit gun shy with regard to info I come across and may want to convey to the Forum. Lets use the Al Gray article as an example. You indicated Gray's article is full of conjecture stated as fact without documentation. Taking into consideration that were dealing with "historical investigation," I still have to come to Gray's defense. My reason, Al Gray knew these people personally and WAS PART OF THAT ERA and not some third person doing a research paper for an article some 60 yrs. hence. I think this fact alone should give the article and its contents some worth. Sure the John Ray photo is recent but that does not make the information he supplied invalid. Why should John Ray give his friend invalid info? These guys all knew each other even though they worked for different companies. I don't understand why you call the info anecdotal when it was person-to person. If I was Al Gray talking to John Ray, I would accept his statement as fact and that's what Al did. I consider that competent evidence. I could see you asking me for documentation if I had written the article but these guys were there in 37. I think one has to know the character/integrity of the person they are dealing with and a special trust or bond is developed. Then, information that is communicated within that bond is accepted as fact. I sense this with you and certain people you talk to on the Forum. It's interesting to note the month the trailing antenna and associated gear was removed in the Al Gray article (May) is the same as the month you have on your "trump" photo. Is it not possible the body work was done at the repair facility in Burbank and the trailing antenna was removed when AE arrived in MIA (remove the antenna end weight and push the wire into the body in Burbank)? John Ray, a radio tech comes along and does the interior work...removes the trailing wire reel, antenna connection to the WE radio equipment and control at the cockpit. Now that's conjecture but the photo you have cannot disprove it. You left the door open when you said " or at least any sign of it. He he he. Ric, I hope you can see what I am trying to convey. I know in your position you must as the good book says separate the wheat from the chaff and at times that's difficult. Anyway, I think the article is technically accurate and should have a higher acceptance value because of the authors direct contact with people from the era. Until I see something better, that's my position. By the way, I never met Al Gray. Now I'm done. Hope I'm not out of line. LTM, Jack #2157 *************************************************************** From Ric You're not at all out of line. You've provided me with an excuse to explain our approach to evidence, which is of course the entire foundation of our investigation. >I think one has to know the character/integrity of the person they are >dealing with and a special trust or bond is developed. Then, information >that is communicated within that bond is accepted as fact. I sense this >with you and certain people you talk to on the Forum. No. That is not the way it works. If I appear to accept one person's facts more than another's it is because I have learned which forum subscribers understand scientific method and can (and do) back up their statements with documentation. Of course that cuts the other way too. I hope that nobody on this forum takes my word for anything. If I can't back it up with hard evidence it's just my opinion, which is every bit as subject to error as anyone else's. We start with the assumption that people can remember things wrong. Even intelligent, well-intentioned paragons of integrity like you and me are often unable to accurately reconstruct the events of last week, let alone years ago. Maybe we remember things correctly, maybe we don't - there's just no way to tell. The only way to beat this gremlin is to write down what happened as soon as possible after the event. If somebody recognizes the importance of an event and writes down what happened in a timely fashion, we have a "contemporaneous written account." We consider that to be good evidence. Photographs are also pretty good. The camera doesn't lie, but of course, we must be careful that we don't put our own interpretations on the photo and make it something that it isn't. The Wreck Photo is a classic example of how tricky it can be to interpret a photo, and that is also why I qualified my comments about the Burbank photo not showing external signs of a trailing wire. Sometimes we're fortunate enough to have more than one contemporaneous written account. If they agree about what happened, that's pretty darned good. An example of this is the question of how much fuel was aboard NR16020 when it left Lae. Two independent authorities - James Collopy, the District Superintendent of Civil Aviation; and Eric Chater. the General Manager of Guinea Airways - each wrote letters soon after the event saying that there were 1,100 U.S. gallons of gas aboard that airplane. That doesn't mean that there were 1,100 U.S. gallons aboard, but it does mean that two guys who were there both thought that AT THE TIME. For an historical investigator, that's about as good as it gets. Unfortunately, most of the time we don't have contemporaneous written accounts and we're stuck with the notoriously fallible human memory. If you want to make it sound good you call it "oral history" or "first-person historical testimony." But "old stories" and "folklore" are equally valid terms. We use the handle "anecdotal evidence" as a neutral description. Any time anybody tells us something about an event in the past which they can not back up with a contemporaneous written account, it's anecdotal and highly suspect unless and until we can find better evidence to corroborate it. Classic example: In 1960 Floyd Kilts tells a San Diego newspaper that in 1946 a "native" on Gardner told him that bones had been found on the island. We found former residents of the island who also said that bones had been found. But we did not accept the discovery of bones as fact until Gallagher's contemporaneous written account turned up. It is apparent from his article in Naval History that Almon Gray did not understand this crucial distinction. His expertise in radio and familiarity with the procedures of the time were beyond question, but his assessment of the Lae/Howland flight was based upon assumptions gathered from anecdotes. For the radio set-up aboard the Electra he took what Joe Gurr told Fred Goerner in 1982, then put his own interpretation on it, and stated categorically that a "new receiver" was installed aboard the airplane by Lockheed. It was "an experimental model incorporating the latest improvements. Only three experimental units were built, although Bendix later marketed an almost identical design as the Type RA-1 Aircraft Radio Receiver." He then goes to describe in some detail the capabilities of this new receiver. Not once does he offer a shred of credible evidence that this device even existed. In describing the rest of the airplane's radio system he states flatly that the loop was a Bendix Type MN-20. But the August 1937 issue of Aero Digest magazine contains an article on the "Newest Developments in the Field of Aircraft Radio." I describes the "Bendix D-Fs" and notes the features of the MN-1, MN-3, MN-5, and MN-7. The MN-5 sounds most like Earhart's. There is no mention of an MN-20. He says that when the plane left the Lockheed plant it had a "250-foot trailing wire antenna on an electrically operated, remote-controlled reel at the rear of the plane. The wire exited the lower fuselage through an insulated bushing and had a lead weight, or "fish", at the end to keep it from whipping when deployed." It did not. The truth is that it had a set up similar to what Gray describes at the time of the Luke Field crash. When it came out of repair, all external evidence of trailing wire was gone. If you want to speculate that the heavy mechanism was left aboard with no way to deploy it, and carried all the way to Miami before being removed by John Ray, I have nothing to dispute that, but there is nothing but unsubstantiated anecdote to suggest that such an odd thing happened. Not to beat a dead horse, but Gray states that Earhart maintained two-way communication with the Lae radio operator, Harry Balfour, for first seven hours of the flight. This comes from a letter Balfour wrote in 1969. The available contemporaneous written accounts suggest quite the reverse. Lae sent messages to Earhart, and Lae heard some messages from Earhart, but there appears to be no evidence that Earhart ever heard anything that Lae sent. Because Gray didn't understand and follow the rules of the game he - like so many others before and since (including, on occasion, me) - applied his genuine expertise to an invalid picture and, inevitably, drew invalid conclusions. This is a tough, tough business. We'll only find the incontrovertible physical evidence we're looking for if we're correct in the conclusions we draw about where to look. No need to be gun shy about passing along information. Just ask yourself what kind of information it really is. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 09:59:44 EDT From: Jim W. Subject: Electra 10E or 10A What is the difference between an Electra 10E and 10A? The model 10 Linda Finch flew had been grounded at a small grass strip near my home for several years as a result of engine failure, and was quite a mess. It had been used for skydiving and, when local interest built up, the local papers, the owners, and the registration all called it a model 10E. Its history was, in part, as a member of the Brazilian national airline, Varig, where speculation has it that it was they who outfitted it with the 550 hp P & W engines. Jim W. *************************************************************** From Ric The only difference between the 10A and the 10E are the engines. Earhart's was a 10E Special, the "Special" signifying the addition of long-range fuel tanks. Finch's airplane (c/n 1015), accurately described, is a 10A modified to 10E standard. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 10:06:45 EDT From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Major Ed Dames >Well, he also mentioned that the U.S. economy will fail shortly and >there will be mass hysteria and much gnashing of teeth around the >world. But that was trivial compared with the REALLY BIG NEWS! The big question is....will he find the Electra before the US economy collapses or after? **************************************************************** From Ric The way I see it, the discovery of the Electra will trigger the collapse of the U.S. economy when Wall Street suddenly realizes that the underpinning of the market for all these years has actually been the sale of what-really-happened-to-Earhart books. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 10:11:53 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: FBI answer I guess whomever this is originally from isn't aware that the entire Earhart FBI file can be downloaded from their webste. I've done it-------Dick ************************************************************* From Ric We know that. The point was to see if they had any separate file on Noonan. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 10:14:24 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Nei Manganibuka "See, on the skyline far away, In layers the clouds are piling up. For, as I scatter wide the wake, It shimmers, glimmers, and it bursts Into a halo where the lands Of Matang from Tamoa lie" Verse 12, "The Master Mariner's Voyage," in An Anthology of Gilbertese Oral Tradition, compiled by Honor C. and Harry E. Maude, University of the South Pacific 1994. The traditions of Gilbertese origins given in the Anthology and elsewhere tend to have people coming from two places -- Banaba (Ocean Island) and Samoa, the latter -- and perhaps other lands to the west -- associated with Matang. Love to Manganibuka, but I still can't find much reference to her. Tom King ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:46:10 EDT From: Ted Whitmore Subject: Vegetation on Niku In Ric's message of Sept 1: Subj. Kanawa Point (long) he refers to a some trees: 1, The kanawa tree, described as a valuable hardwood tree. Several of us who were on Atafu Island have boxes as well as model canoes made of a fine grained medium to dark brown and sometimes dark and light brown mottled hardwood to which we attach the name kanava. Can you say anything about these names except that they may be dialect variations? 2, The Buka tree - any further identification or definition of these trees? In the Tokelau dialect of Samoan language the coconut tree was named "mokomoko" (pardon my phonetic spelling of a foreign word). Is the Buka tree the coconut? The coconut tree is indispensable to the island inhabitants of the tropical Pacific island. In the New Zealand Territory island the population capacity of a given island used to be based on the number of coconut trees on the island. 3. What is Scaevola? you refer to level 2, level 9, etc. 4. What is Puka? and what is the reference (sic)? Pardon my ignorance. Ted Whitmore #2169 *************************************************************** From Ric I'll pardon yours if you'll pardon mine. 1. I share your suspicion that kanava and kanawa are the same thing. I've seen wooden boxes from Atafu, some with inlaid aluminum. Johm Mims, the PBY pilot who saw an airplane control cable being used as a heavy-duty fishing line leader on Gardner in 1944/5, has similar boxes with inlaid aluminum which he says came from Gardner. I recently received a letter from a Coast Guard vet named Vermont Johnson who has a carved model canoe with metal trim which he got at Gardner. Tom King just came up with the Latin name for kanawa. It's Cordia subcordata. We should know more soon. 2. The Buka tree is Pisonia grandis. It's a large softwood tree that would remind you of a cork tree. The trunk is light colored, in some cases almost white. They can be 60 feet or more in height and, at least on Niku, tend to occur as a forest rather than just isolated trees. At one time much of the island was covered in Buka forest but large areas were cleared to make way for the village and coconut plantings. 3. Scaevola is a pernicious form of scrub vegetation known to the Gilbertese as "mao." It has long snakey, interwoven stalks topped with bright green leaves. At the ends near the leaves the stalks are soft and easily cut, but they become hard and very resilient within a few feet. Found most typically along the ocean beach, but also in large inland patches, Scaevola can form a virtually impenetrable wall of tangled, iron-hard stalks about the diameter of a broomstick. A bush knife or machete tends to just bounce off. It's too dense to crawl under and if you try to climb over the top you soon find that it won't quite support your weight and you find yourself hung up like a fly in a spider's web. The business about Level 2 or Level 9 Scaevola is a system that Tom King devised in 1989 during Niku I. The following is taken directly from his field notes for that trip: SCAEVOLA SCALE Tenth Degree: Legendary, not yet confirmed by observation. Impenetrable by bulldozers, M-1 tanks,and the mercy of God. Ninth Degree: Penetrable by bulldozers and extremely enthusiastic bushwhackers with sharp knives. Example: Southeast windward (northern) side of island. Eighth Degree: Penetrable by whackers but very slow going, very poor visibility. Examples: SE leeward side, fringes of Nutiran mudflat/sandbar complex. Seventh Degree: Like eighth and ninth but having occasional clearings and runs. Example: SE Aukaraime side. Sixth Degree: Dense fringe ca 5m wide along beach, occasional heavy patches, otherwise relatively light with many clearings and runs. Example: Central Aukaraime lee side. Fifth Degree: Dense fringe along beach, then patchy, generally open 20-30m visibility. Example: Western Aukaraime lee side. Fourth Degree: Patchy fringe along beach, widely scattered patches behind. Unlimited visibility. Example: Theoretical Third Degree: Patchy fringe along beach, no scaevola behind. Example: Lagoon shore beach behind village. Second Degree: A bush here and there. Example: Theoretical First Degree: No Scaevola. Example: The Mall, Washington, D.C. 4. Puka is the same as Buka. Some of the island languages have a B but no P and vice versa. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 12:10:05 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: Photo of Gurr and AE That was a very fair review and I accept your comments. The person that sent me the article was a personal friend of Al Gray. He is Robert Gleason who was the chap I mentioned awhile back that flew in a Lockheed L-10B in search of Wiley Post and Will Rogers. His A/c was also outfitted with special fuel tanks for the trip to Point Barrow in 1935. He is 92 years old and resides in Annapolis Md. I chat with him on the 20 meter ham band on the ARINC net. He is retired from Aeronautical Radio (ARINC) and can still send/receive CW at 35 WPM. I may ask him if Capt. Gray's wife or relative is alive and if they have any documents I could look at. As I mentioned in my note, these guys all knew each other just like I know many radio people from from all the world in my era in aviation ( 1950 - 1985 ) through AEEC and IATA meetings. By the way, my long term memory is much more accurate than my short term memory. My wife says she will verify that, ha ha ha. Tnx & LTM, Jack, #2157 *************************************************************** From Ric I wonder if we have another example of just the same thing we were talking about. As far as I know, there was no "search" for Post and Rogers. They crashed on takeoff and that was known almost immediately. And none of the 19 Model 10Bs built are shown as going to Alaska. It may be that the airplane Gleason is referring is the other Lockheed 10E Special (the only one built besides Earhart's). Originally delivered to Harold Vanderbilt in August of 1936 as the "Daily Express", c/n 1065 made the first round-trip transatlantic crossing piloted by Dick Merrill and Charles Lambie in May 1937. It then went to Alaska to help with the search for the vanished Russian transpolar flier Sigismund Levanevsky and was purchased by the Soviets. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 12:28:00 EDT From: Mike Subject: Exhaustion It has crossed my mind, and probably those of others, that Amelia must have been dog-tired when she put that aircraft down. Besides being exhausted, she must have been more than anxious at having missed Howland, at being unable to establish proper radio contact, and being unable to get an RDF fix on Itasca, so her frame of mind must have been one bordering on despair. By some accounts, she wasn't the greatest pilot ever born anyway, so it is more than likely that she would have made a rough landing. She probably hurt the aircraft, herself and Fred in the effort. If this is anywhere near correct, it may account for a lack of evidence found on Gardner, beyond what is tantalizing us all. How I wish I were a millionaire, Ric, I would be with you, boots and all. Cheers. Mike *************************************************************** From Ric Tired? Sure. Anxious at not having found Howland? No doubt. Delighted and tremendously relieved at having found a nice looking island to land on? Seems reasonable. Able to summon the skill and adrenalin to make a competent off- airport landing? She had done it before (Ireland in '32, Mexico in '35). I don't see a botched landing as a certainty or even a likelihood. As for the amount of evidence on Gardner, I'm amazed at how much there appears to be and I have a hunch there's a whole lot more once we look in the right place. For what it's worth, I wish you were a millionaire too. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 12:47:20 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Electra Models > New highly-detailed models of Earhart's Lockheed 10E Special. I must have missed where the price on this was stated. I'm very interested in this item. What would it cost? - Bill **************************************************************** From Ric Below is the original posting about the Electra models. To date we have seven orders for the Limited Edition and three orders for the Collector's Edition. I have received the prototype and, as we expected, there are several errors that need fixing. To really get it right will mean starting over with a new mold, but fortunately the volume of orders we already have makes that feasible. This week I'll be preparing a detailed set of specifications for the manufacturer, complete with drawings and photos. I see no reason not to mount these on the web site for all to see. This is going to be, without a doubt, the best model of NR16020 ever produced, and the support of the forum has made it possible. Thank you to everyone who has placed an order. LTM, Ric ************************************************************** (original post about the model) TIGHAR has made arrangements with a company that produces molded-resin scale models of classic aircraft for the creation of a 1/48th scale model of the Lockheed Model 10E Special in which Earhart disappeared. (A 1/48th scale rendition of the Electra results in an airplane with a roughly 14 inch wingspan.) The company has sent me photos of the model of Earhart's plane they have been selling and there are some inaccuracies which they have promised to correct for the TIGHAR limited edition of this model. We want this model to be as correct as possible to NR16020 as it was at the time it disappeared. The company has agreed to produce a prototype for us to inspect and spec out corrections. They'll then be ready to produce the limited edition TIGHAR model which, of course, be available only through TIGHAR. The only other models of Earhart's Electra that we're aware of are carved mahogany versions produced in the Philippines (again 1/48th scale) which we speced out several years ago. We had 50 made and we have three left. We sold about a dozen numbered examples on stands with individualized polished aluminum plaques for $1,000 as part of the fundraising for Niku II (1991). The rest were unnumbered and came with generic stands for $250. They are very attractive and more accurate than any other available model, but the molded- resin process permits better detailing and more consistency. They're also produced here in the States which makes for faster and more reliable production (it took a year to get the Philippine models in hand). The new limited edition TIGHAR models of Earhart's Electra will come with a specially-inscribed polished black acrylic stand which will include the Earhart Project logo. The price will be $395. Realistically, it could be a couple of months before these are ready for delivery (by the time a prototype is produced, we spec out the corrections, and the production run begins). We'll start accepting deposits of $100 now to reserve places in the production run - first come, first served. Balance due immediately prior to delivery. We'll also offer a special Collector's Edition in appreciation of a $1,000 contribution toward Niku IIII. Each Collector's Edition aircraft will carry a constructors number (c/n) modelled on Lockheed's original system. Earhart's airplane was c/n 1055 (the 55th Model 10 built). Collector's Edition Electras will begin with c/n 1055-1. Each aircraft will come on an individualized stand which will include the Earhart Project logo, the contributor's name and the model's c/n. We'll start accepting deposits of $250 now Collector's Edition aircraft with c/ns allocated first come first served. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 12:49:52 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Noonan Maritime info Jerry Hamilton's detailed summary of Fred Noonan's seafaring career is now available on the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org as the most recent Earhart Project Research Bulletin. Enjoy (and thanks Jerry). LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 13:22:26 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Coast Guard Reunion Apologies, but I seem to have misplaced the particulars of the Coast Guard Loran reunion in this October in Kentucky. Could one of our stalwart CG veterans please post that info? I'm trying to arrange my schedule so that I can come and bother you myself. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:24:38 EDT From: Bob Brown Subject: Re: Vegetation on Niku Just an interesting aside in that Scaveola frutescens, or Beach Berry, is used widely as an ornamental in the S. Florida area and particularly along the beaches where salt resistance is important. There seems to be a native variety and an "exotic" variety. When pruned and controlled it is quite attractive but from Ric's description it sounds like it becomes a horrendous tangle when growing wild. I have some very nice jpeg images of some of the natural stands in this area if anyone is interested. I would be happy to email them to anyone desiring to know what this stuff looks like Just email me if you want to see it. Bob ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 11:11:37 EDT From: Ted Whitmore Subject: Re: Vegetation on Niku Thanks for this very interesting info. I'm now a horticulturist and it probably means more to me than most - - except possibly the Coasties that were down there. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 11:27:25 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: Nei Manganibuka I totally admire the poetic verses which Dr. Tom King has posted, and imagine how well the would also flow if set to music, which I may soon attempt. I was (speaking of islands, poems, and lost people,) totally shocked, yet amused, when I discovered this little tidbit: while researching liturgical music sources for my position of Director of Music at Saint Pius X Church in Mount Pleasant, Pa., I found an article, written somewhat tongue-in-cheek, which asserted that the words to the hymn "Amazing Grace" could be sung to the theme song from the TV show "Gilligan's Island." I tried it, and it works. It cheapens both sources of derivation, but it works. Of course, I must remember that much humor is based upon moving something old to new surroundings. Try it, just for fun! We now return you to our regularly scheduled topics. Thanks for your patience!--Dr. Gene Dangelo :) **************************************************************** From Ric Dammit Gene! Talk about off-topic... Let's see... it works either way, (to the tune of Gilligan's Island) Amazing grace, how sweet the sound That saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now am found. Was blind but now I see. (to the tune of Amazing Grace) Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale, A tale of a fateful trip, That started from a tropic isle Aboard this tiny ship. I really like Amazing Grace to the tune of Gilligan's Island. There has been so much nonsense spread about that hymn.... But we digress. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:11:10 EDT From: Dick Evans Subject: The South East corner (long) Ric and Tom: Question? Where is "the end of the island?" I don't know where the native was when he spoke of the end. The only thing I can help you with is to say that Gardner had the shape of a tear drop. The Loran station was located on the extreme tip of the drop, which was the extreme southern end. That was the only flat place with enough room for the 600 foot ground system. Can I give you anymore fascinating information - like how exciting it was. Dick Evans ************************************************************** From Ric (I started out to answer Dick's question and it sort of got away from me, but I think I ended up someplace interesting. Read on, MacDuff.) Trying to figure out where the bones were found from the descriptions available is a real semantic carnival. Kilts (San Diego Tribune, 21 July 1960) says, "..the native was walking along one end of the island..." Gallagher (telegram of 17 October 1940) says, "Bones were found on South East corner of island about 100 feet above ordinary high water springs." Bauro Tikana, Gallagher's clerk/interpreter (fax to TIGHAR dated 12 August 1991) says, "The laborers... (in 1940) ...told me they found bones at the other end of the atoll (see map)." On a map of Niku which I had provided, Bauro circled the area he meant. It encompasses the entire southeastern quarter of the atoll (draw a line across the lagoon from a point roughly a quarter mile below -east - of the shoe site). Are all these guys talking about the southeastern tip where the Loran station was later built? Of these three descriptions, Gallagher's is clearly the most reliable. He was actually there. Let's see what other requirements the place has to fulfill to fit his description. (telegram of 17 October 1940) "Body has obviously been lying under a 'ren' tree..." So there must be a ren tree in that location. The 1939 New Zealand survey map says that the vegetation at the tip is "Puka" (Buka) and "low scrub" and "dense high scrub." No mention of ren, which is specifically mentioned in notations about other parts of the island. An aerial photo of the Loran station taken upon its completion shows that no bulldozing was done along the lagoon shore and vegetation visible there looks much like it does today - mostly scrub. No significant trees of any description. (telegram of 17 October 1940) "All small bones have been removed by giant coconut crabs which have also damaged larger ones." Unless the area has changed dramatically, which does not appear to be the case (see above), the southeast tip is not a place where coconut crabs hang out. They don't like scrub and open, hot coral rubble. They want trees to climb and dirt they can borrow into. Birgus latro, from what I have seen, is a forest dweller. (telegram of 17 October 1940) "...this part of island is not yet cleared." Not much help. The only part that had been cleared by this time was where the village was. (letter dated 27 December 1940) "..unidentified individual found on South Eastern shore of Gardner Island..." This at least tells us that the site is associated with the shoreline rather than the interior. This is consistent with "about 100 feet above ordinary high water springs." (telegram of 17 October 1940) (letter dated 27 December 1940) "...skull has been buried in damp ground for nearly a year.." Again, this sounds like a forest area and not the like the southeast tip. (letter dated 27 December 1940) "...it is possible that something may come to hand during the course of the next few months when the area in question will again be thoroughly examined during the course of planting operations, which will involve a certain amount of digging in the vicinity." I can find no indication that coconut planting was ever contemplated on the southeast tip. It's a worthless place. That's why they later let the Yanks have it. (letter dated 27 December 1940) "...the (kanawa) tree was, until a year ago, growing on the edge of the lagoon, not very far from the spot where the deceased was found." I just can't imagine a kanawa tree growing down there. Of further interest is the following from Gallagher's official Progress Report for the Third Quarter of 1940 (July-September). The report is dated 18 November 1940, so by the time he writes this he has already found the bones but has not yet shipped them to Suva. "The labourers stationed on the island have worked well and planted a large number of coconut trees but the island has not been developed in any other way. ...(A) start was also made on the construction of the Rest House which, it is hoped, will be completed before the end of November. ... It is hoped to furnish the main living room of the Rest House with furniture constructed entirely from locally grown 'kanawa' - a beautifully marked wood which abounds on the island and is being cut to waste as planting proceeds." This suggests to me that kanawa is sufficiently available as a byproduct of clearing operations that it would not be necessary to range far and wide in search of trees to cut for furniture or other uses. Wherever the kanawa tree was cut near where the bones were found is most likely to be a place where clearing operations were underway in late 1939. That is almost certainly not the southeastern tip. Aerial photography taken in late April 1939 shows only the village area cleared and planted. Kanawa Point, Aukaraime (and of course the southeastern tip) are untouched. Gallagher's Progress report for the Fourth Quarter of 1940 (October-December) states that, "Due to the very heavy rain during this period, properly organized work at any distance from the village was impossible..." Gallagher's Progress Report for the first quarter of 1941 (January - March) is the last one he filed. He reports that, "Work was also commenced on the demarcation and plotting of landholdings on the South-West side of the island..." This passage gives us a clue as to where the clearing work was being done. You can't do demarcation and plotting of landholdings until the land is cleared. Kanawa Point is within the area which could be described as the "South-West side." The next photography we have is from June 1941. The village area doesn't look much expanded from the way it looked in April of '39. We can't see the South West area, but by this time Aukaraime (South East area?) has been largely cleared and apparently demarcated (we can see what appear to be straight survey lines) but apparently not planted. So what are we to make of the apparently conflicting description Gallagher gives us: 1."South East corner" 2. a ren tree 3. giant coconut crabs 4. "...this part of island is not yet cleared." in October 1940. 5. "South Eastern shore of Gardner Island." 6. "damp ground" 7. planting operations scheduled "in the next few months" after December 1940. 8. kanawa tree Everything fits Kanawa Point except the bits about it being on the "South East corner" or "South Eastern shore." Something is wrong. Tom King originally wondered if perhaps Gallagher thought of Niku as two islands, but that does not seem to be the case. Well gang, I think I know what's going on ("Oh no!", you say. "Not another hypothesis!"). Here goes. Remember that, in October 1940, Gallagher is very much the new boy on Gardner. By his own admission he has previously spent a total of 36 hours on the island (Progress Report, Third Quarter 1940). His trip to see where the skull was found is very possibly his first excursion any distance from the west end which was the focus of all the clearing, well-digging and construction. Whether he was taken to Kanawa Point by land or by canoe, I think he thought he was someplace he wasn't. There is an illusion that happens on Niku which might sound odd if you've never been there. Because the lagoon takes a pronounced hook to the right once you pass Bauareke Passage, the whole southeastern half of the island is hidden from view to anyone on the lagoon or lagoon shore if they are anywhere in the whole southwestern part of the island (say, between Tatiman Passage and Bauareke Passage). If you've never rounded the point at Bauareke and seen the huge expanse of lagoon stretching away before you, it's easy to think that you're on the "South East corner" of the island. Lest you think that this is just Gillespie being creative, listen to what Eric Bevington says in his diary about his circumnavigation of the island in October 1937. He and his Gilbertese companions set out southward from what would later be the village area to walk around the island. From the inaccurate map they had and from what they could see from the lagoon shore they expected that it would only take a few hours. "The G'ese were full of praise for the island; the soil is certainly much more fertile than their own. When at the end of the lagoon, so the natives thought, we rounded a bend to find we were only half way. By this time, we had been going one and a half hours, beating our way through virgin bush.. (T)he G'ese were very tired and wanted to swim across the lagoon to the other side and go back. On enquiry, however, they said the end looked poor so I insisted we go to the end and see it." Ultimately they made it all the way around but it took them all day and was a very unpleasant experience. We have a copy of the 1879 map that was the only one available until about 1939 when the results of a 1935 survey were finally published. You'd never know the place was Niku and it's quite apparent that somebody looked in through the main lagoon passage and made the same mistake Bevington and, I suspect, Gallagher made. Certainly by the time Gallagher had been on the island for a while he must have realized his mistake. Maybe that's why he changed his description from "South East corner" in October to "South Eastern shore" in December. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:17:39 EDT From: Dick Evans Subject: Heel dating Gardner ain't never been the Grand Central Station of anything. In fact anybody who goes there voluntarily must be out of their mind (TIGHAR excluded, of course). Except for someone looking for AE and FN there is no good reason for anybody to go there. And I'm sure those two would rather have been someplace else. From the late 30's until the Loran construction unit arrived in 1944, I think it safe to assume that there was nobody there except the natives. Even they were moved there in the early 40's against their choice by the British trying the establish sovereignty under New Zealand. By the late 40's they had been moved off of the island because of the lack of fresh water. I also noted a few weeks ago that someone suggested that the shoe they found might have been worn by one of the natives. No way. The natives never wore shoes of any kind despite the fact that they were constantly walking on sharp coral. In fact, by the time the kids were 3 or 4 years old they already had thick calluses on their feet. By the time they were 12 or 15 the calluses were somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick and they couldn't have put shoes on if they had wanted to. Dick Evans *************************************************************** From Ric Well, actually Dick, there were quite a few European visitors to Gardner before you guys got there and the Gilbertese whom the British moved there in 1938/39 were eager settlers and they stayed until the early 1960s. But your comments about shoes are right on. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:22:37 EDT From: Dick Evans Subject: Re: engine origins I agree with your assessment that there was probably never any supply ship hauling around an airplane engine. Also, whenever a ship hit one of those coral reefs, that was the end of the ship. The only way to get them off was to cut them apart. There was a large troop transport grounded on Canton when we got there. It was one of the old President line ships, but I can't remember the name. The captain tried to run it into the natural channel to the lagoon at Canton when a Jap sub was stalking him and he was loaded with men. He hit the reef on the side of the channel. Sometime in the late 1950's I read a magazine article about a group who salvaged the ship for the scrap iron value. If there had been an engine aboard, they would have added it to the scrap iron pile. At any rate, if the engine was located at the end of the Army runway, it would have been several miles from that ship. And the way those places are, if you want to dispose of an old engine from a ship, the easiest thing is to simply throw it off the boat and no one will ever see it. So the engine you seek must have been on some other sort of conveyance. Dick Evans ************************************************************** From Ric The troop transport that went aground at Canton was the President Taylor. The story that she was running from a Japanese submarine was widespread but the truth is less dramatic. The captain just screwed up. She was indeed salvaged out in the early '50s. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:28:39 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: AE SURVIVAL - ABSURD >We've already established the fact that drinkable water was not and is not >available on Niku and survival without water is impossible. > How can anyone even consider that the 'poor little rich girl' AE would >have enough survival skill knowledge to last 30 days, much less 2 years, on >such an equatorial island? And From Ric... >I argued both sides of this one. The great, and still not late, Harry Maude >finds the notion of AE's demise on Nikumaroro incredible specifically beacuse >he can not imagine why anyone would have difficulty thriving on such a lovely >island. ****************************************************** I do not, for a moment, believe that Mrs. Koata saw Amelia Earhart. I think that was simply the kind of "vision" that are not uncommon among certain groups of people. But I do believe it very possible that AE and/or Fred might have survived indefinitely on Niku except for accidental injury. And that might already have happened in getting the plane down. For me, there is no doubt that Harry Maud knew what he was talking about. There would certainly be no problem in obtaining drinking water on an island with that much vegetation on it, even if rainfall was infrequent. The "poor little rich girl." Not so rich! Always scrambling to get enough money to be able to fly. And not so poor in capability as we often tend to speak of her. She appears not to have been up to snuff on the new fangled radio stuff, but she was not ignorant nor stupid. I think the forum often has trouble with "time shifting" and perhaps some "place shifting" as well. It's only a few weeks since I visited Amelia's birthplace and the place where she grew up for the most part. But it had not really soaked in until just now that she and I really did grow up in very similar situations. There was not enough difference in time to matter. The big changes in the world came a bit later -- with WWII. I suspect that many can not appreciate the significance of when and where Amelia grew up. She did not grow up in front of a TV set, and she attended school when the dumbing-down process had not yet set in. She was taught by teachers, not by "educators" who are quick to embrace any faddish idea that comes along so long as it does not relate to basic education. Amelia was out in the world exploring the river banks, hanging around the steamboat landing, hanging around the railroad station (she probably listened to that clacking telegraph and decided that was not for her!), and she was learning about lots of things. She knew about the "river rats" (I'm descended from those!), and the railroad "bums", and how they all survived. And she knew about the "bootleggers" and their 'stills hidden away in the woods. (That's one way to get drinking water from various sources.) Kids in those times and places knew about lots of stuff. Kids who grew up in cities didn't know much about the world. The Key to survival is often a knowledge of what is possible. Then one needs the imagination and ingenuity to do it with what is at hand. Amelia grew up in a time and place where this sort of thing was a way of life. I think she could have survived. Having an airplane to cannibalize would have made life a lot easier. Of course there is also Fred Noonan. I suspect he had learned a lot of stuff along the way, even if he may have started out a city kid! *************************************************************** From Ric Amen (and I'm just a Baby Boomer). ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:34:27 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Water on Niku Thinking of the various ways one could come by drinking water on an island such as Niku, one thing that AE and/or Fred were probably not prepared to attempt was digging a well. But the natives did dig wells and get semi=drinkable water. I wonder how this works? Here is a skinny little strip of mostly coral sand surrounded by salt-water. Substances in solution are not removed by filtration -- not unless you get down to the molecular level as in reverse osmosis. So. how does relatively salt-free water come to be present in the ground? The only thought that comes to my mind is that rainfall keeps the salt washed out of the soil and the salt-water doesn't diffuse in rapidly enough to load the whole island with salt. This suggests that during extended dry periods, the well water would become increasingly salty. If the salt reacted chemically with something, that might take it out of solution. I don't see this happening in soil that is mostly coral that has always been in the presence of ocean water. Does anyone know how this really works? ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:53:38 EDT From: Jack Subject: 10B? The a/c were definitely L-10B's. There were two of them purchased by Pan American Airways the parent company of Pacific Alaska Airways in Fairbanks. They were put into service on Fairbanks-Whitehorse-Juneau and Fairbanks-Nome routes. As I understand it, Gleason as FRO and Joe Crosson the pilot flew to Fairbanks with the L10-B then switched to a Fairchild 71 for the trip to Point Borrow and return with the bodies. Then They flew the L 10 from Fairbanks-Whitehorse-Vancouver, B.C. and Seattle. LTM, Jack, #2157 *************************************************************** From Ric No way, Jack. The Post/Rogers crash happened on August 15, 1935. The first 10B (c/n 1036) was delivered to Eastern Airlines on September 18, 1935. The 10B had the Wright R975 engine. A total of 19 were built. None went to Pan Am or any of its divisions. PAA Alaska division (Pacific Alaska Airways) bought one 10C, c/n 1006, which was delivered on November 15, 1934. (Source: "Lockheed's Model 10 Electra" by Thomas M. Emmert and William T Larkins in the Summer 1978 issue of the Journal of the American Aviation Historical Society.) ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:55:14 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Vegetation on Niku Actually, Scaevola is (we're told) used ornamentally in Kiribati, too, and the flowers used in making the local equivalent of leis. I've seen it in Hawaii and California, too. Apparently it's fine as long as you keep it under control. On Niku it is definitively out of control. LTM TKing ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:02:06 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Nei Manganibuka - The Music This has got to be a text-book case of a forum out of control!! > I totally admire the poetic verses which Dr. Tom King has posted, >and imagine how well the would also flow if set to music, which I may >soon attempt. The Gilbertese must make some kind of noises that we call their music. All cultures make noises and call it music. So, fire up the synthesizer and give it a Gilbertese flavor! They probably dance too, so it should be a music video! Is the TIGHAR bunch ready to dance... with amazing grace? No? How about with wild abandon? Probably more Gilberteseian! **************************************************************** From Ric Actually, the traditional music of the Gilbert Islanders is said to be quite beautiful and their dancing - far from wild abandon - is graceful and complex. Unfortunately, much of that culture was lost with the coming of the missionaries. When we were on Kanton earlier this year we were invited to an evening at the maneaba. We were entertained with a capella singing in wonderful harmonies, but the tunes, while nice enough, seemed to be rather plodding hymns. And, of course, there was no dancing. I had the feeling that we were hearing the faint echoes of a rich tradition that shone, perhaps unconsciously, through an overlay of dour Western influence. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:03:54 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Water on Niku Geologists have known all about fresh water on coral atolls. Fresh water is less dense than salt water. On land, rain soaks into the very porous coral limestone and sand, and creates a lens of fresh/brackish water underneath the land. All you have to do is to dig a little to the water table (preferably on the highest point of land---if on a flat atoll), but not too deep. During droughts, the water level drops, and the lens of fresh/brackish water can disappear. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:14:30 EDT From: Jeryy Hamilton Subject: Kanawa Point So, I eagerly grabbed my map (Possible Earhart Evidence On Niku) looking for this mystical place named Kanawa point. Aargh! It's not there. Where does the "X" go? Blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric The new map will soon be available for sale (just kidding). Look at the border between the island districts labeled Noriti and Tekibeia. The little peninsula sticking out into the lagoon on the Tekibeia side is Kanawa Point. The lines reaching out to either side from the end of the peninsula signify the shallows where fish are said to be trapped at low tide. We didn't label this feature previously because it is not labeled on the maps produced by P.B. Laxton. It only appears as "Kanawa Point" on the map created by the New Zealand survey. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:19:57 EDT From: Ted Whitmore Subject: Ground water on land adjacent to salt water Ground water (fresh water you can dig for) on lands near salt water, especially islands surrounded by salt water, as Niku, is dependent upon rain water falling on the land. The water soaking into the soil will hold a head pressure purely by the weight of the water contained in the soil and will hold back salt water intrusion below. This water can be obtained by wells dug or driven into the soil deep enough to get to the water but too deep you may be back into salt water. Florida is a good example of this phenomenon; rain falling on the sand ridge that basically forms the backbone of the peninsula of the state, pushes outward and keeps the Atlantic Ocean and the Gulf of Mexico from intruding into the underground aquifers or water system. In the past 50 years or so the increased demand for water due to our mushrooming population, especially in the coastal areas, has depleted the available fresh water, and the pressure thereof, in the coastal areas, forcing well drilling further and further inland to obtain non-saline water. This is a very serious problem the state is facing. The higher an island is above sea level and the better the water holding capacity of the soil, the better the chances for a good fresh water well. Niku doesn't have any of these good qualities. The elevation above sea level at the highest point is probably less than 6 meters (my guesstimate) giving little chance for much head pressure from rainwater. The soil is about as porous as you can find, mostly broken-up coral, overlaying a coral reef substructure that undoubtedly has many salt water channels in it. Thus the report that the best water found by the natives and/or Europeans was saline almost to the point of being undrinkable. All of the vegetation on Niku, as well as other areas of the world immediately adjacent to salt water, must have salt water/salt spray tolerance to grow there. Coconuts will grow very well so close to salt water they can't possibly have their roots in much of anything but saltwater. Scaveola (Scaveola frutescens), according to Bob Brown's Forum Email of 9/7, "-- is used widely as an ornamental in the south Florida area and paricularly along the beaches where salt resistance is important." ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:28:14 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Swan logs I'm still somewhat troubled (puzzled) by the change in reporting to the logs of the Swan after Dec. 1, 1942 (to "No remarks") . It can't be explained by different reporting or writing style, since the same officers signed the logs in December as in November. Any ideas? Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 ************************************************************** From Ric You make a good point. Here's one hypothesis: The war is not yet a year old and there are still changes being made from peacetime to wartime procedures. On December 1, 1942 Cincpac sends out a directive that, from here on in, don't put any information in your deck log which might be valuable to the enemy if your ship is captured. If this is what happened we should see a similar shut-down in deck log information on other Navy ships on this date. If it is only Swan that clams up then we have reason to suspect that something very unusual is going on. Maybe Randy can help us here. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:47:53 EDT From: Jim Tierney Subject: PAA Lockheeds For what it is worth-- Pan Am and its Aircraft- R.E.G. Davies source lists 6 Model 10's in possession of PAA in Alaska--Unfortunately no A B C designations. C/N 1006- NC 14259- to Cubana then to Pacific Alaska Airways- no dates C/N 1009-NC 13762- ditto C/N 1019-NC 14906- ditto C/N 1042- NC 14972- to CMA Mexico, then to PAA, Then Brazil- no dates C/N1133- NC 30077-to PAA C/N1134- NC 30078- to PAA Crosson and Gleason were based in Fairbanks- Flew Fairchild 71-NC 10623 to Point Barrow and returned with the bodies of Post/Rogers on 17 August. THEN took a Model 10-No number in my source- from Fairbanks/Whitehorse- RON Vancouver- to Seattle arriving 9AM 19 Aug with the bodies.. This from--Will Rogers and Wiley Post--Death at Point Barrow---by B Sterling and F Sterling--1993-M Evans &Co, NY.. Thats about alll---It was a slow news day and I thought I would contribute.. Jim Tierney ************************************************************** From Ric Although this is sort of off-topic, it's a good research exercise. According to the information compliled by Emmert and Larkins, the airplanes you list are as follows: C/N 1006- NC 14259 Model 10C delivered 11/15/34 to Pacific Alaska Airways C/N 1009-NC 13762 Model 10C delivered 1/9/35 to Pan American Aviation Supply Corp. and later (no date) became NM-15 of Cia Nacionale Cubana de Aviacion C/N 1019-NC 14906 Model 10C delivered 4/18/35 to Pacific Alaska Airways and later (no date) became NM-26 of Cia Nacionale Cubana de Aviacion (converted to 10E). C/N 1042- NC 14972 Model 10E delivered 12/6/35 to Pan American Airways and later (no date) became XA-BCJ of CMA/ Aerovias Centrales. C/N1133- NC 30077 Model 10E delivered 2/14/39 to Servicio Aerero Colombiano as C-10 or C-110 and later (no date) to Pan American Airways as NC30077. C/N1134- NC 30078 Model 10E delivered 2/14/39 to Servicio Aerero Colombiano as C-10 or C-110 and later (no date) to Pan American Airways as NC30078. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:59:17 EDT From: Dick Merrill Subject: Re: Water on Niku >Thinking of the various ways one could come by drinking water on an island >such as Niku, one thing that AE and/or Fred were probably not prepared to >attempt was digging a well. But the natives did dig wells and get >semi=drinkable water. I wonder how this works? > Fresh water is often available on islands with sufficient rainfall. Freshwater is less dense than seawater and a lens of freshwater will float on top of the salt water in the aquifer. Dick Merrill Houston ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:38:59 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: The meaning of LTM For new forum subscribers who may be wondering what this Love to Mother (often abbreviated to LTM) business is all about, here's the story: A few years ago, a woman named Patricia Morton was doing Earhart research at the National Archives and stumbled upon a telegram dating from 1945 which contained a whole list of messages to friends and relatives from internees at a recently-liberated camp in China. One was addressed to Mr. G.P. Putnam, 10042 Valley Spring Lane, North Hollywood, California The text reads: Following message received for you from Weihsien via American embassy, Chungking: Camp liberated; all well. Volumes to tell. Love to mother (*). The (*) is explained at the bottom of the page as meaning signature omitted. The State Department forwarded the message to Putnam via SpeedLetter (a type of quick-notice letter) on August 28, 1945. The letter was sent by Eldred D. Kuppinger, Assistant Chief, Special War Problems Division. The document has no stamp to indicate that it was ever classified, nor does it have a stamp indicating that it was ever declassified. Anyone who has ever obtained formerly classified documents at the National Archives knows that they are real careful about that. There appears to be no indication that the document was ever classified. That's hardly surprising given the explanation of what a SpeedLetter is, which appears in the upper right corner of the document; "This form of communication is used in the interest of speed and economy. If a reply is necessary, address the Department of State, attention of the Division mentioned below." In Putnam's reply he merely updated his address and asked to be notified if anything else was heard. Weihsien was not a prisoner of war camp. It was a Civilian Assembly Camp - an internment camp. According to a 1995 letter by one of the American soldiers who liberated Weihsien on August 17, 1945 there were no Japanese military personnel in charge of the camp. It was run by a Mr. Izu of the Japanese Consular Service. All internees were well documented. Amelia Earhart was not there. On the 18th a general inspection was made of the camp and twelve internees were hospitalized and selected for early departure due to poor health. They were evacuated by C-47 on the 28th, the date of the telegram and the SpeedLetter. Why was such a message sent to Putnam? Sadly, it was most likely a hoax. In the years following Amelia's disappearance GP was beset by dozens of false leads and scams. Some were financially motivated. Others were apparently just cruel jokes. Whether the Weihsien message was a joke or a mistake, it's quite clear that it was not from Amelia Earhart. Nonetheless, the letter is frequently held up by conspiracy theorists as evidence that Earhart was "captured" by the Japanese, held prisoner, and returned to the U.S. after the war. This telegram and the nonsense which has surrounded it in recent years has prompted those of us most involved in TIGHAR's Earhart research to adopt the "Love to mother" closing as a reminder to keep our objectivity and skepticism intact when evaluating any new evidence. Love to mother, Ric You can order your very own Love to Mother shirt and refrigerator magnet on the TIGHAR website at http://www.tighar.org ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:59:54 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Kanawa Point (long) I would appreciate a clarification on two geographic points from your long Kanawa Point message. In the first Tom King missive, he says: "The southeast end of the latter would be Tekebeia, east of Baureke Passage". According to the map from TIGHAR Tracks, isn't this west of Baureke Passage? In your message to Tom on 8/29, you talk about the two peninsulas: the skinny one and the larger one just beyond which goes out into the lagoon. I have difficulty understanding exactly what you are describing, since I only see a single large peninsula jutting out from tidal flats, otherwise known as Kanawa Point. If I am confused, with access to both the Tighar Map and the Kiwi Map, I am sure others are too! Thanks for any clarification *************************************************************** From Ric Yeah. We're suddenly taking great interest in geographic features which, until now, were of little or no interest. Let me see if I can clarify things a bit. Yes, as shown on the map sent to all TIGHAR members (Possible Earhart Evidence on Nikumaroro), Tekibeia district is west, not east, of Bauareke Passage. The Kanawa Point peninsula is the one which sticks out into the lagoon just east of the marked border between Noriti and Tekibeia. The "skinny" peninsula Tom and I were referring to barely appears on that map. It's the little spike that sticks out into the tidal flat parallel to the shoreline in Noriti district. In reality its a bit longer and skinnier than that - more like a broad sandbar. Hope that helps. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:01:35 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: PAA Lockheeds Pacific Alaska Airways became a subsidiary of PAA in the 1930's. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:04:37 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Swan Logs Sorry, but I cannot help out too much, as I have not detailed WWII procedures during my research. You might want to check the Naval Historical Center, however. **************************************************************** From Ric Good idea. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:06:44 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: 10B? Well, your date of Nov. 1934 is accurate and I reserve further response until I follow up on the a/c types. I could have sworn they were B's..... Checking... Jack, #2157 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:42:17 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Swan logs Ric wrote >The war is not yet a year old and there are still changes being made from >peacetime to wartime procedures. On December 1, 1942 Cincpac sends out a >directive that, from here on in, don't put any information in your deck log >which might be valuable to the enemy if your ship is captured. > >If this is what happened we should see a similar shut-down in deck log >information on other Navy ships on this date. If it is only Swan that clams >up then we have reason to suspect that something very unusual is going on. >Maybe Randy can help us here. I've posed this question to the Mahan Naval History list. If there was a directive from CINCPAC of 1 Dec 1942 regarding deck logs, someone thereon will know. I'll let ya know what they say. Tom *************************************************************** From Ric Sounds good. Standing by. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:47:47 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Model 10 Model As Ric indicated a few weeks ago, Williams Bros. has released a new model kit of a Lockheed Model 10. It doesn't say it is a 10E, but the description says "Special Historical Production, Flown by Amelia Earhart". It is listed in the Squadron Mail Order catalog supplement for September, item number 9-WB53198. suggested retail is $27.50, introductory sale price is $22.96. You can order from Squadron's online catalog. I think it's squadron.com or something like that. A web search for "Squadron Mail Order" will find them. The kit is listed as 1:53 scale, a really weird scale, but I suppose some 1:48 detailing parts could be used, i.e. 1:48 scale PW R1340 engines and H.S. 9' props are available from AeroClub. (might want to use a 9-1/2' prop to cover the difference in scale) The Question is, where can one find some accurate, detailed, color photos or renderings of AE's 10E? Ric, any color photos in back issues of TIGHAR Tracks? How about starting a new section on the web page, with detail photos of the aircraft, especially for modelers? Shots of the landing gear, engines, antenna locations, windows, special paint, etc. 'Twould be a great service for modelers worldwide. Love to Mother, Tom #2179 P.s. I have no vested interest in Squadron Mail Order nor any of their affiliates or subsidiaries. No doubt this kit will be available soon at your local hobby shop or from other mail order firms. *************************************************************** From Ric As a matter of fact I'm working on that right now. Hope to have it ready within a week or so. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:51:06 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Miami article This from the Miami Herald. I don't have a good date, but believe it to be 1944. "About a month after Amelia Earhart's last anxious radio call, when a watchful world had resigned itself to her loss in the wide wastes of the South Pacific, a post card arrived for Art Curtis in Miami from the navigator who had been aboard, his friend Capt. Fred Noonan. The card had been posted in Calcutta. Noonan, a tall, blond (?), quiet chap, had started out as a seaman before he became an aerial navigator with Pan American Airways. Neither he nor Amelia were adept at CW, or code. Radio transmission and weather data being furnished them in flight had to be relayed vocally by a Miami radio station as long as they were in this part of the world. There wasn't too much publicity about the sudden takeoff shortly before 6 A.M. that June morning. Nobody knew until the last minute that the second world-girdling attempt, described as a 'pleasure trip,' was to be started here instead of Oakland, Calif. where a try three months previously had ended with a crash in Honolulu. On May 25, Amelia and her husband, George Palmer Putnam just ' dropped in' supposedly while on a shakedown flight from New Orleans in the plane." Pan-Am buffs: does anyone know anything about Art Curtis? Smooth Sailing Ron Dawson 2126 *************************************************************** From Ric I wonder what prompted the newspaper article in 1944? ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:07:46 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Noonan Project I just had a very pleasant conversation with Mrs. Lillian Crosson, 90, who now lives in Seattle. Her late husband, Joseph Crosson, was manager of Pacific Alaska Airways (Pan Am's Alaskan division) and knew Fred Noonan quite well. Mrs. Crosson can not say for sure whether she ever met Noonan herself. If she did it would have been at a PAA social event somewhere. She does remember that upon completion of his world flight with Amelia it was planned that Fred would come visit Joe in Fairbanks and they would go hunting together. "That was a big deal in those days." It was her impression that Noonan had only taken a leave of absence from the company and intended to return to Pan Am after the flight. She never heard any reference to Noonan having a drinking problem. Mrs. Crosson has papers and photographs from her husband's distinguished aviation career but does not know if they containany reference to Noonan. She would be happy to give a TIGHAR researcher access to that collection. Did we ever come up with a Noonan Project researcher in the Seattle area? LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:40:50 EDT From: Harold Mendelson Subject: Canton Island I have two comments concerning recent postings involving Canton Island. Regarding the comments you and Dick Evans made about the President Taylor going aground on Canton. I was aboard the Taylor when it arrived at Canton on 13 Feb 1942. . There was no talk aboard the ship that we were being stalked by a Japanese sub, and at the time I'm sure there was no channel into the lagoon that would have accommodated a 20,000-ton ship. The captain of the ship did not screw up. What actually happened was that we anchored off shore and my outfit and some other units immediately went ashore in small boats to occupy and fortify the island. That night a typhoon struck and blew the Taylor onto the reefs. Those of us who were on shore were ordered to wade out into the surf to assist any personnel still aboard the ship should they abandon the ship and try to swim ashore. It was a prudent precaution, but turned out to be unnecessary. The ship's captain later committed suicide. . Since the Pearl Harbor attack had happened only two months earlier and the US was in a hurry to occupy Canton before the Japanese did, it is highly unlikely that AE's engine was aboard the President Taylor. Ric, you are so right in taking anecdotal comments with a grain of salt. In a recent posting, someone quoted one of the Rickenbacker survivors as saying that while they were trying to find Canton, they had asked Canton to fire their antiaircraft artillery into the air and that it had been done. I was a member of the Canton antiaircraft artillery battalion and also worked at Task Force HQ with part of my duties handling radio communications. Their request for the artillery fire may have been received without my seeing it, but I'm sure I would have remembered had we fired our guns. Obviously just another false rumor. Harold Mendelson *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks for the corrections Harold. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:44:16 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: Noonan Project Regarding the Seattle research assistance - no joy. No one has stepped forward from the Forum. We have a couple of inquiries to friends of friends that we are still hoping might pan out. Blue skies, -jerry >Did we ever come up with a Noonan Project researcher in the Seattle area? ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:47:35 EDT From: Clyde Miller Subject: Re: Swan Logs The absence of logs are apparently not that uncommon. My Father's ship CA69 USS Boston has missing logs for August 23-27 1945 with some questions about their disappearance. As a Heavy Cruiser the Boston was a front line ship often with a flag aboard....SO....if the logs are missing from there...it must be pretty common to disappear on a smaller vessel. Just a thought....Also, the Boston had a war record and a daily log....often the same material was copied in both...would this be true of the Swan? Thanks Clyde *************************************************************** From Ric This is a different situation. The logs are not missing. We have copies of the log. They just don't say anything except "No remarks" and routine notations of various inspections. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:03:48 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Model 10 Model Throughout all of my research and that of TIGHAR, we were unaware of any color photograph of AE or her plane until someone brought it to the forum's attention. It was a color photo of AE in Oakland, I believe. *************************************************************** From Ric That's right, but fortunately we do know what color the airplane was. Of course, most of it was bare aluminum. The leading edge of the wings and the top of the horizontal tail surface was painted orange edged with a black stripe. A former Lockheed employee who now lives in Oregon salvaged a chunk of discarded tail skin when the airplane was being repaired after the Luke Field mishap. It has the orange paint and piece of the stripe. The piece has been lovingly kept for all these years so the orange paint has not faded. The color has been matched to Federal Standard 595B - 12197 December 1989. Now, here's a question. What is the equivalent PMS Standard color? We need this information so that we can be sure we get the color correct on the new models. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:09:53 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: Miami article There was an article apparently same date from the Miami Herald which reported that a New York congressman in February, 1944 was calling on the Navy to resume its search for Amelia or evidence thereof since some of the Gilberts had been liberated. The Navy was strangely silent on the idea. Will send you a copy of the article as it has an interesting photo of Fred looking pretty haggard. *************************************************************** From Ric Yeah, I'm sure the Navy had one or two other things on their mind in 1944. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:15:22 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Thanks for Info!! Thanks to all of you who very adequately answered my question about how it is that semi-drinkable water could be had from wells dug on Niku. When I get the same answer from so many people, I tend to think it must be right! Thanks Much! Your responses are appreciated. *************************************************************** From Ric (pssst. Vern, ask 'em what happened to Amelia.) ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:55:59 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Model 10 Model Ah, yes, PMS (Pantone Matching System) orange, we get a lot of calls for that color. I just pulled out my 1995 PMS chart and found about two dozen "oranges", everything from near-sunshine yellow to coral-ish. Without seeing what Federal Standard 595B - 12197 looks like or knowing its composite base color percentages (i.e. how many parts red, black, white, blue etc.), matching the Pantone would be tricky. My guess would be 804U, 804U 2X , 811U or 811U 2X. Incidentally, the terms Pantone, PMS, etc (and derivatives) are trademarked and copyrighted, like Kleenex, Xerox, Cheerios, etc.. Good luck. *************************************************************** From Ric You mean like Oreos (Sorry fellow forumers - private joke - you had to be there with Dennis in the Maine woods that day). Actually, our best guess is that the color is more like PMS 173C - really a rather dark, reddish orange. Surely all this is discoverable out there somewhere in cyberspace. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:57:44 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: The Reynolds Challenge It's time to get serious about the NIKU IIII expedition. The managers of Nai'a, the ship that served us so well for NIKU III, have reserved a 40 day slot for us from April 29 to June 8, 2000. To hold that reservation they need a deposit of $8,400 (equivalent to 5% of the total charter) as soon as possible. The deposit will be refundable up until one year prior to departure (April 29, 1999). These are very generous terms. We have grant applications in the works for major funding for the expedition and for the Voyage of Discovery educational program, but that all takes time. Our first hurdle is to lock up the ship reservation (no boat, no trip) and we need to do that right away. Meanwhile, of course, we have to continue to meet our regular operating expenses. To help us meet this urgent need, TIGHAR Board of Directors member Richard J. Reynolds (no, not THAT R. J. Reynolds), has offered to make a generous challenge grant. THE REYNOLDS CHALLENGE will match - dollar for dollar - all contributions toward the NIKIU IIII ship deposit, up to a total of $10,000. By matching your contribution, Dick is making it possible for TIGHAR to meet it operating expenses while your money goes directly toward the expedition. When we send the deposit off to Nai'a we'll also issue a framable certificate listing the names of all those who help launch this expedition. The certificate will recognize five categories of donors: Commodores - donations of $1,000 or more Captains - donations of $500 or more Mates - donations of $250 or more Bosuns - donations of $100 or more Crew - donations of $50 or more There has never been a better or more important time to make your contribution to this historic effort. The Reynolds Challenge will double your money for TIGHAR and you get a tax deduction and a certificate to show that you helped make the NIKU IIII expedition possible. You don't have to be a TIGHAR member to contribute, but of course we hope that if you're not already a member you'll take this opportunity to become one. You can send you check, payable to TIGHAR, or your credit card information to: TIGHAR Reynolds Challenge 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 You can also fax your credit card info to TIGHAR at (302) 994-7945 or phone us (302) 994-4410. The thousands upon thousands of words, and the excellent research results that grace this forum are vitally important, but the one thing that makes us different from all the other Earhart theorizers - the one thing that enables us to actually make progress in solving the mystery - is the fact that we GO and we DO and we LEARN. This is what it's all about. Please send your contribution today. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:19:40 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Welcome Tom Crouch I'd like to welcome my good friend and debating partner Dr. Tom Crouch to the forum. Tom is chairman of Aeronautics at the Smithsonian's National Air & Space Museum. He has as much "talking head" time on Earhart television documentaries as I do and, although I'm sure he didn't plan it that way, he has become the official spokesman for the "until someone comes up with a smoking gun, we have to assume that she went down at sea" position on Amelia. But Tom is first and foremost a scholar and I'm delighted that he'll be looking at what happens here on the forum. I hope he'll contribute his own questions and comments. Welcome aboard Tom! Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:18:40 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: What we know/What we suspect With a number of new forum subscribers and lots of recent research results, this might be a good time for me to rough out a quick review of what we know and what we suspect on several key issues which bear upon the Earhart disappearance. 1. Could the missing Earhart flight have reached Nikumaroro (Gardner Island)? What we know: Based upon the best available information about the airplane's fuel load at takeoff, known performance capabilities, and the progress of the flight - yes it could have. In addition, the navigational logic which would lead the flight to the island was recognized by the searchers in 1937. What we suspect: We think that, upon failing to find Howland Island, the flight flew down the line of position until it sighted land - Gardner Island 2. Was Earhart's disappearance in any way attributable to her navigator, Fred Noonan, being an alcoholic? What we know: We have, and are continuing to, track Fred Noonan's career through official documents. So far we have found no indication of a drinking problem. Quite the contrary. He enjoyed a long and successful nautical career with steady advancement in positions of respect and responsibility. We can find no anecdotal account alleging that he had a drinking problem which predates Fred Goerner's 1966 book "The Search for Amelia Earhart." Of the several living Noonan acquaintances we have interviewed, none knew him to have a drinking problem. What we suspect: It looks to us that the entire legend about Noonan's drinking is unfounded rumor which unfairly and tragically slanders the reputation of a true aviation pioneer. 3. Is the wreckage of Earhart's airplane on Nikumaroro (Gardner Island)? What we know: We have a few pieces of airplane debris recovered from the abandoned village which seem to be consistent with Earhart's aircraft and do not seem to be from any World War II type. However, none of these artifacts is diagnostic (that is, conclusively identifiable as being from Earhart's airplane). Anecdotal accounts from former residents of the island describe the presence of aircraft wreckage on the reef and in the shoreline vegetation in specific locations where aerial photography seems to corroborate the presence of metal debris. Again, none of this constitutes proof that there was or is aircraft wreckage there. The indicated spot is not among the areas searched by previous TIGHAR expeditions to the island. What we suspect: Our working hypothesis is that the Earhart aircraft was landed relatively safely on the reef-flat at Nikumaroro on July 2, 1937 only to be destroyed a few days later by surf action. Some components and pieces of the aircraft were left on the reef and the remainder was washed into the thick beachfront vegetation where it was not detected by the Navy search planes which flew over the island one week after the disappearance. Earhart and Noonan were marooned on the island and, for any number of possible reasons, were unable to make their presence known to the search planes. We suspect that the apparent pieces of the Electra we have found in the abandoned village were salvaged from the wreckage. 4. Did Earhart and Noonan die marooned on Nikumaroro (Gardner Island)? What we know: Well, somebody did. We have found contemporaneous British documents which state that sometime in late 1939 Gilbertese laborers found a skull (which they buried) and a Benedictine bottle at a specific location on the island. In October 1940 the newly arrived British Colonial Service officer learned of the discovery, had the skull exhumed, and conducted a search of the location which turned up a partial skeleton, part of the sole of a woman's "stoutish walking shoe or sandal", a box which had once contained a sextant, a part of the sexant (later lost), a campfire, and the remains of dead birds and a turtle. Suspecting that he had found Amelia Earhart, he reported all this to his superiors at the Western Pacific High Commission in Fiji. The matter was declared "strictly secret" and the bones and artifacts were ordered shipped to Fiji. In April 1941 the principal of the Central Medical School in Fiji examined the bones and reported that, in his opinion, they were those of a male of European or mixed European descent who was between 45 and 55 years of age, about 5 feet 5.5 inches in height, and of stocky, muscular build. He also said that the poor condition of the partial skeleton made his analysis difficult. As far as we know, the British were not able to explain the presence of this castaway on the island, nor why the bones were thought to be male but the shoe female. What we suspect: We suspect that the remains and artifacts found on the island were from the lost Earhart flight. Based upon various clues in the documents, we suspect that the location of the castaway's campsite was not (as we had previously thought) the same place where TIGHAR found similar artifacts in 1991 and 1997. We now suspect that the location was an, as yet, unsearched peninsula known as Kanawa Point. This same feature is associated with an old island legend about an encounter with a ghost which we think may also be tied in to the finding of bones there. 5. Is it possible that a photo exists of Earhart's wrecked Electra on Nikumaroro? What we know: A photo of uncertain origin shows a wrecked aircraft in a tropical setting which could be Nikumaroro. The airplane's structure appears to exhibit several features unique to the Lockheed Model 10 and, as yet, no disqualifying features have been confirmed. The background in the photo appears to match specific features on Nikumaroro in the place where former residents say airplane wreckage was seen. It is said that on one occasion "some white people came in a government ship... and took pictures of the airplane parts." What we suspect: The Wreck Photo may be one of those pictures. We are currently investigating a logged, but unexplained, visit to Gardner Island by USS Swan in November of 1942 during the time when the B-17 carrying Eddie Rickenbacker was missing in the general area. We have many other lines of investigation in progress which may turn up additional evidence, but this briefing should at least help new forum subscribers know what the heck we're talking about as these topics crop up. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:39:38 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Reynolds Challenge Sign me up as a Bosun for $100. Does that come with a whistle? You know, only two things in the Navy whistle? ((Punch line to follow in private.)) SMP Dennis McGee 0149 ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Den. Sorry, no whistle. I can hardly wait for the punch line. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:46:10 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: PMS colors Ah, like, yeah, Oreo is a trademarked name. If I'd hit that big Powerball for $290 Million in June, that video tape of me and the Oreos in Maine would probably pay for Niku IIII-XX!! About your PMS173C -- boy, oh, boy, that is awfully brown to be "orange". Perhaps 172C? ((For forum followers: The "C" stands for "coated," i.e. a varnish printers use to make it shine.)) Though, not knowing what your example looks like I'll take your word for 173C. SMP - Dennis 0149 **************************************************************** From Ric Well, for what it's worth, your member number is very pale orange. We could just use that. What we need to do is pin down that Federal Standard 595B. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:06:42 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Reef creature A forum subscriber recently sent me a copy of some comments by pre-eminent psychic debunker James Randi written back in March of 1997 on the occasion of the mass suicide of some loonies who thought that a giant UFO was trailing the Hale-Bopp comet (excerpted below). I met Jim Randi in 1985 when we were first trying to figure out how to deal with offers of help from psychics. He's a bright and courageous gentleman engaged in a thankless and seemingly hopeless struggle against rampant stupidity. Sometimes I feel like we're in the same line of work. A name cropped up in Randi's remarks from last year that forum subscribers will recognize: ************************** From: James Randi --- Wizard Sent: Saturday, March 29, 1997 10:18 AM To: broadcast-randi-hotlineab@ssr.com Subject: The Higher Source - a Dead End. (excerpt) "The strange notion that media and media personalities would not give attention to worthless ideas, seems to persist; exactly the opposite is true. We're told that this cult embraced the stupid assertion that comet Hale-Bopp is accompanied by a huge UFO, to which these dupes thought they could migrate by killing themselves. Strange, weird notion. But it was invented, promoted, and encouraged by two men who I believe should now be confronted with the result of their callous "joke." Ed Dames, a would-be "remote viewer" who has peppered the media with outright lies about my long-standing challenge to "psychic" powers, and who has said that I've refused to test his wondrous powers, came up with the Hale-Bopp/UFO farce, and may have given the deluded Higher Source people the final item they needed to convince them that suicide would deliver them to Nirvana. Behind Dames, feeding off his nutty notions, is radio personality Art Bell. Bell proudly claims that he's heard nightly on 400 stations across the USA, and to hold on to that audience, he unconscionably promotes every sort of stupidity that he can attract; Ed Dames is his special pet and current 'star.'" ****************************** For the benefit of new forum subscribers, Ed Dames was (and still is) a silent subscriber to this forum. He has recently made claims in the media about his intention to find Amelia Earhart's aircraft and her remains in 60 feet of water near an atoll later this fall. When these claims were discussed on this forum he came forward to announce his intention to meet with me and Tom King (our senior archaeologist). However, my response and that of other forum subscribers, made it clear that we would hold him to the same rigorous standards of evidence we impose on ourselves. He immediately backed off and hasn't been heard from since. Randi's remarks shed some further light on just who that was who didn't feel that this forum was fertile ground for his message. On the reef-flat at Niku there are little eels, roughly a foot long, who lurk in the holes in the coral and feed on the little fish that are trapped in tidal pools at low tide. They'll poke their heads out if they sense that prey is near but quickly duck back into their hole if challenged. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:17:54 EDT From: Tim Smith Subject: Re: The Reynolds Challenge Put me down for a "Bosun" level of support. I can only afford $100 at this time. You have my credit card info. Tim Smith #1142C ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Tim. Okay, so far that's two Bosuns. Donations toward ship deposit $200 Matched by Reynolds Challenge for operating funds $200 Total raised $400 Balance of ship deposit still to be raised $8,200 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:36:09 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: Model 10 Model I'm just curious on this point---has anyone been able to borrow a bit of that tail skin fragment and do any comparative metallurgy with any of the aluminum pieces found being used for various things on Niku? There may be some value to any such findings. ---Ask not how your prop can spin for you, Gene Dangelo :) *************************************************************** From Ric About a year ago we did extensive metallurgical testing at Alcoa on metal samples found on Niku and on known aluminum from Lockheed 10s and from world War Two aircraft. What we found is that there is no discernable difference among any of it. It's all plain vanilla Alcoa Alclad 24ST (today known as 2024) and the stuff manufactured in the mid-1930s is the same recipe as the stuff made today. The only real difference we found is that the aluminum in Artifact 2-2-V-1 (the section of aircraft skin found on the island) has lost some of its ductility (is more brittle) due to exposure to heat on the order of 200 or 300 degrees F at some time after its manufacture. That's too much to be explained by simple exposure to even a tropical sun, but not enough for the piece to have ever been in a fire. Strange. As for the piece of Earhart's tail skin ( I could have phrased that better) owned by the former Lockheed employee - he is, unfortunately, an adherent of the captured-by-the-Japanese school and wants nothing to do with TIGHAR. C'est l'guerre. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:40:39 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Goniometer FN refers to an instrument called a goniometer in one of his letters, or memos, on navigation. Do you know what the heck this gizmo is? Thanks. blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric Measures gonads? I dunno. But the forum knows all, tells all. How 'bout it gang? What's a goniometer? ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:56:41 EDT From: Forest Blair Subject: Canton engine Although it would be helpful to know if the Canton engine is Amelia's before Niku IIII, what about spending 4-5 days, maybe fewer, at Canton during the 40-day rental of the motor-sailer if funds do not permit a separate trip to Canton before then? Am assuming you need the boat for eating and sleeping while at Niku so the above idea would cut into your "dig" time. If you would be camping on Niku, however, the diggers wouldn't lose any time. The factor of having the boat not so handy would be very important, though, if it were making a side trip to Canton. What are the thoughts on this? Is the boat large enough to get a "Bobcat" backhoe aboard? There used to be a dock available at Canton for loading purposes. Could the backhoe even be maneuvered off/on the boat without some lifting device? Does the boat have lifting capability? Would also need to get the engine aboard and stored for trip to port. Know you need answers, not questions. Just trying to find some reasonable way to get that engine. Forest #2149 **************************************************************** From Ric We're considering that possibility if nothing better comes up before Niku IIII. Nai'a is not set up for heavy deck cargo and could not handle a Bobcat - so that's out. We'd be talking about a manual dig using local labor, which is not altogether a bad approach. The main concern would be leaving a team on Niku while another team went off to Kanton for - what? - maybe a week? I see no reason that it couldn't be done provided we equipped the expedition with the assets to establish a camp on the island thast would be self-sufficient for that period of time. Logistically it would be a pain in the butt, but the benefit of digging the dump might be worth it. From a safety standpoint, we'd probably leave the doctor on Niku. Emergency medical help is a lot more available on Kanton where a Coast Guard C-130 from Hawaii can be there in about seven hours. If you get hurt really bad on Niku the difference in having the ship there or not is, frankly, just a matter of whether or not you die in air-conditioned surroundings. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:08:55 EDT From: Heather Parker Subject: Re: Seattle Joy I have not yet been able to actually join TIGHAR (hopefully within a few months), but I am an avid follower of the forum postings. I also happen to live in Seattle - and I am hearing "the call." Please refresh my memory regarding what sort of information you are trying to collect regarding Noonan's time in Seattle, as I think I could be persuaded to do a bit of digging around. I can't always read the complete emails (there are so many....!), and I seem to have missed exactly what the question was regarding Seattle. Is this genealogy or drinking or newspaper articles, looking through Mrs. Crosson's papers and photographs for references to him??? What kinds of "historical references?" Fall is coming, and it will get rainy here soon, so the library doesn't sound quite as dreary as it has all summer. Meanwhile, keep up the great work. And, if you do come up with a "friend of a friend" who is also interested in helping out, please feel to pass on my email address so that we could meet or link up and not duplicate efforts. Also, I haven't yet checked out jerry's FN summary on the webpage, but obviously that would be my starting point...! ltm, Heather Parker PS. How do I get those email summaries instead of individual postings? I can't keep up with them all at the moment, much as I love to read them! ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Heather. Jerry and I will be in touch by private email about specific research needs. Anybody else in Seattle want to give Heather a hand? There aren't actually any summaries of the postings. You can receive the postings as a single daily digest, which is better than having them come in as individual messages. The instructions on how to do that are reproduced below. Another way to keep up to date without reading every single posting is to check the TIGHAR website (www.tighar.org) every Tuesday or so. Each week we pick the meatiest (and funniest) messages of the preceding week and post them as Forum Highlights. ************************ How to receive the postings as a digest. Postings will come to you as regular email messages almost immediately after they're posted to the forum. Most people, however, prefer to receive the day's postings to the forum in one lump message (called a digest). To receive the postings as a digest just send an email to: listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com In the text of your message say: SET EARHARTFORUM DIGEST (Don't say anything else. This is a command to a computer so saying Please or Thank You just confuses the poor thing.) LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:07:56 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Swan Logs >This is a different situation. The logs are not missing. We have copies of >the log. They just don't say anything except "No remarks" and routine >notations of various inspections. No joy yet from the Mahan list about ships logs. I'll ask again this weekend, when more folks are awake. Tom ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:17:39 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Reef creature Ric's comment: "On the reef-flat at Niku there are little eels, roughly a foot long, who lurk in the holes in the coral and feed on the little fish that are trapped in tidal pools at low tide. They'll poke their heads but if they sense that prey is near but quickly duck back into their hole if challenged." Don't leave us hanging! That eel is called . . . ????? In the context of Ric's quote, I would suggest, "Hokum et dupus Maximus" Any other ideas? Yeah, I know, this may be off-topic, but damn!, it could be FUN. *************************************************************** From Ric We just call 'em Moray Eels because that's what they look like, except they're pretty small. My Latin isn't up to the task of characterizing them further. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:25:40 EDT From: Clyde Miller Subject: Re: Goniometer Goniometer in the Noonan sense is probably referring to a VLF long range direction finder (sic)...Although the term goniometer is also used in the medical profession for measuring joints (Elbows, knees, etc.) I've also seen it used in Xray equipment and Stereo equipment...it seems to be as generic as the term Gizmo..or doohicky.. ************************************************************** From Ric Cool. Sounds like a term we could put to good use. "I don't like the looks of that eel. Hand me the goniometer." or " We're just not finding anything here. Let's get out the gonionmeter." I'm sure there are other possibilities. (The goniometer indicates that the forum is entering another one of its periodic silly phases.) ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:39:51 EDT From: Mary Youngquist Subject: Hot metal Concerning the loss of ductility... Forgive me if this sound ridiculous ... because I'm no rocket scientist. What if someone heated a piece of metal over a fire to cook on it? Could it get up to 300F? If I were hungry and didn't' want to cook right over coals, I might pick up whatever scrap metal I could find for this purpose, enjoying food as I do. Of course, the piece you are referring to may be to large for this purpose. You know that better than I, though. Mary Youngquist ************************************************************** From Ric No, that's not ridiculous. We actually spent quite a lot of time and energy investigating Gilbertese cooking practices, including running an article in Pacific Islands Monthly asking for input from people who really know. What we learned is that fish are sometimes cooked on sheets of metal over a fire, but this would probably involve the metal getting hotter than 2-2-V-1 got. Another way is to build a fire in a pit and heat up a bunch of coral slabs, then you wrap your fish or pig in coconut fronds, put it in the pit, and cover it with sand. A piece of metal works well to keep the sand off the food while it bakes. Such use might generate the kind of temperatures we're talking about. Of course, there are other possible explanations. It's not a very productive avenue of inquiry. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:20:20 EDT From: Jim Tweedle Subject: Re: Goniometer A goniometer isn't actually an instrument, per se. It's an electronic component consisting of a couple of fixed coils at right angles coupled together by a movable coil mounted on a shaft calibrated usually in degrees. It adjusts and measures the phase relationship of two signals. It made possible radio direction finding without actually having to rotate a loop. (You know, laziness is the mother of invention!) Amelia's aircraft appears to have had a rotating loop. LTM, Jim ************************************************************** From Ric Indeed it did, but I think that the Pan am clippers also had rotating loops. I wonder what Fred was referring to. Jerry, perhaps you could give us the context. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:26:27 EDT From: Paul Chattey Subject: Re: Goniometers and eels Hokay, when the British developed radar in WWII they were concerned with range, bearing and height-finding. Bearing accuracy was difficult because the returning echo might encounters earth contours, like mountains, before it reached the receiving aerial, thereby scattering the echos and giving false echoes. To solve this, the British used known methods of general radio direction finding "called the radiogoniometer (a device for measuring the angle of arrival of a radio signal, gonio from the Greek 'angle', more familiar in the words 'hexagon', octagon', etc.). The actual 'gonio', as the radiogoniometer was known ...was a fine piece of precision engineering (little larger than a big tin of soup) mounted close to the radar receiver." (There is a great deal more technical information about early radar construction, those folks interested can check out "Radar A Wartime Miracle" [Colin Latham & Anne Stobbs, Alan Sutton Publishing, Ltd., Gloucestershire, England, 1996].) So, there is ample precedent for LTMs to ask for things like the "eeleradicatorgoniometer" and the "oreocookegoniometer." Where this equipment should be mounted remains as much of a question as if there are right- or left-handed gonios, but as long as they are in reasonably close proximity to something impressive, I don't think Latham or Stobbs will object. Finally, there are some interesting possibilities regarding bottom-dwelling eels that could be giving out scattered and inaccurate echoes. But I can't think of what kind of gonio should be used here. Paul ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:51:10 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Goniometers Galore In the intelligence business in the 60s we used large paper sacks called "burn bags" to dispose of our classified materials. When the bags got full we used to send our rookies out for a "burn bag stretcher" so we could pack more stuff in it. I fell for it once, but the second time I got sent out I spent a few hours blowing ZZZs in the furnace room. When I didn't return after a few minutes they sent out a posse. When I did returned six hours later I knew they knew that I knew about burn bag stretchers. No questions were asked. It seems the goniometer is the electronic version of the burn bag stretcher. SPM Dennis McGee 0149 *************************************************************** From Ric You worked in Intelligence? That explains a lot. *************************************************************** From Dan >From Ric > >Measures gonads? I dunno. But the forum knows all, tells all. How 'bout it >gang? What's a goniometer? A goniometer measures angles (not angels). To measure testes, you use an orchidometer. If you want to check it out, the orchid (flower) is named for the testicle, and not the other way around. Dan *************************************************************** From Ric Like I said, the forum knows all, tells all. *************************************************************** From Peter Boor Ric: Look in 'Avionics Navigation Systems' - Kayton/Fried - Wiley and Sons, page 149. A goniometer is a radio direction finding device using two sets of fixed windings at right angles to each other, instead of one rotating loop. This setup translates the received radio field at the loops into a miniature magnetic field in which a rotor operates. The rotor signal is sent to the receiver to indicate the received radio signal direction. It's the RF equivalent of a resolver. Sorry to spoil your fun. PMB. ************************************************************** From Ric Don't worry. We can always have fun with our orchidometers. *************************************************************** From Mike E. the Radio Historian 2194 A "goniometer" is a component of one type of radio direction finder. This type DF uses two matched, crossed loop antennas, mounted in a fixed position at right angles to each other, on a common base. Typically the loops are oriented so that one is parallel to the fore-and-aft line of the ship or aircraft, and the second is parallel to the beam line. The signal from both antennas is fed into the goniometer, which is an assembly of coils also mounted at right angles to each other. A rotating coil is used to feed the radio frequency signal to the receiver. The bearing is taken by turning the rotating coil until a "null" is observed; that is, when the phase of the signals fed from the antennas cancel each other out. A compass dial is attached to the rotating coil, which tells the operator the bearing of the signal with respect to the ship or aircraft. Simply stated: in this system, the loop antennas do not rotate; the rotating element is a separate box. Not only loop antennas are used. Goniometric (what a word!) DFs may also employ four vertical rod antennas (although this is more typical at VHF and UHF frequencies where the antennas are small, short and very rigid). The goniometer was invented prior to 1915, by two Italian radio pioneers, Bellini and Tosi; and so may also be known as the "Bellini-Tosi direction finder." I hope this contributes to everyone's understanding. 73 GA GL Best DX AR Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194 ************************************************************** From Gene Dangelo The 1969 Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary of Electronics defines GONIOMETER as follows: goniometer n. An instrument used in measuring angles. The 1975-75 Radio Shack Dictionary of Electronics defines GONIOMETER with the following two definitions: goniometer-1. In a radio-range system, a device for electrically shifting the directional characteristics of an antenna. 2. An electrical device for determining the azimuth of a received signal by combining the outputs of individual elements of an antenna array in certain phase relationships. Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary defines GONIOMETER as follows: goniometer [G. gonia, angle + metron, measure]. An apparatus to measure joint movements and angles. Webster's New World Dictionary does not even list the term. For a navigator, either visual angles or radio direction finding would seem very pertinent! Have a good weekend, everyone! ------Round and round she goes, Gene Dangelo :) **************************************************************** From Vern 2124 I'm betting there will be at least three postings just like this! My dictionary says a goniometer is an instrument for measuring angles, as in surveying, craniometry, mineralogy, etc. In radio, it's a direction finder. ************************************************************** From Ric You're an optimist. ************************************************************* From Sam Ginder 2180 Ric: A goniometer is a second generation gizedeech. Sam Ginder 2180 PS I fear there's no end in sight with this. *************************************************************** From Ric Oh yes there is. ************************************************************** From Dick Strippel hi gang-- a goniometer is a means if elkectronically "steering "a DF ANTENNA. LOOK IT UP IN ANY GOOD RADIO MANUAL *************************************************************** From Ric I vote we let Dick have the last word on this. But it's been a great trip! Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:24:24 EDT From: Welsh Subject: Re: reef creature I am familiar with Bell's work. The snake oil salesman concept is as old as time itself. The good is that intelligent people will always look for the punchline- Welsh ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:39:40 EDT From: Stephen Subject: Re: PMS colors I've been a forum subscriber for a month now, and I really admire your dedication to finding the truth. I've worked with graphics arts and PMS color charts in the past. Don't know if you are already aware of this or not, but here goes anyway. PMS charts are supposed to replaced every year due to fading. If one of you is using a pms chart from 1995 and the other chart is from another year, it is entirely possible that the two colors will not match. Ric's idea of pinning down the fed specs on that color sounds like a good one, however, if any pieces of the aircraft are recovered, they may not even match that spec anymore due to age and the conditions which they were exposed to. Probably your best bet as far as color matching would be to use a new color chart and match it to the piece of the tail section available from when the a/c was repaired. This piece at least would be approx the same age. **************************************************************** From Ric We really don't expect to use color matching as an artifact identification technique, although I've been amazed in the past at how well paint colors can survive on the underside of unrecovered aircraft. I've now made arrangements (through dark and mysterious means) to get a color chip wich has been physically matched to the tail piece. We'll buy a new PMS key and get an accurate match for use in production of the solid resin models. ************************************************************** From Vern 2124 I have FED-STD-595, from the library, right here on my desk. That Orange 12197 is a mighty muddy looking orange! On the way home I stopped by a printing business and we compared to the PMS colors. The matching was done by a female employee. I wouldn't think of trusting my own color perception! It's PMS 173C alright. The closest you can get. It is a wee bit dark, but 172C is definitely too light. Even I can see that. I wonder who picked that color?? From Vern... addendum to earlier posting this date. Incidently, this FED-STD-595B is of issue date: December 15, 1989. ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Vern. We'll double-check it with the chip but I think 173C will do the job. Who picked such a brownish orange to go on the Electra? I'll venture a guess. Maybe it was the woman whose high school yearbook photo carried the notation "The girl in brown who walks alone." ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:42:07 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: PMS colors Ric wrote: >Well, for what it's worth, your member number is very pale orange. We could >just use that. What we need to do is pin down that Federal Standard 595B. These sites might help Ric... http://www.servtech.com/~cuda/colors.text http://www.ipmsusa.org/FS595Purchase.html Tom ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:51:54 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Magic in the Water! Because of Gallagher's reference to an "inverting eyepiece" that had been in the sextant box found on Gardner Island in 1940, I've continued to try to discover just what such an eyepiece might be, and why one would want one. In the course of my search, I met "The Navigator." A real, live navigator who does most navigation on dry land! I'll not go into The Navigator's travels over various parts of the world. There is just one bit of our conversation that I want to post for whatever interest it may be to the Forum. The Navigator uses a marine type sextant. Of course, I wondered how this could be done in deserts and mountains. I had to ask... "How can you determine your location with a marine sextant when there is ocean and no horizon to be seen?" With a perfect poker face, the Navigator replied, "I use a bucket of water." "What? A bucket of water! Sea water?" I thought, this has to be a put on! "Just water, any water will do." It was not sea water. It was not even salt-water. But the magic was clearly in the water. I was NOT being put-on, but The Navigator would not tell me the secret! I had to figure it out for myself. It's an interesting exercise in "magic." Anyone believe in magic?? **************************************************************** From Ric I would guess that the "horizon" of water in a bucket (provided that it was on level ground) would be the same as the natural horizon. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:10:06 EDT From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Re: Goniometer Goniometer Webster says it is, 1. An optical instrument for measuring crystal angles. 2. A radio receiver and directional antenna used as a system for determining the angular direction of incoming radio signals. With this definition we would wonder if Fred was writing about his sextants and their use or was he referring to Radio DF systems. DF systems being new to the times in question he could have been attaching a name to it that he new the definition of. So, in what context was the word used? Bruce *************************************************************** From JHam #2128 [From Ric, I wonder what Fred was referring to. Jerry, perhaps you could give us the context...] Now that I've managed to provide the Forum a few laughs and chuckles (of course you folks are easy!), here's the context. Fred wrote a memo summary for Pan Am of his navigation experiences on the first Oakland to Hawaii round trip flight of the Clipper in 1935. In one reference he refers to an "...incorrect application of the goniometer calibration correction to bearings taken...". In another reference he concludes, "A very definite check on ground speed may be obtained by geniometer D.F. bearings of surface vessels when abeam or nearly so. Short distance bearings obtained by goniometer proved to be very reliable, but distant bearings - for example, from Los Angeles -were not accurate." Probably the eels get in the way over long ranges, or something. Blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Natko Katicic As Paul Chattey 1120C correctly points out, >>>(a device for measuring the angle of >>>arrival of a radio signal, gonio from the Greek 'angle', more familiar in >>>the words 'hexagon', octagon', etc.) "Goniometer" derived from Greek 'goneia'=angle and 'metron'=measure is nothing more than a name for a device made/used to measure angles. I believe in '37 it was too early to speak about radio/radar gonios. The term goniometer applies also to every sextant or parts thereof as former is used to measure angles between celestial bodies. I suspect Noonan wouldn't have refered to a sextant with that term. What comes to mind first is a pair of rulers attached at a joint on one end with a semicirclular scale between them calibrated to display the angle at which the rulers are opened. I even faintly remember that we have had such a thing (large scale) to draw angles on the blackboard in geometry class at school. Should look a bit like this: ( I hope this doesn't get disalligned) Ruler1 x x x x 15 dgs -o x -o x Joint -o 45 dgs -o x x -o x -o x 90 dgs -o Scale x Ruler 2 Hope this helps a bit, LTM, Natko. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:12:00 EDT From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Re: Canton engine A dual trip to Niku and Canton should be further investigated. One crew left on Canton to look for the engine and the other to Niku to look for the plane. The group at Canton would have support from the local people in case of a problem. As far as getting hurt, that mission is less risky than Niku, as far as, life threatening or dangerous activity. Radio communication could be by radio for both parties. Living conditions would be a concern for the Canton group. Food and Water would be number one, a large tent, such is used by the military could be used for living space. For those such as myself who have spent time on that island also know of many other useable accommodations that could be had with a little TLC. Bruce ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:37:06 EDT From: HAG Subject: Re: What we know/What we suspect To Ric: Also, would you please review the post-loss radio transmissions picked up by the 3 Pan-Am Airways receivers and direction-find triangulated to the same point in the Phoenix group of islands. I can't remember where I read about this. HAG. *************************************************************** From Ric We do not consider the directional bearings taken by Pan Am to be strong evidence of Earhart's presence on Niku. They are, without a doubt, fascinating but there are several problems with them. - The Pan Am Adcock stations on Oahu, Midway and Wake that took the bearings were designed for use within about 200 miles of the target station, not 2,000 miles. - The signals upon which bearings were taken were weak carrier waves signals and contained no identifying information. - On no occasion was more than one bearing taken on any one signal, so there was no "triangulation." Rather, separate bearings on separate signals cross in the vicinity of Gardner Island. - A total of five bearings on five signals were taken by Pan Am. Three cross in the vicinity of Gardner, two do not. In short, this could be evidence or it could be merely the illusion of evidence. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:45:51 EDT From: Ed Dames Subject: Re: Reef creature/ from Dames Reef denizen, indeed I am, spending a great deal of time underwater. My team is currently in a forward staging area, in Hawaii, training for 10E wreckage and retrieval operations (no, we're not going to Niku). The way we located the crash site is very similar to the methods my military remote viewing team employed to pinpoint a downed F-111, during the war with Libya -- for which we received a Secretary of Defense unit citation. Anyway, I just waded through days and miles of 'forum' chit-chat to find your cute post. A request and a comment: 1. Please remove my name from your list server. 2. May the best man win. Gotta get back to work. Stay comfortable, Ed Dames P.S. -- Do some homework. PSI TECH publically took up the "Amazing Randi" open challange (to prove that any psychic phenomenon was real) -- the Less-than-Amazing Randi backed down...we'll take good care of the bird's pieces for you, Ric. **************************************************************** From Ric Well, it's clear the Dames and Randi have different impressions of what transpired between them. I have complied with Mr. Dames request. We now return to the real world. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:51:08 EDT From: Paul Verde Subject: Re: PMS Colors Re: PMS 173C - actually the "C" represents that particular color of ink printed on coated paper, i.e. glossy, shiny stock. Since ink is transparent, it takes on the appearance of whatever it is printed upon. 173U means that same exact color of ink printed on uncoated stock, like letterhead paper, copy paper, etc. It is really the exact same ink only it is laid down on a different substrate thereby giving it a different appearance. 173C looks a little different than 173U, although it is the same ink. Anything with a "2X" behind it simply means two applications (one on top of the other) of the same ink. Kind of like painting a wall with two coats of paint. Be careful of trying to match Pantone Matching System (PMS) inks (which are printing inks for offset printing presses) to any paint or screen printing inks. Inks are different and are used for different purposes, so if you use a PMS ink swatch as described above to choose another type of (non PMS) paint, stain, ink, whatever... BEWARE it may not look like the color you chose when you get it back. Sorry to have been so long-winded, but color is a very subjective beast. You may find that 173C or 172C works just fine, but you never know. There is always time to do it over. Paul J. Verde Lifetime TIGHAR Member 1447 President Pilot Printing Services, Ltd. Atlanta, GA *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Paul. I was just talking with the model production company. For mixing the paint they'll use the Federal Standard rather than the PMS color. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:56:32 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Magic in the Water! >"How can you determine your location with a marine sextant when there is no >ocean and no horizon to be seen?" > >With a perfect poker face, the Navigator replied, "I use a bucket of water." > >"What? A bucket of water! Sea water?" I thought, this has to be a put on! > >"Just water, any water will do." > >It was not sea water. It was not even salt-water. But the magic was >clearly in the water. I was NOT being put-on, but The Navigator would not >tell me the secret! I had to figure it out for myself. > >It's an interesting exercise in "magic." Anyone believe in magic?? >**************************************************************** > >From Ric > >I would guess that the "horizon" of water in a bucket (provided that it was on >level ground) would be the same as the natural horizon. ******************************************************************** From Vern That sounds pretty reasonable but how the heck would you use it with a marine sextant to actually determine your location? It's really a great way to take sightings on stars at night. Better than a real horizon! *************************************************************** From Randy Jacobson > I would guess that the "horizon" of water in a bucket (provided that it was on > level ground) would be the same as the natural horizon. Silly you, Ric! The bucket doesn't have to be placed on horizontal ground, as the water surface always will be flat and horizontal. ************************************************************** From Ric Duh. Boy do I feel DUMB! ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:04:40 EDT From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Water & Goniometers Ric wrote: >I would guess that the "horizon" of water in a bucket (provided that it was >on level ground) would be the same as the natural horizon. Doesn't matter if it is on level ground or not, the water surface still gives you a "horizon" aligned perpendicular to gravity, doesn't it? By the way, the 1933 Oxford English Dictionary lists Goniometer as simply " An instrument used for measuring angles." It goes on to mention types of goniometers used for primarily for measurement of angles in crystals and secondarily in surveying. Apparently this term originated in the field of crystallography, and subsequently has been adapted for use in many other fields including orthopedics, radio / electronics, and evidently navigation as well. Andrew McKenna #1045C *************************************************************** From Ric I am never going to live this down. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:06:47 EDT From: Andrew McKenna Subject: CORRECTION OOPS, I GOT IT BACKWARDS !! The last half of my last missive should read: By the way, the 1933 Oxford English Dictionary lists Goniometer as simply " An instrument used for measuring angles." It goes on to mention types of goniometers used for primarily for surveying and secondarily in measurement of angles in crystals . Apparently this term originated in the field of surveying, and subsequently has been adapted for use in many other fields including crystallography, orthopedics, radio / electronics, and evidently navigation as well. Andrew McKenna #1045C ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:13:12 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Scaevola juice... anyone? Among the possible sources of water on Nuku, may be the fabled Scaevola vine. Does the vine climb trees? One might do the vine-draining thing... climb as high as you can and chop off the main branches then go down and chop off the main stem where it starts up the tree. (tough chopping, I gather) Now let the juice drain into some sort of container... make it from a big leaf if need be. Is the juice "milky" and bitter? Leave it alone! You might meet the Goddess! Is it essentially clear and possibly a bit sweet? You're probably in luck! But do the usual tests of a unknown potential food/drink substance before taking on very much of it. Maybe someone in a place the Scaevola grows in captivity could cut off a branch and what sort of juice comes out. I wonder if a salt-tolerant plant separates out the salt, or if it lives with the salt in its vital juices? I would be interesting to check out a plant growing in a high-salt environment to see if there seemed to be salt in it's internal juices. Maybe someone knows about this aspect of salt-tolerant plants in general. ************************************************************** From Ric Scaevola does not grow as a climbing vine. I recall a white pithy interior to the easily-cut bits out toward the end, but I never tasted it. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:19:32 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: F. Noonan, Highschool Dropout It may be that Fred's choice of words tells us something about his education. Fred Noonan was not your average highschool dropout... Gradeschool dropout? Leaving school at the tender age of 12 years, in 1905, he had been taught more of the basics than most highschool graduates today. You don't learn much in school anyway. And those who do learn more than just enough to get by, would learn whether in school or not. Fred's use of the word, "goniometer" (Sneaked in the "G" word!) say something about the sources of his knowledge, or maybe just the time in which he grew up and first learned about things like radio direction finding. Somewhere, he had learned to think of devices to measure angles as goniometers. Obviously, that loop with its scale marked in degrees of angle was a goniometer. Just as his sextant was a goniometer designed and constructed for a special kind of angular measurement. I suspect that the first people to closely examine the characteristics of loop antennas were the kind of people who thought of themselves as scientists rather than engineers or technicians. And scientists are wont use words with Greek roots -- thus to impress and mystify the local gentry! In the early work with loop antennas as a means to determine the direction of a source of radio frequency energy, they probably called them "radio goniometers". They measured the angle of incident RF energy relative to some reference direction, such as a compass direction, or bearing. We know from the literature of the early 1930s that "direction finder" was in common usage by nautical and aeronautical people. But Fred used the term, "goniometer". I think that tells us that he was well read in the literature of earlier times, certainly in things related to navigation and perhaps much more. *************************************************************** From Ric It is my understanding that in the early years of this century, 8th grade was about as far as most boys went in school. Leaving school at 12 might be a bit young but not as much so as it seems today. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:32:02 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: PMS 173C If you plan to use PMS 173 for the "orange" (and it is one very ugly "orange") on AE's L-10E model, make sure you differentiate between 173C and 173U. The 173C is "coated" and to me has distinct lighter tint than the "uncoated" 173U (c=coated; u=uncoated). Plus, the coated version is glossy and the uncoated version is matte -- obviously. The composite base colors in PMS 173C and 173U are identical: 12 parts warm red (72.7 percent of total pigment), 4 parts yellow (24.3 percent) and 0.5 parts black (3 percent). As stated by other forum members, earlier Federal Standard 595B is a document on color standardization and the muddy orange color on AE's plane was #12197. I have contacted the Government Printing Office to see if they have the composite colors of 12197 on file. The benefit of this is that with the true composition of 12197 known we can better match it up with the existing Pantone system. My contact at GPO cautioned that direct matches via the eye can be erroneous due to aging and other factors. He also reminded me that in the 30s paints contained elements such as lead and chromium that today are no longer used or banned. These elements could also be a factor over the years in altering the color we see today. SMP Dennis 0149 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:16:35 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Scaevola juice... anyone? Well, it's a thought, and if anybody has a Scaevola plant growing nearby, it'd be a fine idea to go suck on a tendril, but I have to doubt if you'd get any more fluid out of it than out of any other plant. Sounds like a great I Kiribati curse, though. And is a goniometer not an instrument for measuring how far you're gonna go? LTM Tom King *************************************************************** From Ric As my Uncle Victor once said, "I have created a monster!" No...no more goniometer jokes. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:22:11 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Magic in the Water! Ric wrote: >Duh. Boy do I feel DUMB! s'okay, Ric. We know you ain't as dumb as you look. ;>) Tom Tom Robison *************************************************************** From Ric That's very comforting. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:39:28 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: History News item in the September 14th issue of U.S. News and World Report: "Largely forgotten seven decades later is that before Charles Lindbergh made his storied trans-Atlantic flight, six men had died trying to win the same $25,000 prize. Among them were gallant French aces Charles Nungesser and Francois Coli, who, just two weeks before Lindy got lucky, were such overwhelming favorites that New York city began organizing a harbor reception before they left Paris. Lindbergh's place in history would have belonged to Nungesser and Coli had they not dipped their wings over Ireland, flown on seaward, and disappeared. "In air-lore circles, the mystery of the vanished French birdmen remains as romantically riveting as that of the vanished Amelia Earhart. It is generally believed that they made it across the sea only to crash on the North American coast; over the past 15 years or so, several groups have mounted expeditions into the rugged wilds of Maine and Canada, searching for the wreckage of the Levasseur biplane that Nungesser christened 'White Bird'. "No serious trace has yet been found, but clues continue to arrive. The Maine Aviation Historical Society recently got a Down East old-timer's recollection that years ago he found a piece of canvas in a stream bed. In the next two weeks, a team will look for White Bird again. The world still searches for Nungesser and Coli, which is more than can be said of many souls not seen since 1927. And perhaps this is not yet their moment. Says the Society's Bill Townsend serenely: 'We have plenty of time'." Tom Robison *************************************************************** From Ric Downeasters will continue to tromp the forests and creeks seeking aviation's Eldorado based upon a seemingly inexhaustible supply of anecdotes about pieces of canvass, propellers, and engines seen by lost hunters. I can't fault them. We spent eight years (20 expeditions) searching the Maine woods for l'Oiseau Blanc. What I can tell you is that there is no contemporaneous documentation to indicate that the White Bird ever got as far as the Maine coast. There is, by contrast, a fascinating string of documented sightings which suggest that the flight reached the Avalon Peninsula of Newfoundland. There is also physical evidence (found by TIGHAR in 1992) and good documentation to suggest that an airplane of some description crashed on the Cape Shore branch of that peninsula in the late 1920s or early '30s and was salvaged to some degree by the local people. Somewhere up there on the muskeg or in a pond may lie the twelve-cylinder 450 hp Lorrainne-Dietrich engine of l'Oiseau Blanc. Someday perhaps we'll find it. But let's finish Amelia first. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:44:05 EDT From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Magic in the Water! The British Army used sextants to navigate on dry land in the Crimean War. The area is apparently very flat and gave a good horizon. *************************************************************** From Vern 2124 Not to drag this out too long... How does one use a marine sextant and a bucket of water to make a sighting when there is no ocean and horizon in sight? The surface of the water in the bucket is level regardless of whether the bucket is on a level surface or not. That's one part of the "magic." The undisturbed surface of the water is a pretty good reflector -- a "mirror." That's the other part. Can we do "magic" with that -- and a sextant? We know how magic is... there's always a simple "scientific" explanation! ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:47:49 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Goniometer I'd like to order a goniometer !! Please debit my credit card accordingly !! :-) Simon #2120 P.S. just joking - but seriously, is there money to be made here ? Invent a forum "goniometer" - something silly & pretty useless but looks nice and has some charm - and sell it ? ************************************************************** From Ric I can't speak for goniometers, but I'm running a special on buckets of water. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:13:14 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Wreck Photo Ric wrote:- >5. Is it possible that a photo exists of Earhart's wrecked Electra on >Nikumaroro? >What we know: >A photo of uncertain origin shows a wrecked aircraft in a tropical setting >which could be Nikumaroro. The airplane's structure appears to exhibit several >features unique to the Lockheed Model 10 and, as yet, no disqualifying >features have been confirmed. The background in the photo appears to match >specific features on Nikumaroro in the place where former residents say >airplane wreckage was seen. It is said that on one occasion "some white >people came in a government ship... and took pictures of the airplane parts."" I've done many hours research on the photo, and I have a pretty good eye for detail. I wasn't aware of any details in the photo that have positively been shown to be "unique to the Lockheed Model 10" as you imply. If they had - wouldn't we all be dancing on tables, as this constitutes proof that the photo must be an L10 !! However, I do agree that all the research done on the photo to date hasn't yielded any detail that positively ELIMINATES the L10E as a candidate either. Sorry to grumble, but I feel that in the interests of objective research we should paint a fair picture. Cheers Simon #2120 **************************************************************** From Ric I hate to sound like our beloved President but I have to maintain that my description was technically correct. What I said was, "The airplane's structure appears to exhibit several features unique to the Lockheed Model 10..." Allow me to elaborate. - The base of the windshield centerpost "appears" to have the flaired shape which we have (at least, so far) found on no other aircraft which fits the other necessary criteria of the airplane in the Wreck Photo. - The two prominent lightening holes behind the leading edge skin of the inboard starboard wing section have not been shown to be present on any other type which fits the other necessary criteria of the airplane in the Wreck Photo. It may be that what we think we're seeing is not what we're really seeing, and it may be that what we're seing is not as unique as we think it is. That's why I threw the qualifying "appears" in there. But the windshield centerpost and the lightening holes are, in my opinion, very important aspects of the photo. Let me also say that my relationship with the photo, while admittedly inappropriate, was entirely passive. I just sat there and looked at it. I didn't touch it and I have no idea whether the photo enjoyed being looked at. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:33:22 EDT From: Kar Burns Subject: Re: goniometer (medical) Ric -- A goniometer measures the angle of the jaw. Gonion is an anthropometric point. It is located at the "corner" -- the place where the body of the jaw turns to become the ramus of the jaw. Gonion is found below each ear. Now, why measure the angle at gonion? Because it is generally different between females and males. Males have and angle closer to 90 degrees. Females tend to have a "gentler," more obtuse angle. LTM, Kar Burns **************************************************************** From Ric I'll be darned - fascinating - but it's probably safe to say that that's not exactly the sort of goniometer Noonan was referring to in his navigational treatise. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:53:16 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Wreck Photo Okay - perhaps this is an interpretation problem. If I read your statement as "appears to exhibit several features WHICH TAKEN TOGETHER seem unique to the L10E" then that could make sense. I doubt that either of the examples in themselves (flaired windsheld base and holed wing construction) are unique to the L10. I graciously conceed. Love to everyone - including Mother. Simon #2120 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:20:47 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Label fragment & Reynolds Challenge McCrone Associates in Westmont, IL have reported back after examining our label fragment that the surviving markings on the label include part of a European-style barcode. This independent corroboration of our own findings (thanks to Walt Holm, TIGHAR member 0980C) reinforces our conclusion that the label fragment and, by implication, the fire it came from, date from relatively modern times. Further dating of the label may be possible through an analysis of the chemical components used in the pigments. For example, the common white pigment titanium dioxide (TiO2) is not present, although the significance of that fact is not yet clear. Further work is being done. The knowledge that the campfire we found is not the campfire that Gallagher found in 1940 presents a number of questions and implies that opportunities exist for further discoveries once we do identify the correct location. At present, we suspect that the bones, artifacts and campfire, etc. were found on the geographical feature labeled Kanawa Point on the 1938 New Zealand Survey map of the island. That area has never been systematically searched by TIGHAR but we plan to correct that during the Niku IIII expedition. Niku IIII won't happen if we don't pay the $8,400 deposit on the ship and if we don't keep the organization afloat. To date (since 9/10/98) we've had one Mate $250), seven Bosun ($100), and three Crew ($50) contributions to the Reynolds Challenge which gives us $1,100 toward the deposit - leaving a balance still to raise of $7,300 - and another $1,100 toward operating funds. It's a start, but we need to do better or all of this is just so much talk. Love to mother, Ric - ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:24:36 EDT From: Mike Scott-Williams Subject: Buckets of water A nautical-type friend of mine once showed me how to "take a shot" of the moon with his sextant, in his back yard, with no decent horizon visible. He used the reflection of the moon and stars in his pool. I can't remember enough to explain the finer points, but I asked him to explain how he did it and received the following :- >.........if you remember, we used the deflection on the moon or >stars on the surface of the water to interpose the sextant image. >This method can be very accurate and one does not have to compensate >for semidiameters etc., but of course you must realise that the >sextant angle will be double the height of the heavenly body. I know sweet fanny about nautical navigation, but he assures me that the same result he got from his swimming pool can be got from a bucket of water. Cheers Mike *************************************************************** From Ric But was the swimming pool on level ground? For the life of me I can't think what any of this has to do with finding Amelia. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:32:39 EDT From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Wreck Photo Mr. Gillespie: Could you explain a little bit of the background as to how you came to be in possession of the Wreck Photo? Also, regarding the rectangular sections that the text mentions are missing from the nose section, these appear to be perfectly rectangular indicating that they were originally "filled in" by removable rectangular plates of some sort (sort of like a car has hinged sections of the body which cover the gas tank nozzle). Does the nose section of an Electra have any features like this which might explain these rectangular "openings". If they were originally fixed skin plates which were subsequently torn off, does the nose of an Electra have such rectangular plating? Thanks! *************************************************************** From Ric We obtained the photo from Smithsonian officials who had been asked to help investigate it by Lockheed who had, in turn, received it from an Earhart author who said he had received it from the veteran who claimed to have taken it. Lord knows where the darned thing actually came from. The rectangular sections of skin which appear to be missing from the nose section would be consistent with skin sections removed or cut out according to the rectangular nature of the underlying framework of bulkheads and stringers of most stressed skin aircraft. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:55:51 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Commercial aviation Last night on late night TV I happened to catch a fragment of a jeans commercial in which an airplane which looks a HECK of a lot like a Lockheed Electra gets bailed out of and crashes into a barn. I think it's a Lee jeans commercial. Check it out! I think the network was the Fox FX network. If anyone else spots it, let me know!---Gene Dangelo, the night owl. *************************************************************** From Ric I haven't seen it, but I'll betcha it's a twin Beech. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:00:13 EDT From: Sam Ginder Subject: Re: Wreck Photo Why don't you put a subjective probability figure on the possibility that the photo of the wreck is indeed the AE plane. First, the Pr[ it is not on Niku] AND the Pr[ it is not the L10E]. That may yield a result that sensible people would be willing to bet a poker hand on. Let's face it, if it's not AE's plane it is an incredibly strange coincidence that something that appears to be such a good fit in fact is not. Ever ready to believe what I want to believe, Sam Ginder (#2180) *************************************************************** From Ric Are you talking about a mathematical process of establishing probability or just the expression of a gut feeling? ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:23:36 EDT From: Jack Subject: Alaska L-10s Reference your reply to my 9/07/98 09:10 msg. I communicated with Bob Gleason and sent him a copy of Jim Tierney's Subject: PAA Lockheeds dated Tue. Sept. 08 at 9:47 and your response. Bob indicated that only two L-10's went to Alaska Airways. NC 14259 and NC 14906. Bob still believes they were "B's" as I thought but he made a statement that has me wondering. He said engines were Wasps. As I recall, the Wasp was the P&W 550 hp engine and I think that would make them L-10 E's. Am I correct in that recollection? If thats the case, then I stand corrected and Ric, you are right again. I would have bet my life on those a/c being B's. As you said it was a good exercise. P.S. in the word life above, change the L to a W. he he he. LTM, Jack, #2157 ************************************************************** From Ric NC14259 and NC14906 were both Model 10Cs. They had the early 450 hp version of the P&W R1340 "Wasp." In a nutshell, here's what happened: Lockheed came out with the Model 10 in 1934. The airplane could be purchased with the new lightweight 450 hp P&W R985 SB "Wasp Jr." (the Model 10A) or the 450 hp Wright R975 (the Model 10B). Pan Am said they'd buy some of the new airplanes but would provide their own engines. They had a whole bunch of the older 450 hp P&W R1340 "Wasp" engines in inventory that they wanted to use on the new airplanes. Lockheed at first said no. The old Wasps were too heavy for the Electra. Pan Am said, "Hey, you wanna sell airplanes or not?" Lockheed caved and the heavy old Wasps were hung on the Pan Am Electras which became formally recognized as Model 10Cs. The airplane worked out okay despite Lockheed's original misgivings. About a year later Pan Am decided to try out the new 550 hp version of the Wasp, the R1340 S3H1. They had already shown that the airframe could handle the weight. Why not get another hundred horse power? It worked out fine and the Model 10E was born. More ponies meant better takeoff performance from high altitude Mexican airports and, by coincidence, bigger payloads for people with special needs - such as heavy fuel loads for long distance flying. Mr. Gleason's airplanes were 10Cs with Wasp engines. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:26:34 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Wreck Photo Ric wrote: >Let me also say that my relationship with the photo, while admittedly >inappropriate, was entirely passive. I just sat there and looked at it. I >didn't touch it and I have no idea whether the photo enjoyed being looked at. Ah, but Ric, did you have lust in your heart while looking at it? ;>) Tom *************************************************************** From Ric I've never been able to look at an airplane without lust in my heart. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:30:37 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Magic in the Water! Ric: You said that you would have buckets of water to sell. Are the buckets level buckets of water? Also, is this standard water or the famous de-hydrated type? Perhaps we could bottle our own water for this. Call it Noonan Night Water. What's this got to do with the search for Amelia? Lots. We cannot be deadly serious constantly and still have the stamina to search. Too, levity loosens us up and helps us to relax which aids the thought processes, which can lead to more revelations. How about buckets with a screen print of the 10-E on one side and Niku on the other? Love to Mother, Dave Bush #2200 ************************************************************** From Ric I agree, but the chances of this bunch getting excessively serious seem rather remote. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:33:14 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Wreck Photo Richard E. Gillespie wrote: > Let me also say that my relationship with the photo, while admittedly > inappropriate, was entirely passive. I just sat there and looked at it. I > didn't touch it and I have no idea whether the photo enjoyed being looked at. But, Ric, did you have a cigar while you looked at the photo and if so, was it a hand rolled or machine made cigar? I certainly hope it wasn't a Cuban or Havana cigar! Love to Mother, Dave Bush #2200 **************************************************************** From Ric Close, but no cigar. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:35:38 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Scaevola juice... anyone? >From Tom King > >Well, it's a thought, and if anybody has a Scaevola plant growing nearby, it'd >be a fine idea to go suck on a tendril, but I have to doubt if you'd get any >more fluid out of it than out of any other plant. Sounds like a great I >Kiribati curse, though. *************************************** I didn't mean to suggest the Scaevola might be an especially good source of fluid, only that it might be one source on Niku. It's the plant we've heard the most about... usually in unflattering terms! I thought it might redeem itself! But if it doesn't climb trees, it would be difficult to drain much out of it. I wonder what vines on Niku may climb trees and be better candidates? And I am curious about salt-tolerant plants growing in a high salt environment. Is the juice salty? Maybe somebody knows or can find out. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:14:40 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Who you are I've just completed a little review of the forum's make up and it's pretty interesting. As of 9/16/98 there are 388 subscribers to the Amelia Earhart Search Forum. There were 377 subscribers on 9/1/98. We typically have one or two people sign off each day and two or three new subscribers sign on. Turnover is, therefore, relatively small and overall growth is slow but steady. 305 of you (79%) are male and the 83 of you (21%) are female. 140 of you (36%) are TIGHAR members of which 123 (80%) are male and 17 (20%) are female. That means there are 248 good people out there who read and (we must presume) enjoy this forum but have not yet seen fit to cough up the 45 bucks a year it takes to put a TIGHAR member number after your name and receive our really neat quarterly journal TIGHAR Tracks and actually be a part of the history that is being made here. Some of you simply can't afford to join TIGHAR. We understand that. And some of you are new to the forum and haven't had a chance to decide whether or not anything worthwhile is happening here. We understand that too. But there are many of you who CAN afford it and know darn well that this is important, exciting work that has tremendous educational potential which can only be realized if we all support it with our checkbooks as well as our brains. So come on. Let's get the percentage of TIGHAR membership on this forum up to at least fifty percent. It should be more like eighty. You'll find a printable membership form on the TIGHAR website at http://www.tighar.org Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:10:33 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Magic in the Water! How many ping-pong balls does it take to fill a level bucket, and do you count them with a goniometer? LTM TK ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:13:35 EDT From: Andrew McKenna Subject: goniometers from hell By the way, there is also a goniometer used in opthalmology to measure the angle at which the front of the retina meets the back of the iris, also referred to as a gonioscope, I think. The angle can be indicative to certain types of Glaucoma that cause the junction between retina and iris to bulge out, thus altering the normal angle. It ain't easy to see up into the back part of the iris, so they need to anethetize your cornea, and slime this thing onto your eyeball so that they can use the optical qualities of the gonioscope, somewhat like a prism, to gain the slim line of sight up into the nether reaches of the inside of your eye. Unfortunately, I have had first hand experience with this and other eyeball tortures, and I don't recommend it. :) I am reciting this from memory, so forgive me if I did not get it exactly right. Any opthamologists on the forum to set me straight? Andrew McKenna 1045C ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:19:33 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Wreck Photo Sam Ginder wrote: >Why don't you put a subjective probability figure on the possibility that the >photo of the wreck is indeed the AE plane. First, the Pr[ it is not on Niku] >AND the Pr[ it is not the L10E]. That may yield a result that sensible people >would be willing to bet a poker hand on. Let's face it, if it's not AE's plane >it is an incredibly strange coincidence that something that appears to be such >a good fit in fact is not. >Ever ready to believe what I want to believe, >Sam Ginder (#2180) >*************************************************************** > >From Ric > >Are you talking about a mathematical process of establishing probability or >just the expression of a gut feeling? From Simon, Well, I dunno if this possible debate is gonna cause mucho controversy on the forum, but having spent considerable time researching the photo, here are my 5 cents worth in the gut feelings dept.:- 1) Probability that the photo was taken on Niku:- Not enough detail available in the picture to conclusively say yes or no (indeed, only a distinguishing landmark or something unique to Niku would swing it). However the fauna, according to experts, fits Niku. 2) Probability that the photo is of an L10E:- My gut feeling from balancing similarities vs. discrepancies is 60:40 against the L10E in favour of the Ki-54. I know Ric will strongly disagree with me on this point. But I'm open minded and still willing to be convinced by new arguements. LTM Simon #2120 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:24:35 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Who you are > Some of you simply can't afford to join TIGHAR. We understand that. And some > of you are new to the forum and haven't had a chance to decide whether or not > anything worthwhile is happening here. We understand that too. $45 is: 1. Three weeks gas for my car. 2. Six weeks school lunches for my kid. 3. A night out with my wife. and so on. It's also a perfectly reasonable price for membership. When I ran across the forum and TIGHAR I decided right off that I wanted to join, as soon as I could free up the $45 as available cash. But it's hard to justify when your mortgage is late. But, the other decision I made was that I'd keep up on the goings on of the forum and the projects while I waited for the cash issue to resolve. I think some people treat things like this like shareware. Try it for a while, if you like it enough, you pay the price. Of course, there's the other people who treat it like shareware too. Those who keep using the software forever without paying. - Bill *************************************************************** From Ric Thank you Bill. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:28:24 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Scaevola juice... anyone? OK, Vern, I stand corrected. Asked my tropical biologist daughter Rachel, and here's what she says.... ------------- No, it wasn't a dumb question... some salt-tolerant plants taste salty, but usually less salty than sea water because they either exclude salt at the root membranes, or excrete it from pores in their leaves, or actively pump salt out. I'm not sure which mechanism scaevola uses, but if I was stuck on a beach without water, that would be one of the first plants I'd try sucking on. Salt-tolerant plants made pretty good water purification systems... if there are enough of them on a beach to keep a couple of people alive for very long time is a different question. Next time you're in Niku try sucking on some, I'll try it next time I'm in the Keys. ------------- I sense another TIGHAR epithet coming..... Tom King *************************************************************** From Ric In the present political climate - I'm not touching that one. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:28:43 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Magic in the Water! The number of ping-pong balls "pails" in comparison to the angle of the full moon taken on an overcast afternoon on the 30th of February. To measure them requires a cube with rounded corners and flat sides. The levelness of the bucket remains a constant except on stormy seas where nothing remains a constant except for the heaving. Therefore I vote we give this discussion the old heave-ho. Love to Mother, Dave Bush #2200 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:34:20 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Wreck Photo >I've never been able to look at an airplane without lust in my heart. Ric: Ditto - especially those Lustcombes. LTM Dave Bush #2200 ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:07:04 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: End of Magic All this "bucket of water" stuff has been much off-topic. It would have been a better fit as something to think about relative to a "Voyage of Discovery" and the many areas one could wander into from the Earhart Search. The sort of thing that might appeal to kids. The idea of using a bucket of water as a horizon substitute seemed ridiculous. it took a while for me to realize that there were a couple of things that might lead somewhere. 1. The surface of the water is level. 2. The surface is a good reflector. 3. Law of reflection (plane mirror): Angle of incidence = Angle of reflection I had to get paper and pencil and doodle a little simple geometry. Suppose a star to be viewed by reflection from the surface of the water. Draw, or visualize the line of sight from the star to a point on the surface of the water and from there to the eye of the observer. Consider the angle between the star line of sight and the surface of the water. That's the angular elevation of the star above the horizontal. That's exactly the measurement you want! And that angle is exactly the same as the angle between the surface of fthe water and the line of sight to the observer's eye. You can measure that with a sextant! Get in a position such that you can see the star reflected in the water. Point the sextant into the bucket! Use the reflected star image as you would normally use the horizon. Use the rotating mirror of the sextant to bring the star image reflected from it down to the star image in the bucket. Superimpose one on the other... and read the angle from the sextant scale. Now divide that by two. That's the elevation of the star above the horizon that isn't there! You divide by two because, in terms of angles, the the image of the star in the water is as far below the surface as the star is above the surface "Well...," said the Navigator, "Maybe it ain't as interesting as magic. On the other hand, it actually works!" The Navigator went on to point out several advantages of the bucket of water over a real horizon. "You don't have to correct for dip i.e. height above sea level. Nor do you have to correct for semi-diameter (you wouldn't have to anyway with stars). This is because you are superimposing one image on the other and not bringing one limb down to the line of the horizon as in the normal case. Another distinct advantage is that an artificial horizon can be used at night! Using a sea horizon means that star observations have to be done in the few minutes of twilight or dawn because the horizon has to be visible!" I'm inclined to say the "setability" of the sextant is improved by a factor of two. You get back what was lost by the compressed scale. You can move the pointer through 60 degrees but the scale reads 120 degrees. Of course, that's because of the double reflection involved in the sextant. There are a couple of disadvantges. The bucket of water would be a little hard to use on the deck of a ship, or on an airplane. Not to mention being a bit impractical. And a little wind ripples the water badly causing the reflection to dance about. This can be helped by using oil in place of the water. The Navigator said old, used motor oil worked real good! Incidently, this is a true story. It's evident I was very impressed with it! *************************************************************** From Ric Of course! That's what I meant. A bucket of water wouldn't work in an airplane because the water would not necessarily be level due to g force in a turn. On a slightly more serious note, does all this, by any chance, have a bearing on the notion of an inverting eyepeice? ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:12:51 EDT From: Barb Norris Subject: A gift I am sending you a check to cover the cost of a membership. Please assign it to a forum contributor of your choice as a gift from a current TIGHAR member. Perhaps others will feel inspired to follow suit. This way everyone benefits - Membership goes up, TIGHAR makes a little money and those recipients of the gift become full-fledged members of our organization. We all know that as soon as they get that membership card, complete with their official member number, not to mention the quarterly publication "TIGHAR Tracks" - they'll wonder why they didn't join sooner. (It's so much better than the secret decoder ring from the cereal box...). My check is in today's mail. LTM, Barbara Norris #2175 *************************************************************** From Ric What generous and diabolical idea! But I'm not going to carry the load on this all by myself. Let's have some nominations from TIGHAR members. Who should get this first Forum Gift Membership? Anybody else want to sponsor a new member? ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:26:26 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: A Gift Great idea, but how are we to know who's an uninitiated Forum member? Or should we just nominate anybody? Bill Gates? Ken Starr? Robert Redford? Boris Yeltsin? All kinds of intriguing possibilities. TK **************************************************************** From Ric I almost always include a member number after the name of a TIGHAR member who posts to the forum. The absence of a number indicates that they are among that legion of lost souls who are not yet TIGHAR members. Prime candidates for gift memberships might be those whose names, sans number, appear most frequently on the forum. Other forum subscribers who do not post messages and are therefore not generally "visible" to the rest of us, but who would like to be the recipient of a member/subscriber's generosity, might make tha fact known via a postng. As for the luminaries you specifically mention, I can say that none are currently TIGHAR members and all but one would be welcome. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:01:35 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Gift Membership I nominate Dick Stripple as the recipient of the donated membership. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:09:06 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Gift Membership Gift Memberships... That IS diabolical! I'll nominate Tońio Gomez, in Veracruz, Mexico. I don't see indication that he is a member, but then I'm not in the habit of showing my member-number either. If this is appropriate, do you have his complete address? If not, I'll find out what it is. I'll get a check in the mail sometime next week. Guess some good Forum contributor will have to be picked for Barbara's gift membership. ************************************************************** From Ric Senor Gomez is not yet a TIGHAR member but we'll gladly correct that upon receipt of your check. Thanks Vern. Others? ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:12:00 EDT From: Tim Heck Subject: Gift Membership Please help a cash strapped 15 year old, and give the membership to none other than me. Tim *************************************************************** From Ric Tim qualifies for $30 student membership. Who will step forward and sponsor him? ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:14:34 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: A Gift "...and all but one would be welcome." I thought you LIKED Robert Redford! He was good in "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid." I've never seen any of Boris Yeltsin's pictures, though, and I don't think I WANT to see any of Ken Starr's. This Bill Gates----isn't he a Window contractor? I've heard that his windows only last for three years, though! Seriously, though, I think that the gift idea is a noble one! ----Lieb zu Mutter, Gene Dangelo :) ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:20:24 EDT From: Tim Heck Subject: Operation Sepelchure tie in A new book by Dean Ing presents something very similar to what you wish to do in Op. Sep. Flying to Pieces is about a group of old pilots who tell old war stories, one of them crash landed on this make-believe island, and finds a stash of old Japanese Bettys, Tojos and a baka bomb. The book is about the attempted salvage and escape from the island and its sadistic chief. Interesting considering every now and then someone finds an old aircraft squirrelled away on pacific atolls. Tim ************************************************************* From Ric The history of aircraft recovery in the Pacific is a sad one. I'm sure the book is far more appealing than the reality. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:25:19 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Nomination #2 I think Mike Everette is not a member. He has worked pretty diligently on the radio questions, and continues to do so -- just heard from him today. He's found some interesting stuff on WE and Bendix radio gear, and on Gurr's "Navy Radio." I expect he will have something to post shortly... not that it won't raise more questions than it answers! What else would you expect?? I'll nominate Mike. Vern *************************************************************** From Ric Mike Everette is TIGHAR member 2194, and yes he has done and is doing significant identification work on the cables (Artifact 2-3-V-1). ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:34:31 EDT From: Bill Moffett Subject: Gift Membership Ric, I nominate Heather Parker (hparker@fhcrc.org), Re: Seattle Joy of 9/11 who volunteered to do Noonan research for Barb's gift m'ship. LTM Bill Moffet #2156 **************************************************************** From Ric Okay, so far we have nominations for: Dick Strippel - our resident curmudgeon Heather Parker - our Seattle research volunteer Tim Heck - our self-nominated student Any more? ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:41:40 EDT From: Mike Everette Subject: Tachikawa Ki-54 There has been a lot of speculation that the Wreck Photo could be of a Japanese Tachikawa Ki-54, rather than a Lockheed L10E. If anyone is curious as to what a Ki-54 looks like, check out Jeff Ethell's book, Pacific War Eagles in Original WW2 Color. I was thumbing through this one in a bookstore today; toward the end are a number of shots of fields in China and Korea which are full of abandoned Japanese birds. One shot features a couple of Dinah bombers, one marked with green surrender crosses. In the background is a low-winged twin with two-bladed props, and the caption identifies that aircraft as a Ki-54 "light transport" and calls it roughly comparable to the Twin Beech, or C-45. The Ki-54 appears to have a single vertical stabilizer. This is the first photo of a Ki-54 I have ever seen. Maybe others would like to get some clue about it also. 73 GA GL Best DX AR Mike E. the Radio Historian (a bit out of my field, again....) ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:52:34 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Discovery stuff Some thoughts about the Earhart disappearance as vehicle for interdisciplinary teaching. It's just a matter of how far one wants to follow the many paths opened by the various aspects of the investigation. Navigation is just one of many areas that can be expanded to encompass a lot of rather different but related subjects. Navigation specific to the flight. The navigation involved on the last leg of the flight is an interesting and relatively simple example that might excite students. They could learn something about how one determines where he is on the earth and how to go about getting where he wants to be. I don't know anything about navigation but these are some things I think might be done. They're hands-on kinds of things showing how knowledge can actually be used for something. With the aid of an appropriate table (a page of an ephemeris), students could start with the sunrise time (on July 2, 1937) and do what Fred Noonan did to establish the initial Line of Position. This leads into exactly what a LOP is. And they could learn a little about what such tables are. Then they advance that line to pass through Howland Island just as Fred did. And there are other details of exactly what course Fred probably plotted to take them to a point where he would know which way to turn to find Howland. Now the matter is open to consideration of the things that can go wrong with your navigation! You're flying a compass heading, but what direction are you actually going -- what is your course when wind is taken into account? And all of the other things that may have resulted in their not getting close enough to the island to see it. Students could try determining a LOP for their own location. They could use sunrise time from the newspaper or TV weather (most will not be able to see a horizon), and ephemeris tables. The media sunrise/sunset times would need to be checked to see if they are right for a particular location. Then they could explore how they might use that LOP to find their way to some other place. Then on to other aspects of navigation. How do you determine where you are on a LOP? How do you determine where you are, in a more general way, in terms of latitude and longitude? The sextant, the chronometer, and more tables. Using stars to determine location, etc. Students could make a simple sextant and try to find out where they were. It would need to be some variation of a "bubble sextant" again, because most will not have a visible horizon to use. That wouldn't be difficult to contrive. Or they could use a bucket of water! If they could get out at night and find a place dark enough to see the "north star" (Polaris), Latitude would be easy. They could use the media sunrise/sunset times, and the ephemeris, to determine a LOP. That would cross their Latitude and effectively determine longitude... I think. Somewhere in here would be a good place to get in just a little astronomy. Enough to provide some understanding of why it's possible to figure out where you are on the earth by observations of the sun, moon, planets, and the stars. People who know more about navigation can probably suggest a lot of other hands-on things students might do. It's a good opportunity to get in a little of the history of how people learned to find their way around on the earth. I'll refrain from getting into how you find your way around away from the earth -- in interplanetary space! Instead, I'll launch into another area relating to navigation that I find interesting. Another posting..... ************************************************************** From Ric The possibilities really are endless. You should see what Barb Norris is doing with her "pilot program" for our Voyage of Discovery educational applications of the Earhart Project. Her 4th grade gifted/talented class will appear as part of a History Channel documentary on AE that will air on December 19th. On October 3 & 4 they'll be staffing the TIGHAR booth at a local airshow in Coatesville, PA to show the public what they're learning. If you're in the area be sure to stop by. I'll be there to lend moral support, but the kids are the stars of this show. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:57:07 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: End of Magic >On a slightly more serious note, does all this, bay any chance, have a bearing >on the notion of an inverting eyepeice? ************************************************** Only that I was still trying to find out what the heck an inverting eyepeice might be... Like inverting with respect to the real world, or inverting relative to what you normally see in the sextant telescope, and why would one want such a thing, etc., etc?? Current impression is that older sextants normally presented an inverted image of the world. That's the most simple kind of telescope. I STILL have no answer, but I did encounter The Navigator, and this very interesting bit about using a bucket of water in place of a horizon. I've checked that out in my bird-bath in the back yard. If I had a sextant I could do the whole bit! It's obvious it would work. Like so many things seem obvious once you understand them! ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:21:36 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Gift Membership From Ric >Tim qualifies for $30 student membership. Who will step forward and sponsor >him? OK, I'm in for Tim's membership. You got my groaning credit card number. TKing *************************************************************** From Ric Tom, you're a gentleman and a scholar (but we knew that). Congratulations Tim! Please send me an email with your mailing address and we'll send you your membership card, membership sticker, recent issue of TIGHAR Tracks, map of Niku, and uniform. LTM, Ric (just kidding about the uniform) *************************************************************** From Bruce Yoho Sign Tim Up Ric Bill my Card if you need other authorization notify me. LTM Bruce ************************************************************** From Ric Look at this! I'm so proud of you guys I could bust. Surely we have another full-time student out there on the forum who wants to be a TIGHAR member. Step forward and be recognized. Your sponsor will be none other than Bruce Yoho, discoverer/recoverer of the Canton Engine. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:51:24 EDT From: Ann Subject: Gift Memberships I'll sponsor Tim Heck (15 yr.old student). I second the nomination for Dick S. If a sponsor does not come through for him let me know and I'll shake my piggy bank a little more. LTM Ann ************************************************************** From Ric Ann, you're a saint. Here's what I suggest we do. Tom King was first through the door with a sponsorship for Tim Heck. Bruce Yoho stands ready to sponsor another student. We'll use Barb Norris's original open gift membership to sponsor Heather Parker, our Seattle volunteer, and let you welcome the formidable Dick Strippel into the TIGHAR fold. If that is acceptable to all concerned, we'll just need mailing addresses for Heather and Dick. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:36:09 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Ki-54 Mike Everette wrote: >This is the first photo of a Ki-54 I have ever seen. Maybe others would >like to get some clue about it also. If anybody else is interested in seeing the Ki-54, I've posted some images at:- http://www.cv990.demon.co.uk/ki-54/ LTM Simon #2120 ************************************************************** From Ric Good photos Simon. Thanks. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:56:03 EDT From: Mike Everette Subject: Coast Guard on Niku Concerning radio research: In trying to go through a process of elimination, about the cable, I'm hoping to learn what exact system (read: nomenclature of equipment) was installed on Niku by the Coast Guard for the Loran station. If we can find out what the gear was, maybe we can determine the mfr's name (it was probably one of three) and see if they still have any records of what they made in the Dark Ages. Also, I'd like to find out what kind of radio communications equipment the Coasties had. It was undoubtedly Navy gear. Is one of the vets on the forum a former radio operator? The radio gear will be far easier to document than will the Loran transmitters, I fear. Also, if any of those guys were tech types and recalled what specific kinds of test equipment they might have used -- signal generators, pulse generators, pulse analyzers, frequency calibrators, vacuum-tube voltmeters, oscilloscopes etc., that'll help. Such test gear is easy to document. I need to know TYPES: such as, a Navy Model DAS Loran receiver (might have had one on site for quick looks at the pulses from the station); Model LM or LR frequency meters; Model RAO, RBH, RBS radio receivers ( for communications station); Model TBK, TBW radio transmitters (communications station)... this is by no means an exclusive list of types which might have been employed, but is given to illustrate the sort of "letter jumbles" I am seeking. The gear might have been classified under the JAN system which superseded the old Navy letter format; so the format might be something like ID-6/SPA-1 (for a radar pulse analyzer). Again, I am not at all certain this cable came out of the Coast Guard equipment, unless, as Vern thinks, it might have been part of some kind of test setup. If we can ID the gear that was on the island, we can search for tech manuals which would tell us whether such connectors were found in it. Something you told me once: that you were pretty sure the Coast Guard communications station had no voice capability. Did they use Radioteletype (RATT or RTTY)? Or was it all by morse (CW)? If they had RTTY, it is possible that such cables might have been employed in that kind of system. Would one of those guys remember? If he could only tell me the kind of radio receiver they used for the radioteletype setup, I can go from there and pretty well deduce what the rest of the gear was. 73 Mike Everette 2194 *************************************************************** From Ric Okay guys. Memory time. Who can help Mike with this? Just so's you know, Mike has already determined that our cables (Artifact 2-3-V-1 found on Niku in 1996) are NOT co-axial cables but are more accurately described as shielded cables and are of prewar manufacture. One possibility for their origin is a certain civilian airplane which disappeared in the area in 1937, but we have to look at all the alternative sources (British colonial radios and the Loran station). ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:39:45 EDT From: Jim Dix Subject: Label fragment It keeps bothering me, as Niku does not seem to be the Crossroads of the Pacific, who could have left behind a '70's can label? I'm sure there's no sign in sheet, so some sailors could not be accounted for, but I'm talking known visitors. I'd like to see a time line of who has been there and when. I'm sure I could put one together with a lot of digging but my guess you could do it off the top of your head. It sounds like not a lot of folks have been there since it was populated after WW2. LTM Jim Dix 2132 *************************************************************** From Ric The real question would seem to be, "Who is known to have been there since barcodes came into use in the early 1970s?" Between 1970 and 1975 there were two or three visits by botanists and ornithologists from the Smithsonian who were looking at the plant and animal life in conjuction with the SAMTEC missile test program. In October 24-27, 1978 Geomarex corporation surveyed the lagoon for possible mineral deposits. Also in 1978, the about-to-be born Republic of Kiribati did a survey of the island. I don't have a copy of that survey but I think Tom King does. There may have been other visits but those are the ones we know about which preced our first expedition to the island in 1989. In short, there was plenty of opportunity for somebody to build a campfire, eat lunch, and leave a fragment of a can label behind. How the heck the 1930s-vintage woman's shoe parts got mixed up in that is another question. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:48:06 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Welcome RAAF Museum I'd like to welcome to our forum David Gardner, Senior Curator of the Royal Australian Air Force Museum. The RAAFM has one of only two known examples of the Tachikawa Ki-54 (albeit just the fuselage) and David has been helping us make comparisons to the infamous Wreck Photo. We should have some observations to report soon. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:59:05 EDT From: Joel Dunlap Subject: Green Crosses? Mike #2194 mentioned "green surrender crosses". What's the history of that? You should have my credit card. I'll sponsor a student. LTM, Joel #2183 ************************************************************** From Ric Okay, whose has the scoop on the green crosses? Thank you Joel. We're now looking for two students who burn to have a TIGHAR number. This is really wonderful. What better demonstration of our organization's committment to education than when individual members make it possible to share the exciting investigative scientific process with an eager student. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:03:45 EDT From: George Nelson Subject: Re: Green Crosses? When the Japanese accepted the surrender terms they were told to have a delegation fly to Ie Shima (that's a small island off the western tip of Okinawa's Motobutu Peninsular). From there they were flown to Manila to meet with MacArthur's staff to be given the plans for the surrender of Japan. They were told to paint Green Crosses on their aircraft to identify it as carrying the surrender team. G. Nelson **************************************************************** From Mike Everette After the Japanese offered to talk surrender, in August 1945, the Allies ordered them to paint the aircraft which carried the negotiating team (two Mitsubishi G4M Betty bombers) to Tinian, white with green crosses (aligned like plus signs) on the wings and fuselage in place of the meatballs. After the surrender was agreed, all Japanese aircraft in flying condition, and used for administrative work until all flight by Japanese aircraft was halted in late October or early November 1945, were ordered by the Allies to be so painted and marked. A number of Japanese planes were used, manned by Japanese crews and heavily escorted by American aircraft, to carry the Japanese generals to various outlying commands to inform them that the surrender was no joke, and convince these people to lay down arms. That's the short story on the green crosses. Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194 *************************************************************** From Ric You guys are incredible. What did that take? Maybe two hours? The Forum knows all, tells all. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:11:01 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Coatesville airshow do you know where the air show will be held in the coatesville, pa. area? thanks, don neumann **************************************************************** From Ric Chester County Airport 1 Earhart Drive (!) Coatesville, PA 19320 The show runs from 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. Sat. and Sun. Oct. 3 &4. Usual card of aerobatic demos, comedy act, radio control models, and a few "warbirds." Noise, sunburn, hotdogs. You know - an airshow. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:13:22 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Earhart CD Here's a preview of an announcement that will be going up on the TIGHAR website tomorrow: Announcing The Earhart Project Compact Disc Research Library Volume 1 This is the first in a series of CDs for the serious Earhart researcher. Assembled and presented for the first time anywhere are literally thousands of historical documents which tell the true story of the events leading up to and following the disappearance of Amelia Mary Earhart and Frederick Joseph Noonan on the morning of July 2, 1937. The material on Volume 1 was collected, compiled and organized over a period of five years by Dr. Randy Jacobson, TIGHAR #1364, a scientist at the U.S. Navy=92s Office of Naval Research in Arlington, Virginia. TIGHAR is indebted to Dr. Jacobson for his generous contribution of this unprecedented collection of original source material. Contents of Volume 1 The Radio Messages Between October 24, 1936 and May 9, 1938 some 3,239 official U.S. government radio messages chronicle the preparations for the first and second world flight attempts, the ill-fated flight from Lae, the coordination of the massive search that followed the disappearance, and the aftermath of its failure. Every message is here, corrected for time zone and presented chronologically. Instructional sections explain the procedures, call signs and radio shorthand notations used in 1937, enabling the researcher to read and understand the messages just as they were sent. The amount of information in this section alone, if printed out in six point type (like the fine print in an insurance policy) would result in a volume the size of a large city=92s telephone book. The Radio Logs The best source of information about the events surrounding the final flight of Amelia Earhart and the search that followed are the logs kept by the radiomen aboard the Coast Guard cutter Itasca , the Coast Guard radio operator on Howland Island, and by Pan American Airways direction-finding stations on Midway, Wake and Oahu. Each log entry is reproduced, and presented chronologically. Instructional sections explain procedures, call signs and terminology. For ease of use, the content of each message is presented in both the original format and in plain English. Navigational Data This section details the movements, hour by hour, of every ship that participated in the search for Earhart and Noonan. Itasca, Swan, Colorado, Lexington, Lamson, Cushing, and Drayton -where they went, when, and how fast.. Also included is a detailed reconstruction of the 24 hour flight of the PBY dispatched from Pearl Harbor to Howland Island but forced to turn back due to weather. Here too are the movements of USS Ontario, stationed midway along Earhart=92s route from Lae to Howland. In addition, Dr. Jacobson has compiled a navigational analysis of Earhart=92s March 17/18,1937 flight from Oakland, California to Wheeler Field, Oahu. Weather Data This section contains weather information compiled from the bridge logs of all the ships involved in the support of Earhart=92s flight and in the search which followed its disappearance. This is the most accurate information available describing actual, observed weather conditions - including cloud cover, visibility, wind speed and direction, sea conditions, etc. - in the Central Pacific between June 17 and July 21, 1937. Volume 1 of The Earhart Project Compact Disc Research Library is available to TIGHAR members in appreciation for a contribution $100 (tax deductible within the limits of U.S. law) and to non-members for a contribution of $120. Future volumes will include complete copies of the official search reports, the entire Bureau of Air Commerce file on Lockheed NR16020, and much, much more. NOTE: Documents and data are reproduced in PDF format. The CD is compatible with all common hardware systems and requires only a current version of the ubiquitous Adobe Acrobat Reader. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:50:31 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Coast Guard Reunion Unfortunately, I am not going to be able to attend the Coast Guard Loran reunion in Bergin, Kentucky October 1-4 as I had hoped. Time pressures, funding pressures,and other committments are the culprits There are, however, some specific questions we'd like to ask veterans of the Central Pacific Loran operations, especially those who were on Gardner. Perhaps if one of the TIGHAR member veterans who will be attending the reunion could contact me directly by email at TIGHAR1@aol.com we can work up a list of questions and possibly even make arrangements for some videotaped interviews. Ric ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:53:01 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Ki-54 Roger the good photos" comment. Just a couple of passing comments on the Ki-54 in U.S. markings. check out those industrial strength gust locks -- being as it was in Ohio at time, I guess they were preparing for a tornado. Also, where's the tail wheel? That bad boy won't get far dragging its butt like that! ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:56:51 EDT From: Daryll Bolinger Subject: Flight Simulator I just wanted to make sure the Forum was aware of an add-on for the Microsoft Flight Simulator that will be out in October. The title is Around the World. You can now recreate AE's flight on your PC. It might be fun to run different navigational scenarios on the last leg. To find it on the net go to the Abacus home page, http://www.abacuspub.com Once you find the product list click on Around the World. Don't pass up the reviews that some people have done. Daryll ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:07:29 EDT From: Barb Norris Subject: Re: Coatesville airshow Ahhh...but TIGHAR will be there, so it won't be your run-of-the-mill kind of gathering. It'll be much more interesting. See you there. LTM, Barbara Norris ************************************************************** From Don Neumann thanks for the info, will try to make the show & look for the TIGHAR booth, hope you can make it too! a.e. had some friends in the allentown, pa. area, i'll send you photocopies of some old newspaper articles from the local paper covering a story about one of her visits. don neumann *************************************************************** From Ric Oh, I'll be there all right, surrounded by the brightest, most enthusiastic pack of 4th grade TIGHARs ever known. I just hope there isn't any trouble. They're like a school of piranha. They can skeletonize a conspiracy-theorist in 30 seconds flat. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:11:39 EDT From: Mike Everette Subject: Green Crosses again Oooops. I stand corrected... the Japanese delegation did not go to Tinian, but Ie Shima, in their specially marked Betty bombers. That's what I get for typing before checking the reference books. My memory isn't photographic! 73 Mike E. #2194 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:59:20 EDT From: Heather Parker Subject: from out of the blue I will wait for full confirmation, of course, but I wanted to let you know how thrilled and honored I was to be nominated for this membership. I have been looking forward to getting into the Noonan Project in any case, but this certainly adds another dimension for me. What a joy to be an actual member and to be able to sign my email with my own TIGHAR #. Many many thanks, in advance, to all concerned, especially Barb Norris, Bill Moffet, Jerry Hamilton (Captain of the Noonan Project), and yourself. I look forward to adding fodder to the forum... Into the blue, Heather Parker *************************************************************** From Ric Your membership is confirmed and your card, sticker, and secret decoder ring (we really ought to do that sometime) will be sent out next week. Your sponsor is TIGHAR's Development Director for Education, Barbara Norris (#2175). Welcome Aboard Heather! And love to mother, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:19:16 EDT From: Ann Subject: Membership for Strippel Ric, Yes I'm happy to be a sponsor. Do you have my c card info.? Ann #2101 ************************************************************** From Ric Yup, all set. And thank you. Congratulations to Dick Strippel who will become an official TIGHAR member as soon as he acknowledges Ann's gift by sending us his mailing address. For those who may not be aware, Dick Strippel is an Earhart researcher and author who has long held that the flight probably went down at sea. His postings to the forum have been, to say the least, colorful. (In case you hadn't noticed: Membership in TIGHAR does not necessarily imply endorsement or acceptance of TIGHAR's conclusions but merely indicates an acknowledgement that an honest, academically-based, and somewhat organized attempt is being made to discover the truth about the Earhart disappearance.) ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:20:43 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Loran equipment For Richard Evans... Do you recall the military designation of the station equipment and who manufactured it? As we prowl the literature, it would be helpfull to know if we may be looking at the exact equipment that was installed on Gardner Island. Thanks much! ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:02:14 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Project Book What is the status of the Project Book I paid for last May? You mentioned waiting for Noonan's head measurement results? Do we expect this soon? LTM, Mike *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks for your patience. We initially intended to publish the new Project Book in July but then research results started coming in so fast that we decided to postpone publication rather than put out something that would be instantly obsolete. Of course, this is always a problem when reporting on an on-going investigation, but over the past few months this project has really accelerated. Some of that is due, I'm sure, to TIGHAR's greatly increased research capability via this forum, but there is also the feeling of pieces dropping ever more rapidly into place as the jigsaw puzzle nears completion. In just the last few weeks, the identification of the label fragment as being of relatively modern origin prompted a major change in our hypothesis about where on the island the bones were found. The biometric comparison of Hoodless's measurements of the skull found on Gardner with photos of AE and Noonan has been delayed by the unavailablity of our forensic imaging specialist. However, recent consultations with our forensic anthropologist, Dr. Karin Burns, have indicated that such comparisons may be of little value because our ability to accurately measure skull width and length in the photos is greatly hindered by the subjects' hair. A comparison of eye orbit measurements will be of some use but will hardly be diagnostic. On the other hand, the application of Hoodless's measurements to modern forensic software (far superior to anything available in 1941) should give us some insight into whether or not the castaway of Gardner Island might have been someone we're looking for. That information should be available within two weeks and could conceivably either blow us out of the water on this whole bone business or greatly strengthen the possibility that the bones were (are?) part of the Earhart puzzle. But, if we're lucky, this rapid updating of research results is a problem that will only get worse. You and many others have paid for a product that should be delivered, so let me say this. I'll do my darndest to get the thing ready to go by November 1. Howzat? (By the way, the Earhart Research Library CD, Volume 1 master is ready now. We should have production copies ready to ship in a matter of days.) LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:11:02 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Coast Guard on Niku I vaguely remember that the Gardner inhabitants also had a radio/radio shack, and in your first expedition, you found a lot of batteries off-shore that seemed to come from that station. What about the cabling originating from British or Gilbertese sources? *************************************************************** From Ric That's correct. The radio gear used by the British colonial authorities must be considered as a possible source of the cables, especially since they were found only a hundred meters or so from the island wireless shack. Mike Everette has also been researching that aspect of the problem and is, as I understand it, currently waiting for replies to inquiries. Pinning down what these cables can and can not be is a much bigger research project than it might first appear. Mike is to be commended for his rigorous approach to this difficult, but potentially important line of investigation. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:25:11 EDT From: Tim Heck Subject: Re: Gift Membership Dear Ric and Mr. King, Thank you so much for the complementary membership. You truly live up to my schools motto of being men and women for others. Once again thanks. Tim ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Tim. Yes, "Men and women for others" is a worthy motto and quite applicable to TIGHAR (or did you mean just me and Tom? Hmmm.) ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:28:39 EDT From: Tim Heck Subject: Green Crosses? The Green Crosses were markings specified by Allied High Command at the end of WWII for Japanese planes carrying surrender delegations to and from negotiations, and for carrying around news after the surrender. I know that a Betty was used, as well as an Oak (a little known plane similar to the T-6). Others surely must have been used, I just can't remember right now. Broken Wings of the Samurai by David Nikish (?) has photos of the planes, and I have a few lying around here somewhere in books or magazines. Tim ************************************************************** From Bob Sherman > but Ie Shima, in their specially marked Betty bombers. Who's counting, but wasn't the island, O Shima? RC 941 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:30:22 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Ki-54 thanks for the excellent web photos! at first glance (except for the tail assembly) this plane certainly bears a very strong resemblance to the electra, though not as graceful, sort of "stubby"! don neumann ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:42:55 EDT From: Dick Evans Subject: Coast Guard on Niku Sorry, I wasn't smart enough or interested enough to learn about all that stuff. The only thing I can tell you for sure is that we had NO voice radio. Everything was Morse Code. I understand that you were once in contact with Ernie Zehms. He came from Wisconsin but someone said he now lives in California. I don't know. I live in Pennsylvania so I seldom see those kind of people. He was the first class Technician in charge of the Loran equipment. If anyone can do it, he can give you some of the answers - if you know how to find him. Dick Evans ************************************************************** From Ric Expedition team member Russ Matthews 0509CE interviewed Ernie Zehms a few years ago. I wonder if we still have his address? (Russ is also one of those kind of people who moved to the Left Coast.) **************************************************************** From Dick Polley I was a Loran operator and as far as I can recall the radio equipment was only morse code. There was no voice transmission. I seem to remember Ric mentioning contacting Ernie Zehms who was an electronic tech first class and I'm sure he would remember all that sort of equipment. Also, I don't know if you all were aware of the radio station in the native village. I don't recall if it was cw or phone. I know that there was one fellow that spoke english and I believe he came from Australia. Maybe the shielded cable came from some of his gear. I'm quite sure that none of the Coast Guard electronic gear made it's way to the village. We had very limited contact with the natives. The came up to visit us more than we went to visit them. Ric, if you could let me know how to get in contact with Ernie Zehms I would sure appreciate it. Dick Evans might be able to shed some light on this subject also. Dick Polley 2190 *************************************************************** From Ric Well, looks like we need to re-locate Ernie. As for the villagers getting their hands on Coast Guard radio gear, that's more of a possibility than you might think. When the station was shut down most of the stuff seems to have been abandoned on the island. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:59:59 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Ki-54 tail wheel - retractable ? Yeah, Dennis - I'd noticed the tail on the ground also. Notice that the upper side view of the Ki-54 in the plan which shows the gear retracted has no tail wheel shown. This would seem to indicate that it's retractable too. So maybe the Ki-54 in the photo just has a minor "gear problem" in the back end. I'd also like to welcome David Gardner from the RAAF museum down under. G'day David - can you shed any light on this - does the Ki-54 have a retractable tail wheel ? Cheers Simon Ellwood #2120 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:23:52 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Flight Simulator > You can now recreate AE's flight on your PC. It might >be fun to run different navigational scenarios on the last leg. > To find it on the net go to the Abacus home page, >http://www.abacuspub.com > Once you find the product list click on Around the World. Don't pass up >the reviews that some people have done. > >Daryll Along a similar vein, I've been toying with the idea for a while of creating an accurate Nikumaroro island as scenery for MS Flight Simulator. An accurate model would make interesting flying - particularly in conjunction with the above product (presumably they supply an L10E aircraft with their "Around the World" flight), but it would have to be an accurate and detailed Niku to be any fun. I know fella's, I'll have to get a life. LTM Simon #2120 ************************************************************* From Ric We had the idea a few years ago of recreating Earhart's flight as a flight simulator program on an interactive CD but never had the funding to follow up on it. It was probably inevitable that someone would do it. We're Macintosh- based so I can't really look at the Microsoft product. Whether it's any good or not depends on whether they've built in accurate parameters for the airplane's performance. Garbage in, garbage out. A meaningful program would let you load the airplane up to it's known fuel capacity and require you to follow the known power management profile to achieve the known best economy. You'd have to navigate using the known methods (dead reckoning and celestial) and deal with the somewhat-known weather and winds. You should have the option of putting a "spy camera" aboard, but would have to compensate for the added weight by taking less fuel. You should be free to fly to Truk or Saipan or Mili Atoll, but you have to end up within 100 miles of Howland by 20 hours 42 minutes into the flight. (Just try it.) Or you should be able to fly from there and either try to backtrack to the Gilberts, fly to the Marshalls, or run down the Line of Position toward Gardner. See what happens. It would indeed be a trip to see an accurate representation of Niku come over the horizon. Of course, if you're good enough, you should be able to find Howland and land. Could be a lot of fun and very educational. We know enough about the constraints that effected the flight to be able to construct a pretty accurate simulation, but I somehow doubt that anyone but TIGHAR would actually be obsessive enough to do that. If someone has the capability and the time to fly Microsoft's simulation I'd love to hear a review. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:28:04 EDT From: Jerry Ellis Subject: Re: Coast Guard Reunion A posting suggested to me that is might be nice to take a piece of that darned cable to the Loran reunion to see if anyone there might recognize it. Tom Cook lives in Evansville, IN, I wonder if he is going to that reunion. Jerry E. # 2113 **************************************************************** From Ric I'm going to send Dick Polley photos of the cables as well as a bunch of questions to ask around. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:37:51 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Curious This is more a curiosity question than anything else and may or may not be fodder for the forum . . When you first started the Earhart project you told me you got the idea/tip from a couple of old navy guys that did some plotting, read some old records, etc. and came up the hypothesis that AE and FN could have landed at Niku. I don't remember if you ever mentioned their names to me and I'm curious who they are and what has happened to them? Are you still on speaking terms with them and do they send their love to mother? ((Hey, a new feature for the newsletter: WHERE ARE THEY NOW?!!)) LTM Dennis McGee #0149 ************************************************************** From Ric Those two old navy guys are former USAF Lt. Col. Tom Gannon (TIGHAR 0539) and former USN Cmdr. Tom Willi (TIGHAR 0537). Ten years later they're still speaking to me and just as loving toward mother as the rest of us TIGHARs. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:44:27 EDT From: George Nelson Subject: Re: Green Crosses? No the island was called Ie Shima and I've been there. Incidentally that was the island where Ernie Pyle was killed. George Nelson p.s. when you printed my last message you omitted my membership no. *************************************************************** From Ric A thousand pardons. And a cool, low member number it is. Thanks George. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:55:32 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Status Report - Models The following is my critique of the Electra model sent for evaluation. As you can see, there were a lot of problems. That's not surprising given the abundance of folklore about NR16020. We're now working up detailed specs which we'll send off for the production of a new prototype. It will probably entail the creation of a new mold but fortunately we have sufficient orders to merit the expense. We'll also mount the specs on the TIGHAR website. ************************************************************** I. Fuselage A. General 1. Forward fuselage cross-section is much too square. 2. Nose from windshield forward is too long and incorrectly shaped. 3. Proportions of cockpit windows are incorrect. 4. Loop antenna and hatch position look good. 5. Dorsal fueling port doors missing. 6. Dorsal antenna mast too far aft. 7. Ventral antenna masts are missing. (They shouldn=92t interfere with the stand. They are not on centerline but line up with starboard side pitot tube on "chin." B. Port Side 1. There should be a fifth fueling port door. 2. Size, proportions and placement of cabin window look okay. 3. Size, shape and placement of cabin door and window are incorrect. C. Starboard Side 1. Size, proportions and placement of cabin window look okay. 2. Absence of second larger cabin window is correct. II. Wings A. General 1. Planform looks okay. 2. Aileron placement looks okay. 3. Flap placement looks okay. B. Markings 1. Numbers should be slightly thicker. 2. There should be a light-colored scuff strip at each wing root . 3. Orange paint on leading edge is too bright. 4. Orange paint should be edged in black. 5. Nav light should be more toward leading edge. C. Engines 1. Nacelles and cowlings are too small, mounted too far outboard and are shaped incorrectly. 2. Lip of cowling should be wider. 3. Engine interior looks okay. 4. Propeller shape and hub detail are good but hub shaft is a bit long. III. Tail A. General 1. Planform of horizontal surface looks okay. 2. Elevators and trim tabs look okay. 3. Shape of vertical fins is incorrect. 4. There should be no trim tab on port side vertical fin. B. Markings 1. Orange paint is too bright. 2. Orange paint should be edged in black. 3. Abrasion boots on lower leading edge of vertical fin look okay. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:15:03 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Status Report - Ship Deposit To date we have twelve contributors toward the Reynolds Challenge for a total of $1,150 toward the $8,400 ship deposit for the Niku IIII expedition which is matched by an additional $1,150 toward TIGHAR operating expenses. Gotta raise that other $7,250. No deposit - no ship. No ship - no expedition. No expedition - no Amelia, no Fred, no Electra. Contributors will receive a certficate memorializing their participation in this vital first step in making the Niku IIII expedition a reality. Commodore - $1,000 Captain - $500 Mate - $250 Bosun - $100 Crew - $50 Checks or credit card info can be sent to TIGHAR Reynolds Challenge 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 Credit card info can also be faxed to (302) 994-7945 or phoned in to (302) 994-4410 ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:19:26 EDT From: Dick Evans Subject: Coast Guard on Niku Ric and Dick - Polley that is- The name of the native radio operator was Frank. He was Gilbertese and all of his messages - while we were there - was morse code. I was once in contact with a guy who was part of the crew that took the staion apart. He agrees with you Ric, that most of the equipment was left on the island in crates. Let me know if you find it. Dick Evans ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:26:46 EDT From: Dick Evans Subject: Loran equipment Naw, I don't recall much about the equipment or who made it. We just looked at a green line on the scope for four hours and then got as far from it as we could for the next 8 hours. Never had any idea it would help anybody find AE or FN. We were still operating under the official Navy position that she crashed in the ocean and was never heard from again and that's about all we thought about the affair. That sounds pretty funny now. But for 18 year old kids, we were not much interested in doing anything but getting back to the states where our girlfriends were. Sorry. A couple of us have suggested that someone find Ernie Zehms. He was the chief technician for the radar equipment and might be able to supply some information. Two other guys that might be able to help are Erving Kahan, who lived in Brooklyn (in 1944 of course), and Alponse Costanzo from Cranston, R.I. I never hear a word about either one of them after my relief came and I left. But both were part of the crew that built the station and then stayed as part of the manning detail. Dick Evans ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:25:18 EDT From: Hugh Graham Subject: Re: Ki-54 pictures Thank-you Simon. These are excellent pictures of the Ki-54, especially the one with the engine nacelle covers off. The revealed bulkheads look identical to the "help wanted" wreck photo. Also, the nose is pointy like the wreck, not rounded like the L10E. There are no landing lights in the nose either, which matches the wreck photo. Does anyone have any photos of the L10E with the engine nacelle covers off? An L10E photo(s) on the Tighar web site would be helpful. regards, HAGraham 2201. **************************************************************** From Ric Well - eye of the beholder... To me (and David Gardner whose has a Ki-54 fuselage at the RAAF Museum) the nose of the Tachikawa looks more pointed than the broad nose of the airplane in the photo. The end of the nose is obscured by vegetation so any discussion of whether there are lights there or not is moot. What I see in the engines of the Ki-54 is that the tubes covering the connecting rods are right up toward the front of the engine and very visible, similar to a P&W R985. We see no such feature in the wreck photo, but that could be because the tubes are rusted (if they were steel to begin with). I'll get some photos of the Electra up on the TIGHAR website. I think you'll see that the engine firewalls on the Model are also very much like those in the wreck photo. fro anyone who missed simon's posting - he has mounted several good photos of the Ki-54 on his website at http://www.cv990.demon.co.uk/ki-54/ LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:31:47 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Voyage of Discovery More thoughts about the Earhart disappearance as vehicle for interdisciplinary teaching. Navigational tables and computers in history Navigation depends upon accurate numerical tables -- the tables of an ephemeris. Such tables have existed for a long time, but they were not always very accurate. The calculations necessary to create the tables were carried out by hand, numbers were transcribed by hand, printers set type by hand, and errors sneaked in all along the way. In some cases, errors were even introduced in the printing process. A few type might be loose and would be pulled out by the sticky printing ink roller. The printer would then put them back where he thought they had been. Sometimes he was right, sometimes he was not. Someone did a study of the errors in volumes of numerical tables in use in the mid-1800s. It was found that any given volume would contain hundreds of errors! A lot of shipwrecks were occurring simply because they were not where they thought they were. Their navigational tables were wrong! This was costing a lot of sailors lives and, even worse from the viewpoint of the British government, loss of valuable ships and cargo. At about that time one Charles Babbage thought he had a fix for the problem. He believed he could build a machine that would eliminate all the human errors in producing numerical tables of all sorts. The British government was desperate enough to fund his idea, outlandish as it seemed at the time. Babbage would design and construct what he called a "Difference Engine" because it would utilize the mathematics of finite differences to accomplish its calculations. And it was very much an "engine" consisting of many mechanical parts and operated by a hand crank. A later version would be powered by a steam engine. That one never got off the drawing board. But the concept led to intriguing things. The difference engine would do all the calculations needed to generate numerical tables. It would even produce embossed plates suitable for putting in a printing press. He really had covered all of the opportunities for human error to occur. A portion of the engine was built and sample printed pages were produced. I've seen reproductions of the tables produced. They were not half shabby! Input to the Difference Engine was to be accomplished by punched cards. Shades of early IBM! Actually, these were cards linked together in a hinged fashion -- the whole string of cards being somewhat like a punched paper tape. Like teletype tape. That technology existed in the Jaccard looms in the weaving industry. The cards controlled the weaving patterns. Needless to say, there were lots of problems with producing a machine of many precision parts with the technology and materials available at that time. And there was political opposition to the whole idea -- a waste of money -- it will never work. Funding finally dried up and the engine was never completed. Babbage was already planning a more advanced calculating machine that he called an "Analytical Engine." This one would be steam powered! Probably as a means to find support for his projects, Babbage would have social gatherings in his digs. On one occasion, a young lady was brought to one of the gatherings by a friend. This was Ada Byron, Lord Byron's one legitimate daughter. She would later become Lady Lovelace when her husband was created First Earl of Lovelace. Lady Ada Augusta Lovelace. Ada was intrigued by the concepts of the Analytical Engine. She had been schooled in mathematics. That's a story all in itself. Ada may have seen the implications of what such a calculating engine might do even more clearly than Babbage did. She may have had an intuitive grasp of what might be possible with a machine that could modify its own operation. In 1843 Ada published a set of instructions for the never-to-be-built analytical engine that would calculate the coefficients of a polynomial series. This was pure and simple a computer program written 100 years before there would be a computer to run it on. To be continued... Ada's program in teaching -- sort of. ************************************************************* From Ric By coincidence, we're just now consulting with the National Science Foundation about the math, science and technology connections of this project. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:58:50 EDT From: Chuck Jackson Subject: Ki-56? greetings------I'd be more interested in the ki-56------a development of the lockheed 14---built under lockheed license as the LO before the war (suppose lockheed would tell what year that license was granted, and the names of the lockheed "advisors" that helped the japs get production started (they could still be living!!). somewhere on the web (months ago) i read where japan discontinued LO production on 6 dec 1941!!!!????---how honorable of them. looks to me like the ki-56 development is similar to the "hudson" dev. note from subject web site (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/jap_K.html) that both 54 and 56 are listed as 1941 airplanes. anyone know of any ki-56 s around??????? surely japan has aircraft museums??????????? ************************************************************* From Ric Tachikawa and Kawasaki built the Lockheed Model 14 ("Hudson" was the bomber version built for the British ) under license as the "LO." Later, Tachikawa built a copy of the larger Model 18 (same as the American "Ventura") and called it the Ki-56. Both types used three-bladed propellers. Neither is a candidate for the airplane in the wreck photo. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:20:53 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Bone studies As I've mentioned recently, we expect the results soon of a review of Dr. Hoodless's 1941 evaluation of the bones found on Gardner by TIGHAR's forensic anthropologist Dr. Karin Burns (Member #2071). We, of course, are also seeking other expert opinions about just whose bones those might have been. This just in from Kenton Spading 1382CE, a member of the expedition team: I spoke to the forensics/anthropology/osteology department at Hamline University today. It is official now, they have agreed to help us and are excited about the subject. Ric, you are free to reference this now. I have the green light from them. They will be studying the Hoodless report next week. After that I will be meeting with the forensics team for a full briefing on their opinion. Hamline University is a very well known and respected private college here in St. Paul. They have some top-notch folks there. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:38:42 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: New members Three new TIGHAR members and their numbers: Tim Heck TIGHAR #2208S sponsored by Dr. Tom King 0391CE, TIGHAR's Senior Archaeologist Heather Parker TIGHAR #2209 sponsored by Barbara Norris 2175, TIGHAR's Development Director for Education William Thursby TIGHAR #2210 sponsored by his very own self Here's a guide to the various letters which sometimes follow a member number. S signifies a Student Membership C stands for Course and signifies completion of the Aviation Archaeology and Historic Preservation Course E stands for Expedition and signifies participation in TIGHAR field work B signifies a member of TIGHAR's Board of Directors We're still looking for two students to step forward and accept sponsored memberships from Bruce Yoho 2036E and Joel Dunlap 2183. We're also waiting for Dick Strippel to accept his sponsored membership from Ann Hinrichs 2101. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:55:33 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Reynolds Challenge I'm pleased to announce that we've received our first Commodore ($1,000) contribution to the Reynold's Challenge funding drive to raise the ship deposit for the Niku IIII expedition. We've now raised $2,150 toward the needed $8,400. That's another $6,250 to go. "Who will help gather the grain? asked the Little Red Hen." To refresh your memory: For every dollar donated toward the ship deposit, TIGHAR Board member Dick Reynolds donates a dollar toward TIGHAR's operating expenses, thus enabling us to dedicate the contributed funds specifically toward the deposit. Once the deposit is raised and paid, contributors will recieve a commemorative certificate with the names of all those who helped make this vital first step possible. Contributors are recognized as: Commodore - $1,000 Captain - $500 Mate - $250 Bosun - $100 Crew - $50 You can send a check, payable to TIGHAR, or credit card info to: TIGHAR Reynolds Challenge 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 or fax or phone your credit card info to; fax - (302) 994-7945 phone - (302) 994-4410 LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:18:28 EDT From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Re: Ki-54 pictures It also appears that the prop pitch change mechanism is much different. Possibly a diaphragm membrane is used rather that a piston. Note how flat the hub looks on the one with the mechanic sitting on it. LTM Bruce *************************************************************** From Ric There's one photo where the spinner is missing on the right engine but I can't see well enough to tell whether counterweights are present. In enhanced versions we can see what appear to be counterweights in the Wreck Photo. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:48:58 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Types of errors Gene Dangelo, in a private mail to me, pointed out something I hadn't heard before: <> I'm trying to get my tiny mind around this. Let's tackle Type I first. "Reject the ... lack of relationship.." That's sort of a double negative. It would seem to mean - I've got some variables which truly lack any relationship to each other but I reject that and insist that a relationship exists where there really is none. An example might be the disappearance of Earhart and stories about a short-haired white woman in Japanese custody. Or, if we have made a Type I error, the disappearance of Earhart and the discovery of bones on Niku. Okay, I think I understand what a Type I error is. It's being pig-headed and insisting that unrelated random pieces are parts of a puzzle. Now let's tackle Type II. "To retain a false lack of relationship" I get it. This is being pig-headed and insisting that things aren't connected which actually ARE part of the same puzzle. We've made a Type II error if all those anecdotes about the short-haired white lady are, in fact, connected to the Earhart disappearance. Conversely, our critics may be making a Type II error when they insist that there is no connection between the Earhart disappearnace and the stuff that has been found on Niku. Whew. Now I'm trying to figure out why scientists can't just say what they mean. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:57:36 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Wreck Photo Hi, Ric- The Wreck Photo is perhaps your greatest find, only wish there were some way to find out where??????? *************************************************************** From Ric Well, I can't take any credit for finding it but I agree that it's a very intriguing find. If it is a picture Earhart's Electra, I have a pretty good hunch where it was taken. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 09:41:28 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: Types of errors Just a quick note: in research texts, that "lack of relationship" will be formally referred to as a "null hypothesis." Also, you seem to have the basic principles down well (although I don't know if the trait of pigheadedness is necessarily a motivating factor in committing either error). It is most interesting to look back over one's work armed with such knowledge. For me, it has been a quite humbling experience on more than one occasion! Onward and Upward!---Gene Dangelo :) *************************************************************** From Ric I've found that the "null hypothesis" approach can be a very useful way of looking at what appears to be evidence. For example: The null hypothesis of the Japanese capture stories would go something like, "The many and varied anecdotal accounts which seem to describe Amelia Earhart in Japanese custody, if not fabricated, in fact describe an individual or individuals other than Earhart." How difficult is that to believe? Conversely, the null hypothesis of TIGHAR's proposition would go something like, "The evidence (documentary, physical, and anecdotal) which appears to connect Nikumaroro to the Earhart disappearance is, in fact, unrelated data similar to that which could be gathered at any randomly selected and closely examined Pacific Island." How difficult is that to believe? And you're absolutely right about the painfulness of looking back over your previous work. I can't speak for anyone else, but I can certainly attest to the element of pigheadedness in my many errors. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 09:48:38 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Types of errors This is a well known concept in mathematics. A relationship between two objects, A and B, lets say have these characteristics: If both are related, then one can either declare them related (positive) or not related (negative, otherwise known as a false positive). If they are unrelated, then one can declare them unrelated (negative), or related (false negative). There are four possible outcomes, of which two may be true, and two may be false. Type I error is a false negative; Type II error is a false positive. *************************************************************** From Ric All of which goes to show that, with enough effort, simple common sense can be turned into a system for inducing migraines. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 10:25:39 EDT From: Dustymiss Subject: Membership wanted I know this is a little late - But I have been directing a play and have not been on line for a while - and although not a student, (except of life) I would be happy if someone would sponsor me the $30.00 and I'll pitch in the $15.00. I can even chip in for half a membership but have not found a way to free up the whole sum. I do feel rather a freeloader to partake and enjoy this very important and wonderful forum without being a member - and have always planned to be so eventually - but I've never had the funds within my grasp - so if the offer is still good and this idea of me pitching in for half the cost, with a kindly benefactor supplying the other half is acceptable - I would be most honored to join. And will keep trying to contribute in any way I can. I truly admire the work of TIGHAR and the dedication to and pursuit of the truth - while keeping perspective with a healthy sense of humor. If only the rest of the world worked this way - However if splitting the membership in half is not a workable idea - I understand too - Sometimes exceptions like this can open a can of worms (or ping pong balls, perhaps). And if this will not work - I'll still look for ways to be of service and bide my time until an extra 45.00 finds its way to my bank account. Thanks for your time - Keep up the good work - Love to Mother - Dustymiss *************************************************************** From Ric Lordy, if there was ever an opportunity for a knight in shining armor.... Bruce? Joel? You've both offered to sponsor a student. Someone else? First one to gallop through the castle gate gets to do the rescue. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:09:52 EDT From: Nancy Lemon Subject: Sponsor for Dusty Ok, I'd like to sponsor Dustymiss for a regular membership. Our loonie is currently at 65 cnts U.S. so this shouldn't hurt tooo much! Great work guys! Nancy Lemon#2106 **************************************************************** From Ric Thank you Nancy. (So much for my sexist call for a knight in shining armor.) Congratulations Dustymiss, and welcome to TIGHAR. We'll need your other name and your mailing address via direct email to me at TIGHAR1@aol.com. Still looking for a couple of students. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:27:27 EDT From: Joel Dunlap Subject: Sponsorships OK! Get out of the way of my galloping steed! Give my student donation to my daughter Megan who attends BYU in Utah and I'll donate another student donation to Dustymiss. Now water and feed my horse! I've got dragons to chase! LTM Joel #2183 ************************************************************* From Ric Oooops. Too late. These days the fair damsels rescue each other before you can say "What Ho!." Is chivalry dead? Send us Megan's address and we'll keep an eye out for another student. The Earhart Project is fast becoming The Children's Crusade - (or perhaps the move toward student sponsorships more closely resembles the Catholic church's old Pagan Babies campaign). Anyway, it's great! ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:35:02 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Label fragment > Also in 1978, the about-to-be born Republic of Kiribati did a survey of the > island. I don't have a copy of that survey but I think Tom King does. Yes, I do, and will supply a copy to the TIGHAR archives forthwith; I thought you had it, Ric. Anyhow, it's the "Report of the Expedition to Nikumaroro 1978" by a rather sizeable team from the Kiribati Ministries of Natural Resource Development, Health, Works and Public Utilities, and Trade and Communications, some 14 people in all. In the Agriculture section of the report there's an allusion to a 1974 "agricultural tour and report" by M.E.H. Vickers; no source is given for this report. The '78 team had a pretty ambitious agenda: They were to assess the coconut groves and other agricultural areas, assess the fishing potential, test water supplies, dig sample wells, check the existing cisterns, erect "a third rainwater catchment," survey possible airfield sites, and look for a good radio station site. They seem to have camped near the cistern and to have been there at least a couple of weeks. There's no indication of a woman on the team, with or without shoes. LTM Tom King ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:53:22 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: types of errors I suspected that the Type I and Type II errors were well known as mathematical concepts when I first learned of them in my doctoral program's Introduction to Educational Research course at Pitt, because the Professor who taught it was (and is) also the teacher of the Statistics course in the same department, and he was a real whiz at all of it! The four outcomes of which Randy speaks were usually depicted in a square with four quadrants, each yielding one of those four outcomes. Isn't research fun? ------Gene Dangelo 2211 :) ************************************************************** From Ric Yes, and so are new TIGHAR members. Welcome to Gene who is now all official as TIGHAR number 2211 (cool number). ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:31:28 EDT From: Joel Dunlap Subject: New members, new idea I knew the internet was fast but I didn't think it was that fast!! Ok, find me another student to rescue with that second donation! These young students these days have brilliant minds. Maybe if we get enough involved in many different locations and universities, who knows what they may find. They may be able to even get some schools excited and involved and their parents too. Don't forget, many of these students have Daddy's credit card! LTM Joel ************************************************************* From Ric Here's an idea. We could put a notice on the TIGHAR website. Something like: "Need your prop spun? Are you a full-time student with a passion for aviation history? Are you itching to be a full-fledged member of the world's leading aviation archaeological foundation? Are you also broke? Register for the Amelia Earhart Search Forum and apply for TIGHAR's SMP (Sponsored Membership Program or Spin My Prop). Dedicated TIGHAR members frequently sponsor new memberships for students. We all sometimes need a little help to get the engine started." Whadya think? I kinda like it. LTM, Ric ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:53:39 EDT From: Joel Dunlap Subject: Re: New members, new idea >From Ric > >Here's an idea. We could put a notice on the TIGHAR website. Something like: > >"Need your prop spun? >Are you a full-time student with a passion for aviation history? Are you >itching to be a full-fledged member of the world's leading aviation >archaeological foundation? Are you also broke? Register for the Amelia >Earhart Search Forum and apply for TIGHAR's SMP (Sponsored Membership >Program >or Spin My Prop). Dedicated TIGHAR members frequently sponsor new >memberships for students. We all sometimes need a little help to get the engine >started." That new idea spins my prop! LTM, Joel 2183 ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:49:58 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Swan officers Ric: update on some of the Swan crew. The officer's names on the deck logs were: CK Harper, CE Napier, and JP Sorensen. The C.O. was Cecil Harper, retired as a Captain in 1964, was a pilot and later commanded PBY units and A/C carrier units. Passed away in 1972 in Florida. I am in contact with the family, looking for any additional information. Charles E. Napier only recently passed away, Feb., 1997, in Indiana. John P. Sorensen passed away in Oregon in 1977. These officers were in their late twenties and early thirties. Possibly when the muster rolls show up, there will be some sailors who were late teens or early twenties who would now be in their seventies. Darn, we men don't live very long. Is that a conspiracy? Smooth Sailing, Ron 2126 *************************************************************** From Ric You might call it that. Especially for the WWII generation. The perpetrators of the conspiracy have names like Phillip Morris and R. J. Reynolds. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:18:39 EDT From: M. Youngquist Subject: Amelia's shoes I was just perusing the EBAY auction site at www.ebay.com looking for Amelia "stuff" when I came upon a 7x9 wire photo of Amelia taken in 1932. It's a great shot, in my opinion, because you get a good look at her feet and the type shoe/boot she is wearing. I was wondering if this will help you at all in your quest for shoe measurements. M. Youngquist *************************************************************** From Ric I'll take a look but we really don't have a quest for shoe measurements. We've got 'em. The shoes AE was wearing 10 days before she disappeared were roughly 278 mm long. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:59:39 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: more Swan travels Ric: For what its worth, this mention of the USS Swan is from Eric Hannen's book, Air War Pacific. This is regarding Nov. 1943 and isn't mentioned in the account given by Dictionary of American Fighting Ships. -------------------- During the night of November 13–14, USN Task Force 57* land-based bombers attack targets at Tarawa and Makin atolls and Nauru Island. * For the upcoming Gilbert Islands invasion, Task Force 57 is organized as follows: Task Force 57 [RAdm John H. Hoover, USN]: Task Group 57.2 (Striking Group) [MajGen Willis H. Hale, USAAF, Commanding General, Seventh Air Force]–11th and 30th Heavy Bombardment groups (90 B-24s); Task Group 57.3 (Search and Reconnaissance Group) [RAdm John H. Hoover]–VD-3 (6 PB4Ys), VP-53 (12 PBYs), VP-72 (12 PBYs), VB-108 (12 PB4Ys), VB-137 (12 PVs), VB-142 (12 PVs), and tenders USS Curtiss, USS Mackinac, and USS Swan, based at Nanomea, Nukufetau, and Funafuiti; Task Group 57.4 (Ellice Islands Defense and Utility Group) [BriGen Lewie G. Merritt, USMC, Commanding General, 4th Marine Base Defense Aircraft Wing]–Marine Air Group 13 and Marine Air Group 31 (90 F4Us and 72 SBDs), VS-51 (8 SBDs and OS2Us), VS-65 (8 SBDs and OS2Us), VS-66 (8 SBDs and OS2Us) Smooth Sailing, Ron 2126 *************************************************************** From Ric Also gives a pretty good picture of the airplane types in use in the area at the time of greatest operational activity (the Tarawa invasion). After that the war moved west and the Central Pacific got a lot quieter. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:50:39 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: pigheadedness I know this is wa-a-a-a-y off-topic, but that's TIGHAR for you. Ric's quote: "I can't speak for anyone else, but I can certainly attest to the element of pigheadedness in my many errors." In defense of hogs, the term pigheadedness has given pigs a bad name. The term, as now used, means to be stubborn, or obstinate, and in fact originally meant free or unshackled. The term originates from the medieval myth -- yes, MYTH -- that pigs can not be herded, like cows and sheep and tend to wander around on their own. Thus, pigheadedness took on the sense of being free, adventuresome and later, by extension, stubborn and being set in one's ways. As a former sod buster-cum-hog farmer, I've found pigs are really are quite intelligent -- as can be witnessed any re-run of "Green Acres!" -- and in fact can be herded, I am proud to say. It just takes a lot of people to do it. So, be kind to our bristly-haired independent thinkers, and don't be ashamed to think of them as "the other white meat." Just use lots of B-B-que sauce. M-m-m-m-m, good! LTM Dennis McGee #0149 ************************************************************** From Ric Ah, the educational benefits of the forum. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:26:55 EDT From: Sam Ginder Subject: Re: Types of errors You don't get the migraines until you get into truth tables with more than 3 conditions. Sam Ginder (#2180) ************************************************************** From Ric Truth tables? More than 3 conditions? Oh Lord. I flunked high school algebra. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:57:32 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: pigheadedness Dennis wrote > So, be kind to our bristly-haired independent thinkers, and >don't be ashamed to think of them as "the other white meat." Just use >lots of B-B-que sauce. M-m-m-m-m, good! But one must always keep in mind the wisdom of Mark Twain: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and it annoys the pig." Tom Tom Robison Ossian, Indiana ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:53:39 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: pigheadedness > But one must always keep in mind the wisdom of Mark Twain: >"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and it annoys the >pig." >Tom Robison Yeah, and remember what they do to pigs - cut off their heads and stick an apple in their mouths and roast them. Love to Mother Dave Bush #2200 *************************************************************** From Ric Now, now... surely we can be more tolerant of our critics. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:55:33 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Types of errors >From Ric > >Truth tables? More than 3 conditions? Oh Lord. I flunked high school >algebra. Well, if you want to avoid truth tables, go into politics. But remember, the truth is out there, so stay in doors. LTM Dave Bush #2200 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:06:56 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Types of errors I think a truth table is something you set a bucket on to level it before filling it with pingpong balls with a goniometer. *************************************************************** From Vern 2124 Different kind of algebra, Ric. Has to do with logic. Maybe you could plug some of the Earhart Search stuff into a Boolean truth table with the whole mess of "maybe" things we speculate about and see what shakes out! ************************************************************** From Ric Buckets of balls on a Boolean truth table. Forum surrealism strikes again. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:26:20 EDT From: Jack J. Subject: Re: 10B?, 10C, and or 10E to PAA I do not know which reference source is correct, but the book "Lockheed Aircraft since 1913" by Rene J. Francillon lists two L-10 Cs going to PAA; registration #s NC 14258, and NC 14259, production numbers 1005 and 1006. Further, two L-10 Es also went to PAA; numbers 1042 and 1043, registration #s NC 14972, and NC 14973. I have not as yet found the delivery dates of these aircraft. Note: The Williams Brothers model of the L-10 E has been released. It was originally said to be a 1/48 scale model, but the release info indicates the scale to be 1/53. A 53 foot wingspan at 1/53 scale equals 12 inches, how convienient. I thought you and your readers might be interested in this tid bit. As a suggestion from a parent of two in the cathedrals of higher learning, one of which is in the University in central Indiana where AE was an advisor, I am currently and regretibly unable to afford one of the L-10 E resin cast models offered by Tighar. As a thought, I suppose there are others out there like me who would like to own an accurate scale model of the Electra NR 16020. Consider selling the model as a kit to be finished by the buyer. I still think Tighar could sell a softback book of detailed information about NR 16020, or at least a special edition of the Tighar publication. Or, how about a "photo-pack" of pictures of the Electra, Nikko, FN, etc. Just some thoughts. I hope you don't mind! PS: I still think a calander could be profitable. LTM Jack J. **************************************************************** Ric I left out the L-10 C , production # 1019 , NC 14906 which also went to PAA. No. 1133 and 1134 were L-10 Es, that were originally sold to SACO South American something-or other. I bet one of the readers know what airline or government this is! The airline could have even been a subsidiary of PAA, if the aircraft ended up in PAA's inventory later on. Sorry I missed this in my first attempt to support a fellow "Jack". LTM Jack J. *************************************************************** From Ric The Model 10 had a 55 foot wingspan. We could certainly provide contact information so that anyone interested in building a plastic model could get one from Williams Bros. but we probably wouldn't get involved commercially. A special publication with detailed information on NR16020 is a good idea.