Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:39:07 EDT
From:          Tom King
Subject:      Responses to 1992 article

Just a couple of comments on that article that Ric "wouldn't let us see":

1. I subscribed to the Pacific Daily News for the two years I lived on Saipan and in Chuuk (1977-79) and for a couple of years thereafter, and had some articles about me published therein.  It's a pretty decent rag, but it ain't the New York Times.

2. Regarding:

"Mary DeWitt, 43, of Fort Worth, Texas, was the photographer hired by TIGHAR to take pictures on the island."

Comment:  As far as I know, Mary was a volunteer like the rest of us.  She had, and I presume still has, a deep interest in the Earhart mystery.  Like a number of us, she experienced a good many interpersonal problems on the '89 Niku expedition, and afterwards was quite bitter -- and pretty vindictive -- about the whole thing.

"She said the box was found on the first day out."

I think that's true.  It was near the Cooperative Store, which is close to the landing.  I think we first noted it when we first came ashore.  At this point we weren't picking up anything, and assumed that the village was the last place we'd want to look for airplane parts.

"She said it was used as a firebreak, and after inspection, was discarded."

I don't think she means that WE used it as a firebreak, but that it had been used as such by the colonists.  I think that was something we speculated about as we kept stumbling over the thing en route to and from the landing.  The implication that it was "discarded" after "inspection" is misleading.  It was left in place after we first noted it, and thereafter, because we weren't yet focussed on the notion that airplane parts might be in the village.  We thought the plane was probably elsewhere, and that it would be harder to separate them out from all the other junk in the village than to just find the plane, which we thought was sitting on the reef or in the jungle someplace (We were SO naive!).

"It wasn't until the day the expedition team left Nikumaroro that Gillespie decided to bring it back as evidence, DeWitt said."

I think that's true.  By the end of the first expedition we'd sadly concluded that the plane wasn't sitting happily around someplace, and we HAD begun to find suggestive items in the village.  The potential value of scattered parts collected by the colonists began to dawn on us, and we picked up a lot of aluminum pieces toward the end of the expedition.

"DeWitt said the aluminum box was probably left by the Gilbertese or members of the Coast Guard because it was found in an area where both groups picnicked."

Well....  It was found in a Gilbertese house site near the Cooperative Store. It's pretty certain that the Gilbertese were there, and it seems probable that the Coasties visited.

"There was a general feeling that not much else would be discovered," said DeWitt, who braved the island's hot weather for three weeks. "We were all over that place."

There was a general feeling of tremendous let-down and disappointment at the end of the first expedition, but the very fact that several of us also "braved the hot weather" (among other things) have been willing to go back and do it some more, and invest a good deal of thought and effort in the overall project, suggests that Mary's opinion may not have been universal.  Of course, maybe RIC'S BRAINWASHED US, DICK!!!

As for having been "all over that place," the '89 expedition was, in a way, our most EXTENSIVE reconnaissance; we did indeed go "all over" the island. But it was a once over lightly for the most part, and there were big areas that got only the most cursory of inspections.  Southwestern Nutiran, for example, where the anecdotal and photographic evidence now suggests the possibility of wreckage, was barely touched.  We walked the beach and poked into the brush a bit, but since we had no particular reason to think anything was there, and because the Scaevola was real thick, we didn't look into it in great detail.

Anyway, thanks for finding lower case, dick.

Tom King
***************************************************************

From Ric

Yes.  Mary DeWitt was a volunteer like everyone else.
***************************************************************
From Simon

Ref: the article that Dick posted:-

Still doesn't eliminate the possibliity that AE & FN died through eating poisonous fish relatively soon after landing. I sincerely doubt they had training in tropical survival techniques. Maude could easily miss bodies - especially in the location where the parts of a skeleton were found. I don't see anything that contrdicts TIGHAR's basic theory here - obviously a few details have been updated after the subsequent trips and further document discoveries.

Simon
**************************************************************

From Bill

> From Dick Strippel
>
> hi, gang:: here's something ric may not want you to see:
>
> ((..large article omitted..))
>
> From Ric
>
> I'll be happy to answer any questions forum members may have about the
> information presented in the above article.  Please don't be shy.

While I'd find a "blow by blow" response to the points in the article interesting, I don't know that they'd actually be all that useful.

I've had the experience of being first-person to a few incidents I later read about in news papers.  The news reports have usually painted a picture of the event that didn't match my own experiences.

I've usually written this off to the reporter working from notes, the need to compress large events into small columns, the natural tendency of humans to view things through their own experiences and/or conceptions (even when they try not to, one of the reasons for the scientific method), editors getting a hand in, the desire to find a story or a bring out a dramatic turn, and so forth.

I don't see why Ric wouldn't want us to read this.  It seems like a typical reporters - eye - view of a series of incidents.

    - Bill
****************************************************************

From Mike Ruiz and the No Land Club*.

The Pacific Daily News article by Santos is a good example of speculative journalism.

TIGHAR'S detailed answers to our questions on this forum helped me to quickly sort fact from fiction.

While interesting, the article is full of holes, and is not applicable to helping us solve this mystery.

Next.
***************************************************************
From Tim

Please inform me why TIGHAR hates Strippel, and why he hates you.  I'm confused.
                Tim
**************************************************************

From Ric

If I hated, or felt threatened by, Dick Strippel do you think that I'd post stuff like that article?  Dick once wrote a book arguing that Earhart crashed at sea.  Now he seems to be upset that not everyone agrees with him. His hatred, if that's what it is, is not reserved only for TIGHAR.

Our problem with Mr. Strippel has not been with his opinions, but his manner. At least with this most recent attack he has abandoned ALL CAPS invective and is now dredging up old, poorly researched newspaper articles.  Eventually he'll figure out that the harder he tries, and the more he fails, to knock holes in TIGHAR's work, the better we look.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:59:44 EDT
From:          Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: AE time in type

>Bottom line:  It's hardly surprising that she lost it in Hawaii, but by the
>time she took off from Lae she was very proficient in the airplane.

Also, seems to me that the number of hours here could be a little misleading. AE seems to have done quite a lot of long hops resulting in, perhaps, fewer landings & takeoffs (the "difficult" bits :-) so her "experience" may have been less than the hours indicate.

I agree with Ric's comments about it not being surprising she ground looped at Hawaii due to low multi hours. With those big engines you'd have to be quick to react to a problem.

However, relating this to the July 2nd disappearance, surely her lack of specifically multi-engine experience doesn't really come into play here. If both engines are functioning then isn't it just like having two sets of levers instead of one ?  (I'm showing my inexperience here - I only have a single rating - Ric's gonna tear me to pieces :-)

She was obviously a seasoned enough pilot to know that if she was gonna have to ditch or force land on an island then it should be done whilst still under power with some fuel left, avoiding the possibility of one engine stopping before the other when fuel was very low.
Simon

***************************************************************

From Ric

I agree with Simon that, once the takeoff was successfully accomplished, multi-engine experience (or lack thereof) had little to do with the July 2nd flight.

AE's attitude toward the prospect of ditching the Electra is worth discussing. She never actually expounded on the subject, as far as I know, but certain of her actions seem to indicate that she didn't think much of the idea. The inventory of the airplane taken after the March 20 crackup reveals that no liferaft was aboard - just personal life vests.  But no parachutes were in the inventory either.

"Last Flight" claims that, to save weight, parachutes were sent home from Darwin, Australia during the second world flight attempt.  However, newspaper articles datelined Darwin report that parachutes were shipped there in advance and picked up by AE and FN when they arrived.  We have no way of knowing whether the 'chutes were aboard for the Lae/Howland leg or whether there was a liferaft on the airplane at that time.

Interestingly, when Linda Finch was planning her recreation of the world flight she was very concerned about the prospect of having to ditch her Electra.  She pointed out that the nose structure of the airplane forward of the wing (i.e. the cockpit) is of extremely lightweight construction which might well collapse, trapping the occupants in the event of a water landing.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:02:53 EDT
From:          Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: Fred's head

Ric wrote:

>I talked to Jeff Glickman at Photek about Mike Ruiz's idea of comparing Dr.
>Hoodless's 1941 measurements of the skull with photos of Fred's head.
> . . .
>Biometrics is a well-established and well-accepted form of identification.
>The standard is usually six measurements of a skull.  If all six match photos
>of the person in question, the ID is considered to be absolutely positive.
>
>We don't have six measurements. We have four - the width and height of the eye
>socket and the length and breadth of the skull.  We do have lots of pictures
>of Fred and Amelia.  In Jeff's opinion, it's worth a shot.

Sounds very promising and exciting.

Where is the skull now  - you obviously have access to it ?

Simon
***************************************************************

From Ric

Lord no.  That's the point.  All we have to go on are the measurments taken by Dr. Hoodless in 1941.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:07:40 EDT
From:          Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Biometrics

Here's a quick tidbit to add about this: In March, 1992, Christopher Joyce and Eric Stover published a book entitled, "Witnesses From The Grave," which is an excellent accounting of the forensic pathology involved in human identification from skeletal remains, as was undertaken by scientist Clyde Snow. He identified the remains of Nazi Death Camp Doctor Josef Mengele, among others. Maybe Clyde's the expert to look at the bones in question!

Thanks,   Gene Dangelo :)

****************************************************************

From Ric

Look. Guys. Read my lips.  We don't have any bones (yet anyway).  We have some measurements taken of the bones by a British doctor in 1941.

We worked with Clyde Snow in excavating the baby grave on Niku in 1991.  We were in daily contact with him via satellite phone while we were conducting the dig.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:23:18 EDT
From:          Mike Strickland
Subject:      Wreck photo resolution

Simon wrote:

> I'm trying to do some more studying of the Wreck Photo.
> Believe it or not, I get a much better image to study if I scan the
> photo in the latest TRACKS rather than use the one on the web page.

This is somewhat off-topic, but the reason you get better image quality from the photo in TRACKS vs. the website is because images for the web are generally no better than 72 dots per inch (dpi) in resolution, whereas print quality images are generally 150dpi resolution or better.  Just thought this might help....

Michael Strickland
A budding AE fan
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:56:37 EDT
From:          Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: On Strippel

I believe this Forum must stay as open as possible to all views. I vote that you continue to choose which of Strippel's comments to send out to the Forum, as you do with everyone else. Besides, I think every group needs a curmudgeon as part of the mix. In any case, a click of the mouse deletes the message - even before reading it.

Blue skies, -jerry
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:58:15 EDT
From:          unknown
Subject:      the biometrics project

There is an excellent picture of FN with Mantz, AE, and Manning in the photograph section between pages 48 and 49 of the Loomis book. Fred has his face turned ever so slightly, but I remember the picture because I thought that it was the best picture of him that I had ever seen, and, indeed, he was a handsome man.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:31:25 EDT
From:          Barb Norris
Subject:      1992 response-comedic relief

I know this is off the subject...but I just want you to know that you make me laugh out loud when I read your responses (like today's for example).  That's not to say that I don't find what you write interesting, au contraire!  but it's nice to have a little comedic relief :)  Thanks for your refreshing outlook.

P.S. Do you provide the entertainment on TIGHAR's expeditions?

Keep 'em smilin'  Tom
Barb

************************************************************

From Ric
To Tom

I you don't tell her, I will.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:34:14 EDT
From:          Don Jordan
Subject:      Re: On Strippel

Jerry Hamilton wrote:

> I believe this Forum must stay as open as possible to all views. I vote
> that you continue to choose which of Strippel's comments to send out to the
> Forum, as you do with everyone else. Besides, I think every group needs a
> curmudgeon as part of the mix. In any case, a click of the mouse deletes
> the message - even before reading it.

I agree with Jerry.  Lets see what Dick has to say.  We can make up our own minds and I know how to delete.

Don
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:51:19 EDT
From:          Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Noonan - attn Wiley

You're back on the Forum, good. The last time, early April, you mentioned some interesting info about Fred Noonan and his first wife. You said she lived in Florida and he had two sons. Do you have any more detail on the sons, or the dates she lived in Florida? Do you know, or have contact with, Helen Day Bible who is mentioned as a friend of Noonan's in the Susan Butler book? Since you weren't able to contact me last time, I'm hopeful I'll hear from you this time. You can contact me at jham@ccnet.com. Thanks for the help.

Blue skies, jham (#2128)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:58:20 EDT
From:          Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Re: Sextants/octants

>Since the late '30's at least (can't vouch for Fred) all aircraft bubble
> 'sextants' were octants.  Their field prism rotated 45 deg. (one octant
> of a circle) to scan from the the horizon to the zenith ; usually with a
> 2 deg over run at each end.

Wouldn't a scan from the horizon to the zenith be 90 degrees?
Jerry W. Ellis
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:17:46 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Reef-flat/Beach landing

>At low tide portions of the reef flat might look really good.>

My question has probably been answered somewhere but I don't remember... Was it low tide when AE and Fred arrived at Gardner around mid-day?

I'm trying to visualize an alternate scenario in which they almost succeed in making a wheel-down landing on the beach.  Sloping beach  too soft... they loose a wing and an engine and the plane is well on the way to looking somwthing like The Wreck Photo. It's on the beach and not far from being in the trees as we see it in the photo.

But I've got a problem getting the lost engine out on the reef where Bruce Yoho found it.  As pointed out earlier engines are not much inclined to migrate.

And another question occurs to me...  Is the island growing?  Does vegetation tend to hold the sand in place and gradually increase the perephery of the island?  Maybe the plane just sat there and the vegetation grew up around it?  Time scale?  Who knows?
****************************************************************
From Ric

We can't be sure what the tidal state was at noon on July 2, 1937. Hindcasting the tide 61 years is tricky, especially when you don't have good current tidal information to begin with. If you're off just 6 hours it's the difference between low water and high water.

We've considered the possibility of a botched beach landing.  It could put a damaged airplane in the bushes, but as you note, it doesn't put an engine on the reef flat for Bruce to find.  Neither does it leave a "piece of a wing" on the reef flat for Tapania to see. Also, the kind of damage to be expected from a ground-loop/cart-wheel accident would include impact damage to the nose that we don't see in the wreck photo.  On the other hand, no matter how it got there, an airplane in the bush is worth a hundred on the bottom of the ocean.

The island does not appear to be growing.  The outline and dimensions seen in the earliest aerial photography (1937,'38,'39) are no different than what we see today.  The vegetation is a different story.  It shrinks and expands with the rainfall over the years.  The beachfront treeline is also affected by storm activity - growing toward the shore in calm years and being ripped up and pushed back in stormy years.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:38:00 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Niku survival

We tend to think AE and Fred may not have had much in the way of survival skills, but they might have learned.  Food was plentiful and there was little that would have got them in trouble.  With pieces of an airplane available, they might even have figured out a solar water distillation gadget.  This little piece of that article caught my attention...

>According to Maude's report, 111 full-bearing coconut trees with plenty of
>nuts were on the ground, the island's lagoon teemed with fish, and fish were
>plentiful along the reef. He also noted thousands of enormous coconut crabs, a
>common food among Pacific islanders.

The Survivor's Handbook cautions about drinking too much coconut "milk," it has a laxative effect!  It also says that all crabs are edible.  Quite a large number of animals are all edible regardless of species.  Perhaps surprisingly, all snakes are edible including the poisonous (bite) species. It's pretty safe to eat fish with scales.  Given any choice, I think one would not be much inclined to try those strange looking ones without scales.

**************************************************************
From Ric

Assuming that you can solve the water problem, the biggest obstacle to survival on Niku (in my opinion) would be illness.  In order to gather food you must be active  - fishing on the reef flat, gathering and opening coconuts, abducting turtles, stalking birds in the bush, wrestling with crabs, etc.   All of these activities present ample opportunities for minor injuries - cuts, scratches, abrasions.  In that environment, without immediate antiseptic care, infection is a given.  The coral on the reef, especially, is a problem.  One little abrasion and you've got trouble (wanna see my scars?).

When I think of bones found in the shade of a tree, I think of somone maybe with a swollen leg and a high temperature, in pain and feeling like hell, unable to go on and just trying to hang on but every day getting worse and worse.  I think I'll stop thinking about that now.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:23:08 EDT
From:          David Kelly
Subject:      Landing on a reef platform

There is one question which puzzles me more than most, if AE did do a forced landing on the reef...would she do it wheels down?  It is impossible to know what she would have seen from say 200 feet looking down at a reef, however, she would not probably not have been able to be certain if the wheels wouldn't dig into something and the aircraft cartwheel.  It would have been safer, I think, to belly land.  We dont know what she did at this point, so all we can do is relate what we think she may have done based on our own perceptions and experience....

As for Mr Strippel, the mere fact that his comments have raised such responses has to be good for generating and testing ideas, theories and speculation.  The only word of warning is we have to be careful we dont get caught up in personal criticism at the expense of progressive work.

****************************************************************

From Ric
Gear up or gear down?  Interesting question.  I think that you're absolutely right that we tend to look at such questions based on our own perceptions and experience.  Trying to view such decisions through the prism of historical context is difficult.  Here are my observations:

1.  The Electra was the first and only retractable AE ever flew.  Retractables were still the exception rather than the rule in 1937.  It was WWII that established the wisdom that, when in doubt, go in wheels up.

2.  Getting a bit lost and landing at other than her intended destination was nothing new to AE (Ireland 1932, Mexico 1935, etc.).  Off-airport landings were also de rigeur.  Her thinking may well have been, "Well damn.  Wrong island.  Okay, let's land this thing and figure out what's wrong with the radio, then we'll have the Itasca bring some fuel to us and we'll fly to Howland, top off, and continue the trip."

3.  Based upon what we see from the aerial photos and our experience on the ground, the reef flat tends to look better from the air than it really is.

4.  The decision to land wheels up would have been a big one for AE.  It would be a decision to admit final failure of her world flight aspirations, accept the certain loss of the airplane, and insure catastrophic personal financial loss.  The decision to not extend the undercarriage would have been nothing less than a decision to end her career.  It's as simple as that.

I'm with you regarding Mr. Strippel.  If we can get past the personal junk, I'm eager to hear and consider genuine critiques of our work.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:10:40 EDT
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      Re: Sextant/Octant

Jerry Ellis wrote:

>Wouldn't a scan from the horizon to the zenith be 90 degrees?

Yes it would.  But the name came from the amount of prism rotation; i.e. 45 deg. to do the intended job.   Perhaps it should have been called an 'Octo-Quad'.   RCS
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:27:02 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Customized mounts?

Ric:  You may not know of the customized mounts, but Art Kennedy, an associate of his in Monterey, CA, Kelly Johnson and many others with their paper trails can testify to that part of the fabrication of the flying laboratory.  Barb
**************************************************************

From Ric

I must assume that what you mean by "customized mounts" are the structural modifications to the center section detailed in Lockheed Engineering Drawings 41713, 41714, 44541 and 44542 which were approved by the Bureau of Air Commerce on May 19, 1937.  Those documents are now on file in the NASM archive special collections room.  We have copies.

The modifications involve some rather straightforward reinforcement of the landing gear attach points to accommodate the added weight and stress occasioned by the unusually high gross weight of the airplane.  The engine mounts aren't involved at all.  Any "paper trail" of other work would have to be in the BAC file.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:29:04 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: Noonan Myth

Ric:  That is exactly what I am saying.  Preponderence of evidence is  a great way to ferret out greatest likelyhoods.  Barb
*************************************************************

From Ric

Then we're in agreement.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:33:14 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Wiley to Strippel

Dick, You are so knowledgeable of the work of the AE authors.  After All you are one.  I had the pleasure of talking with Carrington and Knaggs by telephone in 1989.  I like the idea of having gone to the horse when talking about what has come from the horse's mouth.  Barb    You authors deserve lots of credit in this venue.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:36:51 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: exclusives

Dick:  Certainly not necessarily unethical, just rather ego-manic.  There were other reasons, perhaps, for the under wraps activities, for instances, Navy Personnel "guarding" the work at Oakland, the hush, hush at Pacific Motor Works in Burbank with A. Kennedy.  Many, many documented visits of Government officials visiting at Oakland, many eye-witness accounts of what appeared to be a very private operation in preparation for the final flight.  And, of course, AE and Putnam's personal secretary, Margo, making it clear that the money for the operation, was coming from the government. It is one thing going back over fifty - sixty years attempting to validate 1939, technology, records, etc. to find the smoking gun.  Why not take a close look at the lengthly persistent work done by individual since the 40's, gathering and documenting information about and from the people who had been involved.  Barb

****************************************************************

From Ric

Sounds like a conspiracy to me.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:39:24 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Ping pong balls (again)

Mike:  In Stand By To Die, Myers, there is a picture of the gentleman who worked at Lockheed during time of fabrication of AE's plane, he saw the pp balls and there was much talk about it in those daze.  Yes, Merrill, was the first.  It would be very interesting to find out just how many pp balls were place in the Electra 10-E and this info. can be found since it was part of the plan and there were at least four to ten Airplane mechanics and fabricators involved.  Time is running out, even those, (young, young men at time) are getting very old.  Barb
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:03:42 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Ping pong ball eyewitness

Ric, No he did not just say this 50 years after the fact.  I just met him at that time.  Let me suggest that you think about some memorable things that went on with you, and others that may have been involved in a memorable experience.  Just because you mention it many years later when someone spurs you thoughts, doesn't mean we can't believe you.  People's lives are a collection of experiences and events, this man was only part of something in which you and I share an interest, take heed.  Barb
**************************************************************

From Ric

Let's try this one more time because it's basic to the difference between TIGHAR's approach to solving the Earhart mystery and most of the other attempts of the past 61 years.

When I tell you a story about something that supposedly happened in the past, whether the past is yesterday or 50 years ago, you make a decision to believe me or not believe me based upon several factors including:

A.  How reliable you consider me to be.
B.  How normal or outlandish you consider the information to be.
C.  How important the information is to you.

If I tell you that I had a tuna sandwich for lunch yesterday, you will probably believe me because:

A:  You don't consider me to be a complete wacko (let's just make that assumption).
B.  A tuna sandwich is a normal sort of lunch.
C.  It probably makes no difference to you what I had for lunch yesterday.

However, if I told you that the tuna sandwich was served to me by Amelia Earhart who is now working as a waitress at a local diner, you might require something more than my eyewitness testimony before you accepted it as fact.

That's how we view all anecdotal accounts.  The ping pong ball story is totally undocumented and contrary to the volumes of documented information we have about the flight.  You may choose to believe it.  In the absence of some kind of documentation, I don't.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:10:06 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: Ric Bio & TIGHAR History

Ric, This is good.  I want to revere those who have had the true grit to study this subject and really believe you fall into the category of "devotee".

**************************************************************

From Ric

Thank you Barb, but I'll pass on being revered and ask that you consider me to be a professional rather than a devotee.  I get paid to do this.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:13:41 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: A talk with Harry Canaday

Ric, this is great stuff, now magnify it by hundreds and hundreds of personal stories and you will be amazed at the links to the "research stuff".  Barb

************************************************************

From Ric

The point of my talk with Canaday is that his recollections, like the hundreds and hundreds of stories you mention, are just stories (usually conflicting stories) without solid corroborating evidence.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:15:13 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: Truth

Jackie, keep this up, the personal, spiritual factors of the AE mystery may be the avenue to the truth.  Barb
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:50:41 EDT
From:         Tom King 
Subject:      Re: 1992 response-comedic relief

<<If you don't tell her, I will.>>

Maybe you'd better.  I blush.

KB
TK
**************************************************************
From Ric

Forum subscriber Barb Norris complimented Tom on the humor and wittiness of his postings and asked if he provided entertainment on the TIGHAR expeditions. Hence my threat and Tom's demurring blush.

I don't make idle threats.  In addition to being one of the country's leading archaeologists (they name awards after this guy), Dr. Tom King is the official songwriter laureate of the TIGHAR expeditions.  His hilarious parodies of popular tunes help defuse the inevitable tensions and remind us to take the work seriously, but not ourselves.  Here's an example from the 1989 expedition.

Less-than-optimal radio communication between teams on the island led to the phrase, "difficulty with the terrain" being received as "difficulty with the train" to which I replied, "It's not a train, you dummies!  It's a plane. We're looking for a plane!"  From then on we were (and still are) searching for Amelia's train.  Frustration mounted as artifact after artifact proved disappointing. Tom's response was the following gem entitled "Artifact Analysis" and sung to the tune of Chatanooga Choo Choo.

Pardon me, tin,
Are you a piece of Earhart's choo choo?
Or just a can,
Or something used in Loran?

Oh dear, Oh dear
I think I really made a boo boo.
You're just a bore.
I should have left you ashore.

We had been choppin' through Scaevola fields for day after day,
Fightin' sharks and Moray eels down under the waves.
Still we couldn't sight her,
Gettin' much uptighter.
Best thing we found yet was an old Ronson lighter.

Found some battered batteries down under the sea,
And a couple tools that date from prehistory.
Chunks of Norwich City (they weren't very pretty)
Nothing yet that qualifies as nitty-gritty

Then I found you.
I said, "Now there's a piece of choo choo!"
Good as they come.
It's made of a-lu-min-um.

But what's this I see?
A manufacture date of '63!
Oh, little piece of tin stuff,
I'm throwin' you in the sea.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:59:47 EDT
From:         Tom Cook
Subject:      "The Sound of WIngs" pictures

Interesting pictures in Mary Lovell's book.
#46, AE lying down, looks like Blucher - style oxfords to me,  same as page 26 TT V 12 ,#2/3.

Photo # 53 has 3 real Classics;  AE, a Cord  810 automobile, and the Electra! The  Brand New Electra is pictured at nearly the same angle as the Wreck Photo.  I measured the propeller from tip to hub and the diameter of the cowl opening (easier to see than the curved outer edge of the cowl) I came up with a ratio of 1.50 to 1 between prop, tip to hub center and cowl ring opening in wreck photo, TT  V 14#1  p15 and  a ratio of 1.52 for new ELectra in picture # 53. concidering that I was measuring magazine reproductions with a tape measure that reads in 32nds,I would consider that to be within a reasonable margin of error , not as precise as your measurement of an actual cowl, of course!

#59 shows Paul Mantz ,AE, Harry Manning, & FN.  Could this picture of FN be compared to Dr. Hoodless' mesurements of the skull found on Gardner?  This picture also shows what appears to be an antenna mast,
insulater, & wire under front of A/C, however this was before the first attempt!

#60 shows much of the instrument panel, but is undated!

#61 appears to show 2  antenna masts under belly of A/C, but again it is at beginning of first attempt.

#67 shows AE & FN Mr.& Mrs. Eric Chater prior to departure from Lae. AE's slender figure should dispel any rumor that she was pregnant! There is an antenna mast on top of the cabin and what appears to be part of the DF loop in the background.

#69 is a photomontage of newspaper head lines reporting the disappearance of AE & FN.  One paper, appears to be NY HERALD TRIBUNE  of about July 10 headline " 3 Earhart Search Planes Launched Off Colorado;  Weak Signals Buoy Hope."  subhead:  US Battleship reaches Phoenix Islands where 2 flyers are believed marooned on reef -Lexington speeds to widen search. TOO BAD SOMEONE DIDN'T PAY ENOUGH ATTENTION TO SEARCH GARDNER ON THE GROUND!!
TC  TIGHAR 2127
PS was there a TT V13 # 3 & 4 ?
*************************************************************

From Ric

No.  It was a lean year.

I've sent off ten photos to Jeff Glickman for consideration for the biometrics project.  What we need are full face and profile shots (like mug shots). The shot of Fred in Lovell's book is not quite a profile and we have nothing to use for scale.  I found a couple of other images that are better.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:07:51 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: Plethora of stories

Ric, the stories you've indicated came out of stories by others who had a vested interest.  Talk to some of the real men and women of those daze, hurry, they are dying off fast.  For instance, B. Goldwater,  he was seen and heard in the eary seventies making some revelationary comments about AE, souce one of our illustrious, astronauts, pretty credible stuff. I almost made it in to see B. Goldwater, 1997, October.  His personal secretary at the time took my three carefully worded questions and said she would talk with him.  I've not gotten back to her, plan to see if she ever did talk with him.  Too bad, I was on my way to meet him in 1989, after General Dolittle had given me his address in AZ.  Dolittle said, "He (referring to B. Golfdwater) was one of my best friends.  I have the upmost respect for him, beyond all others."  You mention a file "3 inches thick"  - try four four drawer filing cabinets, stuffed full.  From the generals, commandants of MC, hollywood actors to the GI Joe who had sold newspapers on the corner the day she disappeared (largest cash day of his life) who ends up in the Pacific becoming an innocent bystander in an AE event.

****************************************************************
From Ric

I guess we missed our chance to find out what Barry Goldwater learned from an astronaut about Amelia Earhart.

Does it strike you as just a little bit odd that, despite your four filing cabinets full of eyewitness accounts of "AE events", there is still not one document or photograph or artifact (unless you want to count Buddy Brennan's blindfold) to support them?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:12:55 EDT
From:          Barb Wiley
Subject:      Strippel request

Ric:  Merrill See very knowledgeable on subject email: mtsee@complink.net.

Dick:  Hi, what a place, huh?  Merrill's last known address on line: mtsee@complink.net  Barb  on line amelia@packlink.com

*************************************************************

From Ric

I'm not sure that Mr. See would like it here, but he's welcome if he wants to follow the protocols of the forum.  As we've said before, we're really not going to waste everybody's time debating conspiracy theories. There's too much work to do.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:15:03 EDT
From:          Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: Truth

To Tom King:  So well spoken, written, or beamed.  The process of stories fed from one ear to the next makes up our history.  Just as the "game" of gossip shows the original stories changing as moved from ear to ear, parts and pieces of the original somehow stay in tact.  Something like the making of the book.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:24:31 EDT
From:          Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: A talk with Harry Canaday

Theorist have it that Juan Trippe had been approached by Roosevelt to map a direct attack route to Japan four years prior to the war.  When the world flight came up, it was a natural to recruit AE and Fred was the best to map this route.  As former Commandant of the MC, later General said, "in those days it would have been unlikely that they were not used.... like Pete Ellis... any civilian with skills for service were asked to serve their country in those days."  Barb
**************************************************************

From Ric

Dick Strippel is right.  There are things that I don't want anybody to see. The CIA has asked me to suppress this kind of information.

I've posted this only as an example of the kind of post that I will, in the future, (to quote Amelia's illegitimate son Elvis ) "Return To Sender."
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:26:44 EDT
From:          Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: Strippel

To Jim (Tierney?)

Jim, this electronic communication does have it's down side - we can not pick up the humanity that would be part of a person to person conversation.  Overlook the caps, request Dick's very comprehensive bibliography (Rgstrippel@aol.com)  up to date on the printed material on the subject. Be prepared for a Rip Van Winkle's experience, since, to date, so much has been written, it would take a long time and honest dedication to the subject to become informed - this is truly the effort of Dick Strippel, he has done his homework and and cares so much to sometimes to shout to those of us who would just like to be led down a chosen path.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:29:23 EDT
From:          Barb Wiley
Subject:      Noonan Family

Jerry  The Gularte Family in California - near Gilroy was the family of Noonan's last wife.  There are collections of memorbilia still in the family, I think.  The person who has the most updated info. on Katherine and Noonan's two sons is Ann Pellegreno, Story City, Iowa - don't think she is on line.  She is an author of Iowa Takes To The Air, Vols 1 & 2.  Ann knows a lot, just like Dick Strippel.  Barb
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:32:55 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Sextant/Octant

>Wouldn't a scan from the horizon to the zenith be 90 degrees?
>
>*** Yes it would.  But the name came from the amount of prism rotation;
>i.e. 45 deg. to do the intended job...

You do get a 90 degree scan, horizon to zenith, with only 45 degrees of prism rotation.  As with the old nautical sextant, your line of sight swings through twice the angle you rotate the mirror.  I would presume the scale of the octant reads zero to 90 degrees (plus a little) although the prism rotates only 45 degrees (plus a little).
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:04:49 EDT
From:          Tet Walston
Subject:      Most likely ending

The last flight of AE and FN was a formula for disaster. Whilst I admired Amelia -- yes, I'm that old, all evidence seems to show that she was not a very good pilot.

Yes,she made a solo crossing of the Atlantic, and this showed her courage, but all she had to do was fly easterly, hope that the engine kept going, and a large land mass -- Britain or Europe would appear -- and it did!

Other indications of her skill are not always positive, on the African leg of the last flight, she was 165 miles north of intended track.

Neither she nor Noonan were accomplished in radio D/F, or indeed in proper radio communication. AE had little true skills in instrument flying, and who knows how far off course they were on their final dawn.

According to reports, they had a small reserve of fuel --too small.

Noonan was a good navigator they say, but Manning didn't think so.

The whole last leg of the flight was almost bound to fail, as evidence tells.  The almost impossible task of flying to, and finding, a small Island in a large ocean, low on fuel and without radio skills !!

The mind boggles.

My qualifications? A WW2 Royal Air Force pilot, also trained as navigator.

There is no wreckage, there is much more water than land.

Dream on!!
**************************************************************

From Ric

This, of course, is the classic crashed-at-sea argument.  Does it hold up? Let's take a look.

>..all evidence seems to show that she was not a
>very good pilot.

I would argue that you don't fly 2/3 of the way around the world in 1937 without being a very good pilot.

>Neither she nor Noonan were accomplished in radio D/F, or indeed in proper
>radio communication.

No argument here. [something got lost here, don't know what, sorry] ...ng were solid instrument flying and several other legs of the trip were through severe weather.  In any event, the point is irrelevant to the Lae/Howland leg.

>...who knows how far off course they were on their final dawn?

Earhart's position report over the Nukumanu Islands, the sighting of a "ship in sight ahead" at the halfway point, the reports of an airplane heard over Tabituea in the Gilberts, and the strength of the radio transmissions received by the Itasca are all excellent indicators that the flight proceeded very
close to its intended course.

>According to reports, they had a small reserve of fuel --too small.

On the contrary.  The available evidence indicates a planned 20 percent (almost 5 hours) reserve - standard for long distance flights at that time.

>Noonan was a good navigator they say, but Manning didn't think so.

I have no idea where that comes from.  I've never read such an allegation attributed to Manning.  Noonan's credentials as a navigator are well established.

In the opinion of the Bureau of Air Commerce which granted specific permission for the flight, the U.S. Coast Guard and U.S. Navy which agreed to provide logistical support,and in the opinion of Earhart's peers and contemporaries, there was nothing outrageous or foolhardy about the planned flight.  It now appears that the primary cause of the flight's failure was an accident on takeoff at Lae which deprived the aircraft of its ability to receive voice communications.  That neither AE nor FN had sufficient radio skills to overcome that difficulty is apparent.  The failure, therefore, was due to an insufficient margin of safety.

It's not possible to draw valid conclusions from bad facts.  I have yet to see an argument for the crashed-at sea scenario which accounts for the known facts of the case.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:51:34 EDT
From:         Amanda Dunham
Subject:      the last on ping pong balls

Hey Ric!  Remember how Robert Ballard managed to find the Titanic by looking for the debris field instead of the wreck itself?  Maybe on your next trip to Niku, you should forget looking for the plane and hunt down all those scattered ping pong balls...

Love to Mother,
Amanda

***************************************************************

From Ric

Hey, wait a minute.  No ping pong balls on Niku.  No ping pong balls seen floating at sea during the Navy's search.  Logical conclusion: the ping pong balls were captured with Amelia and taken to that Chinese prison camp (remember the mysterious Love to Mother telegram?).  AE came home after the war to become Irene Bolam, but the balls stayed behind, leading to the tremendous popularity of table tennis in China which finally became known to the world in the early '70s.  You just can't supress the truth.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:33:38 EDT
From:          Michael Strickland
Subject:      Re: Most likely ending


> It now appears that the primary cause of the flight's failure was an accident on
>takeoff at Lae which deprived the aircraft of its ability to receive voice
> communications.

Ric-Can you provide more on the above statement?  I've never heard this before; I have heard that the aircraft had trouble getting off the ground at Lae, but have not heard of any 'accident.'
Thanks,
Michael Strickland
****************************************************************
From Ric

Looking at the reports and logs of what was heard and what was not during the Lae/Howland flight, we noticed that there was no documented occasion when Earhart is known to have received a voice transmission.  Was her receiver busted?  Apparently not, because she was successful in hearing the letter As (dit dah, dit dah, dit dah...) sent by the Itasca at her request.  She was not able to take a bearing, probably because the frequency (7500 kc) was far too high, but she did say that she heard the signal.  What, we asked ourselves, did she do differently at that moment that permitted her to hear something? The logical answer was that, because she (for the first time in the flight) was preparing to take a radio bearing, she switched from her voice receiving antenna to her Df loop.  It seemed, therefore, to be a reasonable hypothesis that the problem was not in the receiver per se, but in the voice receiving antenna.

Next question: which antenna was the voice receiving antenna?  There was a V antenna which extended from a mast behind the cockpit to each vertical tail. The lead-in wire ran into the cabin just where her transmitter was mounted. This, we reasoned, was probably the transmitting antenna (duh).  There was also a wire antenna which ran along the belly supported by the starboard-side pitot mast on the "chin" of the airplane, through a mast near the main spar, to a final mast on the belly just forward of the cabin door.  The lead-in for this antenna entered the airplane just under the co-pilot's seat, which is where the receiver is known to have been mounted.  We, therefore, concluded that the belly wire was probably the voice receiving antenna.

Next question:  what can go wrong with an antenna?  It's not a terribly sophisticated device.  A connector can vibrate loose, or the thing can get knocked off.  We found it interesting to note that the antenna which seems to have failed was also the antenna which was most at risk to being knocked off. That aftmost mast sticking down from the belly only cleared the ground by about a foot or so when the airplane was lightly loaded and parked on
pavement.  With the airplane burdened with the heaviest load it had ever carried, and taxiing on the turf at Lae, the tip of the mast virtually brushed the grass - as shown in film of the Electra taxiing out for its final takeoff.  A forensic analysis of the takeoff sequence conducted for TIGHAR by Jeff Glickman at Photek revealed that while the aft antenna was clearly present when it taxied past the camera on its way to the end of the runway, when it came back by on the takeoff run, the antenna was no longer visible. Now you see it.  Now you don't.  What is visble on the film is an unexplained puff of something - probably dust - which erupts under the middle of the airplane fairly early in the takeoff run.

Here's what we think happened.  In turning around at the far end of the runway, the tip of the mast struck a hummock of ground or a tire went into a slight depression.  It wouldn't have taken much.  Any appreciable side load on the mast would be enough to snap it off, leaving the wire trailing the broken mast on the ground.  No impact would be felt in the cockpit of the heavily overloaded machine.

As the takeoff run began the broken mast bounced along until it snagged the ground, ripping the rest of the wire off the airplane and causing the puff of dust visible on the film.  Earhart and Noonan had no hint that they had
suffered a crippling radio failure until well into the flight and even then they had no way of knowing whether the problem was with them or with the people they were trying to talk to.

A caveat to this theory:  we can't prove that the antenna wasn't there just because we can't see it in the film.  (You can't prove a negative hypothesis.) However, as a theory it seems to hold together quite well.

As an aside, I was giving a talk to a group in Indiana several years ago (before we had analysed the film) and afterwards a gentleman came up to me and said. "I was in Lae, New Guinea during the war as a guest of Uncle Sam.  The old timers around there used to say that they weren't a bit surprised when Amelia Earhart got lost.  She left her trailing wire antenna laying on the runway when she left."

Well, it wasn't the trailing wire.  But I think I know what it was.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:55:38 EDT
From:          Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: Most likely ending

While there is much comment about the fact that AE did not have as many hours flying time as many of her contemporaries (certainly not flying twin engined aircraft), by the time she landed at Lae, New Guinea she was certainly a very seasoned pilot (in all sorts of weather & limited visability situations) & I might point out that up until that point Noonan's navigational skills had proved more that adequate to the task!

Until her plane or remains are discovered, there can be no final judgement rendered as to the reason for her failure to reach Howland Island, or if she crashed at sea or reached landfall. I for one, would speculate (as you have) that given any choice in the matter, AE would have opted for a "wheels down" landing on any possible landfall as opposed to a "belly" landing on water or land, given her propensity for always seeking out the more dangerous challenges throughout her career, as she never seemed to be a person for "playing it safe".   Also,
"wheels-up" would have negated any longterm radio communication.
Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:59:28 EDT
From:          Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: Noonan Family

Thanks for the lead on Pellegreno. As you've probably already noted by Forum comments, other members are currently in contact with Mary Bea's relations about their memorabilia.

Best regards, -jerry
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:36:21 EDT
From:          Craig Fuller
Subject:      More on ping pong balls

 OK Ric, quit being so hard. Lets find this mechanic and interview him, we might as well have this recorded in the files. Lets also see if we can track down any other mechanics. If they all say there were ping pong balls then there is some substance to the story, but still antidotal.

Barbara, please accept that until a purchase order signed by AE or such is found, or a spec by Lockheed calling for ping pong balls is found, the information is only antidotal! I think I can safely say that most of us on the forum like facts rather than antidotal hear say.

Craig Fuller
Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research
AAIR               
**************************************************************

From Ric

I'm glad you raise this issue because it brings up an important point that is often not appreciated.  In the course of any investigation as complex as this one, we're constantly presented with avenues of inquiry which invite exploration.  Our assets are always limited, so we have to chose carefully those avenues which seem most likely to produce results which will bring us closer to our ultimate goal.

The ping pong ball story is only one of hundreds of bizarre allegations surrounding the Earhart case which appear to be based soley on anecdote. Trying to substantiate anecdotes by gathering more anecdotes is what the
conspiracy crowd has been doing for decades - and look where it has gotten them.  If I was going to try to corroborate the ping pong ball story with useful evidence, I'd search out all of the available paperwork on the airplane to see if there is any mention of the balls.  We've already done that.  There isn't.  Then I'd check for mention of ping pong balls in the hundreds of contemporaneous news accounts describing Earhart's preparations and activities.  We've long-since covered that base.  Nothing there.

We have more than we can handle trying to follow the good leads we have.  If I seem hard on this it's because the money which makes the Earhart Project possible comes so very hard.  I have an obligation to the contributors to make sure that we spend it wisely.  Likewise, I have an obligation to TIGHAR volunteers not to waste their time.  On the other hand, if someone wants to go talk to the guy, by all means, go talk to him.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:58:21 EDT
From:          Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Gardner Search

Tom Cook wrote:

>TOO BAD SOMEONE DIDN`T PAY ENOUGH ATTENTION TO SEARCH GARDNER ON THE
>GROUND!!

I think the US navy did pay attention

3 planes (3 pilots & 3 observers) searched Gardner.

A review of the Lambrecht Report (available to any one who wants to see it from linvil@msn.com) clearly shows that careful observations were made during the course of the entire search.

There was no reason to search Gardner on the ground.

The search team saw nothing there.

The was no visible evidence to support that the plane had been there.
***************************************************************

From Ric

For once I find myself in agreement with the No Land Club*

One could be picky and say that the searchers should have checked the Sailing Directions for Gardner and seen that there should have been no "signs of recent habitiation."  But keep in mind that there were still six islands of the Phoenix Group waiting to be searched.  For all they knew, the Electra was parked on the beach on the next island, with AE and Fred about to expire from thirst or whatever.  Putting a party ashore at Gardner would have delayed the Navy's search of the other islands for at least 24 hours.  Under the circumstances, it's hard to fault the decision to press on.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:11:32 EDT
From:          Tom Ruprecht
Subject:      Voice Receiving Antenna

> "I was in Lae, New Guinea during the war as a guest of Uncle Sam.  The
> old timers around there used to say that they weren't a bit surprised when
> Amelia Earhart got lost.  She left her trailing wire antenna laying on the
> runway when she left."
>
> Well, it wasn't the trailing wire.  But I think I know what it was.

Couldn't this be an anecdote leading to a hypothesis that could be tested? Of course all those people might be deceased, but isn't it possible that one of them thought it might be a good souvenir and have handed it down to descendants who are unfamiliar with this forum but know of family stories about that piece of AEs plane in the attic?

Rupe

**************************************************************

From Ric

In theory, yes.  Now - how would you go about trying to find such a hypothetical person?  Is it worth a trip to Papua New Guinea to see if it's possible to find out who was at Lae in 1937?  Where would the money come from? And what if we got incredibly lucky and somebody produced a length of wire that they said was picked up on the runway that morning.  How could we possibly prove that it was indeed from NR16020?

I'm afraid that this is another example of a lead that is not economically feasible to follow up on.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:15:42 EDT
From:          Dean Alexander
Subject:      Equine anatomy 101

Barbara Wiley wrote:
 
> Dick, You are so knowledgeable of the work of the AE authors.  After All,
> you are one.  I had the pleasure of talking with Carrington and Knaggs by
> telephone in 1989.  I like the idea of having gone to the horse when
> talking about what has come from the horse's mouth.  Barb    You authors
> deserve lots of credit in this venue.

Just let's all make sure we know the difference between the horse's mouth and the other end !  Dean A.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:28:33 EDT
From:          Ron Dawson
Subject:      Hull Island sequence?

Answer from The Discovery Channel:

"Thank you for contacting Viewer Relations.  We appreciate your interest in
our programming.  The Search for Amelia Earhart is scheduled to air again
on July 7 at 10:00PM (ET/PT) on Discovery Channel.  It is not available on
video for purchase.  Unfortunately, this is the only information we have
about this program.  If you have further questions, please call us toll
free at 1-888-404-5969 Monday-Friday 8:00AM-6:00PM (ET) and we will gladly
help you.  Thanks again for writing.

Sincerely,
Viewer Relations"

I've seen this before and don't remember the Hull Island flight sequence--there may be two different programs.

Ron D. 2126
***************************************************************
From Ric

The Search for Amelia Earhart is the show they did about our 1997 trip.  I don't remember any Hull Island sequence either, but I have the show on tape. I'll check it out.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 08:42:21 EDT
From:          Frank Kuhre
Subject:      ping pong documents?

Ric, as I told you in an earlier comment, while researching the data available to me during the building of the Finch Electra,I recall something in print regarding the ping pong balls!

As you know Linda probably will not be very co-operative in allowing any research of the data she has, but it may be worth a try. (she might be looking for some more media attention!)

I only bring this to you as, I remember the reference being something factual. Not to say that I remember it being in Amelia's aircraft, but that it was being considered and tested and actually say drawings ( or photos of the balls in the wing.)

I am only interested in the facts, but it was my impression that's what this forum was for, discussion and exhaustive research of all available resources to find out what happened.
                                                   Frank K

**************************************************************

From Ric

Interesting.  If ping pong balls were, at some point, considered and some test balls put in a wing, that could be the start of the stories.

I've never had any luck even getting Ms. Finch to acknowledge a letter. Anybody got any ideas how we could follow up on this?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 08:43:38 EDT
From:          Don Neumann
Subject:      Swirling seabirds

You are right, I think they identified the wrong  program in the first message they sent to me, as they don't i.d. any particular program in the second message they sent.   I'm going to try callig the "888"
number & see if I can speak with someone there who knows what they are doing!  I can't imagine they don't keep some record of who produces the programs they air, or can at  least identify the name of the segments that are broadcast. (I know I saw those "swirling" sea birds on that
film clip!!!)
Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 08:45:26 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Reef/Beach landing

Ric wrote:

> Also, the kind of damage to be expected from a ground-loop/cart-wheel
> accident would include impact damage to the nose that we don't see in the
> wreck photo.

I was visualizing an almost, but not quite, successful beach landing... less drastic than the above but with severe damage.  But not an end-over-end sort of thing.

Whether landing on the reef or on the beach, how do you loose a wing and tear one engine from its mounting, but avoid smashing up the nose of the airplane?  The wing and the engine end up on the reef.  I'm wondering just what it would take to tear the engine from its mounting.  And how do you get the rest of the airplane into the bush, on its wheel(s) with the other engine and propeller intact?  The wind blew it there from the reef and it just happened to end up on its wheels?

Maybe we're trying to put together pieces that were not part of the same whole to start with.  The answer to that will have to wait until you dig up that engine on Canton and find what's left of the airplane on Niku!
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 08:52:43 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Canton engine excavation

I hope efforts to get a backhoe for the tractor on Canton are meeting with some success.  I still wonder about the possibility of working out something with someone not terribly far from Canton.  A contract arrangement or some such.

I remember that you found no equipment rental outfits in the Canton Yellow Pages! May there be someone you could do business with on Fiji?  Someone with equipment and the means to get it to Canton and do the digging for you.

Is there still a phosphate mining operation on Nauru?  Mining implies earth moving equipment and the means to move heavy stuff to and from the island. Maybe whoever runs the operation could be persuaded to lend some assistance to such a worthy cause.

There may be other possibilities even closer to Canton that I know nothing about. Or people who might be more cooperative.

I presume a major problem is the lack of contacts to ferret out possible sources of help in the south pacific.  Are there any TIGHAR people in the area?

***************************************************************

From Ric

Actually, it's not a problem of lack of contacts.  There are plenty of backhoes scattered about the Pacific and we could probably even find somebody who would lend us one (or rent it to us at a good price).  The problem is the sheer vastness of the Pacific and the remoteness of Kanton.  That translates
into immense cost in transporting anything there.

But fear not.  We're pursuing another avenue of potential help and are having some preliminary success.  It would not be prudent for me to say more at the moment, but I'll provide details when I can.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 08:57:09 EDT
From:          Tom Robison
Subject:      maps

I'm a new subscriber to this mailing list and, alas, not yet a TIGHAR member.

In reading and studying all the terrific articles on TIGHAR's web pages, I find I'm frantic for a good map of Nikumaroro Island, one showing the geographical locations mentioned in the articles (the lagoon, the village, etc).

Is such a map posted somewhere on the web?

Thanks,
Tom
**************************************************************
From Ric

Not yet, but with the latest issue of TIGHAR Tracks we mailed an 11 x 17 pull-out map of the island with all the locations where stuff has been found or reported seen.

If you'll send in your membership we'll get one to you asap.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:24:32 EDT
From:          Barb Norris
Subject:      Re: ping pong documents?

Has anyone ever contacted a ping pong ball company to see if they are aware of the theory?  Perhaps somewhere deep in their company archives is some info about ping pong balls and airplnes.

Also wondered if anyone else, say a non-TIGHAR rep, has attempted to contact the quiet Ms. Finch about this.  (Maybe she's just not fond of wild animals).

Regards,
Barbara Norris
**************************************************************

From Ric

Randomly phoning ping pong ball manufacturers and asking them to dig into the company files for any record of a sale to Amelia Earhart doesn't sound like a terribly efficient expenditure of research resources.

The problem with Finch is not particulary TIGHAR-related.  She has an apparently  well-earned reputation for treated everyone badly.  Pratt & Whitney dropped five million bucks to recreate Amelia Earhart.  What they seem to have gotten is Leona Helmsley in a leather jacket.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:33:23 EDT
From:          Ronnie
Subject:      Attack routes and fuel supplies

Direct attack route to Japan???  From the South Pacific?? For who or what?? In 1936-8 we had an army the size of a glorified police force and a navy of obsolete battleships from the 1920's. Does this mean no one in the US military could find Japan?? good grief... Roosevelt was not nearly as worried about the Japanese then as he was about the Republicans. A nice Iowa girl may have been better used spying on the real enemy around her home town.

Maybe the Glibertese were contemplating an annexation of Mt Fuji and needed a "best catamaran route" mapped out from Howland...

After reading forum postings for a couple of months and trying to get familiar with the circumstances of the disappearance I have a question for the "crashed at sea" crowd that needs to be answered to my satisfaction.  I keep coming back to the fuel.  If the fuel situation is as Ric describes then Amelia and
Fred had five hours to fly an LOP and find land that they were well aware was on that line.  Since they could fix the LOP accurately why would they not find any of the islands on this line within the five hours they had to find.  Also why do those who maintain the crashed at sea theory (that's all it will ever be) get so apoplectic when others say that just maybe they found a spot of land.  After all the description of a lot of water and little land is applicable to Mother Earth in general.

What were ping pong balls made out of in the 1930's, and can DNA testing aid in identifying them?

***************************************************************

From Ric

The question of fuel is central to all of the theories.  The crashed-and-sank crowd does not accept our assesment and is quite sure that she ran out of fuel near Howland.

Dick Strippel's treatise on the fuel (he says she had only 950 gallons) is an example of a conflicting viewpoint on that issue.  Several forum members have requested copies, which I have, of course, provided.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:53:06 EDT
From:          Frank Kuhre
Subject:      Getting to Finch

Barbara,
It might be worth a try from another of the same gender.  She seems to be a I am woman hear me roar type.

She also is only in it for what it will get her, so give it a try on that slant, but I know she won't talk to me  (she owes me money) she beat me out of around $10,000 in overtime
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:02:42 EDT
From:          Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Attack routes to Japan

From the historical perspective, the U.S. was already QUITE aware of the proximity of routes to Japan, if we were so inclined, as evidenced by the political/military beating General Billy Mitchell took in the 1920's for even suggesting the vulnerability of Pearl Harbor from the Japanese vantage point. Though demoted and disgraced, he was vindicated by time (and his rank was posthumously restored, though HE never knew it), since the only ones who heeded his words in fact, were the Japanese. Certainly our government, which had spent lots of time arguing the case against Mitchell, knew the possibilities, and wouldn't have wasted an American icon such as Amelia Earhart on this issue. I agree with Ric on this point entirely. By the way, I believe it was Gary Cooper who played Mitchell in the movie about his life.--Best regards to
all,--Gene Dangelo :)
***************************************************************

From Ric

I'll just add that our opinion that Earhart was not involved in any covert government mission is not based upon any assessment of what the Roosevelt administration would or wouldn't do.  It's based upon the complete lack of evidence that any such relationship existed and the abundance of evidence which suggests that it did not.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:07:00 EDT
From:          Merrill See
Subject:      Ping Pong Duty

Ping pong balls?  How do you suppose they got them past so many customs agents?

Merrill T. See

***************************************************************

From Ric

Good point.  I also wonder what happens when you take a ping pong ball to 12,000 feet in an unpressurized airplane?  I know what happens to a bag of potato chips.  POW!
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:26:06 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Perpetual Ping Pong Balls

Ric wrote:

>I've never had any luck even getting Ms. Finch to acknowledge a letter.
>Anybody got any ideas how we could follow up on this?

Looking for an angle...  Does anyone know what Finch is up to presently? What's she into that might suggest an angle of approach?

What were ping-pong balls made of in 1937?  Interesting question.  Did they even exist at that time??  Evident how much I'm into games involving balls of any sort!
***************************************************************

From Ric

Once more, I will restain myself in commenting on this subject.

Yes.  Ping pong balls existed in 1937.  The 1936 Dick Merrill/Harry Richman transatlantic flight actually did use 50,000 ping pong balls to insure flotation of their single-engine Vultee in the event of a ditching.  I don't know what their balls were made of.  But I could guess.

Best place to find Ms. Finch these days might be down at the courthouse.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:28:01 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Ping-Pong: Some answers

A little effort answered my questions about ping-pong balls in 1937.  The game was, in fact, going strong well before that date.  The balls were made of celluloid which was the earliest thermoplastic on the scene (patent 1869).

How to get Linda Finch interested in cooperating a little remains an open question.

***************************************************************

From Ric

That's our Vern.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:34:26 EDT
From:          Ron Dawson
Subject:      Juarez adventures

Regarding Fred's divorce papers: After several weeks of frustrating attempts to pry information out of Juarez city officials at various levels, I was leaving the Palacio Municipal somewhat dejectedly, when I got the Spanish equivalent of "pssst - buddy, over here" (like a scene out of a bad movie). I did go talk to this character and in a nutshell, he indicated my problem was I had not applied "mordida" to the situation. In my naivete, I had assumed the "mordida" was no longer necessary in the age of NAFTA, etc.  Wrong. This guy offered to take me to where old records were kept, for a price. Well, my loyalty to TIGHAR didn't include getting in an ancient Ford with a disreputable looking character and going God knows where in a foreign city now approaching a million people where crime is epidemic. However, with a little mordida, I did get a location out of him. Then, I was able to confirm that through an acquaintance who was born there and goes over shopping often. This repository   supposedly has records back to 1932. We will go on Wednesday, the 10th and see what we come up with. Worst case scenario: the file will be missing or will contain only a decree with no other info. Hoped for scenario: confirmation of birthdate, listing of possible children, sample of signature or handwriting. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Ron 2126

****************************************************************
From Ric

Holy Guacamole!  Be careful Ron.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:04:03 EDT
From:          Ronnie
Subject:      The Fuel Question

I have gotten replies indicating three different quantities of fuel (from three different people). No matter if the measurements are in gallons, liters, cups, or benedictine bottles the real question is what range does the fuel carried give the aircraft.  There must be some indication of an official nature, and not merely anecdotal or best guess, as to the capacity of the aircraft.  I know that the folks posting these figures have done a lot more research than me but I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind would leave on a long flight over water at night knowing that they had 30 minutes to live if they blinked and missed the island.  Based on the state of direction finding procedures in that era it would likely take that long just to get a bearing if you were within close proximity. My lack of suicidal tendencies would cause me to demand that every drop of fuel that could be carried would be on board. Then I'd add another 50 gallons.  I also recall from one of the postings that Ric asserted that the transmission attributed to AE that she had 30 minutes of fuel left is legend. Who would map out a leg knowing the range of the aircraft that would allow such a small margin for safety??  I assume these folks were not absolute idiots.  The fact that some allege that AE was not a good pilot does not work in favor of "lost at sea".  The people who knew best how good a pilot she was were in the cockpit.  If I often miss by 150 miles or more then why would I take off with a safety factor of less than 100.  Heck, I'd carry enough fuel to turn around and come back (and a long string to boot). Dunno guys?? You're saying that that flight was made by an incompetent pilot, guided by a drunk navigator, and mapped out by a damn fool. It's would be surprising if this crew could crash into the ocean successfully without hitting land purely by accident.  Maybe these conditions support the Niku scenario after all.

**************************************************************

From Ric

I love it.  I'll write up the fuel situation as I see it as a separate posting.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:13:07 EDT
From:          Don Neumann
Subject:      more about balls

Even if ping-pong balls were aboard, they obviously didn't keep the plane afloat (assuming in the first place that they landed in the water & if they made landfall, they really don't make very good eating!) long
enough for them to be sighted & rescued.

Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:15:08 EDT
From:         Clyde Miller
Subject:      Re: Juarez adventures

I'm telling you. This made for TV movie is turning into a miniseries.

***************************************************************
From Ric

We're holding out for Spielberg.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:00:49 EDT
From:          Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Ric's treatise on fuel

The question of how much fuel the Earhart Electra could carry, and how much it, in fact, was carrying when it left left Lae, New Guinea is central to any debate about the aircraft's fate.  It all comes down to how much fuel (how much time) was available to Earhart and Noonan at 0843 local time when the last message received by the Itasca was heard.

The crashed-and-sank advocates need the airplane to run out of gas right then and there. The conspiracy crowd needs the airplane to have vast reserves of gas (at least another 6 hours) which enable it to reach the Marshall Islands and fall into Japanese hands.  Those of us who favor the Gardner Island theory need for the plane to have at least 2, and preferably 3, more hours of fuel (enough to reach the island, land, and run an engine to recharge batteries one in a while) but not a lot more than that (not enough to fly to Gardner and then backtrack to Howland).

Of course, what capability any of us want or need the airplane to have is irrelevant to the question of what capability it did have.  To answer that question we have to look at the historical record and see what information is available.  I have written a paper on that subject which is too long to post as an email, but I'll be happy to forward it as an attached file to anyone who requests it.  Just drop me an email at TIGHAR1@aol.com.  I'll also mount it on our website as part of a major update we'll be doing in the next week or so.

For the less passionate, I've excerpted the meatier portions of the paper below.

THE FUEL CAPACITY OF THE EARHART AIRCRAFT AND THE FUEL ABOARD AT TAKEOFF ON JULY 2, 1937 (excerpts)

FUEL CAPACITY
Before we attempt to determine how much fuel was probably aboard at takeoff, let's be sure that we know how much gasoline the airplane could carry. ...An inspection report and license application, complete with fuel system sketch, dated November 27, 1936, shows 12 tanks now installed, broken down as follows: 6 wing 102-102-81-81-16-16 and 6 fuselage 118-118-149-149-149 for a total of 1,151 gallons.  The next and last time the airplane was inspected by the BAC (Bureau of Air Commerce) was on May 19, 1937 when it came out of the Lockheed repair shop prior to the start of the second world flight attempt. The report of that date verifies the same tank set-up and the 1,151 total fuel capacity. ... To the extent that we can be sure about anything regarding historical events, we can be quite sure that the airplane's fuel capacity on July 2, 1937 was 1,151 U.S. gallons.

FUEL ABOARD AT TAKEOFF, JULY 2, 1937
Most of the debate about the actual fuel load at takeoff from Lae has been carried out without benefit of the most detailed, contemporaneous, and credible primary source of information on this point.  That's because the
source, an eight page report written by Guinea Airways manager Eric H.Chater (Earhart's host in Lae), was lost until 1991. Prior to its discovery, the best source was a letter written by  District Superintendent of Civil Aviation James Collopy, who says the airplane carried 1,100 U.S. gallons.  (Some Austalian press reports, however, quote Noonan as saying that the airplane carried 950 gallons.)  ...

On the subject of fuel, Chater says (page 5):

"July 1st - - after the machine was tested the Vacuum Oil Co.'s representatives filled all tanks in the machine with 87 octane fuel with the exception of one 81 gallon tank which already contained 100 octane for taking off purposes.  This tank was approximately half full and it can be safely estimated that on leaving Lae the tank contained at least 40 gallons of 100 octane fuel - (100 octane fuel is not available in Lae).  A total of 654 imperial gallons was filled into the tanks of the Lockheed after the test flight was completed.  This would indicate that 1,100 US gallons was carried by the machine when it took off for Howland Island."

That's about as straightforward a statement as anyone could hope for.  Chater and Collopy, the only aviation professionals on the scene who submitted reports, agree on the total fuel aboard - 1,100 US gallons - but disagree over whether the tank that was half full of 100 octane had a capacity of 100 gallons (Collopy) or 81 gallons (Chater).  Because there was no 100 gallon tank aboard the airplane but there were two 81 gallon tanks, Chater would seem to be the more credible source on this point.

So what are we to make of the Australian press's claim that Noonan said the airplane carried "950 gallons of petrol - sufficient to give a still-air cruising range of 2,750 miles."?  The story does not specify U.S. or Imperial gallons, nor does it specify statute versus nautical miles.  Because the information was intended for an Australian audience, it might not be unreasonable to assume that Noonan gave the figure in Imperial gallons.  But 950 Imperial gallons is 1,141 U.S. gallons, which doesn't correspond to any other report.  However, 915 Imperial gallons is 1,100 U.S. gallons.  Using the fuel consumption tables worked out for Earhart by Lockheed's Kelly Johnson, 1,100 U.S. gallons (915 Imperial) would yield a range of 2,750 nm.  It seems likely, therefore, that the apparent discrepancy of Noonan versus Chater, and Collopy is nothing more than an American/Australian language barrier across which the Aussie reporter heard Fred's 915 as 950.

Some researchers whose hypotheses require that the airplane run out of fuel shortly after the last transmission heard from Earhart (08:43 on July 2, Howland time) have presented elaborate computations which allege to show that the airplane could not have left the ground with more than 950 U.S. gallons aboard.  Such computations are attempts to do hard science using soft data. We don't really know the airplane's take off weight, we don't really know the density altitude for Lae that morning, and despite the recollections of eyewitnesses decades later, the film of the take off shows not a calm wind condition but clear indications of at least some wind down the runway.  It is also true that any professional pilot (myself included) who has worked in a just-get-the-job-done environment can relate tales of successful overgross take-offs which, according to the book, should have ended in the trees.

In the Earhart case, we have two aviation professionals on the scene (Collopy and Chater) who make independent contemporaneous reports which agree on the amount of fuel carried aboard the airplane.  The only contradictory evidence is a press account for which a plausible explanation seems apparent.  Further evidence for the accuracy of the 1,100 U.S. gallon figure comes from the fuel consumption tables prepared especially for Earhart by Lockheed engineer "Kelly" Johnson.  According to Johnson's figures, 1,100 gallons should yield roughly 24 hours of endurance.  Because the Lae/Howland flight was anticipated to take 18 to 19 hours, this would provide the 20% (five hour) fuel reserve considered standard for long-distance flights at that time. Lieutenant Daniel Cooper, aboard the Itasca as the U.S. Army Air Corps representative, made specific mention of that standard in his report dated July 27, 1937.

At 0843 local time, the flight was 20 hours and 13 minutes into its theoretical 24 hour maximum endurance with three hours and forty-seven minutes of fuel remaining - not because that's how much fuel TIGHAR would prefer the airplane to have, but because that's how much fuel the historical record says it should have had.

Many mysteries remain in the Earhart enigma, but the airplane's fuel capacity, it's fuel load at takeoff from Lae, and its expected endurance are not among them.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:07:21 EDT
From:          Peter Ifland
Subject:      Sextant Answers

In answer to the question "Why would a navigator ever want to use an inverting telescope?"  I would say:

Inverting telescopes have two advantages over erect telescopes - the image is brighter and the eyepiece can be fitted with cross-wires to aid in aligning the sight.   The inverting telescope would be used for star sights at dawn or at dusk for ease in picking out a faint star or in visualizing the dim horizon.  The inverting telescope also is useful for taking noon sights when the sun is high in the sky and dark filters must be used to cut down on the brightness of the sun without obscuring the horizon.  It takes a lot of practice for a navigator to feel comfortable taking sights with an inverting telescope.
 ______________

Why use a sextant when an octant can measure angles up to 90 degrees?

The first doubly reflecting instruments, invented in the early 1730's, were octants.  "Doubly reflecting" means that the image of the celestial body is reflected twice - first by the rotatable index mirror and then by the silvered portion of the fixed horizon mirror and then into the observer's eye.  In this optical arrangement, the reflected image moves through twice the angle that the index mirror is rotated.   Thus, an octant with an arc an eighth of a circle (45 degrees) can measure angles up to 90 degrees. Similarly, a sextant with an are of a sixth of a circle (60 degrees) can measure angles up to 120 degrees.

So, why would anybody need to measure angles greater than 90 degrees as with an octant ?  Why do we need a sextant to measure angles greater than 90 degrees when the angle from the horizon to the zenith, the point in the sky directly overhead, is only 90 degrees?

Finding longitude at sea depends on knowing time accurately.  Sufficiently accurate sea-going chronometers to tell time had not yet been perfected. The technique in common use was called "lunar distances" and involved measuring the angle between the moon and the sun, a planet or a fixed star.  Frequently, the angle to be measured was greater than 90 degrees.  The Royal Navy officer who conducted the very first sea trials with the newly invented octant observed that the capability to measure larger angles would be useful.  A sextant was quickly produced.   In fact, quintants, a fifth of a circle to measure angles up to 144 degrees, and quadrants, a fourth of a circle to measure angles up to 180 degrees, were produced in limited numbers.

Why has the sextant been the instrument of choice for so long?  The lunar distances technique was used to check chronometers for accuracy well into the twentieth century and was finally displaced only when telegraphic and radio time signals became available.  Even then, sextants were used to measure large horizontal angles sometimes needed for surveying and chart making.  Only very recently, the US Navy concluded that octants were big enough and sextants were not required for sea-going navigation.  Most W.W.II and later aircraft sextants actually were octants although they frequently were erroneously called sextants.

Hope that helps.  Peter
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:16:14 EDT
From:          A Stewart
Subject:      Fame & Fortune

Ric wrote:

>We're holding out for Spielberg.

Off topic and, I know, not getting the irony, but Spielberg is prepping a movie on Lindbergh, for himself to direct, based on the new biography due out soon.

A Stewart
***************************************************************
From Ric

Hmmmm.  Spielberg does Lindbergh film.  Lindbergh film is big success. Spielberg gets message that films about aviation heroes sell big.  'Bout that time we're wrapping the project with a spectacular find.   Phone rings.
"TIGHAR.  Ric Gillespie." "Hello, Ric?  This is Steve Spielberg. ...." Alarm goes off and I wake up.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:35:55 EDT
From:          George Mershon
Subject:      fuel reserves

Please keep up the good work.

At flight school (1998) we were taught to calculate the necessary fuel using the manufacture's specs and add 20%.  In theory, this would get us there on time, safe and sound, and yet not delay the time of arrival because of excess weight.  I don't know the 1930's theory.

George Mershon
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:57:59 EDT
From:          Tom Robison
Subject:      fuel usage

Ronnie wrote:

>...what range does the fuel
>carried give the aircraft.  There must be some indication of an official
>nature, and not merely anecdotal or best guess, as to the capacity of the
>aircraft.  I know that the folks posting these figures have done a lot more
>research than me but I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind
>would leave on a long flight over water at night knowing that they had 30
>minutes to live if they blinked and missed the island.

[first a disclaimer: 1) I'm new to this list and not up to speed on what recent discussions have been, so forgive me if I repeat an old thread; 2) I'm not a pilot, nor do I play one on TV, so if I make dumb generalizations about flying, forgive a poor landlubber; 3) I'm not a member of the "crashed and sank" club.]

Some wags claim that Amelia used more fuel than she thought she would due to strong head winds. How do they know that? If they know the winds were stronger than normal, then they must know exactly what the winds were, therefore it should be possible to compute a nearly EXACT determination of her fuel consumption. Merely stating that she encountered head winds, as some "historians" have done, proves nothing.

Do we know what Amelia's "habits" were regarding fuel management? Did she fully understand what throttle and prop settings gave the best endurance? I would have thought, by this stage in her journey, that she would have had some idea of what settings provide the best range, and knew that these settings were critical on the Lae-Howland leg.

My bottom line is this: Even if Amelia wasn't the best pilot, she wasn't stupid, either, and by this stage she had garnered enough experience to understand what was required to get from Lae to Howland. I agree with Rich. No sensible person would have cut her margins of safety so close.

Tom
**************************************************************
From Ric

Of course, nobody knows or can know exactly what winds were encountered during the flight.  What we do know is that the flight reached the vicinity of Howland Island pretty much on schedule, which argues for winds that were not a big factor either way.  To suggest that AE experienced strong headwinds and arrived at Howland on schedule by carrying ineffeciently high power settings is to suggest that she was virtually suicidal.

By means of test flights in the airplane in early 1937, a max-endurance power management profile was worked out specifically for Earhart's Electra by Lockheed's legendary engineer Kelly Johnson.  Those numbers are a matter of public record.  We used them to predict the airplanes endurance with the known 1,100 U.S. gallon fuel load.  I can't imagine why Amelia, with her life at stake, would not also use them.  Also, as you point out, she had had many, many hours to fine-tune the procedure to get the best possible range out of the airplane.  Let's remember.  This woman was one of the most successful long-distance aviators of her time.  To suggest that she managed her fuel like a rank amateur on what she knew was the most dangerous flight of her career just doesn't make any sense.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:04:01 EDT
From:          Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: more about balls

Don Neumann wrote:

>even if ping-pong balls were aboard, they obviously didn't keep the
>plane afloat (assuming in the first place that they landed in the water
>& if they made landfall, they really don't make very good eating!) long
>enough for them to be sighted & rescued.

If there had been a large number of ping-pong balls aboard, wouldn't some of them still exist? Wouldn't some of the former residents of Nikumaroro have mentioned seeing funny little white balls laying, or floating around? (Or did the Coconut crabs adopt them as their own?) Seems to me like the fella who flew over the island on (what day was it? the 3rd of July?) would have seen little white spots all over the place, if indeed there were ping-pong balls on the plane.

Tom

*************************************************************

From Ric

The Navy overflight was on the 9th.  If it were to be proven that the airplane's wings were full of ping pong balls, the absence of ping pong balls on Niku (or floating around on the ocean for that matter) would be an indication that the airplane, or at least its wings, remained intact.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:12:38 EDT
From:          Ronnie
Subject:      Re: Ric's Fuel treatise

Ric,

Thanks for the breakdown on the fuel.  A 20% margin does seem prudent for a flight of that length, especially if there were some other landing sites within the "range probable error".

Though I don't have all of the calculations and data that some seem to have compiled I tend to distrust pure mathematical data in issues of this sort, since this type of data must assume "facts" that may not be facts at all. Aviation was far from pure science in 1937, or even today.  It's pertinent to remember that these were two human beings in the cockpit, not a couple of crash dummies.  They would have been very humanly aware of all of the condittions and potential risks of the flight and had been prudent enough in the past to get all the way to the South Pacific in the airplane.  They were the number one experts in the world at that time of a few subjects important to any investigation of the flight.  First, how good a pilot Amelia was. Second, how good a navigator Fred was.  Third, the exact distance that that plane could fly with a particular amount of fuel.  They had flown the plane a goodly part of the way around the world.  Miles per gallon would have been pretty well known to them by that time.  Others may make mistakes regarding Imperial or US gallons but they wouldn't.  They had to know how far they could fly... and how little time would be left... carrying only 950 gallons.  The idea that they needed to be lighter for takeoff is not compelling.  Why not take 800 gallons and make taking off a breeze (no pun intended).  They may have saved enough weight to carry water wings. I am assuming a few things too.  First, that they both had a healthy respect for their lives.  This is fairly usual in humans, even in daredevil humans (remember Evel's parachute).  Second, they were both relatively knowlegeable about their jobs as pilot and navigator.  Third, that they were in full possession of their faculties.  If all three of these are valid then leaving Lae with 950 US gals of fuel is a non-starter.  Without doing any fancy calculations simply draw a line in scale representing the length of the flight and then draw the circle representing the maximum range left for error. Better yet, do it in the dark. Don't worry about taking off,  just pray the plane doesn't get airborne.

The Japanese angle may work after all if they took off under these conditions. Are there any pictures before takeoff of AE and Fred in white headress drinking a ceremonial cup of sake. None of this proves they did not crash at sea, simply that the logic behind some of the assertions that they undoubtedly did give AE and Fred little credit in the area of intelligence, or maybe even plain common sense.

So much for fuel... to follow some of the other more interesting threads...

Any chance they had a ping pong table on board also?  The presence on an old table and paddles on Niku could be proof positive in this case.

No-one cares about Linda Finch.  She didn't get lost, Pratt and Whitney only wishes she had.

Relative to Ric's reply about the lack of evidence being more pertinent than the intentions of the Roosevelt administration -  lack of evidence has never been germane to a political investigation in search of truth.

-ronnie-
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:31:34 EDT
From:          Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: Fuel usage

Seems I recall that during WWII that Lockheed sent Chas Lindbergh to the Pacific theatre to instruct Army Air Corp pilots on the art of fuel conservation while flying Lockheed's P-38 "Lightning" aircraft.   So it would seem that "stretching" fuel capacity was an integral part of Lockheed's program (thanks in large measure to Kelly Johnson's incredible quest for perfection in all aspects of his work in the design & development of his aircraft) & I also recall that fuel conservation by P-38 pilots during their Yamamoto mission, played a very significant role in their ability to reach their target & return safely.

Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:38:45 EDT
From:          Don Neumann
Subject:      Engine condition

Should we also consider factoring-in that  those engines had flown over three quarters of the way around the earth, under some pretty extreme conditions, with relatively primitive maintenance performed by a variety of hands in some of the locations where they landed; so it would seem to me they may not have been performing entirely up to specs by takeoff time from Lae, which might lead to some variation in fuel consumption from the norm that might otherwise have been expected from the same engines, operated under more favorable conditions?
Don Neumann

**************************************************************

From Ric

Good point, Don.  Fortunately, we have quite a bit of information about the maintenance performed on the airplane prior to the Lae/Howland flight.  On the way down to Australia and New Guinea, AE spent several days in Bandoeng, Java having work done.  She actually made one false start and returned to Java for more work.  When she reached Lae she had the advantage of the fact that her host, Guinea Airways, used Lockheed 10s and were familiar with the airplane. The Gen'l Manager, Eric Chater, included in his July 25, 1937 report a lengthy description of work performed in Lae according to his Chief Engineer, E. Finn. Among the tasks performed was the installation of a new cartridge in the Cambidge Exhaust Gas Analyzer (vital to setting proper mixture), and a new fuel pump for the starboard engine.

Although there's no question that the engines had been run almost daily for the preceding month, that's what they're designed to do. They still had less than 400 hours total time and had been extensively examined after the Luke Field wreck (at the 182 hour point).  It's clear that Earhart was paying lots of attention to those engines and that the quality of available maintenance was high.  We have no reason to suspect that they weren't performing normally at the time of the disappearance.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:52:47 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Ping pong experiments

Ric wrote:

>Good point.  I also wonder what happens when you take a ping pong ball to
>12,000 feet in an unpressurized airplane?  I know what happens to a bag of
>potato chips.  POW!

They might take it.  A sphere is an ideal geometry to hold pressure and there isn't much area for the pressure to act on, as compared to a bag of potato chips.

The ping-pong balls are not a bad idea for floatation.  The idea may well have been considered and some experimentation done.  But I think the idea would ultimately have been discarded due to weight considerations.  If any of the stories about small things AE elected to leave behind are true, she was obsessed with weight.  A valid concern relative to getting off the ground with every drop of fuel you can.
**************************************************************

From Ric

Okay.  Any of our flying TIGHARs want to take a ping pong ball to 12,000 feet in the interest of science?

And just for the fun of it (Vern, you're gonna love this) let's establish the volume of a ping pong ball and calculate how many it would take to float a 7,000 pound (empty-weight) Lockheed Electra.  Then let's weigh a garden-variety ping pong ball and see what the wieght penalty would be.

Incidentally, we've already calculated the buoyancy effect of the empty fuel tanks.  Sans ping pong balls, and assuming that the tanks remained intact, NR16020 would be 1,100 pounds buoyant.  She'd bob like a cork, but she'd be standing on her nose.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:01:28 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Attack Routes To Japan

Ric wrote:

>I'll just add that our opinion that Earhart was not involved in any covert
>government mission is not based upon any assessment of what the Roosevelt
>administration would or wouldn't do.  It's based upon the complete lack of
>evidence that any such relationship existed and the abundance of evidence
>which suggests that it did not.

In the area of pure speculation, I've long believed that the direction of the second attempt made no sense relative to a spy mission.  The first attempt would have made more sense.  Why place the operation in jeapordy by flying more than 2/3 around the world to get to the area of interest?  Go west and get there more quickly and with less risk of something happening to plane and/or crew.  And losing all that special spy equipment they were carrying!  Big, fancy cameras, etc, etc!!

Various writings have it that there was concern that they would be into the storm season in the Atlantic by the time they had to make that crossing in early summer. So, they headed east to get that behind them before the storms fired up.  If it had been a spy mission in the Pacific, I think they would have headed west regardless.
************************************************************

From Ric

Conspiracy author Jim Donahue ("The Earhart Disappearance- The British Connection", Sunshine House,1987) has that one covered.  You see, the entire world flight was a spy mission.  AE was working not only for the U.S. but also for Britain.  She gathered valuable intelligence as she flew across Africa, through Italian-held Eritrea, not to mention the Japanese strongholds in the Pacific.  Never underestimate the paranoia of a conspiracy buff.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:15:11 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: more about balls

OK, Ric, the jig's up.  You're going to HAVE to tell them about the Gerald Gallagher Memorial Table Tennis Team that had the big shoot-out with the coasties....

Love and a jump over the net to Mother
TK
***********************************************************

From Ric

Oh my god.  I had forgotten about that.  Come to think of it, remember all those seabird eggs over on Nutiran?  What if......
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:21:48 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Ping Pong Balls Forever

Ric:  Your best follow-up for the ping pong balls question is Ann Pellegreno - Do not think she is on-line, but maybe?  You must know her addess, telephone in Story City, Iowa?  Forget Linda Finch, also the young lady author, I Was Amelia Earhart - these two are interlopers.  Barb

***********************************************************

From Ric

No, I've never talked to Ann Pellegreno.  Never thought that she'd have much to contribute to the investigation.  She rode/flew around the world in an Electra in 1967 and wrote a fairly interesting book about the experience.  The TV interviews I've seen recently indicate that she has bought into the conspiracy nonsense.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:32:47 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Movie deals

Ric and Clyde:  If Spielberg, or other of power comes on board, be sure to let me add what's missing in your magnaminous efforts so far.  In 1989, I came very close with Bernie Kowalski, maker of Clint Eastwood, Baretta, Air Wolf, etc and CE to putting the movie story line together.  All agreed, the story was "in the people" - people like Ric Gillespie, who, although a short timer, is paying his dues.  Of course, in those daze and since D-Day in 1937, the "smoking-gun" sought, the stories started and continue to keep us hooked.  Barb
**************************************************************

From Ric

Barb.  I was kidding.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:36:55 EDT
From:          Barb Wiley
Subject:      Documents (Wiley)

I have copies of correspondence to FBI head in 1937, documented reports of radio signals as many as nine to twelve daze following her ETA somewhere.......  Barb

BTW these documents all public domain, no secret, open to anyone who devoted to taking time, effort, money to find out.  Barbara
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:46:23 EDT
From:          Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: Juarez adventures (Wiley)

Ron (Dawson):  You are among the chosen who, for what ever reason,  has become part of an intriguing scenario wrapped around the mystery of A.E.  You should hear some of the stories related by individuals, like yourself, who just were curious - stories that go back as far as 1937.  Your story, stories of others over the years are captivatingly interesting, highly suggestive of something rotten in this trip (the world flight) and that there was more than meets the eye.  It is my opinion that the story now, after all the years, miles, and motives to hide truth, the story lies in the "stories". The conclusion must be left to the reader - listener - viewer.  I do not believe a plane or parts of will be found or, if so, recognizable, so what we have is a volume of interesting stories, some plausible, some bizarre, but interesting, no doubt.  This forum is evidence of the human interest in this mystery.  Barbara

*************************************************************

From Ric

A gentle reminder.  The following is from the published guidelines for postings to this forum:

"Our purpose here is to promote an intelligent and productive discussion of
the Earhart disappearance.  Specifically, we want to further our investigation
of TIGHAR's hypothesis that Earhart and Noonan, and probably the airplane,
ended up on Gardner Island (now known as Nikumaroro) in the Phoenix Group.  We
will not discuss conspiracy theories on this forum, nor will we debate whether
the airplane crashed at sea near Howland.  We feel that we have already
established a strong probability that the flight arrived in the vicinity of
Howland Island pretty much on schedule and, as of the last officially received
radio transmission, had adequate remaining fuel to reach Gardner Island.  The
question is, did it?

"Likewise, we will not discuss Earhart's personality, previous record-setting
flights, love life, place in history, etc. unless it directly pertains to the
discovery, verification, or disqualification of evidence relating to her
disappearance.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:54:04 EDT
From:          Don  Jordan
Subject:      Evil twins

Barb Wiley wrote:

> Jerry  The Gularte Family in California - near Gilroy was the family of
> Noonan's last wife.  There are collections of memorbilia still in the
> family, I think.  The person who has the most updated info. on Katherine
> and Noonan's two sons is Ann Pellegreno, Story City, Iowa - don't think she
> is on line.  She is an author of Iowa Takes To The Air, Vols 1 & 2.  Ann
>  knows a lot, just like Dick Strippel.  Barb

I don't think I understand this post.  Who is the Gularte Family.  Did I miss something while I was on vacation?  I've never heard of this family!  Somebody fill me in...

Don
**************************************************************

From Ric

You didn't miss anything.  The best I can figure is that there were actually two Amelia Earharts and two Fred Noonans who disappeared in 1937.  Barb's reference must be to the other pair.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:56:13 EDT
From:          Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: engine condition

As usual, you've done your homework! In fact it is possible (assuming all the maintenance was done & replacement parts installed as recorded) those engines may have been performing better at the end of the flight than at the beginning, as they had certainly undergone a thorough "breaking-in" period & I would assume that AE had certainly had ample opportunity to "fine-tune" her fuel consumption measurement technique over the course of her flight.

Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:15:04 EDT
From:          Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: Attack Routes To Japan

There is yet one other possibility, the AE flight was merely a "cover" to focus the Japanese attention on her flight while the US Navy attempted some type of covert effort to penetrate the Japanese secrecy cloaking their mandate islands, to coincide with the Lae to Howland leg of the flight. The trouble with that "theory" is that there is absolutely no documented proof that such an effort was made, at least not in any of the pre-WWII documentation revealed to date & given the ingenuity of the current crop of hackers surfng the nets, I'm certain if any such documentation existed, it would have surfaced by now!

Don Neumann
**********************************************************

From Ric

That's right.  For people who have only read what has come out in the various books and seen what has been shown on TV, it is perfectly natural to wonder if there might be at least a spark of fire behind all of the conspiracy smoke.

As soon as I can get to it I'll post a full debunking of the conspiracy theories on our website.  Then I'll be able to just refer those who are curious about that aspect of the Earhart legend to it and we won't need to discuss it on the forum.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:00:34 EDT
From:         John Hudak
Subject:      Conspiracy theories

May I remind Mrs. Wiley and her followers that they have yet to publish anything that would make me or anyone else believe that Earhart was part of some grand conspiracy/alien abduction, etc.

My suggestion to the conspiracy buffs is to quit this forum and publish a web page.  Start a mailing list, or see if you can get some of your views published and supported in REPUTABLE magazines.  I understood the purpose of this forum was to discuss plausible scenarios as they relate to the TIGHAR theory.

In defense of Mr. Gillespie and TIGHAR, they are the only group in 60 years who have provided hard evidence of their claims.  Through careful scientific research, actual artifacts have been produced that point to their hypothesis as being true.  It is up to everyone involved to remain open minded and objective until such time as an engine is recovered, or some form of human remains can be identified.

To date, my mailbox has been deluged with discussions of FBI reports, ping pong balls, and various other nonsense.  What does this have to do with the TIGHAR theory?  The answer is nothing.  I thought we had an
interesting discussion going with the gentleman who suggested that Fred Noonan's head measurements be taken from a photo and compared to the measurements of the remains that were found on Gardner.  Alas, that was
short-lived and now we are back to ping pong balls.

Could we please stick to the subject? It is far more intriguing than unsupportable conspiracy theories, and could lead to many interesting and detailed discussions based on EVIDENCE, and not fantasy.

Thanks,

John Hudak
Network Engineer
IPC Technologies

*************************************************************

From Ric

Thank you John.  I have to take the blame for digressions from productive discussion. Nothing appears here that I don't have the opportunity to squelch. I'm probably too First Amendment oriented.  I'll try to keep things more on track, (but an occasional ping pong ball is good for a laugh).
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:07:47 EDT
From:          Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: Movie deals

Any chance of a cameo role for me ?? :-)

Being a Brit. I could play Gallagher (about the right age) - stoically holding forth with a stiff upper lip - wrestling his concience about being told to keep the discovery of AE's bones quiet by his bosses back at the High Commission....

LTM

Simon
**************************************************************

From Ric

Well, this is off-topic but it's more fun than conspiracy theories.

So Simon has the role of Gallagher.  Who do we get to play AE and Fred?  (I'm sure Steve would appreciate it if we had all this worked out for him in advance.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:10:16 EDT
From:          Simon Ellwood
Subject:      engine condition

Ric wrote about the L10's engines....

>We have no reason to suspect that they weren't performing normally
>at the time of the disappearance.

Yes - I agree.

If AE had any engine problems then I'm sure she would have mentioned them in the radio reports. Itasca's radio logs indicate that AE's sole concern towards the end of the Lae-Howland leg was navigation - i.e. finding Howland.

Even so, had she lost an engine late in the flight (maybe after communication had been lost with Itasca) I'm sure the L10E with its big PW1340's would have had little trouble in staying aloft on one engine with the tanks pretty empty.

Not sure what that would do to the speed/range/endurance equations though - slower speed but increased endurance I would suspect as there'd be only one engine drinking. The product of the two - the overall range would probably go down some as the L10 would not be flying optimally, with a boot load of rudder in.

LTM

Simon
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:26:14 EDT
From:          Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Ping pong calculations

Ric wrote....

>Okay.  Any of our flying TIGHARs want to take a ping pong ball to 12,000 feet
>in the interest of science?
>
>And just for the fun of it (Vern, you're gonna love this) let's establish the
>volume of a ping pong ball and calculate how many it would take to float a
>7,000 pound (empty-weight) Lockheed Electra.  Then let's weigh a garden-
>variety ping pong ball and see what the wieght penalty would be.
>
>Incidentally, we've already calculated the buoyancy effect of the empty fuel
>tanks.  Sans ping pong balls, and assuming that the tanks remained intact,
>NR16020 would be 1,100 pounds buoyant.  She'd bob like a cork, but she'd be
>standing on her nose.

Great - I love stuff like this.

How many ping pong balls ??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Volume of a sphere = 4/3 x Pi x R^3
(four thirds times Pi times R cubed)

Sorry about the metric dimensions - I work better in them.

My ping pong balls are 1.5 inches in diameter = 3.8cm => radius = 1.9cm

        volume = 4/3 x 3.14159 x 1.9^3    cm cubed

                  = 28.73   cm^3 volume

Call it 28cm^3 after deducting a trivial amount for the volume of the skin.

Since 1cm^3 of water weighs 1 gram (exact for pure water, approx. for sea water with dissolved salts etc.), then bouyancy per ball = 28 grammes (almost exactly 1 ounce)


The Electra weighs 7000lbs = 7000/2.2 Kgs = 3182 Kg  = 3,182,000 grammes

        therefore, number of balls required = 3,182,000/28

                   = 113,600 balls approximately !!


Not sure what the weight of each ball is - I don't have anything that will weigh that accurately - Vern ??
************************************************************
From  Ric
I have created a monster.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:24:09 EDT
From:          Don Neumann
Subject:      Conspiracy theories

It's a lot of work, but a super idea & in the long run will probably pay for itself by saving you all that time responding to individual inquiries!   Also, any in the forum who are truly interested in the conspiracy theories & their respective origins, should append their individual e-mail addresses to their messages so they can correspond with one another "off forum" & not clutter-up the normal traffic of the forum's main objectives.

Don Neumann
*************************************************************

From Ric

Good idea.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:03:58 EDT
From:          Tom Roberts
Subject:      Fuel

Thank you, Ric, for the copy of Dick Strippel's paper on Earhart's last flight.  As anyone can see from its many references/sources, Dick has done a lot of research.  It is also evident from his paper that he can be an effective communicator, his forum postings notwithstanding.

However, Dick bases his "crashed at sea" stance on his belief that AE only had 950 gallons of fuel onboard when she took off.  He cites the Collopy Report (1100 gallons), the figures of William Polhemus (950 gallons, maximum) and the Sydney Australia Daily Telegraph (950 U.S. gallons).

We now have the Chater report which supports the 1100 gallon figure. Numerous forum members have commented on the conservatism with which take-off distances and weights (and most aircraft performance characteristics) are routinely determined; the Polhemus numbers are questionable for this reason.  And Ric has provided a plausible explanation for the Daily Telegraph numbers, if anyone is inclined to take the newspaper accounts too literally.

Dick Strippel concludes that AE made it to the vicinity of Howland Island with little fuel left, and burning it at the rate of 35 to 38 gallons per hour, assuming she began with 950 gallons.  This is virtually the same conclusion Ric would reach under the same assumption.  And if she had 150 gallons more fuel, as the more solid evidence suggests, she had about four hours to reach Nikumaroro, per Mr. Strippel's calculations.  That sounds like a consensus to me!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:07:34 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Pellegreno

Regarding Pellegreno and PP Balls:

Per Wiley, I contacted Pellegreno last week on the subject of Josie and possible Noonan children. She is not on line, and she no longer lives in Iowa. And she had no information beyond what we already know about Fred. I mentioned TIGHAR in our conversation and she indicated awareness, but not anything else that I recall. She is concentrating her time now on writing a third volume about Iowa aviation history, although she still has an interest in things Noonan. If someone else wants to contact her about PP Balls, or whatever, email me at jham@ccnet.com.

blue skies, -jerry
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:32:58 EDT
From:         Dustoff1
Subject:      Couple Questions (& Silliness)

1. Interesting stuff in your Fuel Post.  Could you please elaborate just a tiny bit on how/where the Chater Report was "lost" and then became found? Sounds like a story in itself.

Is there a record of the Electra's actual fuel consumption during the flight, or could one be established from fueling records at each stop?  The data wouldn't be definitive, but might prove useful in supporting theories.

Cliche:  The three most useless things in aviation:  The altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel you didn't get.  No doubt in my mind.  Those two had as much fuel as physically possible on takeoff, checked it a million times enroute, and nursed it to the last minute.

2. The "post lost" radio transmissions are fascinating stuff.  Will they ever be more than anecdotal?  What would it take to move them into the realm of "hard evidence".  In your opinion, which -if any- are credible?

3. Don't paddle me, but as you know -AND stripple HAS POINTED OUT- I'm not especially sharp.  Given that, why, exactly, do we care about PP balls? Where would this line of reasoning take us?

Bouncing right along, and buoyed that you've not sunk me,...Yet.   Any chance the Jack-in-the-Box PP Balls are involved in some conspiratorial way? Remember the commercial where they' re all gathered in a meeting hall?  What could they be discussing?  Hummmm?   Some look suspiciously the worse for wear.  Coulda just rolled out of a wing, or be hung-over, or floated (no extremities, can't swim.  Hey, it would take sixty years!) in from Japan. (Just my very own Gumpian theory.)

With that, I'll table my discussion.  Keep up the good work.

Dustoff1.

**************************************************************

From Ric

1.  Here's the story behind the lost Chater report (excerpted from the fuel treatise):

"Following Earhart's disappearance and the failed search, William T. Miller of the U.S. Bureau of Air Commerce was anxious to get information about what transpired in Lae.  Miller knew that his friend Maurice E. "Frank" Griffin of Placer Management Limited, a Canadian mining company with offices in San Francisco, had connections in Lae via the company's gold mining operations there.  On July 21, 1937 he sent a telegram to Griffin asking if he could "obtain information from Lae relative to Miss Earhart's departure."  Griffin had a good relationship with Eric Chater, the General Manager at Guinea Airways in Lae and Earhart's host for the time she was there.  On July 22nd Griffin sent a cable to Chater saying that the U.S. government was requesting information about Earhart's departure from Lae.  On July 27th Chater sent Griffin this cable:

MISS EARHART DEPARTED LAE TEN AM LOCAL TIME JULY 2ND ELEVEN HUNDRED US GALLONS
GASOLENE SEVENTYFIVE GALLONS OIL ABOARD MOTORS PERFECT CONDITION LENGTH TAKE
OFF RUN 850 YARDS LAE GROUND STATION RECEIVED RADIOPHONE MESSAGES FROM MACHINE
UNTIL FIVE EIGHTEEN PM LOCAL TIME JULY SECOND STOP FULL REPORT POSTED VIA
SYDNEY.

Griffin passed the info on to Miller by telegram the same day.  On August 5, 1937 Chater's full eight-page report reached J. Colclough at Placer's Sydney, Australia office and was duly forwarded on to Griffin in San Francisco.  It was September 10, 1937 before Griffin's office received the report and wrote to Chater thanking him and saying that a copy had been sent to the U.S. government.  On September 15, 1937 Miller wrote to Griffin acknowledging receipt of Chater's report.  As far as we know, that's the last anybody heard of the Chater report until December 1991 when Hugh Leggatt, Manager of Corporate Communications at Placer Dome Inc., Vancouver, B.C. telephoned TIGHAR's Executive Director, Richard Gillespie, to say that he had come across an Amelia Earhart file while going through old company records.  He said the file contained an eight-page report and two "flimsies" from a Mr. Eric Chater  along with a number of associated letters and telegrams.  He graciously offered to send one of the original flimsies plus photocopies of the supporting correspondence.

As for reconstructing fuel consumption for earlier legs of the world flight, that would require having fuel receipts that no longer exist (as far as I know).  We have one fuel receipt from Darwin that was in the Purdue collection.  It shows that they took on 365 gals (assume Imperial?) of "Stanavo 87" (Standard Aviation Oil Co. 87 octane).  That, by itself, doesn't do us much good.

2.  The post-loss messages are not anecdotal.  We have authoritative contemporaneous documents which establish that the signals were heard.  What is really hard to prove is whether any of them were really from the airplane. The only thing I can think of that would do that would be finding Amelia's journal with the notation that such and such a message was sent at such and such a time.

We can dream.

3.  We don't actually care at all about ping pong balls except that the forum seems to find them fun to play with.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:35:28 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Heller article

I imagine that most of you who have done extensive web searches have come across this article. For those of you who may not have, I encourage you to read

*Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan: WWII's First Casualties in the Pacific?*
at http://www.npri.org/nj97/05/lindy.htm

It was written by Ralph Heller, "Senior Research Fellow" of the Nevada Policy Research Institute (whatever that is), published in their monthly online newsletter "The Nevada Journal".

Apparently the only book Heller read about the disappearance is the one by Vince Loomis and the late Jeff Ethell, because he talks the Loomis line throughout.

Among several astounding statements in his article is this one:

"The truth is that neither Earhart nor Noonan were skilled navigators and neither of them knew how to work the state-of-the-art navigation equipment designed especially for their 'round-the-world journey."

Noonan, not a skilled navigator? Am I not correct in my impression that Fred Noonan was one of the most experienced navigators alive in 1937?

Tom
*************************************************************

From Ric

Your impression is correct.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:52:49 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Casting the film

The No Land Club* will be the USS Colorado aerial search team.

I will play Lt.  Lambrecht.

Upon return of the Colorado to Honolulu, I would like to be interviewed by a reporter about what I didn't see.

I would like the reporter to be Claudia Schiffer.

Ric, thank you for your consideration in this matter.

LTM,

Mike
*************************************************************

From Gene Dangelo:

     Re: Movie deals---don't forget me, I have a Master's degree in Music Composition---I can write the score!!!!  :)
***************************************************************
From mike@strick.net

Oh boy...  Here we go....

Earhart: Juliette Binoche
Noonan: Robin Williams
Putnam: Dick Strippel
*************************************************************
From Ric

Putnam sounds good.  In all fairness, we should treat your AE and FN as nominees.

The cast so far:

Juliette Binoche (nominee) as Amelia Earhart

Robin Williams (nominee) as Frederick J. Noonan

Dick Strippel as George Palmer Putnam

Simon Ellwood as Gerald B. Gallagher, Officer in Charge, Phoenix Island Settlement Scheme (OIC, PISS)

The No Land Club* as the USS Colorado aerial search team, featuring Mike Ruiz as Lt. John O. Lambrecht USN

Claudia Schiffer as the reporter who interviews Lambrecht upon his to California (Colorado didn't go back to Honolulu).

Original score by Gene Danagelo
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:56:18 EDT
From:         Ann Hinricks
Subject:      1935 Nat'l Geo article

Greetings to all, I just read an interesting article in the May 1935 issue of National Geographic Magazine...."My Flight From Hawaii" by Amelia Earhart.Her descriptions of flight prep.,survival gear,two-way radio telephone,etc.I found to be interesting.Two interesting photos I'd never seen before: A.E. with Mrs. Paul Mantz and the other of A.E. in a rubber raft. Ann 2101
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:03:18 EDT
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      single-engine performance

Simon Ellwood wrote:

> I'm sure the L10E with its big
> PW1340's would have had little trouble in staying aloft on one engine
> with the tanks pretty empty.
>
> Not sure what that would do to the speed/range/endurance equations
> though -

You are right!, but primarily because of the plane's reduced weight.  Every two engine plane can fly on one engine.  How high & how fast is related to the power/weight ratio.   Except for fighters that have a large ratio of power to weight, "..big engines.." only mean the designer can have more gross weight.  50% engine operation does not increase range.  However war time C-54 pilots maintained that for endurance in a holding pattern, they could get a bit more time  (waiting for weather or other landing impediment) by feathering the two outboard engines. I never tried that so do not know.   RC

*************************************************************

From Ric

Lockheed P-3 Orion pilots routinely shut down the two outboard engines while on long-range patrol.

More to the point, when Earhart and company were flying to Hawaii on the first world flight attempt, they found themselves ahead of schedule and approaching landfall before daybreak.  To slow their progress while waiting for sunup, the power was backed off until they were burning only 20 gph.  This kind of loafing maximize the time you can remain aloft but it's not an efficient way to cover ground (or water).
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:06:56 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      mechanics to go

Regards to engine work on route:  Art Kennedy, Portugal, was to be part of the team of mechanics to go - He would be a great first hand eye witness to what was - He is getting on in years, but to my knowledge is still alive and holds much information since he was AE's mechanic in Burbank following the first attempt, he and his wife knew her personally and she talked to him about her pending second attempt and he was first on site when the plane returned from Hawaii for repairs - Barb

***********************************************************

From Ric

I was not aware that there ever was a "team of mechanics to go."  Earhart knew that she could get competent maintenance at several planned stops such as Karachi and Bandoeng and Lae.

Do you have an address or phone number for Mr. Kennedy?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:19:10 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      P-38 Fuel Usage

Forwarded by Randy Jacobson, from his dad:

I did not see or meet Col. Lindbergh during the 3 combat tours at Guadalcanal from October 42 to June 43.  Each tour lasted about 6 weeks with rest periods in New Caledonia, Australia and New Zealand. He either spent his time in the Pacific in Mac Arthur's Southwest Pacific (New Guinea) area or visited Guadalcanal during my rest periods. Incidentely, I did meet him once during a "Fighter Meet" at Eglin AFB, Florida early in 1943. He was the only occupant of the small trailer setup to house the parachutes and helmets when I entered to get my equipment for a forthcoming test flight of a British Spitfire. Our total conversation lasted only a few moments.  I eventually ended up behind him at the takeoff runway.  He took what I thought to be an unusual long time checking his mags and whatever else he was checking. I heard later that he was that king of a pilot...very careful.

Regarding P-38 fuel usage, we usually carried two 165 gal. external belly tanks on all combat missions, dropping them when about to engage enemy aircraft.  As I recall our normal cruising RPM and throttle setting was 2,400 RPM with 30" of mercury. If in contact with enemy aircraft, we would step-it-up to 3,000 RPM at full throttle of 62".

The only time, other than the Yamamoto Mission, we ever throttled back to either conserve fuel or keep from over-running the B-17's leading us into Guadalcanal from New Caladonia. We were unable to navigate thru the open ocean that far with our simple compass so had to rely on the B-17's Navigator.

Regarding the Yamamoto Mission, we were able to acquire enough 300 gal. external belly tanks from Mac Arthur's area to hang one each to our P-38's.  It was not a problem having one 165 and one 300 tank attached. It's been over 55 years from that April 18, 1943 mission but my memory recalls that we were instructed to reduce our RPM to 2,000 and throttle back to 25 or 26 inches of mercury.  We were told that any lower settings would foul-up our plugs if held for an extended period.

We anticipated encountering enemy aircraft so naturally used fuel from the external 300 gal. tank first. It was important to have as much fuel as possible left internally when we dropped our external tanks. At full throttle, fuel was being used 2 to 3 times normal.

Dad J.

PS: One of the CC"s to your original message mentioned Kelly Johnson.  I was fortunate to have met him at the Lockheed factory in Burbank, Calif. late in 1943.  Since John Mitchell (leader of Yamamoto Mission) and I were assigned to Muroc Flight Test Base in the 412th Fighter Gp. we were involved with the first Jets flying the Bell P-59.  We were invited to Lockheed to get the first look at the original hand made P-80, known then as the "MX409".  It had been designed and built in 93 days.  It was shortly thereafter trucked to Muroc for its initial test flight by Tony Lavere.  I was the 4th Air Force pilot to fly it. What a "Thrill"  Seeing 400 MPH indicated at 5,000 ft. at cruising throttle. It had no armor plating or guns & ammo so was very light and extremely manuverable.

JJ
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:33:58 EDT
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      For Wiley

Could  Barb Wiley please state the source of her information about Art Kennedy, Portugal?  Does she have his full name, date of birth or last known residence?  If forward it to me and I'll be happy to work it.
There might be more information and possibly yet undiscovered eye witnesses.

Roger Kelley, 2112
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:40:28 EDT
From:         A. Stewart
Subject:      Re: Casting the film

What have we started... I have a queasy feeling this thread is going to become very off topic and silly, but it might be fun.

Well, as far as movie deals go, I have a background in archaeology while continually failing my B.A. Despite being a Yankee, I've been studying in Ireland though - so most of my archaeology knowledge is wading through muddy fields being attacked by cows having other students get stuck on electric fences while trying to find some rocks. BUT... Despite being a failed liberal arts dork - I'm starting at the London International Film School this year, which includes Michael Mann (Heat, Last of the Mohicans) and Mike Leigh (Oscar nominee for Secrets and Lies) amongst its few alumni. I'd take the islands with a Panavision II over cow fields with Wellington boots and a sketch pad any day.

I digress...

Amelia Earhart: Juliette Binoche. Look, Binoche is a goddess. I've hunted down her obscure, wacky artso French films just to watch her, stuff like Leos Carax's Mauvais Sang. But she is just too damn French. If you've ever heard a voice recording of Amelia, you know that it's got to be an American actress who plays her, no offense to anyone...

My nominee is fixed considering a viable age for an actress to play the role at various different ages. It's easier to make someone look older than younger. So I nominate Gwyneth Paltrow - hear me out... Despite being raised in Hollywood, she has a nice lazy drawl - which suits Amelia's voice. Her face matches Amelia as a young woman about as good as anyone else. And she has the same build - long and thin. And there's a quality about Paltrow that reminds me of Earhart - somehow, ultimately unknowable. Even when she's trying to act open or unguarded, Paltrow seems to exude a distance, an ambiguity. Amelia's sense of style (high for its time) and boldness seemed to couple with a very romantic and private individual - whoever plays her would have to capture that. And that's Amelia for me...

As for the rest, I'm stumped. Robin Williams - too stout... Of the pictures I've seen, Noonan wasn't a shoo in for Chewbacca on Rogaine, either. Putnam would be especially difficult to cast because they'd probably put him in the trap of (in a modern context) a boo hiss villain who uses his wife - whoever plays Putnam would have to bring across something barely noticeable as manipulation, coupled with something charismatic - rather than full on Snidely Whiplash. I just had horrific thought of Billy Zane saying "Amelia, you WILL fly that route without a DF, or I shall upend this table!" <Shudder>...

Oh and in one final thought... What are the chances of Tighar organizing a bombing run on the set of a film based on Mendolsohn's novel? Can you toss molotovs out of an ultralight? I really, really hope; that in the movie industry, post Titanic (where a Hindenberg feature is being planned - I kid you not - that has been described as a love story) - someone nefarious doesn't get their hands on Earhart.

A Stewart
*************************************************************

From Ric

Off-topic, of course, but some interesting observations about Our Lady nonetheless.

We'll add Gwyneth Paltrow to the nominees for the role of Amelia.

****************************************************************

From Tom King

Can I play Harry Maude if I work on my accent?  I want to be carried across Taziman Passage.

TK
**************************************************************

From Ric

Righto!  You'll have to come off your tough-guy image though.  You'll recall that Harry had back problems at the time and Eric Bevington says that he "was always a bit precious."

***************************************************************

From Ann Hinrichs

lyrics by Tom King and Ric.I also nominate Vern for a role....love his forum postings. Ann #2101

**************************************************************

From Ric

We're flattered, I'm sure.  Anybody got a good role for Vern?

The cast so far:

Juliette Binoche (nominee) - one dissenting vote
Gwyneth Paltrow (nominee) as Amelia Earhart

Robin Williams (nominee) as Frederick J. Noonan  -one dissenting vote

Dick Strippel as George Palmer Putnam

Simon Ellwood as Gerald B. Gallagher, Officer in Charge, Phoenix Island Settlement Scheme (OIC, PISS)

The No Land Club* as the USS Colorado aerial search team, featuring

Mike Ruiz as Lt. John O. Lambrecht USN

Claudia Schiffer as the reporter who interviews Lambrecht upon his to California (Colorado didn't go back to Honolulu).

Tom King as Gilbert & Ellice Islands Colony Lands Commissioner Henry E. Maude

Original score by Gene Danagelo
Song lyrics by Gillespie and King
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:43:44 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Notice re Casting the Film

Serious researchers who are wierded out by all this silliness can just delete any posting titled "Re: Casting the Film."  It's admittedly way off topic but it's good clean fun (so far, anyway).
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:56:58 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Ping pong calculations

Simon:

Hey!  I'm sure glad you jumped in and did all the calculating!  Now I don't have to do it! <grin>

According to the International Table Tennis Federation, the regulation ping-pong ball is 30 mm in diameter, which agrees with your figure, and is made of celluloid or similar plastic material, as my earlier source had indicated. (Celluloid)

The ball weighs 2.5 gm.

As soon as I can find out what the atmospheric pressure is at altitude, and get a couple of ping-pong balls, I'll see if they would take 20,000 feet, or whatever.

************************************************************
From Ric

What I said about "Casting the Film" goes for "Ping pong calculations" too.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:27:12 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      P-38 fuel usage

Randy:  I am pleased to read your Dad's account of what was.  As time goes on perhaps we can hear on the forum even more stories of those daze that had direct relationship to AE's disappearance.  Barbara
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:29:08 EDT
From:         Barb Wiley
Subject:      Re: Arthur Kennedy

Roger:  My first conversation with Art, 1994, ($112. phone bill!) me in Monterey, CA, he in Portugal - in the daze prior to the long distance cheap rates!  Art's name and story came to me from a gentleman, former pilot, former Lockheed associate who had befriended and known Art from way back. The information most likely to find Art that I have available:  His most recent publication, High Times, An Aviation Autobiography by Arthur R. Kennedy with Jo Ann Ridley,  Fithian Press, Santa Barbara - 1992.  If you are able to contact Art, I would love to know how he is doin' these daze.

Barb
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:47:01 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      130 lbs of ping pong balls

Since the standard ping-pong ball weighs 2.5 gm, that batch of 113,600 balls will weigh about 130 pounds.  That much more weight to get off the ground, and to keep afloat if you go into the drink.

But there's a little help in the density of sea water.  A specific gravity of 1.025 is an accepted average value.  The balls will be a little more buoyant.  And whatever part of the airplane is submerged will experience a buoyant force -- it won't be as heavy as in air.

If soneone wants to get into the calculus, we can figure out how many ball will be needed to keep how much of the airplane out of the water and, consequently, how much dead weight one would have to fly with!

I'm going to content myself with finding out at what altitude ping-pong balls might be expected to explode.  I've found the altitude/pressure data I need.  Now I have to get a few ping-pong balls.  I'll just put them in a vacuum container and pump it down to pressures corresponding to various altitudes and see what happens.

Depending on what does happen, it would be interesting if someone would put a few ping-pong balls in their luggage on a flight somewhere -- verification of the laboratory results.  I don't get to fly much anymore -- no employer to pay the bill. I presume luggage still goes in unpressurized space.

**************************************************************

From Ric

If baggage holds were unpressurized, Fido would arrive looking a little different than when he left.

The big problem with putting 113,600 ping pong balls in a Lockheed 10 is where to put them.  Most of the wing area is sealed off and there's not much room in there anyway.  None of the many photos of the airplane taken during the world flight show ping balls balls spilling from the open cabin door.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:48:25 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Balls

I know it took a lot of balls to attempt an around-the-world flight, but 113,000?!?!

Forgive me, but someone had to say it...
Tom
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:53:51 EDT
From:         Tp, Robison
Subject:      Casting the film

I vote for either Sam Sheppard or Liam Neeson as Noonan... (Robin Williams???) I can also see Harry Connick Jr. as Noonan.

And as for Amelia, I can't help but see Susan Sarandon... yes, she's a little old, now, but those special effects folks can do wonders.

And I kinda liked Bruce Dern as Putnam in whichever of those TV-movies. Or was Putnam really more like John Forsythe?

Can I play the radio operator on the Itasca? I'm just about as ignorant about radio procedures as he was.

(Perhaps I'm being uncharitable, but I get the impression from Ric's article "Log Jam" that the radio geek on the Itasca wasn't too swift.)

No "blockbuster" movie can be made nowadays without Leonardo DiCaprio... what part shall he play? Ric Gillespie? ;>)

Tom
***************************************************************

From Ric

I'll second Liam Neeson as Noonan.  Susan Sarandon as AE?  Maybe.  AE was within days of her 40th birthday.

LEONARDO DICAPRIO?  Gimme a break!  At least gimme an adult.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:11:40 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Hope for the forum

Lest anyone fear that the forum is stuck in an endless round of meaningless ping pong calculations and movie fantasies, I'd like to report that Jeff Glickman at Photek is now studying photos we've provided of AE and Fred for possible use in biometric comparisons with the skull measurements taken in 1941.  One our first tasks will be to establish scale in the photos, which could be tricky and could require some help form the forum.  For example:  How long was the pocket clip of a Parker pen (distinctive arrow motif) in 1937? Fred has one in his shirt pocket and it's in the same plane with his head. Could be a useful scale.

The Noonan Project group is still hard at work and is checking out some new leads.  Fred, it turns out, may be from New Orleans.

We're also planning a major research trip to Tarawa for later this year to see if we can pull any more good information out of the archive there.  There are also some older folks in Tarawa who used to live on Niku and supposedly have some interesting stories to tell. I know, I know, anecdotes.  But that's where it always starts.

I'd really like to get an answer on our can label fragment.  Many have tried but no luck so far.

I'm still waiting to hear back from Belden Wire and cable and also some Dick Pingrey's friend Ty sundstrom about the co-ax cables.

We're also working on a major overhaul of the TIGHAR website.  Look for downloadable historic documents and photo tours of Nikumaroro in the near future.

And if you haven't joined TIGHAR yet and received the latest hard-copy issue of TIGHAR Tracks (complete with 11 x 17 pull-out map of Nikumaroro), what are you waiting for?  A personal invitation from the Executive Director?  You got it.  I would be most pleased if you would honor us with your official participation in the organization.  Thanks.

Ric

(Leonardo DiCaprio?)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 07:58:35 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: 130 lbs of ping pong balls

Here we have it.  Either the Japanese or the Brits, or maybe the Vulcans, filled up all those extra fuel tanks with pingpong balls, which is why AE and FN ran out of fuel, crashed and sank.

Another thing somebody had to say.

LTM
TK
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:05:22 EDT
From:         Mike Scott-Williams
Subject:      Re: Hope for the forum

Jeez, but it is nice to see some sense spoken for a change

Mike
-----------------------------------
Mike Scott-Williams
P.O. Box 362, Hilton, 3245.
Epworth School, Pietermaritzburg.
South Africa
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:12:06 EDT
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: P-38 fuel usage

Barbara,

I'm curious - please explain how the fuel management procedures of P-38 pilots in WWII "had direct relationship to AE's disappearance."

Also, perhaps you are in a daze, but the plural form of "day" is spelled D-A-Y-S.

  -Russ
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:35:17 EDT
From:         Pam Sedgmen
Subject:      New TIGHAR

Hi everyone.  I am a relatively new member to the Forum and find all this goings on extremely fascinating.  As has been said before - the cheque is in the mail.

If you need a hand with any queries down-under, please do not hesitate to ask.  I may be able to help with both Australia, Papua New Guinea and New Zealand.

Also, there was some talk early on regarding the shoe heel and sole  and that AE may have had two pairs of shoes.  Just a thought.  Being that close to home and leaving the emergency flares in Lae, why would someone take an extra pair of shoes knowing that when she made it back to USA that she could have probably bought the shoe company.

Just a thought.

Keep up the good work.

Pam Sedgmen

***************************************************************

From Ric

Welcome aboard Pam, and thanks for the offer of help.  We'll keep you in mind.

Your mention of the cheque in the mail reminds me to remind all of our non-US TIGHARs that, due to the insanely provincial nature of the our banking system (which seems to be rapidly merging to a point where there will be one American National Bank), we have to ask that checks (cheques, whatever) be drawn in US dollars.  I know.  It's embarrassing.  Any bank in Australia or The Netherlands or South Africa will take a check in US funds, but to process a $45 check drawn in Aussie dollars costs us $24.  Idiocy.

Anyway - the best way to beat the system is with plastic.  We can take VISA or MasterCard.  You can fax us the information (name, card number, expiration date) at (302) 994-7945, or give it to us over the phone at (302) 994-4410. Soon we'll have the ability to accept secure financial transactions via our website - and our bank will still be acting like the national bank of Tuvalu.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:42:39 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Wires and such

What is the status of the investigation into the piece of wire that was either a magneto lead or a comm system connection?

Attempting to summarize various postings suggests that AE/FN missed Howland because of the following:
- they did not have the trailing wire for 500khz communication. (fact)
- Itasca was on local time and AE was on GMT time, causing them to be 30 minutes out of sequence with one another. (fact)
- Itasca did not have correct transmitting freq for AE's DF. (fact)
- AE probably did not have receiving antenna for voice communication. (strong possibility)

Please comment or correct as appropriate.

Blue skies, -jerry
***************************************************************

From Ric

>What is the status of the investigation into the piece of wire...

We're waiting for results of analysis by a company that makes such cable and by an expert in old aircraft wire.

>- they did not have the trailing wire for 500khz communication. (fact)

correct

>- Itasca was on local time and AE was on GMT time, causing them to be 30 minutes out of sequence with one another. (fact)

correct

>- Itasca did not have correct transmitting freq for AE's DF. (fact)

incorrect.  Itasca could have transmitted on an appropriate frequency but the frequency AE asked for was inappropriate.

>- AE probably did not have receiving antenna for voice communication. (strong possibility)

correct, due to its accidental removal during the takeoff from Lae.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:49:24 EDT
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      Re: Canton engine excavation

I dont know if you have them in the US, but over here and probably in Fiji also there are small backhoes called bobcats, they are only about 1.5m long and about as wide.

David J Kelly
*************************************************************

From Ric

Yeah.  We've got them too.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:58:42 EDT
From:         Barb Norris
Subject:      Casting the film

I vote for Harry Connick Jr. as Noonan, same build and handsome face. Besides, he could really sing those tunes Dr. Tom writes while he and Amelia wait on Niku for someone to notice the ping pong balls floating in the water.

***************************************************************

From Simon Ellwood

Sorry to continue this nonsense - but it is fun:-

I'd like to second Gwyneth Paltrow as AE - I agree with everything A. Stewart said regarding her qualities - a little young perhaps but she gets my vote.

Liam Neeson as FN - definitely YES !  excellent choice.

Ric Gillespie - Robert Redford ? (a little old now perhaps ;-)
              - how about an assertive man of action - Tommy Lee Jones ?

NR16020 to be played by a REAL L10E (if you can find one Mr. Spielberg) and not some Beech impersonator.  Still - if you can't find one you could always BUILD one - I'm sure a measly L10E is well within the grasp of a man who builds 9/10th's scale Titanic's !

LTM
Simon
*************************************************************

From Russ Matthews (0509CE)
MatthewsRE@aol.com

Susan Sarandon?  AE was almost forty, but Ms. Saradon is over fifty and more..uh ..full-figured than our heroine.  Add my dissent to Juliette Binoche as well.  I nominate Sigourney Weaver.

Sorry Tom, I cast the part of Ric Gillespie years ago.  TIGHAR's executive director will be played by the great Chuck Norris.  The look is pretty close and he can handle the inevitable action scenes that will have to be added to the story.

I think we also decided that Dr. Tom King will be assayed by Sean Connery. Remember, he played Indiana Jones' father - what better qualifications can you get?

Possible parts for Leo?  How about Sam Chapman - AE's first love?

How many members are there in the No Land Club*?  If it's fewer than 6, I want the part of Lambrect's (Ruiz') observer who's asleep in the back as we fly over the Electra.  Of course when we return to California, my reporter girlfriend (Claudia Schiffer) is there waiting for me.

  LTM,
  Russ
****************************************************************

From Ric

Does it strike anyone else as odd that Tom King and I are the only characters being cast for this film who are not dead?  Couldn't we - like - play ourselves? Tom, I wonder if they're trying to tell us something?

***************************************************************
From Dustoff1

Ric:  You're sense is right again!  All research and no play makes the forum members grumpy, boring, and stogy.  We can always get serious in a heartbeat.

Soooo,...

Since this is a movie we can write it however we like, Right?.  Let's write in a helicopter!!  I flew helicopters.  I want to be the helicopter pilot. You can kill me off if you like, but I can do this!!

If no, then I want to play the part of the bones.

If I can't be the bones, then I want to be the ping pong balls.

Dick cannot be Putnam.  He would, however, be perfect for the part of the found heel!!!  I'd volunteer to write his dialogue!  It would be in caps since he'd have to shout to be heard from the bottom of Earhart's foot.  A sample scene:

Over some isolated jungle during the trip, the Electra's gotta land for,... whatever.  They shut down and AE gets out.

DICK SPEAKS:  "OH NO, NOT ANOTHER COW PASTURE!!!"
AE:  "Just be quiet and cushion my stride, or into the fire you go."

Just then, Natives attack and they (the crew, not the natives) quick-like crankup (the airplane) and take off in a hurry, record time off the ground, turnin' and burnin'!! They just get the gear up when AE looks at Fred and says, "That's what I call burning rubber."  End of scene.

GOOD STUFF HUH????  You know you love it.

P.S.  I really wanna be the bones.

P.P.S.  Could be I inhaled to much JP4.

***************************************************************

From Ric

You got it Dustoff.  You can be the bones, but we only need your skull, one cervical vertibra, part of your right scapula, part of a rib, your left humerus, right radius, right innominate bone, both femurs, right tibia, right fibula, and the scaphoid bone of your right foot.  The rest of you can just hang out in the trailer on the set.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:37:23 EDT
From:         Dustoff1
Subject:      GMT

Please verify:  "Itasca was on local time and AE was on GMT time, causing them to be 30  minutes out of sequence with one another. (fact) correct"

Is there a case where converting from local to GMT means adding other than whole hours?  Per the above I guess so, huh.  Perhaps-- well no, certainly-- my memory is failing, but I thought not.  It's been a while since I did any of that, so, just chequeing.  (Drop the e or no?)  :)

Best, Dustoff1.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Back then, the Navy and the Coast Guard divided the Pacific into half-hour time zones.  Howland happened to be 11 and a half hours from Greenwich.  Even today, there are some 1/2 hour time zones.  Standard time in Newfoundland, for example, is GMT minus 3 and a half hours.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:59:17 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Casting the film

Russ & Ruiz are busy fighting over Claudia as they fly over Niku (which is why they don't see Amelia waving at them).

SInce we need action heros, I vote for Kevin Costner as Noonan.  Will fit in with a spy thriller theme like "No Way Out".

Kim Basinger as AE.  (we gotta look real good in Hollywood, folks).

Putnam should be whoever that was on Titanic that was Winslet's fiancee.

Schwartznegger plays Tom King, in the movies we need scaveola terminated, and rather quickly.

Gotta find that plane.

The TIGHAR team should include the complete military contingent in Aliens II.

We need to find them some opposition as they storm Aukaraime.

Possibly Gilbertese commandos armed by the Chinese.
****************************************************************

From Ric

This film is starting to look less like Spielberg and more like Quentin Tarantino.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:25:31 EDT
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      antenna debate

In a recent post to Jerry Hamilton, you said AE lost the voice antenna at take off from Lae. FACT!

How did that become FACT?  The last I heard it was speculation based on some old news footage.

Beside, I don't believe it anyway.  There were too many people watching her take off.  Someone would have noticed and flagged her down before take off.  If it were lost during the take off run, they would have seen
it and made a concentrated effort to notify her by radio.  And as far as I know there was no mention and no attempt to tell her.

If it came loose, or broke off but stayed attached to the fuselage they most likely would have heard it banging against the side in the slip stream.  I don't remember reading anywhere, but was there any two way
communication with the Electra during the early stages of the hop?

I don't think she lost the antenna!  I think it worked just fine for about 15 hours and them died...stopped transmitting.  I don't think she even knew it.  Now would she?  There wasn't anybody out there to answer
her.

Probably, after many, many attempts, the transmitter died too. Remember, a very reliable source said the radio was not working on the South Atlantic crossing!  I believe it died once on the Oakland to
Hawaii crossing.

A side story...I once had radio transmitter failure in an old tube type radio.  I took off from an uncontrolled airport (Atwater, CA) enroute to Bishop, CA. also uncontrolled and on the other side of one big mountain range.  I did the usual announcing on the radio at take off.  Half way across the mountains I would always make position report to the nearest FSS (Fresno).

This day they didn't answer but I made the report anyway.  No big deal!  I made the usual reports on approach to Bishop.  You know "Approaching from...downwind...base...final...

After I landed, some older airport guy came over to me and proceeded to instruct me on the use of radio at an uncontrolled airport.  I didnt' know what he was talking about...I knew the proceedure!

A week later, I discovered my radio was not working and I didn't even know it.  I could receive, but not transmit.  How embarassing and how many pilots did I piss off.

Just a story.

Don J.
**************************************************************

From Ric

Whoa - easy boy.  The actual exchange went like this:

Jerry said, <<- AE probably did not have receiving antenna for voice communication. (strong possibility)>>

To which I replied, <<correct, due to its accidental removal during the takeoff from Lae. >>

Nowhere there is the loss of the antenna represented as being fact.  We consider it to be a strong possibility because that's what the film appears to show and it fits the subsequent events (i.e. Earhart's failure to hear voice transmissions).

If the antenna mast was knocked off during the turn-around at the end of the runway (the most likely time), nobody was way up at that end to see it happen. If the dragging mast snagged and tore the wire free at the point in the takeoff run where we see the puff of dust, it's still a long way from where the people were standing.  No reason to think that anyone seeing that puff of dust would say, "My God, she's lost her antenna!"  How long might it have been before someone happened to stumble upon a length of wire laying in the grass (probably the next time the runway was mowed)?  By then there would be no sure way to connect the wire with Earhart.  Some might speculate but nobody could know for sure.  Stories might circulate (as they apparently did) but nothing more.

As for the transmitter failing after 15 hours, we have pretty good evidence that that didn't happen.  Itasca was hearing her just fine right up until she changed frequencies at 08:43 local time, which was 20 hours and 13 minutes into the flight.

About all we can say is that the inconclusive evidence of an  antenna failure on takeoff appears to explain subsequent events.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:39:35 EDT
From:         Ronnie
Subject:      Casting the film

If I can help with something simple in New Orleans let me know.  I guess if Fred was from NOLA the part is a natural for Harry Connick, Jr.  We may also get some help from his dad the DA if you gave him the role.  Harry is kinda young though, he only got out of Jesuit High about 5 years ago.. had to plug the old alma mater.

To keep the cast as close to the Big Easy as possible I suggest Pete Fountain and his Half Fast marching club for the Lost at Sea Club.  They spend most of Mardi Gras looking for a place to crash.  Jim Garrison would have been a shoo- in for Dick Strippel and may have even found a link to the Kennedy assassination.  Too bad he's dead (or so the CIA would have you think).

On a more serious note please answer why anyone in their right mind would carry a zillion ping pong balls when any number of more valid methods would aid floatability.  I'd rather have more fuel and take my chances on never winding up in the water.  If the ping pong balls weigh as much as an inflatable raft what goof would opt for trying to keep the whole plane afloat rather than just yourself.

-ronnie-
***************************************************************

From Ric

Now don't go injecting research issues into an important post about the film. I'll comment on the staying afloat issue in a separate posting.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:56:41 EDT
From:         Ronnie
Subject:      Staying afloat

please answer why anyone in their right mind would carry a zillion ping pong balls when any number of more valid methods would aid floatability.  I'd rather have more fuel and take my chances on never winding up in the water.  If the ping pong balls weigh as much as an inflatable raft what goof would opt for trying to keep the whole plane afloat rather than just yourself.

-ronnie-
***************************************************************

From Ric

While some might argue that AE was never in her right mind to begin with, it is interesting to try to deduce what her attitude was about staying afloat in the event of a failure to find land.  We have no evidence that liferaft was ever among the survival gear carried aboard the Electra (aboard the Vega for the Hawaii/Oakland flight in 1935, yes.  But not aboard the Electra.)  The available evidence suggests that she may have carried parachutes and inflatable "life preserver vests."  That seems to indicate that she had a low opinion of the survivability of ditching the airplane.  If she held that opinion it would seem well justified.  The nose section of the Model 10 is of very light construction and the cockpit is quite tight.  A landing at sea
could very easily collapse the structure on impact and trap the occupants (although this did not occur in the one Electra ditching we know about. In any event, parachutes and life vests suggest an intention to (time-honored aviation phrase) "unass" the airplane rather than ride it down.  Of course, the airplane would have whistled in and gone to the bottom immediately, and the chances of anyone finding two little bobbing heads in the expanse of the Pacific Ocean would be nil.  Bottom line:  Find land or die.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:09:02 EDT
From:         SSzul
Subject:      Re: Casting the film

how about finding out what happened to amelia?

***************************************************************

From Ric

All the film stuff is self-indulgent nonsense.  We know that.  I keep all of it under the subject heading "Casting the film" so that those who don't want to play need not be burdened with it.

The serious research continues and is never diminished by the silliness. We're an irreverent bunch and we try our best to take the work seriously but not ourselves.  Occasional digressions like "Casting the film" are as important to the forum as song parodies are to the expeditions.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:30:01 EDT
From:         Bill Zorn
Subject:      1930's ping pong balls

I went looking on-line for information on ping-pong ball manufacture or sales in the 1930's. They all think I'm quite mad . If any anybody has found anything usefull, please let me know.

I'm just guessing here, but I belive that any of the plastics from that era used to make ping-pong Balls  have a number of properties that would make them unwise in an aviation enviornment. A number of the cheap plastics  from that era had a nasty habit of igniting, especially when tightly confined. The air temperature is cold at  altitude, but lets not forget, the air passing over the wing creates friction. Addmittily I dont know how much at the speeds and altitudes of AE, but modern jets operate at altiutes where the ambient temperature is below the flow point of kerosene, dont they? Pehaps someone more skilled in the sciences or aeronautics can take that one.

I'm almost certain there is no such thing as a 'fuel-proof' ping pong ball. Even if our pingpong ball pack is stable, I would think that av-gas fumes might tend to make it dissolve or soften, rather quickly.

I can see it now, Tighar members trudging up Pikes Peak in a dry summer with a aluminum pail of av-gas, a gunny sack full of 1930's era ping-pong balls and an inverting eyepiece. Smokey the bears worst nightmare.

My vote for the film role of AE is Lisa Simpson.

william h. zorn
zornwmh@aol.com
tighar1562c
***************************************************************

From Ric

Vern has established that the balls were cellulose back then.  We also know that ping pong balls were carried on a transatlantic flight without consequence.  We're also about as sure as we can be that there were no ping pong balls aboard Earhart's Electra although there is at least a possibility that their use was contemplated, however briefly.  I think we - uh - know as much as we need to know on this subject (but it would be neat to know at what altitude a ping pong ball explodes).
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:36:24 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: GMT

There is still one place in the United States that is on a half-hour time zone: the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor (10.5 behind GMT, now called Coordinated Universal Time).  The reason for this is that the memorial seeks to keep the same time as when Pearl Harbor was attacked, and Honolulu was on 10.5 time in 1941.
****************************************************************

From Ric

Now, who says there isn't fascinating and useful information on this forum? Coordinated Universal Time huh?  That's CUTe.  Of course, in aviation we always call it ZULU time, which prompted a co-pilot I once had to insist on referring to local time as BANTU time.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:40:49 EDT
From:         Sam Ginder
Subject:      Parker Pen Arrow Clip Measurement

I have just measured the Parker Pen arrow clip on the Parker pen my father gave me in 1945. The arrow, used to secure the pen in a shirt pocket measures 1 and 3/5 inches from top of the arrow to the tip. Hope this helps in calibrating the skull fragment measurements.
Sam Ginder

****************************************************************

From Ric

Way to go Sam!  I KNEW the forum would come through.  1945 is not 1937 but it's pretty good.  How long are the clips on 1998 Parkers?  If they haven't changed since '45, chances are they've never changed.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:43:10 EDT
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      UTC +/- MINUTES

In addition to Newfoundland (Z-3:30) mentioned by Ric, the Air Almanac lists one other :30 slow on Z, (Marquesas Is.) and 14 others :30 fast on Z, and two :45 fast on Z (Chatham Is. & Nepal).   USSR has 10 time zones, from Z+2 to Z+11 hrs.  I seem to recall that 50 years ago there were some in the Pacific that ran odd minutes from Z.  Not listed as such now.

UTC, (initials for "Universal Cordinated Time", formerly GMT & GCT , (Green. Mean & Civil)  now abbrev. Z, spoken ZULU     RC 941
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:46:49 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: antenna debate

Well, y'know, Ric, your statement DID make it seem like fact.  I noticed it, too, and it struck me as an odd departure from your usual extreme care about not portraying hypothesis as reality.

So you're human?  Good heavens!  What a surprise after all these years of practicing infallability.

KB
TK

****************************************************************

From Ric

One of the things I really love about running this organization is the deep reverence in which I'm held by the members.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:49:54 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: antenna debate

I seem to recall in all the information exchanged in the forum regarding the problems involving radio communication between the ground/ship stations & AE, the consensus appeared to conclude that it was not her ability to transmit messages, but  her seeming inability to receive messages that hindered such communications.   In fact, I seem to recall that AE actually acknowledged receiving only one such message after leaving Lae & that was the "directional" signal transmitted by Itasca, which she did acknowledge she'd heard,  but was unable to take a bearing from such signal, in her next to last "confirmed" transmission.

**************************************************************

From Ric

You recall correctly.  It is the one received message over the loop antenna which makes us strongly suspect that the problem was with the voice receiving antenna rather than with the receiver itself.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:54:05 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Casting the film

Ric wrote:

>You got it Dustoff.  You can be the bones, but we only need your skull, one
>cervical vertebra, part of your right scapula, part of a rib, your left
>humerus, right radius, right innominate bone, both femurs, right tibia, right
>fibula, and the scaphoid bone of your right foot.  The rest of you can just
>hang out in the trailer on the set.

LOL, Ric! And continue being the benevolent dictator, please. I'm on several history-related lists that just don't know how, or refuse, to have a little fun.

Indeed, if a serious side of the subject turns up, we should all turn down the silliness and pay attention and participate. But as long as the fun is sort-of on topic, why not enjoy it?

Chuck Norris as Ric Gillespie? Well, that works better than Robin Williams as Noonan. Since nobody seemed too impressed with my suggestion of Susan Sarandon as Amelia (agreed, she'd have to tone the sex appeal WAY down) how about someone who has exprerience in the role? I think Susan Clark could pull it off again, given better direction.

But a role must still be found for Leonardo DiCaprio, if this is to be a blockbuster movie. Imagine how many people today, who had never even heard of the Titanic, are now genuinely interested in an historical subject, just because they went to see a movie that had Leonardo (siiiiiigh) in it? (my 15-year-old daughter, for one. She has become a Titanic freak.)

Tom

Tom Robison
Ossian, Indiana
tcrobi@adamswells.com
****************************************************************

From Ric

I like Russ's suggestion of Leonardo for the role of Sam Chapman, AE's rejected suitor.  He could look all moon-eyed and maybe even get some more back-seat time.  And once more he'd get sunk.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:05:09 EDT
From:         Bob Williams
Subject:      Belly Receive Antenna Theory

I propose the Earhart aircraft used one HF Antenna, the Vee wire, for both receiving and transmitting.

In 1937, the state-of-the-art aircraft antenna systems used the same antenna for receiving and transmitting.  An antenna relay switched the antenna between the receiver and the transmitter.  This relay not only eliminated the need of a second antenna, its lead in wire and support mast, it also made for a more efficient receive/transmit system.  The belly antenna in question, would have been to short to have made a good HF receiving antenna at the frequencies she was using.

In examining the schematic drawing of Amelia's Western Electric Model 13C HF Transmitter, I found a circuit provision that accomplishes this function.  For those who have this schematic, look for Relay S6.  In the receive mode, the relay contacts connect the antenna, "ANT," to the receiver, "REC," terminal. A wire could be connected there and run directly to the receiver.  In the case of the Earhart aircraft, where she wanted to select either the wire or the loop antenna, the wire would run first to her cockpit Antenna Selection Switch Assy, and then to the receiver antenna input.  In the transmit mode, when the transmitter is keyed, Relay S6 energizes, connects the antenna to the transmitter output, and puts a ground on the receiver input.

What think my theory?

Bob
***************************************************************

From Ric

Very interesting.  If the 13C had the capability, and the connection from the transmitter to the receiver was internal to the aircraft (so we wouldn't see it in external photos), it would seem most likely that it was set up that way. Let's assume you're correct.

That leaves the mystery of the belly antenna.  It was there. We must assume it had a purpose.  Its lead-in went to where the receiver was mounted under the copilot's seat.  Sense antenna for the DF?  Maybe, but for the first world flight attempt there were two such antennas under the belly.  Why would that be?  Does that mean that there was separate DF radio aboard for the first attempt but not for the second?  And assuming that the belly antenna was the DF sense antenna, what effect might its loss have on the flight?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:09:44 EDT
From:          Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Casting the film

Ric wrote

>This film is starting to look less like Spielberg and more like Quentin
>Tarantino.

I was thinking more of Sam Peckinpah...

Tom

**************************************************************

From Ric

Uhh!  Biff!  "Behind ya Fred!"  Ka-pow, Ka-pow!  Budda-budda-budda.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:25:50 EDT
From:          David Kelly
Subject:      Electra Model 10E

Do you know where i can get my hands on scaled plans, elevations and details (i think you lot know them as blueprints) of the Electra Model 10E?  I am very curious to see how it all went together.

David J Kelly

**************************************************************

From Ric

The only "blueprints" (engineering drawings) we know of are on 13 rolls of microfilm at the NASM Garber Facility archives just outside Washington DC. The microfilm is hard to read and, for ease of photographing, the drawings are sequenced by the size of the drawing rather than by part number, which makes finding any particular drawing an adventure in itself.

What would be most useful would be an illustrated Maintenance and Erection Manual of the sort developed for WWII aircraft.  Unfortunately, those illustrated manuals are a product of the 1939 and later building boom and don't seem to exist for earlier types.  We have a Maintenance Parts Catalog for the Model 10 but it has very few illustrations.  It's just page after page of part numbers and general descriptions (for example:  Major Unit - Main Landing Gear, Assembly Unit - Torque Shaft System, Part Number - 45167-2, Nomenclature - Tube, inboard, right).  But what's the damn thing look like? Does it look anything like the piece of extruded aluminum tubing we found on the island in 1989?  Who knows?  Very frustrating.

Forum member Frank Kuhre did a lot of work on Finch's airplane.  Maybe he can
help us with where they got whatever plans they worked from.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:38:57 EDT
From:          Merrill See
Subject:      Antenna problem?

The aircraft HF antenna appeared to be transmitting fine.  Therefore,  the antenna itself  would not have caused a receive problem. Perhaps  T/R antenna relay or reciever failure,  Operator error, daybreak shifting ionosphere, . . . perhapses  don't count.

The weak spots were radio tubes,  fuses,  and the mechanical tuning controls associated with remote control heads. A simple poorly fastened transmitter frequency selector knob or  VFO receiver tuning control knob fastened on the flexible cables to the  main unit is all it took. "For want of a nail"

Debilitating  Panic over  equipment failure would not be inexcuseable.

There's a heck of a lot of water out there.

Merrill T. See

***************************************************************

From Ric

I've never bought the debilitating panic argument, understandable as it may have been.  Those who heard her said that AE sounded very calm right up to the 08:43 final transmission when she began to sound hurried and anxious, but not panicky.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:44:12 EDT
From:          Tim
Subject:      Re: Casting the film

About the casting, It is a well known fact that Alfred Hitchcock appeared in all of his films.  You should make a cameo.

Also, do you not need an extra 15 year-old kid, you know as a paper boy or something, for the set.  I can sing, I can dance, well not really, but I can fall down effectively--like in those mandatory action scenes.  Do I get a love interest, someone like Jenifer Love Hewitt?  Fun Fun fun

Someone else mentioned a part for Leonardo di Crapo--I can only say no to such madness.

        Tim
**************************************************************

From Ric

I guess we could have paperboy who shouts "Amelia Lost!  Read all about it!"

Everybody wants me to fix them up with a love interest.  I guess that's one way we could fund the project.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:29:07 EDT
From:          Deb Johnson
Subject:      New to the forum

I am new to the Earhart Forum and am really enjoying reading the posts from all of you (except maybe the ping pong ball theories which have me totally confused).

After having the opportunity to portray Amelia in a one-act play a couple of years ago, I became fascinated by this amazing woman and intrigued by her disappearance.  My knowledge of the facts surrounding the events are sketchy, at best, but I, too, would like to have this mystery solved.

Question:  if a skull was among the bones found, couldn't a dental record comparison be done and, if not, why?  I apologize in advance if my questions seem remedial -- I'm new to all this.

With regards to a movie:  Since I have already had experience portraying Amelia, how about an unknown like me for the part, hmm? <grin>  Actually, I would have to agree with the Sigourney Weaver vote at this point.  I think Glenn Close would be the best for the role, however, her short stature could prove to be a problem.  Have we established who will direct?  My vote: definitely Steven Spielberg.

I look forward to reading many more interesting (and sometimes humorous) posts.  I hope we can solve the mystery of Amelia's disappearance soon.
                                                                                                        ~DEB JOHNSON~
*************************************************************

From Ric

Welcome aboard Deb!  Don't worry about the ping pong balls.  They're a lot dumber than the film.

The skull that was found in 1940 (We don't have it now.  Just a doctor's description.) had only a few teeth remaining.  We don't have dental records for Noonan, although we think that he once damaged his front teeth in a fall. There is supposedly a dentist in Miami who claims to have some records for Earhart, but we've never seen them.  At this point, there's nothing to compare records to anyway.  Pretty frustrating stuff.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:30:35 EDT
From:          Tom King
Subject:      Methodology

One thing that's occurred to me in reading the posts from people disgruntled with film casting, ping-pong balls, and the like, is that folks should understand that research tends to be like this.  You do what you can, cast your bread on the water, wait for stuff to come back, and while you're doing that you might as well tell jokes and make up songs, because otherwise you just work yourself up into a sweat wondering what the results are going to be. TIGHAR has a lot of irons in the fire; I don't know what we can do to heat 'em up any more than has already been done, and in the meantime.....

LTM
TK
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:41:17 EDT
From:          unknown
Subject:      Casting the film

After seeing the photo on the cover of the latest TRACKS, I couldn't help but notice the uncanny resemblance of Noonan to Mel Gibson.... so I am compelled to submit my revised nominations for....

MEL GIBSON as Fred Noonan
JULIA ROBERTS as Amelia Earhart
LEONARDO DICAPRIO as the Itasca Radio Operator
DICK STRIPPEL as G.P. Putnam
*************************************************************

From Ric

Mel Gibson?  Really?  Mel is about four feet tall, but then again, he played William Wallace in Braveheart.  Wallace was reputed to be well over six feet,but of course, stature was the least of the inaccuracies in that film. But I digress.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:50:44 EDT
From:          Bob Sherman
Subject:      antenna theories

Bob Williams wrote:

> I propose the Earhart aircraft used one HF Antenna, the Vee wire, for both
> receiving and transmitting.

When I mentioned the single antenna some months ago, with a 'change over' relay activated by a contact in the mike button. You (Ric) said that the two units were separate; not a transceiver.  Bob 902 has pointed out that a change over relay was part of the xmitter.  It did not occur to me at the time but  separate units did not prohibit the use of a single ant. with a  c.o. relay.  That of coures does not make it so, in AE's case, but  like the other Bob, all of the (few) planes in the 30's & (many of the) 40's that I was familiar with had a single HF (xmit/rec) ant.

There would not be a 'sense ant' unless it was for an ADF installation. You said that she did have an ADF, but removed it at Miami.  Perhaps only the equip was removed, leaving the 'sense ant.' intact.   If so, what would it be used for .. if anything?  When HF antennas were on the top of the aircraft, sense antenna's were installed on the bottom.  That may well have been the ant. that (may have) been wiped out in the taxi & T.O. at Lae.  If so, her (lack of) HF reception was not related to the bottom ant.

However, it could have been in the change over relay contacts. Could high resistance (dirt/hair/whatever) in the contact connecting the ant. to the receiver been a possibility?  Relay contacts have always been a source of trouble, but I am not sure high resistance is as much of an impediment to HF as it is to other circuits.   RC  941
****************************************************************
From Ric

Are you sure that only an ADF would have a sense antenna?  My understanding was that the sense antenna resolved the 180 degree amibiguity problem but was not necessarily related to the automatic detection of the null.  Earhart had a Radio Compass (ADF) on the airplane from October 1936 until February 1937.  It was removed before the first attempt, and any vestigial belly antenna associated with it would have been wipe out in the Luke Field crash.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:16:21 EDT
From:          Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Ping pong report

Earhart expedition team member Dr. Tommy Love, Col. USAF, reports that 12 ping pong balls have just been taken to 70,000 feet in an Air Force altitude chamber and have returned unscathed (if a tad softer than when they started). I would be too.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:18:21 EDT
From:          Mike Firczuk
Subject:      Re: Parker Pen Arrow Clip Measurement

Sam Ginder wrote:

> I have just measured the Parker Pen arrow clip on the Parker pen my father
> gave me in 1945. The arrow, used to secure the pen in a shirt pocket measures
> 1 and 3/5 inches from top of the arrow to the tip. Hope this helps in
> calibrating the skull fragment measurements.
> Sam Ginder

I have a couple of (more) recent Parker pens, and the clip/arrow measures very close to 1.5 in. in length from tip to feathers (where it bends to attach to the pen at the base of the button.  So this is not the same.  Can Sam double check the dimension?  Are we talking about ball point pens or fountain pens?  (I measured ball point, which, I am guessing is not relevant, but just in case).

LTM
Michael Firczuk
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:35:38 EDT
From:          Bob Williams
Subject:      belly antenna

The 64 dollar question.  What was the belly antenna used for?  I think that it could have been used as a Radio Range antenna at one time, along with that loop antenna.  I would like to know how long it was.  Radio Range antennas were about 16 feet long.  It could have also been used as a sense antenna. They were usually a little shorter than the Range.  Was it ever positively established that she didn't have a DF receiver on board?  Also, I read where she was having trouble getting fixes with her loop.  It either wasn't working at all or not getting a null.  It seems she was always trying to get nulls on high frequencies.  The loop antenna is useless above 1,800 kc.  Is it possible that the belly antenna wasn't being used for anything on that trip?

Regards,

Bob
*************************************************************

From Ric

The belly wire appears to have been just about 20 feet long.  I didn't know that low freq. ranges were in use as early as 1937.

We still don't know for sure whether there was a separate DF radio aboard the plane.  There are several conflicting accounts.

We know of no occasion when AE successfully used her loop to get a fix except during the Oakland/Hawaii crossing when Harry Manning did it for her.  We know that she tried to get a test fix on the Lae station during a check flight on the morning of July 1st, but was unable to get a null.  She decided that the station was too close.

It's hard for me to conceive of Earhart carrying the weight and drag of a useless antenna around the world.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:19:30 EDT
From:          unknown
Subject:      Re: GMT

OK, I understand CUTe time. . . . now educate me...what the heck is BANTU time (cute with an attitude)??????

***************************************************************
From Ric

BANTU time is simply a name for local time invented by a copilot who had TOO MUCH time .
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:21:17 EDT
From:          same unknown
Subject:      Parker Pens

You know why navigators carried Parker Pens don't you. . . .

the arrow showed them which way to go
**************************************************************

From Ric

ouch.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:26:10 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      1930s Ping Pong balls

Ric wrote:

>Vern has established that the balls were cellulose back then.

It was celluloid, not cellulose, and that stuff does burn real good.  The International Table Tennis Federation specs still say:  "Celluloid or similar plastic material."  I'm surprised they're that loose with it... some similar plastics might act just a little differently.  It'll be interesting to see what I can buy today.

>(but it would be neat to know at what altitude a ping pong ball explodes).

We'll find out!
***************************************************************

From Ric

Oops.  Celluloid is made from cellulose, right?  Sort of plastic from plants.

So far, we know they don't let go at 70,000 feet.  We may need to bring in the NASA gang on this one.  Sounds like a Shuttle mission to me.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:35:32 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      More 1930 ping pong balls

It's easy to write cellulose instead of celluloid, the one being clearly derived from the other.  Celluloid is essentially cellulose nitrate, aka "gun cotton." I'll be surprised if I don't find cellulose acetate substituted for celluloid in ping-pong balls.  That's "similar material" and not nearly so flammable.
*************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks for getting me off the hook.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:36:46 EDT
From:          Bob Sherman
Subject:      Radio Range

The first "A-N" Radio Range was of the loop type, installed in NJ ca 1930 +/- a year.  The Adcock type came along ca 1936    200-400kcs.   RC 941
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:39:04 EDT
From:          Amanda Dunham
Subject:      Casting the film

Look, if we're going to do this, we should do it right.  Actors should look the part, or at least fit it.  So here are my suggestions:

AMELIA:  Mia Farrow.  *Very* talented actress and a strong resemblance Amelia.  There's no faking those cheekbones.  Besides, if there are any lost Gilbertese children on the island, she can adopt them.

PUTNAM:  Charles Grodin.  Resembles Putnam.  Since his CNBC show is canceled, he could use the work.  Can't act his way out of a bag of potato chips; however, the tirades can stay the same.  Just substitute "Paul Mantz" for "Howard Stern."

(And lest Howard Stern think we're attacking him by hiring Grodin, the Itasca radio geek should be either Stuttering John or Crackhead Bob.  The bogus post-loss radio signals should come from Captain Janks or Ponce de la Phone.)

NOONAN:  Harrison Ford.  No other reason than this - if he isn't there with his shirt torn open, you won't get my eight bucks.

LOCKHEED MECHANICS:  The two crewmen who load the ping pong balls on board would of course be Captain Kangaroo & Mr. Moose.  The factory technician who first notices the secret spy cameras would naturally be Jim Carrey.

Love to Mother & BaBa Booey
Amanda
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:48:49 EDT
From:          Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: belly antenna

There is a formula which can help to determine the target band of that 20-foot antenna. Long wire type radio antennas are generally constructed in lengths which are basically one-half or one-quarter of the wavelength of the desired frequency (or frequency band if fine antenna tuning is available). Since frequency and wavelength are inversely proportional, the formula looks like this:

Frequency (in Hertz per second) = 300,000,000/Wavelength (in Meters).

Since the antenna was about 20 feet (around 6 meters) in length, and could have been either a quarter-wave or a half-wave antenna, we have two possibilites for target frequency bands. Using the above formula, they are as follows:

If the antenna was a quarter-wave antenna, the target wavelength is 24 meters, making the target frequency 12,500,000 hertz, or 12.5 Mhz in the shortwave band.

If the antenna was a half-wave antenna, the target wavelength is 12 meter, making the target frequency 25,000,000 hertz, or 25.0 Mhz in the shortwave band.


I hope that this is of some help. 
Best Regards to all,
Gene Dangelo, N3XKS (and sometimes movie score composer).
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:07:42 EDT
From:          Pat Johannes
Subject:      Casting the film

Woody Harrelson as Putnam.

Pat Johannes
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:43:37 EDT
From:          Merrill See
Subject:      antennas

Since the aircraft did not carry an International Morse Code  radio operator and the telegraph keys were removed, the only useable HF frequencies in this instance would be 3105,  and 6210 AM voice for the pilot.   These did feed your conical style V antenna mounted above.  (The British Connection,  page 39/40 )

Underside would be the trailing wire  outlet and, .  .  .

Jim Donahue's, The British Connection,  page 153  shows a Z Marker Beacon  T antenna mounted underside.    These horizontally polarized wire antennas were around 75 inches  long tapped off center for impedance match.  When passing over a marker beacon narrow cone of radiated 75mc, (megacycles at that time)  3000 cycle modulated,  the small receiver triggered a Marker Beacon visual indicator lamp on the pilots instrument panel.  He states  "75mhz  was peculiar to the United States at that time, there were no corresponding foreign ones." (pg 46)

Page 39 shows her leaving New Guinea with  what look like two parallel mounted Z type marker beacons  mounted forward and below the pilot's area.

Now graciously leaving antennas, Who was going to supply the marker beacon signals? Page 77  alleges the U.S. Navy left a "cache of aviation gasoline, equipment and supplies"  on Canton Island  between May and June. 1937. (Between the Ford Island crash  and the  second attempt period) What for?

In any event, in my opinion, this certainly adds credence to the Tighar position.

Merrill T. See

***************************************************************

From Ric

It's hard to be tactful when discussing Donahue's book.  The kindest thing I can say is that the man is creative.

What appears on page 153 is a drawing (attributed to conspracy theorist Paul Rafford) of what Donohue says is "The Electra's Secret Marker Beacon Antenna." The sketch resembles half of the belly antenna that was actually on the airplane.  As is easily discernible from any good photo of the airplane taken during the second world flight attempt, the actual antenna runs from the starboard chin pitot mast (as shown inthe sketch) to a mast under the centersection (as shown in the sketch) and continuing aft to a final mast just forward of the cabin door (not shown in the sketch).  There was no "T" antenna.  What Rafford/Donhue shows as the vertical leg of the T is in reality nothing more than the lead in to where the receiver is located.  The sketch on page 39, like so much else in Donahue's book, is a half-truth fantasy.

The photo on page 39 does not show Earhart leaving Lae.  The photo was taken before the Luke Field crash which ended the first attempt.  It shows the side by side belly antennas and the trailing wire deployment mast that were wiped out in the Mach 20, 1937 accident.

As for the "cache of aviation gasoline, equipment and supplies"  supposedly left on Canton Island when USS Avocet visited the island in June of '37 - he provides no documentation for the outrageous allegation.  The British were there too, aboard HMS Wellington, and not at all pleased with the Yanks' invasion of "their" atoll.  It was a major diplomatic incident that generated many telegrams and messages between the ships and their respective bases, and between Washington and Whitehall.  Nowhere is there any mention of Avocet leaving a bunch of aviation supplies on the island.  I expect that the Brits would have gone ballistic had they tried.

I can't imagine why you say that the alleged presence of aviation supplies on Canton "lends credence to the TIGHAR position."
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:53:50 EDT
From:          Bob Sherman
Subject:      Sense antenna

The original Direction Finder (DF Loop), cranked by hand, had the characteristic 'double null'. i.e. the hole in the loop was facing the station, but could not tell if it was in front or behind.  The DF proceedure solved the 180 deg. ambiguity and gave an aprox. time miles to the station; independant of plane speed.

The next improvement was a whip, sometimes a wire, ant. with a circuit that compared the signal strength in the loop & ant. to solve the 180 deg ambiguity.  The first model kept the hand crank feature, but a motorized loop responding to the 'comparator' circuit followed almost immediately, called an ADF, (Auto. Dir. Find.).  For the next 15 years or so a "loop- manual" switch allowed the pilot to operate the motor in case the auto resolution feature failed.  (It was then a motor ' manual DF')  Also included early on was a 'hetrodyne" switch, labeled, Tone, that allowed the steady carrier signal to be heard & used for manual orientation instead of the voice which rose & fell, had many pauses, making nulls difficult to determine.

Building on Bob 902's observation that the use of a single ant. for HF, both xmit and receive was the common practice, I noted that the HF ant. was usually on the top of the aircraft & a sense ant., if there was one, was on the bottom...ergo the loss of the bottom ant. was most unlikely to have any effect on HF xmit or receiving.   Look for some other reason(s) for receiving problems.   RC  941

**************************************************************

From Ric

Can't argue with your logic.  If the belly antenna is a sense antenna, and the lead in goes to a point under the copilot's seat where Amelia says (interview in Karachi) the Western Electric receiver is mounted (which agrees with the Bureau of Air Commerce Inspection report of November 1936), does that mean that the WE 20B receiver was being used for DFing?  There has been a lot of speculation that there may have been a separate DF receiver aboard (usually said to be a Bendix RA-1).  But the sense antenna should go to the DF receiver - right?  And we know that the belly (sense?) antenna goes to where the WE 20 B is located.  Ergo, if the belly antenna is a sense antenna, the WE 20B is the DF receiver.  And that means just one receiver aboard the airplane.  What am I missing?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:13:24 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Label fragment

>I'd really like to get an answer on our can label fragment.  Many have tried
>but no luck so far.

Nothing at all?  No response to the Reminisce article, I presume.

I have only one thought, a very, very slim possibility.  I think I mentioned it some time back, but have just not had the time to follow through.  Too many irons in the fire, I think.  And the hurrier I go, the behinder I get!

Does anyone have access to the Official Gazette in some library with a lot of government publications from way back?  The Gazette lists trademarks registered each week.  There is the very slim chance that the bit of text we see is part of a registered trademark.  Some trademarks are no more than that - just a company name or some such.  With the Gazette published weekly, it's a lot of searching to do assuming one can go back to 1930 -- and earlier, if available.  I suppose there is some possibility it might not have been registered as of 1937, but was registered later, IF it was ever registered at all.

With no more than we have to go on, I think the only search strategy is to leaf through all the pictures of trademarks and hope to spot it.  Then we would have identified the producer, the location and what all they produced.

I understand that, although it might not be a federal registered trademark, it might have been registered at a state level.  Best guesses... California? Gulf coast? And, of course, it might not have been registered at all.

It's a lot of searching and only a very slight chance of identifying the producer.
***************************************************************

From Ric

We got lots of responses from the Reminisce article.  You wouldn't believe how many people have no idea what that label might be from but whose uncle was on Saipan during the war and he heard about some guys who found a briefcase in a bombed-out bunker and it was full of documents about Amelia Earhart and these guys gave the briefcase to this officer who told them never to say nothin' about it and they never saw him or the briefcase again.

If the label is from emergency rations that were aboad the Electra I'd bet they were purchased in California.  With a search like this you have to either spend incredible amounts of time in a general search (such as you describe), or you try to be clever and develop a specific hypothesis and follow it up, find out you're wrong, learn something in the process, develop a new hypothesis, etc., etc, until you nail the damn thing.  The other way is to get lucky.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:27:31 EDT
From:          Michelle Blankenship
Subject:      Casting the film

I finally had to join in the fun.  My suggestions are:

Amelia - Judy Davis, the Australian actress.  I saw a picture of her in a magazine recently, and she really does resemble AE.

Putnam - Kevin Spacey

Noonan - Daniel Day-Lewis

Mantz - I'm torn between Nicholas Cage and John Malkovich.

Michelle Blankenship
TIGHAR Member #?

**************************************************************

From Ric

Good choices Michelle.  Maybe we need a whole series of films with a changing cast - sort of like the James Bond, or Tarzan, (or Godzilla) films.

You're TIGHAR member 2093.

Say kids!  Do you have your TIGHAR member number yet?  All it takes is $45 and the printable membership form you'll find on the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org     Toner cartridge empty?  No problem.  Just pick up the phone and call (302) 994-4410 with your Visa or Mastercard handy.  Ask for Ric (yes, he's a real live person who would be honored to take your call).
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:58:17 EDT
From:          Paul Chattey
Subject:      Re: Label fragment

Are we missing a bet here?  Isn't this area where the industrial archeologists and museum curators work?  Or, at least the ones who specialize in labels?  Believe me there are stranger things to specialize in, I know of one archeologist who has specialized in the production technology of cheese.

Also, since I already live on an island, I nominate myself as the crew of the wrecked Norwich City.

***************************************************************

From Ric

So find us one of these label freaks.  We'll make his/her day.

What's your preference?  Would you like to be the 11 guys who drowned or the 24 guys who made it?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:09:51 EDT
From:          Bob Sherman
Subject:      antennas and frequencies

I'm sure that AE's L-10 was equip. with low freq radio (radio range) & the 75mc. Z recvr. for both the 'cone of silence' and the fan markers often found on range legs to mark a specific position for use in holding and approaches in the US.. Since the rest of the world was slow in using "a-n", & even in the 40's there were more in a few eastern states than the entire rest of the world, the z marker would surely be the first to go when leaving non esentials behind, & probably the low freq radio as well.

If she had DF or ADF, that radio would tune the 200-400 kc range, AND the less expensive 25-100 watt NDB's (non-dir bcn) located at airports & along airways throughout europe.  As has been mentioned, the (aircraft) loop would not be very efficient on7500kc, IF its radio could tune that freq. Ground based loops are designed for many frequencies.  In europe, especialy Switzerland, 'qdm's' (bearings given to pilots by ground loops)  were common.

I suspect that her req. for a count on 7500 was for the purpose of tuning her radio.  Receiving was her problem, ergo correct tuning was of utmost importance, especially since she had probably 'rocked' the tuning dial around 7500 for some time to no avail. A short count is a positive way to get it done. Why she did not switch back to the freq that (prior to her switch) did work, is unfathomable.  It seems that the only time she heard anything was when she was on top of the Itasca.  Perhaps one or more problems with her receiver kept her from hearinect the HF ant. to the receiver after xmsions.  I don't believe her bottom ant was for HF, thus the loss ot it would have no significance.  I don't suppose we will ever know exactly what radio equip and antennas were on board out of Lae.  Even if some pre trip planning came to light, I think her actions at Miami indicated some changes were made.

And I started with an acknowlegement to your coax mesg.  Sorry about that

RC.
***************************************************************

From Ric

>the (aircraft) loop would not be very efficient on 7500kc, IF its radio
>could tune that freq. 

The WE 20B had four bands - 200-400,  550-1500, 1500-4000, 4000-10,000.  So it should have been able to tune 7,500 kc on Band 4.

>I suspect that her req. for a count on 7500 was for the purpose of tuning
>her radio.  Receiving was her problem, ergo correct tuning was of utmost
>importance, especially since she had probably 'rocked' the tuning dial
>around 7500 for some time to no avail. A short count is a positive way
>to get it done. Why she did not switch back to the freq that (prior to her
>switch) did work, is unfathomable.  It seems that the only time she heard
>anything was when she was on top of the Itasca. 

That's not quite what happened, according to the Itasca log.

At 07:42 she says (in voice on 3105), " KHAQQ calling Itasca.  We must be on you but cannot see you, but gas is running low.  Been unable to reach you by radio.  we are flying at 1,000 feet."

Itasca reponds to this at 07:43 by sending a message in code followed by the repeated letter A on 500 kc and 3105 kc but receives no answer.

At 07:50 Itasca says (in voice on 3105), "KHAQQ from Itasca.  Received your message okay.  Please reply with voice."  They then send more As on 3105 until 07:57.

At 07:58 Earhart says (in voice on 3105), "KHAQQ calling Itasca.  We are listening* but cannot hear you.  Go ahead on 7500 with a long count either now or on the scheduled time on half hour**".

*The log says "circling" but it's an obvious erasure and overstrike.  The original entry said "drifting."  We strongly suspect that what she actually said was "listening."  That's what makes sense in the context of the message and the situation.

**Remember, AE is on Greenwich time.  To her, it is now 19:28.  She is asking for the transmission either now or in two minutes.  To the Itasca, on local time,  it sounds like she's willing to wait another half hour.

Itasca can't give her a "long count" on 7500 because Itasca has no voice capability on that frequency.  (Amelia should have known that because that information was included in a message she received in Lae on June 29th.) Itasca responds immediatley by sending the repeated letter A in morse code on 7500 and  then saying "Go ahead" on 3105.

At 08:00 (19:30 for Earhart) AE says (in voice on 3105), "KHAQQ calling Itasca.  We received your signals but unable to get a minimum.  Please take bearing on us and answer on 3105 with voice."  She then sends a long series of dashes on 3105.

The Itasca's series of As on 7500 is the only transmission Earhart seems to have heard.  Why?  What did she do differently at that moment, and then undo (because she didn't hear anything after that either).  My suggestion is that she switched, for the first time in the flight, to the DF loop - heard the As - tried but couldn't get a minumum - then switched back to the other antenna and retuned the receiver to 3105 hoping to hear voice.  If she was really quite close to Howland and had just stayed on the loop she may have heard voice.

Make sense to you?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:16:45 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Cable summary

(Note:  Vern was sent a section of the cable for examination and testing.)

The subject of the coaxial cable (2-3-V-1) has come up again... While we continue to wait to see what Belden may be able to say about the cable, I'll comment on some of the non-radio frequency applications that have been suggested.  This should just about exhaust what I can say about the cable pending possible new information from Belden.

Some aspects of the cable fit the suggestions that it may have been a microphone cable, a headphone cable, or a speaker cable. However, a study of the radio equipment known to have been on the Electra pretty well eliminates all of these possibilities.  For one thing, the Jones Series 101 plugs do not match up. 

Recapping the construction of the cable... I'm inclined to characterize it as a light-duty cable designed for maximize flexibility in a cable of this type.  Of the cables familiar to most of us, it resembles the 72 Ohm cable used to connect antennas, or Cable-TV systems, to our TV sets.  It's about the same diameter.  Internally, it's quite different.

The cable found by TIGHAR has a multi-strand, twisted center conductor.  The inner insulation layer surrounding the center conductor (dielectric) appears to have been natural rubber.  The braided metallic shield is of quite small wires and braided in an open, spaced manner.  This method of braiding makes for a more flexible cable at some sacrifice of electrical shielding effectiveness.  The outer jacket appears to have been synthetic rubber for better oil and chemical resistance than natural rubber would have provided.  As mentioned above, the cable appears to have been designed for flexibility.  It appears not well suited for radio-frequency (RF) applications but would be very adequate for audio applications.  It might be more accurate to characterize it as a "shielded cable" rather than as a "coaxial cable."  We tend to think of coaxial cable as being for RF applications and well shielded, sometimes having a double-layer braided shield to minimize RF leakage.

The TV cable typically has a single, solid center conductor which is extended through the connectors and is actually used as the center contact of the connector.  The inner insulation layer surrounding the center conductor (dielectric) is polyethylene. The metallic shield is braided tightly with virtually no open space between the individual wires.  The outer jacket is vinyl (PVC).  Compared to the cable found by TIGHAR, it's a more sturdy cable.  But it's a less flexible cable than would be desired for the audio-frequency applications suggested above.  However, the TIGHAR cable still does not fit what was on the Electra.

I think we can rule out the possibility that the cable might have been used for a loudspeaker connection.  A speaker would have been useless with the noise level in the cockpit of the Electra. Headphones were, by far, the best choice.

It's not a headphone cable either.  The connectors are not right. The schematic diagram of the Western Electric type 20B and 20BA receivers, the photographs of those receivers, and the photograph of the Bendix RA-1 series receiver all show a connector (jack) for what is now commonly called a "phone plug."  One of the many possible military designations for this plug is a PL-55.  I think that's the Joint Army/Navy (JAN) designation.  Remember the plugs the switchboard operators were plugging in to connect callers in the 1930s?  Remember Lily Tomlin as the switchboard operator? That's the PL-55 kind of plug.  It's a two-conductor plug having, in telephone terminology, a "tip" and a "sleeve" contact. If you have a set of mono headphones for a radio or tape player, that plug is a miniature version of the PL-55 plug.

And it's not a microphone cable either.  Again, the connectors are not right.  Again, the schematic diagrams and the photos of the transmitters show a jack similar that for the headphones.  In this case, it's a jack for a what I believe is called a PL-68 plug.  This is a 3-conductor plug having "tip," "ring" and "sleeve" contacts.  If you have stereo headphones for a radio or tape player, this is a miniature version of the PL-68.  The extra circuit provides for the "push-to-talk switch and energizes a relay to start the dynamoter high-voltage power source, and switch the antenna from the receiver to the transmitter.

The aircraft radio literature of the 1930s indicates that a push- to-talk switch on the microphone was standard practice at the time.  I found one photograph of a microphone with integral cable but with no connector on the other end.  It clearly showed two insulated conductors enclosed in a common braided shield, this being the 3rd conductor to be connected to the "sleeve" of the plug.

So, the TIGHAR cable appears not to be a fit for anything we know to have been on AE's Electra.  I suspect it is of more recent origin, perhaps the Loran station of the mid-1940s.  It's the sort of thing that might have been a "patch cable" connecting two different pieces of equipment.  It may have been part of a test set of some kind.  What appears to be a short piece of "heat- shrink" tubing applied where the cable enters the two connectors seems to date its assembly as later than 1937.  The "remarkably good condition" of the connectors may also indicate that they have not been kicking around on Niku for as long as 60 years.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:29:47 EDT
From:          Sam Ginder
Subject:      Parker Pen clip

re: Mike Friczuk's comments on clip measurement

My Parker is a fountain pen, and even though it's 8 years younger than the one FN had in his pocket I suspect they are the same design. That was a classic Parker design that they probably maintained for sometime. At any rate, we should be able to verufy that with the Parker Pen company. I'll drop them a note to see what they say. Sam Ginder
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:46:43 EDT
From:          Bob Sherman
Subject:      Radio puzzle

>Ergo, if the belly antenna is sense antenna, the WE 20B is the
>DF receiver.  And that means just one receiver aboard the airplane.
>What am I missing?

For one thing a sense ant. went with an ADF, not a plain DF loop.  So, did she have an ADF?  A definitive list of just what radio equip. was on board leaving Lae would help sort things out.  Her trip was one of a kind with both new stuff to try and a strong desire not to take anything that would not likely be needed.  Bottom line is that maybe some usual combinations were used.

We must not hew too strongly to what was the usual case.  RC 941
***************************************************************

From Ric

>A definitive list of just what radio equip. was on board leaving Lae would
>help sort things out

No kidding.  Unfortunately, the last official listing we have for the radio gear aboard the plane is from an inspection dated November 27, 1936.  At that time there was a WE receiver under the copilot's seat, a WE transmitter in the cabin, and a Bendix Radio Compass "rear of copilot's seat in cabin."  This last was the prototype ADF unit invented by Fred Hooven.  The antenna was a globe-shaped thing in a translucent fairing on top of the fuselage amidships. We know that it was removed prior to the first world flight and replaced with the open Bendix loop (we think it's an MN-5) we all know and love.  Hooven was furious at the change and, until the day he died in 1984,  blamed AE's loss on her decision to replace his state-of-the-art Radio Compass with an "older, lighter-weight model of much less capability."

After November of 1936 we have to try to deduce what changes were and were not made based upon photos and various press reports while at the same time dealing with dozens of anecdotal allegations.  Not a job for the faint of heart.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:57:46 EDT
From:          Ron Dawson
Subject:      Casting the film

subplot:
 Actually, Ric is the reincarnation of Fred Noonan, coming back to make sure we find his bones as his spirit will have no rest until they are found. He is not allowed to show us where they are - he can only assist in pointing us inthe right direction. Once his remains are found, then his spirit can depart

- don't know what happens to Ric then.

Ron D> 2126

***********************************************************

From Ric

Uh, thanks Ron.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:59:43 EDT
From:          Bob Williams
Subject:      Antenna Relay

I agree with Bob Sherman's feelings that the reasons for HF Receiver problems could have been caused by "bad" antenna relay contacts.  On an aircraft in the 30's and 40's, it was common to have problems with the "Receive" contacts on the antenna relay due to pitting.  Whenever the transmitter wasn't keyed, which of course was 99.9% of the time, the receive antenna relay contacts were exposed to static discharges off the antenna wire and even lightning strikes. This environment would cause a current to flow through the contacts and very slow pitting would occur.  As this pitting started to build up so would the resistance across the contacts until after a while enough resistance would exist that any signal being received on the antenna wire would be lost through the resistance across the relay contacts.  The result would be that nothing would be heard in the receiver.  This condition could also be intermittent. The only fix would be to open the relay and burnish the contacts clean and smooth.  There were times when, because of a direct lightning strike, the contacts would be welded together.  Problems with the antenna relay cannot be ruled out as a cause of Earhart's receive problems.

Regards,

Bob, #0902
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:01:38 EDT
From:          Tom Robison
Subject:      antenna theoris

Bob (941) Sherman wrote

>However, it could have been in the change over relay contacts. Could
>high resistance (dirt/hair/whatever) in the contact connecting the ant. to
>the receiver been a possibility?  Relay contacts have always been a source
>of trouble, but I am not sure high resistance is as much of an impediment
>to HF as it is to other circuits.

I'm not an expert on aircraft radios and antenna installations, but I have seen a few "coaxial" relays that are used for antenna switching. Assuming for a moment that the simple things in life never change, I can't imagine that a coaxial relay of the 1930s was much different than they are today.

The ones I've seen are completely sealed. There is no way for any external contamination, even humidity, to get in to the contacts. Old, used ones exhibit contact resistance and intermittent action, but I'm talking 5 years old or more. Surely, if there was a coaxial antenna relay on the Electra, it was much newer than that.

I won't completely discount Bob's hypothesis, however, because Murphy's law was as much in effect in 1937 as it is today. The relay could have been built with the contamination built in, or was assembled improperly, or any of a number of defects that don't expose themselves until the worst possible moment.

And I agree with others who expressed the opinion that, whether the reciever and transmitter were separate or combined in a "transceiver", there would very likely have been a relay to switch the antenna 'twixt the receiver and transmitter.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:02:47 EDT
From:          Tom Robison
Subject:      belly antenna

Gene Dangelo wrote:

>If the antenna was a half-wave antenna, the target wavelength is 12
>meter, making the target frequency 25,000,000 hertz, or 25.0 Mhz in the
>shortwave band.

Ah, but if the antenna was 11 meters long, that would put the frequency in the 27 Mhz range.

That's it! AE had a CB radio on board!!

10-4, Good Buddy!!

Tom
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:05:43 EDT
From:          Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Label Fragment

Ric wrote-

>If the label is from emergency rations that were aboad the Electra I'd bet
>they were purchased in California.  With a search like this you have to either
>spend incredible amounts of time in a general search (such as you describe),
>or you try to be clever and develop a specific hypothesis and follow it up,
>find out you're wrong, learn something in the process, develop a new
>hypothesis, etc., etc, until you nail the damn thing.  The other way is to get
>lucky.

Ric, you're overlooking an obvious ploy... a contest. Publish a photo of the can label on the web page, and offer some money, $1000 or so, to the first person who can positively identify it. Call CNN and all the other news networks to announce the contest, so they will advertise it for free.

Sorry, I can't donate the kilobuck, but surely you have some deep-pocket acquaintances who can.

Or, offer the kilobuck as a scholarship to budding history students. First one to find the provenance gets the money.

Better yet, get Steven Spielberg to put up the prize money as a promotion for his blockbuster AE movie!

It can't miss!

Tom
**************************************************************

From Ric

Assuming for the moment that you're serious, we've never found that offering rewards works worth a darn.  The greatest motivation is curiosity.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:07:34 EDT
From:          Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Missing Howland Island

Many of the Form readers may wonder why Amelia and Fred couldn't see Howland Island if, as their radio strength indicated, they were probably within 50 miles of the island at one time.  An island several miles long should be visible 50 miles away from and airplane flying at 10,000 feet or so.

During my time with Pan Am we flew into many Pacific Island such as Guam, Wake, American Samoa, etc.  Although all of these examples except Wake are larger than Howland I can tell you and our readers that there are many times when islands are very difficult to locate visually.  Near the equator the surface warms quickly after sunrise and even over open water clouds form by early to mid morning.  These scattered clouds cast shadows on the water that look a lot like an island.  If you fly above the clouds which are often formed with a base or two to five thousand feet you can easily miss an island that is under one of these clouds.  Horizontal visibility is greatly restricted by the many small clouds that often form forcing the pilot to descend below the clouds to see what is there.  At two to five thousand feet the horizontal visibility is reduced to a few miles and even then it is difficult to tell the difference between a shadow and land.  If there is surf and a beach it is much easier to determine an island from a shadow but at higher tide and no surf the island and a shadow look much the same from a distance.

I can certainly see why Amelia and Fred could have been quite close to Howland and still missed making visual contact.

Dick Pingrey  Tighar 908
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:10:26 EDT
From:          Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Casting the film

I vote for Dabney Coleman for George Putnam.  Can anyone else think of a more "lovable" rascal than Dabney?  Certainly better than Dick Strippel (Sorry, Dick!)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:52:35 EDT
From:          Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Casting the film

Now if we use a "flashback" scenario like "Titanic" did, we also need to find people to play us! So instead of , e.g., Dick Strippel playing someone from 1937, we'll need someone to play Dick Strippel, etc., etc. This opens up the exciting possibilities of who would we want to play OURSELVES!---
Have fun, 
Gene Dangelo  :)
P.S.: I have brown eyes and hair, glasses and a moustache, am 5'7'' tall, and weigh 185 lbs. I have to find who could play ME!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:54:50 EDT
From:          Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: belly antenna

I love it!!  There's one other real possibility that I hadn't considered, one which is actually preferable, but usually impossible on the ground, due to length and height vs. space restrictions. That possibility is that she was actually using a FULL WAVE antenna. If the 20 foot (6 Meter) antenna was a full wavelength, then her target frequency band would have been around 6.25 Mhz (6250 KHz) which may, in fact, be a viable option for any frequencies between, say, 6.0 to 6.5 Mhz.

Gee, if CB had been around then, how much easier this might all have been--she could have asked Itasca to watch her back door! 

Best Wishes to all,  Gene Dangelo :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:20:21 EDT
From:          Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Back to class

Is there any possibility, chance, published record, or even a rumor that some of the post loss messages were recorded in some manner, either by the Navy or perhaps by one of the civilians claiming to have heard her?  Did the Radio station that was broadcasting messages to her record the event?  If so, could these recordings be anyalyzed and matched to known recordings of AE for authenticity?

Short of being there and finding the Electra or the bones, what we need do do is think up new avenues of investigation that can be analyzed in greater depth using modern technologies.

One thing that we have done this with is the wreck photo, with good results. The label is another potential bonanza.  Seems to me that we should use our ever expanding cyber-network to track down the mysterious origins of the photo.  A better, or an original print may yield info we cannot get off the scratchy reproduction we already have.  What do we have to do to get past the road block on the origin of the photo?  The label?  The bones?  etc.

I know that it is fun to plan the movie (can I play the mechanic who installs the faulty automobile radio relay in the Electra so that I can pocket the extra 10 and go to the movies?), but it really is a huge waste of Ric's and everybody else's time.

I for one would like to see the forum stay a little bit more focused and less fanciful, and I would like to suggest that Ric try to keep us on track by periodically reminding us what avenues of investigation need to be followed up upon.  With every new forum subscriber comes the potential that he/she has the key that unlocks a door to progress.  Let's use the creativity of the group to devise new avenues of investigation ad.  If we solve the puzzle, we will have plenty of opportunity to create a Hollywood picture (it won't be a fantasy then) as they will come banging down TIGHAR's door.  By the way my brother is a Hollywood screenwriter......

Recess is over, back to class kids.
Andrew McKenna #1045

*************************************************************

From Ric

I know of no audio recordings of any of the alleged post-loss radio messages. If there were any I'd be surprised if they hadn't turned up before now.  Only the amateurs reported hearing inteligible voice.  The gov't and Pan Am stations reported only weak carrier waves, sometimes dashes, and on one occasion code.

There are, indeed, lots of questions we need to answer that are more important than who gets to play whom in a fantasy film.  They include, but are not limited to:

1.  a positive ID on the cables
2.  a positive ID on the label fragment
3.  comparison of reported skull measurements to photogrametric measurements of AE and Noonan's skulls.
4.  assesment of the reported bone measurements by modern day forensic anthropologists.
5.  determination of what happened to the bones that were once kept at the Suva Central Medical School.
6.  identification of a living relative of Fred Noonan in the female line for DNA comparison if and when we re-locate the bones.
7.  resolution of remaining questions about the wreck photo.
8. thorough search of the archives of the Republic of Kiribati in Tarawa for more documents relating to events on Nikumaroro.
9.  interview of former Niku residents now living in Tarawa.
10.  coordination with Kiribati officials for the Niku IIII expedition scheduled for the fall of 1999.

These last three tasks require a research trip to Tarawa which we're presently hoping to conduct in the fall of this year.  There will be opportunities for member/sponsor participation.  I'll have more details soon.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:21:54 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Can Label

>If the label is from emergency rations that were aboad the Electra I'd bet
>they were purchased in California.  With a search like this you have to either
>spend incredible amounts of time in a general search (such as you describe),
>or you try to be clever and develop a specific hypothesis and follow it up,
>find out you're wrong, learn something in the process, develop a new
>hypothesis, etc., etc, until you nail the damn thing.  The other way is to get
>lucky.

I agree.  Any emergency rations were probably purchased in California. So... One might start with a search for trademark registration in the state of California. Beyond that, If anyone can suggest a specific hypothesis to follow up, I'd sure be most interested to hear it!

I have access to the Official Gazette from 1930 but there is no way to narrow the search that I can see.  Registered trademarks are indexed by company name but that's no help in this case.  If it's a federal registered trademark at all, we have no idea when it might have been registered.  I see no option except to spend an incredible amount of time... and probably NOT get lucky.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:30:48 EDT
From:          Bob Sherman
Subject:      Radio puzzle

Putting the radio traffic together with her radios makes your theory stand out like a gem.  You noted that she heard the 'a's given by the Itasca on 7500kc &  replied that she heard but could not get a minimum (null) .... (I locked in on short count & overlooked her reply.)  Obviously she heard them via the loop, but went back to the regular antenna (probably the top V) to listen for their reply on 3105...which she (continued) not to hear.

If the loop was connected to her 4 band radio, is would likely operate on all four bands.  Even with some inefficiency on the upper bands (e.g. 7500kc)  it should deliver satisfactory signal strength at the relatively short distance between her and the Itasca. Her inability to get a null (in my opinion) was likely caused by her nearness to signal source. That would make for a narrow null, easily missed by too rapid rotation of the loop, and/or or having the volume too high.  Those fine points are learned by experience in using the equipment in various circumstances; something she did not have.

The belly antenna may have been for the ADF you mentiond.  She may have thought the heavy ADF easy & worth while to remove, but the 2 lb. or so antenna not worth the effort.  In any case I do not believe the belly antenna (or loss therof) was a factor in her 'receiving' problem. Bob 902  added to the relay contacts possibility with his examples of how they could become pitted and cause trouble.

RE: Fred Hooven;  He may have engineered the Bendix ADF she had in the beginning but I was under the impression (by personal conversations with Bill  Lear) that he 'invented' the ADF.  Bill said that he screwed up with a  DF once that could have been disastrous; it led him to find a way to solve the 180 ambiguity.  Plastics!   No no, thats another story.  It was the phase difference in the signal as received in a loop compared to a plain wire or whip antenna.  (Note that determining the VOR radial one is on, comes from phase difference)... but I digress... Bottom line; I think you did it!     RC  941
**************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks, but we still have a problem.   The wreck at Luke Field did a very efficient job of removing all the antennas that were on the bell at that time. The belly antenna we see on the airplane during the second world flight attempt was quite purposefully put there during the repairs at Burbank.  What that purpose was is the mystery.  The lead-in goes to where the WE20B was reportedly installed so it's easy to think that the antenna was somehow related to that receiver.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:43:17 EDT
From:          Jack
Subject:      antennas & freq's

Ref. Antennas/Frequencies 6/17/98

I am enjoying the discussion on the radio, antennas, navaids and frequencies but I have not seen any mention of the facilities available at the Howland Is. air strip. Aside from the Itasca for radio comms. what did Howland have to offer? As Bob Sherman indicated, facilities for some of the equipment AE/FN were carrying probably were not installed at Howland Is. but that equipment would again become useful at Hawaii and the west coast. Sure would be nice to know what actually was taken off the a/c at Lae. Also, same msg., the AE  07:42 transmission indicated she was flying at 1000 feet. Visual distance at that altitude on a clear morning would be roughly 38 nautical miles.

Jack, panamman@akos.net
****************************************************************

From Ric

The only radio facilites on Howland were a small transmitter and receiver operated by a ham who was one of the Hawaiian/Chinese laborers who were occupying the island for the Department of the Interior.  He made no attempt to contact Earhart but did provide ship to shore communication for Coast guard Radioman Ciprianni who was manning an experimental high-frequency direction finder on loan from the Navy.  There has been a great deal of nonsense written about this piece of equipment but it does not seem to have at all secret nor does it seem to have been at all useful.

While, technically, on a clear day, you should be able to see 38 nm from 1,000 feet, the practical realities of finding Howland Island reduce that distance considerably.  Best guess seems to be that you have to be within about ten miles to have a shot at picking the island out of the haze and shadows.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:45:31 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Ping pong balls/Titanic

Is this silliness compounded... or what?  For the moment, we have marginally "on topic" ping-pong and movie-casting threads going.  How else could I sneak in a post about the Titanic?

An item not likely to get much mention by the media.  A Swiss-U.S. partnership says it will build a $500 million full-size replica of the Titanic and cross the Atlantic on the 90th anniversary of the sinking -- April 2002.

But the replica will NOT be unsinkable.  Not enough ping pong balls! Well... There will doubtless be some in the game-room, but not enough to keep it afloat.

In route from Southampton, England to New York City, Titanic II will pause in the North Atlantic 560 mi. off Newfoundland where 1,500 passengers died April 15, 1912. Tickets will cost $10,000 to $100,000.  The ship will continue to operate as a cruise ship.

"It will have modern equipment to detect icebergs."  Sonar, I presume. since about nine-tenths of the bulk of an iceberg is below the surface.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:48:19 EDT
From:          Michael Strickland
Subject:      New Lockheed Martin photo collection

I came across the following press release today, and thought it would be of interest to the Forum members....

----------------------------------------

Lockheed Martin Unveils Aerospace Industry's Largest On-Line Photo Collection

The aerospace industry's largest and most significant collection of historic, high technology and high resolution photographic images is now online and ready for use.  This vast and fascinating Lockheed Martin photographic archive is easy to use, fully searchable and free to the news media and general public for use as an informational and educational resource.

The newly created "Digital Photo Collection" features photographs of aviation pioneers such as Glenn L. Martin, Alan and Malcolm Loughhead, Charles Lindbergh, Amelia Earhart and others.  The collection also features current high technology subjects including the F-22 Raptor, the Hubble Space Telescope and VentureStar, the next generation reuseable space launch vehicle.  New material will be added as it becomes available.

Lockheed Martin offers this photo collection as a service to the news media and general public for use as an informational and educational resource.  A number of high resolution (266 @ 5x7) images suitable for publication are also available.  The images are captioned, or have basic background information and an approximate creation date.

    To download the photographs most effectively, PC users will find it helpful to have one of these programs:  Lview Pro v2.0, Paint Shop Pro v5.0 or ACDSee v2.3; for Mac users:  Big Picture v3.7.4, ImageViewer (PPC)
v4.6.1 or iView v3.0.2.  These shareware applications can be downloaded at the Tucows web site:  www.tucows.com.

    All images are copyright Lockheed Martin and are approved for editorial and educational use.  No commercial use is authorized for any image.

SOURCE  Lockheed Martin Corporation

Web site:  http: //www.tucows.com

CONTACT: Eric Schulzinger of Lockheed Martin, 301-897-6632
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:01:55 EDT
From:          Ron Dawson
Subject:      Can label

Have inquired to the Society of Industrial Archeology asking if they can refer us to a specialist in food packaging.

re: Juarez expedition: My partner cancelled due to illness. Am trying to re-schedule.

Ron D. 2126
***************************************************************

From Ric

TIGHAR archeologist Paul Chattey is also approaching the industrial archeology folks on this issue.  You might want to coordinate with him directly at paul_c@juno.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:13:38 EDT
From:          Chester Baird
Subject:      Casting the film

Gene Dangelo wrote:
>
>I have brown eyes and hair, glasses and a moustache, am 5'7''
> tall, and weigh 185 lbs. I have to find who could play ME!

Danny DeVito
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:06:24 EDT
From:          Amanda Dunham
Subject:      Question on AE's health

First let me say that I, for one, really enjoy the film & ping pong ball threads.  They vent steam that builds up while you try and try to convince acquaintances that, no, she was not captured by Japanese/Martians in the Bermuda Triangle and became a dead spy/Tokyo  And if we can't cast our film, then you force us to consider what Amelia's & Fred's CB handles would have been...

Now my question:  That PBS "American Experience" show on Amelia had someone claiming that she was chronically airsick, as well as having frail health in general.  It might have been Doris Rich -- which would answer my question right off!  I gather the sickly Amelia is just counter-myth backlash of the "she-wasn't-really-that-great-a-pilot" school?  Or were their actual *witnesses* to bouts of barfing?  Usually airsickos avoid flying rather than spend six years at it as a hobby and nine years at a career.  I can't imagine someone having that strange a form of bulimia!!! I thought that airsickness was rare enough for her that she'd write about it.  (The journal entry "...fumes made me sick again.  Must be getting a weak stomach..." from "World Flight."  I don't count the Batavian banquet episode -- Indonesian food does that to me, too.)  She did have one bout with pleurisy, and some recurring sinus problems after her pneumonia (caught during the post-WWI epidemic).  I thought that was it.  Any idea what evidence the sickly school of thought is going on???

Love to Mother,
Amanda
***************************************************************

From Ric

Now we have to talk about the the most disingenuous Earhart documentary ever made - The PBS American Experience travesty entitled Courage is the Price.

The writer, producer, director Nancy Porter appears to have gone into the project with an agenda that Earhart was an exhibitionist of limited ability who became the victim of her own, and Putnam's, unlimited ambition.  The film she created to support that image is riddled with factual error and outright fabrication.  Yes, she bought into a lot of Doris Rich's rumor-mongering, but she also grossly distorted new information which was provided by Putnam's family in the belief that public television can be trusted.

Contrary to public perception (primarly promoted by public broadcasting itself), much of what appears on PBS is shoddily researched, shallow, and misleading (just like the rest of televsion).  The PBS Emperor is stark naked.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:12:13 EDT
From:          Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Cable Stuff

Did motor electrical wiring, like ignition wiring or other wiring, get eliminated as a possibility for the unknown cable? I just looked at a Lockheed A-10 and the plug leads looked very similar to TV coax cable, although I don't know the type/year.

blue skies, -jham (2128)

**************************************************************

From Ric

We haven't conclusively eliminated anything yet, although the pronounced paucity of motor vehicles on Niku would seem to argue against that source.

There has been some interesting activity on the cable ID but I'm trying to get a handle on the details.  I'll report as soon as I know something definite.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:13:57 EDT
From:          Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Lockheed Photos

The Lockheed Martin Digital Photo Collection is at the following address:
<http://photos.external.lmco.com/>

There are 12 AE pics. I didn't check for anything else.

blue skies, -jham (2128)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:17:29 EDT
From:          Barbara M.
Subject:      Can Label is not Beechnut

Spoke with the Historian at Beechnut who confirmed:

1-Beechnut did sell canned Bananas at that time but they were in quart jars then

2-The label is not theirs

3-Prior flights of Amelia's were silently underwritten (and provisioned) by Beechnut and not publicized until it was complete

4-He firmly believes this flight was also underwritten (and therefore probably provisioned) by Beechnut with intent to publicize when complete

5-He is still searching for missing records from the then Presiden'ts office (He and G Putnam had become good buddies through an employee of Putnam's who had had his Antartica expedition funded by Beechnut) which might include letters confirming #4

Wish it was better news.........
Barbara M-#2136

***************************************************************

From Ric

Good work Barbara.  Anytime we can eliminate a possible source it puts us one step closer to right source.  Thank you.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:26:35 EDT
From:          Dean Andrea
Subject:      Re: Radio puzzle

If AE heard the dashes with her loop antenna ( which should (?) work with all four bands) and couldn't hear voice on other bands then I would assume she couldn't hear voice because of an antenna problem. If this is correct then is there any other possibilities to explain this other than a damaged/missing belly antenna? Why wouldn't she be able to hear voice with the loop antenna as she did with the morse( I know that morse takes less power and cuts through the airwaves better).
****************************************************
From Ric

As has been pointed out by some knowledgeable forum contributors, there is reason to doubt that the belly antenna was the voice receiving antenna and,even so, you don't need to wreck the whole antenna to disable it.  Just a deteriorated connection will do it.

I suspect that she could have heard voice over the loop but I think that upon failing to get a minimum on the code she immediatley switched back to the inoperative antenna.

Your member number is 2056.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:28:42 EDT
From:          Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Casting the film

A gentle reminder to those opposed to "casting the film":

If you are not interested in the subject, do not open the e-mails.

********************************************************

From Ric

...like you just did.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:53:42 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      6210 reception

At the risk of further complication matters...

From "Log Jam," TIGHAR Tracks, Vol 12, No 2/3:

"Due to the skip characteristics of 6210 Killocycles, Earhart's decision to switch to that frequency effectively shuts off any further reception by Itasca."

Time and again I've read that and not questioned it.  But something keeps bothering me, and I do question it.  Is there solid basis for that statement?  I think Itasca would have been able to hear AE on virtually any frequency.  She was very close... rattling the speaker on 3105 kc about 3/4 hour earlier.  She's circling in the vicinity and still very close.  She heard the Itasca (dit dahs) on 7500 kc, an even higher frequency than the 6210 kc she switched to, and we believe with less than optimal receiving equipment for that frequency (low frequency loop).  If she could hear them on 7500 kc, they should be able to hear her on 6210.  She's close in and a thousand feet up.

I'd be very interested in first-hand experience anyone in the flying business may be able to relate to this kind of situation... Distance over open water, altitude, frequency, etc.  Time of day wouldn't matter. I'm thinking ground-wave, not skip.

Maybe we have some Hams with a lot of experience with signal propagation in the 80 and 40 meter bands.  My own experience is too limited and too long ago.  Propagation at 3105 kc would be much the same as on 80 meters and 6210 would be similar to 40 meters.  7500 kc too should not be greatly different from 40 meters.

***************************************************************

From Ric

No need to apologize for questioning anything we put out.  If we can't defend it, we should change it.

My statements regarding the propagation properties of 6210 Kc are based upon a U.S. Navy document entitled Fleet Communications Memorandum 2RM-37 dated 25 April 1937.  It includes diagrams which detail the performance to be expected from various radio frequencies during daytime and nightime hours.  According to this source, during the day you can expect to receive 6210 just fine from 0 to 40 miles out.  Then from 40 to 120 miles out reception is less predictable and operators can "expect variations."  From 120 miles out to 180 miles it's good again, and beyond that is another area of "expect variations."  This agrees with the experience of former Air Force navigator Tom Gannon (one of the two retired navigators who first approached us with the Gardner Island theory).

If Earhart hit the line of position more than 40 but less than 120 miles from Howland (which, because she didn't see Baker which is 40 miles SE of Howland, seems likley) it would put Itasca in this zone of unreliable reception.

I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this subject.

(This was originally written up in an article entitled "Dead Zone" which appeared in TIGHAR Tracks Vol. 10, No. 2 in 1994.  The Navy memo was found by Randy Jacobson.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:01:44 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Radio Reception

The difficulty of finding a signal with a continuous tuning receiver has been discussed at some length in the past.  I'm wondering how hard the Itasca worked at giving AE a chance to find their signal on 3105 kc -- to get her receiver tuned to the right spot.  I presume we do not have the complete picture in the portions of the Itasca radio log published in "Log Jam."  We do see some indication that the radio operator was dealing with other message traffic.

I would hope that, when it was evident AE was not hearing them, they would have been calling KHAQQ a lot, by voice, with frequent breaks for her to come back if she heard them.  In view of the situation, I don't see how one could not done that.  Do we have any indication that this sort of thing was done?
****************************************************************

From Ric

The Itasca radio log leaves little doubt that the ship was virtually bombarding Earhart with calls on 3105, 7500, and 500 Kc.  If there was a problem it was that they were sometimes transmitting on 3105 at the very moment when Earhart was scheduled to be calling them on that same frequency - effectively blocking her transmissions.  A careful look at the log shows that, with the sole exception of the request for and receipt of a transmission on 7500 at 0800, Earhart stuck faithfully to her announced transmission times of quarter to and quarter past the hour, even when the flight was going to hell in a handbasket.  The coast guard, on the other hand, abandoned all pretense of radio schedules early on.  If somebody panicked on the morning of July 2nd, it wasn't AE.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:53:54 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Sense antenna

I persist in my contention that a sense antenna makes sense with either a manual or an automatic radio direction finding system.  A sense antenna is helpful with a manual system.  A sense antenna is essential to an automatic system -- It can't function without it.

With a manual DF system, the sense antenna resolves the two-null problem. There is only one null and you know it's pointing you toward the transmitter, not away from it.  This assumes proper adjustment of the coupling unit for the particular antenna configuration on the aircraft.

With an automatic (ADF) system the sense antenna along with the loop and coupling unit provide the same ambiguity resolution.  Moreover it provides signal phase information that makes the automatic system possible.  Now one can use a reversible motor to rotate the loop and it will automatically go to the null position, and hold it.  The phase relationship between the signals from the loop and from the nearly omni-directional sense antenna provide the information necessary to know which direction to rotate the loop to maintain
the null.

The loop on AE's Electra was of the manually rotated type but there is no technical reason that a sense antenna could not have been used to resolve the two-null problem. This would require an antenna coupling unit in addition to a receiver.  We do not know whether there was such a coupling unit on the aircraft but it may have been there.  The receiver, and it may well have been the Western Electric receiver, would serve only to provide an audible signal and/or a signal strength meter indication to locate the null position of the loop.  Articles on the Bendix DF loops published in 1937 clearly state that the loops and couplers can be used with any receiver with the appropriate frequency range -- 200 to 1500 kc.  But not 7500 kc!

We can not rule out the possibility of a sense antenna installed on the Electra. A belly antenna such as the one we see could be such a sense antenna.  It would be nearly enough omnidirectional to work -- with proper adjustment of the coupler to get the phase relationships right.  It may seem short for an antenna intended to function in the 200 to 1500 kc range but that would not be a great problem.  I think we have all observed that a relatively short, random length wire works quite well for receiving, for example in the AM broadcast band.  That's part of the frequency region used for radio direction finding.  You may well want to use a broadcast station.

Where would the coupling unit be?  It could well be under the copilot's seat along with the WE receiver.  It could be anywhere reasonably near the loop, the sense antenna lead-in, and the receiver.  In at least one photo we see the armored cable from the loop headed in the direction of the copilot's position.  We don't know how long that cable might be. 

Comment on Bendix DF equipment...

I note a somewhat disturbing comment in a 1937 article on Bendix DFs... "A feature of all Bendix DFs is that, should any component fail, the apparatus becomes inoperative, precluding the possibility of incorrect bearings." I've not been able to find detailed information and circuitry to know just how that was done.  Did it happen in the coupler unit?  It's probably of no consequence since Amelia's DF could not have been expected to work at 7500 kc anyway.
**************************************************************

From Ric

As I understand it, it is Bob Sherman's opinion that a sense antenna is used only with an ADF.  If that is true, and because we know that Earhart did not have an ADF, the belly antenna on the Electra must be something other than a sense antenna.  But what?

However, Vern lists his reasons for believing that a manual DF, such as Earhart had, could well incorporate a sense antenna.  If that is the case, then there would seem to be a high probability that our mysterious belly antenna is DF sense antenna.

I guess the burden of proof falls on Vern to come up with a contemporaneous source (prior to March 1937) which describes a sense antenna used with a manual loop.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:08:06 EDT
From:          Amanda Dunham
Subject:      Naked Emperor

Ric, Thanks for clearing that up.  I kept looking at the screen in disbelief, and looking over at my bookshelves, and looking at the screen in disbelief...

You wrote:

>Contrary to public perception (primarily promoted by public broadcasting
>itself), much of what appears on PBS is shoddily researched, shallow, and
>misleading (just like the rest of television).  The PBS Emperor is stark naked.

Gulp!  Even Ken Burns??? she said in a tiny frightened art historian voice???

Amanda

**************************************************************

From Ric

Yes Amanda.  Even Ken Burns.  Talk to a real Civil War authority sometime.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:09:42 EDT
From:          Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: Casting the film

I quite agree! Researchers of the greatest import have always kept themselves sane by having a little fun, now and then. Creativity is, of course the stuff that not only great art but also great research discoveries is borne of. Taking a moment to inject  some occasional levity won't taint the waters of our cause. Besides, from a straight volume perspective, the far, far vast majority of the forum messages are eminently "on-task" as we educators say. I very much enjoy the occasional chuckles which add a truly human element to our common quest. I agree with Mike, and I really AM a composer as well as a teacher and a researcher. It's good to keep BOTH hemispheres in gear. Anyway, that's my six cents. Thanks for your indulgence.---Dr. Gene Dangelo :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:16:51 EDT
From:          Bob Williams
Subject:      relay problem

From my experience doing Avionics maintenance work on aircraft built from the 40's through the 80's, I found that it was very common to feed antenna lead-ins through the skin of the aircraft at any convenient place.  Just because the lead-in went in "here" didn't mean that the place it was going to was located near "here."  Sometimes the shortest routing of the wire or cable wasn't possible because of other things in the way.  Just because the belly antenna lead-in was fed through the skin near the WE20B doesn't mean it was going to terminate there.

I do not think there was anything wrong with the HF Vee Antenna. It was working just fine on transmit.  If there had been a bad connection it would have shown up on transmit as well as receive.  This problem keeps pointing to the antenna relay.  The transmit contacts were OK but the receive contacts could have been all fouled up from the arcing and sparking the Vee antenna was picking up from the static discharge as the aircraft moved through the atmosphere, or even any near by lightning discharges. The loop didn't go through the antenna relay. She could hear on the loop, but not on the Vee.

Regards,
Bob, #0902

**************************************************************
From Ric

Okay.  That makes sense to me.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:26:53 EDT
From:          Bob Williams
Subject:      The Bottom Line

I find Vern's questions about propagation conditions of interest.  The Navy was very competent in long range HF communications.  In 1937, they didn't have all the answers; but they were good.  Their Fleet Communications Memo 2RM-37 was up to the date information.  But, in 1937, they were experiencing the peak of a solar cycle that was causing a lot of variables in what should have been normal propagation conditions in the ionosphere.

We can get on here and cuss and discuss all the issues regarding the communications systems on the Electra.  But maybe the bottom line on this is that Amelia, and any other pilot of that era, didn't understand radio communications.  They were PILOTS.  Radio was not PILOT FRIENDLY.  Pan American was the knowledgeable airplane operator in the Pacific, and they used Flight Radio Officers to operate the radio communications and radio navigation equipment.  Without them, the flights of those Flyingboats would have been in trouble.  The Radio Officer could have done some radio navigation, but the navigator didn't know beans about communications.  Amelia found that out.  The hard way.

Regards,
Bob, #0902

**************************************************************

From Ric

Little-known Amelia Fact (no extra charge):

AE needed permission from the Bureau of Air Commerce to make her 'round the world flight.  BAC said that they'd only grant permission if she took both an Instrument Flying and a Radio Navigation checkride (they were separate tests in those days).  AE took and barely passed the Instrument ride but she asked that the Radio Nav ride be waived because (get this) the extra time it would put on the engines would mean that they would need to be serviced at a different point in the world flight than had been planned.  The waiver was granted and AE didn't have to demonstrate her prowess at radio navigation.  I guess she didn't realize that there would be another test later.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:36:11 EDT
From:          Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: 6210 reception

This makes me think that that 20-foot long antenna wire must have been a full-wave longwire for the 6210 Khz frequency. It could have also functioned on 3105, since 6210 is the first harmonic of 3105, and the antenna could still resonate at that frequency. This also raises the issue of her proximity to the station with which she was communicating, akin to Vern's message: since the longwire was ripped off presumably on takeoff previously, this would imply that to still receive/transmit on that frequency with the antenna missing, she would need to be REALLY close to the other station, since radio transmission is line-of-sight. Also, if the sun was still out, the "D" and "E" layers of the ionosphere would be too excited by solar activity to bounce the radio waves well, again implying close proximity. To get the idea of how radio behaves on those frequencies, those of you with digital shortwave receivers can tune in to 3105 and 6210 khz during the day, leave it tuned in, and just notice how the frequency behaves over the course of an average summer day. I wonder how many commercial, amateur, and military radio stations logged any unusual signals or even radio propagation conditions over the time period in question.

Food for thought..."73," de N3XKS
(Best regards from Gene Dangelo)   :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:46:02 EDT
From:          Tom Robison
Subject:      Photos

Take a look at the following URL:

http://www.photos.external.lmco.com/dev/4D.acgi$DisplayLR?E/Drive4/PI/LR/PC034/PC034-035.gif

If ya have trouble loading one that long, just go to http://www.photos.external.lmco.com and click on Aviation Legends (or pioneers, I forget now what it said.)

The lady in the photo is, of course, Amelia Earhart. I'm pretty sure the fella with the eyepatch is Wiley Post.

Is the other fella Roscoe Turner??

What a remarkable photograph!

What is the aircraft in the background?

(could that be the Canton engine they're looking at?)

Tom
Ossian, Indiana
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:52:15 EDT
From:          Tom Cook
Subject:      Measurements

Photo #9 shows A/E's Electra under construction, the "lightening holes" in the wing appear to be smaller than the ones in the wreck photo and the ones in the wreck appear to be two panels and the construction looks like one panel??

My measurements & calculations of the wreck photo and picture # 53 in "The Sound  of Wings" indicate an engine cowl opening of approximately 36 inches, on both, how does that compare actual measurements of a 10E cowl?
TC
**************************************************************

From Ric

I haven't looked at the photo yet, but the lightening holes on Model 10 c/n 1052 at the New England Air Museum (Earhart's was c/n 1055) are 10 inches in diameter.  We haven't scaled the holes in the photo.

The cowling opening for the Model 10E is 37 inches by actual measurement. That matches exactly what Jeff Glickman got for the Wreck Photo.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:57:18 EDT
From:          Bob Williams
Subject:      ADF and DF antennas

I agree with Vern that a Sense Antenna can be used with either a ADF or DF receiver.  The only difference between the two is that the DF loop is turned by hand and the ADF is automatically turned by an electric motor that is controlled by electronic circuitry.

The belly antenna is either a Sense or Range antenna.  It couldn't possibly be used for anything else.  It's to short to be used for the HF frequencies, she was using and to long to be used for a Marker antenna.  I can't think of any other system that was used in those days that would fall in that category.

It is interesting though, that in 1940s technology, wire Sense and Range antennas were of the Tee type of construction.  The lead-in was in the exact center.  But in the 30's, they probably hadn't discovered that these antennas worked better feed in the center.

Regards,
Bob, #0902

***************************************************************

From Ric

Again, sounds good.  What I need is contemporaneous documentation.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:37:01 EDT
From:          Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Measurements

Tom Cook wrote:

>Photo #9 shows A/E's Electra under construction, the "lightening
>holes" in the wing appear to be smaller than the ones in the wreck photo and the
>ones in the wreck appear to be two panels and the construction looks
>like one panel??

I've now looked at the photo.  It's one we have in our collection.  Those are not the lightening holes we see in the wreck photo.  Wrong place entirely. The holes visible in the Wreck Photo are behind the inboard leading edge of the wing and are not visible in the Lockheed photo.  The holes you see in the photo are in the upper skin of the wing in the area where the engine will later be installed.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:38:13 EDT
From:          Bob Williams
Subject:      6210

In regard to Gene Dangelo's comments on the 20 foot belly wire.  Check your math.  To use a 20 foot wire as a full wave, one must be operating on 43,000 khz.  A full wave on 6210 khz would be 150.72 feet.  Normally, a 1/2 wave wire would be optimum for HF work.  A  1/2 wave on 6210 khz would be 75.36 feet.

Regards,
Bob,#0902
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:39:39 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Can Label not Beechnut

Barbara:

You found someone who would admit to having canned bananas in the mid-30s! I was beginning to wonder if that "Canned Ripe Bananas" were going to turn out to be another myth! <g>  I've wondered what the market was for canned bananas. Quart jars seem to imply a domestic market.  Use in baking has been suggested. There may have been a problem with bananas in cans, but someone seems to have done it.

In the literature of the 1930s, I've found papers relating to the canning of just about anything you could imagine, but NOT bananas.

Has the Historian possibly mentioned anyone else who also canned bananas?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:07:39 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      6210 reception

It still bothers me that nothing more was heard from AE after she said she would switch to 6210 kc.  At an altitude of 1,000 feet, 40 miles is almost line-of-sight.  Unlike VHF and UHF, HF signals reach considerably beyond line-of sight.  I wouldn't think skip would be a factor in that situation. Even at something like 100 miles, indications are that "variations can be expected" is the worst that happens.  That probably means signal fading due to interference between ground-wave and refracted sky-wave at the receiving location.  But total loss of contact thereafter?

I presume the Itasca did listen for (hunt for) AE on 6210 kc after that last communication from her.  But if she only transmitted on her schedule, opportunities to hear her were limited.  I find the total loss of contact
worrisome.  It seems to suggest that something catastrophic may have happened at that point.  I wish I felt more confidence in some of the post-landing signal claims.

***************************************************************
From Ric

The other category of reception in the Navy memo was "usable", which implies that reception in the "expect variations" areas was not reliable enough to be considered usable.  As I said, the "expect variations" zone for 6210 in daylight hours runs from 40 to 120 miles out.  What I didn't mention is that, according to the memo, 3105 is not "usable" from 60 miles to beyond 200 miles out.

Yes, Itasca continued to try to contact Earhart on 3105, 6210, 500, and 7500 with no success, but at 10:40 in the morning, without advising San Francisco, the ship left its station off Howland Island and steamed northwestward based upon the captain's feeling that the plane must have come down in the water off in that direction.  This action was taken even though he knew that the plane should have had enough fuel to stay aloft until noon.  If our theory is correct, this only increased the distance and decreased the chances of hearing anything from the airplane.

Interestingly, around nightfall that evening, the radio operator at Nauru heard unintelligible voice on 6210 which he said sounded like the voice heard the previous night (known to have been Earhart during the flight) except "without  hum of plane in background."  Nauru is far enough away to be within the expected "usable" range for 6210.

Given the abysmal record of radio communications from the Earhart Electra throughout the world flight, I can't agree that silence from the airplane suggests that anything catastrophic happened at that point.  More like business as usual.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:02:36 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Radio Reception

I don't know why I said I wished I had more confidence in the post-landing signals in my earlier post.  That's the least of many things indicating AE and Fred may have made it to Niku.  Punching keys without brain fully engaged, I suppose.

Sometimes I think we're flogging a dead mule with the radio thing, but I keep wondering about it anyway.  I wonder when AE last heard anything on her radio, particularly on 3105 kc?

At least one of those fictionalized accounts of the flight says something about Fred having trouble getting a time signal to set his chronometers prior to departing Lae. I believe it claims they even delayed a day because of this problem.  Mythology?

If this actually happened, I'm inclined to guess that Fred first tried to get a time signal with the receiver in the Electra.  I assume that's where the chronometers were.  Or did a navigator keep his chronometers with him at all times?  Failing to get a time signal to satisfy him, he might then have turned to other radio facilities to get the chronometers set.

This scenario might suggest the radio receiver on the Electra was already in trouble. But, if suspicious, they would surely have checked to see if they could hear anything at all with the receiver.  My scenario probably doesn't hold up.

The only radio time signals I'm aware of are the WWV signals.  In 1937 the station was in Arlington, Virginia and there was no station on Hawaii.  It would be a bit of a challenge to hear WWV halfway around the world, but not impossible on one of the several frequencies.  I expect there were other stations operated by someone to provide standard frequency and time signals in that part of the world.

It's probably the same book that talks about AE being in contact with the Lae radio operator for some time after departure.  Again, until she switched Frequency!  Maybe the writer couldn't keep events and radio operators straight! <G>  I believe TIGHAR regards that whole tale about AE flying over Nauru and seeing all the lights ablaze as unadulterated mythology.

****************************************************************

From Ric

You're right.  A detour over Nauru would make no sense at all and there is no evidence to suggest that it happened.

Noonan's inability to get accurate time signals while in Lae is, in fact, the primary reason for the flight's delay.  In Chater's report there is no suggestion that he tried to get the signal on the plane's radio.  Lae had an excellent radio facility. On the night of the 1st Fred finally got a shaky time signal from Sydney, then got a good transmission from Adelaide. On the morning of the 2nd he got another good check from signals out of Saigon. Fred's chronometer, which witnesses say he carried with him in his pocket at all times, was found to be three seconds slow.

As for the aircraft radio, Earhart checked it during a test flight on the morning of the 1st and the voice radio worked fine.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:09:06 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Cable Stuff

Jerry Hamilton wrote:

>Did motor electrical wiring, like ignition wiring or other wiring, get
>eliminated as a possibility for the unknown cable? I just looked at a
>Lockheed A-10 and the plug leads looked very similar to TV coax cable,
>although I don't know the type/year.

I doubt the TIGHAR cable fits ignition wiring either.  Again, partly because of the connectors.  I just don't believe the cable is adequate for sparkplug leads.  I could more easily see it as a magneto grounding lead, but I don't really believe that either.  Some other kind of wiring?  Who knows?  One of the troublesome aspects is the use of what appears to be heat-shrink tubing at connector attachments.  I don't think heat-shrink tubing had come into use or was available in the 1930s.  I'm not sure it was even available in 1944 at the time of the Loran installation.

I wonder if Pratt & Whitney could be of any help with the kind of wire/cable used on the engines of the Electra?  I wonder what they used on Linda Finch's engines?  Would that have any relation to what they would have put on an engine in the 1930s?  Are there aircraft of that vintage with original wiring on the engines anywhere to be seen?  It should be possible to resolve this particular question.

I anxiously await what Ric has to tell us about the latest activity on identifying the cable!

***************************************************************

From Ric

Ric anxiously awaits that news also.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:10:18 EDT
From:          Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: 6210

I stand corrected. The formula as listed in the thirteenth edition of "The Radio Amateur's Handbook" by A. Frederick Collins, (p.290) reads as follows for anyone wishing to calculate any such lengths in the future:

Frequency (in Hertz per second)   =    3 x 10 to the eighth power/Wavelength in meters

Thank goodness that Music teachers don't count beats in groups of ten to the eighth power! (Heck, the 40-meter Ham band starts at 7000 KHz, and I've known that for 25 years. Must be a middle age crisis or something!) Sorry about that, folks, and thanks to Bob for setting that straight!

Your obedient servant, the absent-minded professor
Gene Dangelo :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:12:49 EDT
From:          A. E. Stewart
Subject:      FBI FOIA puts Earhart files online

I don't think this was posted before, so just in case... At the FBI's website there are now online copies in .pdf form of case files on Amelia Earhart.

As listed on their site:

Amelia Earhart was an aviatrix who disappeared July 1937 in the Pacific Ocean while on a highly publicized world flight attempt. The FBI never investigated her disappearance. The records generally consist of correspondence from individuals speculating about her fate. In 1990, the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery submitted a navigator's bookcase to the FBI Laboratory for examination. This item was suspected of having been part of Ms. Earhart's lost aircraft. Various technical analyses were conducted and nothing was found which would disqualify the artifact as having come from the Earhart aircraft.

You can check it out at http://www.fbi.gov/foipa/hisfigs.htm#earhart

You'll need Adobe Acrobat reader to read .pdf files.

AE Stewart

***************************************************************

From Ric

And since then we have identified the bookcase as having come from a B-24.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:17:58 EDT
From:          Jack
Subject:      Trailing wire

1st, I am new and ask forgiveness of any and all protocol violations. I recall reading somewhere that A. E. had a 250 foot trailing antenna for voice communications. However, she found the reeling in and reeling out of the antenna to be bothersome, and had it removed at the airport in Miami Fla. If this is true, it would seem that this would have an effect on voice communications. As I recall the source of this information was the Miami newspaper of the "day". I think it was "the Miami News Herald", but I am not sure of that. Someone let me know if I have "stepped on any toes". I am a long time fan of A. E. and am enjoying the information and discussions on this forum a great deal. Thanks.
***************************************************************

From Ric

Contrary to legend, the infamous trailing wire seems to have been eliminated during the repairs at Burbank rather than in Miami.  Photos of the airplane taken prior to its departure from California show that the belly mast from which the trailing wire had been deployed during the first world flight attempt is gone.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:10:10 EDT
From:          Barb Wiley
Subject:      Footnote from Barb Wiley

Ric,  It behooves me how you so casually brush off some information and cling to your own?  Barbara

**************************************************************

From Ric

Barbara,

If I struggled for a hundred years I could not come up with a single sentence that so perfectly expresses the difference between TIGHAR's methods and your own.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:06:35 EDT
From:          Ron Dawson
Subject:      anecdotal information

I'm hesitant to too quickly dismiss hearsay - case in point - several years ago, I got anecdotal info third hand about "old streetcars on a farm". Since I was deep into researching the history of El Paso streetcars - I followed that thread back through five different people and two years later, found five streetcars built  in 1927 on a farm in southwest New Mexico. You could have been standing next to them and not realized they were trolleys. The tops and ends had been cut off , truck axles put underneath and they became cotton trailers. Only a trolley buff would have recognized them. The points are: follow each lead as far as you can and sometimes you have to look for the sum of the parts, not the whole.

  Yeah, I know there are no trolleys on Niku. They were converted to buses.

Ron D. 2126
****************************************************************

From Ric

Don't get me wrong.  Anecdotal information is not bad to have.  It's great to have.  It gives you a starting place.  In 1985 we located the proverbial "barn full of old airplanes" by tracking rumors and anecdotes, sifting out the garbage, distilling it down to a reasonable hypothesis, and testing it in the field (just as you did with the trolleys).  Anecdotes can be absolutely true, partly true, or total horse manure.  You just never know until you check them out. Some can be dismissed quickly with minimal research.  Others take years of work.  But it all starts with a good story.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:54:37 EDT
From:          Bob Williams
Subject:      Radio Propagation

Vern has been looking for information as to propagation of radio signals on 6210 kc. to and from Howland Island.  With the aircraft at 1,000 feet, the line of sight would have been 40 miles.  From what I have been able to dig out of reference books, there would have been a ground wave and a space wave (line of sight) signals, that would have, between the two of them, made communications possible on all of her frequencies, 3105; 6210; and 7500 kc.. The ground wave would have been good to 50 miles at 3105 kc., but the distance would have shortened rapidly as the frequency went up to 6210 and 7500.  It looks like this rules out the ground wave for 6210 and 7500.  But, the space wave (line of sight), would have been good on any of her frequencies if the aircraft were 40 miles or less from Howland.  From this information, if she were in range to be heard on 7500, she should also have been heard on 6210.

I am curious as to the length of the Vee antenna.  I think that it might have been too short, on all of her frequencies, to work efficiently with the transmitter she was using.  Do you have any ball park measurements?

Regards,
Bob, #0902
**************************************************************

From Ric

>(line of sight) would have been good on any of her frequencies if the
>aircraft were 40 miles or less from Howland.

That makes sense.  If, at 08:43 when she changed to 6210, she was 40 miles southeast of Howland on the LOP Itasca should not have lost contact and she should have seen Baker Island. If we take her at her word that she was on the line, then she was either more than 40 miles northwest or more than 40 miles southeast of Howland at that time.

>if she were in range to be heard on 7500, she should also have been heard on
>6210

Remember, she wasn't transmitting on 7500.  At 08:00 she heard Itasca on 7500 and they were hearing her on 3105.  Three quarters of an hour later, she switched to 6210 and they stopped hearing her.  In 45 minutes that airplane can travel almost a hundred miles, but it's probably not just truckin' along in one direction.

This is a very complex situation.  The information available indicates that the airplane arrives at the LOP sometime shortly before 07:42 and spends the next hour searching for Howland.  At 07:42, 07:58, 08:00, and 08:43 Itasca hears her great on 3105 and at 08:00 she hears Itasca on 7500, which suggests that she is somewhere within ballpark 40 miles at those times.   At 08:43 she says she is on the line and that she is  changing to 6210.  Itasca immediately loses her, suggesting that she is somewhere in the band between 40 and 60 miles out where 3105 should work but 6210 won't.  It seems safe to assume that, having no luck on 6210, she went back to 3105, but Itasca didn't hear her again.  Why?  If she was running southeast on the LOP (the direction which would virtually guarantee landfall) she could well have been beyond 60 miles away when she went back to 3105.  She's now in a band of distance from Howland where neither 6210 nor 3105 will work.  Nothing to do but keep flying and watch for land.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:20:54 EDT
From:          Bob Williams
Subject:      Vee antenna

I am curious as to the length of the Vee antenna.  I think that it might have been too short, on all of her frequencies, to work efficiently with the transmitter she was using.  Do you have any ball park measurements?

**************************************************************

From Ric

Wheels within wheels.  The length of the dorsal V antenna was altered during the repairs which followed the Luke Field crash.  According to calculations (which I will forward to you by snailmail) the length of the antenna was increased from 46 feet to 54.51 feet.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:57:44 EDT
From:          Bob Williams
Subject:      Line of sight

I ran across the formula for determining line of sight vs height above ground. It gives Amelia another 5 miles to play with.  The formula is:  Distance (in miles) = 1.41 times the square root of height in feet.  In our case it would be:

1.41 times the square root of 1,000 = 1.41 times 31.622776 = 44.588 miles

regards,
Bob, #0902

************************************************************

From Ric

And the practical experience of people who have done it indicates that from 1,000 feet on a typical Central Pacific morning you have to be within 12 miles to see Howland.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:14:04 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Sense antenna

>I guess the burden of proof falls on Vern to come up with a contemporaneous
>source (prior to March 1937) which describes a sense antenna used with a
>manual loop.

The patent office uses a phrase: "... self evident to one skilled in the art." <g> I also respect the position of the historian who requires hard evidence!

Dialog:  The artisan has been holding forth...

Artisan:  "... With the loop in one orientation, the signals from it and the sense antenna are in phase and additive.  Rotate the loop 180 degrees and the signals are now out of phase and subtractive.  You have a null.  It matters not whether you rotate the loop by hand, or with some kind of hydraulic actuator, or with an electric motor.  You have the advantage of a single null and avoid the ambiguity of the simple loop which has two null positions.  If you wish, you can use a phase comparator circuit and cause a bi-directional motor to automatically seek the null position or, for that matter, the maximum.  You might call that an "Automatic Direction Finder!"

Historian:  "That's all well and good but was it ever done?  Show me hard evidence that a sense antenna was ever used with a manual loop in an aircraft installation.  More to the point, was such an installation on Amelia Earhart's Electra at the time of the second attempt to fly around the world in 1937?

The artisan goes scurrying off to the library to pore through more musty tomes...

We'll probably never know whether or not that antenna on the underside of AE's Electra was used as a sense antenna unless we find the plane and are able to determine whether there was an antenna coupler unit of the kind used with a DF installed.  I think that's the only thing that would be conclusive.

At the moment, I have in hand only semi-hard evidence... A magazine article. Unfortunately, the page I copied does not show the date.  It's from Aero Digest and I'm pretty sure it's from 1937.  I'll have to drag it out again.

Excerpts from article:

Bendix aircraft radio direction finders have recently been made available commercially in 4 models -- MN=1, MN-3, MN-5 and MN-7.  These are almost identical except for the method of loop rotation.
(Note by Vern - The TIGHAR radio study documentation (page 4-29) shows the Bendix    MN-5 loop and the loop coupler unit.  I think the reference is to the same article in Aero Digest, 1937. AE is shown with ?? examining the equipment.)

Bendix DFs are designed to operate in conjunction with a Bendix Type RA1 receiver, but will also give accurate and dependable bearings when used with any standard radio receiver covering the desired frequency range.
(Note by Vern - It could have been used with the Western Electric receiver which does cover the frequency range in which the DF is intended to operate.)

Each DF consists of a loop unit for reception of signals, a coupling unit for comparing characteristics of the signal received by the loop with those received by the fixed antenna, and the necessary cables and connections. The electrical coupling unit automatically resolves the 180 degree ambiguity of the loop, permitting unilateral bearings.
(Note by Vern - Be careful with this one.  The word "automatically" does appear.)

Action of a vertical antenna is non-directional, and its polar diagram would show that the voltage induced by the received signal is of the same amplitude and phase for all bearings throughout the compass.  The usual fixed or trailing aircraft antennas, though slightly directional, have an ample vertical component to produce a substantially circular polar diagram. 
(Note by Vern - I include this one only to support the idea that the underside antenna could have served as a sense antenna.)

In the Type MN-1, the loop is mounted directly on the coupling unit, with the manual rotation control at its base.  Type MN-3 provides for external mounting of the loop directly above the coupling unit on an extension shaft. Also manually controlled, the loop of Type MN-5 can be mounted at a point not immediately above the coupling unit, with the rotation controls on the loop shaft at the cabin roof.  In the Type MN-7, the loop is remotely controlled by a handwheel operating a hydraulic pressure system which provides a smooth and positive means of rotation and control over distances up to 25 feet.
(Note by Vern - The MN-5 has that armored cable to connect it to the coupler unit so the coupler does not have to be right under the loop.  Notice that all of these are manual loop DF systems.  In each case the loop is rotated by hand, directly or indirectly.  And each involves a coupling unit to resolve the 180 degree ambiguity.  That's all it does.  It's not an ADF.)

Closing comments by Vern - I believe there are photos of the cabin interior that show the handwheel of the Type MN-5 loop on the roof above the pilot's position.  The coupling unit is not in sight there as it would be for a Type MN-3 installation.  We don't know where the coupling unit was located, or if it was, in fact, there.  But it may have been there.  Inconclusive.

The article also discusses an autosync system to provide a convenient visual indication of loop orientation.  The autosync indicator had a rotatable mask that could be adjusted and clamped to avoid misreading the bearing by 180 degrees. The autosync is just a "follower" sort of indicator of loop position.  It's an aid and convenience -- avoids having to read the overhead scale associated with the handwheel.  It's still not an ADF.

My impression is that Bendix was still one step short of an ADF system in 1937.  The coupling unit did the job of combining the signals to resolve the 180 degree ambiguity while the radio receiver provided amplification, frequency selectivity and demodulation of the signal so it could be heard with headphones.  The operator could then listen for the null while rotating the loop.  Only the amplitude of the signal from the coupling unit was used. The signals had now been combined and contained no phase information, only amplitude information -- loudness in the 'phones.

The receiver also provided a beat-frequency oscillator (BFO) to produce an audible tone when receiving a CW signal. I'm assuming that's what the "CW ON-OFF" switch we see in photos of the receivers is for -- turn BFO on or off.

The next step would be to utilize the signal phase information available at the coupling unit to control a motor that could rotate the loop in either direction.  Now a phase-comparator circuit could be used to cause the motor to drive the loop to the null position, and to keep it there no matter how the aircraft might turn.

Behold!  Now we have an ADF!

***************************************************************

From Ric

It has been alleged by some that the schematic for the WE 20B indicates that it could not be used for DFing.  Not true?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:44:39 EDT
From:          Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Even Ken Burns

Ric and Amanda,

Let's add Ken Burns' presentation on the Oregon Trail to the list of PBS specials that has its share of errors.  I am not an expert but know a large number of very good Oregon Trail historians that will tell you there are many errors in that PBS special.  He appears to have done considerably better with Lewis and Clark.  Perhaps the critics were starting to get to him by then.

Just because it is on PBS doesn't mean it is factual.  Sorry Amanda.

Dick Pingrey  908C
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:59:39 EDT
From:          Ron Dawson
Subject:      fuel systems

Being relatively ignorant of aircraft fuel systems in general and AE's modified 10E in particular, could someone enlighten me on these points.

 (From Ric:   I'll provide what answers I can in parentheses.  My answers are based upon Lockheed Drawing 42681 which is a schematic of the fuel system for NR16020 dated March 12, 1937.)

Did she have fuel transfer ability between the various tanks?

(No.  Not that I can see.)

Did all tanks feed both engines?

(Yes, that's the way it looks to me.)

Is there a certain % on the bottom of the tank you can't get out?

(Sure.  But in Earhart's case she had a "stripping valve" and wobble pump added on 3/10/37 presumably to minimize unusable fuel.  Just what portion remained unusable is unknown.)

Running out of fuel, would she probably have feathered one engine to conserve fuel?

(No.)

If the starboard engine was shut down, would she have had use of emergency radio?

(We know of no emergency radio aboard the airplane.  She can still operate the radio with the engines shut down because the radio runs off the battery.  She needs the right engine operable to recharge the battery.)

What would have been the approximate glide distance unpowered, say from 1,000 ft?

(Gut feeling, but pure guess - couple of miles.)

Ron D. 2126
***************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:03:42 EDT
From:          Jack
Subject:      photos

Ref. Tom Robinsons Photos received 6/20/98

Tom mentions a photo of Wiley Post, AE and Roscoe Turner in a photo with what looked like the Canton engine in the background. I was unable to load the address he supplied so I could view the photos but for the record Wiley Post and Will Rogers were killed at Point Barrow in 1935. That would make the photo prior to AE's flight.

Their bodies were picked up by Alaska Airways(Pan Am was parent company) by a Lockheed Electra L10B. The Flight Radio Officer(FRO) was Bob Gleason who is still alive and I talk with quite often.

This guy Bob Gleason has done it all including being icebound in the Siberian Arctic and survived of course ha ha.

Jack, panamman@akos.net
***************************************************************

From Ric

I guess I must be more confused than ususal.  We don't know what the Canton engine looked like except from Bruce's recollection that it was a very badly beat-up R1340.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:15:58 EDT
From:          Tom King
Subject:      Re: Can Label is not Beechnut

Barbara --

Did the historian at Beechnut say why he was so sure the label was not theirs? Because of its appearance, or the wording, or what?  It would be helpful to know.

Ric --

Never content to take anybody's word for something, I soaked labels off a can and a bottle today and checked, and you're right; the can label has striations and the bottle label doesn't.  Which led me to wonder: is there enough variation in striation spacing among cans to allow THAT to be used to track down a source?  Probably not, but if there's a can-do member of the Forum out there....

One more caution:  we're kind of drifting from hypothesis to assumed fact about the can (or whatever) having been full of bananas.  Maybe what we're dealing with is, say, something from "Tropical Growers Produce Company," with a generic tropical scene label featuring the banana leaves that are pretty ubiquitous in those climes where only mad dogs and Englishmen (and TIGHARs) go out in the midday sun.  The can (sic) could have held most anything.

LTM
TKing
****************************************************************

From Ric

You're right of course.   The banana thing is only a hypothesis which helps focus the search for a matching label.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:25:33 EDT
From:          Barbara M.
Subject:      Canned bananas

Yes, I do believe they were used for baking. Wish I had thought to ask the historian if he had any records of the competition. I will call him to see if he has any ideas!

Barbara M
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:27:18 EDT
From:          Kenton Spading
Subject:      KGMB Frequency

I have been off line for a while.     If the following question has been answered I apologize.

On May 15, 1998 Vern asked:

>Do we know any more about the KGMB broadcast than I've seen here on the
>forum in the past couple of months?  What frequency did they broadcast on?
>I think it is not uncommon for a station to broadcast on more than one
>frequency and, at least part of the time, to broadcast the same programming
>-- low-frequency for the local audience and "shortwave" to a more distant
>audience by signal bounce.  I think any other frequencies would use
>different "call letters"  but that may just not have been brought out in the
>article.

I conducted the AM radio test near Niku during Niku III at the request of Frank Lombardo.     Frank and I published a report on our findings.    If anyone is interested I would be happy to send you a copy. The report discusses the history of KGMB and the Hawaiian radio stations I was able to hear from the area near Niku in 1997.

To answer Vern's question: KGMB used a frequency of 1320 Kc,  1000 Watts in 1937.   Their frequency and wattage changed in later years.

LTM
Kenton Spading
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:45:12 EDT
From:          Ken Knapp
Subject:      radio propagation

I have some thoughts on radio propagation to share..

I'm a ham radio operator living in northeast Pennsylvania. Here are some characteristics I've noted over the years.

The 80 meter band, 3500-4000 khz, seems to perform best for any distance at night and early morning. Once daylight hits, range is pretty much limited to ground wave, the range of which depends on solar activity. Night and early morning, the range is usually several hundred miles. Daytime might be only 25-50 miles.

The 40 meter band, 7000-7300khz, is good for a few hundred miles to perhaps a thousand miles from late morning into the night. Again, it depends on solar activity. I've never really tested line of sight or ground wave on this band, as I've always resorted to 80 meters for that.

Now there are a few things I should mention. The ranges I've stated above are pretty general and in the context of what you can pretty reliably expect. I KNOW people have far exceeded these ranges under the right conditions with good antenna systems. Another big factor is the 11 year sunspot cycle and solar activity. For instance, if solar activity was really high, it is possible that ground wave communications would be next to impossible on the frequencies that AE used. Has anyone ever looked into that aspect?

Ken Knapp
**************************************************************

From Ric

Well, your experience pretty well matches what the 1937 Navy memo says and what we suspect was going on with Earhart and the Itasca.  As for solar activity, 1937 was a peak year.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:55:23 EDT
From:          Jim Tierney
Subject:      Re: footnote from Barbara Wiley

>Ric,  It behooves me how you so casually brush off some information and
>cling to your own?  Barbara

That's a strange use of behooves-----
Am I missing something?????????
I better go look it up....
LTM
Jim Tierney

**************************************************************

From Ric

behooves (n, plural) - the feet of bees.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:40:06 EDT
From:          Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Noonan Project adventures

Despite their recent silence on the forum, the Noonan Project team has been busy frustrating themselves trying to track down the roots and any possible living relatives of the elusive Captain Noonan.

Ron Dawson has been trying to determine if there are existing records of Fred's divorce in Juarez, Mexico.  Her'e his latest report entitled "Nada in Juarez"

**************************
Ric:

Came up emptyhanded in Juarez, but still not convinced the file is not there. We were shuffled around from one office to another, one building to another all day long. Typical conversation went like this -

Us: "we were told you could help us find these documents"
Them: "Did you go to the office A at building B?"
Us: "Yes, they don't have what we want"
Them: "I know that, but they have to stamp your request form as 'denied' before we can look here"

(second trip to the same office, two hours later)

Us: "here's our request with the denied stamp"
Them: "we don't have those documents here, you have to go to another building"
Us: "why didn't you tell us that when we were first here?"
Them: "you didn't ask that question". This type of crap went on all day long.

Jeez - I'll never complain about U.S. Govt. bureaucracy again. They kept asking why we wanted it and seemed skeptical when we said it was purely for historical research. One asked if any inheritance was involved. I may try to find someone who has political "juice" in Juarez, but as of now, seems to be a dead-end.

***************************************************************

Don Jordan has discovered what could be a veritable treasure-trove of Noonan's letters which have been closely held by his widow's family all these years. He has succeeded in obtaining two but the family is simply not interested in releasing the rest of them.  Don and I have tried our best, but to no avail.

The two letters we do have quite interesting.  One is from Fred to his wife and was written in Puerto Rico on the morning of June 2nd after the completion of the Miami to San Juan leg of the world flight the previous day. Fred's account of the trip matches quite well with AE's account as published in Last Flight.

The second letter was written in Dakar, Senegal, French West Africa on June 9th after the crossing of the South Atlantic.  Fred is writing to someone named Eugene Pallette whose address is the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood, California.  (Someone has suggested that Pallette was a minor film star. Anybody able to verify that?)  Fred says, "Having trouble sending messages such as I promised you but am doing the best I can.  Facilities are not always available, and therefore I am sending one message when possible, naming stop made since the previous message.  Tried to get one off last night but some trouble developed at the cable station.  As I had sent the cablegram to the cable office by messenger, I have not yet ascertained the cause of the delay in transmission - but will do so later today."

This seems a bit odd.  Why is Fred sending progress reports to this guy? Sounds like more than a casual "I'll drop you a post card once in a while." Has he cut a media deal of his own, separate from Amelia's arrangement with the Herald Trib? (I'm just waiting for someone to suggest that Gene Pallette was a Nazi agent.)

Fred then goes on to say that so far they have had a "pleasant and uneventful trip."  He does mention that for ten of the thirteen hours of the Atlantic crossing they were flying on instruments and the radio was "out of order." After a few other comments about the trip he ends the letter with, "Looking forward to a highball together in the not too distant future, I am, sincerely, Fred Noonan"

This letter raises several questions, not the least of which is how the heck it ended up in Fred's widow's possession.  Sure wish we could get our hands on the rest of the collection.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:06:16 EDT
From:          Jack
Subject:      line of sight

Ref. Bob William's formula for calculating the radio horizon,  you can substitute 1.22 for 1.41 to obtain the distance in nautical miles. Bob's formula covers statute miles.

regards,
Jack, 2157
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:11:13 EDT
From:          Bob Williams
Subject:      Radio Propagation Correction

I have a correction, to the terminology, I used in Radio Propagation.  This would only be of interest to the purists.  In the email I referred to ground wave and space wave.  What I should have indicated, instead of ground wave, was surface wave.

Surface Wave + Space Wave = Ground Wave

Now children, aren't we having fun?

Regards,
Bob, #0902
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:23:43 EDT
From:          Merrill See
Subject:      Barbara Wiley

Your June 23rd comment to Gillespie: 

>Ric,  It behooves me how you so
>casually brush off some information and cling to your own?  Barbara

Well Spoken, Barbara.  I'm looking forward to his Amelia Earhart research autobiography. I'll bet this gets censored. I've got your phone number somewhere.

Merrill T. See ,  sobriquet: Dr Basil VonStompenheimer, PHD

*************************************************************

From Ric

Notice to the forum:  Mr. See has sent me the message reproduced below.  I did not post his comments because they are off-topic but I do so now in response to his charges of censorship.  I have also honored his request and removed him from the forum.

*******************
From Merrill T. See

Just a re-reminder.  The mental capacity required for ping pong balls and shoe heels  does not intrigue me. Nor does censoring  pages critical of your comments.  Please delete  my name from your  52 IQ censored forum.  It takes up memory space. Merrill T. See

----------

From: Merrill T. See
Subject: Z Marker Beacons
Date: Thursday, June 18, 1998 10:26 AM

Re our 06/16/98  exchange:

It appears my  e-mail comments were  not reproduced well.  I accept responsibility. Sorry.

I deciphered you stating:

1. "There was no 'T' antenna."
2. "What Rafford/Donhue shows as the vertical leg of the T is in reality nothing more than the lead in to where the receiver is located.  The sketch  on page 39, like so much else  in Donahue's book, is a half-truth fantasy."
3. "like so much else  in Donahue's book, is a half-truth fantasy."
4. "conspracy theorist Paul Rafford"
 5. "It's hard to be tactful when discussing Donahue's book.  The kindest thing I can say is that the man is creative."

I quoted page 39 and 40 which should have been  pages 38 and 39. You quoted Rafford's sketch to be on page 39 when in reality it was on page 153.

I will briefly reply to your comments:

1 and 2: "There was no 'T' antenna."
 Careful inspection of page 39, just to the right of the inscription "Amelia Earhart 6252" you will see the horizontal wire antenna and "T" connection. The photo measures  5./1 cm between masts with a single conductor transmission  line offset "T"  connection  at  2.05 cm.

The drawing   on page 153 by "Conspiracy theorist," (also a pre war Pan American Airways Pacific "China Clipper" radio operator of no small qualifications), Paul Rafford, shows a "Z"   Marker antenna between two spars. His dimensions indicate an 89 inch separation between spars. Subract the end insulators and their support wires to the spars  and you could come close to 75 inches for the antenna length.

(For a 1/2  wave antenna you divide 468  by frequency in megahertz.)

468 divided by Marker beacon frequency of 75mhz and you come up with 74.88 inches. Will you settle for 75 inches?

Taken from non-conspiracy author Richard Strippel's drawing and specs the Electra was 38' 7" in length, or 463 inches. Equate Rafford's 89 inches with Strippel's 463 inches  against Donahue's Photographs on page 39 (and 38)  and you have something to work with.

The United States Army Air Force aircraft "Radio Operators Information File", November, 1944, clearly explains the 75 megacycle "Z" Marker Beacons and associated  off-set  fed "T" antenna with technical dimensions and pictures. It clearly shows in red  the  offset antenna at  75  and one half inches in length.

Take a look at it: See http:www.kalamazoo.net/c-comm/mtsee/marker.gif

Retired Senior  Aerospace Engineer Jim Donahue pictures on pages 38 and 39 show two antennas. They appear identical. The closest antenna on page 39  has all the technical requirements for serving as a  75 megacycle "Z"  Marker Antenna. "If it looks like a duck, and if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck."

3., 4., and 5: Having myself traversed the vast South, Southwest, and Central Pacific in 1947 and 1948 as, like Paul Rafford,  an aircraft radio operator, I have  great respect for Jim Donahue's works. His Pacific aviation historical data, for example, the feats and tragedy  concerning Australia's  Kingsford Smith, and Charles T. P. Ulm were outstanding. His suggestion there was a surrogate flight into Micronesia during the Earhart period  and his theories on who and what were commendable. He had hoped someone else would follow up on that and I did extensively. He was credible. As I recall, In effect he made three presentations, each time digging deeper, and ended with a detailed  a summary and conclusion.

"Half-truth fantasy?",   "conspiracy theorists?", "The kindest thing I can say is that the man is creative?",

Where do catagorize an old shoe heel,  and a chunk of old aluminum?

Thanks for allowing me in Ric,  I'm going back to my fiction.

Sayoonara,
Merrill T. See
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:25:33 EDT
From:          Don Jordan
Subject:      Re: Noonan Project adventures

Thanks for that post Ric  Now I know it's real cause I saw it on the Forum.  I was beginning to doubt!  I am not giving up on this project, I gave  the family member 10 questions in hopes of getting some answers.  He wasn't in his store yesterday afternoon, so I left them with his bookkeeper.  "He"...seems a lot more interested in our goals than "She".  I am going to keep at it with him, once a week or so. Something has to give.

Don
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:33:52 EDT
From:          Don Jordan
Subject:      Noonan Project

Some time ago on this Forum, I saw a posting with the date the Discovery Channel was going to air the "Niku III" trip.  Could somebody refresh my memory as to that date.

Ric/Jerry/Sandy

        I would like to see a complete posting of all the information we have on Fred.  All the bio information we know to be true.  What do we know for sure.  Who can put that together?

Don

*************************************************************

From Ric

As I recall, the Discovery Channel will air The Search for Amelia Earhart on July 7.

Anybody wanna tackle the Noonan summary?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:52:57 EDT
From:          Ric Gillespie
Subject:      TIGHAR on TV

Just got a call from ABC News.  They'll be re-broadcasting their documentary about our 1997 Niku III expedition on Thursday, July 2nd (the 61st anniversary of the disappearance).  It'll be in primetime but check your local listings for the exact time in your area.

The Discovery Channel will air their show on July 7th.

Both shows were cut from the same raw tape shot by the ABC crew that accompanied us on the expedition.  The network show has a very different flavor from the cable show.  ABC focused almost exclusively on our work and played it as a one-on-one exchange between me and a rather smartass reporter named Robert Krulwich. Discovery had no on-screen reporter and included interviews with other Earhart researchers and authors.  Both shows are pretty good as such things go - but remember, it's only television.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:56:56 EDT
From:          Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Noonan Project

> Anybody wanna tackle the Noonan summary?

Jerry....???  I think you have more of the organizers knack here.... Unfortunately, I see us as still stuck at the same point..!  Although records in LA may hold some clues.

Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:01:46 EDT
From:          Jim Tierney
Subject:      Eugene Pallette

Regarding Eugene Pallette--Yes there was a Eugene Pallette-- A movie character actor in the '30s-40s.-born 1889-died 1954. Described in "Halliwells Filmgoers Companion" as-- Rotund, gravel voiced American character actor, at his peak as an exasperated father or executive...

Us old movie fans remember him. Probably his biggest role was as Friar Tuck in Errol Flynn's Adventures of Robin Hood. Probably he and Noonan became friendly while Fred was in Hollywood/Burbank.
*************************************************************

From Michael Strickland

Here's what the Internet Movie Database (www.imdb.com) has to say about Eugene Pallette:

Date of birth, location:      8 July 1889, Winfield, Kansas, USA.
Date of death:                   3 September 1954

Mini biography :
Gargantuan-bellied, frog-voiced character actor who was a staple in 1940s movies. He ended up an isolated ultra right-wing bigot and lover of Hitler.

[Maybe he was a Nazi agent after all, eh Ric?]   ;-)
[From Ric:  Oh great.]

Here's a more complete biography:

Eugene Pallette
Born July 8, 1889, in Winfield, KS
Died September 3, 1954, in Los Angeles, CA

Eugene Pallette - Actor. Pallette is most well-known by movie buffs as the delightful character actor with the ample girth and bullfrog voice. What many people don't realize is that his screen career began way back in 1912, when he was a thin leading man who got the girl. Leading men aren't born, they are made by developing their craft. Pallette's career began on the stage in 1910. Between 1913 and 1920, he maintained his leading man status, and his figure, in Westerns, melodramas, comedies and spectacles. He began with the American Film Manufacturing Company and then moved on to D.W. Griffith's company, where he appeared in such films as Birth of a Nation (David W. Griffith Corp, for Epoch Producing Corp., 1915), with Lillian Gish and Henry B. Walthall, and Intolerance (Wark Producing Company, 1916), with Constance Talmadge and Mae Marsh. He also appeared in Gretchen the Greenhorn (Fine Arts-Triangle, 1916), starring Dorothy Gish; A Man's Man (Peralta Plays, Inc., for W.W. Hodkinson, 1917), with J. Warren Kerrigan and Lois Wilson; Tarzan of the Apes (National Film Corp., for First National, 1918), starring Elmo Lincoln; Terror Island (Artcraft, 1920) starring the great Harry Houdini and directed by James Cruze; and Alias Jimmy Valentine (Metro Pictures, 1920), starring Bert Lytell. It should be noted that Pallette took a break from film during 1918 and 1919 to fight in World War I.

After 1920, Pallette was strictly a supporting player, but a dangerous one because of his proficiency in scene stealing. Some of his more familiar films were The Three Musketeers (United Artists, 1921), starring Douglas Fairbanks; The Wolf Man (Fox Film Corp., 1924), starring John Gilbert and Norma Shearer; Whispering Smith (PDC, 1926), starring John Bowers and Junior Coghlan; Mantrap (Famous Players-Lasky, 1926), starring Clara Bow and Ernest Torrence; Chicago (DeMille Pictures, 1927), starring Phyllis Haver; Sugar Daddies (Roach/M-G-M, 1927), starring Laurel and Hardy; and The Good-Bye Kiss (Sennett, for First National, 1928), where he made a rare return to star billing. It appears that Pallette's last silent film was His Private Life (Paramount Famous Lasky Corp., 1928), with Adolphe Menjou.

The 1930's and 1940's established Eugene Pallette more fully in the permanent Hollywood hall of fame. Some of the most classic films of this golden era were enhanced by this jovial, rotund character actor. They include Fighting Caravans (Paramount, 1931), starring Gary Cooper, Ernest Torrence and Tully Marshall; It Pays to Advertise (Paramount, 1931) (43k jpeg), with Louise Brooks and Lucien Littlefield; Shanghai Express (Paramount, 1932), starring Marlene Dietrich, Anna May Wong, Clive Brook and directed by Josef von Sternberg; Bordertown (Warner Bros., 1935), starring Paul Muni and Bette Davis; My Man Godfrey (Universal, 1936), starring William Powell and Carole Lombard; Topper (Roach/M-G-M, 1937), starring Constance Bennett and Cary Grant; One Hundred Men and a Girl (Universal, 1937), starring Deanna Durbin; The Adventures of Robin Hood (Warner Bros., 1938), starring Errol Flynn [Pallette complemented Willard Louis' earlier and excellent silent Friar Tuck (1922) and easily established his claim on the talkie Tuck]; Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (Columbia, 1939), starring Jimmy Stewart and directed by Frank Capra; Young Tom Edison (M-G-M, 1940), starring Mickey Rooney; The Mark of Zorro (20th Century-Fox, 1940), starring Tyrone Power and Linda Darnell; The Lady Eve (Paramount, 1941), starring Barbara Stanwyck and Henry Fonda; The Big Street (RKO, 1942), starring Henry Fonda and Lucille Ball; Heaven Can Wait (20th Century-Fox, 1943), starring Gene Tierney, Don Ameche and directed by Ernst Lubitsch; The Gang's All Here (20th Century-Fox, 1943), starring Alice Faye, Carmen Miranda and directed by Busby Berkeley; and In Old Sacramento (Republic, 1946), starring Ruth Donnelly and Paul Hurst. His last film seems to be Silver River (Warner Bros., 1948), starring Errol Flynn, Ann Sheridan and directed by Raoul Walsh. Pallette was unbilled along with a number of other recognizable character actors.

Pallette may have retired from the screen six years before his death due to poor health. One thing is for sure; he graced well over 200 films in his prolific career. His shape was unique and his voice was distinctive, but to movie fans, Eugene Pallette was just plain lovable."

[from The Silents Majority,
http://www.mdle.com/ClassicFilms/FeaturedStar/perfor79.htm]
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:37:38 EDT
From:          Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: footnote from Barbara Wiley

>behooves (n, plural) - the feet of bees.

They're only "behooves" when they're shod of course.

Does she mean "Behove" ?

LTM
Simon

***************************************************************
From Ric

Behove is just the past tense of behoove, so that doesn't make sense either. Let's see, what she actually said was:

>Ric,  It behooves me how you so casually brush off some information and
>cling to your own?  Barbara

She may have meant, "It irritates me.."  or "It puzzles me...."  or "It delights me..."(that's probably not it.)  It's just another of those wonderful unfathomable mysteries which surround the Earhart disappearance.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:45:44 EDT
From:          Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Noonan Project Home Run

Ron Dawson, TIGHAR 2126, has smacked one over the centerfield wall with the first contemporaneous written documentation we've ever seen of Fred Noonan's date and place of birth.  Last night Ron faxed me a copy of Noonan's voter registration form for the Parish of Orleans, Louisiana dated January 5, 1930.

It's a printed form with blanks filled in by hand in Fred's handwriting (by now, I'd recognize his hand anywhere).  Here's what it says:

Ward No. 4
Prct. No. 11
Cert. No. 465

Noonan Frederick J. (in a flowery hand that is not Noonan's.  All other entries are by Fred.)

Residence No.  5909 Catina Street.  I am a citizen of the State of Louisiana. My name is Mr. Frederick J. Noonan.  I was born in the State (or country) of Illinois Parish (or county) of Cook on the 4th day of April in the year 1893. I am now 36 years, 10 months, and 1 days of age.  I have resided in this State since 1920, and in Precinct No. 11 in Ward No. 4 of this Parish continuously since 1928 and I am not disenfranchised by any provision of the Constitution of this State. The name of the householder at my present residence is Ed. (the Ed. is then crossed out) Frederick J. Noonan.  My occupation is Aviator.  My color is White.  My sex is Male.  I am affiliated with the Democratic Party. Signature here ...F.J. Noonan
Sworn to and subscribed before me, 1-5 1930 Hans Bertmore (?) Registrar of Voters

There is a wealth of new information here and with this it seems like we should be able to get a birth certificate.   Incidentally, the Internet says 5909 Catina St. is still there, zip code 7124-1907.  Somebody named William T. Mcelroy get his mail there and probably has no idea whose ghost still haunts the old place.

Nice going Ron.  Take a bow.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:15:13 EDT
From:          Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: photos

In reference to Tom Robison's mention of an engine in a photo of AE, Wiley Post and Roscoe Turner).

Ric wrote:

>I guess I must be more confused than usual.  We don't know what the Canton
>engine looked like except from Bruce's recollection that it was a very badly
>beat-up R1340.

The engine in this photo looks like a 985 (if indeed it is a P&W) and not a 1340 due to the coarser pitched cooling vanes on the cylinders. This would obviously rule it out as being the Kanton engine.

LTM
Simon
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:40:51 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      The Word on DFing

>It has been alleged by some that the schematic for the WE 20B indicates that
>it could not be used for DFing.  Not true?

Ric:  You've not been paying attention!

WE 20B Could not be used for DFing.  That's a Myth.

Sense antenna is applicable only to ADF.  Another Myth.

First, the sense antenna thing... I think the article on the Bendix manual DF loops and the coupler unit to compare loop-signal phase to sense antenna-signal phase makes a pretty good case.  The article appeared in the August, 1937 issue of the "Aero Digest," page 42.  The TIGHAR photo of AE holding the Loop and someone else holding the coupler unit, is pretty good evidence that this particular Bendix equipment did exist prior the the second around the world attempt.  She had a manual DF loop and may very well have had the coupler to utilize a sense antenna signal.  That's the way Bendix intended the manual loop to be installed.

The September 1937 issue of "Aero Digest" has an article on a Western Electric loop antenna "for use with Model 14 and 20 Type receivers."  I take that to include the WE 20B and all other versions of those receivers.  I assume they all tuned at least some part of the frequency range in which DF loops will work.  The WE 20B does have a gap in coverage between the two lowest ranges: 200 to 400 and 550 to 1500.  The article did not make any reference to sense antennas.  I didn't copy it or note the page number.

From a theoretical point of view, what does it take to do DFing? It takes a directional antenna and some means to know whether the signal is getting stronger or weaker as you rotate the antenna.  A simple loop antenna is a good choice.  It is directional with two sharply defined minima 180 degrees apart.  Any receiver that can be tuned to the appropriate frequency will take care of the rest of the requirement.  It will provide
amplification and and drive headphones so you can judge whether the signal is getting louder or less loud as you rotate the loop.

The ambiguity of the two Minima 180 degrees apart can be resolved in at least a couple of ways, one of them being to use a sense antenna and coupler unit as discussed relative to the Bendix manual DF loops.  In that case, the combined signals are routed to the receiver antenna terminal.  Tune the receiver to the desired frequency and listen for changes in loudness as you rotate the loop.  There will be only one minimum signal position now.

In the case of the WE 20B receiver, I suppose one could argue that it could not be used for DFing in the skipped frequency region, such as at 500 kc. But it would DF just fine at the frequencies it does cover.

****************************************************************

From Ric

Sorry.  Thanks for clearing all that up Vern.  Not to make excuses, but the radio discussions on the forum have been many and, at times, pretty technical for simple-minded throttle jockeys like me.  So check me on this - the bottom line is that the available evidence suggests that Earhart's radio set up was:

A WE13C tranmitter which used the dorsal Vee antenna
A WE20B receiver which also used the dorsal Vee for voice reception.
A Bendix manual loop (probably an MN-5) coupled to the WE20B for use in DFing.
A sense antenna on the belly also attached to the WE20B.

That's one transmitter attached to the dorsal Vee and one receiver attached to EITHER that same antenna OR the two DFing antennas (Loop and Belly) with, presumably, some kind of switch.  Have I got this right?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:38:04 EDT
From:          Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Attn All Forum Members

In recognition and celebration of the most knowledgeable and productive - not to mention witty and irreverent - research group on-line anywhere (moderator excluded), and hoping to raise some badly needed bucks, we're offering Amelia Earhart Search Forum T-shirts and refrigerator magnets for sale to any forum subscriber.

The shirt features the forum name rendered in a classic 1930s art deco font with the colorful Earhart Project logo below and our traditional "Love to Mother" closing in big red script.  You're gonna love this shirt.

The 2 x 3.5 inch magnet has the project logo and Love to Mother with the reminder Check Your Email.  (Remember, put it on the 'fridge.  Keep all magnets away from your computer.)

The price is $25 for the set.  You can see the artwork and order yours on the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org   The new T-shirt link is right on the Home Page.

For new forum subscribers who may be wondering what this Love to Mother business is all about, here's the story:

A few years ago, a woman named Patricia Morton was doing Earhart research at the National Archives and stumbled upon a telegram dating from 1945 which contained a whole list of messages to friends and relatives from internees at a recently-liberated camp in China. One was addressed to Mr. G.P. Putnam, 10042 Valley Spring Lane, North Hollywood, California  The text reads:

Following message received for you from Weihsien via American embassy, Chungking:

Camp liberated; all well.  Volumes to tell.  Love to mother (*).

The (*) is explained at the bottom of the page as meaning signature omitted. The State Department forwarded the message to Putnam via SpeedLetter (a type of quick-notice letter) on August 28, 1945.  The letter was sent by Eldred D. Kuppinger, Assistant Chief, Special War Problems Division. The document has no stamp to indicate that it was ever classified, nor does it have a stamp indicating that it was ever declassified.  Anyone who has ever obtained formerly classified documents at the National Archives knows that they are real careful about that. There appears to be no indication that the document was ever classified.   That's hardly surprising given the explanation of what a SpeedLetter is, which appears in the upper right corner of the document; "This form of communication is used in the interest of speed and economy.  If a reply is necessary, address the Department of State, attention of the Division mentioned below."

In Putnam's reply he merely updated his address and asked to be notified if anything else was heard.

Weihsien was not a prisoner of war camp. It was a Civilian Assembly Camp - an internment camp.  According to a 1995 letter by one of the American soldiers who liberated Weihsien on August 17, 1945 there were no Japanese military personnel in charge of the camp.  It was run by a Mr. Izu of the Japanese Consular Service.  All internees were well documented.  Amelia Earhart was not there.

On the 18th a general inspection was made of the camp and twelve internees were hospitalized and selected for early departure due to poor health.  They were evacuated by C-47 on the 28th, the date of the telegram and the SpeedLetter.

Why was such a message sent to Putnam?  Sadly, it was most likely a hoax.  In the years following Amelia's disappearance GP was beset by dozens of false leads and scams.  Some were financially motivated.  Others were apparently just cruel jokes.  Whether the Weihsien message was a joke or a mistake, it's quite clear that it was not from Amelia Earhart.  Nonetheless, the letter is frequently held up by conspiracy theorists as evidence that Earhart was "captured" by the Japanese, held prisoner, and returned to the U.S. after the war.  This telegram and the nonsense which has surrounded it in recent years has prompted those of us most involved in TIGHAR's Earhart research to adopt the "Love to mother" closing as a reminder to keep our objectivity and skepticism intact when evaluating any new evidence.

Love to mother,
Ric

Again, you can see the artwork and order your shirt and magnet at
http://www.tighar.org

Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:05:20 EDT
From:          Jim Tierney
Subject:      Re: Eugene Pallette

From Jim Tierney

To Michael Strickland---Thanks to you for the EP Bio-
But it really was a little more than I needed to know about EP......
I am willing to bet that if there are 1500 members of the AE Forum-less than 150 or10% can remember who EP was..
Jim Tierney

***************************************************************

From Ric

Hey!  Mike's the one who found out that Fred was corresponding with a Nazi sympathizer.  I didn't want to know that - but I'm glad we know it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:17:49 EDT
From:          Roger Kelley
Subject:      Label Search

I received my TIGHAR T-shirt and hat last week.  You guys did a good job!  They're well worth the money.  You would be surprised at how many people around Van Nuys and Burbank airports recognized the logo, which in turn opened up some interesting conversations.  I think the AE project has captured more imaginations than we realize.

Yesterday, I was in a large antique shop in Saugus, CA and was amazed at the number of old tin cans and bottles for sale.  All most had labels intact.  Needless to say, I started to search for canned bananas, but soon discovered that I had insufficient  information to make a decent match.  All for naught, no canned bananas in stock.

Now, if we had a decent color photo of the partially burned fragment of the label found in the remains of the camp fire on Nikumaroro,  or a 1 to 1 scale color drawing, a search of antiques shops over the world might be initiated by TIGHAR members.  Who knows what we might find.....maybe a match on something other than bananas.  Maybe the label is off of a bottle???

Could TIGHAR e-mail a high quality color photo of the partially burned label?  (The photo should include a ruler or the scale should be noted.)  We could download, print and start the search.

My wife says, "Cool hat, Dude."

Roger Kelley, #2112

**************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks for the product endorsement.  We like to put out good stuff.

There's a color photo of the label fragment on the website at www.tighar.org under the Help Wanted section of the Earhart Project.  The resolution is not all that great due to the usual limitations of such things.  A "killer scan" of the label would produce a file too big to mount on the website -- 2 minute downloads tend to kill interest. We could snailmail a print to anyone who seriously wants to go after a match. Unfortunately, we incur about $15 in costs to produce, handle and mail each print so we have to ask that the researcher cover that expense.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:37:39 EDT
From:          Dick Strippel
Subject:      Re: Ping Pong Ball Eyewitness

BOB MYERS IS LOONEY TUNES PERSONIFIED..

       DICK
*************************************************

From Ric

He's baaaaack.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:40:23 EDT
From:          Sam Ginder
Subject:      Re: footnote from Barbara Wiley

I thought Barbara meant to say, "It behooves me to tell you that .... etc. etc." She mis-typed and left part of her sentence out. We should let her error rest, don't you think?
Sam Ginder
****************************************************************

From Ric

You're right Sam.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:57:59 EDT
From:          Clyde Miller
Subject:      Ping Pong Balls in the news

Is it possible that the ping pong balls could have been responsible for the downing of the electra?

>Firefighters in Florida are hoping Mother Nature cuts them a break Thursday.
>If winds die down, they'll be able to try a new approach to fighting the state's
>raging wildfires. The plan is to drop dozens of ping pong balls filled with
>chemicals that will hit the ground and spark small fires. The idea is to burn
>out scrub brush and grass that can fuel larger blazes and threaten homes.
>Meanwhile, many people in Volusia and Flagler counties are ignoring orders to
>evacuate, instead staying behind to protect their homes.

**************************************************************

From Ric

>A Flagler County, Florida youth received first and second degree burns to his
>hands and arms today when a napalm-loaded ping pong ball apparently found its
>way into a box of regulation table tennis balls.  Said 19 year old Jason Craquer,
>"I was just like goin' for this wicked serve when - Dude! "  A statewide warning 
>has been issued to all table tennis enthusiasts.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:24:27 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Label fragment: Striations

Does the label fragment show striations?  If so, are we talking about the marks resulting from the corrugations in the can?  If this is the case, the spacing might say something about the kind and size can involved.  I'm afraid the marks might also say the label is of relatively recent origin. Virtually all cans are corrugated today but I don't think that was the case a few years ago.  Some exceptions are, coffee cans and the large juice cans. These have wide corrugations -- only a few corrugations in the whole can.
**************************************************************

From Ric

Yes, the label shows striations.  The implication is that these are from corrugations on the can.  Tom is sending the label to me and we'll get some measurements.  As to how long cans have featured corrugations, I don't have any information on that but some Industrial Archeology types should be able to help us.  Given the depth at which the label was found versus the very slow rate of stratigraphic build-up on Niku, and the archaic appearance of the label itself, it's hard to think that it is of recent manufacture.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:26:08 EDT
From:          Dick Pingrey
Subject:      The real truth about the ping pong balls.

If you and the other Forum readers have been watching the news you now know the truth about the ping pong balls.  Amelia and Fred were on a secret mission to bomb the Japanese with ping pong incendiary bombs.  Half the balls were bombs and the other half were filled with extra aviation fuel to extend the range of the airplane.  Fred's secret job was to empty the ping pong balls with fuel into the fuel tanks and to drop the ones with explosive mixture on the Japanese where ever they could be found.

The fact that ping pong balls are being used to start back fires in Florida is proof that this was their real mission in the Pacific.  What a perfect cover.  No one would suspect ping pong balls and we at TIGHAR found the truth first.  Fred must have lost his cool and emptied the wrong balls into the fuel tank and BANG it was all over in a flash.  Isn't it nice to have the entire mystery solved by one news broadcast.

Dick Pingrey 908C
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:43:01 EDT
From:          Jack
Subject:      Airline hams & Levanevski

I just wanted to let you know there is a group called " The International Association of Airline Hams" (IAAH) that has man years of airline experience you may be able to tap. I am a member. They have a newsletter and I was thinking you could put a blurb in that newsletter and possibly locate someone who could provide some pieces to the AE puzzle.

I am presently speaking to one member who flew as a FRO on the Lockheed L-10 and sent him a list of questions regarding the radio equipment, antennas and location of same, DF etc.  I wrote to a second who worked at MIA apt. in 1937. I will keep you posted.

IAAH  Editor's E-mail address. Is... mikewings@att.net

The President of IAAH is Mr. George Boring, Aeronautical Radio (retired) and his E- mail is...  gboring@erols.com.

You may want to run your request for a blurb by George first.

If you contact them, you can use my name as they all know me.

Ric when you have nothing else to do, There was a Russan aviation pioneer named Levanofsky. He and his four engine bomber crew were lost flying from Moscow to Fairbanks in 1937. No trace has ever been found.

Love to mother,
Jack, 2157

***************************************************************

Jack,

Thanks for that information.  It would be fine with me if you made the inquiry to IAHH.  I'm buried here.

Sigismund Levanevski was Stalin's fair-haired boy and was considered to be the "Russian Lindbergh."  When he disappeared over the Arctic in 1937 there was a huge international search which employed several famous aviators and airplanes (including the only other Lockheed 10E Special).  There was one fascinating story told by some Inuit seal hunters which may, in fact, describe the crash of the airplane in the water off the north coast of Alaska.  We looked into it about 12 years ago and concluded that it wasn't worth a search.  Some other people spent a lot of time and money and got very chilly before they reached the same conclusion.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:00:11 EDT
From:          Roger Kelley
Subject:      Label Search...I'll buy the photo!

To whom and at what address do I send my check to purchase a photo of the tin can label remains?  Confirm cost is $15.

Thanks,
Roger Kelley, 2112
**************************************************************

From Ric

$15 is correct.  Check should be payble to TIGHAR.  Send it to:

TIGHAR
Label Fragment Photo Dept.
2812 Fawkes Drive
Wilmington, DE  19808
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:13:22 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Ping pong balls in orbit!

The devil made me do this!  Well.. Ric made me do it!

This will be my LAST reference to ping pong balls... unless they should actually become on-topic and that is very unlikely.

Quoting Ric:

>>So far, we know they don't let go at 70,000 feet.  We may need to bring in the
>>NASA gang on this one.  Sounds like a Shuttle mission to me.

I took 3 ping pong balls to Low Earth Orbit (LEO) -- like a couple hundred miles up. That's where the shuttle and the MIR space station operate.  I kept them there a few hours then brought them back down.  They were none the worse for the experience.  That's really not surprising.  They experienced only a very little more internal pressure than at 70,000 feet.

I had to break out my "good," two-stage vacuum pump to do this.  It might be pretty hard to do this sort of thing in a large high-altitude test chamber, but it's pretty easy in my little roughly one-gallon size chamber.

Since we're this far off-topic anyway, I might talk about pressure a little bit. I'd like to think most forum folks are more knowledgeable than CNN's science reporter! More on that later.

When you think about it, it seems a little strange to talk about pressure (or vacuum) in terms of millimeters or inches.  These are units of length, not pressure.  What we're really talking about is the height of a column of mercury that the pressure will support.  Like in the old barometer with the glass tube filled with mercury.  So, we say atmospheric pressure at sea level is 760 mm of mercury, or about 30 inches of mercury.  And this corresponds to about 15 pounds per square inch of pressure. 760 mmHg (Hg is the symbol for mercury) is the internationally agreed upon "standard" sea level pressure.

Some pressures of possible interest:

"Standard" sea level pressure:
   760 mmHg     29.9 inHg       14.7 lb/square inch

I think Ric first wondered about 12,000 feet altitude:
   460 mmHg     18.1 inHg       8.9 lb/square inch

Mt. Everest is 29,100 feet.
   238 mmHg     9.4 inHg        4.6 lb/square inch

Highest altitude in my table of pressures is 65,472 feet:   (almost the 70,000 ft)
   44.1 mmHg    1.7 inHg        0.85 lb/square inch

Orbital altitude of a couple hundred miles:
   Pressure is less than one mmHg -- nearly but not quite zero.
   I don't have a gauge that will measure it but I know the pump will reach just about that pressure.

What about pressure in the ping pong ball?  it's the difference between the pressure it started with minus the pressure outside, at altitude.  It started with about 15 pounds per square inch at sea level.  if the outside pressure became zero, the ball would be holding 15 pounds per square inch. It can never be more than that.  When you consider the small total area of the ball, it's not hard to see how it would withstand the "hardest" vacuum that exists in outer space.

Someone will question whether ping pong balls start out pressurized.  I held one under water and drilled a tiny hole in it -- no bubbles.  They are not pressurized.  The "bounce" is entirely due to the stiffness of the plastic. The ball bounced exactly the same after the hole was drilled.

The CNN "science reporter":

The Russians were replacing the hatch on the damaged Spektr module so they could bring power from the remaining functional solar panels out through sealed connectors to the rest of the MIR space station.  CNN was covering it live via the Russian command center in Moscow.  They had depressurized the "node" and repressurized it several times during the operation.  As they were finishing up, the science reporter said, at one point, "The Russian Cosmonauts are reporting 760 mm...whatever that has to do with anything."

I think the science reporter's credentials must be having managed to pass 7th grade general science with a "C."
***************************************************************

From Ric

>This will be my LAST reference to ping pong balls ...

I'll hold you to that.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:16:21 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Re Eugene Pallette

>Hey!  Mike's the one who found out that Fred was corresponding with a Nazi
>sympathizer.  I didn't want to know that - but I'm glad we know it.

Remember the kid who suggested that Fred Noonan was the spy, not Amelia, and that he had killed her?  That's why there was only one skeleton found on Gardner.
***************************************************************

From Ric

Und zis is vigh vee are findink no birs certificate for Herr Noonan!
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:17:49 EDT
From:          David Kelly
Subject:      Lockheed 10 plans

>Forum member Frank Kuhre did a lot of work on Finch's airplane.  Maybe he can
>help us with where they got whatever plans they worked from.

Many thanks for that...I may try and get hold of copies of the drawings you refer to if it is possible......If Frank Kuhre could let me know what he had it would be appreciated.

You may notice that my email is returning over the last few days...my ISP has just changed bandwidth provider and he tells me it will take a few days to rectify....in the meantime I can send but not receive.....
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:21:48 EDT
From:          Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Math-challenged Fred

> My name is Mr. Frederick J. Noonan.  I was born in the State (or country) of
> Illinois Parish (or county) of Cook on the 4th day of April in the year 1893.
> I am now 36 years, 10 months, and 1 days of age.

For a navigator, Fred sure had a problem with math....
*************************************************************

From Ric

...and look where it got him.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:13:37 EDT
From:          Clyde Miller
Subject:      The more things change...

>You may notice that my email is returning over the last few days...my ISP
>has just changed bandwidth provider and he tells me it will take a few days
>to rectify....in the meantime I can send but not receive.

My God!!!!  David Kelly is tuned to the wrong Frequency!!!!!!!

Clyde Miller
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:44:06 EDT
From:          Tom King
Subject:      Re: Label fragment: Striations

>As to how long cans have featured corrugations, I don't have
>any information on that but some Industrial Archeology types should be able
>to help us.

Yeah, let's hear from some of our historical archeologists out there with specifics; I'm pretty sure I've seen striated cans in dumps going back a century or so, but this is not my area of expertise.  The California State Historic Preservation Officer did a whole study of can scatters a few years back; I don't have the report, but if one of our experts in the subject doesn't pop right up with the answer, I can get it.

Pingpongs to Mom
TK
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:20:22 EDT
From:          Gene Dangelo and others
Subject:      Re: Math-challenged Fred

I know how he felt!

************************************************************
From Randy Jacobson

Okay, he was off by one month.  Perhaps there was a leap month in 1900.  Curiously, he could have been born in Cook County, Illinois (i.e. Chicago).  Is there an Illinois Parish in Cook, Ireland?
*************************************************************
From Ric

Tradition (based upon 1937 newspaper articles) holds that Fred was born in Chicago.  We now have corroboration from Fred himself that he was born in Cook County, Illinois (that's where they keep Chicago).  Cook Co., however, has no birth certificate for a Frederick J. Noonan.  This would seem to present two possibilities:

1.  Fred was born where and when he said he was born but no birth certificate got recorded.  In Chicago in 1893, especially in what may have been a poor Irish immigrant family, that does not seem unlikely.

2.  Fred was lying.  However, we have no evidence to suggest a motive for lying, and until we do, I think we have to take Fred at his word.

Possibility No. 2 is always present.  What if the Bureau of Air Commerce was lying about the configuration of the Electra?  What if Eric Chater was lying about what happened in Lae?  Possibility No. 2 is the traditional refuge of the conspiracy theorist.  Sometimes people lie.  Most of the time they don't. Sometimes misstatements are made unintentionally (such as Fred's arithmetic error), but discounting direct statements without equally strong contradicting evidence is not warranted.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:44:02 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: The Word on DFing

>... The available evidence suggests that Earhart's radio set up was:
>A WE13C tranmitter which used the dorsal Vee antenna
>A WE20B receiver which also used the dorsal Vee for voice reception.
>A Bendix manual loop (probably an MN-5) coupled to the WE20B for use in DFing.
>A sense antenna on the belly also attached to the WE20B.
>
>That's one transmitter attached to the dorsal Vee and one receiver attached to
>EITHER that same antenna OR the two DFing antennas (Loop and Belly) with,
>presumably, some kind of switch.  Have I got this right?

I think that's the most likely arrangement.  The transmitter schematic shows the relay to do the antenna switching and other things necessary to change from receive to transmit.  It was certainly the expectation of the designer that it would be used that way.  There is little doubt that the dorsal Vee was the transmitting antenna and it was probably the normal receiving antenna as well -- by virtue of the relay in the WE13C transmitter. Incidentally, that's a conventional relay, not a coaxial relay, since it appears they were not into coax in the 30s.

The WE20B receiver is normally connected to the antenna (dorsal Vee) via relay contacts in the transmitter.  The antenna signal is simply passed on to the receiver via the relay contacts.

When the "talk" button on the microphone was pressed, the relay was energized and changed to the transmit position.  The antenna was disconnected from the receiver, the receiver input was grounded to protect input circuitry and the transmitter was powered up.  In a few seconds the dynamotor was up to speed and the tube cathodes were up to operating temperature.

The DFing antennas (loop and belly):  I think the antennas were not connected directly to the receiver but were connected to that "coupling unit."  The coupling unit, in turn, connected to the receiver -- a single lead to the receiver antenna binding post.  The switch would be at this point -- receiver connected to coupling unit, or to transmitter (the relay). There are other possible connections, such as via the transmitter just like the Vee antenna, but this seems most straight forward.

I'm making what I hope are educated guesses regarding that coupling unit. To date, I've found no detailed information on the coupling unit, per Bendix, or any other kind of circuitry used to combine loop and sense antenna signals.

If this is all correct, the loss of the belly antenna does not explain why AE didn't hear anything with the receiver.  She heard the Itasca after she did whatever she did to try to DF, so the receiver was operative.  That does seem to point toward a problem in the receiver connection to the Vee antenna, namely the T/R relay.  Or, possibly something that got disconnected by accident.

There are several possibilities that make this a lot more complicated.  If there was as much tinkering around with radio equipment as is indicated by the TIGHAR radio documentation (and in some of the books), there are all sorts of possibilities.  I'll try to think my way through all this a bit more before trying to really confuse matters!
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:59:58 EDT
From:          Randy Jacobson
Subject:      How many Noonans?

Do we now have two Frederick Noonans?  The latest information states April 4, 1893 as a birthdate.  Jackie Ferrari reported a Frederick Joseph Noonan born on 14 June or July, 1891 in England.  Which one is our Fred?

**************************************************************

From Ric

We know that the man who swore his birthdate and birthplace before a Louisiana registrar was "our" Fred Noonan.  If he is the same man who was born in Norwich, England in 1891 he was also a liar.

Noonan is a fairly common Irish name (there are 23 Noonans in the Wilmington, DE phone book) and neither Frederick nor the letter J. are exactly rare.  I suspect that there were a number of Frederick J. Noonans running about the world in the early years of this century.  That Jackie Ferrari should have come across one of them in Britain (where she lives and can most easily do research) is unremarkable.

My take on this is that we have one Fred Noonan who was born in Cook County, Illinois on April 4, 1893.  Was a sailor from roughly 1908 to 1930.  Moved to New Orleans in 1920.  Married Josephine Sullivan in 1927.  Went to work for Pan American in 1930. etc., etc.

Love to mother
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 10:55:18 EDT
From:          Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Earhart Search Conference

For all of you who are already signed up and those of you who would still like to sign up - here are the particulars on the upcoming Amelia Earhart Search Conference.

Why you should come:

A)  You've already paid your 95 bucks.
      or
B)  You'll enjoy reviewing and debating the evidence and artifacts first hand, meeting the expedition team, and helping us plan for Niku IIII.
C)  We need your brain.

Dates and times:

Saturday, July 11 - 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.
Sunday, July 12 - 9 a.m. to 3 p.m.

Location:

The Hiller Aviation Museum
601 Skyway Road
San Carlos, CA  94070

phone: (650) 654-0200
website: www.hiller.org

The Hiller Aviation Museum is a brand new, state-of-the-art aviation museum located on the San Carlos airport just 12 miles south of San Francisco International Airport (SFO) on U.S. Route 101.  Take the Holly Street/Redwood Shores Pkwy exit.  Go east onto Redwood Shores Pkwy, right onto Airport Rd., right onto Skyway Rd.

Where to stay (right next door to the museum):

Inns of America
555 Skyway Road
San Carlos, CA  94070

phone: (800) 826-0778
website:  www.innsamerica.com

Famous Forum Personalities who will be there (in alphabetical order):
John Clauss - veteran of every TIGHAR expedition to Nikumaroro
Ric Gillespie - your humble servant
Jerry Hamilton - Noonan researcher extraordinaire
Dr. Tom King - Earhart Project Senior Archaeologist and Songwriter
Kenton Spading - Team member, researcher, and remote-sensing specialist
Jim Tierney - researcher and frequent forum contributor.

...and many more.

The cost is $95 for TIGHAR members, $140 for non-members (which includes a one year membership in TIGHAR). To register, just phone me at (302) 994-4410 during East Coast business hours or send your check or credit card info to:

TIGHAR
2812 Fawkes Drive
Wilmington, DE  19808

You can also fax us at (302) 994-7945.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:50:55 EDT
From:          Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Earhart Search Conference

Sniff!  No bull-shitters on the dais I see.  Sniff! Sniff! Enjoy yourselves!

**************************************************************
From Ric

I somehow doubt that we'll all just sit around agreeing with each other, but it would be great if you could come out and contribute your learned skepticism to the donnybrook.  Besides, nobody can throw tomatoes like you.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:03:49 EDT
From:          unknown
Subject:      Re: How many Noonans?

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO HER ???

*************************************************************

From Ric

Well, you see, we think we know what happened to her but we need to prove it beyond any doubt.  The only way to do that is to find and recover absolute evidence - like the wreckage of her airplane and/or her bones.  The trouble is, if those things are where we think they are, they're on an island that's a long way from here.  To get there and try to prove that we're right about what happened to her, we need to raise a whole bunch of money.  Nobody is going to give us that money if they're not convinced that we're probably right, and we don't want to spend all that money to go there and look if it's not the right place.  So - we have to make sure we have all the facts straight in order to be as sure as we can be that we're looking in the right place.  See?

By the way, are you by any chance related to Dick Strippel?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:11:57 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Math-challenged Fred

Sandy Campbell wrote:

>>My name is Mr. Frederick J. Noonan.  I was born in the State (or
>>country) of Illinois Parish (or county) of Cook on the 4th day of April in the year
>>1893.  I am now 36 years, 10 months, and 1 days of age.
>
>For a navigator, Fred sure had a problem with math....

I wonder how truthful Fred's answers were?  We've sorta come full circle... perhaps back to a myth about Fred being born in Chicago?  Maybe he just wasn't to good at quick arithmetic in his head -- didn't expect to be asked all that stuff.  Might it turn out that Chicago Fred and Jackie's English Fred are one and the same after all? You know how spies are -- can't believe anything they tell you! <grin>

Has anyone who knew Fred ever mentioned a british accent?

***************************************************************

From Ric

No.  I know of no mention of any accent.  See my earlier post titled How many Noonans?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:17:55 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Label fragment: Striations

>Given the depth at which the label was found versus the very slow
>rate of stratigraphic build-up on Niku, and the archaic appearance of the
>label itself, it's hard to think that it is of recent manufacture.

In view of the above (deep coverage), I wouldn't expect the "stretch marks" due to rolling the label onto a corrugated can to still be discernible. Maybe such things are more durable than I think.  Is it possible that the striations are glue stripes rather than marks left by corrugations? Applying adhesives in stripes has been common practice for a long time.  It provides uniform coverage without excess.  Close spaced stripes are as good as full coverage for holding something like a can label.  Passing a roller over the lap joint will squeeze the glue in the other direction and stick down the whole edge.  The picture of the label fragment indicates two straight edges and a square corner.  Is it actually a corner of the label that would include a portion of the lap joint area?  Trying real hard to place it in the 1930s! <grin>
**************************************************************

From Ric

We only have one straight edge, along the top.  No square corner.

The striped glue idea is interesting.  The actual artifact is being sent here and should arrive Monday.  I haven't seen it "live" since March of '97.  We'll get some better photos and see if we can pull out any more information.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:24:19 EDT
From:          Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Re: How many Noonans?

Via Randy Jacobson
(Note:  Jackie, who lives in Scotland, is working on a biography of Fred
Noonan and was a member of the forum until fairly recently.)

Thanks for keeping me posted on this. I believe the Chicago Fred is the right one.

A few days ago I got the CIVIL marriage cert. where he states he was born in Chicago in 1893.  But interestingly I also obtained the church marriage cert. accompanied by a letter from the priest who said the records stated that he was born and baptised in NEW ORLEANS !!! Was our Fred indeed a liar?  I don't think so. It is more likely an error on the part of the priest. But I am keeping an open mind. Another interesting thing is that IF 1893 is right he lied about his age when signing on the Crompton. But this was commonplace for young guys going to sea for the first time. He states it was his first ship on the crew agreement but there again I am inclined to think he was not lying when he said he went to sea in 1908 at the age of 15.

I agree with Ric in that Noonan is a very common name. But its got nothing on Sullivan !!

I am awaiting birth searches for Frederick J. Noonan from Ireland which should give us an indication of how common a name it is too.

A thought on April 4. I haven't checked my records but I think this was about the date Fred had his accident. Had he been celebrating his birthday?!!

Ric. Its a whole load easier doing research in the states! All those censuses, better freedom of information act, exceptionally detailed voter registrations, internet access to peoples addresses, absolutely helpful libraries.....It is a truly open society.

Regards
Jackie

Randy. I would appreciate it if you could post this reply onto the forum and congratulations to Ron Dawson!
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:27:57 EDT
From:          Tom King
Subject:      Fred Redux?

FLASH!  This morning's (6/28/98) Washington Post Style Section contains an article entitled "Taking Atoll", by one J. Maarten Troost (who with a name like that must be from the State Dept.), about -- yes, folks, Kiribati! (Sample:  "Upon arrival...the first thing one notices is that it is very hot. Thereafter one notices that it is ALWAYS very hot.")

Toward the end of the article, commenting on the dissipating effects of island life, Mr. Troost reports that:

"It's true that parasites keep you thin, but they also lend an air of corporeal decay -- a strung-out look best exemplified here by a man called Half-Dead FRED (emphasis added), an American who has overstayed his visa by 19 years and whose wasted appearance earned him that nickname.  I cannot say for certain whether Half-Dead Fred is sane, but he is happy -- and I believe much of his happiness derives from having released himself so utterly from the demands of vanity."

Overstayed his visa indeed.  And I'll bet he plays ping-pong.

Love to Mother
Tom
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:49:34 EDT
From:          Bonnie Ann
Subject:      Burning question

I have a burning question, that I'm sure has been covered previously. Nonetheless, I must ask it.  Surely the campfire you found, as well as other signs of habitation, or bodies even, would have been easily found in the days or weeks after the disappearance.  So why wasn't it?  Was this island not searched at all?  Did nobody back in 1937 think to look there?

***************************************************************

From Ric

The U.S. Navy looked there one week after Earhart disappeared, but they only did it from the air.  Nobody searched the island on the ground.  The Navy pilot who led the search flight reported that "..signs of recent habitation were clearly visible" but when nobody came out to wave he assumed that no one was there.  We don't know what it was that he saw, but we do know that the island had officially been uninhabited since 1892.

The first time anyone visited the island on the ground after Earhart disappeared was October 1937 (three months later).  A British Colonial Service officer noted in his diary that he came upon "signs of previous habitation." He is still alive, and when we asked him what he had seen and where he had seen it, he indicated the same part of the island where we found the campfire and said that "it looked like someone had bivouacked there for the night."
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:11:17 EDT
From:          Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Antennas again

Just when I had started to feel comfortable that the belly wire is most likely the sense antenna for the DF function of the receiver, I literally woke up in the middle of the night with an uncomfy realization. To wit:

That antenna was there long before there was any DF capability aboard the airplane.  Just so that I'm not the only one whose sleep is disturbed, here's a brief chronology of the airplane's known antennas and radio gear:

July 1936 - The airplane is delivered to AE with the belly wire antenna installed and a trailing wire antenna which deploys from the tip of the tail just below the nav light.  The trailing wire comes standard with all Electras. According to Lockheed sales literature dated 5/1/36, " The antenna is of the trailing type of fixed length.  It has been found by test that the standard mast type antenna, in the case of a clean airplane like the Electra, means a sacrifice of approximately 7 miles per hour in speed, whereas the effect of the trailing type is negligible." This implies that the trailing wire was intended for both sending and receiving.  so what was Amelia's belly antenna for?  The airplane was delivered with no loop antenna so it can't be a sense antenna at that time.

October 1936 - The new Bendix Radio Compass (ADF) invented by Fred Hooven is installed on the Electra.  The radio itself is mounted on the forward starboard fuselage tank just behind the cockpit bulkhead.  The loop is housed in a translucent fairing on top of the fuselage roughly amidships.  A second belly antenna (almost certainly the sense antenna) is installed on the port side running parallel to the original one on the starboard side.  The trailing wire is still in place.

February 1937 - The dorsal vee appears during preparations for the first world flight attempt.  Shortly thereafter, the trailing wire is relocated from the tail to deploy through a mast extending from the belly just forward of the cabin door.

March 1937 - In the first week of March the Radio Compass fairing disappears and is replaced by the open loop over the cockpit.  Both belly antennas remain in place.

On March 20th both belly antennas and the trailing wire mast are destroyed when the airplane slams onto the runway at Luke Field.

May 1937 - When the airplane emerges from the repair shop at Burbank, the trailing wire is gone, the port side belly antenna (sense antenna?) is gone, the good ol' starboard side belly antenna is still there and the loop antenna is unchanged, but the dorsal vee has been lengthened by moving the mast forward a few feet.

Oddly, that starboard belly antenna is the one antenna that remains constant through all the various permutations.  What was it for?  It's too long to be a marker beacon antenna, as some have alleged.  Was it originally a Low Frequency Range antenna?  But wouldn't the trailing wire be better for that? And get this; I can find photos of other Model 10s with a dorsal vee, but I can't find any other Electra with a wire antenna on the belly except one currently-airworthy 10A which has a short belly wire which is probably a marker beacon antenna.

Bottom line:  That starboard belly wire on NR16020 was not always a sense antenna (if it ever was), was present from the time of delivery until the airplane disappeared (except for the accident), and seems to have been unique to that particular airplane.  Any ideas?

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:11:26 EDT
From:          Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Skull Identification

Tired of ping pong balls?  Here's some important research that needs doing.

Included later in this message is a list of five tasks we need to accomplish before we can proceed with the biometric skull comparison.  Please look them over and let me know if you would like to work on any of them.

As most of you already know, the detailed measurements made of the bones found on Nikumaroro in 1940 give us the opportunity to make forensic comparisons with existing photos of Earhart and Noonan.  With the help of Jeff Glickman and his forensic imaging lab at Photek, Inc. in Hood River, Oregon, we should be able to make a quantified judgment as to whether the skull found on the island could be, or definitely was not, that of either Earhart or Noonan.

Please note: The results of this research could have such a profound impact upon our investigation that we have decided to delay the publication of the Eighth Edition of the Project Book rather than put out information which might immediately become obsolete.

A mailing will go out to all TIGHAR members this week with the details of how the skull comparison project is being conducted.  That same information has just been mounted on the TIGHAR website. Go to

http://www.tighar.org

then go to The Earhart Project and click on Research Bulletins.  There, in a bulletin entitled "Skull-duggery",  you'll see the four photos we have selected to use for the skull comparison.

We must now accurately scale the photos.  That means finding something in each photograph the dimensions of which we can accurately establish and which is, as closely as possible, in the same plane with the subject's head.

Here are the specifics of what we need. (Again, these refer to the photos you can see on the website.)

TASK 1: Photo No.1 is a full-face shot of Amelia standing beside a Lockheed Vega.
We need to get the height and width of the tire on the Vega, and the diameter of the wheel.  Caution:  Vegas came with at least two types of wheels - big skinny ones and smaller fat ones.  These are the smaller fat ones. Unfortunately, the airplane in the photo does not appear to be the transatlantic airplane that is in the Smithsonian collection (couldn't be that easy).  This airplane appears to be NR965Y (later NC965Y), the Vega 5C Special she used for her Mexico City and Honolulu to Oakland flights.  Supposedly, this airplane was owned by Tallmantz Aviation in the 1960s.  It may still survive, but we may also be able to find another Vega with the same type of tires and wheels.  The wheel diameter will give us our best hard measurement, but the tire dimensions (even allowing for variations in inflation and aircraft weight) will also be useful.

TASK 2:  Photo No. 2 is a profile shot of AE standing behind the Electra which has had its tail hoisted up onto a wheeled cart (for swinging the compass?).
Our copy of this print is too fuzzy so we need a sharper print.  The original print is in the collection at Purdue University.  This is just a matter of getting the Purdue Library to make print from the original (a standard service they provide for a fee) or having an experienced photographer go there and take a sharp copy photo.

TASK 3:  Once we have a good copy of Photo No. 2 to work from, we need the tailwheel diameter for the Lockheed Model 10.  There are easily accessible Electras which could be measured at the New England Air Museum in Windsor Locks, CT ; at the Pima Air Museum in Tucson, AZ; and at the Western Aerospace
Museum in Oakland, CA.

TASK 4:  Photo No. 3 is an excellent full-face shot of Captain Noonan.  This is the Parker Pen photo discussed earlier on the forum. We have some good indications of what the measurement might be but we need someone to contact the Parker Pen Co. and enlist their help in identifying this particular type of pen and getting an accurate measurement for the clip.  Collecting classic fountain pens is a popular hobby and we understand that Parker has a considerable historical collection of their products.

TASK 5:  Photo No. 4 is a profile of Fred in front of the Electra's open cabin door.  The cabin door on NR16020 was unusual in that it had a window installed in it, but otherwise it seems to have been a normal Model 10 door.  We need the thickness of the door.   Again, Model 10s are accessible at the museums listed above.

If you'd like to take on any of these jobs please email me either privately or on the forum.  We may well end up with research teams working on individual tasks, such as we have on the Noonan Project.  The validity of the verdict on the skull will depend upon the accuracy of the measurements described above. Let's get it right.

Love to mother,
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:19:48 EDT
From:          Bob Sherman
Subject:      PRESSURE/ANT

While it is almost impossible to add to Vern's clear logic on atmospheric pressure & sense antenna's, I hesitantly add a bit of lore from a has been professional airman.  Ca. 1960 we began using  the SI ("Systeme Internationale) pressure unit, Bar, (eq. to 1 million dynes per sq. cm.).   We used millibars; sea level was 1013.25 mb. Upper air charts were also in mb's rather than feet.  Altimeters had both an HG inch & an mb adjustment window.  Flight Levels (18,000' & above) were predicated upon everyone using 1013.25 mb; everywhere.

The sense antenna was not a part of the original DF loop. According to Bill Lear he recognized a phase difference between a signal from the loop and a wire antenna, (for the range stations) related to whether the loop face was pointed toward or away from the station; ergo the birth of the ADF.  I'm sure the first ADF was manual, but adding a motor driven loop followed so soon, I doubt that manual ADF's were even marketed.  That turning an ADF to the loop position disconnected all auto features, incl. the sense antenna was probably due to the aviators Second Law,* which is, When something  happens immediately undo the last thing you did. It was the same for the retractable gear, hydraulic boosted controls, etc.  The disconnect jettisoned all science in favor of gravity and muscle.

(* The First Law is, Pull back for up.)

Note to Bob #902  Your observation that antennas entered the fuselage usually based upon where the most convenient and allowable entry was rather than where the equipment might be, was Right On. .  Aircraft engineers paid little heed to accessories, including autopilots.  They were added after the plane was built.  The Lockeed L-1011 Tristar was the first aircraft having the autopilot engineers working with the controls & structures group.  Its minimums for autoland (with auto go-around operable) were the lowest for any plane to date, and for a long time thereafter; zero ceiling & 700' viz.   An eyeopener for aircraft builders.

 So, the belly ant?  It was probably for her 200-1650 kc radio for low freq. ranges in the states, and doubled as a sense ant. for her ADF.  Thus if she had the ADF receiver removed because of weight, the ant could be left for range use since it weighed very little and was not much of a drag item.  Maybe it could have been used with her DF loop as well.   RC  #941
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:34:39 EDT
From:          AE Stewart
Subject:      Re: How many Noonans?

I'm in Ireland for the next two months. Doing nothing except listening to the Bran Van 3000 album. Waiting for a piece of blue paper to come back from the Department of Education so I can attempt to get a $30000 loan so I can go to film school in London.

Now, you might have gathered that I'm really bored. Any research I can do over here on Noonan? As telling Americans what their roots are is a cottage industry in Ireland, there's a chance I might be able to turn up something. Very unscientific, but my girlfriend (who is Irish) just said offhand that Noonan is a Kerry surname, which basically means Fred was more than likely a descendant of sailors or farmers; or a combination of both. You haven't lived until you've seen the unspoilt, gorgeous shores of Kerry - and had your sunbathing interrupted by cows sprinting in the surf.

Will do some more digging... Anything specific you'd like me to hunt for? I wish I could join Tighar as a member, and pay to receive the print edition, but I'm severely financially challenged right now - so maybe this can make up for leeching your information every day without being able to give anything back.

Oh, and I presume Randy was speaking rhetorically, but there is no Illinois parish in Ireland. Illinois, I'm almost certain, is a Native American word.

BTW, as a trivial footnote - a few months ago I had the pleasure of talking to Ralph B. White, one of Ballard's crew who found the Titanic, and who has the record for number of dives to that wreck. He showed me illustrations by an engineer who proposed at one point that several billion ping pong balls be placed within the Titanic to raise it - this was before the wreck was found. And that's the last thing I'm going to say about ping pong balls.


AE Stewart
***************************************************************

From Ric

Well, for places to cool your heels it's hard to beat Ireland (unless you can get over to Scotland).  But then, as a Stewart, you probably know that.

Tracking Fred in Ireland will be pretty tricky.  Assuming that the 1893 Illinois Fred is our boy, I would expect that he was first or second generation potato-famine Irish.  I would also guess that any number of Noonans emigrated to America from various counties in those years.  The records in Ireland are not likely to show where they settled in the States.

Wish there was more that could realistically be done.  Have a Guiness.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:56:08 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: How many Noonans?

Ric wrote:

>My take on this is that we have one Fred Noonan who was born in Cook County,
>Illinois on April 4, 1893.  Was a sailor from roughly 1908 to 1930.  Moved to
>New Orleans in 1920.  Married Josephine Sullivan in 1927.  Went to work for
>Pan American in 1930. etc., etc.

Yes, we have one Fred Noonan who says he was born in Cook County, etc., etc. The Noonan mythology has him doing at least part of that sailing under the English flag.  I think the mythology has him studying navigation at some London school.

It's just enough to make me wonder if the reason we don't find a birth certificate may be that he was not born in this country but, for whatever reasons, claimed Chicago as his birth place, and also saw fit to change the dates.  I suspect it would not have been difficult for a seaman to enter the country by other than legal means, and just stay.  Going to work for Pan Am could probably be managed with a little creativity.  Jackie's Fred just may be more than coincidence.  Learning to speak "American" might be the greatest challenge!

***************************************************************

From Ric

Yes, "our" Fred has some alleged British connections but the earliest one is his signing aboard the British merchant ship Crompton in 1910.  Jackie Ferrari says he gave his birthplace as Illinois in those papers.  If he was really a British subject, why would he claim to be a Yank when signing aboard a British ship?  Doesn't make sense to me.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:01:13 EDT
From:          Bob Sherman
Subject:      Homing on the Range

Ric wrote

> That antenna was there long before there was any DF capability aboard
>
> Oddly, that starboard belly antenna is the one antenna that remains constant
> through all the various permutations.  What was it for? Any ideas?

As previously mentioned,  the standard radio range antenna for her stateside navigation.  The length required for 200 - 400kc reception was not critical.  Just as the low band radio remained, so did the antenna; apparently until leaving Lae.   Following two engines, the radio range was the next most important piece of equip.   Cheers,  RC
**************************************************************

From Ric

Could the trailing wire be used to receive the range?  If so, why would she install a separate antenna for that purpose?  Photos of Northwest Airlines' fleet of Electras from that time period show no belly antennas.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:04:39 EDT
From:          Tom Robison
Subject:      TV

Looking at my TV guide for July 2nd, I don't see anything that suggests a documentary about Amelia. Is it perhaps on their "ABC Thursday Night" program?

Granted, my notoriously inaccurate TV listing could be wrong.

Tom
***************************************************************

From Ric

Yup.  That's it.  I remember now that the producer said that it might be listed as simply ABC Thursday Night.  How's that for a generic name for a show?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:13:49 EDT
From:          Jack
Subject:      Re: antennas again

Para. May 1937 when the L-10E emerges from the Burbank repair facility. You said the port antenna was gone and the ol' starboard side belly antenna was still there.

I have a photo (just received from a friend) from the San Francisco Chronicle dated Friday January 27, 1989 . The article was written by Staff Writer Jack Viets and mentions after 52 years someone ( that someone was Elgen Long a retired airline pilot) was a step closer to solving the AE/FN disappearance. You're probably aware of his crashed at sea theory. The photo shows AE and FN climbing into the a/c after a stop in Puerto Rico. It's a frontal shot and I can see two white antenna stand-offs on the belly just back of the nose lights. Its a copy of a news article so the picture is not that great.

The starboard antenna appears to have some insulators near the stand-off which would support an antenna  but the port side is not quite clear. It could be just the stand-off and no antenna or poor quality of the photo. Also a good shot of the DF loop just above the cockpit.

You want the photo?

Regards,
Jack, 2157
***************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks, but we have that photo.  Those two "antenna standoffs" you see are the two chin pitot tubes which also served as forward anchors for the belly antenna(s).  Both pitots, of course, are present, regardless of the antenna set-up.  You see an insulator on the starboard pitot but not on the port one because there's an antenna on the starboard side but not on the port side.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:38:49 EDT
From:          Ann
Subject:      TV show

Thank you for calling our attention to the tv program to be aired on 7/2.  The local paper here(Cincinnati area) shortens the name to a mere Thursday Night.  I would have missed it for sure.

Ann 2101
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:58:24 EDT
From:          Bob Sherman
Subject:      ON THE TRAIL(ing wire)

RE:  NWA's trailing wire ant & could it be used for the range?

Almost any wire could be used for a radio range, IF it was or could be connected to the 200-400 recvr.  The trailing wire ant. was primarily intended for long range communication.

I can't imagine why NWA (Northwest Airlines) would use them because each range station xmited voice on the range freq. & recvd. on 3105 & 6210. The range operator then called ATC on the phone, thus relaying position reports & clearances.  Maybe the t.w.ant. was used for company comm.  All of the large airlines had their own company radio that was used for ATC relay whenever possible.  We used the nearest range station (called, 'name-radio') whenever we couldn't raise the company radio. Thus we never used t.w. ant's.   RC
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:02:28 EDT
From:          Chris Greenberg
Subject:      Noonan Project

Sandy and the Noonan Project-

I'd be thrilled to assist in the Noonan research here in Los Angeles.  I believe it was last week that Sandy wrote:

>>Anybody wanna tackle the Noonan summary?
>
>Jerry....???  I think you have more of the organizers knack here....
>Unfortunately, I see us as still stuck at the same point..!  Although
>records in LA may hold some clues.

If someone can give me a quick update as to what exactly we're looking for and kind of an idea where to start, I'll do so with all haste.  I'll check the forum for a reply and can be reached directly at  chris@visionart.com.

Look forward to hearing from ya'll.

Good luck and godspeed.
Chris Greenberg-
**************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks Chris.  Sandy?  Got some work in LA for Chris?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:21:51 EDT
From:          Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Noonan Jackpot

Six feet one-quarter inch, blue eyes, 163 pounds, auburn hair, and a ruddy complexion. That's our Fred. At least in 1917.

We're getting closer folks! Just received a packet of information detailing Fred's maritime service from US National Archive records. It contains a veritable gold mine of data regarding his sea service. There is a Seaman's Certificate Of American Citizenship (including application papers) issued in 1917, with passport size photo's and a left thumb print. Part of this material indicates that he missed his ship which left for Europe without him and was torpedoed and sank "and everything was lost including my passport". It includes a listing of all the vessels he sailed on. There are copies of what look to be his maritime licenses, the last issued to him in 1936 in California. There are also various service record papers from the US Shipping Board, Emergency Fleet Corporation, again with listings of all his past ships. Regarding his genealogy, the citizenship materials confirm his birth as April 4, 1893 in Chicago. He indicates both parents (Joseph T. and Catherine) are deceased at this time. Fred says his father was born in Maine and his mother in London, England. No indication of other siblings. I'm writing this after just a cursory overview of this information. It's going to take at least a few weeks to thoroughly digest. There is a tremendous amount of detail. I'll forward copies of all to TIGHAR.

very blue skies, jham (#2128)
***************************************************************

From Ric

YEEEHAH!  Way to go Jerry!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:28:13 EDT
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      How many Noonans?

Ric wrote:

>Yes, "our" Fred has some alleged British connections but the earliest one is
>his signing aboard the British merchant ship Crompton in 1910.  Jacki Ferrari
>says he gave his birthplace as Illinois in those papers.  If he was really a
>British subject, why would he claim to be a Yank when signing aboard a British
>ship?  Doesn't make sense to me.

Pretty well shoots down my ideas of an English Fred ending up with AE. Guess I haven't been paying enough attention to progress on the Noonan Project!

Too bad.  It would have been good in the movie.  Oh, well... With a Hollywood-like penchant for accuracy, we can use it anyway!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:29:27 EDT
From:          Sam Ginder
Subject:      Eugene Pallette

Gott in Himmel, ze jig ees upp!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:32:53 EDT
From:          Sam Ginder
Subject:      Re: How many Noonans.

WHO IS DICK STRIPPEL?

************************************************************

From Ric

Somebody want to brief Sam and other new subscribers on Dick Strippel?  I don't think I'm strong enough.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:51:56 EDT
From:          Harold Mendelson
Subject:      TV show

Thanks for the advance  information regarding ABC's program on your expedition.  Here in Tallahassee, Florida  it is scheduled to air this Thursday night at 10 PM EDT

You might be interested to know that just as I was programming my VCR to record it,  I happened on the last 4 minutes of Discovery Channel's "Unsolved Mysteries" on the disappearance  of a French plane attempting to cross the Atlantic just before Lindberg's successful flight.  I would have liked to have seen it all.  Are you still wearing a moustache?

I hope you and/or others on the Forum try to keep us informed of TV listings of similar programs.  I'm sure most of us would be interested.

Harold Mendelson
No. 2082
***************************************************************

From Ric

Geesh.  That Unsolved Mysteries piece was shot in about 1987.  Ancient history now.

Yeah, the moustache is still there.  Wish I still looked that young.

I do my best to alert everyone about upcoming TV shows but unless they call me ahead of time (as ABC recently did) I never know when something is going to be rebroadcast.  I can tell you that it's a pretty weird experience to be channel surfing and happen upon an interview with yourself.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:50:37 EDT
From:          Sam Ginder
Subject:      Re: burning question

Did he say anything about seeing the wreckage of the plane on the reef? If he did see the remains of AE's and FN's campsite that means they didn't survive long; not even for three months. Would they have had any way to make fresh water? As a wild guess, what do you think happened to them if indeed they did end up on Gardner, which sounds very plausible to me. What might the British colonial officer who visited Gardner three months after AE disappeared speculate happened to the people who were at the campsite? If he's still alive, he should be a fountain of information.

***************************************************************

From Ric

The Navy's aerial search saw no airplane or wreckage but did report "signs of recent habitation" but it seems unlikely that the reference is to the minimal campsite under the trees later discovered by Gallagher.  As far as we know AE and FN would have had no way to make fresh water.

we too think that it's very plausible that they ended up on Gardner and we hope that our speculations about what became of them are more than wild guesses. If you'll read some of the background material on the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org you'll get a feel for the work that has been done on this subject.

Yes, both of the colonial service officers who visited Gardner in October of 1937 (Harry Maude and Eric Bevington) are still alive and have been, as you say, a fountain of information.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:57:30 EDT
From:          Bob Sherman
Subject:      Trailing wires

An older guy who predated me flew the DC-2  He said that they had a trail. wire ant. in the tail cone, operated by a button in the cockpit, used with their two freq., day - nite, company radio.

(He said that a spare was also in the tail cone because landing with one trailing usually resulted in a torn off wire).   They were not in the DC-3's that I flew.  Probably had better radios by that time.   RC
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:02:40 EDT
From:          Tom Robison
Subject:      Noonan Project question

The various web pages of genealogy-related sites on the Internet have some pretty sophisticated national search engines nowadays.

This may seem like an elementary question, but has anyone simply gone to a genealogical site and done a name search for Fred Noonan?

http://www.usgenweb.org/
http://www.citynet.net/mostwanted/
http://www.gensource.com
http://www.rootsweb.com/

and here is the site for the National archives
http://www.nara.gov/genealogy/genindex.html

The results might be surprising.

I can do this myself, if you want, but as I said, it seems so elementary to me that I assume someone has already done it.

(Y'all know what that word ASSUME does, however.)

Tom
****************************************************************

From Ric

How about it Noonan Project stalwarts?  Have you been down that road?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:09:39 EDT
From:          Jim Kelly
Subject:      Parker Pen research

Having waded thru the forums feeling helpless in terms of doing things, I'll volunteer to get the Parker Pen data, if indeed the museum is located in Janesville WI. Let me know what you need and get me the pictures and away we'll go.
Jim Kelly
#2085
**************************************************************
From Ric

Thank you.  The job is yours. I'll send you a print of the photo via snailmail along with a couple of back issues of TIGHAR Tracks for you to use in introducing the Parker people to the wonderful world of Earhart research.  Let me know whatever other support you may need.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:18:37 EDT
From:          Vern Klein  
Subject:      Re: antennas again

Ric wrote:

>Just when I had started to feel comfortable that the belly wire is most likely
>the sense antenna for the DF function of the receiver, I literally woke up in
>the middle of the night with an uncomfy realization. To wit: .........

You had to open this can of worms!  This is the sort of thing I said I would think about some more before posting anything.  Stalling was what I was doing!

With what we have to go on, I don't think we can guess what that belly antenna was used for.  It may very well NOT have been used as a sense antenna.  Although we see AE pictured with the Bendix loop and the "coupling unit" that resolves the 180 degree ambiguity electronically, she may not have elected to use the whole rig.  She may have installed only the loop. Keeping it simple.

She just needed a switch to connect the loop to the receiver instead of (presumably) the Vee antenna.  The ambiguity is not that difficult to resolve.   As has been discussed at some length, it just takes a little flying around and observing how the bearing changes.  That would have seemed simple to the people tinkering with her radios and advising her -- any fool can do it.  It may not have been so simple for AE.  Not that it mattered in the end.

That belly antenna was there from the start, maybe not always in the same service.  May it have been retained as a back-up antenna in case the primary antenna, trailing wire or Vee, should fail -- break or be inoperative for any reason at all?  Maybe there was a switch.

As of the second attempt, may it have actually have been her receiving antenna, not the Vee?  If so, and if it was lost at Lae, it would fit that scenario of nothing heard until she switched to the loop.  I think there is the possibility that the Vee was not being used for both transmit and receive.  Not what we expect but we can't be sure.

The only problem I can see with that is giving up the ability to ground the input of the receiver when transmitting.  They could have rigged a simple, manual "disconnect and ground" switch at the receiver.  Then you have to throw that switch before hitting the "talk" button.  Maybe they didn't trust that relay in the transmitter.  Or maybe grounding the receiver was not seen as a problem.  The transmitting antenna is on top, the receiving antenna on the bottom.  Metal airplane in between for shielding -- to a degree.  I'm dubious about that but one might get away with it.

I don't see why a dedicated antenna (belly) would have been used for the radio range signals.  The little information I have at hand says any receiving arrangement is suitable so long as it can tune the frequencies needed.  I believe the WE receiver does that and the Vee antenna should have been at least as good as the belly antenna. We are talking about the "A and N" kind of radio range system, are we not?

And I expect we could dream up some other possible antenna arrangements. But I have no good answer to the question of why that belly antenna was unique to AE's Electra and why it stayed there through all the many variations.  Maybe it's not a technically rational reason.  Maybe AE had a fondness for that antenna.  It has served me well all this time.  I want to keep it.
**************************************************************

From Ric

I agree.  The best we're going to get regarding the belly antenna is "informed speculation" until we find the darned wreck and see for ourselves.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:21:43 EDT
From:          Don Jordan
Subject:      LA research on Noonan

Chris Greenberg writes:

>If someone can give me a quick update as to what exactly we're looking for and
> kind of an idea where to start, I'll do so with all haste.  I'll check the
> forum for a reply and can be reached directly at  chris@xxxxx

How about trying to find out anything on Eugene Pallette.  I'd like to see the Obit when he died.  I think he died in Sept of 54... I think.  It was on the forum.  Contact me for an explanation if needed.

Don (2109)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:47:28 EDT
From:          Hugh Graham
Subject:      Re: ON THE TRAIL(ing wire)

I am no expert in radio communications, but a question comes to mind regarding A.E.'s wisdom.  Please correct me where I am wrong.

My understanding is that the Itasca support ship could only do direction finding in the 200kc to 400kc spectrum, which is understandable since these radio freq's are the only ones that will penetrate water, thus the line-of-sight xmission is extended.  I understand that the trailing wire antenna, being long will best resonate(tune) to the lowest(200-400kc) radio freq's.  Why then, would an intelligent individual like A.E. remove the trailing wire ant. when it weighed little and the drag was negligible, when she knew that she had to fly 2,000 miles over water and land on a 6 sq. mi.? dot in the ocean?

She also left behind flour bags to drop to measure wind drift didn't she?

She also couldn't operate her own direction finder in the Electra, right?

She also had no backup radio, did she?  And her radio was failing on prior legs of the round-the-world flight, didn't it.  Just imagine the vibration from the over-sized 1400cubic inch Pratt&Whitneysthat the radio tube filaments had to withstand.

In other words, why do we insist on calling this a mystery??  Hugh Graham.

****************************************************************

From Ric

The mystery is what happened to Earhart after she disappeared.  That's what we're trying to find out.  There is, I agree, not so much mystery about why she disappeared, although you and I may not be in complete agreement about the reasons.

Your understanding of radio frequencies and what they do is different from mine but I'm not at all sure that the trailing wire would have done her any good if she had had it. If the receiving problem was really a bad relay (as we now suspect), then it would have made no difference whether the relay went to the dorsal vee or to a trailing wire. Had she had the trailing wire she could have transmitted efficiently on 500 kc and the Itasca could have taken DF bearings on her.  However, without the ability to hear their instructions about which way to turn, it wouldn't have done her any good.  On the other hand, they would have had a better idea about where to go looking for her.

>She also left behind flour bags to drop to measure wind drift didn't she?

Not that I ever heard of.  There were some aluminum powder bombs especially for that use, but I don't know that that they weren't aboard.

>She also couldn't operate her own direction finder in the Electra, right?

It is true that we know of no instance in which Amelia successfully used her DF by herself.

>She also had no backup radio, did she?  And her radio was failing on prior
>legs of the round-the-world flight, didn't it.

True on both counts, but how about that flying fool Lindbergh who flew 3,700 miles with no radio at all?

My point is that it's easy to be critical in the 20/20 hindsight of the flight's failure.  My view, having studying this accident for ten years, is that it was caused by Earhart's lack of sufficient familiarity with her radio equipment to overcome some malfunctions.  Given the circumstances, I don't think she could have found Howland no matter what the Itasca did.  But I also think that the many mistakes made aboard the Itasca significantly obstructed an accurate appreciation of her situation and operated against a successful search and rescue.
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Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:53:50 EDT
From:          Sandy Campbell
Subject:      On-line genealogy

Appreciate the input..., but, been there; done that.  We *are* on top of it... Thanks.

Sandy
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Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:55:38 EDT
From:          Chris Greenberg
Subject:      Pallette Research

Don-

refresh my memory.  Eugene Pallette was the character actor that Fred wrote to here in Los Angeles, correct?

I think I read forum posting by Jim Tierney and Michael Strickland concerning Pallette's film career, but I can't remember what the name of the hotel was that he called his residence during the last flight when Noonan mailed him.  Probably not important.

In any event, I'll look into the obituary tomorrow.  I'm gonna start searching the LA libraries for information on Noonan, AE and Putnam.

I'll keep ya'll posted of any findings.

Let me know if there's anything else that I can so.

Good luck to all and blue skies-

Chris-
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Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:57:41 EDT
From:          Don Jordan
Subject:      Re: Noonan Jackpot

I'm glad someone is getting some where.  Good job!  I'm stuck in the mud with the Noonan Letters.  I haven't given up yet.  "He" said to call him this week.

Don