Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 07:28:36 EST Subject: RE: Astro-navigation 1937 style From: Randy Jacobson I believe I can answer part of your questions, based upon the actual charts Noonan and Harry Manning used while going from Oakland to Honolulu in March. Typically, two stars were used to determine position, with each star approximately 90 degrees in azimuth from one another. Given only one side window in the fuselage of the plane, this may explain some anecdotal stories that Harry Manning was a real pain, because he was in and out of the cockpit quite a bit, probably getting star sights directly ahead of the plane, whereas the sights to the side of the plane were made in the back. Why not more stars? The idea of navigation is to monitor where you are, and absolute precision is not necessary, only good to 10 miles or so. Two quality star sights can give you that precision. Occasionally, FN and HM would make a couple of sightings within a half hour or so, to double-check their readings. All together on that flight, there were less than a dozen actual fixes. There is no evidence on any charts of any wind vector determinations. Cheers. ============================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:38:12 EST Subject: Re: Battery From: Frank K There were two 12 volt batteries (fwd) on the Finch bird, and we had the aft battery location as well. (on the aft side of the aft bulkhead, left hand side.) LTM Frank K ============================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:57:37 EST Subject: Earhart Memorial on Canton Island From: Harold Mendelson The Earhart Forum is easily worth my entire year's subscription to TIGHAR. Thanks, Ric, for setting it up. I, too, am fascinated with the AE mystery -- perhaps because during WWII I was stationed at Lae, New Guinea (where she took off) and also was stationed on Canton Island (only 200 miles from her destination Howland Island). I spent almost the entire year of 1942 on Canton, and was most interested to find a coral rock monument that had been erected in his memory. This was in 1942, just 5 years after her disappearance. I wonder who put it up. I was driving on the 26-mile perimeter road around the entire island, and as I recall, it was located on the seaward side somewhere near the southernmost part of the island. To the best of my memory, it was perhaps 8 to 10 feet high and was built like a chimney with a ladder or steps inside leading to the top. There was a metal plaque attached to it stating that Canton is in the vicinity of where she went down. So far I've been lucky enough to have been in contact with two inviduals who were stationed on Canton during the war, and would be most interested in locating anyone else who has been there. You may contact me at: Harold D Mendelson ============================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:00:42 EST Subject: Gardner? From: Daa390 What was the first real clue(s) you had in determining that Earhart and Noonan made landfall at Gardner? I find it very interesting that no one (in the past) ever seemed to really know what Earhart was talking about when she said they were on 157-337.I had read in several accounts that people didn't understand what this meant. Didn't anyone know what Amelia's contingency plan was if she couldn't find Howland? ============================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:59:56 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Memorial Gosh, I'd never heard of an Earhart Memorial on Canton. There was an Earhart Memorial Light erected on Howland. Anybody else ever hear of an Earhart memorial on Canton? Ric ============================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:56:50 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Clues and Contingencies Daa390 asks: >What was the first real clue(s) you had in determining that Earhart and Noonan >made landfall at Gardner? I find it very interesting that no one (in the past) >ever seemed to really know what Earhart was talking about when she said they >were on 157-337.I had read in several accounts that people didn't understand >what this meant. Didn't anyone know what Amelia's contingency plan was if she >couldn't find Howland? The first clue we had was the navigational logic of a landfall at Gardner. That was first explained to us by TIGHAR members Tom Gannon and Tom Willi in 1988. As we dug into the historical record we discovered that, contrary to your impression (and ours at the time), the liklihood of the Earhart having landed at one of the islands of the Phoenix Group, especially Gardner, was well recognized in 1937. The very same navigational logic and the significance of the 157/337 line, as laid out for us by Gannon and Willi in 1988, is written out in the report of Capt. Wilhelm Friedell of the USS Colorado in 1937. We're not investigating a new Earhart theory. We're re- investigating the oldest Earhart theory. As for a contingency plan, any good pilot or navigator has one but neither Earhart or Noonan apparently discussed it or left a record of it with anyone we know of. It is said that Earhart, at some time when she was still back in the States, said that if she was unable to find Howland she could always turn back and land on a beach in the Gilbert Islands. In reality, that wouldn't have worked because: a. She wouldn't have enough gas to get back to the Gilberts. b. You can't fly to a known destination from an unknown point. You can, however, fly from an unknown point on a known line, along which are known to be several possible destinations. Ric ============================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:07:11 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Earhart Project Archaeologist This posting is admittedly just to show that we run in classy company. The Project Archaeologist for TIGHAR's investigation of the Earhart disappearance has just been recognized by the establishment of the award described below. We always knew that Tom was a great guy but it's nice to see it made official. Congratulations Tom. Ric ************************************************************* The Thomas F. King Award for Excellence in Cultural Resources Management The Society for California Archaeology is honored to recognize Dr. Thomas F. King by the establishment of this award. Tom is recognized as a founding father of cultural resources management not only in this state but throughout the United States. His personal commitment to the preservation of the past, as well as his personal sacrifices, has made cultural resources management a significant player in the overall world of environmental studies. Since the passage of the National Environmental Policy Act in 1969 and the California Environmental Quality Act in 1970, hundreds of young men and women have made their livelihoods through identifying, managing, and resolving conflicts about cultural resources. Without Tom's vision, dedication, and sacrifice, many of us would not have the opportunity for careers in this field--a field that is still growing and, we hope, involving people who have chosen it because they want to make a difference and because of lessons learned through or because of Tom's national stature and leadership. Tom is homegrown; he is a founding member of the Society for California Archaeology and has served as an elected official on the Board, including time as the President of the Society. He left teaching and private consulting in California to coordinate archaeological contract work for the New York Archaeological Council. He then moved to Washington, D. C. with the National Park Service, and then to the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands (Micronesia) where he was chief of staff to the "State" Historic Preservation Officer. Returning to the United States in 1979, he served with the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation for the tumultuous decade of the 1980s. With his wife, cultural anthropologist Patricia Parker, he was largely responsible for defining "traditional cultural properties" as a particular kind of historic place that must be dealt with in planning. Early on, he saw the worthiness of working with Indian tribes and individuals to develop a partnership, which has become the accepted way of doing cultural resources management in the United States. This award honors him as a stalwart of his time, as a living legend, a founding father, a spiritual inspiration for all of us in the field of cultural resources management. Nominees for this award must: 1. Be a member in good standing of the Society for California Archaeology; 2. Be nominated by a peer who is also a member in good standing; 3. Have conducted outstanding work in the field of Cultural Resources Management, either as a career or in the form of an individual accomplishment; 4. Examples of such work include (but are not limited to): * Meaningful involvement of indigeneous and other minority communities in cultural resources management; * Mediation of conflicts between modern land use and preservation of culturally important places or traditions; * Excellent applied interdisciplinary work, involving not only archaeology but such fields as planning, ethnography, architectural history, and sociology; * Development of innovative approaches to resource identification, protection, or management; * Development of a creative, effective, academic, community or private sector cultural resources management program; * Creation of a major piece of intellectual property dealing with resource management; * Have been innovative in an approach to data recovery, data management; * Have been instrumental in decisions to preserve important resources for their cultural values, especially those at risk of loss, over a period of time; * and/or have developed a specific program to enhance the preservation of California's heritage. The work for which an individual is nominated must show outstanding leadership in the field of cultural resources management, and be work of a kind that would honor the career of Dr. Thomas F. King. Please send nominations to Russell L. Kaldenberg, Committee Chair, c/o Bureau of Land Management, 2135 Butano Drive, Sacramento, CA 95825; telephone 916-978-4635; fax 916-978-4657; e-mail rkaldenb@blm.gov. Nominations are due to the committee by February 1 of each year but for 1998 they are due no later than March 1. C. Kristina Roper Society for CA Archaeology Sierra Valley Cultural Planning 4471 N. Fruit Ave. Fresno, CA 93705 (209) 224-0201 ============================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:13:37 EST Subject: Fascinating From: Dave Kelly As a student pilot i find all the discussions on AE's dissapearance fascinating, i am especially intrigued by the navigation methods used at the time.....Can someone direct me to where i may be able to learn more about these, particularly astronavigation techniques e.g. period books etc.....and can someone tell me what the LOP system of navigation is (i dont have a copy of the early TIGHAR publication which explained it). Regards David Kelly -- ============================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:14:29 EST Subject: Memorial on Canton From: Alfred Hall I was on the "Navy Side" of Canton and located in the old Pan Am building. We normally went to the Army side at the airstrip to pick up mail from the Army Post Office by small boat across the lagoon. A couple of times I went the long way around the Island. I recall my companion on the one of the trips calling my attention to a large pile of coral on the seaward side. He said there was a rumor that Japanese were holed up somewhere in the area supposedly survivors of a bombing run late in the war. I doubted the story but nevertheless never stopped to check it out so I didn't see it close up, but I do remember the pile of coral at the far end of the Island. I suspect a tropical storm may have flattened the memorial that Mendelson spoke of. Maybe the rubble is still there? Al Hall ============================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:18:58 EST From: Bob Williams Subj: Canton Memorial Hi Ric, I have heard several of my fellow Pan Am employees, who were on Canton during WWII, mention the Earhart Memorial. I always thought that it was general knowledge. Bob Williams ============================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:20:01 EST Subject: Memorial II From: Bob Williams Hi Ric, The more I think about it, I have a vague recollection of hearing that it was Pan Am that erected the Earhart Monument on Canton. Pan American was flying into Canton, prior to WWII, using Boeing B-314 flyingboats on their way down to New Zealand. I will try to contact some of the oldtimers and get more info on it. While you are down there, if you have the time, it would be nice if you can find it. Regards Bob Williams ============================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:40:40 EST Subject: Re: Memorial From: Jim Tierney Ric-- I dont personnally know much about Canton Island but I do have a few reference books... I will do some more looking and get back to you.... However- in the newly published-1997- "Pan American Pacific Pioneers" by Jon Krupnick-published by Pictorial Histories Publ. Co.-Missoula ,Montana--- There are two pictures on pages 172-173 of a stone lighthouse about 18-20 feet high dedicated to Captain Ed Musick and the crew of Samoan Clipper that wes lost in Jan 38.. There is a plaque on the wall with the legend..Latest picture was in 1995 and shows lighthouse with plaque.. The other picture from 1938 with men standing in front of it shows another rock cairn like marker in the background that could be another marker of something else... I personnally have never heard of any AE marker on Canton... If you want a copy of the pages of the book let me know... Obviously you will go looking when you are there........ Jim Tierney--------- Jim Tierney ============================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:45:38 EST Subject: Re: Clues and Contingencies From: Daa390 Dear Ric, As a followup to my last post: Once you figured out Gardner was a possiblity (as well as a few other islands) what was the first clue you had that led you to believe that Gardner was where Earhart made landfall? Thanks, Dean A. ============================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:44:31 EST Subject: Fwd: The Tarawa File From: Michelle Blankenship After reading about the Tarawa file on TIGHAR's website, I am curious about something. Does anyone know what happened to the bones that Dr. Isaac examined? Are they assumed lost because Tarawa was leveled during WW2? Also, along the same lines, assuming TIGHAR found bones on Gardner Island. Are there ways in which they could be positively identified as belonging to AE or Noonan, such as DNA testing? Are there any legal implications involved in this, such as permission from the families? I'm a new forum member from Atlanta. Thanks to Ric and all of TIGHAR for creating this forum. It's a fascinating subject! Michelle Blankenship ============================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:45:01 EST Subject: RE: Memorial From: Randy Jacobson There was an Eddie Musick memorial on Canton, but I believe it was at the lagoon entrance. ============================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:46:20 EST Subject: CANTON MEMORIAL From: William Moss I flew through Canton many times. First as a junior pilot on a PANAM B-314 in mid 1941, then many times in 1943 through 1945 as skipper of PBM's and PB2Y's operated for the Navy. I never heard of a memorial to Earhart there which I think I would have considering that I flew off the LEXINGTON searching for her in 1937. By the way, would like to get in touch via e-mail with BOB WILLIAMS to explore our mutual interest in PANAM. Regards BILL MOSS ============================================================ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:32:20 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Navigation Books Kent Spading's reply to David Kelly came through garbled. Here's a clean copy. I suspect that the garbling we're seeing on some of the postings is a result of messages being composed in other-than-email programs and then copied and pasted into email. When it comes to me for review and posting to the forum, it looks fine because that's a simple email transaction. But somehow when it gores through the list server for distribution to everybody it gets garbled. Just a theory. Then again, maybe it's a conspiracy. Ric ******************* David, For "period books" on the subject try: Navigation and Nautical Astronomy, United States Naval Institute, Annapolis Maryland, Commander Benjamin Dutton, U.S. Navy, 8th Edition, 1943. I have a copy of this. It was first printed was 1926. It decribes astronavigation, LOP, etc and includes a farily large section on aerial navigation. It is very well written. If you want to concentrate on aerial navigation try: Pratical Aerial Navigation, C.A.B. No. 24, Thoburn C. Lyon As with all old references, the trick is to find a copy. Obviously try the library. I picked mine up at a used book store. Kenton Spading St. Paul, MN ============================================================ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:06:30 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Ric's Replies 2/4/98 Based on the several postings we've had about the memorial on Canton, I strongly 'spect that the Musick Memorial has been, at times, mistakenly thought to honor Amelia Earhart. As a Amelia once said, "A pilot's a pilot." The locations and construction sound similar and I cannot think why anyone would build a memorial to AE on Canton. Dean A. asks: >Once you figured out Gardner was a possiblity >(as well as a few other islands) what was the first clue you had that led you >to believe that Gardner was where Earhart made landfall? The line of position suggested that Gardner and McKean were the most likely possibilities. The post-loss radio transmissions heard for a couple of days following the disappearance suggested that a safe landing had been made. When we first went out there in 1989 we visited McKean. There was nothing there to suggest that an airplane might ever have landed, or could ever have landed, on that God-forsaken, barren coral outcropping that is home to clouds of seabirds. Gardner was another story entirely. Not only was a safe landing obviously feasible but we found artifacts that were undeniably aircraft wreckage in the island's abandoned village. It would take us years to sort out which artifact's could be disqualified as WWII debris and which could not, but the presence of aviation wreckage on an island where we were quite sure no WWII airplane had ever crashed was the first clue thast made us feel that Gardner was worth further investigation. Michelle asks: >After reading about the Tarawa file on TIGHAR's website, I am curious >about something. Does anyone know what happened to the bones that Dr. >Isaac examined? Are they assumed lost because Tarawa was leveled during >WW2? It is apparent from the last messages in the file that Isaac eventually forwarded the bones on to Suva, Fiji and that they arrived safely. What happened to them then is a mystery. Suva escaped the war unharmed. So far, our efforts to locate the bones and artifacts in Suva has been unsuccessful. Incidentally, the survival of the file itself is remarkable given the destruction visited upon Tarawa. We can only assume that the file is, in fact, Gallagher's personal copies of the correspondence and that it survived because it remained on Gardner after his death in 1941 and was returned to colonial headquarters in Tarawa sometime after the war. >Also, along the same lines, assuming TIGHAR found bones on Gardner >Island. Are there ways in which they could be positively identified as >belonging to AE or Noonan, such as DNA testing? Are there any legal >implications involved in this, such as permission from the families? If we find bones (either the ones sent to Fiji in 1941 or others which may still be on Nikumaroro), it should be possible to make a DNA identification as to whether or not they are Earhart's. That is possible because there are living blood relatives in the female line. Noonan, unfortunately, is a different story. We know of no living blood relatives, male or female. Neither do we have dental records for Fred. Positive ID of his remains would probably require a fairly intact skull which could be computer-scaled to photographs of him while he was alive. As for family concerns, that would only become an issue once a positive ID was made. We would, of course, respect the wishes of next of kin regarding disposition of any positively identified remains. Until then, permission to remove bones from the island for testing would be sought from the government of the Repubic of Kiribati. Ric ============================================================ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:29:41 EST Subject: Lockheed on Kanton From: Mike Ruiz Can you tell me more about the Lockheed on Kanton? Thanks, Mike ============================================================ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:40:45 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Lockheeds on Kanton Mike asks: >Can you tell me more about the Lockheed on Kanton? Actually, we know of two Lockheeds that were wrecked on Kanton. The one you're referring to was a PV-1 Ventura (Lockheed Model 18) which apparently lost power on takeoff and bellied-in on the south side of the island. Forum subscriber Al Hall gave us a photo of himself sitting on the wreck right after the war. The other Lockheed wreck on Kanton is more recent and more serious. In 1962 an FAA Constellation crashed on Kanton with five fatalities. Ric ============================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:02:06 EST Subject: RE: Lockheeds on Kanton From: Randy Jacobson Could any of the airplane wreckage thought to have come from Earhart's plane be due to this PV-1? Does one know the year it was manufactured (my encyclopedia says production began in 1942). Can the aluminum skin thickness found in the artifacts be ruled out from this plane? ============================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:04:41 EST Subject: Fwd: Re: Lockheeds on Kanton From: Mike Ruiz Thank you. What is more likely, based on all the evidence, your experience, and your personal "gut" feeling: is the plane is covered up somewhere on land, in the lagoon, or washed out to the ocean? We think it is in the lagoon. How deep is the lagoon? I read you were not able to cover the whole Lagoon on your last search, what percentage of the lagoon were you able to cover? Thank you, we appreciate your prompt responses. Mike Ruiz ============================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:06:47 EST Subject: In the interest of accuracy From: Amanda Dunham This may be slightly off topic, but some messages lately have had assumptions about Amelia which disturbed me. Unfortunately, hearsay has combined with stereotyping over the years to make "fakelore," and many biographers have swallowed it whole. I've been studying Amelia's life story since I was 14 (ok, ok, for 22 years), and I have a B.A. in art history. Plus my grandfather was a pioneer aviator himself and helped me wade through any b.s. that passed for history. The best biography of Amelia so far is "The Sound of Wings" by Mary S. Lovell. Nobody beats her research, or her study of the period. You should also read "Whistled Like A Bird" by Sally Putnam Chapman. I know TIGHAR panned Lovell's disappearance appendix; it wasn't very good. My own theory is that Lovell added it at her editor's insistence. It must be tough to get a biography of AE published with out at least making a list of the theories. (I can imagine that somewhere GP is agreeing with the editors... I just hope he *haunts* the folks responsible for "I Was Amelia Earhart"!!!) As for the myth that George forced Amelia into a grueling work schedule, eventually exhausting her and contributing to her death: nonsense. Consider Amelia's college career. After volunteering as a nurses' aide during WWI, she decided to go pre-med. While taking a full class load at Columbia, she enrolled and took a full class load at another Manhattan med school. That's two, count them *two*, full pre-med programs *simultaneously*. She was a highly intelligent over-achiever long before she met GP. Ambition and drive were what they had in common. We now return you to the regular discussion. Good luck on Kanton! Amanda Dunham adunham@mail.arc.nasa.gov PS: If anyone on the list remembers Capt. Paul Lewis Carpenter from American Airways, American Airlines, or the Grey Eagles, please email me off-list. I'd love to hear from you. ============================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:27:00 EST Subject: Re: Lockheeds on Kanton From: Daa390 Dear Ric, I want to wish you and your expedition to Kanton good luck. I hope this will have a significant impact on this whole Amelia Earhart "mystery". Dean A. ============================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:26:11 EST Subject: Good Wishes From: Kirby Nunn Dear Richard: I wish to add my hopes that this year's expedition will bring final results to the AE mystery. I only wish I had the finances to accompany you on the trip. The very very best of luck.You all are overdue. Sincerely Kirby Nunn Tucson AZ ============================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:52:16 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: In the lagoon? Mike Ruiz and the NASA contingent ask: >What is more likely, based on all the evidence, your experience, >and your personal "gut" feeling: is the plane is covered up somewhere on >land, in the lagoon, or washed out to the ocean? >We think it is in the lagoon. How deep is the lagoon? There's nothing so hard to justify - or ignore - as a gut feeling. Mine is that the airplane got busted up pretty badly by waves breaking across the reef flat on the western end of the island and was distributed by the force of the surf to the places that the surf would naturally distributed it to. Lightwieght, buoyant pieces (fuel tanks, pieces of skin with insulation attached, etc.) would travel farthest and may have gone through the main passage, across the lagoon, and washed up on the opposite shore right where old Pulakai Songivalu says he saw wreckage in the late 1950s. Non-buoyant, but lightweight pieces (outer wing panels, cabin skins, the empennage) may have washed across the reef flat and either up into the shoreline vegetation or into the lagoon, depending on the specific direction of the storm(s). This process could well have taken years. Tapania says she saw a piece of a wing on the reef flat in the late 1950s or early 60s. The stuff that washed across the shallow ree flat and into the lagoon would have logically then sunk to the bottom (around 24 feet in that area) where it would be out of effect of wave action. It should still be there. We searched a very small percentage of the lagoon bottom last year and did no work at all anywhere near the main passage. The aircraft's center-section with the main spar and the engines (pretty much what seems to be shown in the wreck photo) would tend to hold together more than any other part of the airframe. Whether it ended up in the shoreline vegetation along the Nutiran beach or in the lagoon just inside the main passage would depend entirely upon the direction of the storm that put it there. Ric ============================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:26:04 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: AE's character Although perhaps a bit off the topic, Amanda Dunham's observations about AE's character are, in my opinion, right on target. I agree that Mary Lovell's book is the best of the biographies and it's a pity that she relied almost exclusively on Elgen Long for her information concerning the disappearance. On that subject, many of her otherwise well-referenced footnotes simply cite conversations with Mr. Long. I consider Elgen to be a good friend and always a gentleman, but we don't entirely agree on the facts of the case, let alone their interpretation. Ric ============================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:26:21 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Artifacts from the PV-1? Randy Jacobson asks: >Could any of the airplane wreckage thought to have come from Earhart's >plane be due to this PV-1? Does one know the year it was manufactured (my >encyclopedia says production began in 1942). Can the aluminum skin >thickness found in the artifacts be ruled out from this plane? The Lockheed PV-1 Ventura wrecked on Canton was probably manufactured in 1942 or 1943. Like all Lockheed Model 18s (the Ventura, the Harpoon, the Lodestar), this airplane was primarily flush-rivteted (meaning that the rivet heads were flush with the skin). The section of airplane skin found on Nikumaroro (TIGHAR Artifact 2-2-V-1) has one rivet intact. It is an AN455AD3/3 brazier head rivet, not a flush rivet. The Model 18 does have a few of these rivets (Lockheed seems to have liked them) back on the twin vertical fins but the thickness of skin, the pitch (space between rivets) and the pattern are nothing like the artifact. Ric ============================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:02:52 EST Subject: In the interest of accuracy From: Warren Schilling Amanda Dunham writes: > As for the myth that George forced Amelia into a grueling work schedule, > eventually exhausting her and contributing to her death: nonsense. > Consider Amelia's college career. After volunteering as a nurses' aide > during WWI, she decided to go pre-med. While taking a full class load at > Columbia, she enrolled and took a full class load at another Manhattan med > school. That's two, count them *two*, full pre-med programs > *simultaneously*. She was a highly intelligent over-achiever long before > she met GP. Ambition and drive were what they had in common. I'm not disagreeing. Just commenting. I'm relatively new to the discussion and definitely not an expert on her life. I surely can't judge her motivations. Why a pilot did something is an item of speculation in endless accident investigation reports. I won't dispute you're suggestion that it was her own choice. Reference the idea that she (they) were exhausted. I have flown across the Pacific in a turboprop a few times. The vibration of a prop aircraft wears on you. Even if you're a dead head, self-loading cargo, back ender. If you're actually flying or doing a job it's very, very tiring after a while. 12 hours in an office aren't the same as 12 hours in the air. I'll defer to the experienced aviators on this one. But my gut check is that they were worn out by that point. That's a lot of flying. That doesn't mean they made a mistake. Just that seeing a whole lot of sky takes its toll on anyone. Being an over achiever, highly motivated, sierra hot pilot ranks just behind bad pilot in the logs of aircraft accidents. Warren ============================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:04:05 EST Subject: Re: Lockheeds on Kanton From: Warren Schilling Best of luck to the team. You've probably all ready thought of this but taking a few photos in IR film (commercially available) might be useful. The temperature difference between medal objects and the natural surrounding should be noticeable. Warren ============================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:06:55 EST Subject: Lockheed, Lagoon or Ocean? From: Kenton Spading Mike Ruiz asks about the lagoon etc. Mike, I was a part of the lagoon search team during Niku III. I agree with Ric's response to your questions. His gut feeling is also my gut feeling. I will add some comments. Mike Ruiz asks: >What is more likely, based on all the evidence, your experience, and your >personal "gut" feeling: is the plane is covered up somewhere on land, in the >lagoon, or washed out to the ocean? Like Ric, I think it started out in the ocean or on the reef flat. Pieces then washed into the lagoon and up on the island and lagoon shoreline. Mike says: >We think it is in the lagoon. How deep is the lagoon? The deepest parts of the lagoon are in the 18 to 25 foot range, there are some isolated deeper parts, you can not see down into the water very far. Mike asks: >I read you were not able to cover the whole Lagoon on your last search, >what percentage of the lagoon were you able to cover? We did not cover very much, less than 10 percent. LTM Kenton Spading =============================================================== Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:17:49 EST Subject: Fwd: Re: In the lagoon? From: Daa390 The Electra was not easily visible on July 9th, 1937 when the float plane went over the island .Is there a way or have you looked back on weather records for the area the week between July 2nd and the 9th? If there was storm activity in the area during this time it could explain why no plane was visible from the air. Also, how feasible was(is) it to land an airplane the size of an Electra on the reef flat? Thanks, Dean A. ============================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:47:40 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Landing on the reef Dean asks: >The Electra was not easily visible on July 9th, 1937 when the float plane >went over the island . Is there a way or have you looked back on weather >records for the area the week between July 2nd and the 9th? If there was storm >activity in the area during this time it could explain why no plane was >visible from the air. There was no major storm south of the equator in the region during that period, but it wouldn't take a storm to cause a problem. Just a moderately rough day rather than a clam day would be enough to send powerful surf running across the reef flat. Been there. Seen that. >Also, how feasible was(is) it to land an airplane the size of an Electra on >the reef flat? Depends on where you try. Large stretches of the reef flat are smooth enough to ride a bicycle on. Other parts are pitted and quite jagged. Today, the area where former residents say they once saw airplane wreckage is marginal. The Electra had nice big fat tires. I'd say that you'd probably blow the tires but wouldn't necessarily collapse the gear or flip the airplane. What it was like in that area 60 years ago is anybody's guess. Ric ============================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:14:09 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Thoughts on the Kanton Mission If all goes well, a week from today we'll be on Kanton Island to try to find the engine that Bruce Yoho brought there in 1971. Bruce's recollections of where he put it are very specific. Very little has happened on Kanton since then and the engine weighs about 800 pounds. In theory, it should be right there. (For background on the engine see The Canton Engine in the Earhart project section of our website at www.tighar.org) But is it right there? And if it is, is it a Pratt & Whitney R1340 as Bruce believed it to be in 1971? And if it is an R1340, is it Earhart's? This is a real crap shoot. We're spending about $50,000, much of which we are still trying to raise, to do the only thing we can do - go look. If it's there, and it's one of Earhart's engines, it will be the proverbial smoking gun that everybody has been calling for. Because Bruce can't be sure, and no one can prove, exactly which island of the Phoenix Group he brought it to Kanton from, the discovery and identification of this engine does not have the potential for proving TIGHAR's case. It does, however, have the potential for standing one of America's most longstanding and popular mysteries on its ear. An engine on Kanton means that the Earhart aircraft did not crash and sink in mid-ocean. It also means that the aircraft was not somehow abducted by the Japanese and taken to Saipan. TIGHAR's contention that the flight ended at Nikumaroro, one of the islands Phoenix Group known to have been visited by Yoho, will suddenly be a whole lot harder for the skeptics to dismiss. With luck, funding for our next expedition to Nikumaroro will be easier to find. Prediction: If the engine is there, and if it's Earhart's, you'll need a stopwatch to measure how long it will take for someone to accuse us, or the Japanese, or maybe the CIA of planting it there. So I'll confess up front. We found the Earhart aircraft someplace else and shipped pieces of it to Kanton and Nikumaroro just to make ourselves look good. NBC News, ABC News, the Discovery Channel, and LIFE magazine (all of whom have accompanied various of our expeditions) are all in on the plot. There, it's off my chest. If the engine can not be found, or if it's the wrong engine, it won't be the first time that we've been skunked. Far from it. We know first hand that, in archeological searches, crushing disappointment is the rule, not the exception. We'll remind ourselves that we know more than we did before and we'll soldier on with the research. And we'll feel terrible - for a while. As I contemplate this expedition (my own and TIGHAR's 36th, I think) I'm worried less about its outcome, over which I have no control, than I am about the funding, the logistics, and the safety. If we can't raise the money, we can't do the work. It's as simple as that. We've paid $11,000 in non- refundable deposits and the team members have bought their own nonrefundable airline tickets to Hawaii. (If I can't complete this budget I'm splitting for Argentina.) Several forum subscribers have phoned and faxed with contributions, for which we are deeply grateful. So far, one TIGHAR member, and probably a second, have decided to come along for a $10,000 contribution. That helps a whole bunch. We still have a few of seats left. Several prospective media participants are still on the fence. Meanwhile, we have to sure that we have the logistics thought out and the proper preparations made. The severe weight restrictions on this flight make it imperative that we bring what need to do what we need to do, and no more. And safety always tops the list of things to worry about. In over 12 years of running aviation archeological expeditions to places as diverse as New Guinea, Newfoundland, and Nikumaroro we've never had a serious injury. I'm convinced that it's because we do not consider danger to be romantic. We consider it to be dangerous. Adventure, dear friends, is what happens when things go wrong. Go looking for adventure and you're guaranteed to find it - and that is all you'll find. So there you have it. True confessions of an expedition leader. Not very Indiana Jones-like I guess, but this is real life and where we go, there's never any background music. If you'd like to help out with a contribution you can send a check payable to TIGHAR to: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Dr. Wilmington, DE 19808 or you can fax or phone your VISA or MasterCard information (your name, the amount you wish to contribute, type of card, number, expiration date) to: phone (302) 994-4410 fax (302) 994-7945 We'll send everyone who contributes a handsome certificate recognizing you as an Honorary Member of the Kanton Mission Team. If you can contribute at least $100 we'll send you an 8x10 photo of Nikumaroro from the air (if we get to do our photo run over the island) or an 8x10 aerial photo of Kanton (if we don't). And if you have $10,000 and are looking for a nice little trip to someplace warm next weekend, give me a call. Ric ============================================================ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:45:26 EST Subject: Re: Lockheed, Lagoon, Ocean? II From: Mike Ruiz Thank you for your responses. Here are some additional questions: Is the approx. 1200 foot shoreline area referred to in TIGHAR Tracks on the Aukaraime (South) area? Is it possible for AE to have set the 10-E down on the South West beach(es) of the Nutiran and Ritiati/Noriti Districts? It's hard to tell from the photographs. I assume the helicopter pulled the engine off the reef south of the Norwich City, is that correct? It would seem to me that the 10-E could have washed into the ocean, off of the above mentioned beaches, only to be "returned" piece by piece through the Tatiman passage and into the Lagoon. Is that what you hypothesize? Is the trip to Kanton still on? We are all anxiously waiting to hear how it goes. We seem to think that AE and FN would have stayed close to the aircraft, leading us to believe the aircraft would have landed on the Aukaraime (South) section. But can you see a 10-E (if the lagoon is 18-25 feet deep) from the air? So, if the Colorado planes did not see anything, the case is stronger for your thoughts that it washed over into the ocean (from the West end?), because it would seem to us that the plane would have been visible in the lagoon. I would appreciate you answers/commentary. Thanks again, Mike Ruiz ============================================================ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:05:05 EST Subject: RE: In the lagoon? From: Randy Jacobson I have examined all available weather records during this time period, and had a reputable academic organization calculate tides based upon Canton records from the 1940's. There is no evidence for anything other than normal weather (i.e. benign sea-states and typical tidal excursions) during that time in the Phoenix Islands. The tidal predictions accurately match the photo taken of Gardner by the Colorado pilot on the 9th of July (high tide). Admittedly, the available weather data is scanty, primarily based upon Itasca weather logs, etc. The best source is the Itasca seastate and swell records, which are representative of larger-scale weather patterns. ========================================================================Date: Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:36:00 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Forum difficulties Just to let everyone know; We're getting tremendous response to this forum and I am very pleased with the nature and intelligence of the questions and comments being posted. Not only is this a great way to keep interested people informed about our progress in the Earhart investigation, but the feedback is materially helpful to us in making further progress. At the same time, the service we're using to administer and distribute the messages is giving us fits. Duplicate messages, garbled messages, long meaningless headers on the messages, etc., etc. In short, we have a great forum that needs much better execution. Bear with us. We're working on it. Ric =============================================================== Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:34 EST Subject: message in a bottle From: ANDREW MCKENNA Does anyone know any details regarding the claim of a "French" woman who allegedly found a proverbial message in a bottle from AE? Apparently this was written up in a French book circa 1970, and I am trying to run it down. Thought I would check to see if this one has already been put to rest or not before I spend much time on it. Andrew McKenna ============================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:26:55 EST Subject: RE: message in a bottle From: Randy Jacobson There was a claim that a message from Earhart washed up on the South American shores in about 1939 or so, and reported to the US State Department and/or the US Navy. It was mostly discredited as a hoax. In the National Archives are literally dozens of stories of people sighting Earhart and/or Noonan from time to time out at sea, on islands, as Tokyo Rose. In 1938, a Frenchman dropped a bottle off a ship (he was being transported back to Europe at the time from one of the Japanese mandated islands) off of Spain, and it purportedly contained snippets of AE's hair. A thorough investigation by French and US authorities also came to the conclusion that this was likely a hoax. It seems amazing to me why anyone would want to make up a fictitious story, just to get five minutes of glory. It happened over and over regarding Earhart's disappearance. Of course, it causes us historians fits, trying to figure out what is truth and what is fiction. Cheers. ============================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:27:19 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Lockheed, Lagoon, Ocean? II Mike Ruiz asks: >Is the approx. 1200 foot shoreline area referred to in TIGHAR Tracks on the >Aukaraime (South) area? Yes. >Is it possible for AE to have set the 10-E down on >the South West beach(es) of the Nutiran and Ritiati/Noriti Districts? It's >hard to tell from the photographs. Nutiran probably not. The beach is too narrow and curving. Ritiati/Noriti probably yes. >I assume the helicopter pulled the engine off the reef south of the Norwich >City, is that correct? Remember that Bruce doesn't recall which island the engine came from. However, he describes the location as off the western end of whatever island it was. That matches the location on Nikumaroro described by the former inhabitants. >It would seem to me that the 10-E could have washed into the ocean, off of >the above mentioned beaches, only to be "returned" piece by piece through the >Tatiman passage and into the Lagoon. Is that what you hypothesize? Pretty much, yes. We also think that some of the wreckage could be up in the treeline along the Nutiran shore. >Is the trip to Kanton still on? We are all anxiously waiting to hear how it >goes. You betcha. >We seem to think that AE and FN would have stayed close to the aircraft, >leading us to believe the aircraft would have landed on the Aukaraime >(South) section. That has been a topic of heated debate among the team members. If the aircraft is up at Nutiran, why are the bodies and campsite two miles away down on Aukaraime? Lots of speculation and hypothetical scenarios. Precious few facts to work with yet. >But can you see a 10-E (if the lagoon is 18-25 feet deep) from the air? Not today. Too cloudy. Back then it seems to have been clearer, based on the aerial photos we've seen. Bottom line: Seems like an intact airplane with orange leading edges and big black numbers on its wings should have been visible on the lagoon bottom. A jumble of wreckage, however, might be very hard to pick out. >So, if the Colorado planes did not see anything, the case is stronger for >your thoughts that it washed over into the ocean (from the West end?), >because it would seem to us that the plane would have been visible in the >lagoon. Unless it was badly broken up. Ric ============================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:12:13 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Dem Bones Practically on the eve of our departure for Kanton Island, there is important new information on a totally separate avenue of investigation. After months of beating the archival bushes, Earhart Project team member and researcher Kenton Spading has come up with a much more detailed report on the bones found on Nikumaroro in 1940. Yesterday Kenton received a response to inquiries he had made at the library of the Western Pacific High Commission in England. As usual, they had nothing on most of the stuff he had asked them to look for, but they did have a one page report, a diagram, and a page of handwritten notes by Dr. D.W. Hoodless, Principal, Central Medical School, Suva. The report is dated April 4, 1941 and was contained in a file labeled "Skeleton. Human: - Finding of, on Gardner Island" (WPC 4 Vol 2 IV MP 4439/1940 G&E). You may recall that a colonial doctor on Tarawa had examined the bones and dismissed them as those of an elderly Polynesian male. That was in February 1941. Thanks to this newly discovered report, we now know that when the bones arrived in Fiji they were sent to the Medical School where Dr. Hoodless took a close look a them. He was not entirely in agreement with Dr. Isaac's earlier evaluation. I'll summarize his report. 1. The bones came to him in a closed wooden box. This is almost certainly the box Gallagher (the magistrate who found the bones on Nikumaroro) decribes having had built to contain the bones. (See The Tarawa File on our website at www.tighar.org) 2. There were: - a skull with right zygoma and malar bones broken off - mandible with only four teeth in position - part of the right scapula - the first thoracic verteabra - portion of a rib (2nd right?) - left humerus - right radius - right innominate bone - right femur - left femur - right tibia - right fibula - right scaphoid bone of the foot 3. Hoodless notes that less than half of the total skeleton is present. 4. All bones are "very weather-beaten and have been exposed to the open air for a considerable time. Except in one or two small areas, all traces of muscular attachments and the various ridges and prominences have been obliterated." 5. Length of femur, tibia and humerus cause him to estimate the individual's height at 5 feet 5.5 inches. His handwritten notes include the actual measurements (bless him) and make it clear that he arrived at the height by averaging something called "Karl Pearson's formula for stature." 6. Like Isaacs, he feels that the individual was definitely male. He based his conclusion upon "the half sub-pubic angle of the right innomminate bone, the 'set' of the femora, and the ratio of the circumference of the long bones to their individual lengths." 7. Due to the condition of the bones he says that he can not be "dogmatic" about the individual's age, but his opinion is that the person was not less than 45 and probably betwen 45 and 55 years of age. 8. He says that he is not prepared to give an opinion about race or nationality except to say that the person was probably not Micronesian or Polynesian. He says the skeleton "could be that of a short, stocky, muscular European, or even a half-caste or person of mixed European descent." 9. Hoodless says that he is prepared to go further and take exact measurements and work out various indices, etc., but if such a detailed report is required the obvious course is to submit the bones to Professor Elkin at the University of Sydney's Antropological Dept. WHEW! So much for Isaac's elderly Polynesisan. But what DO we have? A middle-aged, five foot five, stocky, muscular European guy? Unless there was a stow-away aboard the Electra, that doesn't help us much. But if the height and build estimates are off, we do know of a 46 year-old Irish-American male who was aboard the airplane. Conversely, if the gender identification is wrong, Amelia's 5 foot 8 inch height is close to the estimate and her 39 year age is not too far off. Would the fact that she never had children make her innominate bone and femoral set look male? I'm outside my pay-grade on that one. Even though this new information became known to us less than 24 hours ago, there has already been some livley debate about whether this could reasonably be one of the eleven sailors lost in 1929 in the wreck of the S.S. Norwich City. After five days on the island, the 24 survivors were rescued by two ships from Samoa. If some poor devil was left behind nobody knew about it at the time. There is also the problem of the shoes. Gallagher found parts of a woman's "stoutish walking shoe." So did we, and we know that the style and size appear to match those worn by Earhart. And it had an American Cat's Paw heel manufactured in the mid-1930s. It's pretty hard to put that shoe on a British sailor from a 1929 shipwreck. One thing is for sure. We need to contact the Anthro. Dept. at Sydney U. to see if those bones may still be there. Way to go Kent! Ric ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:45:10 EST Subject: Re: Forum difficulties From: Mike Ruiz We love it, you are doing great, and at the same time have earned yourself a place in history as having solved one of the greatest mysteries of our time. Looking forward to photos of the engine in the next TIGHAR Tracks. Mike Ruiz =============================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:49:22 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: A Place in History Mike, Your confidence in our work is inspiring. I hope we prove worthy. Ric ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:50:01 EST Subject: Re: Dem Bones From: Daa390 - I find it hard to believe that people didn't follow up on Gallaghar's (I think that was his name) hunch that these may be Earhart's or Noonan's bones. In any event this is pretty neat stuff.I wonder if there is any follow-up material in these archives? GOOD LUCK on Kanton !!!! Dean A. ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:51:53 EST From: Dave Kelly Subject: Re: Dem Bones Would you like me to follow up in Sydney since i am johnny on the spot as it were??? If so, could you forward me a copy of the page u are referring to so i have something to take to them to get there assistance. David Kelly ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:53:29 EST From: Chuck Jackson Subject: Re: Dem Bones exciting stuff!!!!!!!!!--how old was noonan on 2 july 37? ric, let's not wait till we get some part of her to get a reference dna profile ---plenty of her tight fitting hats & helmets, clothes---maybe a hair brush, etc,etc,etc around the various ae collections!!!!! might be hard to borrow some of these-----------------but,,,,,,,,,,how about getting a dna expert at purdue interested-----then the artifacts and expert would be all in the same organization---purdue wouldn't have to release artifacts to "outsiders"!!!!!!!!!!!!-----what a thesis topic for an energetic grad student!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. regards, chuck jackson =============================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:39:44 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Dropping the ball Dean writes: >I find it hard to believe that people didn't follow up on Gallaghar's (I think >that was his name) hunch that these may be Earhart's or Noonan's bones. It is puzzling. Whether or not the bones really are from the lost Earhart flight it seems like the American authorities should have been at least made aware of them. Of course, maybe they were and we just haven't found a record of it. If it was reported, why was there no follow up? Somewhere along the line, somebody dropped the ball. The sequence may have gone like this: 1. Gallagher finds the bones, etc. and thinks Wow, maybe this Amelia Earhart. 2. He notifies his superiors who take a skeptical view (as do all superiors). 3. Isaacs' dismissal of the bones confirms their skepticism. Gallagher is a bit embarrassed. 4. By the time Hoodless examines the bones the possible Earhart connection is largely forgotten or is further discounted by the male gender and short stature described in his report. Still, the British authorities in Fiji have something of a mystery on their hands. Apparently a middle-aged white guy died marooned on one of their islands. Who was he? Nobody was known to be missing. Maybe they just wrote it off as probably a body from the S.S. Norwich City disaster. But if anyone really looked into that possibility they should have seen that it makes no sense. I'm hoping that there was enough curiosity about this case to send the bones to Sydney as Hoodless suggests. Ric ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:51:12 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Searching in Sydney David Kelly asks: >Would you like me to follow up in Sydney since i am johnny on the spot as it >were??? Thank you. Because you had the interest and foresight to send in your TIGHAR membership, I can put put you to work on our behalf. I'll coordinate with you by off-forum email. Ric ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:11:16 EST Subject: Re: A Place in History From: Jim Gilbert Richard E. Gillespie wrote: > > Mike, > > Your confidence in our work is inspiring. I hope we prove worthy. > > Ric Tighar is to be admired for the deliberate and persistent approach it is taking to solve a mystery heretofore not marked by professional standards. No hype just plain, dogged, scientific, hard work. You have the gratitude of many. Too bad we didn't have DNA matching methodology available to us in the 1940's. JEG ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:22:54 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: DNA Anytime we get a new breakthrough in the investigation there is a great temptation to rush about. Unless there is a real danger that information could be damaged or disappear unless immediate action is taken, it's always better to take a deep breath and carefully consider the next move. Fred Noonan was 46 in 1937. If the bones still exist and they're Fred's, we will not be able to confirm that by DNA testing because we do not have a sample of Fred's DNA for comparison. If we could find a direct blood relative in the female line, that would give us the information we need. Unfortunately, we know of no relative of Noonan's. However, a computer analysis of the skull compared to the many excellent photos of Fred's head could be just as conclusive. The same is true for Amelia. Plus, if the skull was convincingly Amelia's we could then go to living direct blood relatives in the female line (a sister and a niece) and be doubly sure through DNA comparison. Let's find the bones first. Ric ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:50:23 EST Subject: Re: Dem Bones From: Jerry Sawyer While I am not a biological anthropologist, I seem to remember from courses I've taken in it that the pelvic arch is a pretty reliable indicator of sex, whether a woman has had a child or not. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents. Jerry Sawyer ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:06:30 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Sex determination Jerry Sawyer comments: >While I am not a biological anthropologist, I seem to remember from courses >I've taken in it that the pelvic arch is a pretty reliable indicator of sex, >whether a woman has had a child or not. That is my understanding also. Problem is, a complete pelvic arch was not among the bones found. Ric ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:01:47 EST Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: Forum difficulties II Like this? Only trouble is, you get the answer before you see the question. Ric *********************************************************** From: Bob Sherman Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:13:33 Another thought for improvement: Send the answer with the question. That would cut the traffic in half. RC # 941 ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:09:05 EST Subject: Reading the Bones From : Tim Smith Ric; Yoikes! "Dem bones" could be of great interest if they can be found in Sydney. You can post this on the forum if you want. I'm just trying to give a little idea of what one could expect to find out from the bones. I'm not a forensic anthropologist but I have read a little of it. Here are some randon thoughts on what we could discover if the bones can be re-examined: There is a good chance that DNA can be extracted from them. Recently, DNA was extracted from Neanderthal bones that were tens of thousands of years old (yes, the original ones from the Valley of Neander in Germany). The skull is the best part for guessing race and age. And of course for reconstructing the face and matching it with photos (this was one of the ways Mengele's bones were IDed). There are at least 4 teeth in the mandible but it is unclear if there are any teeth in the maxilla. Anyway, teeth are often instructive in racial ID and age estimation. If there is any dental work, it may be possible to match it with dental records (another important aspect in the Mengele ID). Any one know of AE's or FN's dentists? The long bones, especially the leg (femur & tibia) bones are best for estimating stature. The Pearson formula was constructed by measuring the bones of people of known stature and constructing a regression analysis of the data yielding a formula that estimates stature with an error factor, something like 5'6" +/- 1.3". By the way, Pearson was a very famous biostatistician and his work from 70 or more years ago) is still cited today. His stature formulas have been refined quite a bit. So, if the ends of the long bones haven't been gnawed off by coconut crabs, a pretty good stature estimate is possible. The innominate is best for determining sex. The shape is different in men and women but most clearly in the pubis (one of the three bones that fuse in adulthood to form the innominate). If the pubic symphysis (where the two halves of the pelvis meet) is in good shape, it is sometimes possible to tell if a female has had children on not. Race can be very difficult to determine since any one skeleton rarely shows all the "typical" hallmarks of a race. Also, racial traits can be freely mixed in people of mixed descent. Its not surprising that Dr. Hoodless was not forthcoming on a racial ID and you'll find the same is true today of most forensic anthropologists. Anyway, these bones could potentially tell us lots about who they belonged to AND who they didn't belong to. Tim Smith ============================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:10:26 EST Subject: Sex determination From: Ken Feder I have just joined the list and find the discussion enormously interesting. I would like to comment on the identification of the skeletal remains as male. The fact that a "pelvic arch" was found but was incomplete may not matter. The pelvis is the best area to look on a human skeleton for diagnostic indicators of sex; you don't necessarily need the entire pelvis or even one entire side (consisting of the innominate bone made up, actually, of three bones: the illium or blade, the ischium (you're sitting on it) and the pubis) to identify the sex; you just need the right (i.e, correct) piece. For example, the sciatic notch of the pelvis (through which the sciatic nerve passes) by itself is almost always a dead giveaway (no pun intended); women *usually* have notches with larger angles than men. There are several other features of the pelvis that can be used to distinguish male from female (see Krogman's classic book, The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine). Just cross our fingers that the bones are available and enough remain to allow for this identification. Keep up the great work on this fascinating topic. Ken Feder Department of Anthropology Central Connecticut State University New Britain, CT 06050 =============================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:25:49 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Forum difficulties II Put the answer at the end of the question!! Randy Jacobson ***************************************** Brilliant! Thanks Ran. I can do it this way but it involves cutting and pasting into a new message rather than simply forwarding the original message. It's cumbersome on this end but it should also solve the garbling problem. Ric ============================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:32:56 EST From: Bob Sherman Subject: Forum Difficulties Solved Randy wrote: > Put the answer at the end of the question!! > ***************************************** > Brilliant! Thanks Ran. I can do it this way but it involves cutting and > pasting into a new message rather than simply forwarding the original message. > > It's cumbersome on this end but it should also solve the garbling problem. > > Ric *** THANK YOU RANDY. He didn't understand it when I wired, "Another thought for improvement: Send the answer with the question." He replied, "Like this? Only trouble is, you get the answer before you see the question. Ric" To which, I said: ****** Since you screen all submissions before releasing them, add the answer to it BEFORE releasing it to the forum RC You got his attention, thanks. RC # 941 ******************************************************** From Ric: Now that we have established that Gillespie is a dunce (as if that needed further documentation), this message should serve as evidence that the problem is solved (the answer-at-the-end problem that is. Gillespie is still a dunce.). Ric ============================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:39:13 EST From: Jerry Sawyer Subject: Re: Sex Detemination Actually, Ric, even with only a left or right half of the pelvis, you can read sex from the sciatic notch, which is larger in females. Jerry Sawyer ============================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:46:18 EST From: "SJC" Subject: Cats Paw Question Richard E. Gillespie wrote: > Anytime we get a new breakthrough in the investigation there is a great > temptation to rush about. Unless there is a real danger that information > could be damaged or disappear unless immediate action is taken, it's always > better to take a deep breath and carefully consider the next move. I for one think this very statement shows that TIGHAR operates with considerable integrity. We are often tempted and too eager to *make things fit the mold*. What is just as important as discovering the answers to this mystery, is knowing the answers we discover, are true. What is more intriguing to me, is the shoe piece with the "American Cat's Paw". I'm new to the forum, but is there more written about that? Thanks. sjc ********************************************************* For a detailed discussion of the shoe parts found on Nikumaroro, go to our website at www.tighar.org and click on the TIGHAR Tracks icon. Scroll down and select Archive of Past Issues. Click on Vol. 12 Number 2/3 and select Found Objects from the tabl of contents. Scroll down to Other Physical Evidence. Ric ============================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:02:01 EST From: Phil Vitiello Subject: Fred's teeth Ric, I'm new to the forum but not my interest to AE and FN. My interest goes back to well over 30 years to about 12yo or so. I would like to take a moment to thank you for this forum. You give me and others like me, the feeling of a contributing no mater how small it may be. This is the first time that I've felt that the search is on the right path. Regarding the bones; if its any help I remember reading where Fred Noonan fell in a bathroom in Honolulu and broke off his upper four teeth. A dentist from Exeter, California, F. Clifford Phillips worked on his teeth and made him an upper cast partial denture that replaced upper teeth except for the cuspids and bicuspids on each side. I don't know how reliable this info is. Good luck in Kanton. Phil Vitiello *********************************************************** Phil, Thank you. You may have just helped in a not-so-small way. Let's see if we can verify your recollection about Noonan's front teeth. There were no teeth in the maxilla (upper jaw) of the skull found on Nikumaroro. Ric ============================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:19:32 EST From: Jerry Ellis Subject: Thanks Please add my thanks to the list. I'm impressed with the approach your group is taking to finding a solution to the AE/FN mystery. As a chemist I see elements of good science going on. I have not yet discovered a way to make a meaningful contribution to the effort. Many times the best thing to do is to just stay out of the way! I sort of rediscovered AE last summer when our local newspaper ran a short story on her in July and included a most charming photo of her. I announced to my wife that I had fallen in love with another woman, but she didn't seem to be worried. Now I have a growing collection of info about AE. I will send a contribution soon. Good luck on the upcoming trip. I will be monitoring the forum to learn the latest. Jerry W. Ellis Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Eastern Illinois University ============================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:32:59 EST From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Dental Records Tim Smith posted: >If there is any dental work, it may be possible to match it with dental >records... Any one know of AE's or FN's dentists? I seem to recall Fred Goerner (sp?) getting in touch with Amelia's dentist when he brought bones back from Saipan. I'm at work or I'd look it up. The best bet would probably be to contact Sally Putnam Chapman. She inherited her grandfathers papers, and I'm guessing GP hung on to his wife's dental records for this very reason. Ric posted: >Plus, if the skull was convincingly Amelia's we could then go to living >direct blood relatives in the female line (a sister and a niece) and be >doubly sure through DNA comparison. The niece was in National Geographic recently, but I thought Muriel Earhart Morrissey had passed away? The game's afoot! Good luck on Kanton!!! Amanda Dunham ************************************************************* Ric responds: Back in '91 when we hoped to dig up AE's bones (and actually dug up an infant) LIFE magazine tracked down a dentist in Miami who had done some work on Amelia. As I recall, the guy wanted lots of money for the information. We won't play that game. Sally Chapman is a long-time TIGHAR member and a personal friend. Unfortunately, no dental records are among the papers she has. As far as I know, Mrs. Morrissey is still living but very frail. Yes, indeed, the game's afoot. I hope our powers of observation and deduction are equal to the task. (Do you have your revolver with you Watson?) Ric ============================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:37:00 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Off We Go I'll be very much out of the office until Wednesday, Feb. 18 so the forum willbe quiet until then. One way or another there should be lots to tell when Iget back. Wish us luck! Ric ============================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:47:43 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Storm Wash >Documented storm activity both in 1939 and 1940 would >seem to lend credibility to the hypothesis that an airplane on the >island's land area might have been swept into the water. But which >water, the ocean or the lagoon? Without doubt, the predominant direction >of force in an overwash situation is toward the lagoon. It also seems >reasonable that an aircraft swept into the lagoon would also be obscured >from view by silt and sand stirred up by the same storm that moved it >there. There is also the point that visual and sonar searches of the >ocean immediately offshore have turned up nothing, while no real search >of the lagoon has yet been attempted. It becomes obvious that it's time >to search to lagoon. In reading through some of the documents, I came across the above paragraph. It would certainly seem that the lagoon is a most logical place to search, especially if it is quite deep. But it is also curious why the 1978 survey for minerals, by Geomarex Corp, didn't reveal any anomilies in the lagoon floor. Has TIGHAR been able to acquire the data from that survey or learn of what method of exporation was used? Were they just drilling bore holes for bottom samples and the like? In any case, when considering severe storm and wave activity, "forward wash & deposition" of a large object, (ie plane body), is one senario. Another picture can also be imagined: The remains of the aircraft could have actually been floated by a "storm surge", (deep water tide), and instead of washing inland or deposited in the lagoon, it would have been captured and washed offshore. From here, if still buoyant, currents would carry it it who knows where, before it finally sunk. I'm sure this has already occurred to the investigation, but living on the gulf coast of Texas, I've personally observed some "curious" and unexpected phenomena of wave, tidal, and offshore currents. I know there has been significant study & mapping done of ocean currents and surface drift. Have any of these ever been looked at and compared to recorded periods of storm activity for a possible "drift path" for AE's plane? This would be an undertaking, indeed, and considering the depth of the pacific ocean, it might seem a futile gesture... But, what if it continued to drift in "shallower" waters or possibly washed up "near by". Well, I'm sure you receive many "ideas and suggestions"..., but the other day, while I was sitting on the beach, I couldn't help but think about the fate of that mission. I'm a chemist. I used to work for ALCOA. And I also know that aluminum needs alot longer than 60+ years to disentigrate and erode into *nothing*. I truly believe they landed that plane somewhere....; it's just a matter of finding it! Thanks for hearing me out. On to Kanton! Sandy J. Campbell =============================================================== Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:33:41 EST From: Lots of people Subject: Good Wishes Here are a few messages that came in just as we were leaving. ****************************************************** Good luck! The truth is out there! donofre@orion.it.luc.edu ******************************************************* How marvelous that someone is actually using good science to pursue the mystery of AE's disappearence! I have been an Earhart fan since the early fifty's, and actually have a copy of Last Flight. My first copy, with dust jacket was destroyed in a flood, and I was fortunate to find this one. Some day I hope to acquire the other two books, along with the record that was in one of them. Does anyone have a color photo of Earhart? So far all I've seen are black & white ones. The newspapers from the time when the plane went down are readily available as photo copies. The newspapers are on fiche at the Baltimore (aka Enoch Pratt) Public Library. Susie Bound ************************************************************* The Kodachrome process for color transparencies was first developed by Kodak in 1935 and it wasn't until 1942 that the KodaColor process made color print photography practical. Due to the war, it was 1949 before color print film was available to the public. I very much doubt that any color photograph was ever made of Amelia Earhart. Ric *************************************************************** The best of luck to you. May you find what we've been hoping for all these years. Cheers. Kirby Nunn ************************************************************* All the best, Ric. Fly safely. PMB ************************************************************* Hello Ric, I heard Paul Harvey at noon today. He mentioned the search for the company that made the canned bananas. As an aside, I don't know if you know Paul but many years ago I had the chance to have lunch with him at the E.A.A. convention in Oshkosh Wisconsin. Just a great person. Good luck to you and all the members of the team on this weekends trip. Our prayers are with you. Love To Mother Jim ============================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:44:54 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Quick and Dirty I know everyone is dying to know how the Kanton Mission went so I'll put out a quick and dirty summary and write up a real report once the effects of crossing 12 time zones in 4 days have somewhat abated. Most important: The expedition went smoothly with no serious injuries, no illness, and no damage to equipment. We had a great team that did a great job cheerfully despite difficult conditions. The max-gross takeoff out of Palmyra was aided by a 15 knot wind right down the runway. We got off with room to spare and the birds were not a problem. Identification of the dump sight on Kanton was complicated by extensive bulldozer activity which had occurred throughout the area after Bruce Yoho had deposited the engine in 1971. It is clear that, prior to the departure of the USAF in 1976, an effort was made to bury or cover over all of the junk that once littered the landscape off the end of the main runway. Bruce's dump, it turns out, was probably just one of many areas where debris was deposited. None of that activity was documented in the paperwork describing the shutdown of the missile test project. Despite the confusion created by the massive rearrangement of the landscape and the considerable increase in vegetation due to a wetter climate in recent years, we were able to positively identify Bruce's original dump site. With the help of Bruce's on-site recollections and Dr. Tom King's archaeological expertise, we were able to match the ground exactly with the maps Bruce had drawn from memory. Unfortunately, some time between when Bruce put the engine there in 1971 and when the Air Force left in 1976, a large trench was dug just beyond the dump and the contents of the dump were pushed into it, then buried over with the removed coral rubble. What was once a shallow depression littered with junk is now scraped clean. Just beyond is a low mound of coral rubble liberally sprinkled with diesel engines, winches, aluminum aircraft structures, etc., etc. Somewhere, buried under tons of coral and junk, is Bruce's (and maybe Amelia's) engine. With a couple of days and a beefy backhoe we could dig it out, but we had neither. The terrible condition of the metal debris that we could see was not encouraging as to the prospect of the engine being conclusively identifiable if we could find it. Not the results we hoped for, but certainly not the worst results we could have had. The perfect match of the site with Bruce's recollections and memory-drawn maps greatly enhances the credibility of his story. There is every reason to think that the engine is there. We just can't get at it - yet. Had the dump been undisturbed and an engine - but not a P&W R1340 as Bruce remembered it - been sitting right there, we would have had a real quandary on our hands. It would mean that there had been a heretofore unknown aircraft crash somewhere in the Phoenix Islands, possibly at Nikumaroro. Such a crash might explain away the other evidence we have found and leave us back at square one with Amelia. Of course, if we can figure out a way to get at Bruce's engine it could still turn out to be not Amelia's, but for now his identification of the engine as an R1340 is bolstered by the accuracy of his other recollections that we have been able to check. As happened last year, mother nature didn't cut us any breaks on this trip. It poured rain most of the day on Sunday preventing a flyover of Nikumaroro. We were able to take on some additional fuel at Kanton but not as much as we had hoped. We considered making a run over Nikumaroro on the way home on Monday but, with continued low weather, short fuel, unknown winds aloft, and unknown weather at our enroute refueling point on Palmyra Atoll, we decided that one missing twin-engined airplane in the area was sufficient. There is much more to tell and I'll get the full report written up as soon as we've compiled, compared and consolidated everyone's field notes. In the meantime, it's good to be back. We know more than we did but not as much as we hoped to know. That's par for the course. Thanks to everyone who wished us well and thank you especially to those whose contributions helped make the trip possible. Now let's see....is it time to eat lunch, or breakfast, or go to bed? Ric =============================================================== Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:28:10 EST From: "A" Subject: Rapid decay Hope the most recent trip went well. We all await word of the event.I have a question as to items found on Nikumaroro such as the shoe heel. Have any items from clothing, such as buttons, zippers, fasteners ever been found? What would have happened to clothing items? Would the environmental conditions lead to their rapid decay? Please keep up your outstanding work. Best regards,A. ************************************************************* No. We've looked hard but haven't found any of those items. Back in 1940 Gallagher also looked for such things including coins and hair but found nothing. clothing deteriorates very rapidly in the heat and, unless sheltered, in the intense UVs of the tropical sun. There is also the fact hat the crabs tend to go off with stuff. We learned early on not to leave our socks to dry on a bush. Rats and birds are known to be attracted to shiny objects and hair is great nest making material. The bottom line is that it's an environment that cleans itself very rapidly. We feel incredibly fortunate to have found what we have. Ric ============================================================ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:59:03 EST From: Ric Gillespie/Jeff Glickman Subject: Photo Analysis I'm posting the following email on the forum as an example of the the kind of forensic imaging research we are pursuing on the Earhart Project. The email is from Jeff Glickman who runs Photek, a state-of-the-art forensic imaging lab in Hood River, Oregon. Jeff has been deeply involved in the Earhart Project for several years now and has done extensive work on the film of the Lae takeoff (a crucial antenna appears to be missing), aerial photographs of Nikumaroro (evidence of an aluminum debris field on the reef and a large metalic object back in the trees) and on the famous (infamous?) wreck photo. His latest research project for TIGHAR is an attempt to photographically prove or disprove that the section of airplane skin found on Nikumaroro (TIGHAR Artifact 2-2-V-1) is from a particular location on the underside of the Earhart aircraft first identified by TIGHAR member Frank Lombardo. Thanks to the efforts of TIGHAR member Mike Firczuk, we were recently able to borrow original prints of two photos of the airplane taken in San Juan, Puerto Rico on day two of the second world flight attempt. The angle of the photos permits the best view we have yet found of the aircraft's belly. Jeff has had one of the photos scanned and digitized at very high resolution. If he can pull out enough detail we may be able to find out whether the repairs made to the underside of the airplane following Earhart's March 20, 1937 accident in Hawaii match the features we see on the section skin found Nikumaroro. Conversely, if the belly of the airplane does not match the artifact, we'll know that we have either the wrong place on the Electra or a piece of some other airplane. In the message below, Jeff explains some of the methodology he'll use. Ric ************************************************************** Ric, Congratulations on a safe and successful trip. It is an accomplishment to execute a complex set of logistics such as were required for this trip and for everyone to return safe and sound. It sounds from your preview of events that you were able to contribute to the body of knowledge related to the Canton engine. The information obtained by your recon may now make it possible to access the Canton engine. While business here is busier than ever with murder, wrongful death, and several other cases currently actively in the lab, I have been able to make time to work on the San Juan photo. First, I have successfully established a methodology for comparing artifact 2-2-V-1 to the San Juan photo. I am using a hybrid approach of both qualitative and quantitative methods. I am using the qualitative method to identify potential orientations and placements of 2-2-V-1 on the San Juan fuselage. Then I shall employ a data analytic method similar to the one I employed in measuring the engine diameter of the wreck photograph. Thus far, I have placed 2-2-V-1 in VRML, a virtual reality environment, to assist with the real-time visualization of 2-2-V-1 in perspectives which match various skin segments of the San Juan photo. Once the potential matches are enumerated, I will extract multiple data measurements (specifically the distance between rivet lines) from both the San Juan photograph and 2-2-V-1, which must match, if 2-2-V-1 originates from Earhart's Lockheed Electra 10E. I am ready to discuss several issues regarding the orientation and placement of 2-2-V-1 on the fuselage. Please call me at your convenience to discuss. Thanks. Love to Mother, Jeff ============================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:55:16 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Letter in a bottle The other day I received a letter from the TV series Unsolved Mysteries. Several years ago they interviewed me for a segment about Amelia Earhart and they're still running the thing periodically and people still call in with "leads" which are duly passed on to me. This one was more interesting than most. A man named Cory Tennant from Utah has a letter which he calls The Fred Noonan Document and which is alleged to have been written by Earhart's navigator on the morning of July 2, 1937 aboard the sinking Electra. We first became aware of the letter a year ago when Randy Silverman, a preservationist at the University of Utah, contacted us after he had been approached for help in authenticating the letter by its discovers, one Chauncey Doty and his buddy Sean. Supposedly the letter was in a bottle found on the beach, as I recall, near Seattle. We provided examples of Noonan's handwriting and that was the end of it as far as we knew. Mr. Tennant contacted us through Unsolved Mysteries because he is having trouble authenticating the document because he doesn't have sufficient continuous examples of Noonan's handwriting. To see examples of portions of the letter and read Mr. Tennant's description of why he feels it may be genuine you can visit his website at http://www.angelfire.com/ut/tennant I told Mr. Tennant that we would provide him with copies of two notes known to have been handwritten by Noonan if he would provide us with the complete text of the letter. He explained that he has formed a corporation "to protect" Mr. Doty and that I would have to sign a non disclosure agreement before he could let me see the complete text. I agreed (what the heck) and signed the agreement which carries a penalty of one million dollars if I disclose any privileged information (so I won't). Incidentally, Chauncey Doty is not mentioned in the agreement that is supposed to protect him. I have now received the complete text of the document plus a scanned image of the original. I have faxed Mr. Tennant the two notes I promised him. One is a receipt given by Fred to Harry Manning on March 20, 1937 (the day of the crash in Hawaii that ended the first world flight attempt). It's on Matson Line note paper (AE, Harry and Fred all sailed for California that same day aboard the S.S. Malolo) and says: March 20, 1937 Received from Captain Harry Manning U.S. Navy Pioneer Bubble Octant #12-36 - to be returned to U.S. Navy, North Island, San Diego, upon completion of Amelia Earhart flight. F. J. Noonan Earhart Project team member Russ Matthews found this note in Manning's papers in the Merchant Marine Museum. The second example is a note passed to AE by Fred during the crossing of the South Atlantic. It was mailed home along with the charts from that trip and is now in the Purdue Special Collection. The note says: By a second observation crossed with the first taken in the cockpit find we are north of course - have averaged 147 M.P.H. Now we have a tail wind - alter course to 76deg Both notes appear to have been written in pen and are in what might be called a casual but legible cursive hand. Another, shorter, note is reproduced in many editions of Last Flight and other Earhart books. The hand is the same. I've promised Mr. Tennant that I will look carefully at the Fred Noonan Document and give him my opinion as to it's possible authenticity. Although I can't disclose anything that is not already disclosed on Mr. Tennant's website, I can tell you that what appears on the website is typical of the rest of the letter. Any observations or opinions forum members might have would be welcome. Although a crash at sea is not the hypothesis we are pursuing, we have to give fair and impartial attention to all evidence that is presented. Let me know what you think. Ric =============================================================== Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:01:11 EST From: Chad Subject: Plane in lagoon? I'm new to this forum, but i have just one question. So far I understand that you believe the plane is in the lagoon. If this is the case then do you believe the picture of the plane is not AE. I know there is alot of other people helping with their expertise, but this was confusing me. Thank you Chad ************************************************************ The latest information leads us to suspect that the plane was landed on the reef near the main entrance to the lagoon and later broken up by the action of the surf. Debris seems to have washed across the reef-flat and, if anecdotal accounts by former residents are accurate, the main body of wreckage may well have ended up in the treeline along the shore (such as is shown in the wreck photo). Other wreckage seems to have washed through the main lagoon passage and washed up on the lagoon shore. It seems logical to assume that other non- floating debris wound up on the lagoon floor just inside the main passage. Ric =============================================================== Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:18:58 EST Subject: Earhart SOS From: Don Jordan I have followed the Earhart mystery since 1962, as a High School student. Mostly by reading what other's have to say. I recently joined the Earhartforum list and have already received several messages that were extremely interesting. I may also be joining TIGHAR. I am currently waiting for some information from your office. For several years now I have been idle, wanting information, but not knowing where to get it. Then I found, by accident, an article about the Kanton Engine on the Internet two week ago. What a surprise to find out there is so much research going on. Can't wait for the information from your office to arrive. I am somewhat skeptical about a land on Nikumaroro. I have for many years thought she went into the water north of Howland. Perhaps on an island. My maps, however , don't show any islands north of howland. Is there anything there? I also have a newspaper article from the local paper, dated July 6, 1937, in which it quotes a Mr. Charles McGill as having heard Amelia on shortwave radio. There are many reports about hearing her on shortwave at that time, but this one contains the following quote: "NRUI,KHAQQ-KHAQQ-SOS-SOS." The paper quotes Mr. McGill as saying he did not know what NRUI meant. It is interesting to me that only 5 days after the dissapearance, someone heard the letters " NRUI", and didn't know what they meant. They were, of course, the call letters of the Itasca. I wonder how many people knew that at that time, or how easy it was to get that information. Perhaps this is a letter for the EARHARTFORUM. Post it there if you think it is worth it. Don Jordan (Soon to be Member) *************************************************************** From Ric: There are no islands north of Howland within the aircraft's anticipated fuel range. SOS messages from Earhart were reported by two ham operators, Walter McMenamy and Karl Pierson, shortly after Earhart was reported missing. McGill was just one of many others who also claimed to have heard post-loss distress calls. You make an interesting point about NRUI. I'll look into it. Thanks for joining! Ric ============================================================ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:22:12 EST Subject: Re: letter in bottle From: bfrivet Mr. Tennant's credibility disappears when one follows his links. (Except Tighar!) ============================================================ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:29:17 EST Subject: Bottle and Engine From Bill Moss RIC & CO...The bottle message is interesting,unlikely but possible. Tuned in the website but find it very unlikely to be authenticable.However,in Hawaii be get Japanese glass ball floats that have crossed the Pacific. And a few years ago several fishermen in an outboard disappeared in the waters off Maui. A long search was made to no results. Eventually, a couple of years later their boat was found on,I believe,Marcus Island some 2,500 miles away. There was one grave and one survivor. So the point is that ocean currents are capricious and almost anything is possible. THE CANTON ENGINE...I have been brainstorming that problem.Would the NAI'A on Niku IV be able to put a small bulldozer on board and stop at Canton and try to uncover the engine? Considering the cost of the airplane with minimal results, shouldn't TIGHAR not admit defeat but go forward? A second thought is this...How does fuel get to Canton? And how about other supplies for the residents? By Barge? If so maybe we could piggyback a small bulldozer. Regards...BILL MOSS ************************************************************** From Ric: I'll post my thoughts on the bottle letter soon. We haven't given up on the Kanton engine. Far from it. Unfortunately, Nai'a is not capable of carrying even a tiny bulldozer. There are, however, other ways to skin that cat. Plans are currently underway for a recovery attempt, possibly even later this year. I'll post details as soon as we have them. Ric =============================================================== Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:54:56 EST Subject: Hi-tech Forgery From Warren Perhaps I'm excessively skeptical. If the item in question (the note in the bottle) could be verified as having been in legitimate possession of a reputable institution prior to 10 years ago I'll be open minded. However every time I hear of a new amazing discovery and there's money involved ... On a recent airline flight I happened to notice in the Skyways magazine an advertisement for personalized handwriting software. You just write each letter of the alphabet and a few combinations on the sheet and mail it off to them. I think it cost something like 99 dollars. They send you back software that will allow you to print letters in your "own" handwriting. Far be it for me to suggest that someone would trace letter from Noonan's handwriting on to the form. Send it off (under a different name) for the software that would enable them to draft and print messages in his handwriting. Then using suitable paper, trace the desired message using appropriate ink. I don't know about where you'd get the paper from that era. But Pen magazine does have articles about old ink that some collectors acquire. We've unfortunately entered an era in which forging and altering documents & photographs has become technically feasible. Even for amateurs. Regret being excessively skeptical. Hope that scientific and historical analysis will resolve the question. Warren ********************************************************** I don't think you're being excessively skeptical at all. Ric ============================================================ Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:15:24 EST Subject: letter in bottle From Ann Looked at Mr.Tennant's website and several thoughts keep running through my mind.Was the bottle ever seen and/or examined as to age,type,duration in the elements,etc.Also,I wonder where Noonan was as he was writing the note...and where was Amelia at the time.How long would it have taken the Electra to sink.Somewhere I've read that the plane had a small life raft and flare gun on board when it departed Lae. Ofcourse operating the inflation of a raft,let alone trying to find it after a crash, and flare gun would be no easy matter in a sinking aircraft.I realize that there are no 100% sure answers to these questions(yet). Oh,by the way,I've sent in my dues for Tighar membership.I don't want to miss a minute of these very interesting,informative,thought provoking discussions and findings. Sincerely,Ann **************************************************************** From Ric: Thanks Ann. I've seen no information about the bottle. The opinon of supposed experts at the time was that, with all those empty fuel tanks , the Electra would float "indefinitely." We actually had some calculations run by Oceaneering International in 1991. There were 12 individual fuel tanks aboard NR16020 - three in each wing and six in the cabin. If all the tanks were empty and intact, the 7,000 lb (empty weight) airplane would be 1,200 pounds buoyant. Damage to one, or even all, of the tanks in one wing should not be sufficient to sink the airplane. We have no inventory of the Electra prior to the Lae departure. We do, however, have an excellent and very thorough inventory of the airplane which was performed after the Hawaii accident on March 20, 1937. That flight was also supposed to go to Howland Island. No life raft was carried on that trip but some individual inflatable life vests were aboard. The flare gun was aboard but there is an account that she left it in Lae. The letter was supposedly written eight minutes after impact. Is that what you would be doing eight minutes after impact? Ric =============================================================== Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:18:22 EST Subject: a few tons of salt From Rebecca Little You're right "Bfrivet"--the man got most of his information from people whose ideas about the disappearance have been disproven, such as Fred Goerner and Thomas Devine. I don't know about you, but I'll take whatever Mr. Tennant says with, as Mark Twain said, "a few tons of salt." This is sort of off the subject, but I found some articles on Amelia and Fred's disappearance in several old issues of "Time," in the library at the college I attend. I thought it was really interesting to see how the journalists of the day reported the incident and the search. They didn't know just how close they were to the truth in their speculations on what had happened. The dates of the articles are as follows (they didn't really list them by title in the index, just subject): DISAPPEARANCE: *Search for a missing AE (12 July 1937) *Still missing, career of AE (19 July 1937) *Search abandoned (26 July 1937) *Reward offered for AE (2 August 1937) *Fortean Society Article on "murder" of AE (27 September 1937) OTHER: Honolulu--California flight (21 January 1935) Thanks for your time--I'm new to this forum and am really enjoying it. Sincerely, Rebecca Little ============================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:38:31 EST Subject: What was aboard? From Don Jordan Again I find information in my local paper that you might not have. In the July 3, 1937 issue of my local paper there is this quote about the Earhart search; ...they had taken along a large supply of rations...enough to last several weeks" "Also aboard was a rebreather which manufactures drinking water from human breath." "A two man rubber raft, flares and a orange kite to be sent aloft in case of emergency were also aboard" I could FAX these articles to you if you like. Don Jordan *************************************************************** Thanks Don. I'd like to see the article. The fax number here is (302) 994-7945. On July 3rd (or more accurately, July 2nd when the article was written) no newspaper could possibly have had information about what was aboard the aircraft for the Lae takeoff. What little information did come out only appeared weeks later. After reviewing many articles written at the time of the disappearance, we've found that in most cases the papers went back for information to the orgy of publicity that preceded the first attempt in March. After the embarrassment of the Hawaii wreck, AE was much less forthcoming with information as she prepared for the second attempt. Consequently, much of what "everyone knows" about how the airplane was set up is not necessarily accurate. For example, all of the descriptions and cutaway views of the elaborate navigator's station installed in the back of the cabin are based upon Manning and Mantz's preparations and modifications of the airplane for the first attempt. Mantz, of course, was primarily a stunt pilot, while Manning was an accomplished nautical navigator, ham radio operator and amateur pilot. For AE's part, her navigation on past flights had been purely dead reckoning and pilotage. In short, no one involved in the preparation had any real practical experience in long-distance celestial/radio aerial navigation. Noonan, who at least had the celestial part mastered, was not involved in the first attempt until only days before departure. The result of all this was a tendency to over-equip the airplane. Earhart had taken a lot of flak for her 1935 Hawaii to California flight which was denounced by many respected aviation figures (such as Al Williams) as a pointless stunt (which, frankly, it was). She was therefore pushing the world flight as a scientific endeavor. The Electra was described as a "Flying Laboratory" in which AE would perform experiments concerning pilot fatigue and gather specimens of air from the upper atmosphere during the flight. The truth was that the Electra was simply a current production airliner which had been modified to carry a whole lot of gasoline. The only really remarkable thing about the contemplated world flight was that it would be done in a land plane rather than a flying boat. Today we tend to forget that in 1937 it was possible to travel completely around the world by commercial airliner and, in fact, several journalists did just that to make the point. The point of all this is, when we attempt to figure what was actually aboard the airplane when it left Lae we have to be careful to sort out the facts from the hype. Unfortunately, there is a lot more of the latter than there are of the former. Ric =============================================================== Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:40:47 EST Subject: Letter in bottle From George Very interesting. Is there any way of determining the age of the paper or pencil writing? The handwriting itself is unique and should be relatively easy to identify. Has a handwriting expert been consulted? And what about the bottle. Has it been identified as being something that was available in 1937 and was it known whether or not Amelia and Fred carried aboard any supplies that used this type of bottle? I don't have any answers, but I thought I'd pass along some questions that came to mind. George ============================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:53:50 EST Subject: The McGill Message From Randy Jacobson The McGill message is one of the more humorous messages sent by radio amateurs. When one reads the full text, it becomes fairly apparent that this was a radio hoax. The full text of a message delivered by the San Francisco Coast Guard to the Itasca on July 3, 1937 at 1840 GMT (1040 local time in California) was: FOLLOWING FOR WHAT IT MAY BE WORTH QUOTE FOLLOWING RECEIVED BY TELEPHONE FROM MCGILL AMATEUR STATION W6CHI OAKLAND CALIFORNIA QUOTE AT 0655 HEARD CALLS SOS ON ABOUT 86 METERS POINT TWO TWENTY FIVE NNW WEST OF HOWLAND ISLAND ASK PUTNAM TO FLY KITE UNQUOTE MCGILL TRYING CONTACT EARHART AND WILL FORWARD FURTHER INFORMATION AS RECEIVED UNQUOTE ************************************************************** From Ric: Thanks Randy. Hmmm, no mention of NRUI in McGill's message. Don, is this different from what your newspaper article says? ============================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:29:26 EST From Don Jordan Subject: McGill's Goof Ric wrote: > Thanks Randy. Hmmm, no mention of NRUI in McGill's message. Don, is this > different from what your newspaper article says? ************************************************************** Yes, very different. It is a completely different message. The reference to a "Kite" is logical also. A Kite is mentioned in one of these messages and could be sent aloft as a distress signal. I would think that each newspaper would put their own "Spin" on a story. MY articles came from The Merced Sun Star, July 1937 issue. But if they were all a hoax...how would anyone know the call sign for the Itasca,"NRUI so early in the search. I will fax copies to your FAX number and in the next few days, I will check some other large papers in the central California area. Don ******************************************** From Ric: Don Jordan was kind enough to fax me a copy of the July 6, 1937 newspaper article which describes Mr. McGill's alleged reception of a distress call from the lost Electra. The wire service story datelined San Francisco says, in part: "...Miss Earhart's husband, George Putnam, fighting to keep up his courage, was buoyed by a report from Charles McGill, Oakland radio amateur, that he picked up at 6:35 a faded voice message on 3105 kilocycles, one of the missing planes frequencies. McGill said the voice was so weak he was unable to distinguish whether it came from a man or woman. 'NRUI,' the voice spelled out tiredly, according to McGill. 'KHAQQ, KHAQQ -SOS, SOS - KHAQQ.' KHAQQ is the radio call of Miss Earhart's plane. McGill said he didn't know what 'NRUI' meant. '281 North Howland,' the voice continued. 'Cannot hold out much longer. Drifting slowly northwest. We above water. Motor sinking in water. Very wet.' Coast Guard headquarters were skeptical of the message's authenticity" And no wonder. Just the day before the press had reported the reception of a very similar message by U.S. Navy Radio on Oahu. That message was sent in poorly sent Morse code and was made up of the fragmented phrases: "281 NORTH HOWLAND CALL KHAQQ BEYOND NORTH DON'T HOLD WITH US MUCH LONGER ABOVE WATER SHUT OFF" This very cryptic message is perhaps the most credible of all the alleged post-loss messages and was interpreted by the Navy as meaning that the airplane was afloat 281 miles north of Howland. The Itasca and a British steamer in the area were immediately dispatched to that location. When they got there the next day they found nothing. A radio message from headquarters brought the news that technicians familiar with the airplane were certain that it's radio could not transmit if the airplane was afloat. If the Electra was sending messages it must be on land and able to operate its right hand, generator-equipped engine to recharge the battery. In other words, standing on its landing gear. McGill's message was obviously no more than a fanciful elaboration on the earlier and widely reported message. But the clincher is his contention that the voice said NRUI. While it is true that NRUI was the Itasca's call sign, it is also true that the ships radio logs of the inflight transmissions from Earhart make it very clear that she never referred to the ship by that call sign but spoke its name instead. As far as knowing what Itasca's call sign was, any ham operator could look it up in a standard publication of coastal stations and ship stations known as the Berne List. Nice try Mr. McGill. Ric ************************************************************* From Don Jordan I spent the afternoon going over some microfilm of old newspapers in this area. I was absolutely amazed to find so many articles about radio signals coming from AE after July 2, 1937. And not just from Radio Amateurs. The articles I found include: On July 3rd, PanAmerican Airways radio on Makapuu Point, Hawaii reported getting a bearing on a distress call from KHAQQ. The bearing is 213 degrees True and passes within 100 miles of Nikumaroro. Wake island reported hearing the carrier on her freqs. The portable station on Howland reported hearing the calls. A radio on Baker Island reported hearing the calls. A British ship, "Moorby" 200 miles to the north heard the calls. Honolulu radio transmitted in the blind to AE, asking her if she hears the station to respond with 4 click of the mic. They heard the four clicks. There were many more reports I didn't read. I got kicked off the machine for taking too long. I will go back and make copies if you like. It seems to me there has to be something to this radio rumor stuff. Fake or not...too many people heard something. Don Jordan ************************************************************* From Ric: There were actually something over 300 post-loss radio messages reported and, as you have seen, the expectation that Earhart was alive and about to be rescued dominated the press coverage of the search. Some, and probably most, of the reported messages were either hoaxes or misunderstandings. Others are harder to dismiss. If ANY are genuine, then the Electra did not go down at sea. We have an immense file on this subject and have spent literally thousands of hours investigating the possible authenticity of various messages. The bottom line seems to be that one of two situations existed in the days following the disappearance. 1. Widespread wishful thinking combined with confusion, poor radio discipline, and a number of deliberate hoaxes resulted in an erroneous impression, even among highly skilled commercial and government operators, that transmissions were being sent from the lost aircraft. or 2. The aircraft was on its landing gear somewhere in the Phoenix islands and was sending transmissions in voice and crudely sent code. The voice transmissions were barely intelligible at best and often came through as only a carrier wave. The code signals, probably sent using the push-to-talk switch on the mic, got through only as fragementary phrases and were insufficient to enable the searchers to accurately interpret the intended information. The more credible messages stop abruptly around midnight of July 4. Ric ============================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:30:14 EST Subject: Forum Fairness From Andrew McKenna Dear TIGHARs I realize that the AE forum is a good way to exchange ideas, accelerate research, and perhaps attract new members, but I wonder about the effect of disseminating information about TIGHAR's activities freely without requiring recipients to be members. Used to be that the proceedings of TIGHAR were shared only with members through the mailing of TIGHAR Tracks. Then came the web page, and now the forum. However, it is apparent from the forum postings that there are a number of nonmembers who are actively participating, and receive updates on the latest research without having supported TIGHAR in any way. My question to the TIGHAR membership is what benefits do we expect of membership if one can get all the latest info regarding TIGHAR research and activities off the web page and the forum, without being a member? The obvious end result will be no members at all, and a huge forum mailing list. TIGHAR will have to support itself entirely on special fundraising, corporate sponsors, and marketing rights to the video clips shot on location. Is this the way that we want to go? Personally I don't think so, but I am not sure that there is any way we can avoid what may be the inevitable. Maybe the best way to stimulate interest in TIGHAR is to bulk mail the forum to 96 million email addresses..... Junk mail from Electra.NR16020.xxx.com In addition, I worry about causing ourselves research difficulty by prematurely releasing information unwittingly to those who may wish to trump our game. Who is to say that what we give out on the forum might lead others to snatch the Kanton engine (not likely I grant you) or locate dem bones in some collection before we get there. It will be very disappointing to locate the final resting place of the bones, only to arrive there and find a card indicating that two weeks ago they were signed out on permanent loan to a Dr. Fred Noonan, esteemed researcher from the Isla de Pascua University. Believe me, it could happen. Call me paranoid, but most researchers keep their small findings and methodology to themselves until they have something big to announce. Seriously, where is the organization headed? What will be the benefits of membership beyond knowing that you contributed some cash to the cause to be able to participate on the same level as those who choose not to? I don't mean to sound overly exclusive. If you are a nonmember, by all means participate, but please don't forget to become a member as well. I look forward to hearing from other forum participants, members or nonmembers. Andrew McKenna **************************************************************** From Ric: I'd like to thank Andrew for bringing up this somewhat ticklish subject. Let me add my thoughts and urge members and nonmembers alike to share their views. Our decision to give away, via cyberspace, that which had previously been obtainable only to dues-paying TIGHAR members was based upon a number of premises: 1. The ethic of the Internet is the free exchange of information for the common good. 2. TIGHAR, as a tax-exempt nonprofit historical and educational foundation, has a moral, if not necessarily legal, responsibility to disseminate whatever we learn as widely as possible. 3. On a less lofty note, the experience of other vendors of information (which is essentially what we are) is that the more you give away, the more people buy. It's counterintuitive as all get out, but book publishers, for example, have found that if they mount the entire text of a book on their website, sales of the physical book go way up. Go figure. In our case, we mount the text of TIGHAR Tracks on the website but we can't afford to mount all the neat graphics, photos and maps. Only TIGHAR members receive the physical magazine which they can hold in their hands, curl up on the couch with, and ultimately bequeath to their grandchildren. 4. Over the nearly fourteen years that we've been banging our heads against this wall, we have never been able to build a TIGHAR membership large enough to cover the foundation's operating costs out of routine renewals and donations. We've tried magazine advertising (mildly effective but hideously expensive) and direct mail (hideously ineffective AND hideously expensive) and word of mouth (plenty of words but never enough mouths). We've come to understand and accept that the TIGHAR member is a rather rare creature. He or she (we run about 60/40 he) is well-educated, is in an upper-middle income bracket or higher, is very likely to be self-employed or in a senior management position, and has a longstanding interest in history and probably (but not necessarily) aviation. Oddly enough, less than 20 percent of TIGHAR members hold a pilot's license but more than 60 percent have at least some post-graduate university credits. We decided that the answer to building the membership base might be to stop preaching exclusively to the choir and reach out to all those bright and interested people out there who are TIGHAR members and just don't know it yet. The website, and especially the Earhart Forum, are the most efficient ways we've found to do that. The website is visited by roughly 800 people each week. Right now this forum reaches about 200 people and is growing at the rate of two or three new subscribers a day. I have been tremendously pleased and impressed by the quality of the postings and the intelligence of the questions and comments. We're already seeing a marked increase in new memberships as subscribers want to become a part of, and not just a spectator to, the history that is being made. As for concerns about someone using our published research to beat us to a big find: that's a very natural fear and one in which we've indulged ourselves from time to time. We only went public with the Canton engine story when we were quite sure that no one was realistically going to be able to check it out before we could. It's true that most scientific research projects proceed very quietly until a major discovery is in the bag. That's a luxury that comes with adequate funding, and it's one we've never been able to afford. This way is a lot scarier but we think that there is real value in conducting such a very difficult investigation in full public view. By not hiding our disappointments and embarrassments we hope we are providing a window into what scientific inquiry is really like. Finally, I do very much agree that TIGHAR members deserve recognition for having put their money where their mouth is. I'd like to suggest that when TIGHAR members post messages to this forum they include their member number with their name. I'll then open each posting with, for example: From Jane Doe, TIGHAR 01234 We're not, and we don't want to be, a secret society or a closed club. What we learn is free to all, and the more people who contribute both their brains and their dollars to our efforts, the more we'll be able to learn. I think that TIGHAR has to operate on the honor system. I wouldn't have it any other way. Ric ============================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:39:45 EST Subject: Mystery Life Raft From Kenton Spading Ann recently wrote: >Somewhere I've read that the plane [Amelia's] had a small life raft >and flare gun on board when it departed Lae. In addition to Ric's reply I would like to add the following. First though, I want to say that I DO NOT claim the following to be fact. I am only reporting what was said in the newspapers of the time. I do not know what their sources were. Indeed, Ann very well may have read this somewhere. ************************* The life raft story was reported in the Honolulu Star Bulletin on July ??, 1937. I quote: "Miss Earhart and Mr. Noonan have a rubber life boat and belts with which they might survive for some time if the plane sank." Later on July 6, 1937 the Bulletin said: "Raft found in Hawaii was not that of AE: since the one [she] bought was a two place yellow raft bearing only the name of Air Cruisers, Inc.. The raft found on Hawaii (Big Island) had other markings. It was also chocolate brown in color and bears a red oval label on the inside with a trademark "J. Lansing Callan, Aircraft, The boat in the bag, Hammondsport, N.Y." Credits.......I believe the above info was first dug up by Randy Jacobson. I have a copy of Randy's information/research. LTM Kenton Spading St. Paul, MN =============================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:02:19 EST Subject: Re: Forum Fairness From Susan I am disabled, and unable to pay the cost of a subscription, because social security pays very little, and my pension won't kick in until I am 65. I really appreciate the WEB page and the forum, since I can be a part of the search for someone who has meant a lot to me over the years. I do plan to try to contribute a little as I can towards the cost. There may be others like me who are in similar situations and for whom the forum is a marvelous opportunity to be involved. Susanb14@aol.com =============================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:06:51 EST Subject: Re: Forum Fairness From: Dave I am not a member of Tighar, but as Rick said, am probably a member and do not know it because I subscribe to the forum , recently contributed my $100.00 to the Canton engine search, and know I will contribute more in the future as the search continues. By subscribing to the forum I am obviously very interested and since subscribing feel obligated to contribute to the cause. In return I receive the latest updates and discussion without having to wait for Web site updates or a monthly magazine. I can also input my thoughts. In today's fast paced world, why wait for a monthly magazine when the information is available NOW? By opening the forum to the masses, I'm sure that many others such as myself will become honorary donation contributing Tighar members and Ric's forum efforts will more than payoff! ============================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:00:51 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Noonan Letter (not) It is my opinion that the letter known as the Noonan Document is a hoax, and not a very good one at that. The most obvious discrepancy is the handwriting. Existing copies of sentences (as opposed to navigational notations) known to have been written by Noonan are all in a casual but legible cursive hand and are written in pen. Photos of Noonan taken during the world flight show him with a Parker pen in his shirt pocket (identifiable by the characteristic arrow motif of the clip). The letter found in the bottle is crudely printed in pencil. The two styles could hardly be more different. Several factual errors also betray the hoax. For example, the reference to "the starboard gas tank" shows that the hoaxer was unaware that the Electra had three fuel tanks in each wing plus another six tanks in the cabin. A ditching should not have ruptured any of the wing tanks, but even if it did, the effect would be insignificant and would certainly not cause the aircraft to sink. Also, the good luck bracelet he says he just saw was left in New Guinea. Equally as damning as the factual errors is the melodramatic tone of the letter. Noonan was an educated professional whose only known comment about Amelia was made in a note he wrote to his wife during the world flight. He said he liked Amelia because she worked as hard as a man. It is inconceivable that the worshipful, vaguely prurient sentimentalities expressed in the letter in the bottle could have been written by Noonan. I'd sooner believe that Chuck Yeager speaks in iambic pentameter. I have expressed these opinions to Mr. Tennant along with other critical points that I can't discuss here without violating the nondisclosure agreement. I have advised him to make the letter public because it has no value other than as an interesting example of the sort of fiction that the Earhart disappearance has inspired over the years. Ric =============================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:04:15 EST Subject: Life raft From Ann I believe that I am probably the Ann who wrote mentioning the life raft.I thank the forum member who took note of this and sent on further info. This is very much appreciated and helpful. In fact,I believe that I gathered that a life raft was on board from reading The Sound of Wings by M.Lovell. I wish to conclude by saying that being a forum member has prompted me to send my Tighar membership dues in. Ann *********************************************************** From Ric Thanks Ann. We received your membership material on Saturday. You are now TIGHAR member 2101. You'll be receiving your hard copy of TIGHAR Tracks, your membership card, and window sticker soon. Ric =============================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:08:50 EST Subject: Forum fairness From Don Jordan I received the information from your office today and what a surprise. I was very impressed with its quality. Forum, or no Forum I would have become a member anyway. And in fact did... It's going out in todays mail. As for a members only Forum, I disagree. Is the object of this group to solve the mystery, or have a group of nice people in a club talking to one another and keeping all the information to themselves. Maybe I'm not saying what I mean! There is more to TIGHAR than Earhart! There is also much more technology at our disposal today than there was in the 30's, or for that matter...10 years ago. I think it would be a mistake not to use any means possible to get information, and to consider any bit of information. Who knows what is fact and what is rumor. The Internet is probably one of the best tools available for gathering information. This Forum is being read world wide. Who knows....maybe a school kid in New Guinea had a Grandfather who was involved with AE and left her some things...papers maybe. And she never even heard of Earhart until she ran across this Forum. Just my 2 cents.....My checks in the mail! Don Jordan ************************************************************** From Ric: What can I say? This is great! Thank you. =========================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:39:42 EST Subject: Re: Forum Fairness From Russ Cherry From my perspective you are on the right track. The forum provides you with a network of interested people with their own networks. This networking is exponential. Membership dollars help but the search for AE truely needs ideas, referrals and suggestions. You have a world wide resource at your fingertips with unlimited draw. I truly doubt few people do a web search for AE info without a sense of mystery and interest in finding an answer. When funds run short and you need money use the net to spread the word. I believe it will come. From my standpoint I wouldn't spend anything more on mailing or postage. The forum is the tool to use from now on. A closed society is not what the search needs at this crucial time. Keep up the great work. An answer, one way or another, is probably near. Russ Cherry Captain, USCGR Annandale, VA =============================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:08:57 EST Subject: TIGHAR membership From Mike Ruiz; TIGHAR 2088 To all you forum subscribers; TIGHAR membership, as Ric said, entitles you to a TIGHAR Tracks subscription. And this is a first class magazine, folks. Great pictures, fantastic articles, I have studied mine carefully. It is a first class, high quality, glossy finished product that, if you have any interest in historic aircraft (and, by the way, Amelia), you have to have. I read TIGHARS's homepage for over a year, and wish I had joined sooner when I got the subscription. The pictures make TIGHAR Tracks worth having. You get a good feel for what TIGHAR's expeditions are like, (a picture is worth a thousand words, remember...) and as far as the Amelia investigation, the Nikumaroro photos really give you a good idea as to what TIGHAR is up against in this on-going investigation. And no, folks, I have never met Ric, and am not his salesman. As a matter of fact, Ric may wish he had never sent me TIGHAR tracks because me and my work colleagues have formed a fairly tough analysis squad and are continually pestering Ric with questions that are increasingly detailed (sorry Ric). Also, what Ric did not mention (Kanton lag?) was that, as a TIGHAR member, you receive discounts on a host of TIGHAR publications, including the Amelia Earhart Project Book and Anthology. These particular documents are being updated now, but when they are ready, you can bet I'm getting my copies. By TIGHAR opening up the Amelia forum, we can all jump in. By being a TIGHAR member, and having diagrams, photos, and world of detail, you can become a part of the Amelia and other exciting investigations. It's a big difference folks. Ok, Ric, here comes another message with tough questions........... =============================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:15:10 EST Subject: Re: Forum Fairness From Dean A. I believe the forum gets the "word" out to more people and is a good thing.I think what has been posted is very insightful and more importantly possibly useful in the search. Keep up the good work. Dean A. (Tighar member- just can't remember what it is off hand--maybe Ric can dig it up for me ! ) *********************************************************** From Ric: If that's Dean Alexander you're TIGHAR 1891C. =============================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:17:44 EST Subject: Mystery Raft From Randy Jacobson, TIGHAR 1364 Without accessing my data files for exactitude, I believe the mysterious life raft washed ashore in Hawaii i 1938, not 1937, and at the time was thought to be from Amelia Earhart. =============================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:20:34 EST Subject: Re: Mystery Raft From Randy Jacobson, TIGHAR 1364 After checking my files, I have found the reference, a newspaper clipping in the various scrapbooks kept by George Putnam, now at the Purdue Library Special Collections. It was dated October 7, 1937. Based upon the currents in the Pacific, it is highly unlikely that the raft would float from anywhere reasonably close to Howland to Hawaii, as the currents in and around Hawaii are generally to the southwest, implying a source area to the northeast. ============================================================ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:03:30 EST Subject: Tough Questions QUESTIONS from: Mike Ruiz (TIGHAR 2088) ANSWERS from Ric QUESTION: Were you able to communicate with Kanton prior to your trip? ANSWER: No. The only communication with Kanton is via HF radio from either Tarawa or Kiritimati (Christmas Island). QUESTION: If so, did you have the potential site visually checked before deciding to make the trip? ANSWER: The Gilbertese are wonderful people but, based upon our previous experience, we had no confidence that we could get (through a third party) an evaluation of the dump site that we could rely upon. As an example, when we first at landed at Kanton we asked the Chief of Police and the Customs Inspector if they knew of a junkyard of metal debris off the end of Runway 27. Their response was "Yes, we can show you some places." One such place turned out to be Bruce's bulldozed dump but they did not recognize it as having been bulldozed. In other words, useful communication about the site was not really possible even when we were trying it face to face. QUESTION: What equipment did you take to handle extraction and placement of the engine on the Gulfstream? ANSWER: Thirteen strong backs and weak minds. We knew that if the engine was intact we would not be able to lift it up into the airplane, but then, it wouldn't fit through the door anyway. If it was broken down enough to fit into the airplane it would probably be light enough to muscle it aboard. QUESTION: Why did you decide to make the Kanton trip in Feb. 98? Niku III (Feb 97) lessons learned indicate seasonal weather problems in that area. Did this not complicate your search and Niku photo run? ANSWER: We had been trying to figure out some way to get a team to Kanton since June of last year. The only thing that made this trip possible was the availability of Palmyra as a refueling point. Palmyra only opened up two months ago and we only found out about it last month. Palmyra will close down again to outside traffic next month. It was go now, or don't go. Yes. The weather was a problem. It made our stay on Kanton uncomfortable but it did not effect the results of the expedition in any way other than as one factor in our decision not to try to overfly Niku (the other factor was a shortage of fuel which may have cvaused to cancel that part of the trip anyway). Bottom line: No regrets. I'd make the same call again. QUESTION: Did you check the Lockheeds on Kanton for possible matches to evidence found on Niku? (Particularly artifact 2-2-V-1). ANSWER: We saw no aircraft wreckage of any kind on Kanton except for badly mangled shards of aluminum in the bulldozed areas and an occasional component (an aileron, fuel tank, etc.) laying about. Everything we did see was quite obviously from very large aircraft. QUESTION: Cats Paw heel: Do you know if Biltrite/Cats Paw were military issue/ Could the Loran bunch have had Cats Paw heels in their inventory? ANSWER: The Cat's Paw brand was, and is, exclusively a replacement product and is sold only to commercial shoe repair shops. It was never military issue. QUESTION: Any thoughts on how the Gilbertese could have cut straight lines on plexiglass? ANSWER: With a hacksaw blade and a straight edge. We're not talking about neolithic tribes here. These guys were British colonial subjects who were provided with good tools and had the skills to use them. QUESTION: Calculations indicate a significant weight discrepancy on the Electra (details will follow separately). Did they have 1100 or 1151 gallons of fuel? ANSWER: Not sure what weight discrepancy you mean but both of the knowedgeable contemporaneous accounts (the Collopy letter and the Chater report) agree that the fuel load at takeoff from Lae was 1100 U.S. gallons. Bureau of Air Commerce paperwork on the airplane leaves no doubt that the total fuel capacity of NR16020 was 1151 U.S. gallons. The Chater report explains that they went out roughly 50 gallons short because they did not want to dilute the half tank of100 octane fuel they had in a 102 gallon tank. They used 100 octane only for takeoff. The other tanks held the commonly available 87 octane. No 100 octane was available in Lae. QUESTION: Are you involved with Elgen Long? We notice his picture on TIGHAR tracks. What is this 10,000 foot/unconscionable fuel burn rate comment he made about some mountain range. We don't see a mountain range on our maps. ANSWER: I consider Elgen to be a fine gentleman and personal friend, but I am professionaly involved with him only in an adverdsarial sense. I don't recall ever running his picture in TIGHAR Tracks. Elgen Long is the patron saint of the crashed-and-sank school. To put AE in the water near Howland he needs the airplane to burn fuel much faster than it should have. To do that he postulates a climb over a mountain range on (I think) New Britain. Doesn't make any sense to me either. QUESTION: The black sextant box with numbers. Can we corroborate? ANSWER: It's the sexant that was assumed to have been painted with black enamel. Not the box. We've done a ton of research on this and have more to do. The quick and dirty on it at this time is that, after examining something over 500 sextants in museums around the world, the ONLY sextant box we've found with numbers written on the outside contains a 1919 Ludolph of Bremerhaven nautical sextant painted with black enamel. The box found on the island had 3500 stenciled on it. This box has 3547 hand-written on it. The Ludoph is in the collection of the National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola. It was presented to the museum by a former Pan Am pilot and naval officer who certified that he had borrowed it from Frederick J. Noonan. QUESTION: We are struggling with the sonar search. If a schooner at 2,500 feet and the door of a Pan Am 747 can be found, why didn't the sonar search show anything? Or did it? How deep is the water around Nikumaroro? ANSWER: Yeah, I know... if they can put a man on the moon..... The underwater environment off Niku is very difficlut for the deployment of sonar. The reef drops off very steeply so you're not searching a flat bottom but must fly the sonar fish at an angle along the cliff face. Less than a quarter mile from the reef edge the water is 2,000 ft deep and it keeps going down from there. Our time was limited and the island is about ten miles in circumference. Our sonar survey was done with sufficient resolution to pick up an intact airplane but not a busted up airplane. We did not find a D6 Caterpillar bulldozer that the Coast Guard lost over the reef edge in 1944, probably because we could not search close enough in to the edge. QUESTION: What islands did the Colorado search? Were any of them inhabited? ANSWER: Aircraft from the Colorado flew over all of the islands of the Phoenix Group but put no one ashore on any of them. The entire search was carried out in three days. At that time only Hull was inhabited, although there had recently been some workers on Sydney planting coconuts. There were also two British radio operators on Canton. QUESTION: When will Earhart Companion /Project books be ready? ANSWER: Gotta get the new TIGHAR Tracks written first. I'm shooting for May 1 for the updated Project Book and Companion. QUESTION: We will assess flotation of the 10-E as well/guess not for long. COMMENT: If you need fuel system info let me know. QUESTION: We understand a P&W R-1340 should be identifiable regardless of external condition. ANSWER: Yes, but the tricky part will be identifying it as definitley one of Earhart's if the data plate is gone (as it almost certainly would be). Supposedly the crankshaft was seperately serialed and P&W records could match it up with the engine it went into. Ric =============================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:26:04 EST From: Ron Dawson Subject: Chinese message I'm new to the Forum. Ric - one of the things that might keep me from discounting the Japanese/Saipan connection is the reported message sent via the State Dept. to GP in 1945 r.e. being liberated from the internment camp. Has there been any satisfactory explanation of this? Would appreciate your comments. Thanks, Ron Dawson El Paso, TX *************************************************************** From Ric: (This is a reprint of a posting I made to the old Nat'l Geographic Earhart forum) For those who may not have heard about this incident: Several years ago ( I'm not sure exactly when) a woman named Patricia Morton was doing Earhart research at the National Archives and stumbled upon a telegram dating from 1945 which contained a whole list of messages to friends and relatives from internees at a recently-liberated camp in China. One was addressed to Mr. G.P. Putnam 10042 Valley Spring Lane North Hollywood, California The text reads: Following message received for you from Weihsien via American embassy, Chungking: Camp liberated; all well. Volumes to tell. Love to mother (*). The (*) is explained at the bottom as meaning signature omitted. The State Department forwarded the message to Putnam via SpeedLetter (a type of quick-notice letter) sent on August 28, 1945. The letter is signed by: Eldred D. Kuppinger Assistant Chief Special War Problems Division Although the photo of the document appearing in Mr. Brink's book includes a notice that it was reproduced at the National Archives, it has no stamp to indicate that it was ever classified, nor does it have a stamp indicating that it was ever de-classified. Anyone who has ever obtained formerly classified documents at the National Archives knows that they're real careful about that. I see no indication that the document was ever classified. That's hardly surprising given the explanation of what a SpeedLetter is which appears in the upper right corner of the document; "This form of communication is used in the interest of speed and economy. If a reply is necessary, address the Department of State, attention of the Division mentioned below." In Putnam's reply he merely updated his address and asked to be notified if anything else was heard. Weihsien was not a prisoner of war camp. It was a Civilian Assembly Camp, an internment camp if you will. According to a 1995 letter by one of the American soldiers who liberated Weihsien on August 17, 1945 there were no Japanese military personnel in charge of the camp. It was run by a Mr. Izu of the Japanese Consular Service. All internees were well documented. Amelia Earhart was not there. On the 18th a general inspection was made of the camp and twelve internees were hospitalized and selected for early departure due to poor health. They were evacuated by C-47 on the 28th, the date of the telegram and the SpeedLetter. Randal Brink's book Lost Star (page 179) says that the message was a priority telegram sent by the Canadian embassy to the War Department (even though the message itself says that it came via the American embassy in Chungking to the State Department). Brink then says the State Department declassified the document and labeled the file Amelia Earhart. As noted above, I see no evidence that the document was ever classified nor do I see evidence of any file, let alone one labeled Amelia Earhart. I see a document number at the top of the SpeedLetter and I see that this message, probably like thousands of others, was handled quite routinely by the Special War Problems Division. This view is reinforced by Freedom Of Information Act request number 9105146 submitted to the Department of State by one Michael J. Ravnitsky in 1991 asking for the mandatory declassification of all records pertaining to Amelia Earhart. On January 31, 19' the State Department replied to Mr. Ravnitsky that - quote - ...no classified Department file exists on Amelia Earhart. All existing information on the subject is entirely open to the public. - end of quote. Why was such a message sent to Putnam? Sadly, it was most likely a hoax. In the years following Amelia's disappearance GP was beset by dozens of false leads and scams. Some were financially motivated. Others were apparently just cruel jokes. Whether the Weihsien message was a joke or a mistake, it's quite clear that it was not from Amelia Earhart. This telegram and the nonsense which has surrounded it in recent years has prompted those of us most involved in TIGHAR's Earhart reserach to adopt the "Love to mother" closing as a reminder to keep our objectivity and skepticism intact when evaluating any new evidence. Love to mother, Ric ============================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:40:53 EST Subject: Noonan bloodline From Andrew McKenna #1045 I found a business associate who claims that he is related to FN, but he wasn't exactly sure what the connection was. Obviously he isn't a direct decendant, but could have a common ancestor with FN. I asked him to check with his family and verify the nature of his link to FN. Should have an answer next week. How close to Fred Noonan would a relative have to be to be useful in terms of DNA analysis? Andrew McKenna #1045 Andrew McKenna ************************************************************* From Ric I was contacted the other day by a guy who claims to be a nephew. I'll be looking into that further. My understanding (and I hope somebody more knowledgable will correct me if I have this screwed up) is that mitochondrial DNA is tracable only through the female line. In other words, we need a Fred's mother, or Fred's sister, or Fred's mother's sister. or her daughter, or her grandaughter, etc. Ric ============================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:25:36 EST Subject: Cat's Paw From Tet Walston Ric, The Cats Paw soles WERE used by some military. When I was doing my flying training in Canada our boots were resoled using this brand. Is it possible that some U.S. military Bases also farmed out their repairs? Sorry to pour possible cold water on the artifacts, but that's what I knew about brand of sole. Tet Walston, ex RAF ************************************************************* From Ric I'm not sure what you're recalling, but (as far as I know) Cat's Paw made replacement heels, not soles. We've discussed the shoe situation with several veterans of Unit ', the Coast Guard Loran station on Gardner. They wore standard issue USCG shoes and when they wore out, which they did frequently on the island's coral rubble, they simply got new ones from supply. My confidence that the shoe parts we found at the site in 1991 have nothing to do with the Coasties is bolstered by a couple of other facts. 1. The shoe, according to Biltrite, was a woman's shoe. There were no women (or, as far as we know, cross-dressers) in Unit '. 2. Gallagher found what he was quite sure was part of the sole of a woman's shoe at what seems to be the same location in 1940. The Coasties didn't arrive until 1944. Ric ============================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:27:49 EST Subject: Cat's Paw From Tet Walston Ric, Add to my previous, after "sole" the words "and heel". That's what I meant to say !!!!! Tet. ============================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:42:12 EST Subject: Membership From Ann Just received my first issue of Tighar Tracks and I'm thrilled. I certainly agree that having the forum available for all is very important to the flow and exchange of information and ideas. Having Tighar Tracks in hand as a hard copy reference is an additional help. The Earhart Project is of great interest to me as I know it is to others. I would also appreciate hearing how the Midnight Ghost Project and Operation Sepulchre are progressing. Thank you, Ann *************************************************************** From Ric: While we should keep the forum focused on Earhart, I will say that Project Midnight Ghost is on hold pending any new information. We've tracked an aircraft crash that we think is the White Bird to a specific region on the Avalon Peninsula of Newfoundland, but we don't have the funding to do a general search of the entire area. We need a break up there and, if we're patient, we're bound to get one. On Operation Sepulchre we have some new information about how the rumors of underground hangars got started. There will be an article in the new TIGHAR Tracks now being written. Ric =============================================================== Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:01:01 EST Subject: Re: tough questions From Warren Some observations & questions QUESTION: Cats Paw heel: Do you know if Biltrite/ Cats Paw were military issue? Could the Loran bunch have had Cats Paw heels in their inventory? ANSWER: The Cat's Paw brand was, and is, exclusively a replacement product and is sold only to commercial shoe repair shops. It was never military issue. True. However the footwear of World War II era aviators wasn't necessarily "standard issue". I'll defer to those who flew back then but from what I've heard an aviator wearing footwear that was vaguely similar to the issue item wouldn't have been challenged. They wore a variety of items that weren't "issue" to include flight jackets were "modified" with non-AAF approved logos. For some reason the senior leadership didn't think it was necessary to do a boot, watch, flight jacket or sock check before crews flew off to war . Even by today's standards most flyers can generally wear any boot that is black and doesn't blandly display a company logo. A significant number of current flyers wear HiTec boots rather then the issue flying boots. Regret that this confuses the identification issue. *************************************************************** From Ric: I agree that WWII flyers were famous for non-regulation apparel but, as I mentioned in my reply to Tet Walston, our feeling that the Cat's Paw heel is probably not of military or even wartime origin is based upon the context in which it was found. ************************************************************** QUESTION: Are you involved with Elgen Long? We notice his picture on TIGHAR tracks. What is this 10,000 foot/unconscionable fuel burn rate comment he made about some mountain range. We don't see a mountain range on our maps. ANSWER: I consider Elgen to be a fine gentleman and personal friend, but I am professionaly involved with him only in an adversarial sense. I don't recall ever running his picture in TIGHAR Tracks. Elgen Long is the patron saint of the crashed-and-sank school. To put AE in the water near Howland he needs the airplane to burn fuel much faster than it should have. To do that he postulates a climb over a mountain range on (I think) New Britain. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Question: Assuming a rapid climb to 10,000 feet would decrease the maximum range of the aircraft. Wouldn't the aircraft have regained at least some portion of that fuel economy/ range by achieving a more fuel-efficient altitude earlier? What's the estimated delta? Warren ************************************************************** From Ric: We haven't done those calculations because there is no evidence to indicate that such a climb occurred. ========================================================== Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:32:44 EST Subject: Mystery Raft From Kenton Spading, TIGHAR No. 1382CE I recently posted some info about life rafts that had been reported in some Hawaii newspapers. I made reference to an article about a life raft labelled "Air Cruisers". I incorrectly stated the date of the article as July 8, 1937. Randy J. has correctly pointed out that the article is actually dated in Oct 1937. Thank you to Randy for pointing this out. Kenton Spading ============================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:38:40 EST Subject: Re: Noonan bloodline From Gerry Sawyer Hi Ric: You're right about the mtDNA being traced through the female line. Jerry ============================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:56:30 EST Subject: Research needs From Ric To Mike Ruiz and anyone else who may be able to help. During the recent Kanton Mission we didn't get to make our aerial photo run over Nikumaroro. Tough luck. But we may be able to get the same or better information from existing imagery. We've tried before to find satelite photos of the island but the best we have come up with are a couple of normal spectrum shots taken from the Shuttle. Not much help. What we need is a full set of satelite photos which, I've been told, consists of black/white, color, false color, and magnetic (?) imagery. Analysis could possibly confirm or deny the presence of a body of metal debris in the shoreline vegetation in the spot indicated by former residents. Any thoughts? Nikumaroro, formerly known as Gardner Island, is at 4 degrees 41 minutes South latitude, 174 degrees 32 minutes West longitude. Ric =========================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:33:11 EST Subject: 1937 search veteran From Bill Moss Ric...I forget my TIGHAR number. And have received my KANTON certificate. Thanks. Since I we have a lot of new people on the FORUM I thought I would explain why I have an original interest in the Earhart/Noonan riddle. In July 1937 I was a six months out of Pensacola young Navy pilot and flew a BG-1 biplane off the LEXINGTON in the search for them. I made three or four 5 hours each flights then and like everyone else saw absolutely nothing but water. I know that the big brass's decision to search to the NW is well documented but maybe you would be interested in the mood throughout the ship of the JO's and crew. There was a ship's band that played on the hangar deck before the movies. The band leader was a guy named Ziggy. So ZIGGY's band had a singing number to the tune of "SWEET VIOLETS" ...."Oh, we are out there to look for Amelia but we don't.mind it a bit. For she's in the middle of the ocean with out a dry place to....Sweet violets, sweeter than all the roses covered all over from head to foot covered all over with .., snow,oh,oh" Get the message? RIC...I have found from long long ago a copy of one day's search plan of the LEX's airgroup which I think was representative of those days using half of the 62 planes that were aboard in relays one in the morning and one in the afternoon, each flight was 4 to 5 hrs as I remember. Would you like to have a copy? If so will send by mail. BILL MOSS ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Bill. A copy of the search plan would be a nice addition to our files. The less-than-reverent attitude you report was also the prevailing mood among the pilots on the Colorado. Lt. jg (later Capt.) Bill Short wrote a letter home to his father, the tone of which is summarized in the passage "This whole business is certainly a royal pain in the neck - not that I don't welcome the opportunity for a cruise down to this part of the world, mind you, but it's the principle of the thing. First place, I can't see it as anything but a publicity stunt. "Flying Laboratory" indeed! Even is she had been successful what would have been proven thereby except thayt she was the first woman to fly around the world? As it stands now she has only demonstrated once more that long flights over water in a land plane are foolishly dangerous." Ric =============================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:33:24 EST Subject: DNA From Ann Ric,the May 19' issue of National Geographic,Vol.181,no.5,has an interesting article about DNA.I have the issue and would be happy to send or fax you a copy if it would be of help.Please let me know. Ann *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Ann. Fax number here is (302) 994-7945 =============================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:45:15 EST Subject: Research needs From Michelle Blankenship Ric, Have you seen the USGS Global Land Information System website regarding satellite/aerial photographs? http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/nfwebglis Michelle Blankenship ************************************************************* From Mike Ruiz Ric: I will find out what we have available. Mike ************************************************************* From Peter Boor Ric: Imagery in the infrared might work too. PMB. ************************************************************** From Warren Suggestion. To avoid reinventing the wheel we take advantage of other researchers work in this area. Contact the folks at the first two-web site listed below. Since these archeologists have found their way through the bureaucratic maze and obtained imagery for other locations they could be helpful. The third link is to the magazine Archeology. A letter requesting assistance in their publication may prove fruitful. http://eleftheria.stcloud.msus.edu/arsc/about.htm http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mjff/homepage.htm http://www.he.net/~archaeol/index.html I suggest that you also contact the folks at NIMA. A friendly e-mail explaining why we'd like imagery of the island may open a few doors. FOIA requests are a backup but I usually find that asking for a favor works better then demanding. PS:One technical note. Of all the possible types of imagery the most useful would be SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) taken by an aircraft. I don't know how you'd get the darn stuff for such an out-of-the-way island. (Never hurts to know what to wish for) I just pass that along because when archeologists have been able to convince NASA obtain SAR imagery of other historical sites it's been extremely useful. SAR is much better at identifying scars, anomalies and disturbances in the terrain then 10-meter resolution satellite imagery. Warren http://164.214.2.59/nimahome.html --- NIMA PUBLIC HOME PAGE **************************************************************** From Ric: Thanks everybody. Good suggestions. Ric ============================================================ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:00:48 EST Subject: Canton/Kanton From Richard Strippel Why do you keep misspelling Canton? *********************************************************** From Ric When we refer to Canton Island in an historical context we use the old spelling - Canton. When we refer to the island in a present day context we use it's current correct name as part of the Republic of Kiribati - Kanton. We do the same with Gardner/Nikumaroro. Ric ============================================================ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:09:54 EST Subject: Cat's Paw From Mike Ruiz Ric, What about civilians working on the Loran station? Love to mother. *************************************************************** From Ric No civilians. The station was constructed by USCG Construction Detachment D (Unit 211) comprising 8 officers and 130 enlisted men. It was staffed by Unit 92 comprising 1 officer and 25 enlisted men. Ric =============================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:15:26 EST Subject: DNA From Susan Someone who has time and sufficient understanding could go through Index Medicus, or use the online Galaxo service: http://www.helix.com/ to look up mitochondrial DNA and get printed copies. I have briefly looked on Helix. There are 474 pages of listings, and a hard copy can be requested from them for money. The human genome group might have someone who would be interested enough to help you out with this. Unfortunately I don't know anyone who works there. Susie ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks (gulp). =============================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:23:04 EST Subject: 1937 search From Sandy Ah, resentment lives on... It certainly stands to reason that finding Amelia & Fred was not a dominant theme.. A bit of a "ho-hum" search effort, it seems. In my mind, it provides more credence to the possibility of a ~survived~ landing. They were out there; it's just that no one made much effort to look. It's sad, indeed to think they were abandoned... ...check's in the mail, Ric. Sandy ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Sandy. Let's not be too hard on the 1937 searchers. While the prevailing attitude may not have matched the modern day reverence with which Amelia is held, there is nothing in the historical record to suggest that they didn't do the best job they could given the limitations and confusion of the time. Soldiers and sailors always gripe, but those guys risked their necks flying single-engined airplanes over vast stretches of ocean on a mission that could hardly be characterized as vital to national defense. Ric ============================================================ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:57:53 EST Subject: 10,000 feet From Randy Jacobson, TIGHAR 1364 The cause of Elgen Long's hypothesis for flying at 10,000 feet has to do with the Chater Report, which documents all of Earhart's transmissions to Lae, New Guinea after take-off. Eric H. Chater was the General Manager at Lae for Guinea Airways Limited. Quoting from his report..."The Lae operator heard the following on 6210 KC - 'Height 7000 feet speed 140 knots' and some remark concerning 'Lae' then 'everything okay'. The plane was called and asked to repeat position but we still could not get it. The next report was received at 3.19 pm on 6210 KC - 'height 10000 feet position 150.7 east 7.3 south cumulus clouds everything okay'. The next report receibed at 5.18 pm 'position 4.33 south 159.7 east height 8000 feet over cumulus clouds wind 23 knots". The 10,000 foot elevation comes from the second position report, but that location is obviously in error: 7.3 south is 0.3 degrees south of Lae!, and 150.7 east does not make sense considering time of flight within any reasonable bounds close to 3 PM Lae time. Earhart did have to fly over New Britian, but I have examined a topographic map of the island, and her flight path passes right through a low-lying (<1000 foot) wide path through two major mountain ranges, and would have been an easy navigational "fix" to home in on. Earhart's other messages suggest flight paths at considerable heights, but well within her operating envelope. Of course, considering the partial messages received, the erroneous position report, it is not clear that much credance can be given to these heights. Cheers to all! Randy Jacobson, TIGHAR #1364 ************************************************************* From Ric Let's also remember that Kelly Johnson's recommendations for best fuel economy called for a climb to 8,000 ft in the first hour of flight and a further climb to 10,000 ft after the first 10 hours. In short, a climb to 10,000 ft was always anticipated and is no big deal. I'd like to recommend that all of us accept, for the purposes of these discussions, that the Earhart flight arrived in the vicinity of Howland Island more or less on schedule with enough fuel remaining so that the aircraft could have reached Gardner Island. Our hypothesis is based upon that premise. Our efforts should focus upon determining whether sufficent evidence exists to establish conclusively whether or not the flight did end at Gardner. To maintain our focus on potentially productive lines of inquiry, I'm going to bounce back proffered postings about whether or not AE was a "good pilot" and whether an unverifiable message heard by a ham operator might have been authentic, etc. Such speculation is interesting, but our purpose is to find real answers to some very difficult questions. Ric =============================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:05:13 EST Subject: Research needs From Fred Madio Ric, I ran across this web site this morning. It might a useful starting point. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mjff/homepage.htm. When I get a minute (rare these days) I'll check it out myself Regards/ Fred Madio *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Fred. Anyone else who wants to check out these various potential sources of imagery is welcome to do so. Please don't feel that I'm the only one who gets to do the actual research. Ric =============================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:12:26 EST Subject: DNA From: aa2309 You need DNA, but not necessarily mitochondrial DNA, to definitively identify skeletal remains. There are a number of people in the paleopathology society who could help, who are forensic anthropologists or forensic pathologists. If you want an example, the skeltons of the assasinated Romanovs were definitively identified recently. They would be about 30 years older than any relevant AE or Noonan remains To identify remains as Noonan's or AE's, ideally you would need a sample of their DNA for comparison. This might still be available in the form of hairs on a hairbrush, saliva remains on a stamp, old baby teeth, bloodstains, or some other sample that contained their cells. If either had surgery in the past, old surgical pathology slides might still be kept on file, and just might be useful. As long as you are not looking at mitochondrial DNA, you can use relatives to say if it is possible that they are related. Relatives in the direct line (parents, grand parents, sons and daughters) are better than "co-laterals" (bothers and sisters, etc.) =============================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:08:29 EST Subject: Research needs From Debbie Hitchens I just tried to get into the website that Fred Madio recommended (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mjff/homepage.htm) and got a message that said it was an invalid address - not sure if it's just me or what - maybe someone else will have better luck! Debbie Hitchens ============================================================ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:42:06 EST Subject: 10,000 feet From Mike Ruiz Ric, I support the groundrules however, an outside chance exists that AE and FN made Gardner without the aircraft, which is why I wanted details on Elgens comments. ============================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:09:09 EST Subject: Research Needs This in from NASA ex-Landsat Program Manager: >The USGS runs the landsat archive in Sioux Falls, MN. They have all the >land imagery in multispectral visible bands and black and white (I think). >Also EOSAT operates Landsat 5, and for a price will get a recent image. >The USGS has the older images if they exist at far better prices, and for >this purpose the older images are probably adequate. USGS has >also gotten some recently released high resolution DoD imagery, but >it may not cover that site. > >USGS phone number is 605-594-6162. >The EOSAT number to find out prices and >availability of recent imagery is 301-552-0560. > Ric, Do you want me to pursue or not/prefer not to duplicate efforts. *************************************************************** Mike, Go for it. My hands are full here with other stuff. Heck, I still need to get a snailmail notice out to all of our non-cyber TIGHARs about the results of the Kanton Mission. I did some preliminary checking on the USGS website (http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/dclass/dclass.html) and could get no hits. I suspect that coverage of good old Niku is real scarce. Ric ============================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:37:33 EST Subject: Research Needs From Susan I went to the archeology WEB site without difficulty, and looked at a lot of it. It was very interesting, but mostly is for England. I did try briefly to go to JPL, and will try later, since I have a friend who works for them. Susie ************************************************************** From Randy Jacobson. TIGHAR 1364 Good suggestions! My expertise is in geophysical prospecting, and I am a program manager at the Office of Naval Research managing programs related to sensing and surveillance of the oceanographic and near-shore environment. SAR (synthetic aperture radar) is indeed a wonderful tool, but a major drawback is that it cannot penetrate foliage. Since overhead photography to date has revealed little that is lying in the open, SAR imagery would not be terribly useful. To get the kind of resolution you want, you need to fly it in an aircraft or use a system of the government that is highly classified. One of the best new techniques now-adays is the use of multi- or hyper-spectral imagery, where narrow spectral band IR through UV bands are collected, and processed separately. By combining certain bands of energy, it becomes easy to distinguish objects that cannot be discriminated by the human eye or normal visual bands. This method also requires aircraft or satellites. Cheers. Randy Jacobson, TIGHAR #1364 ============================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:40:00 EST Subject: Ground rules From, Kenton Spading, 1382CE I agree with Mike. There is a possibility they made it to the island without the aircraft. It is also possible that they arrived in the aircraft and one or both of them left in it again. In fact, if you assume they made a successful, wheels down landing (i.e. post loss messages, running engines to generate power etc.), arguments for not taking off again to save their skin are hard to live with (is that a Pun?). Anyway, I agree with Ric. Some limits on forum posting are needed. Reasonable and, sometimes what initially seems like, unreasonable avenues can be fruitful. Kenton Spading ============================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:55:34 EST Subject: Re: DNA From Tom King, TIGHAR 0391CE OK, Susan, I'll bite. If we looked up mitochondrial DNA on Helix (on the double?), what do you think it would give us? I took my last physical anthro class before DNA was even a gleam in anybody's scholarly eye, but I thought the first things we need, regardless, are a bone and a matrilineal descendant. What am I missing? Tom King (Archeologist, Earhart Project)